WEBVTT - Selects: How the Stanford Prison Experiment Worked

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, everybody, Chuck here. Hope you're having a great day.

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<v Speaker 1>Hope you're having a great weekend. I'm thinking about you,

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<v Speaker 1>each one of you individually. I'm thinking about you. I

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<v Speaker 1>know where you live. I'm standing right behind you. Actually

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just kidding, but I hope you're doing well. This

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<v Speaker 1>one goes back to July fifth, twenty eighteen. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>good one. I think I picked this one because I

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<v Speaker 1>had just recently seen the movie on the Stanford Prison Experiment.

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<v Speaker 1>The movie is okay, it's not great, it's not bad,

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<v Speaker 1>it's fine. The podcast episode was pretty good from what

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<v Speaker 1>I remember though, But you should do both. If you've

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<v Speaker 1>seen the movie, listen to the show. If you listen

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<v Speaker 1>to the show, then give the movie a shot. It's

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<v Speaker 1>got Philly Crudup. He's always awesome. And it's called How

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<v Speaker 1>the Stanford Prison Experiment Worked. Where a friend becomes foe,

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<v Speaker 1>Bo becomes friend. What will happen in the end? Listen

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<v Speaker 1>in to find out. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know,

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<v Speaker 1>a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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<v Speaker 2>there's Charles w Chuck Bryant.

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<v Speaker 1>Jerry's over there.

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<v Speaker 2>So why don't you pull up a chair, kick back

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<v Speaker 2>and tell us about your problems. Because this is psychology stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>We should just call this episode the Stanford Prison Experiment,

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<v Speaker 1>aka perhaps the hackiest experiment of all time. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>really not an experiment anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>No, but it's the most famous psychology experiment ever.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I got kind of ticked off while I was

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<v Speaker 1>researching this. Yeah you should, man, because I used to

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<v Speaker 1>think it was cool, like, oh man, what a cool experiment.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, everybody's evil, it's core the core.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Then I researched it and I was like, this

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<v Speaker 1>is a bunch of bs, all of it. This is

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<v Speaker 1>one of the worst executed experiments I've ever heard of.

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<v Speaker 2>That is so funny because I while I was researching this,

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, I'm gonna have to keep it together

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<v Speaker 2>maybe at the end and I can really go off from.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's go off at the beginning.

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<v Speaker 2>That's great, man. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I watched the movie today.

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<v Speaker 2>Too, the twenty fifty one.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, how was it?

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<v Speaker 2>How was Billy Croud up? Because I loved him in

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<v Speaker 2>almost famous Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm a fan, he's he was good, but like,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, the movie A was pretty sensationalized. As

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<v Speaker 1>far as the violence, Like, they showed a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>straight up physical violence in the movie which supposedly didn't occur, right,

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<v Speaker 1>like beating them with billy clubs and hog tying them

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<v Speaker 1>and like like real violence.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually, these days I should say Atlanta.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yollywood is what they call it.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, there you go. Perfect. That's that's perfect. That sounds

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<v Speaker 2>like a Norman Rita's creation.

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<v Speaker 1>It might have been. And then what was I saying? Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't feel like it came down hard enough on

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<v Speaker 1>this Yahoo. What was a guy's name, Zimbardo? Yeah, Zimbardo

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<v Speaker 1>for just crafting a really poor doing a very poor

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<v Speaker 1>job at crafting is supposedly scientific experiment.

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<v Speaker 2>No, he was like the driving force behind that movie

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<v Speaker 2>getting made. Apparently he'd been trying to get a movie

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<v Speaker 2>made in America.

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<v Speaker 1>He seems to be a pretty fameless self promoter decades.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, it's not a good quality in a social psychologist.

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<v Speaker 1>No, so we're going to.

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<v Speaker 2>See I guess we let the cat out of the bag.

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<v Speaker 2>But well, we shall see that. The Stanford prison experiment

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<v Speaker 2>one of the most famous experiments in the Annals of Psychology.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not an experiment at all. No, it's findings are

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<v Speaker 2>wide open to interpretation, and it was conducted by a

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<v Speaker 2>showman basically.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, you know, it's a red flag when

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<v Speaker 1>you don't publish your findings in a medical journal. You

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<v Speaker 1>publish them in New York was it? New York Magazine?

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<v Speaker 2>New York Times magazine?

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<v Speaker 1>Hodgman's rag, Well, great rag, But that's not the place

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<v Speaker 1>to go publish scientific findings.

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<v Speaker 2>No peer reviewed journals are. Yeah, and they circumvented that, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>for very good reasons. All right, so let's let's talk

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<v Speaker 2>about the outline. So let's go back to the beginning, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, back to the year of my birth, nineteen seventy

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<v Speaker 1>one and Stanford at Stanford University, which is what Palo Alto.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, go fighting sequoias.

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<v Speaker 1>What is there?

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<v Speaker 2>They have like a big old sequoya on their logo.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's like a and then they have a

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<v Speaker 2>sequoia with its fists up or is that? Oh, that's

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<v Speaker 2>Notre Dame I'm thinking of. I do feel like it

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<v Speaker 2>has sometimes Chuck's looking it up everybody, so let me stall.

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<v Speaker 1>It is a tree, the Stanford Tree.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what the mascot is, but there's definitely

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<v Speaker 2>a tree associated in No.

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<v Speaker 1>I looked it up, the Stanford Tree.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, cool.

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<v Speaker 1>And the first question is why is it a tree?

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<v Speaker 2>Uh huh, Well, what's the answer.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, I'm sure it's just because of where

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<v Speaker 1>it is in California. But that doesn't answer the real question,

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<v Speaker 1>which is why would you have a tree?

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<v Speaker 2>Right Phillips Embardo sitting there like, quit stalling, get to

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<v Speaker 2>the heckling.

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<v Speaker 1>He's still around, Yeah, he is, so all right, We're

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<v Speaker 1>at Stanford. It's nineteen seventy one.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're actually in the basement of one of the

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<v Speaker 2>buildings at Stanford University, I think like Campbell Hall or

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<v Speaker 2>something like that. And I think August of nineteen seventy one,

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<v Speaker 2>there were twenty four young men, almost all of them

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<v Speaker 2>when I think one of them was Asian American, and

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<v Speaker 2>they are doing something pretty bizarre in this basement in

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<v Speaker 2>August of nineteen seventy one. They've been divided into two groups,

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<v Speaker 2>guards and.

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<v Speaker 1>Prisoners, supposedly average kids.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, and they are acting out this basically role playing

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<v Speaker 2>game of guards.

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<v Speaker 1>Versus prisoners for fifteen bucks a day.

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<v Speaker 2>In a simulated prison in the basement of this hall

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<v Speaker 2>at Stanford University.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which would be about ninety three dollars today funded

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<v Speaker 1>by the US Office of Naval Research. Is that right?

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<v Speaker 2>So it would be ninety three bucks a day, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was originally gonna be two weeks. So I'm sure

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<v Speaker 2>some of these guys were like, heck.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I mean I kind of forgot what it

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<v Speaker 1>was like to be a college student. That'd be uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what between twelve and fourteen hundred bucks starting

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<v Speaker 1>off your summer.

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<v Speaker 2>It'd be about thirteen thirteen hundred and two dollars if

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<v Speaker 2>my quick math is correct.

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<v Speaker 1>Good scratch, Yeah, for a twenty one year old.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, two weeks on summer break.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right. So you were divided into two lots. Like

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<v Speaker 1>you said, they asked people supposedly what you wanted to be,

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<v Speaker 1>unless this was purely a movie creation, and they did

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<v Speaker 1>try and look up and try and find out the differences. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>but they supposedly asked them. In most everyone said, or

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<v Speaker 1>in fact everyone said prisoner. In one of the reactions

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<v Speaker 1>from who ended up being the bad guard, the guy said,

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<v Speaker 1>they asked him why, and he's like, because nobody likes guards, right,

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<v Speaker 1>It's like, why would anyone want to be a guard?

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<v Speaker 1>Because they thought we'll just be prisoners because they just

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<v Speaker 1>will lay around and smoke cigarettes.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, So we'll we'll and we'll kind of unpack what

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<v Speaker 2>that suggests later on.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so you've got these these guys and they're down

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<v Speaker 2>here for this experiment, and so coming at it from

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<v Speaker 2>the way, this is the popular interpretation of what happened

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<v Speaker 2>at the Stanford prison experiment. Okay, yes, you've got you've

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<v Speaker 2>got twelve guards and twelve prisoners.

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<v Speaker 1>The prisoners had been arrested, by the way, by the

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<v Speaker 1>real Palo Alto police. Yeah, they weren't told when, but

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<v Speaker 1>like the real cops came by, arrested each one of

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<v Speaker 1>them for you know, a variety of crimes.

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<v Speaker 2>Book them at the Palo Alto Police station, and then

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<v Speaker 2>transported them to the jail, the fake jail in at Stanford.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they call it the Stanford County Jail. And they

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<v Speaker 1>did a legit job. They put up signs, they had

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<v Speaker 1>these rooms decked out like jail cells, they had a hole.

