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Speaker 1: At ten pm on a snowy April second, nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 1: twenty two year old Andrew Asher and Becky George sat

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Speaker 1: in a parked car in front of her brother's apartment

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Speaker 1: on Silent Road in Rockford, Illinois.

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Speaker 2: A black man.

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Speaker 1: Approached the car and a blue ski mask and a hoodie,

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Speaker 1: and he opened the driver's side door, announcing a stick up.

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Speaker 1: While Becky fished around in her purse and tried to

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Speaker 1: offer the gunman the sixty dollars she had, he shot

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Speaker 1: Andrew Asher twice. Becky ran to her brother's apartment to

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Speaker 1: call the police, and the two bullets and their casings

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Speaker 1: were retrieved from the crime scene and during the autopsy.

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Speaker 1: Through the use of incentivized eyewitness testimony, the coercion of

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Speaker 1: a false confession, and grand jury testimony from Patrick Persley's girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: Samantha Crabtree, testimony she later recanted a trial, and conflicting

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Speaker 1: and misleading ballistics expert testimony. Patrick was convicted of first

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Speaker 1: degree murder and sentenced to life without parole, with an

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Speaker 1: epic appeals process that included Patrick getting a law change

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Speaker 1: from prison in order to get new BAE listics testing

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Speaker 1: done that would ultimately set him free. Patrick Parsley suffered

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Speaker 1: for over twenty five years for a crime he simply

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Speaker 1: didn't commit. In March twenty seventeen, Patrick's conviction was finally.

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Speaker 2: Vacated and he was released on bond.

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Speaker 1: He was formally acquitted at his retrial on January sixteenth,

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. This is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: This episode was recorded at Complex Con Chicago twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: a culture, fashion, art and music hybrid event described as

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Speaker 1: a streetwear fans kind of world's fair featuring limited edition

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Speaker 1: brand collaborations, performances, and even the occasional live podcast recording

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Speaker 1: like this one. We only had thirty minutes though, to

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Speaker 1: tell Patrick's story, so I'll be fleshing out some of

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Speaker 1: the details along the way. Patrick Persley, this is going

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Speaker 1: to be extraordinary, because Franklin, doesn't you, Because Pat is

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Speaker 1: my new friend. I've just gotten to know him, his

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Speaker 1: unbelievable spirit and intellect. But Patrick, I want to say

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Speaker 1: that I'm happy you're here. I'm sorry you're here because

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Speaker 1: you should never even have to be having this conversation.

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Speaker 1: But I'm happier here, and your case has so many

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Speaker 1: of the hallmarks, so many of the common factors that

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Speaker 1: we see in rawful convictions over and over again. You

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Speaker 1: had incentivized lying witnesses, yes, coerced threatened witnesses. You had

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Speaker 1: bad ballistics, terrible ballistics.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: You had people in positions of authority who broke rules,

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Speaker 1: broke laws in order to railroad you. Tunnel vision is

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Speaker 1: another factor, right, And by tunnel vision, what I mean

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Speaker 1: by that is once a suspect is identified. In many cases,

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Speaker 1: we see that the police and prosecutors start to build

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Speaker 1: a narrative, either consciously or subconsciously, and they managed to

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Speaker 1: ignore or they subconsciously ignore evidence that points.

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Speaker 2: Away as they sated.

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Speaker 3: In your case, Yes, I'll term to suspects crime scene evidence, clothing, everything,

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Speaker 3: everything was contradicted.

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Speaker 1: Patrick Pursley was ronflely convicted of a brutal crime, a

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Speaker 1: robbery of two people in a car where the robber

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Speaker 1: shot the guy sitting in the car twice and ran

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Speaker 1: and then things went downhill from.

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Speaker 2: There very quickly.

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Speaker 1: And Patrick, this was Rockford, Illinois. But you didn't know

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Speaker 1: the people, You didn't know anything about the.

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Speaker 3: Crime, didn't even know it happened.

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Speaker 2: You were home with your girlfriend when this happened.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I was doing a lated birthday party from my

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Speaker 3: son and he came from Wisconsin. His birthday was on

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Speaker 3: the twenty ninth, and we were celebrating on the night

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Speaker 3: of the crime, which was four to ninety three, and

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Speaker 3: had a chemistry set for him and we were just

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Speaker 3: tinkering around and have no idea of these events happening

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Speaker 3: just a few miles away now.

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Speaker 1: I Meanwhile, there's another aspect of this that's important to recognize,

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Speaker 1: which is crime stoppers, right, and theory crime stoppers great thing. Right,

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Speaker 1: people call up, they talk about a crime, they can

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Speaker 1: make us all safer. They get a reward. But in

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Speaker 1: your case, except except when they do it like When's

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Speaker 1: case where someone called up and knew nothing about the

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Speaker 1: crime and just gave up his name in order to

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Speaker 1: get two thousand, six hundred and fifty dollars the Price

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Speaker 1: of life, right, about one hundred dollars a year for

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Speaker 1: the time you were in the Price of Life. So

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Speaker 1: all of this must have come as a tremendous shock

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Speaker 1: to you when it happened in stages right when you

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Speaker 1: first first you became aware that you were a suspect.

