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Speaker 1: Hi, everybody, Chuck here. Hope you're having a great day.

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Speaker 1: Hope you're having a great weekend. I'm thinking about you,

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Speaker 1: each one of you individually. I'm thinking about you. I

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Speaker 1: know where you live. I'm standing right behind you. Actually

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Speaker 1: I'm just kidding, but I hope you're doing well. This

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Speaker 1: one goes back to July fifth, twenty eighteen. It's a

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Speaker 1: good one. I think I picked this one because I

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Speaker 1: had just recently seen the movie on the Stanford Prison Experiment.

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Speaker 1: The movie is okay, it's not great, it's not bad,

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Speaker 1: it's fine. The podcast episode was pretty good from what

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Speaker 1: I remember though, But you should do both. If you've

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Speaker 1: seen the movie, listen to the show. If you listen

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Speaker 1: to the show, then give the movie a shot. It's

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Speaker 1: got Philly Crudup. He's always awesome. And it's called How

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Speaker 1: the Stanford Prison Experiment Worked. Where a friend becomes foe,

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Speaker 1: Bo becomes friend. What will happen in the end? Listen

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Speaker 1: in to find out. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know,

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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Speaker 2: there's Charles w Chuck Bryant.

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Speaker 1: Jerry's over there.

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Speaker 2: So why don't you pull up a chair, kick back

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Speaker 2: and tell us about your problems. Because this is psychology stuff.

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Speaker 1: We should just call this episode the Stanford Prison Experiment,

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Speaker 1: aka perhaps the hackiest experiment of all time. And it's

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Speaker 1: really not an experiment anyway.

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Speaker 2: No, but it's the most famous psychology experiment ever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I got kind of ticked off while I was

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Speaker 1: researching this. Yeah you should, man, because I used to

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Speaker 1: think it was cool, like, oh man, what a cool experiment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody's evil, it's core the core.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Then I researched it and I was like, this

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Speaker 1: is a bunch of bs, all of it. This is

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Speaker 1: one of the worst executed experiments I've ever heard of.

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Speaker 2: That is so funny because I while I was researching this,

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Speaker 2: I was like, I'm gonna have to keep it together

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Speaker 2: maybe at the end and I can really go off from.

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Speaker 1: Let's go off at the beginning.

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Speaker 2: That's great, man. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I watched the movie today.

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Speaker 2: Too, the twenty fifty one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how was it?

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Speaker 2: How was Billy Croud up? Because I loved him in

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Speaker 2: almost famous Uh.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm a fan, he's he was good, but like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, the movie A was pretty sensationalized. As

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Speaker 1: far as the violence, Like, they showed a lot of

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Speaker 1: straight up physical violence in the movie which supposedly didn't occur, right,

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Speaker 1: like beating them with billy clubs and hog tying them

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Speaker 1: and like like real violence.

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Speaker 2: Actually, these days I should say Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yollywood is what they call it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, there you go. Perfect. That's that's perfect. That sounds

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Speaker 2: like a Norman Rita's creation.

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Speaker 1: It might have been. And then what was I saying? Oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like it came down hard enough on

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Speaker 1: this Yahoo. What was a guy's name, Zimbardo? Yeah, Zimbardo

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Speaker 1: for just crafting a really poor doing a very poor

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Speaker 1: job at crafting is supposedly scientific experiment.

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Speaker 2: No, he was like the driving force behind that movie

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Speaker 2: getting made. Apparently he'd been trying to get a movie

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Speaker 2: made in America.

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Speaker 1: He seems to be a pretty fameless self promoter decades.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it's not a good quality in a social psychologist.

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Speaker 1: No, so we're going to.

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Speaker 2: See I guess we let the cat out of the bag.

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Speaker 2: But well, we shall see that. The Stanford prison experiment

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Speaker 2: one of the most famous experiments in the Annals of Psychology.

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Speaker 2: It's not an experiment at all. No, it's findings are

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Speaker 2: wide open to interpretation, and it was conducted by a

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Speaker 2: showman basically.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you know, it's a red flag when

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Speaker 1: you don't publish your findings in a medical journal. You

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Speaker 1: publish them in New York was it? New York Magazine?

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Speaker 2: New York Times magazine?

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Speaker 1: Hodgman's rag, Well, great rag, But that's not the place

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Speaker 1: to go publish scientific findings.

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Speaker 2: No peer reviewed journals are. Yeah, and they circumvented that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: for very good reasons. All right, so let's let's talk

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Speaker 2: about the outline. So let's go back to the beginning, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, back to the year of my birth, nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: one and Stanford at Stanford University, which is what Palo Alto.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, go fighting sequoias.

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Speaker 1: What is there?

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Speaker 2: They have like a big old sequoya on their logo.

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Speaker 2: I think it's like a and then they have a

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Speaker 2: sequoia with its fists up or is that? Oh, that's

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Speaker 2: Notre Dame I'm thinking of. I do feel like it

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Speaker 2: has sometimes Chuck's looking it up everybody, so let me stall.

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Speaker 1: It is a tree, the Stanford Tree.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what the mascot is, but there's definitely

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Speaker 2: a tree associated in No.

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Speaker 1: I looked it up, the Stanford Tree.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, cool.

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Speaker 1: And the first question is why is it a tree?

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Speaker 2: Uh huh, Well, what's the answer.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I'm sure it's just because of where

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Speaker 1: it is in California. But that doesn't answer the real question,

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Speaker 1: which is why would you have a tree?

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Speaker 2: Right Phillips Embardo sitting there like, quit stalling, get to

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Speaker 2: the heckling.

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Speaker 1: He's still around, Yeah, he is, so all right, We're

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Speaker 1: at Stanford. It's nineteen seventy one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're actually in the basement of one of the

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Speaker 2: buildings at Stanford University, I think like Campbell Hall or

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Speaker 2: something like that. And I think August of nineteen seventy one,

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Speaker 2: there were twenty four young men, almost all of them

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Speaker 2: when I think one of them was Asian American, and

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Speaker 2: they are doing something pretty bizarre in this basement in

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Speaker 2: August of nineteen seventy one. They've been divided into two groups,

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Speaker 2: guards and.