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<v Speaker 1>They did a really believable job of making this seem

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<v Speaker 1>like a prison environment at least. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So you've got these these prisoners who've been delivered. You've

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<v Speaker 2>got these guards who are waiting there for them. And

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<v Speaker 2>as as far as Imbardo's ever said, these these guards

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<v Speaker 2>were told, you have to protect the prison and everything

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<v Speaker 2>else is up to you. The only rule is there's

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<v Speaker 2>no physical punishment. We're just here to observe.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like, here's your uniforms, here's your sunglasses.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And then the prisoners were booked in with wearing smocks.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no shoes, no underwear, yeah, naked under the smocks.

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<v Speaker 2>Chained at the ankles. And then they wore like those

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<v Speaker 2>stocking cap do rags. They had a panty on their

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<v Speaker 2>head to simulate their having their head shaved.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, and you know, this is this the early seventies,

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<v Speaker 1>so most of them had these big afros and long

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<v Speaker 1>hair and stuff under these pantees.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, So this is I At first, everything's pretty normal.

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<v Speaker 2>The guards don't quite know what to do. They're a

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<v Speaker 2>little timid. The prisoners apparently relished this immediately and started

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<v Speaker 2>like finding where the guard's boundaries were, and they started

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<v Speaker 2>to band together, and there was actually, I think on

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<v Speaker 2>day two they turnover. From day one to two, there

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<v Speaker 2>was a prisoner riot.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean they, like you said, they were sort

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<v Speaker 1>of laughing at first, and I think we didn't mention

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<v Speaker 1>too and this is we'll end up being very, very problematic,

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<v Speaker 1>and the first sign that he didn't do a good job.

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<v Speaker 1>Simbardo actually acted as the superintendent of the prison, involved

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<v Speaker 1>himself in his own experiment and had one of it.

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<v Speaker 1>He had some graduate assistants that were assisting in the program.

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<v Speaker 1>They acted as parole board, and one of them was

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<v Speaker 1>the warden.

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<v Speaker 2>That was yeah, an undergrad. Actually were they undergrad assistant? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>the warden Jaffy, his last name was Jaffy. He was

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<v Speaker 2>an undergrad at the time, and actually he had come

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<v Speaker 2>up with the experiment on his own.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh he was the guy.

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<v Speaker 2>Huh huh. And then Zimbardo was like, this is a

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<v Speaker 2>really good idea. Let's do this for real. Imagine the press, right.

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<v Speaker 1>So, yeah, like you said, it escalated pretty quickly. After

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<v Speaker 1>kind of laughing at first, these guards got into their roles,

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<v Speaker 1>to say the least, and really kind of started being

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<v Speaker 1>jerks in quick order, and after the prisoners were like, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>this is kind of funny, like you're being you're not

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<v Speaker 1>being very cool. Yeah, and they were you know, kind

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<v Speaker 1>of smacked down and you know, made to do things

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<v Speaker 1>like push ups and jumping jacks, and they would withhold

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<v Speaker 1>food and eventually they would like take their beds away

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<v Speaker 1>from them and stuff like. It just got worse and worse,

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<v Speaker 1>and there was, I think, like you said, on day two,

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<v Speaker 1>an uprising. They got together, threw the cots off their

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<v Speaker 1>beds and through the bed frames against the door and

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't let them in.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, So there was a prisoner riot. Yeah, that's pretty significant, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And what's equally significant is that the guards by the

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<v Speaker 2>second day started to show signs of like real cruelty

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<v Speaker 2>towards the prisoners. They started treating them very poorly. They

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<v Speaker 2>started engaging in basically acts of torture, like waking them

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<v Speaker 2>up randomly in the middle of the night, making them

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<v Speaker 2>get up, like you said, push ups, which is interpreted

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<v Speaker 2>as physical punishment because again, you couldn't hit them with

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<v Speaker 2>the rubber hose, you couldn't hit them with the baton,

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<v Speaker 2>you couldn't punch them. But if you make somebody do

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of push ups, that's physical punishment too. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was within the bounds apparently.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. They were referred to only by their prison numbers.

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<v Speaker 1>They would never say their names. They were made to memory.

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<v Speaker 1>Everyone else's prison number, and like they would line them

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<v Speaker 1>up and tell them to repeat their numbers for like

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<v Speaker 1>an hour if they didn't do it fast enough, and

0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:12.240
<v Speaker 1>then in reverse order they would get punishment. They would

0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:14.960
<v Speaker 1>do the kind of the classic moves of holding one

0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:16.880
<v Speaker 1>responsible for the punishment of others.

0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:18.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a big one, Like.

0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:20.079
<v Speaker 1>If you didn't make your bed good enough and no

0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:21.640
<v Speaker 1>one could go to sleep, stuff like that.

0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.680
<v Speaker 2>The guards also innovated the carrots here or there too.

0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.920
<v Speaker 2>They actually made one cell like a good cell, Like

0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.280
<v Speaker 2>they put a bed in it, yeah, with like betting.

0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.200
<v Speaker 2>If you were in that cell, you were eligible for

0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.560
<v Speaker 2>like good meals, yeah, better than what the other prisoners had.

0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.200
<v Speaker 2>And there were room for three inmates in there at

0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:44.640
<v Speaker 2>a time. And so it instilled this sense of competition

0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:52.120
<v Speaker 2>and skullduggery, I guess, backstabbery among the prisoners to curry

0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:55.320
<v Speaker 2>favor with the guards, like by informing on the other ones. Yeah,

0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.240
<v Speaker 2>so that you could get a chance to be in

0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:58.200
<v Speaker 2>like the nice cell.

0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And I think even before that when they went

0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:02.800
<v Speaker 1>to do the when they went to stage the uprising,

0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.720
<v Speaker 1>I don't think there were three rooms of three, and

0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:08.280
<v Speaker 1>I think six of them. Two of the rooms participated

0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.480
<v Speaker 1>and one of the rooms did not. And because not

0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.720
<v Speaker 1>all the guys, you know, on not all the prisoners

0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:17.560
<v Speaker 1>like rebelled as much. Some of them just kind of

0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:18.240
<v Speaker 1>went along with it.

0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Interestingly, some of the guards did not descend into cruelty, right.

0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.560
<v Speaker 2>They actually some of them did, like favors, went out

0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:27.720
<v Speaker 2>of their way to be nice to the prisoners. But

0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:32.200
<v Speaker 2>and the grabster who wrote this article points out very significantly,

0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:36.720
<v Speaker 2>they didn't stand up to the cruel guards or officially

0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.199
<v Speaker 2>object to their behavior. Right, they went along with it.

0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:41.920
<v Speaker 1>But then they thought they had to.

0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.040
<v Speaker 2>In their own right, in their own way, they did

0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:47.439
<v Speaker 2>what they could to retain their humanity. So there are

0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.480
<v Speaker 2>two huge points, and one of them, there's one among

0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.960
<v Speaker 2>the guards and one among the prisoners. And the one

0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.840
<v Speaker 2>among the prisoners comes thirty six hours after the beginning

0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:01.080
<v Speaker 2>of the of the experiment, and this prison his name,

0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.640
<v Speaker 2>it would later be revealed, was Douglas Corpi. He had

0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:10.199
<v Speaker 2>an emotional breakdown, a nervous breakdown thirty six hours after

0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:15.280
<v Speaker 2>this experiment starts. One of the prisoners it becomes so

0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:21.120
<v Speaker 2>emotionally involved in this simulated prison at the cruelty the

0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:23.880
<v Speaker 2>simulated supposedly cruelty of the guards, that he had a

0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.720
<v Speaker 2>nervous breakdown well and had to be had to be

0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:31.120
<v Speaker 2>removed from the experiment. And this is like, this is

0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:35.920
<v Speaker 2>Embardo's This is the official line for the Stanford Prison experiment, right,

0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:37.560
<v Speaker 2>it has been for decades.

0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:40.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. He also said that one of them broke out

0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:46.840
<v Speaker 1>in a psychosomatic rash. There was all manner of various

0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:49.240
<v Speaker 1>levels of psychological breakdowns happening on.

0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.960
<v Speaker 2>The other side. The big star among the guards was

0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:55.480
<v Speaker 2>a guy named John Wayne who you referenced earlier.

0:14:55.600 --> 0:15:00.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, his name was Dave Eshelman, and he he was

0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.920
<v Speaker 1>the one who he was the ringleader. He's the one

0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.000
<v Speaker 1>that came out as the most brutal guard of them all,

0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:07.760
<v Speaker 1>and all the other guards kind of fell in line

0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:09.800
<v Speaker 1>behind him and took their cues from him.

0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.480
<v Speaker 2>So this whole thing's going on, This is crazy town

0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:16.160
<v Speaker 2>in this place. In six days, six days, this thing

0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:17.560
<v Speaker 2>descends into chaos.

0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.479
<v Speaker 1>Supposed to be two weeks, Yes.