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Speaker 2: Can you get into that aspect of this whole thing.

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Speaker 3: I was taking my daughter and my son to a

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Speaker 3: birthday party and the police tried to for hid me,

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Speaker 3: and unfortunately I was ghettle bred, so I fled and

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Speaker 3: that's how it started.

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Speaker 1: That was June tenth, nineteen ninety three, about ten weeks

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Speaker 1: after the crime. Two days earlier, on June eighth, Marvin Windham,

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Speaker 1: a man Patrick knew from a few small time weed

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Speaker 1: deals around Rockford, was the first one to point the

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Speaker 1: finger at him in a call he made to crime stoppers.

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Speaker 1: It was later revealed a trial that not only did

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Speaker 1: Marvin have ey for Samantha Crabtree, Patrick's girlfriend, but he

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Speaker 1: also received leniency on a number of charges that he

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Speaker 1: faced in exchange for his testimony not to mention the

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Speaker 1: two six hundred and fifty dollars reward. With Wyndham's hot tip,

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Speaker 1: the police now we're able to get a search warrant

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Speaker 1: for Patrick and Samantha's apartment, where they recovered a Taurus

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Speaker 1: nine millimeter that Samantha kept for protection. Notably, she always

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Speaker 1: stored it out of reach of her small children. While

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Speaker 1: Patrick fled on foot and the cops rated the apartment,

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Speaker 1: they brought Samantha in for some aggressive interrogation, and I'm

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Speaker 1: putting that mile.

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Speaker 3: The intergregated my girlfriend for like twelve hours. She was pregnant,

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Speaker 3: you know, just basically force fed a narrative to her

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Speaker 3: while disregarding glaring contradictions.

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Speaker 2: And so your girlfriend was the pregnant mother of two

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Speaker 2: or three.

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Speaker 3: Never been in trouble, three kids, three.

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Speaker 2: Kids, pregnant mother.

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Speaker 1: So she's a target for twelve hours, and the police

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Speaker 1: tells her that if she doesn't tell them exactly what

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Speaker 1: they want to hear, she.

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Speaker 3: Won't see her children till she's forty.

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Speaker 2: So here's how this unraveled.

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Speaker 1: So they take her from directly from the interrogation room

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Speaker 1: to a grand jury where they make her repeat the

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Speaker 1: story right now.

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Speaker 2: She's under oath, right.

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Speaker 3: Get her own record, get her under you know, a

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Speaker 3: substantiate of evidence come in later.

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Speaker 1: So she tells them what they want to hear, and

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Speaker 1: a girlfriend, to her everlasting.

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Speaker 2: Credit, stood strong to get back. Can you talk about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, as soon as she was out of custody,

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Speaker 3: she filed an affidavit with my attorneys and said she

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Speaker 3: was courced basically took back her statement. Whether Ellanoi idea

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Speaker 3: is no takebacks right now. It's called perjury. It's called perjury.

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Speaker 3: It's called come in that trial substantial evidence. Then you

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Speaker 3: say this under oath and comes in as evidence of guilt.

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Speaker 2: Your girlfriend ended up spending two years in prison because.

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Speaker 3: She didn't go along with the narrative and took it back.

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Speaker 1: The narrative of her terror rized, spoon fed and patently

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Speaker 1: false confession and her grand jury testimony was that she

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Speaker 1: and Patrick were having financial trouble and on the night

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Speaker 1: of the murder, they were driving around in search of

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Speaker 1: a house to rob when Patrick told her to stop

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Speaker 1: on silent road, hopped out of the car, put on

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Speaker 1: a blue ski mask, told her to keep the engine running,

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Speaker 1: and ran off toward the apartment buildings. Then a few

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Speaker 1: minutes later, she heard two gun shots and Patrick returned

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Speaker 1: to the car carrying a Taurus nine millimeter. Hours before

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Speaker 1: being threatened with a life separated from her children and

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Speaker 1: regurgitating this narrative for her false confession, Samantha's apartment was

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Speaker 1: being searched by the police where photos were actually staged.

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Speaker 2: There were staged.

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Speaker 1: Photos of her tourist nine millimeters being stored in plain

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Speaker 1: sight for ease of use.

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Speaker 3: The whole gun situation as far as like pictures where

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Speaker 3: the gun was. It's like I had children in my house.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to have a gun in plain view

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Speaker 3: where a ten year old could get it. It just wasn't.

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Speaker 3: The whole narrative of how it was put together was

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Speaker 3: so far suppose it's just crazy.

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Speaker 2: But early on you you had a lawyer who actually

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Speaker 2: made one move.

