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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Sarah Dowdy and I'm depleted chocolate boarding. And in

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Speaker 1: our last episode we talked a little bit about five

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Speaker 1: Roman shipwrecks off of Venta Tenne. It's kind of a

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Speaker 1: big recent archaeological find. Pretty interesting stuff there. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: looks kind of idyllic. Actually, it does look pretty idyllic, um.

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Speaker 1: But you know there's gonna be some issues as well uncover.

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Speaker 1: On this podcast, we talked about the island a little

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Speaker 1: bit itself, and it's right off the coast of Naples,

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Speaker 1: and it's where the first Roman emperor, Augustus built this

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Speaker 1: grand villa complete with spas, and he built this complex

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Speaker 1: system of cisterns to collect rainwater because there were no

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Speaker 1: natural springs on the island. And probably most importantly, he

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Speaker 1: built this harbor that transformed this remote volcanic rock into

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Speaker 1: a safe haven, a place where merchant ships could come

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Speaker 1: while they were trading throughout the Mediterranean. So it sounds good,

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Speaker 1: so far, um, But that peaceful remoteness also made Venta

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Speaker 1: Tene the perfect place to send someone that you'd never

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Speaker 1: want to see again. Yeah, it's the ideal prison yep.

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Speaker 1: Not too inconvenient for jailers, but also very isolating for

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Speaker 1: the detainees. Yeah. And there was actually eventually a prison

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Speaker 1: built on the nearby Santo Stefano Um Mussolini would lock

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Speaker 1: up his political prisoners there. But we're talking about long

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Speaker 1: before Mussolini's time. We're gonna be keeping in that age

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Speaker 1: of Augustus when Venta Tenne and the other Ponting islands

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Speaker 1: that are in the Tranean Sea right off the coast

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Speaker 1: of Italy there were used to exile the Roman elite

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Speaker 1: and get them out of Rome, get them away from

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Speaker 1: the place where they could cause trouble. And we're going

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Speaker 1: to take a look at Augustus's most famous detainey, his

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Speaker 1: own daughter and only child, Julia. Yeah. So first, in

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Speaker 1: case you're a little rusty on your Roman history, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna give you a very brief background on Augustus, who

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Speaker 1: was known as Octavius and then Octavian until twenty seven

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Speaker 1: b c. In case you've ever gotten confused over these

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Speaker 1: name changes. And he was the grand nephew and the

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Speaker 1: postumus adopted son and heir of Julius Caesar, and it's

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Speaker 1: after Caesar's murder that things started to get kind of

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Speaker 1: complicated and um. For a time he ruled as part

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Speaker 1: of a triumvirate which famously broke apart in war and

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Speaker 1: defeated Mark Anthony. Katie and I did an earlier episode

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Speaker 1: on Cleopatra's Children where we talked about the Battle of

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Speaker 1: Actium a little bit um. And eventually the future Augustus

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Speaker 1: emerges as the sole ruler of what's outwardly still a republic.

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Speaker 1: It's still a Roman republic, but it eventually transforms into

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Speaker 1: the Roman Empire, with of course Augustus at its head. Yep.

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Speaker 1: So Augustus is in charge, but then he wants to

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Speaker 1: change his image a little bit. He wanted to set

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Speaker 1: himself apart from the chaos of the wars and the

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Speaker 1: moral depravity that he saw in the republic, and so

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Speaker 1: part of his agenda for the empire was to restore

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Speaker 1: family values. Yeah, get back to some sort of golden

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Speaker 1: age as he saw it. Yep. So he passed some

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Speaker 1: laws encouraging marriage because he he believed that the population

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Speaker 1: had declined due to too many men visiting prostitutes instead

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Speaker 1: of in lieu of marriage and at the Roman Games.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that he did to encourage people

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Speaker 1: to get married at the Roman Games he um, he

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Speaker 1: gave some of the best seats at the games two

