1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: My attachment wounds are so deep in my mind and spirit, 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: Like I'm sort of obsessed with this guy that just 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: couldn't give to fox about me honestly sorry currently currently yeah, 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: crying about him last night. And the truth is, if 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: it wasn't him, it would be someone else. Like I 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: know this. It's like I'm aware enough to know, like 7 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: this is just like placeholder totally, Like this is a replay, 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: Like he's the most recent guy who's like re enacting 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: this abandonment story in my head and like in my history. 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: So this whole conversation, I'm like selfishly and personally very 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: excited about it. I'm hopewondered and welcome to Boysover, a 12 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: space where we're learning and unlearning all the myths were 13 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: taught about love and relationships. Anxious, avoided, disorganized, and secure. 14 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: Those are the four major attachment styles that you might 15 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: be familiar with even if you're not in therapy. I 16 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: got acquainted with these styles through TikTok videos while trying 17 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: to self diagnose my relationship patterns. Personally, I am disorganized 18 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: and while I don't know how to break free of 19 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: that attachment style yet, the first step is in identifying it. 20 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: Thanks to this podcast, I can start taking the next 21 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: step getting an expert to help me talk through it. 22 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: Our guest today is doctor Morgan Anderson. She's a clinical 23 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: psychologist and a relationship coach who specializes in attachment styles 24 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: and is here to tell us what all these labels 25 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: really mean and how we can find security in our relationships. 26 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: Doctor Morgan, Yes, welcome to boy Sober. Thank you for 27 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: having me. 28 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: Of course, I want to know when you set out, 29 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: you know your goal was to help people. Have you 30 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: always been like an attachment sort of specialist. Can you 31 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: tell me a little bit more about that. 32 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you know, all of us that find ourselves 33 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: in the world of relationships, we have a reason for 34 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 2: ending up here. 35 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: No, definitely. 36 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 2: I experienced childhood trauma. I lost my mom at age six, 37 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: Oh my god. And then I kind of watched my 38 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 2: dad go through really difficult dating experiences and ending up 39 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: in unhealthy marriages and then divorcing and getting married again. 40 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: So I saw a lot of his patterns, and then 41 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 2: of course myself when I entered the dating world. My 42 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 2: toxic relationship era started around age fifteen and did not 43 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: end until age twenty nine. 44 00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 3: And okay, see there's still time, there's still do you 45 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 3: care to tell me a little bit about that, Like 46 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 3: what happened to twenty nine that made you sort of 47 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 3: go aha, I would say, my real something has to 48 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 3: change moment actually happened a little bit earlier. 49 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 2: You know that I'm done moment people talk about. I 50 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,839 Speaker 2: was in a relationship with a narcissist for a year 51 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: and a half, went through that whole phase, you know, 52 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 2: the love Bobbie at the beginning, he's flagging me everywhere, 53 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 2: He's the perfect man. I met my person. Okay, gosh, 54 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: we all know this, We've been there, yes, And then 55 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: by the end, I was a complete shell of myself. 56 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: I was filing a police report. It got very very bad. Wow, 57 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: And I remember having this out of body experience and 58 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: thinking this can't be in my life totally, who am I? 59 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 2: I cannot have relationships like this right? So then I 60 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: knew something had to change. So then I started researching 61 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: attachment styles. At that moment, how did. 62 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: You finally sort of stand up and say, like, I'm 63 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: getting out of here. I was thinking about this today. 64 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: It's like so hard for people to truthfully leave. To 65 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: be someone who leaves is not easy. And I want 66 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: to say, like, doesn't happen more often than not. 67 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 2: It's true, on average, it takes seven times for a 68 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: woman to leave a toxic relationship. Do you want to 69 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: know why? Please? Because of intermittent reinforcement. You know about 70 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 2: this It mirrors like gambling addiction. 71 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: Oh god, no, I was literally reading about. 72 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: This last night. 