1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to today's edition of the Clay, Travis and Buck 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: Sexton Show podcast. 3 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 2: All right, third hour, Clay and Buck kicks off right now. 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 2: Our friend Andy McCarthy joins us. He is at National Review, 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 2: a Fox News contributor for federal prosecutor, and he is 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 2: in Chicago right now watching his son play baseball. So 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 2: I'm sure Clay is going to have some baseball related 8 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: questions for you, or you know, little league questions, Andy, Buck, 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: I Ken, and thank you, thank you for being with us. 10 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 2: If I can start eighty three million dollar judgment against Trump, 11 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 2: we kind of want you to give us your your 12 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: just your top line on that and we'll get to 13 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: some of these other legal things. It's just getting crazy, 14 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 2: isn't it, Andy? I mean, eighty three million dollar defamation judgment? 15 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 2: How do you how does this stuff? How can the 16 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: system be taken seriously when it's so preposterous? 17 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the best way to look at it 18 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 3: is the first of these two trials, the issue of 19 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 3: sexual assault was actually on the table for the jury 20 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 3: to consider, and they found it, but they awarded two 21 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 3: million dollars for it, and then looked at the defamation 22 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 3: and said three million more so it was five million. 23 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 3: So you have a case where the allegedly horrific thing 24 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 3: that happened was at issue. The jury found it was 25 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,199 Speaker 3: proved at least to their satisfaction on a low civil 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 3: standard of proof, but gave a very modest award, which 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 3: I think is testimony to the fact that you know 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 3: it's a shaky story without a lot of factual support. 29 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 3: Then you get to the second trial, where sexual assault 30 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 3: is not on the table. It's simply a question of 31 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 3: damages for defamation, including one act of defamation that the 32 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 3: jury actually considered but didn't have to vote on in 33 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 3: the first trial. And it's eighty three million dollars. You 34 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 3: don't even have like the sexual assault involved in the case, 35 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 3: and it's eighty three million dollars. Very i'd say impossible 36 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: to square, but certainly very hard to square. 37 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 4: So what do you think happens there? We got asked 38 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 4: that question a lot. Obviously, Trump could negotiate alongside of 39 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 4: Egene Carroll's attorneys. Sometimes you see when somebody you well 40 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 4: know and if you bought, they are not familiar. If 41 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 4: a jury gives an outlandish verdict. A lot of times 42 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 4: the two lawyers have already set a ceiling and a 43 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 4: floor by which they say, hey, we're not going over 44 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 4: this number. We're not going below this number that obviously 45 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 4: didn't happen here. Do you think they say, hey, we'll 46 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 4: take twenty million and Trump says okay? Do you think 47 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 4: the appeal just goes on forever? And I mean, Andy, 48 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 4: from a pure legal perspective, here's what I can't get past. 49 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 4: And I'm curious how you would analyze this. Even leaving 50 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 4: Trump aside, he was found liable for defamation based on 51 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 4: in this second trial comments that he made in twenty 52 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 4: nineteen before there had been any verdict rendered in the 53 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 4: first civil trial. So this to me feels almost like 54 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 4: a floating defamation. He didn't to deny the verdict of 55 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 4: the first trial. It feels to me like the story 56 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 4: is being reported as if Trump made comments. And I 57 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 4: believe she sued on subsequent comments, right, and that's a 58 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 4: different story. But I don't understand how you can defame 59 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 4: someone for a trial verdict that hasn't happened yet. Does 60 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 4: that make sense to you? It seems very wonky and 61 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 4: wacky purely from a procedural perspective, Well. 62 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 3: It's procedurally confusing Clay because the twenty nineteen defamation was 63 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 3: tied up in a pellet litigation over whether he had 64 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 3: immunity for it because he made the statement while he 65 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 3: was president. And here is where I think the court 66 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 3: made an error that I think the Appeals Court is 67 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 3: going to look very hard at, and that is Trump 68 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 3: only wanted to have one trial here, yeah, and Judge 69 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 3: Applin insisted on having two. So I do fault Trump 70 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 3: for not contesting the first trial, because you know, look, 71 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 3: if you're a defendant in a civil trial and you 72 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 3: don't contest, it's not like a criminal trial. The jury 73 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 3: gets told that they can draw an inference against you 74 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 3: for not testifying, right, so you're almost assured if you 75 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: don't participate, to lose. And any good lawyer should have 76 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 