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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is the brief

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Speaker 2: overview of Cliff Notes.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to do the Exhausted Encyclopedia documentary length

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Speaker 1: Cliff's Notes episode.

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Speaker 2: Nope, we are doing the brief overview of Cliff's Notes.

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Speaker 2: I said it wrong the first time. It's never been

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Speaker 2: cliff notes. It's Cliff's notes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the first thing we should probably say,

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Speaker 1: because Jerry and the pre show banter even got it wrong.

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Speaker 1: Even though I said, Jerry, we're doing an episode on

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Speaker 1: Cliff's notes. She said, I used to get cliff notes.

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Speaker 1: It's not cliff notes. I used to say cliff notes

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Speaker 1: too in high school. But it is Cliff's notes, as

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Speaker 1: in the person's nameless Cliff. As we'll soon found find out.

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Speaker 1: It used to an apostrophe, then it just became cliffs

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Speaker 1: two words notes without an apostrophe. Then it became cliffs

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Speaker 1: notes all one word, but with that end capitalized.

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Speaker 2: So stylish.

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Speaker 1: But it has never been cliff notes.

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Speaker 2: No, but everyone basically in the world calls it cliff.

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Speaker 1: Notes, right, and we should tell everyone what this is.

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Speaker 1: If you don't know, I do know that they went

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Speaker 1: around the world a little bit, but it feels like

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Speaker 1: a very American thing. It is a study aid. It's

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Speaker 1: basically sort of I was about to say a cliffs

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Speaker 1: Notes version of the book, because it's so in the

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Speaker 1: lexicon now. But it's like if you went to read

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Speaker 1: a book in high school in the eighties, like The

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Speaker 1: Scarlet Letter, and you're like, oh God, do I really

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Speaker 1: have to read the Scarlet Letter? You would go to

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Speaker 1: a store and you would buy this yellow and black,

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Speaker 1: very thin pamphlet. I don't remember how much they were then,

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Speaker 1: they're only about eight ninety nine now. Yeah, And it

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Speaker 1: would contextualize the work. It would summarize the work, give

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Speaker 1: the character descriptions, basically everything you needed to know the

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Speaker 1: night before to pass the test or write the paper.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and like you said, it's entered the lexicon. Most

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Speaker 2: people can recognize it just that from that yellow and

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Speaker 2: black cover it looks like a minute Work album cover. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: or Striper Striper, Yes, very nice. Maybe that's where Striper

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Speaker 2: got it maybe. And then yeah, most people in America

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Speaker 2: know what we're talking about. I do wonder how well

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Speaker 2: known it is around the world, though.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it ended up going to thirty

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Speaker 1: nine countries. But it just feels like a very lazy

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Speaker 1: American thing, especially for gen xers, to be like, I'll

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Speaker 1: just get that and that's fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's been long, basically from the outset, criticized

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Speaker 2: for being this thing that students read and use instead

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Speaker 2: of actually reading the material, the book that they're supposed

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Speaker 2: to read. That actually ran a foul. I guess of

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Speaker 2: what the guy who invented these things intent was. He

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Speaker 2: always said, no, this is not what that's for. You're

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Speaker 2: supposed to read the regular book. You're supposed to read

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Speaker 2: the Scarlet Letter, Chuck, and whether you like it or

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Speaker 2: not doesn't matter. And then you get the cliffs notes

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Speaker 2: and you understand it that much more fully. That was

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Speaker 2: the point.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And of course we're talking about Keith Hilla Gas.

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Speaker 1: Oh I'm kidding. Clifton Heath kill A Gas. His name

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Speaker 1: was cliff a gentleman was a true corn Huskers. We'll see.

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Speaker 1: He was born in nineteen eighteen out in the rural

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Speaker 1: sticks of Nebraska. His father was a mail carrier and

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Speaker 1: he was a very smart kid, and I would assume

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Speaker 1: a smart adult because he studied physics and math at

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Speaker 1: Midland Lutheran College and then was going to grad school

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Speaker 1: for physics and geology at the University of Nebraska, Go

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Speaker 1: corn Huskers, Okay, but dropped out in nineteen thirty nine

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Speaker 1: to marry a classmate named Katherine Gallbraith, at which time

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Speaker 1: he got a job at Long's College Books as a clerk,

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Speaker 1: and that company would later become the Nebraska Book Company.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, long story short, Cliff Hill of Gas was

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Speaker 2: a very smart guy. I saw that he was said

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Speaker 2: to read five books a week basically his whole life.

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Speaker 1: Or did he just read five quick summaries?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I just don't know because he's dead

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Speaker 2: now and we can't ask him.

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Speaker 1: That's right. But he worked at the NBC Nebraska Book

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Speaker 1: Company up until World War Two when he went to

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Speaker 1: the Army. He was a meteorologist for the Army Air Corps.

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Speaker 1: So again, pretty smart dude ended up a captain and

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Speaker 1: his wife, Catherine, worked as a clerk for the Manhattan Project,

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Speaker 1: so she was sharp as attack as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, I want to give big ups. Are we

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Speaker 2: still saying big ups? Heck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, man, we're old people. We can say whatever we want.

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Speaker 2: I want to give big ups to Olivia who helped

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Speaker 2: us out with this, because there is not a lot

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Speaker 2: of information on cliff Notes out there. Yeah, it's like

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Speaker 2: it's just not out there. You can get like the

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Speaker 2: like appropriately enough to brief overview of cliff Notes in

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Speaker 2: its history, but to really dig in and get the details,

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Speaker 2: you got to get out there. So thanks to her

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Speaker 2: for that.

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Speaker 1: She did it. I think she broke into the estate

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Speaker 1: of the Hillo Gas estate and stole a diary. She did,

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Speaker 1: I think so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And then also I want to give big ups

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Speaker 2: to Mental Flows too because they did some really good

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Speaker 2: reporting on it, to some good digging.