73 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: I love when you said when you really were able 74 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: to sort of get out of these attachment loops when 75 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: you were twenty nine, but you had the realization a 76 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: bit earlier. It's a similar thing with me. It's like, 77 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: the inspiration of this show was I was in a 78 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: relationship with someone, but I think in all honesty, I 79 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: was the one who was a bit more chaotic and toxic, 80 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: you know, codependent. Of course, like he and I had 81 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: this dynamic where he would pick up every time I 82 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: would call, and then I would sort of leave every 83 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: time I wanted to, and it was like just that 84 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: dynamic back and forth, and I finally sort of reached 85 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: a moment where I was like, technically, I love this 86 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: person and I'm not treating them like I should treat 87 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: someone I love. And so the first sort of you know, 88 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: inspiration for giving up romance, giving up men whatever was 89 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: because I was like, I want to stop sort of 90 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: taking advantage of people who feel love towards me. I 91 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: want to be able to like love in a healthy way. 92 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: But I do think in a lot of ways. I 93 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: set out to do that by myself and it has 94 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: not worked. Okay, So me personally, I have taken the 95 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: attachment test and I got disorganized. I do that. Yeah, 96 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: based on wha you just said, I kind of want 97 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: to break down each attachment style if we can. Absolutely, Okay, disorganized, 98 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: it's kind of the worst one. I don't know. 99 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,799 Speaker 2: It is certainly the most painful and chaotic. 100 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: Like how your what's your sort of clinical description of it? 101 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is five to ten percent of the population. Okay, 102 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: childhood trauma that has been unresolved and has impacted you 103 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: over time, obviously, And one of the things I would 104 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 2: have you think about, it's anxious attachment and avoidant attachment 105 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: strategies happening at the same time, and you find yourself 106 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: pendulum swinging between the two. There's also this just absolute 107 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: fear of intimacy paired with an absolute desire for it. 108 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: What is that? That is crazy? That's like confusion, chaosity 109 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, I can feel no stability or 110 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: safety in being wanted, and it's actually exhausting. It's like, 111 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: I would like so badly to be able to feel 112 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: at ease. Yes, when someone says they care about me, 113 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: I know, so I know. 114 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 2: I can see the emotion on your face. You know, 115 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: I want to give you some hope. 116 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: I was. 117 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: I had disorganized attachment style as well, and I've helped 118 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: a lot of people with that attachment style because it's 119 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 2: the most painful, it's also the most motivating. Reframe. 120 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: I like that reframe. I love that reframe. 121 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: Yes, And I think one of the reasons it's so 122 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: painful is you adapt to whatever person you're with in 123 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: whatever way to avoid closeness. 124 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just the truth. It's like to chase someone, 125 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: usually the same person. Like something I say about myself 126 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: when I'm dating is like I like to catch the 127 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: same fish, like over and over. I get him in 128 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: my arms, he's like I like you, and I'm like. 129 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: You're crazy. 130 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: I throw through that, I throw him back. Why do 131 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: people with fearful avoidant attachment crave such deep intimacy but 132 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: feel unsafe when they get it. 133 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 2: It mirrors what they learned about love and mirrors that unpredictability. 134 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: There's desire for closeness and intimacy, but then also getting 135 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 2: too close has fears of losing their identity, losing who 136 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 2: they are. One of the things to think about with 137 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 2: disorganized attachment is this identity that feels like a chameleon, right, 138 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 2: not a strong sense of this is who I am, 139 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 2: this is what I need. You can be adaptable, but 140 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 2: then it also comes to the point where when you're 141 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 2: getting too close, it brings up fears of am I 142 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 2: going to lose myself as well? Well? 143 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: It's like something that happens for me, and I don't 144 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: know if this is just a me thing or a 145 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: disorganized attachment thing, but it's like I'll start dating someone 146 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: and then it will be like really intense emotionally, it's 147 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: just really intense and really fast, and then the three 148 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: month mark will hit and then I'll just be like 149 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: how did I get here? Like almost like how did 150 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: this even happen? Like why do I feel like your wife? 151 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: Why do I feel so claustrophobic? Why do I feel 152 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: like you don't know me? And then I get really, 153 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: I guess avoidant. 