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Speaker 1: Hi There Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I
Speaker 1: am Joe, joined as always by and and of course
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a mystery. Yeah, okay, So
Speaker 1: this week we're going to talk about a little mass
Speaker 1: murder that happened about five years ago in France. This
Speaker 1: has been in the news actually quite a bit, so
Speaker 1: you may have heard of. It happened September in the
Speaker 1: French Alps, several miles south of Lake Annessee, which I'm
Speaker 1: probably mispronouncing. Oh yeah, now it's time for the the warning. Uh,
Speaker 1: this contains a lot of French words which I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be mispronounced. That's we did our best, but it's yeah,
Speaker 1: it's hard to make it stick, is wed? Yeah, yeah
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah. The listener discretion is advised. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's all. That's all. Yeah, I don't don't that's my
Speaker 1: French right there. Yeah, okay, back to Lake Annessey. So, um,
Speaker 1: Lake Annessey. Is this really beautiful lake. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you guys took a look at it on Google
Speaker 1: or like that really really beautiful place and in the
Speaker 1: Alps and about forty miles not not even forty miles,
Speaker 1: twenty miles south of Geneva, Switzerland, way over the east
Speaker 1: of France. Of course, the mystery I'm talking about, of course,
Speaker 1: is the Annecy shootings. Also knows the Chevaline killings, because
Speaker 1: that's the little village that it was kind of close to.
Speaker 1: Before you go any further, I want to give a
Speaker 1: hat tip to a few of our listeners who suggested
Speaker 1: this topic, actually Annie and some others. I know a
Speaker 1: lot of people have suggested this to us, but when
Speaker 1: I looked on the list, I only saw Anny's name
Speaker 1: on it, So all the rest of you, hey, thanks.
Speaker 1: So this is a popular one and I've been following
Speaker 1: the story for a while now, and it recently is
Speaker 1: popped up back in the news because they have a
Speaker 1: new suspect. I don't know if you guys noticed that
Speaker 1: or not, but it's I'm still looking to be like,
Speaker 1: they're not going to solve it anytime soon, I don't think,
Speaker 1: which is why we're confidently doing an episode on it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think so very excited for it to be solved
Speaker 1: a week before we released YEA, that wouldn't that be? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would be a great track record. Every week we
Speaker 1: go to put one out and they solve it. The week.
Speaker 1: You know what I was gonna say, genuinely, I really
Speaker 1: would though, because that would just mean, you know, so
Speaker 1: much less pain in this world for people. So that's true.
Speaker 1: It would be a good thing and just be more
Speaker 1: pain for us but less for other people. Okay whatever. Oh,
Speaker 1: let's talk about our protagonists in this story. They would
Speaker 1: be the al Hilly family who lived in Claygate, which
Speaker 1: is in England. It's west of Croydon, northwest of Epsom,
Speaker 1: so you know exactly where it is, right south of
Speaker 1: Squickenham and north of East Horsley, about fifty kilometers southwest
Speaker 1: of London. Yeah. The al Hilly family was Sad hal
Speaker 1: Hilly fifty years old born in Iraq that I think.
Speaker 1: I believe his family moved to England when he was
Speaker 1: about nine years old. I think he might have been
Speaker 1: slightly younger than that, but it was somewhere he was
Speaker 1: he was a young boy. Yeah, he was very young
Speaker 1: and along with his brother's aid and his dad. Kadim
Speaker 1: Sad is our first protagonist in Ikball forty seven. His wife,
Speaker 1: who was a dentist side by the way, it was
Speaker 1: an engineer. So Hala Alaf seventy four was was Ball's mother.
Speaker 1: On the b Sad's mother in law, and then their
Speaker 1: two daughters, Zeneb and Zena, who were seven and four respectively. Yes.
Speaker 1: Also president of our crime scene was Sylvan more Molier,
Speaker 1: forty five years old, a French guy, a little a
Speaker 1: little background here on the al hillis and and Molier.
Speaker 1: Sad was born in her acts I said, his family
Speaker 1: moved to England. His brothers Zaid, still lives in London. Sad,
Speaker 1: as I said, was an engineer who quote worked on
Speaker 1: satellite systems. It's a little vague exactly what he did,
Speaker 1: but apparently he worked for Seri Satellite Technology Ltd. And
Speaker 1: as employers said that his work did not involved classified stuff,
Speaker 1: so it's not like he was working on super secret spots.
Speaker 1: The satellite industry is like a lot of industries. It's
Speaker 1: pretty broad. It could be weather satellite, it could be
Speaker 1: the guy worked for a satellite TV company, and you know,
Speaker 1: I think he was a little more higher up than that,
Speaker 1: but I think that, yeah, yeah, so and then and
Speaker 1: the Ball. His wife was a dentist who I believe
Speaker 1: but I can't swear on this, was educated in Dubai
Speaker 1: and she'd been married before to an American and James
Speaker 1: Thompson from Mississippi. According to accounts that I've read, she
Speaker 1: married the guy just to get her green card. It
Speaker 1: was kind of a marriage of convenience. I don't think
Speaker 1: it was even consummated. Things didn't work out, unfortunately for
Speaker 1: in America, because her credentials didn't qualify her to work
Speaker 1: as an actual dentist, and she had to be a
Speaker 1: dental assistant, which she found kind of you know the meaning,
Speaker 1: I guess, or at least low paying. Yeah. It's like
Speaker 1: the doctor that you meet from another country who's driving
Speaker 1: cabs in this country because we don't recognize the all
Speaker 1: the schooling he did in his home country. It's pretty sad,
Speaker 1: kind of a waste really. As I said, things didn't
Speaker 1: work out eventually, I while moved back to Dubai later married.