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Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. All right. So back to Cliff Hillogas

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Speaker 1: he was in the army. Then after the war he

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Speaker 1: went back to his old job at the Nebraska Book Company.

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Speaker 2: And we knew you'd be crawling back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And he helped transform them into a wholesale textbook distributor,

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Speaker 1: and he ended up sort of traveling all over the

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Speaker 1: country buying and selling used textbooks. When a little trip

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Speaker 1: to Toronto, Canada ended up being quite a good thing

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Speaker 1: for the course of his life, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, depending on who you're talking about. It wasn't that

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Speaker 2: good of a thing for named Jack Cole, the guy

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Speaker 2: who we had dinner with in Toronto, who was a

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Speaker 2: bookstore owner. And Jack Cole was like, hey, man, I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna let you in on this business opportunity. I have

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Speaker 2: these condensed pamphlets that basically are analysis of Shakespeare's place.

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Speaker 2: I publish sixteen of them, and I think the quote

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Speaker 2: from Cliff Hillogas was Jack Cole said yes, I know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he said, I want you to be the American distributor

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Speaker 2: of these pamphlets, which I call Cole's Notes. And Clifton

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Speaker 2: Hilligas said, all right, I'll give it a shot, and

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Speaker 2: started selling these things, publishing them and selling them in America.

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Speaker 2: And what happened from Cole's Notes.

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Speaker 1: Chuck, Well, the first thing we should say is he

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Speaker 1: took a great risk. And I'm not like, you know,

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Speaker 1: weighing in one way or the other of the ethics

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Speaker 1: of any of this. But Hillogas did take upon great

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Speaker 1: financial risks. Huh. He got a loan for four thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars to make this happen close to fifty grand today,

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Speaker 1: and printed up thirty three thousand copies of these Cole's

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Speaker 1: Notes himself, and he and his wife Catherine and their

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Speaker 1: three young kids, like packed and shipped these things in

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Speaker 1: their house, out of their home for a little while,

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Speaker 1: and we're selling pretty good. And then what happened.

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Speaker 2: Josh, Well, yeah, so they were paying royalties to Jet Cole.

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Speaker 2: That was the setup, and within the first year, I

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Speaker 2: guess Hilla Gas was like nuts to that, I'm just

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Speaker 2: going to rename these things cliff Notes Cliffs Notes. So

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Speaker 2: they went from Cole's Notes to cliffs Notes. I think

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Speaker 2: the Cole was heard to say and Cliff was like,

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Speaker 2: I can't hear you. I'm done in Nebraska. So I

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Speaker 2: just see people gloss over this all the time like

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Speaker 2: it's I just don't understand why it's not at all

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Speaker 2: controversial because he clearly just took he just lifted the

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Speaker 2: intellectual property of Jet Cole and took it as his own.

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Speaker 2: To be fair, he re wrote and phased out the

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Speaker 2: Cole's Note stuff, but the whole concept and even basically

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Speaker 2: the name was the same.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would argue that maybe the name is intellectual property,

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Speaker 1: but I think in a court of law a judge

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Speaker 1: would say, like you can't claim like doing a condensed

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Speaker 1: version of a book as like an original idea that

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Speaker 1: no one else can do, because there were summaries before this.

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Speaker 1: They didn't invent the idea of a literary summary, you

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Speaker 1: know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but if law and Order has taught me anything,

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Speaker 2: it's that you can't predict what a judge is going

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Speaker 2: to rule.

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Speaker 1: No, that's true, but and I do. I'm not like

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Speaker 1: going to bat for Cliff. I'm just saying that I

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Speaker 1: don't think that's one of those ideas you can say,

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Speaker 1: like I hold the idea for condensing a long novel

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Speaker 1: into a shorter version.

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Speaker 2: No, I understand, And I'm not trying to like gun

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Speaker 2: him down. I just hadn't gotten my gotcha today, so

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Speaker 2: that was right.

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Speaker 1: I do feel bad for Cole though, if it helps.

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Speaker 2: I do too, and nowhere what his his his reaction

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Speaker 2: was or what he did. I made up his quote

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Speaker 2: of that was right. But yeah, everybody just walks right

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Speaker 2: past that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah for sure.

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Speaker 2: And I refuse to well people.

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Speaker 1: I feel like everyone is called out online for doing

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Speaker 1: something like this, but old old Cliff gets a pass,

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Speaker 1: I guess because everyone got through school because of him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. So, yeah, this is not to

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Speaker 2: paint him as a bad guy. If you want to

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Speaker 2: know about him. He treasured letters that he got from

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Speaker 2: students thanking him for helping them get through school, which

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Speaker 2: you and I can attest. Getting a letter and email

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Speaker 2: like that is really great. So I guess that makes

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Speaker 2: us really great too. If I'm saying that that makes

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Speaker 2: him a good guy, that's wonderful. That really worked out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he sold a lot of these pretty quickly, though.

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Speaker 1: I do like how Olivia, but he gradually phased out

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Speaker 1: the original material, right, It seemed like that happened within

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Speaker 1: that first year. Yeah, but he was I also couldn't

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Speaker 1: find when he stopped paying the royalties. It was that

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Speaker 1: during the first year or two.

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing when it became cliff notes. He yeah, stopped

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Speaker 2: paying royalty probably right.

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Speaker 1: But nevertheless, between the start of when he started doing

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Speaker 1: that in August of nineteen fifty eight and just yet

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Speaker 1: six months six months later, at the end of that year,

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Speaker 1: he had sold fifty eight thousand copies of these book

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Speaker 1: summaries and pamphlets, and by nineteen sixty four, but six

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Speaker 1: years later, he was doing it. He was doing all

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Speaker 1: this on the side from the Nebraska Book Company. He

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Speaker 1: was able to quit that job by sixty four, and

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Speaker 1: just the sixties were a big decade period. He quit

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Speaker 1: that job in sixty four. He changed the name in

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Speaker 1: the sixties from Cliff's Notes without the apostrophe to cliffs Notes, Big,

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Speaker 1: big deal. And then he got divorced in nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: six and got remarried.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Later on he got remarried to a woman named Mary. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I guess he adopted her two kids. Another thing

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Speaker 2: that shows he's a stand up guy. Really, the only

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Speaker 2: blemish on his entire lifetime is how he treated Jack Cole.