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Speaker 3: One move ch course, save your life. Yeah, So every defendant,

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Speaker 3: I think, in the course of America says I didn't

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Speaker 3: do it. I had a young lawyer who was beginning

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Speaker 3: his career and I was his first depth penalty case.

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Speaker 3: And then I had the older lawyer who kind of

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Speaker 3: just like, I'm out of here. So the young lawyer

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Speaker 3: and his pushback, right, you know you didn't do it. Well,

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Speaker 3: we'll test the gun. Really, you can do that. Yes,

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Speaker 3: please test the gun. Test gun. That's how it all started,

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Speaker 3: That's what got me here.

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Speaker 1: Ballistic testing is very important to this story. Ballistics is

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Speaker 1: the study of the dynamics of projectiles or of the

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Speaker 1: internal action of firearms. It can tell us what type

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Speaker 1: of firearm was used, where it was fired, from, how

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Speaker 1: many shots were fired, and most importantly for this case,

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Speaker 1: it can be used to identify a firearm by the

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Speaker 1: markings left on bullets and bullet casings after firing. So,

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Speaker 1: after both the state's crime lab and the defense's independent

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Speaker 1: lab test fire Crabtrees nine milimeter and compare the bullets

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Speaker 1: and casings from both the test firing and the murder,

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Speaker 1: the prosecution's expert testified that the gun used in the

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Speaker 1: murder was Crabtrees Tourist nine millimeter and this is a

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Speaker 1: direct quote to the exclusion of all others. Powerful testimony,

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Speaker 1: false but powerful. While the defense's expert testified that the

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Speaker 1: murder weapon was likely a Tourist nine millimere but not

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Speaker 1: crab Trees. However, the expert hired by the defense could

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Speaker 1: not conclusively exclude the gun.

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Speaker 2: So think about this.

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Speaker 1: You now have the state testifying with absolute certainty and

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Speaker 1: the defense inconclusive in their exclusion of Patrick. This, along

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Speaker 1: with Marvin Wyndham's incentivized testimony and Samantha Crabtree's initial false confession,

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Speaker 1: brings us to where we know this part of the

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Speaker 1: story tragically, when, however, the ballistics testing becomes crucial again

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Speaker 1: many years down the road, when the jury went out,

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Speaker 1: You've now seen a bunch of dirty tricks. You've been

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Speaker 1: around the system. You grew up, as you said, in

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Speaker 1: the streets, so you know what can happen. You're a

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Speaker 1: young black man at this point in the clutches of

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Speaker 1: a system that is designed to chew you up and

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Speaker 1: spit you out.

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Speaker 3: I think Lupe called it planned convalescence. I think called

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Speaker 3: it that.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: That being said, when the jury went out, did.

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Speaker 2: You have hope?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I knew I didn't do it. I know

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Speaker 3: it was going home. And so when they returned a

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Speaker 3: guilty verdict, I just I really don't even remember how

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Speaker 3: I got back to my cell because I guess the

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Speaker 3: blood drained off my body or something. I just went

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Speaker 3: body numb, and uh, you know, I couldn't believe it.

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Speaker 3: I just I couldn't believe it. It floored me.

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Speaker 1: I don't think anybody here can possibly begin to understand

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Speaker 1: unless someone else here has been through what you've been through.

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Speaker 1: And now you're facing the death penalty. Yes, come back

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Speaker 1: for sentencing, and the judge.

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Speaker 3: Says, because of the inconsistencies of the evidence, I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to give you the death penalty. However, I will

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Speaker 3: give you natural life, I'll find you'll be a minister society.

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Speaker 3: And this is at a time where people were actually

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Speaker 3: picketing for me to get a new trial. It was

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Speaker 3: very strange and very strange correlation what was going on.

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Speaker 1: And that's just fasake. We're not going to kill you quickly,

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Speaker 1: but we are going to kill you slowly.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm having mercy on you because I see the

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Speaker 3: bs and evidence. But you're still going, buddy.

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Speaker 2: You're gone.

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Speaker 3: There was a cry in the courtroom when he announced

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Speaker 3: that my daughters were there. It was something else.

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Speaker 2: You were said to some of the worst, well one

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Speaker 2: of the worst prisons.

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Speaker 3: Yes, stay built, and I'm one job in the law library.

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Speaker 3: I tried to play past the game banging and the

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Speaker 3: dice games and try to educate myself. I got a

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Speaker 3: grant to correspondence classes in law.

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Speaker 2: Is it as bad as everyone thinks it is?

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Speaker 3: I'm a natural life survivor right so, right now in

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Speaker 3: the wintertime, although locks are cut off the windows so

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Speaker 3: the natives don't make knives, However, what that does allows

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Speaker 3: your cell to have enough ice on you can make

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Speaker 3: a snow cone right off the bars. And freezing temperatures mice, roaches,

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Speaker 3: so many roaches. You put a potato chip back in

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Speaker 3: the corner of your segregation cell and the roaches going

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Speaker 3: there and they can't get out, and so you hear

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Speaker 3: kind of like the scraping. And that was the roach

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Speaker 3: motel in f House Panoptacon. They actually, uh, it's a landmark.