0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.160
<v Speaker 2>There was. There was rumors that there was going to

0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.720
<v Speaker 2>be a breakout, and so they moved the experiment. There

0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.600
<v Speaker 2>were that that guy Douglas Corpi, who had a nervous

0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:33.200
<v Speaker 2>breakdown ended up getting put into the hole this broom

0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:38.200
<v Speaker 2>closet for I think overnight, and was finally released because

0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:42.360
<v Speaker 2>the the researchers that actually stepped in and said you

0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:45.600
<v Speaker 2>should should probably let him out. There was it was

0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:50.520
<v Speaker 2>just utter chaos. And then eventually Phillips Zimbardo's girlfriend at

0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:54.360
<v Speaker 2>the time, a woman named Christine Maslock.

0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:57.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, his wife to be. Oh she married him, huh yeah,

0:15:57.120 --> 0:15:57.640
<v Speaker 1>still married.

0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.480
<v Speaker 2>So she came and just dropped in to see how

0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:04.960
<v Speaker 2>things were going and was so outraged at what she

0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.000
<v Speaker 2>saw that she was like, you you so far beyond

0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.000
<v Speaker 2>the line. You have to stop this now, like this

0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.600
<v Speaker 2>is this is descended into chaos. You can't do this.

0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.880
<v Speaker 2>These people are treating these these prisoners horribly, Like how

0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:21.760
<v Speaker 2>are you letting this go on? Went okay, fine, and

0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:24.920
<v Speaker 2>so the next day he canceled the experiment again after

0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.120
<v Speaker 2>six days, and it was scheduled to go on for

0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:32.240
<v Speaker 2>two weeks. And so he comes out tells the world

0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:37.080
<v Speaker 2>in this New York Times magazine, guys, if I took you,

0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:39.160
<v Speaker 2>if I took you Josh, and I took you Chuck

0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:43.440
<v Speaker 2>and put you as guarden prisoner in even a simulated prison,

0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.400
<v Speaker 2>and put a smock on Josh and took his underwear

0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.080
<v Speaker 2>off and put a stocking on his head and gave

0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.880
<v Speaker 2>Chuck a baton and some glasses. Chuck would beat Josh

0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:58.080
<v Speaker 2>up well, and joshuauld probably have his spirit broken and

0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:02.360
<v Speaker 2>have a nervous breakdown. It's in everybody. Evil is in everybody. Yeah,

0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:05.560
<v Speaker 2>crumbling at the first sign of adversity is in everybody.

0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.679
<v Speaker 2>We're all just pathetic weaklings. Stanford Prison experiment, and he

0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:11.240
<v Speaker 2>ran off and said I'm famous.

0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 1>All right, that's a great setup. So we'll take a

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:17.680
<v Speaker 1>break here and come back and talk a little bit

0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:20.159
<v Speaker 1>about the more about the experiment and the realities of

0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:43.960
<v Speaker 1>it right after this. All right, So you've got John

0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:46.560
<v Speaker 1>Wayne in there. I don't think we mentioned that he

0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.240
<v Speaker 1>took on the persona of the prison boss and cool

0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:50.760
<v Speaker 1>hand Luke.

0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:51.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.480
<v Speaker 1>He did a fake Southern accent and everything and dove

0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.919
<v Speaker 1>right into this role. If you talk to Dave Eshelman today,

0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.440
<v Speaker 1>he will say he's very much on record of saying

0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm not some jerk, and I didn't get off on

0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.480
<v Speaker 1>being sadistic. He said, I wanted to do what they

0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:11.760
<v Speaker 1>paid me fifteen dollars a day to do, which was

0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:15.879
<v Speaker 1>to be a prison guard and to treat these guys poorly, right,

0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:17.520
<v Speaker 1>and so I create you know, he said, I did

0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:20.000
<v Speaker 1>some drama in high school and I literally acted this

0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:21.920
<v Speaker 1>part as well as I could.

0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.400
<v Speaker 2>That was I felt was expected and wanted from.

0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.800
<v Speaker 1>Me, right, And I put on this fake Southern accent.

0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.040
<v Speaker 1>And if you like ask friends and family today, they

0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.120
<v Speaker 1>would laugh at this because I'm really not this guy

0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:36.640
<v Speaker 1>at all, right, because he really comes off as as

0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:38.600
<v Speaker 1>a bit of a villain in this movie. For sure.

0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:44.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, he perpetrated real cruelty on other people, and we'll

0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:45.399
<v Speaker 2>get to that later. He said he.

0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:46.680
<v Speaker 1>Feels bad about it too, and.

0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:50.160
<v Speaker 2>He should, yeah, because the other people actually did suffer

0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.720
<v Speaker 2>under this guy's leadership as the ring leader of the

0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:57.760
<v Speaker 2>mean guards, right, like they wore pink on Wednesday. It

0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:02.440
<v Speaker 2>was terrible everywhere, right, So he really should feel bad

0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:04.639
<v Speaker 2>and apparently he does. I saw that all over the

0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:06.960
<v Speaker 2>place too, that he feels bad for it. But the

0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:11.399
<v Speaker 2>point is is that he has said, like this didn't

0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:17.040
<v Speaker 2>happen organically, like I I wasn't. I felt encouraged to

0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:18.320
<v Speaker 2>play this role.

0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:20.679
<v Speaker 1>Right. That's a big deal.

0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:23.760
<v Speaker 2>Because the findings of the Stanford Prison experiment say if

0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:25.919
<v Speaker 2>you take some people and say you're a guard.

0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:28.000
<v Speaker 1>Give him your empower, and you will turn evil.

0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.800
<v Speaker 2>They will turn evil within a day. A day they

0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.719
<v Speaker 2>said about this guy. And this guy's like, no, I was,

0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.000
<v Speaker 2>just like you said, doing my job what they were

0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.400
<v Speaker 2>paying me fifteen bucks a day for. Yeah, let's put

0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:42.879
<v Speaker 2>that one to the side. Let's go visit with Douglas Corpi,

0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:47.000
<v Speaker 2>who was the prisoner who in thirty six short hours

0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:52.160
<v Speaker 2>of this simulated prison experiment lost his marbles and had

0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.760
<v Speaker 2>a nervous breakdown and had to go home. Right, one

0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:58.359
<v Speaker 2>of the other two pillars of the findings that people

0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.840
<v Speaker 2>are either evil or crumble in the face of adversity

0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.960
<v Speaker 2>from the Stanford prison experiment, and again this is how

0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:06.680
<v Speaker 2>this thing's been taught for like fifty years.

0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.679
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Yeah, So Corpy comes out and says, I was

0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:13.560
<v Speaker 1>faking that, and I put on a big act so

0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:15.919
<v Speaker 1>I could get out of there because it sucked and

0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.000
<v Speaker 1>I didn't want to be there anymore. So I fake

0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:21.560
<v Speaker 1>like I was. And he like one of his quotes

0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.240
<v Speaker 1>was I don't have it here, But he basically said,

0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.880
<v Speaker 1>like any trained clinician would have been able to see

0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.480
<v Speaker 1>right through this, Like when I hear the tapes years later,

0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.160
<v Speaker 1>it's like, I'm not an actor. I wasn't like apparently

0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:35.800
<v Speaker 1>the John wayn guy at least had been in like

0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:36.600
<v Speaker 1>high school.

0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:38.560
<v Speaker 2>Plays in college too, I think, yeah.

0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:40.080
<v Speaker 1>And he was like, I was not an actor. And

0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.199
<v Speaker 1>it was so clear to me looking back at these

0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:44.320
<v Speaker 1>tapes that I was faking.

0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:45.439
<v Speaker 2>It, faking a nervous breakdown.

0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:47.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, faking a nervous breakdown to get out of there. Right.

0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.240
<v Speaker 2>So the reason why he said later that he did

0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:53.840
<v Speaker 2>fake this nervous breakdown is because he took the job

0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:56.400
<v Speaker 2>because he thought he'd just be laying around, like you said,

0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.400
<v Speaker 2>smoking cigarettes, being a prisoner. Yeah, and he would get

0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.439
<v Speaker 2>to study for GRE. He was about to enter grad school.

0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:03.040
<v Speaker 1>I see that.

0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:05.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, they said, no, you can't have your books.

0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:06.440
<v Speaker 1>Now. They didn'tive him anything, and.

0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:08.359
<v Speaker 2>This guy was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, Wait a minute,

0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:10.239
<v Speaker 2>this is day one. He's like whoa, whoa, whoa, Like,

0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.399
<v Speaker 2>I need those books. I'm taking the GRE basically leaving

0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:16.240
<v Speaker 2>here after two weeks and going to take the test,

0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:19.159
<v Speaker 2>like I've got to spend this two week studying. They're like,

0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.760
<v Speaker 2>you can't have your books. So he quickly saw that

0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:26.199
<v Speaker 2>the only way out was to fake this nervous breakdown.

0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:27.800
<v Speaker 1>And Billy Crudup went in and said, why is everyone

0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:30.560
<v Speaker 1>saying whoa whoa whoa? Only I can say whoa whoa

0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:36.440
<v Speaker 1>whoa whoa whoa whoa. Yeah, So we've kind of poo

0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:38.960
<v Speaker 1>pooed the two major findings from this study already.