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Speaker 1: That's true. But did those kids biological father get royalties

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Speaker 1: on those children?

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Speaker 2: Named them Cliff's kids. They were originally Jack Cole's because

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Speaker 2: he stole his wife Mary.

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Speaker 1: Oh man uh, And everyone just glosses right over there.

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Speaker 1: Should we take a break? Sure, all right, we'll take

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Speaker 1: an early break here because this one's probably a little

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Speaker 1: bit shorter, and we'll talk about the early days of

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Speaker 1: that company right after this.

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Speaker 2: We los so much stuff from Josh and shuck stuff futi.

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Speaker 2: So we should say, despite legendarily reading five books a week,

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Speaker 2: Hilly guests didn't write any of the cliffs notes. He

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Speaker 2: was more like the business guy. He Yeah, he had

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Speaker 2: the ide you would put in scare quotes, and he

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Speaker 2: was running the whole operation. He had the vision for it, right,

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Speaker 2: So he hired other people and initially hired literature teachers

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Speaker 2: like hardcore, like hardcore, like they have crew cuts and

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Speaker 2: wear like army boots and stuff like that kind of

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Speaker 2: lit teacher. But he realized something very quickly that I'm

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Speaker 2: sure developed. A hardcore lit teacher who's been teaching the

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Speaker 2: same books, been teaching a Scarlet Letter for I think

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Speaker 2: we should not mention a single other book besides a

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Speaker 2: Scarlet Letter in this episode. What do you think?

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Speaker 1: Agreed?

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Speaker 2: All right, let's give it a shot. These hardcore lit

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Speaker 2: teachers who have been teaching a Scarlet Letter or the

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Speaker 2: Scarlet Letter, sorry for twenty years. Technically I just named

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Speaker 2: another book, Chuck for twenty years. These people know too much,

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Speaker 2: They understand the book too well, they know all the

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Speaker 2: details that they just get mired down when they're writing

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Speaker 2: a synopsis or something. It's just too intense for the audience,

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Speaker 2: which is high school and call it reads usually undergrad readers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he was like, well, pump your brakes. I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to sell these to lazy kids, exactly like broad Overview. Please.

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Speaker 1: He ended up with grad students, mainly saying that they

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Speaker 1: did the best work, which makes sense too, that's right.

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Speaker 1: But we mentioned the iconic yellow and black design. That

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Speaker 1: was something Cliff thought of himself. I remember the Mountain

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Speaker 1: Cliffs even being on the editions I had when I was,

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Speaker 1: you know, a student in the eighties. I don't think

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Speaker 1: they have that anymore, but they have these yellow and

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Speaker 1: black stripes. They just it looks. I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: genius branding move, just to do that simple little thing.

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Speaker 1: Because Cliff's Notes were so identifiable from from across a

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Speaker 1: bookstore the night before a test or something, you could

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Speaker 1: zoom over to that, that spinning rack of yellow and

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Speaker 1: black pamphlets.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they would. You'd walk in the bookstore and they'd

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Speaker 2: call to you, don't bother come by, Yeah, exactly. So

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Speaker 2: one of the big things. I didn't know this, but

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Speaker 2: one of the big reasons Cliff Notes became the brand

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Speaker 2: that it is today, which is to say iconic, is

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Speaker 2: because they advertised a lot in the sixties and they

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Speaker 2: very wisely went to where their readership was. They advertised

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Speaker 2: in seventeen, they advertised in Playboy, they advertised in well,

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Speaker 2: the Scholastic Journal. I don't know how much of a

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Speaker 2: return on investment they got on that. But they also

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Speaker 2: advertise in college newspapers bingo. Yeah, and so like if

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Speaker 2: you're if you're going to high schoolers and college kids

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Speaker 2: and saying, hey, we have something that you it's going

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Speaker 2: to keep you from having to read a scarlet letter,

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Speaker 2: the scarlet letter, like don't you want that? And they say, yes,

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Speaker 2: I want that so bad. Like it just it just

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Speaker 2: rooted that business and simultaneously made it take off like

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Speaker 2: a rocket.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And you would open up the scarlet letter

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Speaker 1: Cliff notes and it would say the letter is a

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Speaker 1: the end.

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Speaker 2: That's why I keep a scarlet letter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, probably could is it is literally a A for awesome, No,

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Speaker 1: not quite. One thing Cliff had in his corner was

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Speaker 1: all his work for the Nebraska Book Company and being

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Speaker 1: a traveling salesperson and all these relationships he had with

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Speaker 1: bookstores because he owned the market for this eighty percent

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Speaker 1: of the market for guides to literature belonged to Cliff.

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Speaker 1: Because that was just it. I mean I think I

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Speaker 1: think for a long time, I mean, competitors would come along,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk about that, but I think he had

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Speaker 1: a number of years, maybe even decades, where everyone was

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Speaker 1: just like, well, no, there's already cliff Notes, Like why

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Speaker 1: even bother m.

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Speaker 2: He owns it, right, That wasn't enough to keep people

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Speaker 2: from coming along as competitors. But it does seem like

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Speaker 2: they really didn't start to emerge until much much later

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Speaker 2: in history. Yeah, like decades and decades on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that cliss Notes have long been

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Speaker 2: criticized for, though, is like they write they write the

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Speaker 2: book on the scarlet letter, and that's that. Like what

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Speaker 2: you are reading could have been written by a grad

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Speaker 2: student in nineteen sixty eight, even though you just bought

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Speaker 2: this thing like last week. That's not the case any longer.