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Speaker 3: It's a landmark.

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Speaker 1: And of the two point two million people in prison,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of them who don't have air conditioning.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know.

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Speaker 1: A guy who died recently in Texas prison, he told

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Speaker 1: his brother that his brother said, why don't you have

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Speaker 1: any sodas? You love soda, but you can't keep sodas

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Speaker 1: in your cell. You said, I can't because they explode

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Speaker 1: because it's too hot. Like what the fuck even is that?

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Speaker 3: Well, ice is the commodity. They might get one cup

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Speaker 3: of ice in the morning, one cup of ice at night.

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Speaker 3: Ice is a commodity. So you will deal with the elements.

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Speaker 3: And right around April fifteenth they will turn off the

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Speaker 3: heat every year like clockwork, despite the elements.

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Speaker 2: Right in Chicago, you got some elements here, God knows it.

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Speaker 1: So And I'm always fascinated and amazed by people like yourself,

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Speaker 1: who managed to, you know, go through this ordeal as

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Speaker 1: an innocent person, and the extra psychological damage that that

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Speaker 1: must do to a person who's undergoing the extreme physical

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Speaker 1: hardships and the loneliness and all the rest of it.

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Speaker 1: The violence in the prison, we talked about it, the

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Speaker 1: terrible food, et cetera. Set the cold, the heat, and

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Speaker 1: then you are there, you know, innocent forever, innocent. Right.

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Speaker 3: I was done, all my appeals were done. I was

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Speaker 3: done in court. It was over.

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Speaker 1: With that being said, you found this something, this inner strength, perseverance,

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Speaker 1: whatever you have, you describe it. And you not only

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Speaker 1: didn't you give up, but you had, first of all,

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Speaker 1: you had every reason to give up. Motion after motion

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Speaker 1: after motion, denied, denied, denied.

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Speaker 3: All I needed was one yes. I needed once one yes.

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Speaker 3: That's it.

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Speaker 1: And how you got to that is a really incredible

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Speaker 1: part of the story. So you deny, denied. Now, as

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Speaker 1: I understand that the law in Illinois at the time

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Speaker 1: allowed for post conviction testing of fingerprints in DNA, but

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Speaker 1: not ballistics.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, So in two thousand and I asked for the testing.

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Speaker 3: I've seen an article and a tribune about Illinois State Police.

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Speaker 3: Now starts using the IBIS system Integated Ballistic Identification System,

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Speaker 3: which uses algorithms to connect ballistics to crime scenes. So

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Speaker 3: I was like, that can free me. I knew it

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Speaker 3: could free me. It was just that simple. And unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: because the law didn't allow for it in two thousand

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Speaker 3: and two thousand and one, wis for it. The courts

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Speaker 3: was like, no, the law would have to be amended.

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Speaker 3: The law would have to be a change in order

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Speaker 3: to grant me the gun testing, which would potentially designer Rabian.

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Speaker 3: That was two thousand and one.

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Speaker 1: Right, So you were stuff on a technicality, right because

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Speaker 1: you knew that you had this evidence because your lawyer

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Speaker 1: had tested.

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Speaker 2: We go back to that, right. Your lawyer had had

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Speaker 2: the sense to go and get.

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Speaker 3: The testing independent lab. Independent lab. This lab had only

300
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Speaker 3: testified for defendants four times.

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Speaker 1: So now a lot of people would say, Okay, here

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Speaker 1: you are in the segregation unit of one of the

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Speaker 1: worst prisons in America. Not a great education. You'd have

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Speaker 1: a law degree, you didn't have a science degree. It

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Speaker 1: would seem to be hopeless. But somehow or other, you

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Speaker 1: managed to actually get the law changed from inside yourself.

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Speaker 3: So so long, long story short, it's two thousand and six.

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Speaker 3: I'm in chowhall. There's an a warden, I would say,

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Speaker 3: a southern gentleman. Maybe in past life he had slave ships.

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Speaker 3: He sees my prayer beads and he says, are you

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Speaker 3: allowed to have them?

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Speaker 2: Sir?

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Speaker 3: And me, being the sarcastic bastard I am, I buck

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Speaker 3: up and say yes, sir. So he looks at me

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Speaker 3: and says, are you sure you're allowed to have him?

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Speaker 3: I don't like your attitude. He sees the energy coming

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Speaker 3: off me. I say, sir, yes, sir, And so he

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Speaker 3: gets a little closer in my personal space than the

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Speaker 3: tar man's out with the gun. It's about two hundred inmates,

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Speaker 3: and he says, I don't like your attitude. I said,

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Speaker 3: we don't like your attitude either, sir. You brought much

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Speaker 3: misery and suffering to the land. As a result, I

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Speaker 3: went straight to segregation six months in some of the

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Speaker 3: worst conditions in the United States. But while there I

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Speaker 3: had epiphany and I wrote an article that became a

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Speaker 3: state law.