154 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 2: The anxious part of you in the beginning of that 155 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 2: relationship is self abandoning. You're not showing up as your 156 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: authentic self. You're not really expressing what your needs and 157 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: wants are. So then you're very, very emotionally invested, and 158 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: then you're going, wait, this doesn't feel good, and then 159 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: that avoidant part gets triggered and you're going, ah, distant space, 160 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 2: I'm taking a girl's trip to Mexico, leave me alone, totally. 161 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 1: My theory right now is like, Okay, if I'm celibate, 162 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: or if I remove sex from the equation, that might 163 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: keep things less intense, because I you know, inevitably I 164 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: would love to fall in love or find love or 165 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: something like. I want reciprocal like so badly. I want 166 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: to feel safe with somebody. Yeah, what's your advice there, 167 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: what's a good go to method to sort of get 168 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: a hold on this. 169 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: This is what I've dedicated my life to. 170 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, thank god you're here. They're catching me at 171 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: a perfect time for this, and. 172 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 2: You know, I do just want to acknowledge how painful 173 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: it is. 174 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy. It's like, I don't know if this 175 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: is a disorganized attachment thing. But it's like to be 176 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: a bit obsessed with the thing that hurts you so badly, 177 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: to be obsessed with the hurt What is that about. 178 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's your norm, it's your comfort zone. 179 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 180 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: When you realize that with disorganized attachment or any insecure 181 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 2: attachment style, your brain is wired for safety. It's doing 182 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: what it thinks it has to do to protect you. 183 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: You're not optimizing for connection and love. You're optimizing for protection. 184 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: But it's protection based on your past relational trauma, not 185 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: the protection that you need now as a healthy, emotionally available, 186 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 2: secure adult that can have healthy relationships who trust herself, 187 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,959 Speaker 2: that protection looks a lot differently. But you're still operating 188 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 2: off of the ways you used to in the past, 189 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: or the ways you saw modeled. But if I let 190 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 2: you get caught, the three month mark makes sense to me. 191 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 2: It's like, oh, you're getting so close you could hurt me. 192 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: I will leave the relationship before I can be hurt. 193 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. Protection, And I guess, like, what do you think 194 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: that knee jerk reaction is sort of to like do 195 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: an over correction, like to say like, Okay, I'm not 196 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: going to have sex with somebody until they're my boyfriend 197 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: before sort of saying like what happening emotionally? 198 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: Like why, Like you know, I think this is great 199 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 2: that you did this, that I'm trying. Yeah, because here's 200 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: the deal. When we have an insecure attachment style or 201 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 2: disorganized attachment style, you can easily use sex as a 202 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 2: relationship building tool as a way to try to say, oh, 203 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 2: this is how I will create secure attachment with this person, right, 204 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: instead of yeah, when we're pacing appropriately and we are 205 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 2: securely attached, we know, oh, I have to build a 206 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 2: secure relationship first. Yeah, and sex is a deepening of 207 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: that secure relationship instead of a relationship builder. So I 208 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: think it's great that you've taken it out of the 209 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: equation because you're going, okay, I need to learn how 210 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 2: to use this relationship tool differently, and you're breaking a pattern. Yeah, 211 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: it's great, I'm trying. And then now you're in this 212 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,119 Speaker 2: era where you get to go deeper. 213 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: Okay, let's get to the other attachment styles. I've been 214 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: talking about myself too much. 215 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 3: I love it. 216 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: Let's talk about I guess I'm in a piece of 217 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: all of these except for secure. Okay, avoidant. What does 218 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: avoidant attachment look like? 219 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 2: In dating, avoidant attachment has hyper independence, okay, and hyper 220 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 2: independence means you feel much more safe depending on yourself. Okay, 221 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 2: it does not feel safe to depend on other people. 