3: told them, you know, look, if you lose here in 77 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 3: the next trial, they have this doctrine that's called collateral estoppel, 78 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 3: and you won't be able to relitigate. You know, he 79 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 3: should have participated in the first trial. But that said, 80 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 3: it should only have been one trial. And sure maybe 81 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 3: they would have been a second one anyway, because if 82 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 3: he kept defaming her, you know, she was going to 83 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 3: keep seeing him, and at some point they would have 84 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 3: been a second trial. But it's really Kaplin's fault that 85 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 3: there were two trials and the result of how Trump 86 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: handled it, he really didn't have a defense in the 87 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 3: second trial. So it was like, I think, this is 88 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 3: like a human thing more than an than a legal thing. 89 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 3: But I've always thought there's something really cathartic for a 90 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 3: jury in finding someone guilty or finding against somebody on 91 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 3: a civil tour. And the effect of that is to 92 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 3: kind of depress the damages, Like you think that you've 93 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 3: already struck a blow by saying the guy did it, 94 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 3: and that has a moderating effect, I think on damages, 95 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 3: whereas here they didn't get to do that. This jury 96 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 3: the only thing, the only way if they decided Trump 97 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 3: was in the wrong, the only way they could slam 98 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 3: him was with damages, and they really did. And on 99 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 3: your first question, I think this isn't a normal case. 100 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 3: I think you're right that in a normal case they 101 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 3: probably negotiate an amount and like everybody goes home. But 102 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 3: there's a political component to this, And because it's not 103 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: a criminal case, Trump has to put up the money 104 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 3: in order to appeal. He doesn't have to pay it 105 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 3: to Carol, but they have to pay it into an 106 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 3: escrow account. And I think part of what's going on 107 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 3: here is if you think about this case and then 108 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 3: you think about what's coming with this judge and goern decision. 109 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 3: When he gives whatever he's going to give on the 110 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 3: civil fraud case, where the state is asking for three 111 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 3: hundred and seventy million dollars, that's going to tie up 112 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 3: a lot of trunk. That's half a billion dollars. Yeah, 113 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 3: that's going to be tied up for a couple of 114 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 3: years while he appeals Andy. 115 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 2: And we haven't even gotten to the criminal stuff. And 116 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: I want to spend more time with you with you 117 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 2: on that too. But the so the civil stuff, it 118 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,679 Speaker 2: sounds like they're draining his resources and his time and 119 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 2: and there's just all and also they're just the optics 120 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 2: of going into court and this jury found against him 121 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 2: and all this stuff on the criminal side of things, though, 122 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: what is the latest. I know we've talked to you 123 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 2: about this a bunch. We always look at it seems 124 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 2: first and foremost the January sixth trial in DC, because 125 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: that's the one that could be the most politically damaging. 126 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 4: According to the polls. Does it look like that's going 127 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 4: to happen. 128 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 3: Well, it looks to me like it can happen buck 129 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 3: until at least the summer. And then, to me, if 130 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 3: this is where I think I've been wrong all along, 131 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 3: I've thought that it would be so unseemly to subject 132 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 3: him to a two to three month criminal trial as 133 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 3: it gets really close to the election, that there was 134 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 3: like a certain date that if they couldn't start by 135 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 3: like X date, they wouldn't start. I now think I 136 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 3: was wrong about that, because they've blown past every single 137 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 3: norm you can imagine to get this guy. And I 138 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 3: just think if the you know, if a tease up 139 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 3: that they can't get the trial until say mid July 140 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 3: or early August, I think they're so determined to get 141 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 3: that case to trial they would try to push it 142 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 3: to trial, even though it's two to three months, and 143 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 3: even though in criminal trials, unlike civil trials, the defendant 144 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 3: has to be pre an every day. So you know, 145 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 3: I hope I'm wrong about that, but I don't think 146 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 3: anything would stop these guys if they thought they could 147 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 3: get that case to trial. 