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Speaker 2: It's changed hands, and as it's changed hands several times,

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Speaker 2: they've definitely been dusted off and brushed up in all

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Speaker 2: those idioms. But for a very long time it was

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Speaker 2: like this is really old fashioned stuff, especially like the

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Speaker 2: language they use, the points they're making a lot of.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that cliss Notes was known for

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Speaker 2: is putting works of literature specifically the Scarlet Letter into

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Speaker 2: a historical context, and that can change as people understand

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Speaker 2: history more. But if you don't go update it, it's

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Speaker 2: the understanding of it.

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Speaker 1: Eighteen sixty eight, Yeah, for sure. You know we mentioned

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Speaker 1: the sixties. You just mentioned sixty eight for crying out loud. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: being a kind of a big decade for the business.

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Speaker 1: It was toward the end of that decade that things

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Speaker 1: got a little rocky. It was around nineteen sixty nine

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Speaker 1: that a couple of things happened to sort of dampen

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Speaker 1: the business, I guess a little bit. And this is

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Speaker 1: something I didn't know, but apparently starting in nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: nine and through the first, you know, bit of the seventies,

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Speaker 1: the classics people are like, Hey, all these new teachers

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Speaker 1: came along and're like, hey, we don't need to read

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Speaker 1: the Scarlett Letter anymore. We're going to read another unnamed

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Speaker 1: book that's a little more current. And so the classics

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Speaker 1: kind of fell off a little bit. And apparently a

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Speaker 1: lot of high schools and colleges started the past fail thing.

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Speaker 1: So a kid wasn't as incentivized to ace a test,

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Speaker 1: they were just incentivized to pass a test. So They're like,

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Speaker 1: I don't even need the cliff notes. I can just

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Speaker 1: kind of fake my way through and pass this thing.

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Speaker 1: As a result, they dropped about a million bucks a

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Speaker 1: year in sales up until like the mid seventies, when

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Speaker 1: they were like, oh my god, what were we thinking.

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Speaker 1: We got to put the scarlet letterback on the reading list,

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Speaker 1: and we have to grade these kids according to their grade.

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Speaker 1: This past failed thing is not doing anyone any favors.

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Speaker 2: It's chaos.

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Speaker 1: It's chaos.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Not only did they drop a million in sales,

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Speaker 2: they dropped a million units in the middle.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was sales.

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Speaker 2: No, Like, the number of sales that they made dropped

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Speaker 2: from two point eight million to one point eight million.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I was pretty sure that was dollars. But and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure if you're positive that it's units, I will

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Speaker 1: move on.

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Speaker 2: Seventy eight percent positive.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, Well that tracks because I was twenty two

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Speaker 1: percent pots okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And Cliff Hill of Gas was like, you hippies

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Speaker 2: right for that huge loss in sales for the mid seventies. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So there was another stumble that they made Cliff's cassettes,

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Speaker 2: which was a good idea if you ask me, totally.

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Speaker 2: It was cliff Notes, but in a cassette version that

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Speaker 2: your kids could pop into their Walkman and walk around

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Speaker 2: listening to you.

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Speaker 1: Want to be lazier in?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. You don't even have to walk around. You

360
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,720
Speaker 2: can lay there and listen to this stuff with your

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Speaker 2: eyes closed, in your hands soaking in Paul Mallin.

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Speaker 1: If you don't want to read the Scarlet Letter, and

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Speaker 1: you don't want to read the forty seven page summary,

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Speaker 1: how about you just pop in that cassette and lay

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Speaker 1: on your bed and smoke some.

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Speaker 2: Grass, yeah, and listen to Ed Asner tell you what

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Speaker 2: the Scarlet Letter means.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, was that planned or did you just come

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Speaker 1: up with that ad?

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Speaker 2: I just came up with that.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's so great. This was only about a six

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Speaker 1: month thing. It did not go over well despite being

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Speaker 1: a pretty good idea that got me thinking about just

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Speaker 1: audio books or books on tape and when that was

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Speaker 1: a thing. Apparently that started in nineteen thirty two. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the American Foundation for the Blind opened up a recording studio,

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Speaker 1: So it was a thing, but I feel like it

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Speaker 1: didn't really take off until much, much, much later.

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Speaker 2: Until the Walkman. Did you have a Walkman by the way.

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Speaker 1: Ah, yeah, of course I did.

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00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,920
Speaker 2: Nice. I did too. I associated specifically with my cassette

382
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Speaker 2: of Huey Lewis and the News.

383
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Speaker 1: Sports one of the great records of all time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is really good.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I ever had a disc man.

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Speaker 2: I didn't either.

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Speaker 1: I think I went straight from Walkman to cheese. I

388
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Speaker 1: guess iPod as far as walking around.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I never had an iPod. I went from

390
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Speaker 2: Walkman to iPhone.

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Speaker 1: I guess I had the first iPod.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I had the first, not the you know,

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Speaker 1: not Steve Jobs's iPod, but you know, the first, the

395
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Speaker 1: first edition. I still have it. It still works.

396
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Speaker 2: Oh do you really? Wow, that's really saying something.

397
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. I put pictures of it on my Instagram not

398
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,199
Speaker 1: too long ago actually, because I found it, charged it,

399
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,719
Speaker 1: and I just put up the opening screen because you know,

400
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,719
Speaker 1: the first Walkman had everything in alphabetical order just on

401
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 1: the screen when he opened it. Yeah, and boy it

402
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 1: was eight, eight or nine bands locked in time from

403
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 1: I guess like two thousand or something whatever that was.

404
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:08,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't have one of those.

405
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I'm gonna get you a maybe a Nano

406
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:13,160
Speaker 1: no need.

407
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Speaker 2: Those things were tiny though. They were like the size

408
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Speaker 2: of a thumb of steak.