222 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: Our unhealed stuff is going to come up in our 223 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 2: romantic relationships because they are our most vulnerable based on 224 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: evolutionary psychology, that person you're supposed to be able to 225 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: depend on for survival. So it brings up your unhealed 226 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 2: because yeah, people can have secure, secure work relationships, but 227 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 2: it comes out in the romantic relationship. 228 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: What else, how else can you spot like avoidance? 229 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 2: So avoidant attachment. This is the guy that you go 230 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: on three dates with and it's magical and there's such 231 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 2: a connection and you're like, Wow, this is going really 232 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: really well, and then they don't call you for a week. 233 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: They're distancing at signs of intimacy, at signs of getting close. 234 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 2: They have a compulsion. Notice I didn't say they intentionally 235 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: do it. They have a compulsion to pull away. 236 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: We have maybe a hard time accepting it as a compulsion. 237 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: I like that you're putting emphasis on this. 238 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's how they're wired for safety. It's what their 239 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: body and their brain does it. It matches their relationship template. Ooh, 240 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 2: I'm getting too close. I have to pull away. 241 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Why do you think emotional closeness triggers the withdrawal? 242 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: They're not comfortable with really feeling their emotions. Yeah, so 243 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: if I can't feel my own emotions, how can I 244 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 2: hold space for yours? How can I be close to you? 245 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 2: It's very uncomfortable when we're in a secure didamic. We 246 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: value relationships, we value our partner, We make a lot 247 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 2: of time. It's a part of our life. It's not 248 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 2: our whole life, but it's a pretty big part of 249 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: our life. 250 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: Right. 251 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: So, the avoidantly attached person emphasis on the career, emphasis 252 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: on all these other things, they're friends or feeling like 253 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 2: they have this big, big life, and a lot of 254 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: times they're devaluing a romantic partner as protection and subconsciously. 255 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: We're not doing this intentionally, say more about the devaluing 256 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: of the romantic life. 257 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: When there's an avoidantly attached person that's so focused on 258 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 2: their career and so focused on these other areas, it's 259 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: because they trust themselves there, they feel good there, they 260 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 2: put all their energy there, you know. I think sometimes 261 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: that's why we see these like fifty year old men 262 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: that never got married, but they have these big successful careers. 263 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 2: It's like, oh, they felt good and they could trust 264 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 2: themselves in that area. But then they get to the 265 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 2: top of the top and they go, but wait, I 266 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 2: do want love, right, Yeah, that's a misconception. People think 267 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: that avoidantly attached people don't actually want love. They do, 268 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 2: they're terrified of it, sure, and aren't real Yeah, in 269 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: different ways. Yeah, totally. 270 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 271 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 2: Let's move on to anxious anxious attachment. Anxious attachment. This 272 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 2: is a lot of people. It used to be mostly 273 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 2: women with anxious attachment. That is changing. We are now 274 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: seeing well, actually want to ask you, which style do 275 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 2: you think is the fastest growing attachment style? 276 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: Probably anxious. 277 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: I guess it's actually avoidant. Ah, So more and more 278 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: women are becoming avoidantly attached. 279 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: This kind of does make sense, right, because women are 280 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: like throwing themselves into work, yes, friendship, yes, celibacy yes. 281 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 2: Wow. And there used to be majority women we would 282 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 2: say we're more anxiously attached, but now we're also seeing 283 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 2: men are also anxiously attached more and more, and anxious 284 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 2: attachment at its core, you are devaluing yourself, You are 285 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 2: overvaluing a partner, and what we see with anxious attachment, 286 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 2: we have self abandonment. Yeah, we have this desire to 287 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 2: not be abandoned is the top priority. I will do 288 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: whatever I have to do so that you don't abandon me. 289 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 2: A lot of emotional dysregulation, outsourcing your emotional regulation to 290 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 2: your partner totally, so I can't deal with my emotions. 