148 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 4: Okay, so Andy, let's go into the time specifically, because This, 149 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 4: to me is the crux of maybe the twenty twenty 150 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 4: four campaign in general. Initially they were going to try 151 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 4: to start the jack Smith case on March fourth, that's 152 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 4: the day before Super Tuesday. There's zero percent chance that 153 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 4: that's going to happen. Right, We're at February now. We've 154 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 4: been saying on this show from the moment the Supreme 155 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 4: Court took the case that dealt with part of half 156 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 4: of the charges on January sixth. Supreme Court can wait 157 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 4: until late June if they want to to issue an 158 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 4: opinion there. I think would be very hard to start 159 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 4: before the Supreme Court has ruled on that, to say 160 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 4: nothing of the presidential powers argument, which is currently pending 161 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 4: before the DC Circuit and has everything frozen there. Right, 162 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 4: Supreme Court can sell take that up. Trump's going to 163 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 4: appeal there. I now think that this New York City 164 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 4: Alvin Bragg case may be the first to go to trial, 165 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 4: and that the Jack Smith case may or may not 166 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 4: end up happening. If you were setting the over under 167 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 4: and I know this is complicated. I know we got 168 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 4: nine months until the election day basically sitting right now, 169 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 4: how many cases do you think of these criminal nature 170 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 4: are going to be able to be completed, I mean 171 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 4: completed jury, full verdict before everybody officially votes. I think 172 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 4: election day is November fifth, if I've got that right. 173 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 4: For twenty twenty four. If you were setting an over 174 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 4: under right now, what would you make that number. 175 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 3: I'm still going to say one. And the reason I'm 176 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 3: going to say one is even though I think you're 177 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 3: right that the Brag case could get to trial and 178 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 3: that's a shorter one. I you know, maybe I'm fooling 179 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 3: myself on this, but I if I'm the Democrats, I 180 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 3: don't want to start with that one. I agree he 181 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 3: could actually beat that case, so they haven't been taking. 182 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 4: And also, by the way, I think I'm curious Andy 183 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 4: sorready cut you off. I think Buck and I have 184 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 4: been talking about this on the show. I think a 185 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 4: lot of people see all of these New York City 186 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 4: cases as just kind of a big gob the glob 187 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 4: that's all connected, even though some of them are civil, 188 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 4: some of them are business related, some of them are 189 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 4: sexual assault relied in the overall New York procedural shuffle. 190 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 4: Do you agree on that front too, not to mention 191 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 4: the charges are less significant. 192 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I would put it this way, Clay, I think 193 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 3: it's a no lose for Trump and a potential bonanza. 194 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 3: I think if if he loses the case, exactly what 195 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 3: you said is true, it just like goes into the ether. 196 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 3: It's another New York jury that had it in for him, 197 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 3: or you know whatever. But if he beats the case 198 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 3: in Manhattan, which he could do because it's such a 199 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 3: stupid case, that's going to discredit everything else in the 200 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 3: law fair campaign, and that would really be a cup 201 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 3: for him. 202 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 4: I think one other question here, we'll do it. One 203 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 4: other question that I haven't heard anybody else ask or 204 00:10:58,320 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 4: talk about. And you're an expert, by the way, God 205 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 4: look to your son in this place. For the University 206 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,599 Speaker 4: of Chicago. I believe that's got to be amazing, incredible 207 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 4: school to have a kid at that supports free speech, 208 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 4: by the way, and also to have a kid playing 209 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 4: in college baseball. I'm sure you love going to those games. 210 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 4: That's outstanding, and hopefully it helps to defray the pain 211 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 4: of your Mets never having a chance to beat my braves. 212 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 4: But Andy, one thing that I'm not hearing anybody ask, 213 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 4: I'm curious if you've thought about this at all. South 214 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 4: Florida has been under the radar. What if South Florida 215 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 4: decides to jump ahead of jan six because they know 216 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 4: the Supreme Court is not going to rule until probably June. 217 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 4: And there are many different complexities there not as many, 218 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 4: it doesn't seem actual complexities with the South Florida case 219 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 4: that could keep the Jack Smith case that I think 220 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 4: Democrats want to be the focal point, which is the 221 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 4: one in DC. Is it possible if there's too many 222 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 4: moving parts now? And the Florida case is a serious 223 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 4: challenge in terms of the facts for Trump. But I 224 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 4: think the jury's very beneficial. I think the judge is 225 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 4: very reasonable. That might last for months and box out 226 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 4: the potential of their being charges brought and finished in DC. 227 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 4: Have you thought any about that angle. 