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Speaker 2: And what is that law? Yeah, exactly, here we go.

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Speaker 3: So the law is seven to twenty five. I'll see

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Speaker 3: as five hue sixteen dash three as a minute October

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Speaker 3: twenty seven, two thousand and seven, signed by Governor Blagoyevitch.

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Speaker 3: I should probably send him some money for commissary because

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Speaker 3: he actually he helped me. No, really, he helped me. I

333
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Speaker 3: just it slips my mind sometimes, but he helped me.

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Speaker 3: He really did. He signed my idea to law.

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Speaker 1: If you remember, back in two thousand and nine, Illinois

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Speaker 1: Governor Rod Blokoyevitch was indicted on corruption charges that included

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Speaker 1: the alleged solicitation of personal benefit in exchange for Barack

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Speaker 1: Obama's recently vacated US Senate seat. As I remember that well,

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Speaker 1: it was a bizarre episode anyway. He was later found

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Speaker 1: guilty of seventeen different charges, including wire fraud, attempted extortion,

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Speaker 1: and conspiracy to solicit bribes, and sentenced to fourteen years

342
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Speaker 1: behind bars. But before he left office, he did sign

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Speaker 1: Patrick's amendment into law. Now back to the law. Bill

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Speaker 1: Ryan worked for the Department of Children and Family Services

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Speaker 1: as an advocate for long term offenders.

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Speaker 2: He had a.

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Speaker 1: Newsletter that was circulated throughout prisons as well as the

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Speaker 1: families of inmates, to law professors and colleges, and even

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Speaker 1: legislators and politicians. Mister Ryan published the article that Patrick

350
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Speaker 1: wrote about amending the law to include post conviction ballistics

351
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Speaker 1: testing through the Integrated Ballistics Identification System also known as IBIS.

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Speaker 1: In turn, Illinois State Representative Arthur Turner Senior sponsored the legislation.

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Speaker 3: You can imagine the letters that come from prison, and

354
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Speaker 3: so Bill Ryan are a long term advocate, explained to me,

355
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Speaker 3: and Michelle says Patrick, you just don't get it. I

356
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,240
Speaker 3: had a table full of letters. I reached down to

357
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Speaker 3: grab one letter, open it up. You asked me to

358
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Speaker 3: give it to the senators, and I did so. It's

359
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,840
Speaker 3: completely by the grace of the creator, completely fortuitous, anomalist,

360
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Speaker 3: whatever you think.

361
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Speaker 2: It was all just luck, right, No, I mean.

362
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Speaker 3: The stars lined upwards, genetics as a comminator, it's all

363
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Speaker 3: the above.

364
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Speaker 1: It's a combination of everything. And so ultimately the log

365
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Speaker 1: it's changed. They opened the jail doors, they let you

366
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Speaker 1: out right. No, it's never not exactly. So the log

367
00:18:58,440 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 1: has changed. Illinois.

368
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,240
Speaker 3: It comes to first state in the country to have

369
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,479
Speaker 3: this law in order to grant me the gun testing.

370
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,479
Speaker 3: So the log has changed. In general, Block which were

371
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,399
Speaker 3: in the shadow of my attorneys over there on Clark Street,

372
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 3: who spent like four point five million dollars over ten

373
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Speaker 3: years to get me exonerated.

374
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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, let's not leave out there are

375
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Speaker 1: a lot of heroes in your story right northwest, none

376
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,679
Speaker 1: bigger than you, by the way, And two of them

377
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: are in the room, And I want to recognize Steve

378
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,200
Speaker 1: Drizzen and Laura and I Ryder from the Northwestern Center

379
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 1: on Ronfel convictions, who have been steadfast support as they

380
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 1: still are. They your biggest fans of me. To be

381
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,919
Speaker 1: embarrassed if you heard something things they said. But anyway,

382
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,919
Speaker 1: so Rockford fought every step of the way. There was

383
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Speaker 1: no welcoming Reese for the conquering hero.

384
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Speaker 3: It was none of that. It was more like my

385
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 3: cousin Vinnie, we don't take too can of your kind

386
00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:54,119
Speaker 3: around here. So it was a long fight. It was

387
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,679
Speaker 3: a very long fight. About five rounds of gun testing

388
00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 3: showed the gun didn't match. And of course no one

389
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,239
Speaker 3: and knits mistakes in this world. So we had to

390
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 3: fight new trial, new trial.

391
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 2: But meanwhile, now you're hitting your.

392
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,960
Speaker 3: Stride, I'm hitting my stride. We were winning motion after motion.