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Speaker 1: Prisoners, supposedly average kids.

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Speaker 2: Right, and they are acting out this basically role playing

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Speaker 2: game of guards.

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Speaker 1: Versus prisoners for fifteen bucks a day.

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Speaker 2: In a simulated prison in the basement of this hall

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Speaker 2: at Stanford University.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which would be about ninety three dollars today funded

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Speaker 1: by the US Office of Naval Research. Is that right?

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Speaker 2: So it would be ninety three bucks a day, and

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Speaker 2: it was originally gonna be two weeks. So I'm sure

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Speaker 2: some of these guys were like, heck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I kind of forgot what it

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Speaker 1: was like to be a college student. That'd be uh,

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Speaker 1: you know what between twelve and fourteen hundred bucks starting

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Speaker 1: off your summer.

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Speaker 2: It'd be about thirteen thirteen hundred and two dollars if

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Speaker 2: my quick math is correct.

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Speaker 1: Good scratch, Yeah, for a twenty one year old.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, two weeks on summer break.

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Speaker 1: That's right. So you were divided into two lots. Like

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Speaker 1: you said, they asked people supposedly what you wanted to be,

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Speaker 1: unless this was purely a movie creation, and they did

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Speaker 1: try and look up and try and find out the differences. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they supposedly asked them. In most everyone said, or

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Speaker 1: in fact everyone said prisoner. In one of the reactions

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Speaker 1: from who ended up being the bad guard, the guy said,

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Speaker 1: they asked him why, and he's like, because nobody likes guards, right,

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Speaker 1: It's like, why would anyone want to be a guard?

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Speaker 1: Because they thought we'll just be prisoners because they just

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Speaker 1: will lay around and smoke cigarettes.

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Speaker 2: Right, So we'll we'll and we'll kind of unpack what

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Speaker 2: that suggests later on.

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Speaker 1: Sure.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you've got these these guys and they're down

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Speaker 2: here for this experiment, and so coming at it from

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Speaker 2: the way, this is the popular interpretation of what happened

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Speaker 2: at the Stanford prison experiment. Okay, yes, you've got you've

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Speaker 2: got twelve guards and twelve prisoners.

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Speaker 1: The prisoners had been arrested, by the way, by the

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Speaker 1: real Palo Alto police. Yeah, they weren't told when, but

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Speaker 1: like the real cops came by, arrested each one of

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Speaker 1: them for you know, a variety of crimes.

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Speaker 2: Book them at the Palo Alto Police station, and then

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Speaker 2: transported them to the jail, the fake jail in at Stanford.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they call it the Stanford County Jail. And they

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Speaker 1: did a legit job. They put up signs, they had

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Speaker 1: these rooms decked out like jail cells, they had a hole.

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Speaker 1: They did a really believable job of making this seem

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Speaker 1: like a prison environment at least. Right.

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Speaker 2: So you've got these these prisoners who've been delivered. You've

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Speaker 2: got these guards who are waiting there for them. And

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Speaker 2: as as far as Imbardo's ever said, these these guards

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Speaker 2: were told, you have to protect the prison and everything

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Speaker 2: else is up to you. The only rule is there's

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Speaker 2: no physical punishment. We're just here to observe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, here's your uniforms, here's your sunglasses.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And then the prisoners were booked in with wearing smocks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no shoes, no underwear, yeah, naked under the smocks.

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Speaker 2: Chained at the ankles. And then they wore like those

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Speaker 2: stocking cap do rags. They had a panty on their

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Speaker 2: head to simulate their having their head shaved.

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Speaker 1: Right, and you know, this is this the early seventies,

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Speaker 1: so most of them had these big afros and long

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Speaker 1: hair and stuff under these pantees.

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Speaker 2: Right, So this is I At first, everything's pretty normal.

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Speaker 2: The guards don't quite know what to do. They're a

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Speaker 2: little timid. The prisoners apparently relished this immediately and started

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Speaker 2: like finding where the guard's boundaries were, and they started

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Speaker 2: to band together, and there was actually, I think on

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Speaker 2: day two they turnover. From day one to two, there

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Speaker 2: was a prisoner riot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean they, like you said, they were sort

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Speaker 1: of laughing at first, and I think we didn't mention

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Speaker 1: too and this is we'll end up being very, very problematic,

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Speaker 1: and the first sign that he didn't do a good job.

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Speaker 1: Simbardo actually acted as the superintendent of the prison, involved

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Speaker 1: himself in his own experiment and had one of it.

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Speaker 1: He had some graduate assistants that were assisting in the program.

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Speaker 1: They acted as parole board, and one of them was

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Speaker 1: the warden.

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Speaker 2: That was yeah, an undergrad. Actually were they undergrad assistant? Well,

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Speaker 2: the warden Jaffy, his last name was Jaffy. He was

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Speaker 2: an undergrad at the time, and actually he had come

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Speaker 2: up with the experiment on his own.

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Speaker 1: Oh he was the guy.

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Speaker 2: Huh huh. And then Zimbardo was like, this is a

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Speaker 2: really good idea. Let's do this for real. Imagine the press, right.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, like you said, it escalated pretty quickly. After

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Speaker 1: kind of laughing at first, these guards got into their roles,

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Speaker 1: to say the least, and really kind of started being

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Speaker 1: jerks in quick order, and after the prisoners were like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is kind of funny, like you're being you're not

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Speaker 1: being very cool. Yeah, and they were you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of smacked down and you know, made to do things

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Speaker 1: like push ups and jumping jacks, and they would withhold

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Speaker 1: food and eventually they would like take their beds away

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Speaker 1: from them and stuff like. It just got worse and worse,

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Speaker 1: and there was, I think, like you said, on day two,

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Speaker 1: an uprising. They got together, threw the cots off their

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Speaker 1: beds and through the bed frames against the door and

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Speaker 1: wouldn't let them in.