Speaker 1: So did they meet in Dubai. I'm not sure exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a good question. Uh, and then we'll talk about
Speaker 1: the of course, the two met in England. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: might be. I remember reading about where they met, and
Speaker 1: I really feel like they met in England. But I
Speaker 1: could told me very well, be true, as that's that's
Speaker 1: one aspect of the story. I didn't actually research too heavily.
Speaker 1: I read it in passing and I thought okay, and
Speaker 1: then it's of course immediately escaped me. And this has
Speaker 1: actually been much covered in the press and a lot
Speaker 1: of contradictory accounts. So yeah, yeah, probably depends on how
Speaker 1: they want to frame the story. Yeah. And then also
Speaker 1: our French guy, Sylvan Mola, I'm probably mispronouncing that, but
Speaker 1: he worked at a company called Cesar, which refines and
Speaker 1: cast various exotic metals into billets and such for machining
Speaker 1: into nuclear reactor parts. U But he was a welder.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, Initially in the press though he was he
Speaker 1: was put it was he was supposed to be like
Speaker 1: a metallurgist or maybe a senior production manager, and eventually
Speaker 1: came out the because those are juicy positions to write about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well there juicy because maybe he had nuclear secrets that's
Speaker 1: why he got murdered, you know. But it turns out
Speaker 1: he was a welder, which, by the way, that's not
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily a low paying, low skilled that's high
Speaker 1: paying work, right, and highly skilled. But I knew a
Speaker 1: guy who used to go around the world and helped
Speaker 1: construct nuclear reactors all over the world. He made gobs
Speaker 1: of money, but it's not really classified unlikely that you
Speaker 1: would encounter something in the course of your work that
Speaker 1: would make you a high value target. He was a
Speaker 1: welder and he turned big wrenches, which is just a
Speaker 1: very similar to this guy. Yeah, yeah, So anyway, he
Speaker 1: did seem to have money though, because he was riding
Speaker 1: a five thousand euro bike, so yeah, he was yeah, bicycle,
Speaker 1: not motorcycle. So Molier had been married. He had two
Speaker 1: kids by his previous wife, but he had left her
Speaker 1: by the time of his death. He had a new
Speaker 1: girlfriend and they had just had a baby. Girlfriend's name
Speaker 1: was Claire Shutz, and I believe they were they've been
Speaker 1: together two years death, Yeah, about two years. Yeah, alright,
Speaker 1: so let's start our story. And as you can guess,
Speaker 1: there's gonna be some some killing here. Why we got
Speaker 1: a yeah, why we've got ourselves a mystery? So, uh,
Speaker 1: I start at the beginning here September twelve, two thousand
Speaker 1: and twelve. The al Hilly family, we were kind of
Speaker 1: road tripping through France. They had they had come across
Speaker 1: the channel to Calais, France, and then we're driving across
Speaker 1: the country. They had like a BMW station wagon with
Speaker 1: the big trailer behind it, and then never and so
Speaker 1: they were camping at the south shore of Lake Annessey.
Speaker 1: He said, his East France. Car camping, not really camping camping, Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course, I don't know. I mean, their trailer was
Speaker 1: not huge. So with five people in that trailer, maybe
Speaker 1: someone did pitch at tamp you still I think not
Speaker 1: that this matters at all, But I think even if
Speaker 1: you're in a tent that you just unpacked from your car,
Speaker 1: it's still car camping technically if you haven't hiked in,
Speaker 1: you know, you're one of those purest I forgot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: sorry everyone, that's that's true. Yeah, but some people do consider,
Speaker 1: you know, going out in a trailer to be camping.
Speaker 1: It's not. Well, it's car camping. I don't Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's called a camper dude off. Yeah, nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1: Whatever makes and whatever helps you access nature, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: go out and it's a great way to go out
Speaker 1: and see Europe or somewhat cheaper and with two young children,
Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense totally. So there, their
Speaker 1: trailer was parked to the campground at the south end
Speaker 1: of the lake. Lake. That's Lake Annessey, which is kind
Speaker 1: of a long, narrow north south lake and by the way,
Speaker 1: very pretty, as I've already said, but I'll say it again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: really nice. I really would like to go there. Uh.
Speaker 1: They got in their car that afternoon to drive around
Speaker 1: do a little sight seeing. And this is important they
Speaker 1: left the trailer at the campsite because I initially did
Speaker 1: not pick that up, and the story later on became confusing.