228 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 3: I think that Smith made a strategic error with respect 229 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 3: to that case, which will not allow for what you 230 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 3: just laid out, okay, Otherwise would be plausible, And that 231 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 3: is if you wanted to do that kind of fast 232 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 3: and nasty and get it to trial. What you do 233 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 3: is you leave the classified information counts out and you 234 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 3: just do the obstruction case, okay, And that I think 235 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 3: he could have gotten to trial. The problem he has 236 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 3: is he larded it up with like three dozen classified 237 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 3: information counts and undus SIPA, which is the Classified Information 238 00:12:55,080 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 3: Procedures Act. All admissibility questions about classified information have to 239 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 3: be litigated prior to trial, and there are appeals. So 240 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 3: I think part of what's bogged that thing down is 241 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 3: not only the ability to get access to the classified 242 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 3: documents for discovery purposes, but also just the sheer breadth 243 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 3: of trying to litigate all of the admissibility questions that 244 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 3: could possibly come up bearing on classified information documents in 245 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 3: the trial. It's going to be very hard, and I 246 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 3: don't think the judge's pushing to get the case to trial, 247 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 3: so it's going to be very hard to get that's 248 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 3: the trial. 249 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 2: Andy, you think Atlanta, sorry, if we're really doing it 250 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,559 Speaker 2: around the world here of the legal stuff, you think 251 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 2: Atlanta's just basically done. I mean, because of the prosecutor 252 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 2: and the ethical issues and the whole thing. I mean, 253 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 2: is that a non issue at least in terms of 254 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 2: the election. 255 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 3: It's the hardest one to gauge because there's a lot 256 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 3: of moving parts. Now. The prosecutors mired in scandal. She 257 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 3: tried to do this big rico thing to keep together, 258 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: which should have been a bunch of disparate little cases. 259 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 3: And an overlay on this buck is that Meadows is 260 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 3: still litigating whether they can get the case transferred to 261 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 3: federal court, which would basically start it all over again 262 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 3: if that happens, And I still think he's got a 263 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 3: good chance to win on that. So, you know, I 264 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 3: think that's very That's a really tough one to gauge 265 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 3: at this point. There's too much going on there. 266 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 2: Well, but I mean, the prosecutor's issues alone, is that 267 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 2: enough that you think maybe just derails it. The fact 268 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: that I mean she's got she's got real problems. 269 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it derailed. It may derail her participation 270 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 3: in it more than it derails the case. But on 271 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 3: the other hand, she's the one who pushed for the rico. 272 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 3: I mean, I think the rico's preposterous, and these guys 273 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 3: never committed it. You know, you can't conspire in the 274 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 3: criminal law unless it's a conspiracy to violate a law, 275 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 3: and trying to get an election reversed is not a crime, 276 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: so that's not really the basis of a conspiracy. So 277 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 3: she tried to paper over that by invoking Rico. But 278 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 3: the truth of the matter is the only thing these 279 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 3: nineteen people ever did together was get indicted. 280 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 5: You know. 281 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 3: Otherwise it's a bunch of disparate crimes committed by a 282 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 3: lot of people, many of whom didn't even know each 283 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 3: other or know what each other was doing. So if 284 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 3: she's out of the case, I wonder if it laughs 285 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 3: as a Rico as opposed to Yeah, Look, the four 286 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 3: people have pled guilty. They haven't. None of them's pled 287 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 3: guilty to the Rico, right, And with respect to one 288 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 3: of them, they had to make up even though she 289 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 3: has like this one hundred and forty page indictment or 290 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 3: what or whatever it is, they had to come up 291 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 3: with another crime to get this person out of the 292 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 3: case because it wasn't you know, she couldn't plead to 293 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 3: anything that was in the case. So it's a mess. 294 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 4: Andy, enjoy the game, Good luck to your son, University 295 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 4: of Chicago's baseball season, and man, as crazy as twenty 296 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 4: twenty four already is, I'm sure we're going to have 297 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 4: you on a bunch of times breaking this all down 298 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 4: with Forrest. We appreciate the time. 299 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 3: Thanks guys, great to talk to you. 300 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 4: Sam garthy buck. He's as plugged in as anybody could 301 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 4: be with all this law fair that's going on. 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We've got Charlie spearing with 341 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 4: us now. 342 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: He has a new book out, Amateur Hour, Kamala Harris 343 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 2: in the White House and Charlie play and I have 344 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 2: so many questions. 