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Speaker 2: Right, So there was a prisoner riot. Yeah, that's pretty significant, right,

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Speaker 2: And what's equally significant is that the guards by the

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Speaker 2: second day started to show signs of like real cruelty

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Speaker 2: towards the prisoners. They started treating them very poorly. They

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Speaker 2: started engaging in basically acts of torture, like waking them

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Speaker 2: up randomly in the middle of the night, making them

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Speaker 2: get up, like you said, push ups, which is interpreted

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Speaker 2: as physical punishment because again, you couldn't hit them with

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Speaker 2: the rubber hose, you couldn't hit them with the baton,

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Speaker 2: you couldn't punch them. But if you make somebody do

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Speaker 2: a bunch of push ups, that's physical punishment too. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it was within the bounds apparently.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. They were referred to only by their prison numbers.

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Speaker 1: They would never say their names. They were made to memory.

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Speaker 1: Everyone else's prison number, and like they would line them

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Speaker 1: up and tell them to repeat their numbers for like

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Speaker 1: an hour if they didn't do it fast enough, and

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Speaker 1: then in reverse order they would get punishment. They would

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Speaker 1: do the kind of the classic moves of holding one

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Speaker 1: responsible for the punishment of others.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a big one, Like.

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Speaker 1: If you didn't make your bed good enough and no

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Speaker 1: one could go to sleep, stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: The guards also innovated the carrots here or there too.

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Speaker 2: They actually made one cell like a good cell, Like

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Speaker 2: they put a bed in it, yeah, with like betting.

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Speaker 2: If you were in that cell, you were eligible for

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Speaker 2: like good meals, yeah, better than what the other prisoners had.

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Speaker 2: And there were room for three inmates in there at

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Speaker 2: a time. And so it instilled this sense of competition

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Speaker 2: and skullduggery, I guess, backstabbery among the prisoners to curry

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Speaker 2: favor with the guards, like by informing on the other ones. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so that you could get a chance to be in

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Speaker 2: like the nice cell.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think even before that when they went

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Speaker 1: to do the when they went to stage the uprising,

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Speaker 1: I don't think there were three rooms of three, and

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Speaker 1: I think six of them. Two of the rooms participated

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Speaker 1: and one of the rooms did not. And because not

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Speaker 1: all the guys, you know, on not all the prisoners

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Speaker 1: like rebelled as much. Some of them just kind of

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Speaker 1: went along with it.

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Speaker 2: Interestingly, some of the guards did not descend into cruelty, right.

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Speaker 2: They actually some of them did, like favors, went out

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Speaker 2: of their way to be nice to the prisoners. But

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Speaker 2: and the grabster who wrote this article points out very significantly,

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Speaker 2: they didn't stand up to the cruel guards or officially

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Speaker 2: object to their behavior. Right, they went along with it.

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Speaker 1: But then they thought they had to.

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Speaker 2: In their own right, in their own way, they did

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Speaker 2: what they could to retain their humanity. So there are

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Speaker 2: two huge points, and one of them, there's one among

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Speaker 2: the guards and one among the prisoners. And the one

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Speaker 2: among the prisoners comes thirty six hours after the beginning

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Speaker 2: of the of the experiment, and this prison his name,

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Speaker 2: it would later be revealed, was Douglas Corpi. He had

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Speaker 2: an emotional breakdown, a nervous breakdown thirty six hours after

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Speaker 2: this experiment starts. One of the prisoners it becomes so

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Speaker 2: emotionally involved in this simulated prison at the cruelty the

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Speaker 2: simulated supposedly cruelty of the guards, that he had a

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Speaker 2: nervous breakdown well and had to be had to be

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Speaker 2: removed from the experiment. And this is like, this is

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Speaker 2: Embardo's This is the official line for the Stanford Prison experiment, right,

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Speaker 2: it has been for decades.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. He also said that one of them broke out

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Speaker 1: in a psychosomatic rash. There was all manner of various

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Speaker 1: levels of psychological breakdowns happening on.

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Speaker 2: The other side. The big star among the guards was

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Speaker 2: a guy named John Wayne who you referenced earlier.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, his name was Dave Eshelman, and he he was

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Speaker 1: the one who he was the ringleader. He's the one

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Speaker 1: that came out as the most brutal guard of them all,

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Speaker 1: and all the other guards kind of fell in line

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Speaker 1: behind him and took their cues from him.

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Speaker 2: So this whole thing's going on, This is crazy town

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Speaker 2: in this place. In six days, six days, this thing

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Speaker 2: descends into chaos.

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Speaker 1: Supposed to be two weeks, Yes.

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Speaker 2: There was. There was rumors that there was going to

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Speaker 2: be a breakout, and so they moved the experiment. There

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Speaker 2: were that that guy Douglas Corpi, who had a nervous

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Speaker 2: breakdown ended up getting put into the hole this broom

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Speaker 2: closet for I think overnight, and was finally released because

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Speaker 2: the the researchers that actually stepped in and said you

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Speaker 2: should should probably let him out. There was it was

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Speaker 2: just utter chaos. And then eventually Phillips Zimbardo's girlfriend at

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Speaker 2: the time, a woman named Christine Maslock.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, his wife to be. Oh she married him, huh yeah,

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Speaker 1: still married.

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Speaker 2: So she came and just dropped in to see how

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Speaker 2: things were going and was so outraged at what she

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Speaker 2: saw that she was like, you you so far beyond

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Speaker 2: the line. You have to stop this now, like this

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Speaker 2: is this is descended into chaos. You can't do this.

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Speaker 2: These people are treating these these prisoners horribly, Like how

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Speaker 2: are you letting this go on? Went okay, fine, and

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Speaker 2: so the next day he canceled the experiment again after

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Speaker 2: six days, and it was scheduled to go on for

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Speaker 2: two weeks. And so he comes out tells the world

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Speaker 2: in this New York Times magazine, guys, if I took you,

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Speaker 2: if I took you Josh, and I took you Chuck

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Speaker 2: and put you as guarden prisoner in even a simulated prison,

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Speaker 2: and put a smock on Josh and took his underwear

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Speaker 2: off and put a stocking on his head and gave

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Speaker 2: Chuck a baton and some glasses. Chuck would beat Josh

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Speaker 2: up well, and joshuauld probably have his spirit broken and

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Speaker 2: have a nervous breakdown. It's in everybody. Evil is in everybody. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: crumbling at the first sign of adversity is in everybody.