Speaker 1: When I presume they were still towing, that would have
Speaker 1: made things even worse for them. Not that things Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know how much worse they could have gotten actually,
Speaker 1: come to think of it. They said they drove south
Speaker 1: from the lake to the village of Dussard. When they
Speaker 1: talk about at least one picture, which is how we
Speaker 1: know they were there, they found at the time and
Speaker 1: date stamp on the photo when their in their camera
Speaker 1: police did That was three pm. And from there they
Speaker 1: continued south to the village of Sheveling and the main
Speaker 1: roads through the village. You can see this on on
Speaker 1: the area as it goes south through the village and
Speaker 1: at the south end of town it goes past the
Speaker 1: farm and a big barn sort of heads up into
Speaker 1: the hills and it's very narrow and it's it's it's
Speaker 1: in the cleft of two mountain. Yeah, it's in a
Speaker 1: little valley and there's a there's a stream running alongside
Speaker 1: and everything, and it actually goes back and forth across
Speaker 1: the stream, crosses a lot of bridges and stuff. Very beautiful, yeah,
Speaker 1: really nice and uh but it goes up for several
Speaker 1: kilometers into the hills before it dead ends. And as
Speaker 1: you say, it doesn't doesn't quite dead end, but it
Speaker 1: reaches a small parking area and past that point, motor
Speaker 1: vehicles are not allowed, so you would hike, get out
Speaker 1: and take a little walk a little bit. I and
Speaker 1: I originally I thought what was is it reached actually
Speaker 1: kind of a turnaround, an actual dead end, and then
Speaker 1: from there they were like trails that you can hike on.
Speaker 1: But I don't know if you guys looked at it
Speaker 1: on street view saying the coordinates and and actually the
Speaker 1: road continues, it does. He's just not supposed to drive
Speaker 1: down it anymore, I believe. Didn't they don't they like
Speaker 1: kept logs in front of it or something like that
Speaker 1: to keep drivers from going through. Uh not, No, not
Speaker 1: in the street view that I saw. Maybe they have
Speaker 1: sense sens Okay. I remember reading something about the fact
Speaker 1: that they were quote unquote trees in the way and
Speaker 1: they were like, yeah, we're not gonna do anything about
Speaker 1: that because we don't want you to drive there. Oh yeah, no,
Speaker 1: that was there was a big article written, I think
Speaker 1: it was in g Q one the guy wanted to
Speaker 1: drive up there. Yeah, and that's where that's why I
Speaker 1: got the impression that those trees were down at after
Speaker 1: that turnaround. No, actually they were well before that. There
Speaker 1: was there was there were some trees down. And then
Speaker 1: then the guy goes back to town and some talks
Speaker 1: to some girl in the cafe and she says, yeah,
Speaker 1: nobody really goes up there, so you know, so we're
Speaker 1: not that motivated. But anyway, they're up that road along
Speaker 1: about three fift British tourist on a bicycle was heading
Speaker 1: up that same road, heading south out of Chevlin. His
Speaker 1: name was Brett Martin, former former pilot with the Royal
Speaker 1: Air Force. Uh and yeah, yeah British. Yeah. He had
Speaker 1: a like a summer vacation home nearby and he was
Speaker 1: past also going south by a French cyclist named Silvan Molier,
Speaker 1: who will you recognize? I mentioned it before and he
Speaker 1: was on his very expensive racing bike as I mentioned.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, when you said it earlier, I thought you
Speaker 1: said five thousand year old and I was like, that
Speaker 1: sounds wrong, but maybe I'm just going to roll with it.
Speaker 1: Like euro was it cost five thousand euros? Very expensive?
Speaker 1: God would that would be totally cool, out of place,
Speaker 1: artific mystery for us. I was just gonnaycle. It's probably
Speaker 1: my fault. It's probably my core annuciation. But yeah, his
Speaker 1: bike costs. His bicycle costs five thousand euros according to
Speaker 1: one story that I read, which is kind of a
Speaker 1: shame for for a mala, because if he had a
Speaker 1: heavier bike like my Trek seventy three hundred, which is
Speaker 1: a hybrid, he probably would have gotten up to the
Speaker 1: end of the road later and that might have worked
Speaker 1: out a little differently for him. That's called foreshadow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so we need one of these, don't don't done? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was just wondering why he was doing brand placements
Speaker 1: so much. He apparently has a sponsorship. He's not telling you.
Speaker 1: Apparently make a little money on the side. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just how he's paying off the bike. You know that
Speaker 1: the Europeans are actually paying me to promote the euro
Speaker 1: which is not doing so well these days. Okay, but
Speaker 1: back to our story. The al Hilly family came along
Speaker 1: in their BMW station wagon. Shortly after that, they passed
Speaker 1: Brett and Martin going up the hill. It's not actually
Speaker 1: totally clear who got to the end of the road first,
Speaker 1: if it was Malier or the al Hillies, but pretty
Speaker 1: close to the same time. And this was around three
Speaker 1: thirty pm. Uh And, as I said before, there's what
Speaker 1: they call it lay by, also a white spot essentially,
Speaker 1: and yeah, that's what it is. It's just a wide
Speaker 1: gravel spot where you can pull off and park your car.