345 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 4: Good of you to be with us. 346 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 5: Thanks for having me. 347 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 2: So first off, would you just tell us some things 348 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: about Kamala the vice president of the United States that 349 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: we may not already know that we should know because 350 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 2: you were deep diving into everything here. 351 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 4: Who is this vice president? What do we need to know? 352 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, just taking a look at her record, and certainly 353 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 5: her time as vice president has been sort of featured 354 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 5: the word salads. But when you go back and look 355 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 5: at her career, especially her presidential campaign, she struggled with 356 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 5: a lot of the same problems she's having now as 357 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 5: vice president. And it's what happens when you have a 358 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 5: fairly popular politician from a one party state like California 359 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 5: sort of emerge onto the national stage and then immediately 360 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 5: think that somehow you're going to connect with voters on 361 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 5: a national level without gaining the necessary experience. 362 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 4: So Charlie, you I think have already gotten some attention 363 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 4: for the story of how Kamala was selected. There's been 364 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 4: reporting that Jill Biden, Joe Biden's wife, was very unappreciative 365 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 4: of the attacks, being Joe Biden being called a racist 366 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 4: in that probably signature moment of Kamala's campaign, and that 367 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 4: she didn't want Jill didn't want Kamala Harris to be selected. 368 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 4: If you believe that to be true, how did Kamala 369 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 4: Harris come to be selected? Who was she selected over? 370 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 4: What have you been able to discover about that? 371 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah, Jill Biden actually was preferring Susan Rice because 372 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 5: it became very clear after this summer of riots and 373 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 5: the George Floyd protests that in order to sort of 374 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 5: put together the Obama coalition, they would need a woman 375 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 5: of color on the ticket. This is what Biden's senior 376 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 5: advisors were telling him, this is what Obama was telling 377 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 5: him behind the scenes. They very much agreed that it 378 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 5: was time to pick a black woman to be on 379 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 5: the ticket. That the hard part was picking was who 380 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 5: it was going to be. Joe Biden favored Susan Rice 381 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 5: eat despite all of the craziness surrounding the Benghazi terrorist attacks, 382 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 5: so and certainly Pelosi and others did not necessarily make 383 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 5: Kamala the first pick, but I think ultimately the senior 384 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 5: advisors took a look at what Kamala was doing behind 385 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 5: the scenes on the media aspect and really pushing the 386 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 5: issue hard, and they finally convinced Biden. He complained that 387 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 5: he was forced to go with his head instead of 388 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 5: his heart, and I think that's why he ended up 389 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 5: choosing him. 390 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: How confident are you one way or the other, Charlie, 391 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 2: after looking into all this as to whether or not 392 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: the Democrats would allow if they needed to allow for 393 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 2: someone to take over for Biden, would they give it 394 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: a go with Kamala Harris or do you really think, 395 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 2: like there's a lot of discussion about this out there, 396 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 2: that there could be some other plan where even though 397 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 2: she's the vice president, she wouldn't really take over the presidency. 398 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a lot of nervous nervousness behind the scenes 399 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 5: of what happens if Joe Biden can't make it to 400 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 5: election day. Do we just automatically put Kamala Harris it's 401 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 5: the Democrat nominee to take over Trump. That's unlikely to happen. 402 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 5: The only reason that Joe Biden's running again is because 403 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 5: Kamala Harris isn't ready. So I foresee, if if Joe 404 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 5: Biden doesn't make it to election day, I can see 405 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 5: it at a very very tumultuous time for the Democrat Party. 406 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 5: Certainly you're going to see a lot of donors trying 407 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 5: to pull there their you know, preferred candidate forwarde to 408 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 5: replace Kamala. And certainly no one expects Kamala to seriously 409 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 5: compete with Trump at this point. 410 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,959 Speaker 4: Okay, So if Biden were not to run, based on 411 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 4: your reporting about Kamala, what do you think would happen? 