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Speaker 2: We're all just pathetic weaklings. Stanford Prison experiment, and he

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Speaker 2: ran off and said I'm famous.

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Speaker 1: All right, that's a great setup. So we'll take a

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Speaker 1: break here and come back and talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the more about the experiment and the realities of

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Speaker 1: it right after this. All right, So you've got John

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Speaker 1: Wayne in there. I don't think we mentioned that he

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Speaker 1: took on the persona of the prison boss and cool

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Speaker 1: hand Luke.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He did a fake Southern accent and everything and dove

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Speaker 1: right into this role. If you talk to Dave Eshelman today,

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Speaker 1: he will say he's very much on record of saying

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Speaker 1: I'm not some jerk, and I didn't get off on

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Speaker 1: being sadistic. He said, I wanted to do what they

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Speaker 1: paid me fifteen dollars a day to do, which was

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Speaker 1: to be a prison guard and to treat these guys poorly, right,

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Speaker 1: and so I create you know, he said, I did

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Speaker 1: some drama in high school and I literally acted this

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Speaker 1: part as well as I could.

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Speaker 2: That was I felt was expected and wanted from.

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Speaker 1: Me, right, And I put on this fake Southern accent.

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Speaker 1: And if you like ask friends and family today, they

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Speaker 1: would laugh at this because I'm really not this guy

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Speaker 1: at all, right, because he really comes off as as

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Speaker 1: a bit of a villain in this movie. For sure.

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Speaker 2: Well, he perpetrated real cruelty on other people, and we'll

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Speaker 2: get to that later. He said he.

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Speaker 1: Feels bad about it too, and.

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Speaker 2: He should, yeah, because the other people actually did suffer

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Speaker 2: under this guy's leadership as the ring leader of the

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Speaker 2: mean guards, right, like they wore pink on Wednesday. It

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Speaker 2: was terrible everywhere, right, So he really should feel bad

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Speaker 2: and apparently he does. I saw that all over the

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Speaker 2: place too, that he feels bad for it. But the

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Speaker 2: point is is that he has said, like this didn't

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Speaker 2: happen organically, like I I wasn't. I felt encouraged to

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Speaker 2: play this role.

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Speaker 1: Right. That's a big deal.

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Speaker 2: Because the findings of the Stanford Prison experiment say if

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Speaker 2: you take some people and say you're a guard.

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Speaker 1: Give him your empower, and you will turn evil.

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Speaker 2: They will turn evil within a day. A day they

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Speaker 2: said about this guy. And this guy's like, no, I was,

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Speaker 2: just like you said, doing my job what they were

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Speaker 2: paying me fifteen bucks a day for. Yeah, let's put

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Speaker 2: that one to the side. Let's go visit with Douglas Corpi,

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Speaker 2: who was the prisoner who in thirty six short hours

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Speaker 2: of this simulated prison experiment lost his marbles and had

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Speaker 2: a nervous breakdown and had to go home. Right, one

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Speaker 2: of the other two pillars of the findings that people

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Speaker 2: are either evil or crumble in the face of adversity

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Speaker 2: from the Stanford prison experiment, and again this is how

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Speaker 2: this thing's been taught for like fifty years.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, So Corpy comes out and says, I was

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Speaker 1: faking that, and I put on a big act so

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Speaker 1: I could get out of there because it sucked and

378
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Speaker 1: I didn't want to be there anymore. So I fake

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Speaker 1: like I was. And he like one of his quotes

380
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 1: was I don't have it here, But he basically said,

381
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,880
Speaker 1: like any trained clinician would have been able to see

382
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Speaker 1: right through this, Like when I hear the tapes years later,

383
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Speaker 1: it's like, I'm not an actor. I wasn't like apparently

384
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Speaker 1: the John wayn guy at least had been in like

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Speaker 1: high school.

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Speaker 2: Plays in college too, I think, yeah.

387
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Speaker 1: And he was like, I was not an actor. And

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Speaker 1: it was so clear to me looking back at these

389
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Speaker 1: tapes that I was faking.

390
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Speaker 2: It, faking a nervous breakdown.

391
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Speaker 1: Yeah, faking a nervous breakdown to get out of there. Right.

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Speaker 2: So the reason why he said later that he did

393
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Speaker 2: fake this nervous breakdown is because he took the job

394
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Speaker 2: because he thought he'd just be laying around, like you said,

395
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Speaker 2: smoking cigarettes, being a prisoner. Yeah, and he would get

396
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Speaker 2: to study for GRE. He was about to enter grad school.

397
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Speaker 1: I see that.

398
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,199
Speaker 2: Well, they said, no, you can't have your books.

399
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:06,440
Speaker 1: Now. They didn'tive him anything, and.

400
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 2: This guy was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, Wait a minute,

401
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,239
Speaker 2: this is day one. He's like whoa, whoa, whoa, Like,

402
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 2: I need those books. I'm taking the GRE basically leaving

403
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 2: here after two weeks and going to take the test,

404
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,159
Speaker 2: like I've got to spend this two week studying. They're like,

405
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 2: you can't have your books. So he quickly saw that

406
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:26,199
Speaker 2: the only way out was to fake this nervous breakdown.

407
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 1: And Billy Crudup went in and said, why is everyone

408
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Speaker 1: saying whoa whoa whoa? Only I can say whoa whoa

409
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 1: whoa whoa whoa whoa. Yeah, So we've kind of poo

410
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 1: pooed the two major findings from this study already.

411
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 2: So that's that's a huge deal, right, because again, the

412
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,680
Speaker 2: idea is that if you put people any random people.

413
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Speaker 2: Remember these are just average, like middle middle class white.

414
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Speaker 1: Kids, which is another problem, right.

415
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Speaker 2: If you put if you put any well, you know

416
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,880
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one, that means everybody, Right, that's the whole world. Right,

417
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 2: If you put anybody in the world in this situation,

418
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Speaker 2: they're going to either turn evil or lose their marbles.