Speaker 1: Uh So I'd pulled his car into that white spot,
Speaker 1: nose into the bank ninety degrees to the road, which
Speaker 1: violates my number one rule about parking and hicky spots,
Speaker 1: which as you turned the car around right so you
Speaker 1: can make a quick getaway. He didn't do that. But
Speaker 1: actually it's on StreetView it looks like a really pleasant
Speaker 1: little spot. So you know, it's not the kind of
Speaker 1: spot you'd really worry about getting fire terror arrival. Now,
Speaker 1: it's not that it doesn't look like that kind of place, really,
Speaker 1: So he parks side and Zena Zenab his seven year
Speaker 1: old daughter, get out of the car, and the sequence
Speaker 1: of events is a little uncertain. After this, it appears
Speaker 1: that they were close to Mala, so you know, it
Speaker 1: might be that they were just saying hi, nice day
Speaker 1: something like that to him. Uh and uh. And then
Speaker 1: apparently a crazy gunman with the Lugar Lugar pistol pops
Speaker 1: into the scene and opens fire. It looks like zanneb
Speaker 1: and Molier were shot first, Yeah, and cyclists and the
Speaker 1: cyclist and the French cyclist and and then the crime
Speaker 1: scene was reconstructed using all kinds of things like shell
Speaker 1: case things and the blood on people's soles of their
Speaker 1: feet and various things. So they sort of established because
Speaker 1: it turns it turns into kind of a messy scene. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there were quite a few shots fired, a lot of Yeah,
Speaker 1: but even the police are not acent certain that they
Speaker 1: have the actual sequence down. But are the best guests
Speaker 1: the best guess. The cyclist and the daughter gets shot, yeah, Maia,
Speaker 1: once dad went down. I'm not sure about Zanne. She
Speaker 1: got shot in the shoulder. Uh. And then so I
Speaker 1: grabbed her, dragged her towards the car. And this is
Speaker 1: again I've read three different versions of this. One was
Speaker 1: he just left her and ran for the car. Another
Speaker 1: one is he grabbed her and drags her back to
Speaker 1: the car and then and I think you found one
Speaker 1: scene that said he actually actually got her into the car. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as he got as side got into the driver's seat,
Speaker 1: he was shot in the lower back and he starts
Speaker 1: the car, slams it reverse, cracks the wheel the left
Speaker 1: and floors it. And you can see in the air
Speaker 1: there's some helicopter shots of the spot. You can see
Speaker 1: that the car did a nice tight little semi circle
Speaker 1: one eight until it slams into the bank. The rear
Speaker 1: end of the slams into the bank, and that's where
Speaker 1: it stayed. And I'm not sure if it got stuck.
Speaker 1: According to one account that I read, when Brett Martin
Speaker 1: got to the scene, he said it was still in
Speaker 1: reverse and the wheels were still turning it. Well, I
Speaker 1: sent you that image. Yeah, I found it. I saw
Speaker 1: the image to where it is definitely dug in. It
Speaker 1: is totally dug in, and you can tell that there's
Speaker 1: all the dirt has been flung away from the tire.
Speaker 1: It looks as if it's just it would have been
Speaker 1: free spinning at that point. Yeah. I mean he might
Speaker 1: have just sat there because he might have been passed
Speaker 1: out from shock or blood loss or just being It
Speaker 1: really doesn't matter if if you slam the ass end
Speaker 1: of your vehicle into an embankment enough to pick the
Speaker 1: tires up a little bit, and the groundunderneath is soft
Speaker 1: and you were pounding on the accelerator, you're gonna quickly
Speaker 1: dig a hole. And you could be completely conscious, and
Speaker 1: you're still going to be unable to move because you
Speaker 1: got no traction because it's two wheel dry. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: if the wheels were still spinning one um, yes his
Speaker 1: name had shown up, that would be you know, if
Speaker 1: somebody passed out, if it's in gear at that point,
Speaker 1: they're still going to be spinning. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's what I heard. But then again I've heard I've
Speaker 1: also heard that it was in neutral and he that
Speaker 1: semicircle made the car also run over. Yeah, he ran over,
Speaker 1: it ran over the French cycle was ye. Poor guy.
Speaker 1: He was having a rough day. Like I said, dude,
Speaker 1: next time trek. Alright, So our gunman steps to the
Speaker 1: front of the car and he shot side again. Side
Speaker 1: was shot four times, twice to the head, and then
Speaker 1: the ball in Sula the mother in law were also
Speaker 1: shot several times. Then it appears that our perpetrator walked
Speaker 1: over to Molier and shot him again. So in all,
Speaker 1: SidD I Ball, Shila and Molier were shot four, four,
Speaker 1: three and five times respectively. You in the head each person,
Speaker 1: each one got two in the head, yeah, which is yeah,
Speaker 1: well it's it's a that's prompted some sterizing about it
Speaker 1: being a professional yet. Yeah. And Zanna of course was
Speaker 1: shot once in the shoulder. She wasn't quite dead, so
Speaker 1: there was something some trauma to her head, wasn't there. Yea.