409
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Speaker 1: Yeah, or a square of chocolate.

410
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, there you ca Yeah, we'll keep going right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mentioned Hillograss was a true corn Husker. He

412
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 1: kept that company in Nebraska. He felt very strongly about

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00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 1: that and donated ten percent of its profits to Nebraska organizations.

414
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Speaker 1: Was a big curator of the art, So the Museum

415
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,680
Speaker 1: of Nebraska Art was a big one that benefited from

416
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Speaker 1: his stealing that idea from coal and they have. If

417
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Speaker 1: you've ever looked up, like, hey, what does this guy

418
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,439
Speaker 1: look like? Anyway, you might see a bronze statue of him,

419
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Speaker 1: and that is from that Museum of Nebraska Art.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's standing up in some bushes like a creep

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Speaker 2: with a book open.

422
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: What else? What happened in nineteen eighty three?

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Speaker 2: He this is this? This? I think this also kind

424
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 2: of puts a certain like that it paints a picture

425
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Speaker 2: of this guy. That's what I'm trying to say. At

426
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Speaker 2: age sixty five on the dot, he retires, Okay, yeah,

427
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 2: like that's just the kind of guy he was. But

428
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Speaker 2: he didn't actually retire. He just stepped down from company

429
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Speaker 2: president to the head of the board of directors. Yeah,

430
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Speaker 2: and he still went into the office every day.

431
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he instead of calling him mister hilligas they said,

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Speaker 1: you can come a cliff.

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Speaker 2: Right, he would show up in like a smoking jacket

434
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Speaker 2: and ascot after he retired.

435
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 1: Exactly, but he'd still called the shots.

436
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 2: Right. But that's just I mean, I can totally because

437
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 2: don't forget he was trained in geology, math physics, like

438
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 2: he had a certain way of looking at things for sure.

439
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. That a couple of years later, in nineteen eighty five,

440
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: that was a Chicago Tribune article. So this is mid eighties.

441
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 1: They had a staff of about twenty five people, and

442
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 1: they had published two hundred and twenty five five guide

443
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: books or book guides rather sixty million copies in circulation.

444
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: And yes, I nailed it, thirty nine countries in circulation,

445
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 1: and apparently there were some countries that used them to

446
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 1: help teach American English in different.

447
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 2: Countries, sure, especially the English used by Americans. In nineteen sixty.

448
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: Eight, that's right. By the end of the eighties they

449
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: were taking in about eleven million bucks a year, which

450
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 1: is pretty good. Scratch it, just about twenty eight today

451
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,640
Speaker 1: twenty eight million. Yeah, that's even better scratch, And by

452
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: the end of the millennium in nineteen ninety nine, at

453
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 1: the age of eighty one, he sold it off. He

454
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 1: was like, all right, I'm eighty one. I want to

455
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: live out my remaining years as a super rich guy

456
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: and not just a medium rich guy. So he sold

457
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 1: to IDG Books, who was a publisher of the Four

458
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: Dummies guides that everyone knows, and he sold for only

459
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,919
Speaker 1: fourteen million, which kind of surprises me. Fully retired and

460
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: sadly died a couple of years later at eighty three

461
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 1: from complications of stroke.

462
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 2: I've always wondered what that is like guys in particular,

463
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 2: retiring and then dying like very soon after that. It's

464
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: kind of a thing. And even if you don't die,

465
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 2: you can, like a lot of people just get like

466
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 2: really sick for a while afterwards. And I don't know

467
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 2: if it's like you've been running on adrenaline last five

468
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 2: years or what the deal is, but it's like when

469
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 2: you finally your body finally resets, like I don't have

470
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 2: to go to work anymore. Something happens to you.

471
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 1: Are you saying this personally to me? So I, yep,

472
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 1: can consider this as I.

473
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 2: Wait my future retiring choke.

474
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 1: It was bought and sold a few more times, though.

475
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: In two thousand and one, John Wiley and Son's bought

476
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: the brand. They changed the name this time. This is

477
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: when they squashed it together as Cliff's Notes with the

478
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: Capitol NY. Then Houghton Mifflin Harcourt bought it in twenty twelve,

479
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: and then Course Hero bought it in twenty one.

480
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense to courts heroes a online tutor. Essentially,

481
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 2: they have courses and their heroes for it.

482
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: And one final thing before we take the break, is

483
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: it is I think the New York Times and the

484
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: Early aughts did a report and they found that it's

485
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: not just lazy high school kids that are buying these books.

486
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: They found out it's lazy adults in book clubs. They

487
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: want to participate in the book club, but they maybe

488
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: don't have the time to read the Scarlet Letter, so

489
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: they'll get the cliff Notes so they can go and

490
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: have some wine and talk about the abridged version.

491
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: Right, you can tell the ones that read the cliff

492
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 2: Notes of the Scarlet Letter because they're the ones who

493
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 2: thought it was really good.

494
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 1: That's right, And it's also the yellow and black is

495
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: sticking out from their fanny.

496
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 2: Fact, they have a little piece of it in their teeth.

497
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: Right, all right, shall we take our second break? Yes,

498
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: all right, we'll be back and pick up on where

499
00:25:53,160 --> 00:26:08,479
Speaker 1: we are today with Cliff and his notes. We loss

500
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: so much stuff from Josh and Shook.

501
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 2: Still fui.

502
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: All right, as promised, we're going to talk about Cliffs

503
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: Notes today. You can still buy these pamphlets. Like I said,

504
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 1: I looked up online if you want to buy the

505
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: scarlet letter and hold it in your hand. I think

506
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: it was eight ninety nine somewhere a little less. But

507
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: they're kind of in that ballpark.

508
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: Aren't they used? Though they're not newly printed.

509
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean they saw them on Amazon

510
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: that still could be used.

511
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 2: I guess that was my take that they're used, But

512
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: who knows.