419
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Speaker 2: So those are the two findings. That's what everybody took

420
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Speaker 2: it as at first. It later came out, no, this

421
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 2: guy was acting, this guy was faking. So what else

422
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 2: do we have? Then, Well, we have this idea that

423
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 2: Zimbardo insinuated himself as part of the experiment and that

424
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 2: actually created the findings from the Stanford prison experiment.

425
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Speaker 1: So should we put a pin in that? Should we

426
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 1: talk about that?

427
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 2: Now?

428
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 1: No?

429
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 2: No, I want to go. I want to go where

430
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 2: you want to go.

431
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,199
Speaker 1: All right, let's put a pin in that then and

432
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 1: talk about a little bit more about what went on

433
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: that week. They had everything from visitation like you could

434
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 1: write a letter to your family or girlfriend or whoever

435
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,160
Speaker 1: you want to come visit you to ask for visitation rights.

436
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 1: And the family came in and they did. They came

437
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: in and visited for an hour, and they were in

438
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,399
Speaker 1: some cases parents were like, I don't know about this.

439
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,680
Speaker 1: This is like this seems like a really weird thing.

440
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: And Zimbardo would be like, oh no, it's totally fine,

441
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 1: Like you know, they're psychologists. Yeah, like they want to

442
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 1: be here, like ask them and the the kids. You know.

443
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: They did say that they wanted to stay, okay, which

444
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 1: is which is important.

445
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 2: Okay, So what else is important is.

446
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: Like, no one in the visiting hour. I don't think

447
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: we're like, get me out of here.

448
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 2: Okay.

449
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 1: They are like, no, this is all part of the

450
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 1: part of the act essentially, all right. They had parole

451
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 1: hearings inside the course of a week. Somehow they said

452
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: that if they they could be released, if they would

453
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: forfeit the money. And this is after I don't know

454
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: how many of the six days, but they could not

455
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: get paid if and be paroled if they went in

456
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: front of the parole board. They went in front of

457
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: the parole board, some of them did, and most of

458
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: the prisoners said that they would give up their money

459
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: in fact, and the parole members, like like I said,

460
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: they were the graduate assistants. Even had one former prisoner,

461
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 1: this guy that like was a fifteen year quentin yeah inmate,

462
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 1: fifteen or seventeen year inmate on the board that I

463
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 1: guess Zimbardo. I want to call him Zamboni.

464
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 2: So he actually was a friend of Jaffy's, the guy

465
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 2: who originally actually that's where he came as an undergrad.

466
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 2: So he brought him in on it.

467
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 1: Right, So he was on the parole board, and he

468
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: was kind of one of the ones, at least in

469
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 1: the film version that was kind of saying like, no,

470
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: this is like how it is, like, you should keep

471
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 1: it going, right, But I don't know how much of

472
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: that was dramatized.

473
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: I don't either. That's a That's one of the problems

474
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 2: with this is, you know, so much of the documentation

475
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 2: has been not released over the years, and when it

476
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 2: does get released, it contradicts the official line, and it's

477
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,719
Speaker 2: very tough to separate truth from fiction, especially when you

478
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: introduce a Hollywood movie into the whole thing, just to

479
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 2: just to drive those nails in the coffin too. Yeah,

480
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: and so reality.

481
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: In fact, there's been a lot of in the year

482
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: since a lot of complaints that a lot of these

483
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: you know, kids were screaming, I want to go home,

484
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: I want to go home. And for his heart, Zimbardo said,

485
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: in the contract it says I want to exit the experiment,

486
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: as the official line to say, and they could have

487
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 1: gone home. And he was like, but you hear no

488
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: one ever said I want to exit the experiment. They

489
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 1: would say I want my mommy, or I'm going crazy,

490
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: or my god, please stop this, please stop this, right,

491
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: but they never said those exact words, this safe phrase, say, yeah,

492
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: the safe phrase. But it turns out that's bunk two.

493
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it turns out that if you look at

494
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 2: the contract that they had that he's referencing that say

495
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 2: the rules and everything in the agreement, there's no safe

496
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 2: word to be mentioned. Certainly doesn't say if you say

497
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 2: I want to quit the experiment, you get released from

498
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: the experiment.

499
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: So he's just flat out lying about that.

500
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 2: Then that's from what I understand. Yes, and what.

501
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: Article was this that you sent?

502
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 2: There's a really good takedown in medium called the The

503
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 2: Lifespan of a Lie.

504
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good one, and.

505
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: It's based on that titles based on a I think

506
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 2: a documentary by a documentary or book by a yeah,

507
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 2: French filmmaker which who titled his version The Birth of

508
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,479
Speaker 2: a Lie. And it's basically about how the Stanford prison

509
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: experiment was just basically it was bunk from the get go,

510
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 2: which we'll kind of pick that apart in a little bit,

511
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 2: and that just fascinatingly has been perpetuated over again basically

512
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 2: fifty years. It just entered the cultural zeitgeist and just

513
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 2: stayed like an infection.

514
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: All Right. Some other things that happened to make it realistic.

515
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: They brought in a lawyer when parents asked for one,

516
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: and played along like it was real. They brought in

517
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: a chaplain who came in to speak to prisoners and

518
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: he played along with it too. They basically did everything

519
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: that you would think would happen in a real prison

520
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: on a slightly scaled down level.

521
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 2: Right, But the upshot of all of This is Zimbardo saying, like,

522
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: do you see what's going on here? Everybody? Yeah, Like,

523
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: I just put some guys in, like nine guys in

524
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 2: at a time, or twelve guys as guards, twelve guys

525
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 2: as prisoners, and their parents came for visiting hours, a

526
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 2: lawyer came. That's how real the simulated prison became in

527
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: people's minds. Just imagine what a real prison's like. Right, So,

528
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 2: and he was saying they could have left at any

529
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 2: time if they just said the safeword, and no one

530
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 2: ever said the safeboard. There is some evidence that these

531
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: people were basically kept there against their will, especially after

532
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 2: Douglas Corpy basically faked his emotional breakdown and then was

533
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 2: thrown into a broom closet and retaliation for it, that

534
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: he should have very very clearly should have been left

535
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: or allowed to leave, and to even be led to

536
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: think that you couldn't leave, which is apparently the idea

537
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: that spread throughout the prisoners. That would be like keeping

538
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 2: someone against their will.