Speaker 1: He smashed her over the head at least once with
Speaker 1: the butt of his gun pretty hard apparently, and we
Speaker 1: broke the he broke the grip of the grip of yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so that requires a pretty severe blow. Well, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: intriguing because if you look at a luger, and this
Speaker 1: was a luger, they you know, they've established that apparently
Speaker 1: on the piece of the grip that was broke off,
Speaker 1: look at the luger. It's actually the grip is kind
Speaker 1: of up a little bit from the botto, from the butt,
Speaker 1: the butt of it, so not actually when hitting somebody,
Speaker 1: not even hitting the grip on anything anyway, Well, he
Speaker 1: could have it could have already been sort of aged
Speaker 1: and cracked and could pistol whip there. Yeah, just yeah,
Speaker 1: which is really traumatizing and horrible, but well it's not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she had a traumatizing enough time without getting bashed in
Speaker 1: the head. Yeah, well with yeah, without any of that.
Speaker 1: But wasn't there also another child? There was another child? Yeah,
Speaker 1: But anyway, the last thing about the grip sell off.
Speaker 1: Of course the police did pick those up later, and
Speaker 1: that's not allowed them to identify the gun as a
Speaker 1: Swiss made P zero six thirty two caliber luger. As
Speaker 1: I'm sure you're all familiar with what a luger is.
Speaker 1: They're color classic. Yeah, you see him in all the
Speaker 1: World War two movies. Yeah, he's the classic handgun of
Speaker 1: the German army. Yeah. And they're they're actually really cool.
Speaker 1: They're they're weird, but the cool. They're as iconic as
Speaker 1: the PP seven, the p P seven isn't that what
Speaker 1: James Bond uses? How much I know about the guns?
Speaker 1: Gun Nut for Oh no, she just made that up.
Speaker 1: I was closed. Come on, we happen to know there
Speaker 1: actually is a piece seven pistol, that's what. It doesn't matter. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. But you were asking if there was
Speaker 1: another kid. Yeah, at first we forgot about zena aged four,
Speaker 1: who was in the back seat with her mother. And uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if her mom shoved her
Speaker 1: behind her legs or she just took it, took the
Speaker 1: initiative and did it herself. But she hid behind her
Speaker 1: mother's legs. Her mom was wearing a long skirt, so
Speaker 1: she hid there behind her mother and was not seen
Speaker 1: by the gunman. And she stayed there for a long time.
Speaker 1: The police I showed up and they were actually going
Speaker 1: over the scene and and cataloging it and marking it
Speaker 1: all out and everything, And it was like eight hours
Speaker 1: before they finally got around to opening up the car
Speaker 1: to to look at the dead bodies inside. It was
Speaker 1: I had read that it wasn't until some forensic person
Speaker 1: was going to examine the body that suddenly they realized
Speaker 1: something else was going So I have I have questions
Speaker 1: about that eight hour number. And this is a tangent
Speaker 1: and I'll make it quick. But the way it was written,
Speaker 1: I initially presumed, I think, like all of us did,
Speaker 1: that it was eight hours from the time the cops
Speaker 1: are rived. But I think it's from eight hours from
Speaker 1: the time that incident happened. I think it's about half
Speaker 1: an hour after the cops arrived. Okay, not not just kidding.
Speaker 1: The cops got there very fast, but you know, it's
Speaker 1: still probably at the scene within an hour or two
Speaker 1: of it. A guy at a bicycle has to pedal
Speaker 1: back to town to report it. Oh yeah, probably it
Speaker 1: was downhill, so it should have been fairly quick. That
Speaker 1: was a pretty crappy road haul on your bicycle. But
Speaker 1: the point is it would have taken a while for
Speaker 1: the cops to get there, so in their defense a
Speaker 1: little bit, it wasn't as if they were instantly appearing.
Speaker 1: And and again also in their defense, you would assume
Speaker 1: that if anybody were alive, and when they hurt sirens,
Speaker 1: they would declare themselves. Yeah, I mean no, they probably
Speaker 1: probably don't take into account that there's a four year old. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but they probably they want to don't want to trample
Speaker 1: all over the scene, so they send one guy over
Speaker 1: to look in the windows and make sure everybody's dead,
Speaker 1: and you know, he goes and looks, Yeah, they all
Speaker 1: look dead to me, and then he backs out and
Speaker 1: they processed the whole crime scene. That probably discouraged her
Speaker 1: from revealing herself. She spoke English, she lived in Britain,
Speaker 1: and they were all talking in French, so she had
Speaker 1: no way to know that they were police officers talking
Speaker 1: about the scene. All she knows is probably some guy
Speaker 1: in yelling French came out of the woods. I know
Speaker 1: there's more French people, are more French voices. I'm not moving. Yes,
Speaker 1: he probably still hates French people. Yeah the French food
Speaker 1: that you're right, But I just thinking now, And obviously
Speaker 1: I'm very sympathetic to this poor little girl like hiding
Speaker 1: and terror for all those hours. But also it's it's
Speaker 1: kind of amazing to think of this lab tech or
Speaker 1: whoever it was it opens a card or thinking that
Speaker 1: he or she is going to be looking at a
Speaker 1: dead body and all of a sudden it moves. That
Speaker 1: must have given him a start. Huh. Yeah. But but anyway,
Speaker 1: enough of that, So okay, so so guns go blazing?