0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:42.080
<v Speaker 2>So that's that's a huge deal, right, because again, the

0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:44.680
<v Speaker 2>idea is that if you put people any random people.

0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:47.920
<v Speaker 2>Remember these are just average, like middle middle class white.

0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:50.840
<v Speaker 1>Kids, which is another problem, right.

0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:52.639
<v Speaker 2>If you put if you put any well, you know

0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:55.880
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy one, that means everybody, Right, that's the whole world. Right,

0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:58.280
<v Speaker 2>If you put anybody in the world in this situation,

0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:01.080
<v Speaker 2>they're going to either turn evil or lose their marbles.

0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:05.560
<v Speaker 2>So those are the two findings. That's what everybody took

0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.119
<v Speaker 2>it as at first. It later came out, no, this

0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:11.040
<v Speaker 2>guy was acting, this guy was faking. So what else

0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:14.680
<v Speaker 2>do we have? Then, Well, we have this idea that

0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Zimbardo insinuated himself as part of the experiment and that

0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.720
<v Speaker 2>actually created the findings from the Stanford prison experiment.

0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:27.840
<v Speaker 1>So should we put a pin in that? Should we

0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:28.399
<v Speaker 1>talk about that?

0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:28.560
<v Speaker 2>Now?

0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:28.760
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:30.080
<v Speaker 2>No, I want to go. I want to go where

0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:30.560
<v Speaker 2>you want to go.

0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:32.199
<v Speaker 1>All right, let's put a pin in that then and

0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:34.159
<v Speaker 1>talk about a little bit more about what went on

0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:40.560
<v Speaker 1>that week. They had everything from visitation like you could

0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.040
<v Speaker 1>write a letter to your family or girlfriend or whoever

0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:46.160
<v Speaker 1>you want to come visit you to ask for visitation rights.

0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:48.640
<v Speaker 1>And the family came in and they did. They came

0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:51.040
<v Speaker 1>in and visited for an hour, and they were in

0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:54.399
<v Speaker 1>some cases parents were like, I don't know about this.

0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:57.680
<v Speaker 1>This is like this seems like a really weird thing.

0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:00.720
<v Speaker 1>And Zimbardo would be like, oh no, it's totally fine,

0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:03.159
<v Speaker 1>Like you know, they're psychologists. Yeah, like they want to

0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:05.600
<v Speaker 1>be here, like ask them and the the kids. You know.

0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:12.840
<v Speaker 1>They did say that they wanted to stay, okay, which

0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:14.200
<v Speaker 1>is which is important.

0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:17.119
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So what else is important is.

0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:19.000
<v Speaker 1>Like, no one in the visiting hour. I don't think

0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:20.280
<v Speaker 1>we're like, get me out of here.

0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:22.399
<v Speaker 1>They are like, no, this is all part of the

0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:26.400
<v Speaker 1>part of the act essentially, all right. They had parole

0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.680
<v Speaker 1>hearings inside the course of a week. Somehow they said

0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:33.280
<v Speaker 1>that if they they could be released, if they would

0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:36.600
<v Speaker 1>forfeit the money. And this is after I don't know

0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:40.560
<v Speaker 1>how many of the six days, but they could not

0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:43.560
<v Speaker 1>get paid if and be paroled if they went in

0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:45.080
<v Speaker 1>front of the parole board. They went in front of

0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:47.800
<v Speaker 1>the parole board, some of them did, and most of

0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:49.680
<v Speaker 1>the prisoners said that they would give up their money

0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:53.280
<v Speaker 1>in fact, and the parole members, like like I said,

0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:57.000
<v Speaker 1>they were the graduate assistants. Even had one former prisoner,

0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:02.120
<v Speaker 1>this guy that like was a fifteen year quentin yeah inmate,

0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.760
<v Speaker 1>fifteen or seventeen year inmate on the board that I

0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:08.159
<v Speaker 1>guess Zimbardo. I want to call him Zamboni.

0:24:08.400 --> 0:24:11.280
<v Speaker 2>So he actually was a friend of Jaffy's, the guy

0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:14.680
<v Speaker 2>who originally actually that's where he came as an undergrad.

0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:16.159
<v Speaker 2>So he brought him in on it.

0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:18.159
<v Speaker 1>Right, So he was on the parole board, and he

0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:20.840
<v Speaker 1>was kind of one of the ones, at least in

0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:23.120
<v Speaker 1>the film version that was kind of saying like, no,

0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:25.320
<v Speaker 1>this is like how it is, like, you should keep

0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:27.680
<v Speaker 1>it going, right, But I don't know how much of

0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:28.600
<v Speaker 1>that was dramatized.

0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:31.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't either. That's a That's one of the problems

0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:34.480
<v Speaker 2>with this is, you know, so much of the documentation

0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:36.919
<v Speaker 2>has been not released over the years, and when it

0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:40.360
<v Speaker 2>does get released, it contradicts the official line, and it's

0:24:40.560 --> 0:24:43.719
<v Speaker 2>very tough to separate truth from fiction, especially when you

0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:47.040
<v Speaker 2>introduce a Hollywood movie into the whole thing, just to

0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:49.880
<v Speaker 2>just to drive those nails in the coffin too. Yeah,

0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:50.800
<v Speaker 2>and so reality.

0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:53.000
<v Speaker 1>In fact, there's been a lot of in the year

0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:55.760
<v Speaker 1>since a lot of complaints that a lot of these

0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:58.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, kids were screaming, I want to go home,

0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:01.680
<v Speaker 1>I want to go home. And for his heart, Zimbardo said,

0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:05.760
<v Speaker 1>in the contract it says I want to exit the experiment,

0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:09.040
<v Speaker 1>as the official line to say, and they could have

0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:11.199
<v Speaker 1>gone home. And he was like, but you hear no

0:25:11.240 --> 0:25:13.119
<v Speaker 1>one ever said I want to exit the experiment. They

0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:15.640
<v Speaker 1>would say I want my mommy, or I'm going crazy,

0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:19.120
<v Speaker 1>or my god, please stop this, please stop this, right,

0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:22.840
<v Speaker 1>but they never said those exact words, this safe phrase, say, yeah,

0:25:22.880 --> 0:25:25.280
<v Speaker 1>the safe phrase. But it turns out that's bunk two.

0:25:25.400 --> 0:25:27.720
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, it turns out that if you look at

0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:30.920
<v Speaker 2>the contract that they had that he's referencing that say

0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:33.919
<v Speaker 2>the rules and everything in the agreement, there's no safe

0:25:33.920 --> 0:25:36.920
<v Speaker 2>word to be mentioned. Certainly doesn't say if you say

0:25:36.960 --> 0:25:39.760
<v Speaker 2>I want to quit the experiment, you get released from

0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:40.480
<v Speaker 2>the experiment.

0:25:40.600 --> 0:25:42.080
<v Speaker 1>So he's just flat out lying about that.

0:25:42.160 --> 0:25:44.640
<v Speaker 2>Then that's from what I understand. Yes, and what.

0:25:44.720 --> 0:25:45.960
<v Speaker 1>Article was this that you sent?

0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:51.359
<v Speaker 2>There's a really good takedown in medium called the The

0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Lifespan of a Lie.

0:25:53.520 --> 0:25:55.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a good one, and.

0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:58.600
<v Speaker 2>It's based on that titles based on a I think

0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:04.040
<v Speaker 2>a documentary by a documentary or book by a yeah,

0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:09.359
<v Speaker 2>French filmmaker which who titled his version The Birth of

0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:13.479
<v Speaker 2>a Lie. And it's basically about how the Stanford prison

0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:16.560
<v Speaker 2>experiment was just basically it was bunk from the get go,

0:26:16.640 --> 0:26:18.680
<v Speaker 2>which we'll kind of pick that apart in a little bit,

0:26:19.160 --> 0:26:23.920
<v Speaker 2>and that just fascinatingly has been perpetuated over again basically

0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:28.560
<v Speaker 2>fifty years. It just entered the cultural zeitgeist and just

0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:30.240
<v Speaker 2>stayed like an infection.

0:26:31.400 --> 0:26:33.760
<v Speaker 1>All Right. Some other things that happened to make it realistic.

0:26:33.800 --> 0:26:37.520
<v Speaker 1>They brought in a lawyer when parents asked for one,

0:26:38.119 --> 0:26:40.320
<v Speaker 1>and played along like it was real. They brought in

0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:44.560
<v Speaker 1>a chaplain who came in to speak to prisoners and

0:26:44.680 --> 0:26:50.840
<v Speaker 1>he played along with it too. They basically did everything

0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:52.879
<v Speaker 1>that you would think would happen in a real prison

0:26:54.359 --> 0:26:56.119
<v Speaker 1>on a slightly scaled down level.