412 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 4: Then Kamala obviously has a very high regard for herself 413 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 4: that doesn't seem to be reflected in staff, right even 414 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 4: or Yeah, But to say nothing of what people in 415 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 4: the larger world, you know, I mean all of us 416 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 4: know sometimes perception of political figures or just celebrities in 417 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 4: general can be one hundred percent artificial. There are people 418 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 4: that seem very likable in the public eye that are 419 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 4: actually awful. There are people who seem awful that are 420 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 4: actually very likable. To me, the fact that Kamala Harris 421 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 4: can't keep a staff is not a very strong endorsement 422 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 4: of her both likability and also workability. What do you 423 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 4: think they would do? So you're right, I think Buck 424 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 4: and I would agree with you, And I'm interested that 425 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 4: your reporting reflects this, that the idea was clearly Joe 426 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 4: Biden's gonna be eighty two will pass the baton to 427 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 4: the next generation of Democrat leaders, But Kamala has been 428 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 4: such a disaster that Democrats have decided Joe Biden's the guy. 429 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 4: Who would be in the mix? Do you think it 430 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 4: would be Gavin Newsom? Do you think it would be 431 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 4: Michelle Obama? Do you think it would be Gretchen Whitmer, 432 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 4: Jam Pritzker? What would Democrats do and how hard would 433 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 4: Kamala Harris fight to argue that she had to be 434 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 4: the pick in the event that Joe Biden's not able 435 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 4: to be the pick? 436 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 5: Oh, I think she'd fight tooth and nail if they 437 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 5: tried to pass her up and put somebody else in 438 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 5: her place, somebody like a Gavin Newsom or Gretchen Whitmer. 439 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 5: I think Joe Biden preferred Gretchen Whitmer as a VP 440 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 5: candidate back in twenty twenty, but I don't think that 441 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 5: she would be very happy if any either one of 442 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 5: those tried to. There's been a long history of competition 443 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 5: between Gavin Newsom and Kamala Harris. 444 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 4: If they think they liked what do you think their 445 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 4: relationship is actually like behind the scenes. 446 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 5: Oh, the relationship between Gavin and Kamala is very much frenemies. 447 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 5: On the outside, they are super cordial and nice to 448 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 5: each other, but behind the scenes they are very much 449 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 5: working to protect their political brand and leverage themselves one 450 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 5: over the other. It's interesting they were both running for 451 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 5: both eyeing the race for California governor in twenty sixteen 452 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 5: and until the Barbara Boxer suddenly resigned and opened up 453 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 5: a slot for Kamala's political ambitions. 454 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 4: So how is Kamala Harris? I mean, you obviously charted this. 455 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 2: We've got a copy of your book here by the way, 456 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 2: Amateur Hour, which folks, especially who are streaming the show, 457 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 2: can see up on the website. How did she manage 458 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 2: to become the vice president? I mean, I know that's 459 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 2: a book length question and not just but what does 460 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 2: she do well? 461 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 4: How did she? 462 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 2: I mean, she does have to get some credit for 463 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: maneuvering as one of the worst national level politicians based 464 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: on political skills that are visible to the general public that. 465 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 4: Anyone could think of. She did become the vice president. 466 00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 4: How did that happen? 467 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's interesting the Biden campaign has and you can 468 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 5: see this as they head into an election year. They're 469 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 5: really sort of focusing on her strengths, the things that 470 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 5: she offers to Joe Biden, and one of those is 471 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,719 Speaker 5: the ability to promote the idea of abortion rights. Another 472 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 5: is connecting with young people. That's why she's been sort 473 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 5: of playing in her safe spaces on the campaign trail, 474 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 5: really focusing on those issues that Biden needs help on. 475 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 5: They realized they needed a person of color to get 476 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 5: up there and talk to black voters because Joe Biden 477 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 5: was so bad on the issue right around the time 478 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 5: that he was choosing a vice president, famous lines like 479 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 5: poor kids are just as smart as white kids, and 480 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 5: back when he said you ain't black if you don't 481 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 5: if you vote for Trump and those kinds of things. 482 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 5: Is why they chose Kamalain because he needed help on 483 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 5: that on those couple of issues. 484 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 4: I don't know how much you spend it again, we're 485 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 4: talking to Charlie Spearing. The book is amateur hour. Kamala 486 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 4: Harris in the White House. Kamala Harris got her start 487 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 4: in the political universe by being the mistress of Willie Brown, 488 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 4: the mayor then of San Francisco. I think, also very 489 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 4: powerful in California legislature circles, if I'm not mistaken. Over 490 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 4: the years, that story, for the most part, is not 491 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 4: talked about. And Kamala doesn't have children of her own. 492 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 4: She's married to a high powered white Jewish attorney, Doug L. M. Hoff. 493 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 4: I think who most people have no idea about. Yet 494 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 4: she's supposed to be this paragon of black womanhood, even 495 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 4: though she also is Afro Caribbean. I believe she's half 496 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 4: an Indian, right, she isn't that similar to most black 497 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 4: women in America. When you look at her bio and 498 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 4: you look at her history, Why do you think there's 499 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 4: been so little discussion about her history? And how much 500 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 4: do you think in your reporting has the media protected 501 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 4: her past? 502 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, Claire, absolutely, the media has sort of protected her brand. 