Speaker 1: How many? How many rounds? Because that's why. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, as far as I could tell, the best
Speaker 1: guests here is twenty one rounds. I've read in other
Speaker 1: places twenty five rounds. But I think it was a lot.
Speaker 1: That's a lot. Uh. Yeah, because the luger has an
Speaker 1: eight round magazine. Uh. And so the killer must have
Speaker 1: had two extra magazines because twenty one rounds, right, And
Speaker 1: maybe he had say seven rounds in each bagh, or
Speaker 1: it might be out of eight rounds in each bag
Speaker 1: and he just didn't shoot him all. He didn't shoot
Speaker 1: I didn't shoot Zana for some reason. We don't know
Speaker 1: the reason why. Or maybe he was just out of
Speaker 1: AMMO and he smashed her over the head and left.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's maybe all of his mags weren't full. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe he puts seven rounds in each bag, or maybe
Speaker 1: he put eight eight rounds and had shot a couple
Speaker 1: of bullets already doing something else nefarious. Yeah, I had.
Speaker 1: I'd kind of come to the same conclusion, is what
Speaker 1: Joe was just saying. Is it putting seven in the eight?
Speaker 1: Because if you've ever tried to load up, it's really stiff,
Speaker 1: like that last one. Yeah, and sometimes it's just not
Speaker 1: worth it. Yeah, it's like, screw it, it's seven of eight.
Speaker 1: It's it's enough. I know how many I have, which
Speaker 1: would make sense with the one rounds having been expelled. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then for what he's planning on doing, I assume
Speaker 1: he went out of the house that day intending to
Speaker 1: murder somebody with his luger. You know, it's like packing
Speaker 1: a lot of reason. A luger is not alger and
Speaker 1: two extra mags. It's not something you carry around every
Speaker 1: day all day for self defense because it's a fairly big,
Speaker 1: all steel heavy gun. You know, it is hunting gun, No,
Speaker 1: but it's it's just not it's a really distressing form
Speaker 1: of hunting. Yeah, yeah, that kind of hunt thing. But
Speaker 1: it's not real concealable either. It's just not your everyday
Speaker 1: carry kind of gun. Really. So I don't know, but
Speaker 1: I think it was twenty one rounds and of that,
Speaker 1: seventeen rounds actually hit their target, which is pretty good,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, considering the stressful kind of situation.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm assuming this guy was not cold as eyes.
Speaker 1: He probably missed. You know, probably a lot of people
Speaker 1: when they get into shootouts, they get even an even police,
Speaker 1: they stressed so much they missed entirely. There have been
Speaker 1: the polices have I've heard stories of police having shootouts
Speaker 1: with perps at close range. He's has a gun and
Speaker 1: everybody misses everybody. I mean they empty their guns and
Speaker 1: nobody's hit anybody. It's uh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, police
Speaker 1: squad or yeah, naked gun, naked gun. Yeah, police squad.
Speaker 1: I love that. What a great name. But anyway, so
Speaker 1: this guy that's not bad. Seventeen one rounds uh and
Speaker 1: again two headshots per person except for xandive and but
Speaker 1: but it's still but still I'm not really sure why
Speaker 1: he didn't shoot her unless he was out of AMMO
Speaker 1: because she was a witness. And way very shortly after this,
Speaker 1: around three p m. Brett Martin, remember him, the guy
Speaker 1: on the bike, Brett, the heavy Yeah, the heavier bike.
Speaker 1: He rise on his bicycle. Uh, and he must have
Speaker 1: just missed all the action. He was a t probably yeah,
Speaker 1: on a truck something, I'm sure, but yeah, Lucky for
Speaker 1: him he got there a little later and everybody else
Speaker 1: apparently the purp was probably out of AMMO anyway, but
Speaker 1: only one person was seen by him exiting the scene,
Speaker 1: which is a guy on a motorcycle who passed him
Speaker 1: going downhill on the same road when he was on
Speaker 1: his way up. So that guy, of course was you know,
Speaker 1: kind of kind of suspected to be perhaps the purp
Speaker 1: uh he apparently been seeing on the road south of
Speaker 1: the murder scene that would be on the other side
Speaker 1: of the murder scene by some four service workers and
Speaker 1: who told him I had to leave? Was that guy
Speaker 1: the gunman? Well, um, they the police released a composite
Speaker 1: sketch of him. He he had a goatee which is
Speaker 1: kind of sinister, kind of heavy eyebrows, very sinister. But
Speaker 1: in March he was identified. I turned out he was
Speaker 1: a businessman from Leone who had been in the area
Speaker 1: to paragline and so they haven't released his name. Apparently
Speaker 1: had no connection to Mulgay or to the al Hilly family,
Speaker 1: has no criminal record, and was a respectable businessman, and
Speaker 1: so the police took no further action on him. Although
Speaker 1: he knows maybe he was our a killer, probably not,
Speaker 1: probably not. He just happened to be in the area,
Speaker 1: but nobody else was seen leaving. So this is what's interesting.