539
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he did leave, but was supposed to agreed

540
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 1: to come back, supposedly to like play a different role

541
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: as a prisoner who like maybe escaped and came back,

542
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 1: I think, but didn't come back, right.

543
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 2: And I think five people were released early before the

544
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 2: whole experiment was called off. All prisoners. No guards left

545
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 2: the experiment, which is telling.

546
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: Yes, well, and they were working in shifts though, which

547
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: is important.

548
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 2: Okay, that is a big one too. But if you

549
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: consider that no one asked to be a guard, they

550
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 2: all asked to be prisoners, but then none of the

551
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: guards left the experiment, right to me, that's interesting on

552
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: its face, right, There's something to that, But the whole

553
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 2: thing just kind of falling apart after Zimbardo's girlfriend at

554
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 2: the time came the idea that up to this point,

555
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: these people had engaged in this fantasy and thought that

556
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: they couldn't leave, and they really could. That's controversial in

557
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: and of itself, because again there's evidence that they were

558
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: led to believe they couldn't leave, and that's different. That

559
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: changes things entirely.

560
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you.

561
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: Want to take another break and then pick this part

562
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: some more.

563
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it. Kind of fun, all right, the

564
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: final takedown.

565
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: I'm waiting for. I'm waiting for Phillips Embardo to release

566
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: a book about like our Jackhammer episode.

567
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: That's fine, I would read it all right, so where

568
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: are we here. Basically, we're at the point where he

569
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: has endo the experiment and now we're dealing with the

570
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: fallout since nineteen seventy one and how this should be viewed.

571
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 2: One of the big things that came out of that

572
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: French book, The Birth of a Lie, is the filmmaker

573
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: unearthed a recording that was I don't know where he

574
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 2: found it, but they he found it and released the

575
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 2: transcript of it that clearly has if not Zimbardo, at

576
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: least Jaffy, definitely Jaffy coaching the guards. Yeah, to be

577
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 2: more brutal, Right, be a tough guard. Just think of

578
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: how the pigs do it, and do it like that,

579
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: I think is what the quote was, right, Yeah.

580
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: When the whole idea of this thing is to try

581
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: and prove that without any influence.

582
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: Yes, this is what happens. Right, So there's a couple

583
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: of things that happened. Methodologically, there's a lot of things

584
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: that happened. The moment they started coaching those guards. Number one,

585
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: they took any organicness out of their behavior. They were

586
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: then doing what they thought they were expected to do.

587
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: Like John Wayne, Yeah, for sure, just went over the top,

588
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: is what it was. And then number two, they made

589
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: them co experimenters. Like the whole thing was supposed to

590
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 2: be guards and prisoners, and we're going to watch as

591
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: test subjects or participants. And when you coach the guards,

592
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 2: you're they're co experimenters. Now, now the experiments entirely on

593
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 2: the on the prisoners, which you can say, okay, well,

594
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: then those findings still worked. Well, that gets thrown out

595
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: when you base the whole thing on a guy who

596
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: is faking, right, But but you you make the guards

597
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 2: co experimenters, and you just completely take out any objectivity

598
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 2: from this experiment. That's problem one with the methodology.

599
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: Well, and the fact we already mentioned that one of

600
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: the researchers was a warden and zim want to call

601
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: them Sambrano, that's fine, go ahead. Zimbardo Zamboni himself was

602
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: the superintendent, like the minute he decided to do that,

603
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: Like I looked up. I think he's like in his

604
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: late thirties when he did this. How did he not

605
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: like was he that bad and doing his job? How

606
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: did he not know? Like wait a minute, this will

607
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: taint the experiment.

608
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: Do you want to talk about why the people think

609
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: that he was so yeah, okay, so he was a

610
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: he wasn't I think still is a social activist for sure.

611
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: And he had decided, and I can't really disagree with him,

612
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 2: that prisons were brutal places where brutality lived, and that

613
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: they were inherently brutal. And so if you take somebody

614
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: and put them into this place, you're doing a real

615
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: disservice to humanity by throwing somebody in a brutal place

616
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: that you know is brutal.

617
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: So his aim was to get reformed to happen.

618
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 2: Yes, from the outset.

619
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I can't fault that, but you can't

620
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: call it a scientific experiment either.

621
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 2: No, And it actually supposedly backfired as well, because one

622
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: interpretation of his findings is that it's all or nothing

623
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: with prisons. Prisons are inherently brutal or you can't have them.

624
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 2: So either you have prisons and you have brutal prisons,

625
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: or you have no prisons. And so, faced with that

626
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: choice and with rising crime rates in the seventies, a

627
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: lot of people doubled down on getting tough and made

628
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: prisons even worse and built more prisons and said to yes,

629
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: we're not even going to try to like, reform you anymore.

630
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: We're just going to send you to these brutal places

631
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 2: that are inherently brutal and there's nothing we can do

632
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: about it. So it would have it would have backfired

633
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: in that sense, but in the idea that he was

634
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: doing something with the best interests of his fellow people

635
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: at heart. Again, like you said, it's tough to fault

636
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 2: him for that. He just really really gave social psychology

637
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 2: a black eye.

638
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the other things he did wrong,

639
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: and this one I just can't figure out either, is

640
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: he didn't have a control group and one of his

641
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: this guy wasn't in the experiment, but one of his

642
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: colleagues came by one day and was like, you know,

643
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: what's your.

644
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: Control what's your independent variable?

645
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he was like what, Yeah, He's like, I

646
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: don't have one.