291 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 2: I need you to fix it for me. And then 292 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: the other one that I think is so important with 293 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 2: anxious attachment, it's like your reassurance bucket has holes in it, 294 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 2: meaning no matter how much reassurance you get from a partner, 295 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 2: you are not internalizing it and you're always just waiting 296 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:55,719 Speaker 2: for the other shoe to drop. 297 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: How can you spot anxious attachment when you're dating? 298 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 2: I love this question. So I feel like the anxiously 299 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: attached person, especially in modern dating, they're reading everything about 300 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 2: how to play it cool totally okay. Yeah, so sometimes 301 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 2: you don't spot this until maybe date four or five. Right, 302 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 2: But what happens is a couple things are going to 303 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 2: need more communication at some point, So instead of getting 304 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 2: one text and then you don't respond, you might be 305 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 2: getting seven or seventeen. 306 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: So like the need the need for. 307 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 2: Reassurance is going to come up at some point, like 308 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 2: the physiological need too a compulsion. Remember I said with 309 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: avoidant attachment, the compulsions distance. With anxious attachment, the compulsion 310 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 2: is I need you, Yeah, reaching out right. 311 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, I'm only cringing because I'm thinking of myself. Okay, 312 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: where do people who have anxious attachment, like, how do 313 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: they begin to notice and maybe change? 314 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 2: I think what we don't realize is, yes, you're putting 315 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 2: us on your partner. It might be difficult for your partner, 316 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 2: but it's also disempowering for yourself. So Okay, with avoidant attachment, 317 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 2: you'll have hyperindependence, you only depend on yourself. Anxious attachment 318 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 2: more likely to have codependence. You're probably gonna really depend 319 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 2: on that other person significantly. Totally secure attachment, we have interdependence, 320 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 2: which is when you start to realize I can depend 321 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 2: on me, I am safe, I can trust myself, I 322 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 2: can regulate my emotions, that I'm gonna learn how to 323 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 2: self soothe. 324 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I don't really know if people have a 325 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: deep capacity to self soothe. This doesn't feel like something 326 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: that's like practiced very regularly culturally. 327 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 2: It's certainly not taught to us on a large scale. 328 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 2: If you grew up in a securely attached household, you 329 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 2: learned how to do it. Yeah, you didn't even realize 330 00:19:59,200 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: it and you just learned. 331 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: Oh it's something I'm working on. 332 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 2: Yes, I love that. 333 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: Okay, let's get to secure attachment. Now, what does secure 334 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: attachment look like? In dating? 335 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 2: Emotionally regulated? I trust myself to make good relationship decisions. 336 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 2: I enjoy dating. I am able to have an open 337 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 2: palm in relationships. I'm going to allow myself to experience 338 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: what someone is like, learn about them. But I'm not 339 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 2: clinging and I'm not pushing the person away. And I 340 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: always think about this. You want to be an intentional 341 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: investor of your energy? Oo, Right, Like if you were 342 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 2: investing in the stock market, you wouldn't just go throw 343 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 2: all your energy into a stock you knew nothing about, right, 344 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: you would gather the data, you would invest slowly, intentionally, 345 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 2: say what happens over time? You're her energy is your 346 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 2: most precious asset that you have. You're going to be 347 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 2: an intentional investor. And here's the reality. Okay, I could 348 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: go on and on about this. You want to be 349 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: a love scientist a dating scientist, as I call it, 350 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,479 Speaker 2: The only way you can trust the data is if 351 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 2: you show up as your fully authentic self. No, totally. 352 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 2: Otherwise you mess up the data, of course, and that's 353 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 2: how you end up staying in a six month relationship. 354 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: That feels horrible, Right, it's really doing something to my 355 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: brain to think about dating more like investing. I'm like, oh, wow, yeah, 356 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: maybe would have moved slower if it was. Yeah, what 357 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: would you say to someone who is scared that they'll 358 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: never feel securely attached? 