Speaker 1: And you guys looked at again on the street view
Speaker 1: on the street view, Uh if he'd been in a
Speaker 1: car parked right there. I mean, obviously Bret Martin would
Speaker 1: have seen him leaving the parking area and driving the
Speaker 1: other direction right um, and so I'm thinking, well, if
Speaker 1: he parked that road right there, actually it goes past
Speaker 1: the sign us is no admittance, and then it takes
Speaker 1: a sharp harapine turn to the left and goes back
Speaker 1: up past itself a little further uphill. So he could
Speaker 1: have shot everybody and then and then exited through the
Speaker 1: woods at the back of that turnaround there and gone
Speaker 1: about a hundred feet up to the road, same road
Speaker 1: where he parked his motorcycle, bicycle, car or whatever and
Speaker 1: escaped that way. Speculation on my part, I don't know.
Speaker 1: But anyway, Red Martin shows up, and interestingly, this is
Speaker 1: one of the things that police had trouble believing about him,
Speaker 1: is that is that he was just a few hundred
Speaker 1: meters down the road peddling out his bike and he
Speaker 1: somehow didn't hear twenty one shots being fired. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a little They were a little iffy on
Speaker 1: that whole thing. And then apparently they did some some
Speaker 1: sonic testing and it turns out the river is apparently
Speaker 1: very noisy. Yeah, they're a little valley there, tight little
Speaker 1: valley with this river making a lot of noise, and
Speaker 1: apparently the mountains bounce reflects sound back and forth and stuff.
Speaker 1: So they did some sound testing and it turns out, well,
Speaker 1: he married he very well. Maybe he didn't hear the
Speaker 1: gun shots, yeah, yeah, yeah. Was he kind of near
Speaker 1: some he was on a bridge or something like that.
Speaker 1: Maybe even Yeah, it says the road, the road is
Speaker 1: constantly crossing over the river, back and forth, and all
Speaker 1: things considered, this this caliber of lugar isn't an exceptionally
Speaker 1: loud round, is compared to you know, like a forty
Speaker 1: five or something, which is super loud, that's true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not a forty four Mega or anything like that.
Speaker 1: It's a Yeah, thirty two is considered. It's very popular
Speaker 1: around in Europe here and Americans considered kind of anemic,
Speaker 1: a lightweight round, which is why it makes sense that
Speaker 1: you wouldn't hear it with a munch background noise. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: uh yeah. So anyway, Brett gets there, um and he
Speaker 1: uh he surveys the scene. Uh and and and of
Speaker 1: course Zanab apparently was out of the car staggering around
Speaker 1: holding her head. Everybody else, of course, was in the
Speaker 1: car dead, uh, And so he helped her out, and
Speaker 1: then I think found some local hikers or something or
Speaker 1: somebody on a bike or something and asked them to
Speaker 1: go for help, and they did. Next thing, you know,
Speaker 1: the cops I'll show up. Oh and here, by the way,
Speaker 1: if you want to see this crime scene, here are
Speaker 1: the coordinates. Are you ready? Write this down? Dot seven
Speaker 1: to eight eight three one and six point to two
Speaker 1: four six four nine, and you can see the very
Speaker 1: spot where it happened. So much easier than the U
Speaker 1: r L. Yeah, way easier. Yeah, but it is actually
Speaker 1: kind of informed to take a look at the spot. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So after matth there were two survivors. Of course, the
Speaker 1: two daughters, Santa Been Sena did survive. Zane did recover.
Speaker 1: Apparently she's has some memory issues, not not total of
Speaker 1: memory lost from that time. We're not completely understandable and
Speaker 1: a bit of a blessing. Yeah, probably not surprising at all,
Speaker 1: but apparently from the trauma and from the physical trauma.
Speaker 1: Apparently the girls have been adopted by an anton and
Speaker 1: uncle and they're doing all right, which is good. Apparently
Speaker 1: I think they've been given new identities. Probably good too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there was one other weird side note, which is
Speaker 1: that I said iball Asad's wife had been buried before
Speaker 1: right to James Thompson back in the US. On the
Speaker 1: day that she died, Jim Thompson died of a heart
Speaker 1: attack in his car. That's so weird, same day, I know,
Speaker 1: it isn't that weird? Um? Yeah? Yeah. The French police,
Speaker 1: actually I heard, tried to get his body exxumed because
Speaker 1: they wanted to test to see if he'd been poisoned
Speaker 1: or something. Apparently the family would not agree to it,
Speaker 1: and so it hasn't happened yet. You know, it's it's
Speaker 1: kind of, I guess, something worth checking out. I suppose
Speaker 1: it's kind of a wild long ship. It's a huge
Speaker 1: log shot, but it's also a huge coincidence. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: it's massive. Yeah, I mean yeah, But then again, when
Speaker 1: you look at this whole thing, maybe they both signed
Speaker 1: a contract with the Devil at the same time and
Speaker 1: the rest of them paid the price for it. That
Speaker 1: could be. That makes sense. Been watching Supernatural again, so
Speaker 1: I would explain that. Okay, yeah, I sort of let
Speaker 1: let that show drop. Maybe I should get back to that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've been watching Narcos on Netflix. It's actually pretty good. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Get where am I here? Back to back to the Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: back to the axe. On the other hand, he was overweight,
Speaker 1: he had high blood pressure, he smoked cigars, so I'm
Speaker 1: probably not that remote yeah yeah, but still on the
Speaker 1: same day, that's a little weird. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: So there are a lot of theories. Obviously, the European
Speaker 1: press want nuts over this, and the internet has gone
Speaker 1: nuts over too, and the police they put out a
Speaker 1: few interesting theories. Some of the theories assassination by the CIA,
Speaker 1: the Massad, sodom, who's saining loyalists and maybe the KGB
Speaker 1: or FSB, whatever they're calling themselves these days, perhaps a
Speaker 1: jealous lover, perhaps murder over an a state dispute um.