647
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 2: So if you run an experiment of any sort, Grabster

648
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 2: uses a great analogy where if you're trying to figure

649
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 2: out what the effects of radiation are on tomatoes, you

650
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 2: pick a bunch of tomatoes, you wagh them, you check

651
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 2: them for color, you make sure that they're identical to

652
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: another set of tomatoes, So you have two sets of

653
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 2: basically identical tomatoes. One you radiate, one you do not,

654
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: and after a set amount of time you go back

655
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: and see what the differences are, and then you can

656
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 2: say probably that when you radiate tomatoes, these are the effects,

657
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,479
Speaker 2: and the effects are the differences between the two. Same

658
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: thing with the prison experiment.

659
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, what would you have here? Two different cell blocks

660
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: and one that literally isn't coached and completely left alone.

661
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:46,919
Speaker 2: That's what I would have done, for sure.

662
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: And then one where you're saying, hey, be brutal, and yeah,

663
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: we'll see if everyone falls into these roles exactly.

664
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 2: That would have been great. And actually some researchers in

665
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: two thousand and one, oh yeah, they did. They did

666
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 2: exactly that. They basically ran the experiment with just that

667
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: control group you suggested. It was called the BBC Prison Study.

668
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, Haslom and Reiker.

669
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, and basically they did the same thing. They they

670
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: did not do any coaching, they didn't do any intervention.

671
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 2: They did the thing exactly like you're supposed to, or

672
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: like Zimbardo should have from the outset, and they found

673
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 2: that again they made the control group to the original

674
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 2: Stanford prison experiment, they found that the exact opposite happened.

675
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 2: The prisoners stayed banded together, the guards were totally in

676
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: disarray and disorganized. The brutality never emerged, and there wasn't

677
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,720
Speaker 2: any violence from Yeah, I understand.

678
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: And this is where it gets really scummy, if you

679
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 1: asked me. Zimbardo found out about this, and supposedly Haslman

680
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: Riker said they discovered he was privately writing editors to

681
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: keep them from getting published and claiming that they were fraudulent.

682
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the journal that they released their findings, and

683
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:03,439
Speaker 2: he wrote an appendage to their article and said, these

684
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: are they just don't even listen to these guys. I'm

685
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 2: Phillips Embardo man. So yeah, I thought that was pretty

686
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: scummy too if he did that, So you've got methodologically,

687
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 2: there's even more problems too. If in the original newspaper advertisement, chuck,

688
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: he said, prison experiment, the prison experiment, everybody sign up.

689
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a problem in of itself. They shouldn't

690
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: have known what they were doing.

691
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,919
Speaker 2: No, exactly until they showed up, right, So you're gonna

692
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: get a big wide swath of people, and then once

693
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: they find out what the experiment is, maybe they'll say

694
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: no thanks or whatever. But this was like attracting. A

695
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven follow up study found narcissistic, hostile,

696
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: overly aggressive authoritarian types like flies to honey.

697
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, or the opposite.

698
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 2: Well, that seems to be the case in this case.

699
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, which was in fact one of them was a

700
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: liberal activist who kind of purposely in there because he

701
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: thought maybe these findings could be used one day for

702
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: prison reform.

703
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 2: Well, I think also most of what I got from

704
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: Jaffy coaching the people to say, like, think about what

705
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: the pigs would do, and then do that, because we

706
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 2: really got to show them how brutal prisons are. I

707
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: think everybody who showed up basically was against prisons. But

708
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 2: whether you're against prisons or forum, you were automatically tainted

709
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: before you even showed up for the interview. Yeah, because

710
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 2: they wrote prison experiment in the ad. So from the

711
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: outset there was bias. There was no control group. It

712
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 2: attracted a bias cross section of people.

713
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: Zimbardo participated, he was.

714
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 2: A participant, and that actually chuck led to the second

715
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:51,959
Speaker 2: set of findings that Zimbardo had influenced this and become

716
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 2: a participant himself. And here's the current interpretation of all

717
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 2: of it. Okay, this seems to be the current dojure

718
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: interpretation of the Stanford prison experiment, not that people are

719
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: inherently cruel and inherently will just crumble in the face

720
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 2: of authority, although that might still stand, but that people

721
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: will be are capable of cruelty if they're recruited by

722
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: an authority. Figure the second set, and there's actually been

723
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: three sets of interpretations. The second set was that Zimbardo

724
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 2: inserted himself and that it actually demonstrated what's called situationist theory.

725
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's basically that external circumstances are the drivers

726
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: of human behavior.

727
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: Right. So the point was not that people are inherently

728
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 2: cruel on an individual level, but.

729
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: The situation that they're put in. They will quickly find

730
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 1: those roles if.

731
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: There's a power structure above them that has normalized this

732
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 2: and is expecting them to fulfill those roles. And this

733
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 2: really tied in with you know this nineteen seventy one,

734
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 2: people were still really trying to figure out what the

735
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 2: heck could just happen with the Nazis. It was only

736
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 2: like twenty five twenty six years before. Yeah, so this

737
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,479
Speaker 2: idea that this banality of evil, this made perfect sense

738
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 2: in that respect. Right, there was a bureaucracy that had

739
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 2: normalized evil and you were just following orders, right. That

740
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: was the second interpretation of the Stanford prison experiment.

741
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and not just the Nazis, but everything like

742
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War, which was I mean, this was nineteen

743
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: seventy one, right, and like the Miley massacre, and you know,

744
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 1: I was just following orders. Like this tied in this

745
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: has his fingers in a lot of relevant politics.

746
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 2: Of the day, right, So apparently it also tied in

747
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: really well to Attica, and Zimbardo must have just couldn't

748
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 2: believe is his good fortune that there was a there's

749
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: lightius prison riot in American history. Happened like a couple

750
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 2: of weeks after he made the news in the New

751
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 2: York Times magazine with this journal arter or this article

752
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 2: that he wrote. Right, Yeah, but that actually played into

753
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: it too, because apparently, following orders, a lot of guards

754
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 2: just fired blindly into the tear gas smoke of this

755
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: prison riot and killed tons of unarmed prisoners and hostages.

756
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: So so Zimbard's like, Okay, that's fine, however we're going

757
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 2: to interpret this. I'm cool with that. But the third one.

758
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure that he would be cool with

759
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 2: the current.