359 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 2: It's available for everyone, no matter what. I have a 360 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: client I just helped. I might get emotion aout this. 361 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 2: But she's seventy and she, for the first time ever, 362 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 2: healed her relationship with her parents, even though they're no 363 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 2: longer alive. She's having a blast going on dates. She's like, 364 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 2: this is the first time I've ever had a healthy relationship. Oh, 365 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 2: it's never too late. Yeah, it's never too late. 366 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: And we all have the capacity to change. 367 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 2: We all have the capacity to change. 368 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: But you have to change to change. 369 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 2: Yes, when you start showing up differently, you get different results. 370 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: Right, It's really that easy. Right, Oh gosh, I love 371 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: getting emotional on this show What do you think are 372 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: like the biggest misconceptions of attachment theory and attachment style. 373 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: What frustrates you when people are sort of trying to 374 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: use this language. 375 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 2: What drives me crazy is when I see online I'll 376 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: see things like how to get the avoidant man to 377 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 2: love you? Oh ooh. That drives me not sound say more, 378 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 2: because that kind of messaging, it's preying on people who Okay, 379 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 2: they're trying to make that happen. Yeah, and these people 380 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 2: are saying things like play it cool and don't text 381 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 2: him for three days, and the reality is is you 382 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 2: can't get an avoidant person to love you. That's it 383 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 2: makes no sense. We should be saying how to show 384 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 2: up securely attached, even if you're dating an avoidant person, 385 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 2: and give them the opportunity to become better and maybe 386 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 2: they could be a partner. But you know, online people 387 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 2: just phrase things as a way to get clicks and 388 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 2: engagement of course, right. 389 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: Well, And something that I thought of when you said 390 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: that was like, that's definitely a thought I've had in 391 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: my mind over the last two week of dating this 392 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: man who I don't even know his attachment style, but 393 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: I was thinking like, yeah, how do I almost trick 394 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: him back into liking me again? It's trickery, right, like 395 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: waiting three days posting something for them, Like, and. 396 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: I want you to think about this in your ideal relationship. 397 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 2: How do you want to feel? Yeah, you want to 398 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 2: be your authentic self. You want to be emotionally regulated. 399 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 2: You don't want to be thinking how should I show 400 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 2: up in order to get this person to engage with me? Right? 401 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 2: So when we say, oh, instead of getting this person 402 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 2: alike me, how do I become securely attached? How do 403 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 2: I have a regulated nervous system. How do I start 404 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: trusting myself more? How do I tune into how do 405 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 2: I want to feel? Those are the much better questions. 406 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: Why do you think? 407 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: Because this has been coming up so much in the 408 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: last couple of weeks and like in so many conversations, 409 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: but I feel like a lot of women have such 410 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: a hard time trusting themselves. 411 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 2: Oh, a thousand persons right, Oh, we are so conditioned 412 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 2: to listen to all the needs of everyone else around 413 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 2: us and our families, society at large. We are given 414 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 2: rewards for self abandoning, self sacrificing, And what happens is 415 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 2: we all have that inner voice, But it just gets 416 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 2: quieter and quieter the more that we don't listen to it, 417 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: and then the less you listen to it, we lose 418 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: the self trust. So it's very when I have clients 419 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 2: that don't even know what they're feeling inside, which is 420 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 2: a lot of women, by the way, don't even know 421 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: what they're feeling. Here's where you start. You set a 422 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 2: timer on your phone alarmed to go off three times 423 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 2: a day, and for those three times a day, you 424 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 2: pause for five minutes and you say, what am I feeling? 425 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 2: What do I need? Is there anything that would help 426 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 2: me feel better? Supported? And you start doing that three 427 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 2: times a day, and you're starting to retrain your brain 428 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 2: to tune inwards. 