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Speaker 1: married men, which I think is a pretty good a

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Speaker 1: good perk of getting married. Um. He also rewarded fathers

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Speaker 1: of three or more children with promotions, and mothers of

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Speaker 1: three or more got a little bit more say in

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Speaker 1: property issues. Um. Meanwhile, people who didn't get married unless

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Speaker 1: they were vestal virgins or something uh started to lose

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Speaker 1: some of their rights, and he reformed all sorts of

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Speaker 1: laws that had to do with marriage too. On adultery

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Speaker 1: and engagements. Girls now had to be at least ten

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Speaker 1: years old before they got engaged. And Um. Of course,

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Speaker 1: to do all this, he wanted to lead by example.

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Speaker 1: You don't want uh hypocritical leader spousing family values. He's

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Speaker 1: not living that way. So he went as far as

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Speaker 1: to mass market his own women folk. He cast statues

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Speaker 1: of his wife Libya and his sister Octavia and essentially

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Speaker 1: distributed them throughout the empire, which was kind of an

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Speaker 1: unusual thing to do at the time for people to

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Speaker 1: get such a personal look into the emperor's own household.

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Speaker 1: But it was I don't know, just to set the example.

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Speaker 1: These are my virtuous women relatives, and uh follow their

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Speaker 1: example in mine. He also did some things like wearing

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Speaker 1: simple woolen tunics that he claimed that Octavia and Olivia

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Speaker 1: had woven. Yeah, and later that his daughter had woven,

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Speaker 1: or that his granddaughters had woven. Right. So the message

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Speaker 1: was I'm a regular guy, and that was what he

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Speaker 1: was trying to portray to the public. Yeah, that his

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Speaker 1: his women were good, virtuous weavers doing their job. And

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Speaker 1: Lvia she's kind of a master of this. Um, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, this pr branding here, that's exactly into it.

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Speaker 1: And she she played along. She definitely doesn't. I mean,

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Speaker 1: despite her reputation, she's she's good at this outward front.

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Speaker 1: She spurned wearing jewels in public and said that her

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Speaker 1: children were her true jewels. Um. But you know, is

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Speaker 1: it too surprising that augustus own personal life was kind

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Speaker 1: of a mess. I mean, I don't so she's to yeah,

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Speaker 1: give you the like the briefest rundown of what Augustus

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Speaker 1: was really involved in. Yep, divorced his wife, his second wife, Scrabonia,

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Speaker 1: just days after she gave birth in thirty nine BC

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Speaker 1: to his only child, Julia, and he already had his

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Speaker 1: third wife lined up, and that was the teenage Olivia.

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Speaker 1: And the only problem there is that Olivia was already

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Speaker 1: married to a man named Tiberius Claudius Narrow, and they

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Speaker 1: actually already had one son together. And when Augustus first

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Speaker 1: falls in love with her, she's six months pregnant with

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Speaker 1: their second child. Not a problem for Augustus, no, not

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Speaker 1: at all. He just forces Tiberius to divorce his wife

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Speaker 1: and marries her himself after she's had her baby, Drusus. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so when the elder Tiberius dies, Augustus adopts Lvia's

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Speaker 1: two sons and raises them up in his household with

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Speaker 1: his daughter and his nephew, Octavia's son, Marcus Claudius Marcellus.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds a lot like a Roman soap opera,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it. It's good things are getting pretty strange already

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Speaker 1: at this point, all right. So that tricky family history,

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Speaker 1: though unsurprisingly, brings us to a pretty tricky issue of succession.

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Speaker 1: And we have three emperors in waiting, these three boys

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Speaker 1: who are growing up in Augustus's household. There are are,

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Speaker 1: of course Livia's sons Tiberius and Drusus, and then Octavia's

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Speaker 1: son Marcellus, and Augustus conveniently has this one daughter with

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Speaker 1: which to seal the deal um. And she's already been

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Speaker 1: engaged before, so she's already been kind of used as

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Speaker 1: this political pawn from her infancy when she was engaged

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Speaker 1: to mark Antony's son Marcus Antonius and till Us, and

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Speaker 1: that engagement was obviously broken off. That wouldn't have worked out.