0:26:56.240 --> 0:26:59.840
<v Speaker 2>Right, But the upshot of all of This is Zimbardo saying, like,

0:27:00.480 --> 0:27:03.280
<v Speaker 2>do you see what's going on here? Everybody? Yeah, Like,

0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:07.080
<v Speaker 2>I just put some guys in, like nine guys in

0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:09.400
<v Speaker 2>at a time, or twelve guys as guards, twelve guys

0:27:09.400 --> 0:27:14.159
<v Speaker 2>as prisoners, and their parents came for visiting hours, a

0:27:14.280 --> 0:27:18.399
<v Speaker 2>lawyer came. That's how real the simulated prison became in

0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:22.359
<v Speaker 2>people's minds. Just imagine what a real prison's like. Right, So,

0:27:23.359 --> 0:27:24.880
<v Speaker 2>and he was saying they could have left at any

0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:26.640
<v Speaker 2>time if they just said the safeword, and no one

0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:30.640
<v Speaker 2>ever said the safeboard. There is some evidence that these

0:27:30.680 --> 0:27:35.280
<v Speaker 2>people were basically kept there against their will, especially after

0:27:35.840 --> 0:27:41.600
<v Speaker 2>Douglas Corpy basically faked his emotional breakdown and then was

0:27:41.640 --> 0:27:47.520
<v Speaker 2>thrown into a broom closet and retaliation for it, that

0:27:47.880 --> 0:27:50.760
<v Speaker 2>he should have very very clearly should have been left

0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:53.720
<v Speaker 2>or allowed to leave, and to even be led to

0:27:53.760 --> 0:27:57.119
<v Speaker 2>think that you couldn't leave, which is apparently the idea

0:27:57.160 --> 0:28:01.200
<v Speaker 2>that spread throughout the prisoners. That would be like keeping

0:28:01.240 --> 0:28:02.359
<v Speaker 2>someone against their will.

0:28:02.600 --> 0:28:05.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and he did leave, but was supposed to agreed

0:28:05.040 --> 0:28:10.120
<v Speaker 1>to come back, supposedly to like play a different role

0:28:10.240 --> 0:28:12.440
<v Speaker 1>as a prisoner who like maybe escaped and came back,

0:28:12.480 --> 0:28:15.400
<v Speaker 1>I think, but didn't come back, right.

0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:19.560
<v Speaker 2>And I think five people were released early before the

0:28:20.000 --> 0:28:23.480
<v Speaker 2>whole experiment was called off. All prisoners. No guards left

0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:25.199
<v Speaker 2>the experiment, which is telling.

0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:27.240
<v Speaker 1>Yes, well, and they were working in shifts though, which

0:28:27.280 --> 0:28:27.800
<v Speaker 1>is important.

0:28:27.840 --> 0:28:30.720
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that is a big one too. But if you

0:28:30.800 --> 0:28:33.359
<v Speaker 2>consider that no one asked to be a guard, they

0:28:33.400 --> 0:28:35.600
<v Speaker 2>all asked to be prisoners, but then none of the

0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:39.360
<v Speaker 2>guards left the experiment, right to me, that's interesting on

0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:44.320
<v Speaker 2>its face, right, There's something to that, But the whole

0:28:44.320 --> 0:28:50.200
<v Speaker 2>thing just kind of falling apart after Zimbardo's girlfriend at

0:28:50.240 --> 0:28:55.400
<v Speaker 2>the time came the idea that up to this point,

0:28:55.600 --> 0:28:59.120
<v Speaker 2>these people had engaged in this fantasy and thought that

0:28:59.160 --> 0:29:02.400
<v Speaker 2>they couldn't leave, and they really could. That's controversial in

0:29:02.440 --> 0:29:05.920
<v Speaker 2>and of itself, because again there's evidence that they were

0:29:06.000 --> 0:29:09.800
<v Speaker 2>led to believe they couldn't leave, and that's different. That

0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:12.200
<v Speaker 2>changes things entirely.

0:29:12.480 --> 0:29:13.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so you.

0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:15.280
<v Speaker 2>Want to take another break and then pick this part

0:29:15.320 --> 0:29:15.680
<v Speaker 2>some more.

0:29:16.880 --> 0:29:40.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, let's do it. Kind of fun, all right, the

0:29:40.480 --> 0:29:41.840
<v Speaker 1>final takedown.

0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:44.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm waiting for. I'm waiting for Phillips Embardo to release

0:29:44.760 --> 0:29:47.120
<v Speaker 2>a book about like our Jackhammer episode.

0:29:48.160 --> 0:29:51.680
<v Speaker 1>That's fine, I would read it all right, so where

0:29:51.680 --> 0:29:55.680
<v Speaker 1>are we here. Basically, we're at the point where he

0:29:56.280 --> 0:29:59.440
<v Speaker 1>has endo the experiment and now we're dealing with the

0:29:59.560 --> 0:30:02.920
<v Speaker 1>fallout since nineteen seventy one and how this should be viewed.

0:30:03.160 --> 0:30:04.960
<v Speaker 2>One of the big things that came out of that

0:30:05.160 --> 0:30:10.400
<v Speaker 2>French book, The Birth of a Lie, is the filmmaker

0:30:10.960 --> 0:30:16.120
<v Speaker 2>unearthed a recording that was I don't know where he

0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:19.200
<v Speaker 2>found it, but they he found it and released the

0:30:19.360 --> 0:30:24.800
<v Speaker 2>transcript of it that clearly has if not Zimbardo, at

0:30:24.880 --> 0:30:30.360
<v Speaker 2>least Jaffy, definitely Jaffy coaching the guards. Yeah, to be

0:30:30.480 --> 0:30:34.000
<v Speaker 2>more brutal, Right, be a tough guard. Just think of

0:30:34.280 --> 0:30:35.960
<v Speaker 2>how the pigs do it, and do it like that,

0:30:36.280 --> 0:30:38.520
<v Speaker 2>I think is what the quote was, right, Yeah.

0:30:38.440 --> 0:30:40.200
<v Speaker 1>When the whole idea of this thing is to try

0:30:40.240 --> 0:30:42.880
<v Speaker 1>and prove that without any influence.

0:30:43.240 --> 0:30:46.040
<v Speaker 2>Yes, this is what happens. Right, So there's a couple

0:30:46.080 --> 0:30:49.080
<v Speaker 2>of things that happened. Methodologically, there's a lot of things

0:30:49.120 --> 0:30:52.560
<v Speaker 2>that happened. The moment they started coaching those guards. Number one,

0:30:52.920 --> 0:30:56.040
<v Speaker 2>they took any organicness out of their behavior. They were

0:30:56.120 --> 0:30:58.240
<v Speaker 2>then doing what they thought they were expected to do.

0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Like John Wayne, Yeah, for sure, just went over the top,

0:31:00.960 --> 0:31:04.840
<v Speaker 2>is what it was. And then number two, they made

0:31:04.880 --> 0:31:08.280
<v Speaker 2>them co experimenters. Like the whole thing was supposed to

0:31:08.280 --> 0:31:10.640
<v Speaker 2>be guards and prisoners, and we're going to watch as

0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:15.600
<v Speaker 2>test subjects or participants. And when you coach the guards,

0:31:16.040 --> 0:31:19.480
<v Speaker 2>you're they're co experimenters. Now, now the experiments entirely on

0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:22.640
<v Speaker 2>the on the prisoners, which you can say, okay, well,

0:31:22.680 --> 0:31:25.080
<v Speaker 2>then those findings still worked. Well, that gets thrown out

0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:26.800
<v Speaker 2>when you base the whole thing on a guy who

0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:30.560
<v Speaker 2>is faking, right, But but you you make the guards

0:31:30.840 --> 0:31:34.440
<v Speaker 2>co experimenters, and you just completely take out any objectivity

0:31:34.480 --> 0:31:38.320
<v Speaker 2>from this experiment. That's problem one with the methodology.

0:31:38.560 --> 0:31:40.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, and the fact we already mentioned that one of

0:31:41.040 --> 0:31:44.520
<v Speaker 1>the researchers was a warden and zim want to call

0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:49.960
<v Speaker 1>them Sambrano, that's fine, go ahead. Zimbardo Zamboni himself was

0:31:50.080 --> 0:31:52.760
<v Speaker 1>the superintendent, like the minute he decided to do that,

0:31:53.360 --> 0:31:55.680
<v Speaker 1>Like I looked up. I think he's like in his

0:31:55.760 --> 0:31:58.320
<v Speaker 1>late thirties when he did this. How did he not

0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:01.200
<v Speaker 1>like was he that bad and doing his job? How

0:32:01.240 --> 0:32:03.480
<v Speaker 1>did he not know? Like wait a minute, this will

0:32:03.480 --> 0:32:04.400
<v Speaker 1>taint the experiment.

0:32:04.520 --> 0:32:07.080
<v Speaker 2>Do you want to talk about why the people think

0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:11.080
<v Speaker 2>that he was so yeah, okay, so he was a

0:32:12.320 --> 0:32:15.120
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't I think still is a social activist for sure.

0:32:15.760 --> 0:32:19.160
<v Speaker 2>And he had decided, and I can't really disagree with him,

0:32:19.400 --> 0:32:23.240
<v Speaker 2>that prisons were brutal places where brutality lived, and that

0:32:23.360 --> 0:32:27.160
<v Speaker 2>they were inherently brutal. And so if you take somebody

0:32:27.240 --> 0:32:29.320
<v Speaker 2>and put them into this place, you're doing a real

0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:32.800
<v Speaker 2>disservice to humanity by throwing somebody in a brutal place

0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:33.800
<v Speaker 2>that you know is brutal.