429 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: Oh, it's like interesting because something that's coming up for 430 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: me is like, why do I sometimes feel like guilt 431 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: for self care or sort of just like really an 432 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: inability to sort of practice that. 433 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 2: You know. 434 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: It's like it's almost like even when I say things 435 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: like I know my opinion of me is the most 436 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: important one, I feel like. 437 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 2: Is that selfish? 438 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: Like I have a hard time truthfully believing it, but 439 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: I think it, do you know what I mean? 440 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 2: I think that probably goes back to the repetition compulsion 441 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: of it. All of you're trying to get the unavailable 442 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 2: person to choose you, right, and if you're taking care 443 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 2: of yourself, that doesn't align with your beliefs or your 444 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 2: relationship template. 445 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 1: It's unfortunate because my therapist talk to me about this 446 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: in high school. It's like, I've been working on this 447 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: since high school, but nothing seemed to work yet. 448 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 2: So as a psychologist, one thing I saw in my 449 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 2: private practice. I started seeing that clients would have all 450 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 2: this awareness and that's what you have. You have all 451 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: this awareness, Yeah, but then what do you actually do 452 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 2: with the awareness? How do we actually change? And that's 453 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 2: where my research in developing my empowered Secure Loved method. 454 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 2: It's a four part process I take people through to 455 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 2: actually get to the root of relational trauma, release it, 456 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 2: and rewire your brain and your identity to embody secure attachment. 457 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 2: What are those four parts? Number one is revisiting the 458 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 2: relational trauma and I have a whole framework for that. 459 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 2: There's something I do called the relationship inventory. There's specific 460 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 2: questions I ask in that inventory, along with any other 461 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 2: significant relationships. Mom and dad included. So step two, we're 462 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 2: gonna become aware of your current relationship belief system. You 463 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 2: have a relationship belief system and a model for what 464 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 2: a relationship is. Your brain has this old file cabinet 465 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 2: labeled relationships. There's a lot in there, so much that 466 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 2: we need to throw it out on the floor, look 467 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 2: at it totally, get rid of all the stuff that's unhelpful. Yeah, 468 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 2: and then intentionally rebuild helpful relationship beliefs. So step three 469 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 2: is about embodying secure attachment, a regulated nervous system, developing 470 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 2: your securely attached identity and behaviors. So we have to 471 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 2: intentionally develop it and develop our our non negotiables. For Hey, 472 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 2: this is the securely attached me. This is how she 473 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,959 Speaker 2: shows up for herself. This is how she shows up 474 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 2: in relationships. These are the ways that she expresses her 475 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 2: needs and wants, et cetera. 476 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: We have to really identify that our attachment styles are 477 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: not concrete. 478 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 2: It's what I'm hearing exactly. This was controversial in the past, 479 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 2: but it's been now proven with research that you can 480 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 2: absolutely change your attachment. 481 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: Style that feels exciting. Yeah, okay, tell me step four. 482 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 2: So step four this is where it's skills learning how 483 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 2: to manage emotional dysregulation, and learning conflict navigation is a 484 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: big piece. 485 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: Okay. 486 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 2: Also learning relationship pacing. You were talking about going very 487 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 2: fast in the beginning, so learning how to practice appropriate pacing. 488 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 2: So most people they like to start at step four. 489 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: They want all the information and the skills. None of 490 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 2: that matters until we do steps one, two, and three. 491 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, no, that makes sense completely. Can taking a 492 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: break from dating aka going boy sober whatever help shift 493 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: someone's attachment style? 494 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 2: Yes, and it has to be an intentional break. It 495 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 2: has to be a break where you say, clearly, what 496 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: I'm doing hasn't worked. I need to do some deep 497 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 2: work so that I change my identity, changes my relationship 498 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: beliefs change so that I can show up differently to 499 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 2: become as securely attached as you can. I think we 500 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 2: have this idea of I'm going to be fully secure 501 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 2: and fully healed before I date, and that's not required, 502 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 2: but maybe learn how to regulate your own emotions and 503 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: become more securely attached. And then also when you get 504 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 2: into relationships, you're going to have healing that you can't 505 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 2: have as a single person. I know you've heard this right. 