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Speaker 1: But by the boy's teens, Augustus takes Marcellus and Tiberius

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Speaker 1: off on campaign to show them the ins and outs

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Speaker 1: of being a general, and when he comes back, he

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Speaker 1: marries his daughter to Marcellus. Yeah, so it seems like,

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Speaker 1: even though Marcellus isn't the official air um, seems like

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Speaker 1: that's where he's headed. And he's really popular with the people.

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Speaker 1: The historians love him, and he's being fast tracked for

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Speaker 1: very high promotions at a young age, so it definitely

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Speaker 1: seems like he will be Augustus's air Yeah, everything was

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Speaker 1: looking rosie at that point. But then he dies. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he dies in twenty three BC. He's still a teenager.

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Speaker 1: And Julia is now a widow and available. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: line up, guys. Um, So she doesn't marry one of

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Speaker 1: her step brothers, which maybe you would think since they

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Speaker 1: were possibly the two prime airs at this point. Um,

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Speaker 1: she marries Marcus Vesponius Agrippa, who is already married and

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Speaker 1: a lot older. He's the trusted deputy of Augustus. And

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Speaker 1: Um he divorces his wife to marry the young Julia. Um.

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Speaker 1: If you recognize his name, if you've ever been to

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Speaker 1: the Pantheon, it's carved right there on the front. So

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Speaker 1: he's a pretty it's a pretty well known guy at

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Speaker 1: that point. And then still of course today obviously. And

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Speaker 1: they have five children together, many of them are born

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Speaker 1: while she accompanies him along on campaign. Yeah. They seem

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Speaker 1: like a pretty good They get along with each other.

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Speaker 1: They seem like a pretty good match, even though there

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Speaker 1: are some rumors of her infidelities starting by this point. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the rumors have already begun, but they're There are five

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Speaker 1: kids that they had, gayest Caesar Julia the younger, Lucius

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Speaker 1: Caesar Agrippina who was eventually Agripina the elder, and the

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Speaker 1: last one was Agrippa Posthumus who was born after Agrippa's

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Speaker 1: death and twelve BC. Yeah, and so Agrippa's death is

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Speaker 1: obviously a big deal for Julia because okay, she has

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Speaker 1: five kids, she's been twice, she's not even thirty yet. Um,

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Speaker 1: it seems like maybe there'd be a little downtime now.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, no, So as soon as this son is born,

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Speaker 1: and while she's still in mourning, Augustus marries her off again,

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Speaker 1: and this time he marries her to her stepbrother Tiberius.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we have to wonder why this marriage

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Speaker 1: is made so hastily, and part of it has to

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Speaker 1: do with Augustus's wife, Livia, who has long been pressuring

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Speaker 1: her husband to favor her own sons, and since the

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Speaker 1: younger son has recently died, this leaves Tiberius. She has

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Speaker 1: pinned her hopes on him following Augustus. Yep. And for Tiberius,

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Speaker 1: a match to the emperor's daughter would help sort of

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Speaker 1: seal the deal, what helps him and his claim to

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Speaker 1: the empire, especially since Augustus is starting to favor his

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Speaker 1: eldest grandson's Gaius and Lucius over over Tiberius. But Tiberius

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Speaker 1: is already married. That seems to happen a lot more

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Speaker 1: of this soap opera drama here. Marriage seems almost pointless

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Speaker 1: in this case, I don't know, um So, Tiberius is

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Speaker 1: already married, and unfortunately he's married to a woman that

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Speaker 1: he actually loves, weirdly the step daughter of Julia through Agrippa,

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Speaker 1: if you can work that out in your head somehow,