393
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,359
Speaker 3: It was just amazing. It was a momentum. If you

394
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,919
Speaker 3: can imagine ten fifteen years of representing myself, or you know,

395
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,440
Speaker 3: just trying to navigate the system.

396
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,120
Speaker 2: And you're just starting to look like a lawyer.

397
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,879
Speaker 3: Did everybody tell you that I do hear that I

398
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,359
Speaker 3: take my cues from Steve Drizzen, I confessed.

399
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,160
Speaker 1: So, as you know, the wheels of justice turned painfully slowly.

400
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,720
Speaker 1: Even after getting the law changed in order to request

401
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 1: new ballistics testing through the IBIS system in two thousand

402
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 1: and seven, it took a tremendous amount of fighting in

403
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 1: order for Patrick's lawyers to finally be able to present

404
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,440
Speaker 1: the new evidence from two different ballistics experts, excluding as

405
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,200
Speaker 1: the murder weapon the tourist nine millimeter, that same tourist

406
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,480
Speaker 1: nine millimeter that was seized at Patrick's apartment. This all

407
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:08,680
Speaker 1: happened finally in December of twenty sixteen, and then at last,

408
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 1: his conviction was vacated and a new trial was granted

409
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 1: March of twenty seventeen, and Patrick Percy was released on

410
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 1: bond that very April, and there he began to fight

411
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 1: the new trial from the outside. In November twenty eighteen,

412
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,639
Speaker 1: Patrick's lawyers filed a motion for dismissal in light of

413
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:29,959
Speaker 1: a new bit of information that was not disclosed by

414
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 1: the prosecution after eighteen months. A story from Lois Asher,

415
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,439
Speaker 1: the victim's mother, that alluded to conscious wrongdoing by police

416
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,360
Speaker 1: in regards to the gun, even though at a December

417
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen hearing she admitted that the story came to

418
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 1: her second hand through her now deceased husband. It's still

419
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:52,400
Speaker 1: worth hearing, but did not result in a dismissal. There's

420
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,199
Speaker 1: another aspect of this case that needs to be mentioned,

421
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 1: which is the story of the gun.

422
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 3: So basically the state's attorney's once it came to realize

423
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 3: that the gun didn't match, even the mother of the

424
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,120
Speaker 3: victim right had came forward and it was like, look,

425
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 3: the detectives told me and my husband back in two thousand,

426
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 3: that back in nineteen ninety four that they couldn't find

427
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 3: a gun that killed their sons. So they just put

428
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 3: Patrick's gun into evidence. And when she asked, her and

429
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 3: her husband asked, are you sure you have the right person?

430
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 3: And they responded, well, we got one anyway. You know,

431
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 3: there's a lot of victims in this case.

432
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: The parents of the victim right, your girlfriend ended up

433
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: spending two years in prison.

434
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 3: My children, I can't explained watching what they went through,

435
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 3: you know, all through my children, you know, because every

436
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 3: step of the way they were my guiding light. They

437
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:46,959
Speaker 3: were my guiding light.

438
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: So finally the retrial is on. In January twenty nineteen,

439
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 1: despite the evidence pointing to the contrary, the state's ballistics

440
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 1: expert continued to connect the Taurus nine milimeters seize the

441
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: Patrick's apartment with the murder weapon. Meanwhile, the defense hired

442
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 1: two of the leading forensic firearm and tool mark experts

443
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: in the country, Chris Coleman and John Murdoch, who worked

444
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 1: independently of one another. That's important and arrived at the

445
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 1: same conclusion. The markings made on test bullets in nineteen

446
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: ninety three and twenty eleven by the tourist nine millimeters

447
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: seized from Patrick's apartment all matched and showed distinct similarities.

448
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 2: However, the test.

449
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,880
Speaker 1: Bullets did not match the bullets and casings recovered from

450
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety three crime scene. Therefore, the inescapable and

451
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 1: for the authorities in this case, the inconvenient truth was

452
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: that the Taurus nine millimeter did not could not have

453
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: fired the bullets that killed Andrew Ashmer. Finally, your day comes,

454
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 1: your day in court. Right, how good was that day

455
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 1: of vindication?

456
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 2: Did you float out of the courtroom like.

457
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 3: Well, It's really strange because as I'm caught up in

458
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 3: these events, I realized all that this is bigger than myself.

459
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 3: But I had to sit for a second trial, and

460
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 3: even though I knew I knew I was gonna be

461
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 3: found innocent, I really believed it that everything came out

462
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: the judge. It was very meticulous. He was very fair, right,

463
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 3: but it was still very much like dangling your feet

464
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 3: over hell fire because he could say guilty and you

465
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 3: go back. So that's in the back of my head.

466
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 3: So when I'm actually exonerated, when I leave the courtroom,

467
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 3: I still have that goofy look on my face, like right,

468
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 3: So I still was numb. You know, it's like end

469
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 3: to end because you really can't believe the gravity of

470
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 3: the circumstances that you're caught up in.