760
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: One, which is bad science, I think.

761
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: So what I saw is that a lot of social

762
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 2: psychologists said, we've known this as bad science all along,

763
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 2: but the findings were really interesting and worthwhile, so we

764
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,959
Speaker 2: didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The third

765
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 2: one is that Zimbardo inserted himself. And this what this

766
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: this study really showed was that people will engage in

767
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: acts of cruelty if there is a figure of authority

768
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 2: recruiting them to what they think is a righteous cause.

769
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 2: And in this case, it was Zimbardo making the guards

770
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 2: co experimenters by coaching them to be cruel right, and

771
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,959
Speaker 2: in the name of prison reform. Ultimately, when they showed

772
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 2: the world what happens when you put normal people in

773
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 2: a prison situation.

774
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is what the John Wayne guy very much

775
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: has said all his life since then, is that this

776
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: is what they I thought they wanted was for me

777
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: to be a bad guard, right, so we could prove

778
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: ultimately that prisons need reform.

779
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 2: And that is why he's still complicit, because he's still

780
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 2: engaged in these acts of genuine cruelty against the prisoners

781
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 2: in the study, and that's why he should still feel

782
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 2: bad and still does feel bad. But he did it

783
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 2: because he was recruited in the name of this righteous

784
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 2: caused by somebody who was in authority.

785
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: So is this being taught this way in classes now?

786
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 2: I think that they, especially once it came out that

787
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: Zimbardo and at the very least his warden, a co experimenter,

788
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 2: was coaching them to do this, and that the organic

789
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 2: cruelty is just totally out the window. I think they

790
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,879
Speaker 2: don't know what to do with it right now. They're

791
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 2: trying to figure it out, like how to get these

792
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: findings across or what to make of them.

793
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: Because one of these quotes from the article you sent

794
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: the guy said, I don't think it's scientific fraud in

795
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: the typical sense. It was never considered to be scientific.

796
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: It's typically represented in classrooms as a demonstration, not an experiment,

797
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: and as a notorious case of ethical malfeasance. So that's

798
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: almost a fourth takeaway is that it's an example of

799
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: how to not do a study correctly, right, which is interesting.

800
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean methodologically inserting yourself, like lying about

801
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: the findings later on, or misinterpreting the results, or using

802
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: spin it's yeah, there's a lot here, but it.

803
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: Was approved by the Stanford Human Rights Subjects Review Committee

804
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,240
Speaker 1: at the time. Those were Zimbardo's experiments who he presented

805
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: this to, and they're you know, he still says that

806
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: it was ethical.

807
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 2: Well, it was at the time under the guidelines, it

808
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 2: was ethical, but then after they changed the guidelines.

809
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: You couldn't do this today, no, or at least not

810
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: with like he did it.

811
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: So, I did you remember the very brief psychology is

812
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 2: not serious?

813
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: I watched that.

814
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 2: I did one on the Stanford prison experiment.

815
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I watched that today.

816
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,439
Speaker 2: Did you what did you think it was good? Thanks?

817
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 1: Man? Cute little background?

818
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought so too. And let's see you got

819
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 2: anything else.

820
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: No, I mean, boy, I thought we were pretty scathing, but.

821
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 2: We were This is like vaping level scathing. This is

822
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 2: way worse than vaping. I'm sure the vapors are like going.

823
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: They were really hard on that guy.

824
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. The movie, uh, you know, the documentary is probably

825
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: a little more accurate. But the movie wasn't bad. Yeah,

826
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: I mean it's not great, yeah, but it was okay.

827
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: It felt like a movie the.

828
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: Week, gotcha it's an airplane movie.

829
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, watch it on your next flight. That's my recommendation.

830
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 2: Thanks buddy. Well, if you want to know more about

831
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 2: the Stanford prison experiment, type those words in the search

832
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 2: bar at houstuffworks dot com and it'll bring up this

833
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: grabster article. Since I said grabster, it's time for listener mail.

834
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this beautiful landscaping. Hey, guys, I spent

835
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 1: the last two years fixing up the yard in our

836
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: house in Point Pleasant, Pennsylvania.

837
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: Oh that sounds like a pleasant place.

838
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: Yeah it is. My husband actually introduced me your show

839
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 1: a few years back, and thank god he did, because

840
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,919
Speaker 1: I've literally listened to you for hours and hours while

841
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: working in the yard.

842
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: Nice.

843
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: It was a huge undertaking. I have a more flexible

844
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: work schedule than he does, so I volunteered to absorb

845
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: most of the responsibility, although he did a lot of

846
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: heavy looking to I enjoyed the show so much I

847
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 1: stopped allowing myself to listen to it. To it any

848
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: other time. You were only allowed during yard work. This

849
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: made me much more ready to get outside and get

850
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,959
Speaker 1: into it. You guys were with me while I carried

851
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: literally tons of redstone uphill and buckets hauling rocks for

852
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: a firing landing, planeted pecky sandra ferns and hostas in

853
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 1: the soil I've ever had to work with, and just

854
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: clearing away overgrowth.

855
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 2: Which it sounds like Tanya Harding training for the Olympics.

856
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 1: And that one montage which it turned out included a

857
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: fair amount of poison ivy. During it on I learned

858
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: about tiny adorable little creature called it's artigrade, the business

859
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: of head trains plants, the hookworm her favorite episode, and

860
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 1: some haunting information I cannot unher, such as you provided

861
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: in the bull fighting and drowning episodes. You're always very entertaining,

862
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: full of information. Even when I think it's boring, you

863
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: make it fun. There were times you had me loling

864
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: in my backyard alone and covered in dirt and sweat

865
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: like a crazy person. Attached her some pictures of the progress,

866
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: all from your climate controlled studio, that is from Sharon Prashinsky.

867
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 1: And Sharon, you did a great job. That is one

868
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: beautiful yard you got going. Yeah, for sure, it is lovely.

869
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 2: It is nice work. We're glad we could be there

870
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 2: with you to help you get up that hill.

871
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and down the hill and then back up the

872
00:45:58,120 --> 00:45:59,560
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