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Speaker 1: and Augustus forces them to divorce. So at this point

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Speaker 1: a really unhappy alliance begins between the morning Julia and

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Speaker 1: the love sick Tiberius, who is forbidden to ever see

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Speaker 1: his ex wife, who me loves again after Augustus hears

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Speaker 1: of him following her around in the streets weeping, which

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Speaker 1: has got to be the saddest thing ever. I mean,

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Speaker 1: pretty sad picture even I don't know. I think we

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Speaker 1: usually think of Tiberius because of his later reputation, but

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Speaker 1: this part is sad. Um So, this very unhappy alliance

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Speaker 1: produces one son, but he dies young in six BC,

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Speaker 1: and not long after this, there's a breakdown. It seems

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Speaker 1: Tiberius goes into voluntary eggsile, even though he's just reached

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Speaker 1: what was at this point the height of his power.

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Speaker 1: He was granted the powers of a tribune, so we

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Speaker 1: have to wonder why did he leave now, Yeah, there

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Speaker 1: are a few reasons for it. Most likely for one thing,

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Speaker 1: Augustus has allowed Julia's son Gaius to be elected console

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Speaker 1: by he's like a little kid too, Yeah, so kind

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Speaker 1: of insulting. Um. So he's elected console by the people's Assembly,

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Speaker 1: though he insists the appointment be delayed until the boy

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Speaker 1: comes of age. But still it's sort of symbolic, I guess, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it looks like Augustus is obviously favoring his grandson

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Speaker 1: over his step son, right, so that doesn't look good.

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Speaker 1: And then Julia is off making tiberius life pretty miserable

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Speaker 1: at this point, so it seems um. She had come

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Speaker 1: into the marriage with a reputation for pretty scandalous behavior,

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Speaker 1: and it seems like she's only expanded on it since then.

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Speaker 1: And by Augustus's own law, if Tiberius suspected his wife

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Speaker 1: of adultery, he's required to denounce her. But that poses

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a problem because she's the emperor's

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Speaker 1: only child and he kind of doubts on her, and too,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, to expose her in the public as

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Speaker 1: an adulteress. As an adulteress might not make Augustus very happy,

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Speaker 1: and it could possibly end up with Tiberius being in

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Speaker 1: trouble instead of Julia. So he's in a tight spot here, yep.

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Speaker 1: So he leaves for Roads, where his personality kind of

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Speaker 1: changes over the ten years that he's away before Augustus

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Speaker 1: allows him to return. It's the start of his transformation

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Speaker 1: to the Tiberius that you guys discussed back in the

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Speaker 1: Caligula episode which you mentioned. Yeah, I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: he was kind of just a um withdrawn guy before this.

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Speaker 1: But something, something kind of happens while he's gone. Um, So,

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Speaker 1: all right, Tiberius is gone, Julia is still hanging out

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Speaker 1: in Rome. When does Augustus finally get wise to what's

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Speaker 1: going on and to what his daughter's up to? Well,

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Speaker 1: despite Julia's not living up to this brand Augustus family

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Speaker 1: values brand, the perfect family family brand. He's somewhat indulgent father,

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Speaker 1: he'd tell his friends, and I think this is really funny.

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Speaker 1: He tell his friends that he had too somewhat wayward

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Speaker 1: daughters whom he had to put up with, and that

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Speaker 1: was one was the Roman Republic and the other was Julia,

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Speaker 1: so one year before Julia's son Gaias would have come

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Speaker 1: to age. In one BC, her scandal finally breaks. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it all comes out in the wash, and it's hard

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Speaker 1: to know what is true and what's the exaggeration of

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Speaker 1: the Roman historians, who are obviously inclined to exaggerate things. Um.

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Speaker 1: But Julia was accused of affairs with at least five men,

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Speaker 1: including most famous lee Julius Antonius, who is another one

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Speaker 1: of mark Antony's sons, and strangely he's the full brother

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Speaker 1: of the man who Julia is engaged to in her infancy. Um.