513
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 1: Maybe I do know that their main source of income

514
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: now is the website that offers most of this stuff

515
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: for free, which is weird that they also have a

516
00:26:58,200 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: fee model.

517
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can subscribe to Cliffs Notes today for

518
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: I think nine dollars a month or thirty six bucks

519
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 2: a year, and you get all of the free stuff,

520
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: but you can also download it as a PDF, so

521
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: if you learned better by like reading on print or

522
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 2: on paper, you would need to do that. But they

523
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: also have other stuff too. There's like much more in

524
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 2: depth guides and analysis and stuff like that behind their paywall.

525
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 2: So it's not like you're just a total sucker for

526
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: paying for free cliffs Notes, because they have a bunch

527
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: of stuff that's not just free.

528
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I got, we're not going to go through

529
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: this list, but Olivia was kind enough, I think because

530
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: she needed to fulfill a word count to list out

531
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 1: what you get in the actual free version of let's say,

532
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: the Scarlet Letter. And my take is that you get

533
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 1: a pretty good like summary and chapter by chapter thing

534
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: and character analysis and all that stuff. But it's just

535
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: even a lesser version than the more or robust paid monthly.

536
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 2: Right, and I mean it's even more. It's like there's

537
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: pretty good detail in it. Like for their their analysis

538
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 2: of The Scarlet Letter, they talk about how the Scarlet

539
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: Letter fits into dystopian fiction in general, yeah, or how

540
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: Big Brother in the Scarlet Letter can be compared to

541
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: Hitler stallin yeh, or when hester Prinne develops news speak,

542
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 2: what all that means.

543
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, an a biography of George Orwell, the writer

544
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: of the Scarlet Letter.

545
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff. I went

546
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: in and poked around, and it is a lot of

547
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: free stuff. Like you could write a numerous really good

548
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 2: slam dunk papers on the Scarlet Letter just from the

549
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 2: free stuff that they have available. So I'm a little

550
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: curious too what their business model is, because it doesn't

551
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: really make sense to me unless it's a portal two

552
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 2: course Hero. Now that I think about it, I'll bet

553
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: it is. I'll bet they get you with the free

554
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: stuff and then they get you into course Hero, and

555
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: they turn you upside down and shake you by your

556
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 2: ankles until all the change falls out of your pockets?

557
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: Do you want to be a better student for nine

558
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: books a month? So we should talk a little bit

559
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: more about the elephant in the room, which is that

560
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: this is just a way for kids to cheat. I mean,

561
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: the other elephant is we haven't discussed our own cliff notes.

562
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: Cliff notes use I will volunteer my own. You don't

563
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: have to answer, I've never used them. Okay, Well, go

564
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: ahead and just make me look bad right before I

565
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: say that I leaned on them.

566
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: No worse than that. I never I didn't even bother

567
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 2: to use the cliff notes. I didn't read the material either.

568
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: Oh.

569
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,479
Speaker 2: I was just a really, really lame high school student.

570
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: In high school, I was not good at all. I

571
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 2: didn't blossom until college.

572
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: Okay, I do remember that now. But you were setting

573
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: me up to look like a chump.

574
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: I No, I didn't saved you, thank you like hester

575
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 2: I did it in the Scarlet Letter.

576
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: That's right. I did use cliff notes, not exclude. I

577
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: was always a believer, and this is not right, kids

578
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: of I love to read. I was an English major,

579
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: for heaven's sake. No, so I love to read, but

580
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: I wanted to read what I wanted to read. Emily

581
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: still sort of challenges me, not on just reading, but

582
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: like Chuck only does what he wants to do, that

583
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: kind of thing. That's not the best trade, everybody, you

584
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: should not be like Chuck. But I wanted to read

585
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: what I wanted to read. I didn't want to read

586
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: the Scarlet Letter. So I got the cliffs notes and

587
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: you know, probably peruse the Scarlet Letter. The books that

588
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: I was like, I totally want to read that I

589
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: can't think of another book.

590
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: Title, the Scarlet Letter.

591
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would read that Scarlet Letter. I wouldn't read

592
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: the one they assigned to me. So I did use

593
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: cliff notes. I did that was in high school. Did

594
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: not use them in college as an English major because

595
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: I felt like it was time to get a little

596
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: more serious and I chose that major willingly, so I

597
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: should probably do the work. And that was only work

598
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,959
Speaker 1: in college I really really enjoyed was reading and writing.

599
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: So I didn't use him in college. But all that

600
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: to say, the elephant in the room is like, is

601
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: this just for lazy kids? And you mentioned that Hilligas

602
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: was like no, but how would he enforce that or

603
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: encourage that?

604
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: Rather with a stern note? Yeah, at the beginning of

605
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: every copy of cliff Notes, he had a little note.

606
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: His signature was next to it too. He said that

607
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: a thorough appreciation of literature allows no shortcuts, and students

608
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: who use them to avoid reading the actual material or

609
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: having to go into class for discussion groups about the

610
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 2: material are denying themselves the very education that they are

611
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 2: presumably giving their most vital years to achieve. And I

612
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 2: feel like he took a bit of an utopian approach

613
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: to how he viewed his customers. But surely there was

614
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: some out there. I do wonder if there was a

615
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: single cliff Notes buyer who read that note and was like,

616
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: you know what, I'm going to change my wage. I'm

617
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: abusing these things.

618
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: I doubt it, but I'm sure there were students like

619
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: I did, at times where a book was a little

620
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: over their head and they used the cliff Notes as

621
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: intended to help with the book.

622
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 2: I saw also that some teachers did that. They actually

623
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 2: suggested cliffs Notes for some students, which meant that your

624
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: teacher thought you were a dip stick.

625
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,479
Speaker 1: Well. Teachers also were on record as using it for

626
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: lesson planning, sometimes because they didn't want to read the

627
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: scarlet letter either.

628
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: That's really hilarious. That's so missus Kravopple, it totally is.