503 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 5: There's a reason why people don't talk about Willy Brown 504 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 5: because she hates talking about it. She hates anybody any 505 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 5: discussion of how she first arrived on the political scene 506 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 5: as the twenty nine year old girlfriend of a sixty 507 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 5: year old politician, powerful politician running. 508 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 4: Ferry politician. 509 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 5: Right, his wife Blanche was strange from a strange from him, 510 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 5: but he was sort of looking to prove that he 511 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 5: could lock down a serious relationship where typically he was 512 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 5: often seen with many women on his arms as he 513 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 5: traveled around the city. But the reason why Willy Brown 514 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 5: matters is because he appointed her to two different state 515 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 5: boards that paid her over four hundred thousand dollars in 516 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 5: state funds while he was dating her. And you know, 517 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 5: adjust that for inflation, that's almost like eight hundred thousand 518 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 5: dollars in today's money. So this is how she arrived 519 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 5: on the political scene. Willie Brown funded her, brought open 520 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 5: the door, brought her into his political world, and that's 521 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,479 Speaker 5: why she's that really kicked off her career. 522 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 4: And Charlie, this is important to me because for we 523 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 4: were just talking about how Biden does very well with women, right, 524 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 4: single women, married women. Kamala Harris as the other woman, 525 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 4: what I would describe as the side chick of a 526 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 4: man who is thirty years older than her. That doesn't 527 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 4: resonate very well with especially married women who don't like 528 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 4: the second woman who kind of swoops in with an 529 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 4: older guy who's already had success. And yet I bet 530 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 4: huge percentages of voters have no idea that that is 531 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 4: in Kamala Harris's background or is a prominent reason why 532 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 4: she rose to power. 533 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 5: That's right, Clay, and that's why I wrote the book, 534 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 5: you know. And there's not too many books written about 535 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 5: the first term of a vice presidential candidate, but there's 536 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 5: a very real possibility that Kamala Harris could be the 537 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 5: forty seventh president of the United States if Joe Biden 538 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 5: runs and wins in November. So it's important forever for 539 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 5: voters to sort of look deeper than just the word 540 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 5: salads and really understand who this woman is and how 541 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 5: she got to where she is now. And then that 542 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 5: way you can have those conversations about when you go 543 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 5: to the voting box in November, who are we woing? 544 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 5: Who are we voting for? We're voting for Joe Biden, 545 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 5: or were voting for Kamala Harris, someone who hasn't run 546 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 5: a national campaign on her own successfully to this point. 547 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 2: Charlie the book Amateur Hours Out Charlie Spearing is the 548 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 2: author Before we let you go, one quick question for 549 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 2: you is you're a Kamala expert now as a title 550 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 2: that you carry around with you, sir, who is more 551 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 2: likable Kamala Harris or Hillary Clinton? 552 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 5: Ooh, that's really tough. 553 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 4: Oh indeed, I would. 554 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 2: Say, all right, Charlie, Well, if you want to keep 555 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: everybody in suspense, maybe they'll get a sense to it 556 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 2: when they read the book. Amateur out or Charlie Spearing, 557 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: the author the Kamala Harrison the White House. 558 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 4: Go get the book, everybody. Charlie, thanks for being here 559 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 4: with us. Appreciate it. Man, you bet. 560 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 5: I would say Hillary Clinton is more popular because she's 561 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 5: at least earned the loser's flag of sympathy. 562 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 4: All right, I think we're gonna have to answer that question. 563 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 4: I'm gonna answer it for you. Buck. I'm curious with 564 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 4: your answer, Charlie, great work. Appreciate the book. Thank you. 565 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 2: You know, Clay downstairs, I got something special that I 566 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 2: can hook you up with, my friend, because you know, 567 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 2: we start to drag a little bit traveling and doing 568 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 2: three hours of radio, and you know, I got a 569 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 2: little special something for you courtesy of our friends at 570 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 2: Chalk You know, actually one of the boxes by my 571 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: front door right now is my latest Chalk delivery. I 572 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 2: love the Chad Mode pre workout from Chalk. 