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Speaker 1: Because everybody in this podcast is connected and married to

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Speaker 1: each other at some point. But there worth rumors than

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Speaker 1: just these affairs. There rumors that men would lie not

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Speaker 1: to take their turn with her on the speaker's platform

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Speaker 1: in the forum, which is the same place where Augustus

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Speaker 1: had actually delivered these laws making adultry of crime. So

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Speaker 1: I mean, it seems especially terrible, more than a little

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Speaker 1: spot on your record. Definitely, several of these men who

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Speaker 1: are reportedly involved are executed, forced to commit suicide, or banished,

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Speaker 1: and by law, Julia herself should actually be executed too.

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Speaker 1: But Augustus doting father that he is really doesn't have

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Speaker 1: the heart to do this. Yeah, but he doesn't go

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Speaker 1: easy on her either. He exiles her to Pantatara, which

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Speaker 1: is later vent Atene in two b C. And uh,

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Speaker 1: she lives a pretty austere life from then on. She

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Speaker 1: has no luxuries, no wine, no male visitors, and she

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Speaker 1: lives there with her mother. Um. The people are not

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Speaker 1: happy about Julia's being exiled, though. You might think that

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Speaker 1: if they were buying into Augustus's whole new golden age,

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Speaker 1: they might look down on Julia with all these wild rumors.

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Speaker 1: But she's really popular and I like her. Yeah, she's

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Speaker 1: supposed to be witty and fun, and according to Macrobius,

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Speaker 1: they want her back. But Augustus calls her the disease

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Speaker 1: in my flesh and certainly has no intention of pitying her.

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Speaker 1: So there's some other theories about Julia also, that maybe

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Speaker 1: she wasn't just an adulteress. Yeah, maybe that was kind

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Speaker 1: of a cover up. Actually, yep. Some historians actually suggest

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Speaker 1: that Julia in trouble more for some of the political

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Speaker 1: things she was doing behind the scenes than her adultery. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The men involved in the scandal, for example, we're all

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Speaker 1: really high of the highest nobility, blue bloods yep. And

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Speaker 1: the timing was one year before her son's majority, so

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Speaker 1: it's suspicious. Yeah, it seems like the timing and the

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Speaker 1: people involved are I don't know, it's surprising. And it's

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Speaker 1: possible that Julius Antonius may have had some kind of

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Speaker 1: designs on obtaining power, and maybe this was just in

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Speaker 1: the form of regent. He may have been hoping that

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Speaker 1: Julia and Tiberius would divorce and that, since the sons

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Speaker 1: weren't quite a majority yet, Julius Antonius would rule as

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Speaker 1: some sort of regent. The only problem with that is

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Speaker 1: that it seems unlikely that Julia would have betrayed her sons,

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Speaker 1: but or her father or her father, especially if if

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Speaker 1: her sons are so clearly lined up to be her

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Speaker 1: father's heir. Yeah, it just doesn't seem to make sense.

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Speaker 1: But another theory is that she may have just considered

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Speaker 1: Julius Antonius kind of her protector, since Tiberius was off

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Speaker 1: in Rhodes and she was by herself essentially with Olivia

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Speaker 1: in the picture. Yeah, and Olivia is an important player

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Speaker 1: in this because Olivia so clearly wants her own son

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Speaker 1: to follow Augustus and had a lot of influence over Augustus,

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Speaker 1: so I can see, on the one hand, why Julia

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Speaker 1: would be a little concerned about her own son's futures.