0:32:33.880 --> 0:32:35.680
<v Speaker 1>So his aim was to get reformed to happen.

0:32:35.880 --> 0:32:37.800
<v Speaker 2>Yes, from the outset.

0:32:38.000 --> 0:32:39.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, I can't fault that, but you can't

0:32:39.920 --> 0:32:42.000
<v Speaker 1>call it a scientific experiment either.

0:32:42.200 --> 0:32:47.240
<v Speaker 2>No, And it actually supposedly backfired as well, because one

0:32:47.320 --> 0:32:51.840
<v Speaker 2>interpretation of his findings is that it's all or nothing

0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:57.040
<v Speaker 2>with prisons. Prisons are inherently brutal or you can't have them.

0:32:57.200 --> 0:32:59.720
<v Speaker 2>So either you have prisons and you have brutal prisons,

0:32:59.840 --> 0:33:02.680
<v Speaker 2>or you have no prisons. And so, faced with that

0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:06.600
<v Speaker 2>choice and with rising crime rates in the seventies, a

0:33:06.640 --> 0:33:09.400
<v Speaker 2>lot of people doubled down on getting tough and made

0:33:09.440 --> 0:33:12.160
<v Speaker 2>prisons even worse and built more prisons and said to yes,

0:33:12.480 --> 0:33:15.240
<v Speaker 2>we're not even going to try to like, reform you anymore.

0:33:15.760 --> 0:33:17.640
<v Speaker 2>We're just going to send you to these brutal places

0:33:17.880 --> 0:33:19.920
<v Speaker 2>that are inherently brutal and there's nothing we can do

0:33:20.000 --> 0:33:23.080
<v Speaker 2>about it. So it would have it would have backfired

0:33:23.160 --> 0:33:26.040
<v Speaker 2>in that sense, but in the idea that he was

0:33:26.120 --> 0:33:29.440
<v Speaker 2>doing something with the best interests of his fellow people

0:33:30.400 --> 0:33:33.320
<v Speaker 2>at heart. Again, like you said, it's tough to fault

0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:38.520
<v Speaker 2>him for that. He just really really gave social psychology

0:33:38.600 --> 0:33:39.280
<v Speaker 2>a black eye.

0:33:40.280 --> 0:33:42.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So one of the other things he did wrong,

0:33:42.760 --> 0:33:45.440
<v Speaker 1>and this one I just can't figure out either, is

0:33:45.680 --> 0:33:48.120
<v Speaker 1>he didn't have a control group and one of his

0:33:49.400 --> 0:33:51.200
<v Speaker 1>this guy wasn't in the experiment, but one of his

0:33:51.320 --> 0:33:55.280
<v Speaker 1>colleagues came by one day and was like, you know,

0:33:55.360 --> 0:33:55.960
<v Speaker 1>what's your.

0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Control what's your independent variable?

0:33:57.880 --> 0:34:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and he was like what, Yeah, He's like, I

0:34:01.040 --> 0:34:01.600
<v Speaker 1>don't have one.

0:34:01.840 --> 0:34:06.960
<v Speaker 2>So if you run an experiment of any sort, Grabster

0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:09.400
<v Speaker 2>uses a great analogy where if you're trying to figure

0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:12.640
<v Speaker 2>out what the effects of radiation are on tomatoes, you

0:34:12.760 --> 0:34:15.239
<v Speaker 2>pick a bunch of tomatoes, you wagh them, you check

0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:18.719
<v Speaker 2>them for color, you make sure that they're identical to

0:34:18.880 --> 0:34:21.719
<v Speaker 2>another set of tomatoes, So you have two sets of

0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:25.279
<v Speaker 2>basically identical tomatoes. One you radiate, one you do not,

0:34:25.719 --> 0:34:27.480
<v Speaker 2>and after a set amount of time you go back

0:34:27.560 --> 0:34:29.600
<v Speaker 2>and see what the differences are, and then you can

0:34:29.680 --> 0:34:33.760
<v Speaker 2>say probably that when you radiate tomatoes, these are the effects,

0:34:33.800 --> 0:34:36.479
<v Speaker 2>and the effects are the differences between the two. Same

0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:37.920
<v Speaker 2>thing with the prison experiment.

0:34:38.000 --> 0:34:41.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what would you have here? Two different cell blocks

0:34:41.960 --> 0:34:45.480
<v Speaker 1>and one that literally isn't coached and completely left alone.

0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:46.919
<v Speaker 2>That's what I would have done, for sure.

0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:49.799
<v Speaker 1>And then one where you're saying, hey, be brutal, and yeah,

0:34:49.960 --> 0:34:52.200
<v Speaker 1>we'll see if everyone falls into these roles exactly.

0:34:52.560 --> 0:34:54.920
<v Speaker 2>That would have been great. And actually some researchers in

0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:57.160
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and one, oh yeah, they did. They did

0:34:57.719 --> 0:35:01.320
<v Speaker 2>exactly that. They basically ran the experiment with just that

0:35:01.560 --> 0:35:06.080
<v Speaker 2>control group you suggested. It was called the BBC Prison Study.

0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:07.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Haslom and Reiker.

0:35:07.480 --> 0:35:10.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and basically they did the same thing. They they

0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:13.520
<v Speaker 2>did not do any coaching, they didn't do any intervention.

0:35:13.680 --> 0:35:16.759
<v Speaker 2>They did the thing exactly like you're supposed to, or

0:35:16.840 --> 0:35:20.600
<v Speaker 2>like Zimbardo should have from the outset, and they found

0:35:20.680 --> 0:35:23.680
<v Speaker 2>that again they made the control group to the original

0:35:23.719 --> 0:35:27.240
<v Speaker 2>Stanford prison experiment, they found that the exact opposite happened.

0:35:27.560 --> 0:35:31.360
<v Speaker 2>The prisoners stayed banded together, the guards were totally in

0:35:31.480 --> 0:35:37.080
<v Speaker 2>disarray and disorganized. The brutality never emerged, and there wasn't

0:35:37.080 --> 0:35:38.720
<v Speaker 2>any violence from Yeah, I understand.

0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:40.719
<v Speaker 1>And this is where it gets really scummy, if you

0:35:40.760 --> 0:35:46.240
<v Speaker 1>asked me. Zimbardo found out about this, and supposedly Haslman

0:35:46.320 --> 0:35:50.239
<v Speaker 1>Riker said they discovered he was privately writing editors to

0:35:50.600 --> 0:35:54.480
<v Speaker 1>keep them from getting published and claiming that they were fraudulent.

0:35:54.640 --> 0:35:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, in the journal that they released their findings, and

0:35:58.000 --> 0:36:03.439
<v Speaker 2>he wrote an appendage to their article and said, these

0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:06.120
<v Speaker 2>are they just don't even listen to these guys. I'm

0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:10.120
<v Speaker 2>Phillips Embardo man. So yeah, I thought that was pretty

0:36:10.120 --> 0:36:14.520
<v Speaker 2>scummy too if he did that, So you've got methodologically,

0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:20.080
<v Speaker 2>there's even more problems too. If in the original newspaper advertisement, chuck,

0:36:20.480 --> 0:36:24.960
<v Speaker 2>he said, prison experiment, the prison experiment, everybody sign up.

0:36:25.120 --> 0:36:27.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that was a problem in of itself. They shouldn't

0:36:27.080 --> 0:36:28.120
<v Speaker 1>have known what they were doing.

0:36:28.280 --> 0:36:30.919
<v Speaker 2>No, exactly until they showed up, right, So you're gonna

0:36:30.960 --> 0:36:34.120
<v Speaker 2>get a big wide swath of people, and then once

0:36:34.160 --> 0:36:36.680
<v Speaker 2>they find out what the experiment is, maybe they'll say

0:36:36.719 --> 0:36:40.920
<v Speaker 2>no thanks or whatever. But this was like attracting. A

0:36:41.000 --> 0:36:46.480
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and seven follow up study found narcissistic, hostile,

0:36:47.400 --> 0:36:51.520
<v Speaker 2>overly aggressive authoritarian types like flies to honey.

0:36:51.680 --> 0:36:53.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, or the opposite.

0:36:53.400 --> 0:36:55.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, that seems to be the case in this case.

0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:57.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which was in fact one of them was a

0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:01.360
<v Speaker 1>liberal activist who kind of purposely in there because he

0:37:01.440 --> 0:37:04.920
<v Speaker 1>thought maybe these findings could be used one day for

0:37:05.400 --> 0:37:06.040
<v Speaker 1>prison reform.