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Use the name Buck for this amazing discount. 602 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: Twenty four on You podcast from Clay and Buck covering 603 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: all things Election. Episodes drop Sundays at noon Eastern. Find 604 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: it on the free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get 605 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: your podcasts. 606 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 4: Welcome back in Finishing Up Thursday edition of the program. 607 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 4: Go subscribe to the podcast. Go subscribe at Clayanbuck dot com. 608 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 4: You can become a VIP and watch the video every 609 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 4: single day. Buck asked a question. I have put it 610 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 4: up online to allow all of you to vote. Who's 611 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 4: a more likable person? The good question for Charlie there 612 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:49,719 Speaker 4: at the end totally stumped him. 613 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 5: He froze. 614 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 4: There was a long period of silence on the air. 615 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 4: This is like, do you want to be struck by 616 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 4: lightning or drink luck? 617 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 3: You know what I mean. 618 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 4: It's not you want to get killed by a shark 619 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 4: or killed by a crocodile. By the way, I definitely 620 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,479 Speaker 4: go shark over crocodile way faster. Yeah, So the poll 621 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 4: is up. Buck is tagged at clay and Buck is 622 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 4: tagged on Twitter. Will also put it up at clayanbuck 623 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 4: dot com. If you want to weigh in. As soon 624 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 4: as you I didn't know you're gonna ask the question, 625 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 4: but as soon as you asked it, my answer is Hillary. 626 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 4: And let me give you my answer for why Hillary. 627 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 4: I think Hillary is very unlikable, right, but if you're 628 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 4: asking who is more like an average woman, Hillary is 629 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 4: a mom. Hillary stayed married to Bill Clinton, even if 630 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 4: you don't like him. She was willing to be the 631 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 4: first wife of Bill Clinton and they've now been married 632 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 4: for fifty some odd years. Hillary is a grandma. I 633 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 4: think Chelsea has three or four kids whatever she has, 634 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 4: and Hillary, actually I think is far more competent in 635 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 4: terms of intellectual talent. Maybe I should have asked you. 636 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 4: You have no you have no choice at all. 637 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 2: You have to the the candidates or president of the 638 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 2: United States are Kamala Harris or Hillary Clinton. 639 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 4: To me, it's no commons I would go Hillary. 640 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 2: I would go Hillary, and not just for fear of 641 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 2: what would happen to me because of the Clintons if 642 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 2: I went against Yeah, well you answer. 643 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 4: Some people are gonna say, well, you know, Kamala Harris 644 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 4: that we know of, has never committed a serious. 645 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: I mean knowing in Kamala Harris's orbit like suddenly like 646 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 2: slips in the shower and you never heard from again. 647 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 4: But I'm just saying, but I again, to me, Kamala 648 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 4: Harris is maybe the biggest figment and enigma buck. What 649 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 4: percentage people do you think know that she was the 650 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 4: other woman for Willie Brant? I I gotta be. I mean, 651 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 4: there's there's that component of it. 652 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 2: But I even think I think Kamala Harris, in a 653 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 2: lot of ways, epitomizes the height of the e O 654 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 2: power in America, the same way that the President of 655 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 2: Harvard epitomizes the height of the De Dei movement's ability 656 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 2: to put people in positions that they would not have 657 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 2: otherwise gotten of extreme prominence, a lot of influence, and 658 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 2: they're not even close to capable or qualify for the role. 659 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 2: So I think Kamala is really a symptom of the 660 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 2: overreach of DEI in many ways. 661 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 4: And I just think again, the idea that Kamala Harris 662 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 4: in some way is reflective or representative of Black women 663 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 4: in America is always been one of the biggest lies 664 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 4: about her entire political career. She's a side chick, she 665 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 4: doesn't have any kids of her own. She's married to 666 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 4: a super rich white Jewish lawyer, who, by the way, 667 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 4: was already married to somebody else, so it's not like 668 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 4: they initially had some sort of relationship. She owes her 669 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 4: entire political career to the fact that she was willing 670 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,919 Speaker 4: to sleep with the right guy at the right time. 671 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 4: I don't think that's very representative of what most Black 672 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 4: women or most women in America are actually like. And 673 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 4: I think most of them don't know her story, which 674 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 4: is why I think what Charlie's writing is so important.