471
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: In the twenty five years, I've been working on these

472
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 1: cases and on this cause, criminal justice reform as a

473
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: whole deincarceration, mandatory sense, synologic decriminalization of drugs. You know,

474
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: my heart has been with the innocence movement for all

475
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: those years. So I'm always proselytizing the questions I get

476
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: asked most frequently by civilians who don't realize until we

477
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: talk about it that these wrongful convictions happen at the

478
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: rate that they do. As I didn't realize until I

479
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: found out, what happens to the people that did this

480
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: to you?

481
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 2: And we know you? Answer to that is nothing almost

482
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 2: always karma.

483
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 3: Karma's always there.

484
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 1: Karma is the thing. And two, do you get compensation?

485
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,479
Speaker 1: That question gets asked by everybody, and people just assume.

486
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 1: So when he walks out, tell me he got paid, right,

487
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: the state makes it up to him.

488
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I mean, Illinois has the statute. But

489
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 3: you have to basically go through another fight called a

490
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 3: certificate of innocence, and then after that is another fight

491
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 3: for the federal level for federal civil rights violations, which

492
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 3: would be a wrongful conviction suit. So it's a process

493
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 3: no one you know. Like I said, there's no reas

494
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 3: for the conquering hero. It doesn't work like that. They

495
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 3: fight fight, fight, fight, fight, because you're messing with people's careers.

496
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 3: It doesn't happen like that.

497
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: But it's so crazy because it's a tax payer money.

498
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: It's not like they're paying it themselves. In Illinois, there's

499
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 1: a cap on how much you can get as well,

500
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: unless you can prove a civil rights violation, right right.

501
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 3: But all those things are beyond they're beyond the kiln.

502
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 3: That's all down the line. I have to fight a

503
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 3: whole nother fight called certificate of innocence, just like the

504
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 3: post conviction petitions. So it's a fight after fight.

505
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: But even then, the cap is I think going to

506
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: surprise a lot of people how low it is. And

507
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: Illinois is not the worst state by far right, but

508
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: the cap here is what it's under.

509
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 3: Two hundred I know it's about one twenty something like.

510
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 2: That, under two hundred thousand dollars for twenty five years and.

511
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 1: Seven in present right, And that's after you fight, fight, fight,

512
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: fight fight.

513
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: The good news is we're moving.

514
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 1: The project has been really moving the needle on getting

515
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: laws passed state after state compensation laws. We're now up

516
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: to thirty five states that have in their fifteen states

517
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: that have no laws whatsoever. In some states that have

518
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: a match, I think Misconsot right next door has a

519
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,719
Speaker 1: cap of twenty five thousand dollars. So now you're out

520
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: right making speeches and anyone who has heard Patrick's story today,

521
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: If you know another organization, corporate, or otherwise that's interested

522
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: in having him come and speak, that's how you're supporting yourself.

523
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 3: I'll run my mouth for a living. That's what I do.

524
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 3: You run your mouth for I can't do much else.

525
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you could do that. So that's number one.

526
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: And then the other thing is, you know, we're just

527
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: out here trying to educate everyone. I mean, I'll ask

528
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: everybody that's here to ask everyone you know to serve

529
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: on a jury. Remember the things that you're hearing now

530
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: when you're in that jury box. You know, the research

531
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: is now showing the jurors are predisposed to think that

532
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: a person in defend this box is guilty just because

533
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 1: they're there eighty percent to twenty percent. So remember Patrick,

534
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: Remember what happened to him, And how what you're watching

535
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 1: unfold in front of you as you're holding somebody's life

536
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: in your hands, may not be what you're being told

537
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: that it is. So they're supposed to be a reasonable doubt,

538
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: reason of doubt, right, and they're supposed to be a

539
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: presumption of innocence.

540
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 2: None of that work.

541
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 3: No, it's a credibility deficit. There's a credibility deficit for

542
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 3: a defendant walking the door, period. And if you're poor,

543
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 3: there's a credibility deficit. And if you're behind bars and

544
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 3: you're fighting the case, you're not going nowhere unless you

545
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 3: have an attorney. So pro say gets no play.

546
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 2: Pro sake, get's no play.

547
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: I want to ask you this question as we wind down,

548
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: and I have one more question after this.

549
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 2: Are you bitter?

550
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 3: No?

551
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: No, that's I thought that was a good question.

552
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 3: No, it's no. I'm hurt. I'm very hurt. You know,

553
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 3: I have reservoirs of hurt. So seeing what this has

554
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 3: done to my children, you know, it's like stepping outside

555
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 3: of a time machine and not really connecting with nothing

556
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 3: out here because I'm the analog man from nineteen ninety three,

557
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: you know. So it's really a very strange, you know,

558
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 3: just surreal existence. But we make the best of it.