0:37:06.239 --> 0:37:09.879
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think also most of what I got from

0:37:09.960 --> 0:37:12.120
<v Speaker 2>Jaffy coaching the people to say, like, think about what

0:37:12.200 --> 0:37:15.040
<v Speaker 2>the pigs would do, and then do that, because we

0:37:15.160 --> 0:37:18.640
<v Speaker 2>really got to show them how brutal prisons are. I

0:37:18.719 --> 0:37:23.000
<v Speaker 2>think everybody who showed up basically was against prisons. But

0:37:23.160 --> 0:37:26.840
<v Speaker 2>whether you're against prisons or forum, you were automatically tainted

0:37:27.239 --> 0:37:30.680
<v Speaker 2>before you even showed up for the interview. Yeah, because

0:37:30.760 --> 0:37:33.920
<v Speaker 2>they wrote prison experiment in the ad. So from the

0:37:34.200 --> 0:37:37.160
<v Speaker 2>outset there was bias. There was no control group. It

0:37:37.280 --> 0:37:39.520
<v Speaker 2>attracted a bias cross section of people.

0:37:39.880 --> 0:37:42.000
<v Speaker 1>Zimbardo participated, he was.

0:37:42.000 --> 0:37:45.440
<v Speaker 2>A participant, and that actually chuck led to the second

0:37:45.719 --> 0:37:51.959
<v Speaker 2>set of findings that Zimbardo had influenced this and become

0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:57.920
<v Speaker 2>a participant himself. And here's the current interpretation of all

0:37:58.000 --> 0:38:00.759
<v Speaker 2>of it. Okay, this seems to be the current dojure

0:38:01.840 --> 0:38:05.920
<v Speaker 2>interpretation of the Stanford prison experiment, not that people are

0:38:06.000 --> 0:38:10.120
<v Speaker 2>inherently cruel and inherently will just crumble in the face

0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:15.160
<v Speaker 2>of authority, although that might still stand, but that people

0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:20.120
<v Speaker 2>will be are capable of cruelty if they're recruited by

0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:23.400
<v Speaker 2>an authority. Figure the second set, and there's actually been

0:38:23.520 --> 0:38:28.160
<v Speaker 2>three sets of interpretations. The second set was that Zimbardo

0:38:28.320 --> 0:38:33.000
<v Speaker 2>inserted himself and that it actually demonstrated what's called situationist theory.

0:38:33.880 --> 0:38:37.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that's basically that external circumstances are the drivers

0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:38.880
<v Speaker 1>of human behavior.

0:38:39.920 --> 0:38:42.640
<v Speaker 2>Right. So the point was not that people are inherently

0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:44.640
<v Speaker 2>cruel on an individual level, but.

0:38:44.760 --> 0:38:48.120
<v Speaker 1>The situation that they're put in. They will quickly find

0:38:48.160 --> 0:38:49.320
<v Speaker 1>those roles if.

0:38:49.520 --> 0:38:54.040
<v Speaker 2>There's a power structure above them that has normalized this

0:38:54.400 --> 0:38:57.680
<v Speaker 2>and is expecting them to fulfill those roles. And this

0:38:57.920 --> 0:39:00.880
<v Speaker 2>really tied in with you know this nineteen seventy one,

0:39:00.960 --> 0:39:04.160
<v Speaker 2>people were still really trying to figure out what the

0:39:04.239 --> 0:39:06.399
<v Speaker 2>heck could just happen with the Nazis. It was only

0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:09.480
<v Speaker 2>like twenty five twenty six years before. Yeah, so this

0:39:09.640 --> 0:39:13.479
<v Speaker 2>idea that this banality of evil, this made perfect sense

0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:17.239
<v Speaker 2>in that respect. Right, there was a bureaucracy that had

0:39:17.360 --> 0:39:21.320
<v Speaker 2>normalized evil and you were just following orders, right. That

0:39:21.440 --> 0:39:24.600
<v Speaker 2>was the second interpretation of the Stanford prison experiment.

0:39:24.760 --> 0:39:27.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, and not just the Nazis, but everything like

0:39:27.640 --> 0:39:31.480
<v Speaker 1>the Vietnam War, which was I mean, this was nineteen

0:39:31.520 --> 0:39:35.080
<v Speaker 1>seventy one, right, and like the Miley massacre, and you know,

0:39:35.160 --> 0:39:38.320
<v Speaker 1>I was just following orders. Like this tied in this

0:39:38.440 --> 0:39:41.600
<v Speaker 1>has his fingers in a lot of relevant politics.

0:39:41.160 --> 0:39:44.800
<v Speaker 2>Of the day, right, So apparently it also tied in

0:39:44.920 --> 0:39:48.080
<v Speaker 2>really well to Attica, and Zimbardo must have just couldn't

0:39:48.120 --> 0:39:50.919
<v Speaker 2>believe is his good fortune that there was a there's

0:39:51.040 --> 0:39:55.200
<v Speaker 2>lightius prison riot in American history. Happened like a couple

0:39:55.239 --> 0:39:57.279
<v Speaker 2>of weeks after he made the news in the New

0:39:57.400 --> 0:39:59.960
<v Speaker 2>York Times magazine with this journal arter or this article

0:40:00.239 --> 0:40:02.560
<v Speaker 2>that he wrote. Right, Yeah, but that actually played into

0:40:02.600 --> 0:40:05.640
<v Speaker 2>it too, because apparently, following orders, a lot of guards

0:40:05.760 --> 0:40:09.239
<v Speaker 2>just fired blindly into the tear gas smoke of this

0:40:09.440 --> 0:40:14.680
<v Speaker 2>prison riot and killed tons of unarmed prisoners and hostages.

0:40:15.320 --> 0:40:19.200
<v Speaker 2>So so Zimbard's like, Okay, that's fine, however we're going

0:40:19.239 --> 0:40:23.080
<v Speaker 2>to interpret this. I'm cool with that. But the third one.

0:40:23.200 --> 0:40:25.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm not quite sure that he would be cool with

0:40:26.040 --> 0:40:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the current.

0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:29.520
<v Speaker 1>One, which is bad science, I think.

0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:31.560
<v Speaker 2>So what I saw is that a lot of social

0:40:31.640 --> 0:40:34.200
<v Speaker 2>psychologists said, we've known this as bad science all along,

0:40:34.280 --> 0:40:38.239
<v Speaker 2>but the findings were really interesting and worthwhile, so we

0:40:38.280 --> 0:40:40.959
<v Speaker 2>didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The third

0:40:41.000 --> 0:40:46.400
<v Speaker 2>one is that Zimbardo inserted himself. And this what this

0:40:46.680 --> 0:40:51.440
<v Speaker 2>this study really showed was that people will engage in

0:40:51.520 --> 0:40:54.920
<v Speaker 2>acts of cruelty if there is a figure of authority

0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:58.400
<v Speaker 2>recruiting them to what they think is a righteous cause.

0:40:58.719 --> 0:41:03.040
<v Speaker 2>And in this case, it was Zimbardo making the guards

0:41:03.200 --> 0:41:06.400
<v Speaker 2>co experimenters by coaching them to be cruel right, and

0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:10.959
<v Speaker 2>in the name of prison reform. Ultimately, when they showed

0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:13.680
<v Speaker 2>the world what happens when you put normal people in

0:41:13.760 --> 0:41:14.560
<v Speaker 2>a prison situation.

0:41:14.760 --> 0:41:17.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which is what the John Wayne guy very much

0:41:17.600 --> 0:41:20.440
<v Speaker 1>has said all his life since then, is that this

0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:22.880
<v Speaker 1>is what they I thought they wanted was for me

0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:25.400
<v Speaker 1>to be a bad guard, right, so we could prove

0:41:26.880 --> 0:41:28.920
<v Speaker 1>ultimately that prisons need reform.

0:41:29.200 --> 0:41:32.000
<v Speaker 2>And that is why he's still complicit, because he's still

0:41:32.640 --> 0:41:36.920
<v Speaker 2>engaged in these acts of genuine cruelty against the prisoners

0:41:36.960 --> 0:41:39.560
<v Speaker 2>in the study, and that's why he should still feel

0:41:39.560 --> 0:41:41.560
<v Speaker 2>bad and still does feel bad. But he did it

0:41:41.719 --> 0:41:45.440
<v Speaker 2>because he was recruited in the name of this righteous

0:41:45.520 --> 0:41:47.719
<v Speaker 2>caused by somebody who was in authority.

0:41:47.880 --> 0:41:50.040
<v Speaker 1>So is this being taught this way in classes now?

0:41:50.320 --> 0:41:53.239
<v Speaker 2>I think that they, especially once it came out that

0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:57.040
<v Speaker 2>Zimbardo and at the very least his warden, a co experimenter,

0:41:57.239 --> 0:42:00.480
<v Speaker 2>was coaching them to do this, and that the organic

0:42:00.600 --> 0:42:04.040
<v Speaker 2>cruelty is just totally out the window. I think they

0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:05.879
<v Speaker 2>don't know what to do with it right now. They're

0:42:05.960 --> 0:42:08.680
<v Speaker 2>trying to figure it out, like how to get these

0:42:08.760 --> 0:42:10.680
<v Speaker 2>findings across or what to make of them.

0:42:11.000 --> 0:42:13.319
<v Speaker 1>Because one of these quotes from the article you sent

0:42:13.640 --> 0:42:16.120
<v Speaker 1>the guy said, I don't think it's scientific fraud in

0:42:16.160 --> 0:42:19.040
<v Speaker 1>the typical sense. It was never considered to be scientific.