629
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 2: And then a lot of them actually used cliff Notes

630
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: for the opposite reasons. They would know like like, if

631
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: you're a high school English teacher, there's a handful of

632
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 2: the scarlet letters that you've assigned during the year, and

633
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 2: you assigned the same scarlet letters over and over again,

634
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 2: year after year, so you probably know the cliffs Notes

635
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: on those things. By heart, so you can very easily

636
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: pick out when somebody is not only using the cliffs Notes,

637
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: but way worse than that, it's actually plagiarizing the cliffs Notes.

638
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: That was the low laziest thing you could possibly do.

639
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: Prior to chat GPT writing your your paper for you.

640
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is coming from two gen xers, and we

641
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: wrote the book on how to get away with lazy.

642
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. I didn't even read the material or the cliffs Notes.

643
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: That's pretty lazy.

644
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. Certain universities took charge. In nineteen ninety seven, Villanova

645
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: pulled cliff Notes from their college bookstore. Other bookstores maybe

646
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: didn't sell them, but they're the only one that Livy

647
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: could find at least that actually pulled them off the shelves.

648
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. They were famously sent in a hit squad that

649
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 2: ended up trashing the bookstore and tore up all of

650
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: the cliffs Notes. And when they left, they threw flash

651
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: bang grenades into the bookstore as they take.

652
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: Off, and yellow h Hut Cliff did not like this,

653
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: and they took out a full page ad. I guess

654
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: he was passed away by this point, but the company

655
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: didn't like this, and they took an ad in the

656
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: Villanova student newspaper called it censorship, and the college just

657
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: like they can still mind these things anywhere. This is

658
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: sort of a symbolic gesture calm down.

659
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, we kind of touched on and we didn't say

660
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: it like overtly, But there were a lot of teachers

661
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 2: out there who were okay with cliff Notes, and some

662
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: who even encouraged their use. That seems to have come

663
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 2: along like a generation after cliffs Notes came out, which

664
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 2: is not coincidental because a lot of those people who

665
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 2: grew up to be English teachers and English professors used

666
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 2: cliff Notes when they went through school themselves, so at

667
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 2: the very least they had a certain fondness of it,

668
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: and at best they were like, this is actually super

669
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: helpful as a reference material.

670
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And if you have a set of

671
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: cliffs Notes that you have read recently from later in

672
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: the company's story, you're like, hey, man, I didn't see

673
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: any note from cliff saying these aren't shortcuts. Ps enjoyed

674
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: the shortcut. This didn't have anything in it. I think

675
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 1: the minute he sold that company, they were like, let's

676
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: get rid of that note. Yeah, it's a real dragon.

677
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: Not only that, like our advertising should actively encourage the

678
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: fact that this is a shortcut.

679
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty much what they did.

680
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: Let's own it.

681
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they did own it. I think they kind

682
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: of walked it back a little bit, so there's like

683
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: a watered down version of his note essentially saying the

684
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 2: same thing. But they definitely did. They said the the

685
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: unspoken part out loud. I guess is how they put it.

686
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Is this Here's the big question though,

687
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: and I'm glad Livia posed this question, like is it

688
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: bad to use cliffs notes and the very idea of

689
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: like do kids need to read the Scarlet Letter or

690
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: is the only reason they're reading the Scarlet Letter to

691
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: just not look like a dipstick when someone brings up

692
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: the Scarlet Letter, like do you just need to be

693
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: acquainted with this stuff as a cultural touch point in

694
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,879
Speaker 1: life or to get a Jeopardy answer correct or I'm sorry,

695
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: Jeopardy clue correct.

696
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: Man.

697
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: We almost got our membership provoked. And you know this

698
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: is me speaking. I think, yeah, like you should read

699
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 1: these books, and a lot of people are on record

700
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: saying yeah, I mean, not necessarily just a scarlet letter,

701
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 1: but it's called I believe there's a literature scholar from

702
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: the University of Kentucky named Alan Nadell that calls it

703
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 1: the labor of witnessing, Like to actually read the thing

704
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: is the thing. It's not reading the Wikipedia, I think

705
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: that was. She found a redditor East t X Josh

706
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 1: that said, it's like reading the Wikipedia on Beethoven's ninth

707
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: but not listening to it. There's something about experiencing the

708
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: thing that is different and valuable.

709
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and reading all this chuck made me realize

710
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: how much I missed out by not reading all those

711
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 2: books in high school. You still can, buddy, right, So

712
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 2: I went on a couple of like I searched books

713
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 2: you should read before you die, and that brought up

714
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: humorous lists, and there's some that appear on all the lists.

715
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 2: And I'm still searching for which the Scarlet Letter I'm

716
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 2: going to read?

717
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: Right, but single book?

718
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you have any recommendations for one to start with,

719
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: let me know.

720
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 1: Well, you know it would be fun. As our mutual

721
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:36,479
Speaker 1: friend Joey Siara of the Henry Clay People who are friends,

722
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: who wrote that and performed the theme song to our

723
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: television show and still a good friend. I'm going to

724
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: see he's going to Glengarry with me this weekend.

725
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 2: Very nice.

726
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: He is a Moby Dick aficionado and collects copies and

727
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 1: versions of that, and he said that is the best

728
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 1: book of all time. He said, it's not my favorite book.

729
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: He said, it's the best book.

730
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 2: You mean the Scarlet Letter, the one with the Great

731
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: White Way.

732
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: Oh, that's right, I got the name wrong. I'm so sorry.

733
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, yeah, I saw that one and I

734
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 2: was like, I don't know, I read It'd be fun

735
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 2: if we both read that, Okay. I have a feeling

736
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 2: you're going to be like, you're still reading that two

737
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 2: years from now.

738
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: But well, let's put it this way. Joey gave me

739
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: a copy probably two years ago, and it sits untouched.