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Speaker 1: Um So Regardless, while Julia is off in isolation on

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Speaker 1: her remote island, everything changes back in Rome and her

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Speaker 1: son Lucius dies into BC, and then Gaius is killed

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Speaker 1: in four a D. And supposedly there's a little suspicion

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Speaker 1: around these deaths. Um The same year, Tiberius is allowed

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Speaker 1: to return to Rome up finally after this law long

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Speaker 1: ten years initially self imposed exile, but hasn't been that

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Speaker 1: way for a while. Yeah, he's allowed to return, He's

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Speaker 1: reinstated to all his positions, and Augustus adopts him as

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Speaker 1: his son. That's a long time coming, definitely, and it

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Speaker 1: seems like Augustus, who has had so many possible errors

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Speaker 1: over his lifetime, has finally exhausted all his options and

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Speaker 1: he has to settle at last on this middle aged

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Speaker 1: stepson that Olivia has been pressuring him to act on

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Speaker 1: for so long. But there's one last shake up, as

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Speaker 1: Augustus adopts Postumus as a son the same year that

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Speaker 1: he adopts Tiberius, and only two years later, though Postumus

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Speaker 1: is exiled from Rome and this is possibly the designs

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Speaker 1: of Olivia. She's probably behind us. Get all of those

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Speaker 1: grandsons out of the picture. And by the time Julia's

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Speaker 1: two elder sons are dead. After five years of being

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Speaker 1: on this isolated island, her father finally allows her to leave,

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Speaker 1: but he doesn't allow her to go back to Rome. Instead,

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Speaker 1: she goes to Reggia di Calabria, which, if you are

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Speaker 1: picturing Italy in your head, it's the very tip of

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Speaker 1: the boot. And um. It's not long after that that

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Speaker 1: Augustus dies in eight fourteen, and Julia doesn't last much

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Speaker 1: longer than her father. Nope, she dies shortly after that,

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Speaker 1: starved by Tiberius, who is still her husband but technically

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Speaker 1: but emperor at that time. Yeah, and Tiberius also cleans

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Speaker 1: up any remaining family messes and has Postumus murdered, or

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Speaker 1: it's likely he hasn't murdered. That's a little sketchy too,

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Speaker 1: who exactly ordered that hit? But Tiberius's marain is it's

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Speaker 1: pretty careful. I mean, if if you're looking at just

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Speaker 1: the government side of it, he strengthened the navy, he

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Speaker 1: increased the treasury, but he descended into addness, which he's

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Speaker 1: so famous for, especially after the death of his son

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Speaker 1: and his move to Capri, which was mentioned in episode

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Speaker 1: on Caligula. Pretty disturbing stuff going on there. And it's

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Speaker 1: weird though, but Tiberius is faced with the exact same

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Speaker 1: dilemma as his stepfather, how to choose an air. Yes,

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Speaker 1: he eventually had to settle, as August diston on the

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Speaker 1: least offensive option that he had available. And uh, that

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Speaker 1: is gay as Caesar, who is nicknamed Caligula ak a

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Speaker 1: little boots and grandson of Julia. So he this is

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Speaker 1: a move that he makes right before the movement Tiberius

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Speaker 1: makes right before he is smothered to death. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: that's our dramatic end to this immediate line of family. Um,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know. I mean, I think it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that somebody with these very pro family policies and the

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Speaker 1: with this terribly disastrous personal life only kid banished, No,

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Speaker 1: you know, grandson's or dying somehow. Yeah, It's it's a

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Speaker 1: messy scene in general. So if you have any more,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, dramatic soap Opera Roman stories you want

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Speaker 1: to share with us, you can email us at History

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Speaker 1: podcast at how stuff works dot com. We're also on

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Speaker 1: Twitter at Myston History and we're on Facebook, so lots

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Speaker 1: of ways to find us. And if you're interested in

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Speaker 1: learning a little bit more about another one of Julia's descendants,

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Speaker 1: we have an article called DeNiro Really play the Fiddle

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Speaker 1: While Rome burned? Another burning history question um and you

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Speaker 1: can find that by searching for it on our home

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Speaker 1: page at www dot how stuff works dot com. For

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Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Because it

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Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. The house stuff works dot

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