0:42:19.120 --> 0:42:24.239
<v Speaker 1>It's typically represented in classrooms as a demonstration, not an experiment,

0:42:24.719 --> 0:42:28.440
<v Speaker 1>and as a notorious case of ethical malfeasance. So that's

0:42:28.440 --> 0:42:32.440
<v Speaker 1>almost a fourth takeaway is that it's an example of

0:42:32.560 --> 0:42:36.520
<v Speaker 1>how to not do a study correctly, right, which is interesting.

0:42:37.040 --> 0:42:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I mean methodologically inserting yourself, like lying about

0:42:41.440 --> 0:42:46.000
<v Speaker 2>the findings later on, or misinterpreting the results, or using

0:42:46.160 --> 0:42:48.440
<v Speaker 2>spin it's yeah, there's a lot here, but it.

0:42:48.520 --> 0:42:51.520
<v Speaker 1>Was approved by the Stanford Human Rights Subjects Review Committee

0:42:52.120 --> 0:42:55.240
<v Speaker 1>at the time. Those were Zimbardo's experiments who he presented

0:42:55.280 --> 0:42:59.840
<v Speaker 1>this to, and they're you know, he still says that

0:42:59.880 --> 0:43:00.640
<v Speaker 1>it was ethical.

0:43:01.000 --> 0:43:02.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, it was at the time under the guidelines, it

0:43:03.040 --> 0:43:05.759
<v Speaker 2>was ethical, but then after they changed the guidelines.

0:43:06.480 --> 0:43:08.719
<v Speaker 1>You couldn't do this today, no, or at least not

0:43:08.800 --> 0:43:10.000
<v Speaker 1>with like he did it.

0:43:10.840 --> 0:43:14.640
<v Speaker 2>So, I did you remember the very brief psychology is

0:43:14.719 --> 0:43:15.400
<v Speaker 2>not serious?

0:43:15.560 --> 0:43:16.000
<v Speaker 1>I watched that.

0:43:16.160 --> 0:43:18.200
<v Speaker 2>I did one on the Stanford prison experiment.

0:43:18.280 --> 0:43:19.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I watched that today.

0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:21.439
<v Speaker 2>Did you what did you think it was good? Thanks?

0:43:21.520 --> 0:43:22.720
<v Speaker 1>Man? Cute little background?

0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:26.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I thought so too. And let's see you got

0:43:26.680 --> 0:43:27.239
<v Speaker 2>anything else.

0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:30.160
<v Speaker 1>No, I mean, boy, I thought we were pretty scathing, but.

0:43:30.520 --> 0:43:33.840
<v Speaker 2>We were This is like vaping level scathing. This is

0:43:33.920 --> 0:43:36.239
<v Speaker 2>way worse than vaping. I'm sure the vapors are like going.

0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:37.600
<v Speaker 2>They were really hard on that guy.

0:43:37.920 --> 0:43:41.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. The movie, uh, you know, the documentary is probably

0:43:41.719 --> 0:43:45.160
<v Speaker 1>a little more accurate. But the movie wasn't bad. Yeah,

0:43:45.280 --> 0:43:47.960
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's not great, yeah, but it was okay.

0:43:48.000 --> 0:43:48.840
<v Speaker 1>It felt like a movie the.

0:43:48.840 --> 0:43:51.560
<v Speaker 2>Week, gotcha it's an airplane movie.

0:43:52.400 --> 0:43:54.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, watch it on your next flight. That's my recommendation.

0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Thanks buddy. Well, if you want to know more about

0:43:58.040 --> 0:44:01.680
<v Speaker 2>the Stanford prison experiment, type those words in the search

0:44:01.719 --> 0:44:03.759
<v Speaker 2>bar at houstuffworks dot com and it'll bring up this

0:44:03.880 --> 0:44:07.040
<v Speaker 2>grabster article. Since I said grabster, it's time for listener mail.

0:44:10.200 --> 0:44:12.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna call this beautiful landscaping. Hey, guys, I spent

0:44:12.680 --> 0:44:15.359
<v Speaker 1>the last two years fixing up the yard in our

0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:19.040
<v Speaker 1>house in Point Pleasant, Pennsylvania.

0:44:19.160 --> 0:44:20.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh that sounds like a pleasant place.

0:44:20.760 --> 0:44:23.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah it is. My husband actually introduced me your show

0:44:23.040 --> 0:44:25.399
<v Speaker 1>a few years back, and thank god he did, because

0:44:25.440 --> 0:44:27.919
<v Speaker 1>I've literally listened to you for hours and hours while

0:44:27.960 --> 0:44:28.640
<v Speaker 1>working in the yard.

0:44:28.800 --> 0:44:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Nice.

0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:31.160
<v Speaker 1>It was a huge undertaking. I have a more flexible

0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:33.960
<v Speaker 1>work schedule than he does, so I volunteered to absorb

0:44:34.040 --> 0:44:36.520
<v Speaker 1>most of the responsibility, although he did a lot of

0:44:36.560 --> 0:44:39.120
<v Speaker 1>heavy looking to I enjoyed the show so much I

0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:41.879
<v Speaker 1>stopped allowing myself to listen to it. To it any

0:44:41.960 --> 0:44:44.840
<v Speaker 1>other time. You were only allowed during yard work. This

0:44:44.960 --> 0:44:46.719
<v Speaker 1>made me much more ready to get outside and get

0:44:46.760 --> 0:44:48.959
<v Speaker 1>into it. You guys were with me while I carried

0:44:49.000 --> 0:44:52.040
<v Speaker 1>literally tons of redstone uphill and buckets hauling rocks for

0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:59.640
<v Speaker 1>a firing landing, planeted pecky sandra ferns and hostas in

0:44:59.719 --> 0:45:02.320
<v Speaker 1>the soil I've ever had to work with, and just

0:45:02.440 --> 0:45:03.960
<v Speaker 1>clearing away overgrowth.

0:45:03.600 --> 0:45:06.400
<v Speaker 2>Which it sounds like Tanya Harding training for the Olympics.

0:45:06.440 --> 0:45:09.800
<v Speaker 1>And that one montage which it turned out included a

0:45:09.840 --> 0:45:11.600
<v Speaker 1>fair amount of poison ivy. During it on I learned

0:45:11.600 --> 0:45:15.120
<v Speaker 1>about tiny adorable little creature called it's artigrade, the business

0:45:15.160 --> 0:45:19.080
<v Speaker 1>of head trains plants, the hookworm her favorite episode, and

0:45:19.160 --> 0:45:23.240
<v Speaker 1>some haunting information I cannot unher, such as you provided

0:45:23.320 --> 0:45:26.480
<v Speaker 1>in the bull fighting and drowning episodes. You're always very entertaining,

0:45:26.520 --> 0:45:29.080
<v Speaker 1>full of information. Even when I think it's boring, you

0:45:29.160 --> 0:45:31.680
<v Speaker 1>make it fun. There were times you had me loling

0:45:31.760 --> 0:45:35.080
<v Speaker 1>in my backyard alone and covered in dirt and sweat

0:45:35.160 --> 0:45:38.120
<v Speaker 1>like a crazy person. Attached her some pictures of the progress,

0:45:39.120 --> 0:45:43.719
<v Speaker 1>all from your climate controlled studio, that is from Sharon Prashinsky.

0:45:44.200 --> 0:45:47.839
<v Speaker 1>And Sharon, you did a great job. That is one

0:45:48.000 --> 0:45:50.960
<v Speaker 1>beautiful yard you got going. Yeah, for sure, it is lovely.

0:45:51.160 --> 0:45:53.319
<v Speaker 2>It is nice work. We're glad we could be there

0:45:53.360 --> 0:45:55.759
<v Speaker 2>with you to help you get up that hill.

0:45:56.000 --> 0:45:58.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and down the hill and then back up the

0:45:58.120 --> 0:45:59.560
<v Speaker 1>hill and back down the hill.

0:45:59.480 --> 0:46:02.520
<v Speaker 2>That's right, and then back up again. If you want

0:46:02.600 --> 0:46:03.920
<v Speaker 2>to get in touch with this so let us know

0:46:03.960 --> 0:46:05.839
<v Speaker 2>how we've helped you out. We love hearing that kind

0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:08.359
<v Speaker 2>of stuff. If you're Phillips Lombardo, we expect to hear

0:46:08.440 --> 0:46:12.560
<v Speaker 2>from your lawyer. And in the meantime, you can hang

0:46:12.600 --> 0:46:14.040
<v Speaker 2>out with us at our home on the web, Stuff

0:46:14.080 --> 0:46:15.759
<v Speaker 2>Youshould Do dot com, where you can find all of

0:46:15.800 --> 0:46:18.279
<v Speaker 2>our social links, and you can also send us an

0:46:18.320 --> 0:46:20.799
<v Speaker 2>email to Stuff podcast at HowStuffWorks dot com.

0:46:23.320 --> 0:46:26.160
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