740
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: Okay, Shell, all right, do you give me a two

741
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: year head start and then you start and we'll finish

742
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 2: at the same time and talk about it.

743
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 1: I gotta put down this Mike Campbell book of Tom

744
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: Petty and the Heartbreakers, and the Rim one before that,

745
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: and the mud Honey one before that I'll read is

746
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: these rock books. I need to put them all away.

747
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: And by the way, those are all called The Scarlet Letter.

748
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: My story in Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.

749
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 2: Right, and also Chuck, I mean, if rock and Roll

750
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 2: rot your brain reading about rock and roll really does?

751
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: Should we mention one more point that teachers make or

752
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,879
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that a problem with study guides. Some people

753
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: are like, hey, these study guys just give you one

754
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: lens look through to view this thing. And what you

755
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: need to do is read the book and go to

756
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: a class and hear it from a teacher. But some

757
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: people say, yeah, but that teacher is just looking at

758
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: it through their lens. I disagree. As an English major,

759
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: in my classes, the teacher would present perhaps their analysis,

760
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: and then say this is what other people think, and

761
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 1: what do you think?

762
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 2: Right? And you have to have read the cliffs Notes

763
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 2: to say you think. What else you want to talk

764
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 2: about any of these parodies or spin offs or competitors?

765
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we can just mention kind of quickly.

766
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: Spark Notes became the biggest competitor in like nineteen ninety nine.

767
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: There's one called Schmoop found it in two thousand and

768
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: eight that became a pretty good competitor.

769
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 2: That's pretty good. I went and read some of their stuff.

770
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: It's much more loosely written, like what's up with YadA

771
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: YadA YadA. Oh really, what's up with that letter?

772
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: A interesting? I do want to mention this one spoof

773
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: at least Thug Notes.

774
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great.

775
00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: Did you watch any of these?

776
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: That's the one on Doctor Jekyl and mister Hyde.

777
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think give me the car letter Man.

778
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 2: I got it too. We both went.

779
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,399
Speaker 1: Down Thug Notes.

780
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 2: I was talking about the movie.

781
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: Oh right, right, right. It's a YouTube series from comedian

782
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: Greg Edwards. He plays a character, a PhD named Sparky Sweets,

783
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: who summarizes a commentary on one hundred different books. They're

784
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 1: generally about five minutes long, and it's a comedy thing,

785
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's thug Notes. He does African American vernacular

786
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: and breaks down these books in a fun way, in

787
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: a very quick way. But he's got three point one

788
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: four million subs, and if you watch one of these,

789
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,479
Speaker 1: like you did, you will soon learn like it's a joke,

790
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: but he's laying down some real truth on some of

791
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: these as well.

792
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like when you finish watching one of these

793
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 2: thug Notes, like you understand what that book was about,

794
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 2: like fully, Like he does a great job with it.

795
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's just this whole stick to it. That's

796
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:57,399
Speaker 2: pretty awesome too.

797
00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 1: Yeah. I watched a few of them, but the one

798
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: on the Scarlet Letter by George Orwell. At the end

799
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: in the analysis, he explains he talks about censorship and

800
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: book burning and stalinism and double talk and all that

801
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: stuff in a very fun way. And I can only

802
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 1: think that, like, there might be young students that identify

803
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: with with Greg Edwards and what he's doing, that it

804
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: might provide a little real insight and inspiration, I hope. So,

805
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: even though it's.

806
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: Just a joke, did you say that? Did you say

807
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 2: the name of his character on thug Notes?

808
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: I did?

809
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 2: I love it. I guess that's about it.

810
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 1: Huh, that's all I got on cliff Notes.

811
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 2: Okay, I think man. Hats off to us, Hats off

812
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 2: to Olivia, hats off to Mental Floss, Hats off to

813
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: Sparky Sweet's PhD. We made it through cliffs Notes.

814
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: Hats off to Nathaniel Hawthorne.

815
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and hester Print too. Yeah, let's see, since we

816
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: took our hat off to hester Print, of course, that

817
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 2: means it's time for listener mail.

818
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: Hey guys, this is about Broadway. My name's Reagan. I've

819
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: been a listener for ten years. My husband Paul, and

820
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: I love to listen to you guys while we cooked dinner,

821
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: and we listen to reruns on long car trips. I'm

822
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,359
Speaker 1: writing in Because Broadway the Broadway episode because I am

823
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: a theatrical costume designer and I wanted to offer some

824
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 1: more insight about previews that you guys were discussing. Previews

825
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: have a cool function where they are actually used by

826
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: the production team to keep changing, like Josh said, and

827
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 1: fine tuning a show based on audience feedback, especially on

828
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: a brand new show. New lines and music may even

829
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: be written and added during the process. Changes can also

830
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: include restaging and cutting or adding technical elements like costumes

831
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: for props. However, Chuck was right and that toward the

832
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 1: end of previews the show will be frozen by the director,

833
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: which means no further changes are allowed to be made,

834
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: and it's after that time that critics will be invited

835
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: to attend during previews after they're frozen before opening night.

836
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: Got it so that totally clears it up. Thanks for

837
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: doing such a great job covering Broadway. Really touched me

838
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: to hear about the theater world on my favorite podcast,

839
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: because I listen to you guys almost daily in the

840
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: costume shop. And that is from Reagan McKay, interim costume

841
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 1: shop manager at the Roundhouse Theater.

842
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: Wow, that's awesome. I think we talked about the Roundhouse Theater,

843
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 2: didn't we.

844
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 1: It sounds familiar.

845
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: I hope we did. Thank you very much, Reagan. We

846
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 2: love it when we hear from experts in the field

847
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 2: about an episode we talked about, especially when they say

848
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 2: we got it right. And if you want to be

849
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 2: like Reagan and send us an email where you're like, hey,

850
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 2: I know what I'm talking about, and you guys did

851
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 2: a good job. We love that kind of thing. You

852
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: can send it to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

853
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

854
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

855
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.