506 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 2: There's certain experiences. Corrective emotional experiences land differently when they're 507 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 2: happening in a romantic relationship. I have an example of 508 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 2: this if you want. I was dating my now husband. 509 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 2: We were long distance during the pandemic, and I was 510 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 2: visiting him in Florida and I knew I was going 511 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: back to Montana and I'm falling in love with this man, 512 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 2: and I you know, I'm like, I don't want to leave. 513 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 2: So some of my anxious attachment strategies got triggered. So 514 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 2: I'm like, I got to take something of his with 515 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 2: me so that I have it with me when I'm 516 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 2: in Montana. So I'm like going through his drawer and 517 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 2: I grabbed a pair of his socks. 518 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: Okay, you're going to take a sauce. 519 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 2: He catches me doing this, Okay, he comes in, He's like, 520 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 2: why are you taking my saw? Don't take And I'm 521 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 2: so embarrassed, right And the old version of me would 522 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 2: have freaked out, like you know whatever, But I'm working 523 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 2: on being securely attached, and I said, I'm gonna miss you. 524 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 2: This man gets me his favorite Ohio state sweatshirt that 525 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 2: he wears all the time, and he gives it to 526 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 2: me and says, I want you to have this. Oh 527 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 2: my god, that was a corrective experience. 528 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 529 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: The boys that I had dated in the past would 530 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 2: have laughed and like, you're so weird. This man wanted 531 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: me to feel safe. That was only a level of 532 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 2: that I could experience in a relationship. I couldn't experience 533 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 2: that on my own. 534 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: Gosh, that's so sweet. He leveled it up for you, 535 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: he said, help me re rock. It sucks. Take my 536 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: favorite sweater. Okay, So yes, taking a Ultimately, yes, taking 537 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: a break can help, but also you have to be 538 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: genuinely intentional about healing what. 539 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: You're doing during that break. Don't be hating on Ben 540 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 2: and just going to brush with your girlfriends. 541 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: And I guess that is really what we love to do, 542 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: and like that is sometimes something I get so culturally 543 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: upset with is because I'm just like, oh, it's so 544 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: unproductive to sort of put all the blame on men. 545 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: Like the separatist sort of energy of it all is 546 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: just a little bit unproductive to me. 547 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 2: It's a protective measure. It makes us feel better totally, 548 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 2: and it doesn't help. 549 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: So many things in my life make me feel better 550 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: but don't help that's like, Okay. My last question and 551 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: we ask everybody this who comes on, is what is 552 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: one thing that you have unlearned about love? 553 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 2: That is such a good question. I think one of 554 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: the most powerful things is that I have to be 555 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 2: someone who I'm not in order to be loved, or 556 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: I have to be overgiving and accommodating and self abandoning 557 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 2: and never in an argument. And I have to be 558 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 2: this version of me that I think I was supposed 559 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 2: to be in order to be loved. I had to 560 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 2: unlearn that the reality is I get to be exactly 561 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 2: who I am and become even more of myself, more 562 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 2: of my true self and a healthy relationship. 563 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: Well, I definitely got the therapy I needed in that conversation. 564 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: Thanks so much to doctor Morgan for talking me through that. 565 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: I hope this was helpful to everyone listening and gave 566 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: you hope that your attachment style is not forever. Thanks 567 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: everyone for listening, and I'll talk to you all next week. 568 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: Boy Sover is a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Hopewordard. 569 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our 570 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: supervising producer is Emily Meronoff. Our assistant producer is Logan Palau, 571 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering by Abou Zafar. 572 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and 573 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Boy Sober 574 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, and wherever you get 575 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.