559
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 3: We make the best of it. You know. I amkculture

560
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 3: dot org. So I reduced gun and gag violence promote

561
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 3: higher education on the organization I found it while.

562
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: That I am kidculture dot org. And of course you're

563
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: on You're on all social media now too. You hit

564
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: the ground running. I mean, you only been el since

565
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: January you got I.

566
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: Was on social media before I got out that that

567
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 3: was that was my thing. I was a writer and

568
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 3: Michelle helped propagate the stories. And we had professors coming

569
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,239
Speaker 3: in and out Stateville for years who was taking our

570
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 3: material They were you know, volunteers, and they were taking

571
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 3: our materials to gang peace circles, high schools, colleges. Kit

572
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: Culture actually was born in Stateville, where I had a

573
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 3: natural life sentence. Also, I have a book on Amazon, also,

574
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 3: the Adventures of Kid Culture in the World Explorers. We

575
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 3: got t shirts on I amkidculture dot org. Please support, support,

576
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 3: support because we are trying to connect to stop the

577
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 3: violence movement across the country. Show culture to culture.

578
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: And one more thing, I got to ask this more

579
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: question before I get to the last part. So you

580
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: did talk very beautifully earlier about the programs that you

581
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: sponsored in prison and about the importance of education.

582
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 3: Yes, so basically everyone knows how the grants got took

583
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: in our prisons. Well, we led a fight to reverse that.

584
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 3: We had did charities in prison. Police left. We said

585
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 3: we're going to do hats for the homeless. So every

586
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 3: time we tried to do something positive. People kind of

587
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 3: like aah, right, well we still did it. So there

588
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: was very much that persistence. And also try to reach

589
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 3: out to the community at large to show, you know,

590
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 3: not just to stare the kids away from crime and

591
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 3: educate college kids that were volunteering to come into state

592
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: Bill also kind of educate the public at large. There's

593
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 3: a lot of mismanagement and gross waste of money in

594
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 3: the prison system.

595
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: Well said again.

596
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: And I now come to my favorite part of the show,

597
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: which is when I get to thank you Patrick Pursley

598
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: for coming and sharing your story, and you know, just

599
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: for being here and being such a great example for

600
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: everybody of the power of the human spirit. And thank

601
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: the audience here for being here and listening of course

602
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: Laura and Steve again for everything you're doing, and all

603
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: the great activists in the room. And this part of

604
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: the show I call it closing argument. This is where

605
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: I actually get to turn my mic off. Thank you

606
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 1: once again. Thank to everybody at home or on your

607
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: device wherever you're listening to Wrongful.

608
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: Conviction, Please check out the other episodes.

609
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: One story is crazier than the other and you can

610
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: learn something from each one of them. So now I'm

611
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: signing off and leaving your microphone on and I'm just

612
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: going to kick back and listen right.

613
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 3: Those and arguments. Remember, people, everything isn't always is seems.

614
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 3: Everyone has intrinsic value. Every one of us has value.

615
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 3: That has to be our mission to be able to

616
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 3: teach compassionate love. Right, So, facing the worst possible conditions,

617
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 3: you can still move mountains and that is very much

618
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 3: a testament to the spirit. And I have to thank Northwestern,

619
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 3: I have to thank you. I have to thank General Block, Prison,

620
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 3: Neighborhood Arts Project, Michelle, everyone that's been there every step

621
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 3: of the way. Because I'm a mess. I will tell

622
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 3: you I'm a mess. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise

623
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 3: that doing hard time and inhumane conditions, that would be

624
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 3: against the law for you to leave your dog in

625
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 3: So you think like that, So I always keep a

626
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 3: part of me in the cellhouse. Right. So right now,

627
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 3: let's see they're back from child. You know that you

628
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 3: have birds flying over their heads, you have spiders, you

629
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 3: have mice, You have people who are loved, you know,

630
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 3: loved ones and prisoners who are basically kind of get

631
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 3: the scarlet letter for loving a prisoner. You see what

632
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 3: I'm saying. So basically, if you have loved ones behind bars,

633
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 3: write iler it at wrongful conviction. Consultants were trying to

634
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 3: do something. We got allowed prisoners talk to us ellas

635
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: I amkidculture dot org. It's a five o' one c

636
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 3: three reducing gun and game violence. We did a mixtape.

637
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: Imagine that fifty three year old man come out prison,

638
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 3: do a mixtape and no, I'm not rapping. It just

639
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 3: tells the story of the wrongful conviction as well as

640
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 3: the violence and Rockford, but also the hope and always

641
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 3: work for love, Always work for love. It is the

642
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 3: highest vibration of human spirit. And that's my closing arguments.

643
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me.

644
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,959
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

645
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.

646
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: It really helps.

647
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Annescence Project, and

648
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

649
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

650
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: to Innocence Project dot org learn how to donate and

651
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

652
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

653
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: by three time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralft. Be sure

654
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: At Wrongful Conviction podcast.

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava

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Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one