Speaker 1: But police have admitted they actually don't have any idea. Really, yeah,
Speaker 1: they really don't. They don't know who the target of
Speaker 1: the killing was and who was collateral damage, and for
Speaker 1: all they know it it really was just a random
Speaker 1: thrill kill. They just aren't. They just really don't know.
Speaker 1: So humber Damn, who murdered who murdered the al Hils,
Speaker 1: who murdered Sylvan Moulier and why did they do it? Well,
Speaker 1: let's talk about there is the first let's take a break,
Speaker 1: so we'll lamit. Radio Workshop. The award winning Will Lament
Speaker 1: Radio Workshop returns for the nineteenth annual UFO Festival in McMinnville, Oregon.
Speaker 1: Two live radio shows at the Hotel Oregon in Maddie's
Speaker 1: Room at three p m. Saturday, the nineteenth Isaac Asimov's
Speaker 1: Pebble in the Sky and Craig Kenworthy's parf The Extra
Speaker 1: Dimensional Assassin. Tales of future worlds with a modern edge.
Speaker 1: You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll wonder when the mothership arrives.
Speaker 1: Free admission with food and beverages available, own ages, live
Speaker 1: radio loos I mcminimans nineteenth annually USO Festival. Don't miss it,
Speaker 1: and we're back. Okay, first theory, alright, So our first theory.
Speaker 1: It was a hit on side al Hilly by Saddam
Speaker 1: Hussein loyalists. Um, and here's here's the basic outline of
Speaker 1: this theory. Uh, they did have the air marks of
Speaker 1: a professional head. Of course, as I said, the two
Speaker 1: headshots per victim, right, it's guaranteeing that they don't survive
Speaker 1: reasonably good marksmanship, although it was a bit sloppy, I
Speaker 1: gotta say, leaving the daughter alive. One theory that the
Speaker 1: papers came up with is that Sid's father, cadem Al Hilly,
Speaker 1: was smuggling large quantities of cash out of Iraq. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that if this was post Saddam or you know,
Speaker 1: because as you know, he was captured and executed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I believe it had to been pre yeah, pre uh
Speaker 1: pre Dom's death. Yeah yeah. And so the idea here
Speaker 1: is that he's smuggling all this cash and wealth out
Speaker 1: of Iraqs stashing and Swiss banks. Uh. And then apparently
Speaker 1: that this paper that posted this story, why did I say, post,
Speaker 1: I'm so internet he here problished this story. Uh got
Speaker 1: that they claimed to have gotten this information from German intelligence.
Speaker 1: I'm a little skeptical there. But anyway, the Hills were
Speaker 1: actually just a hop skip jump away from Geneva, Switzerland,
Speaker 1: as I just said, where all that Iraqi money was stashed.
Speaker 1: And it turns out Swiss authorities had confirmed that he
Speaker 1: did indeed make a stop at a bank in Geneva
Speaker 1: a few days before the killings. Yeah, it's almost like
Speaker 1: he was on a large trip with his family and
Speaker 1: needed some Yeah, and well, well there was there was
Speaker 1: at least I don't know how many accounts he might
Speaker 1: have had, but I know his father is deceased, father Kadeem,
Speaker 1: who had died the year before, had left as part
Speaker 1: of the state about eight hundred euros excee the eight
Speaker 1: hundred thousand euros. I read eight hundred euros and I thought,
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a very big amount of
Speaker 1: money to fight over, but okay, no, no, eight hundred thousand,
Speaker 1: maybe that's a little bit better. But yeah, that's definitely
Speaker 1: But he left that in the Swiss bank account. The
Speaker 1: amount of just stopped in to check on that. I
Speaker 1: think he was in a little bit of his dispute
Speaker 1: with his brother, so maybe he just wanted to make
Speaker 1: sure it hadn't been hoovered out. Yeah. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know how Swiss banks work. I don't know if they're
Speaker 1: like every other bank where they have a web page
Speaker 1: you can just log in and check your balance, or
Speaker 1: do you have to go there in person like you're
Speaker 1: Matt Damon, you know, and present them with a little
Speaker 1: secret decoder ring and yeah, and then the bank manager
Speaker 1: has to come down and pull the key out of
Speaker 1: a secret pocket and you have to like just stand
Speaker 1: simultaneously do the lock. I think that's how it is.
Speaker 1: Is that how it is? Okay, So that's and then
Speaker 1: you know the whole Geneva Well know is that what
Speaker 1: was that Dan Brown book? Oh yeah, yeah, I was
Speaker 1: like that, sorry, the Da Vinci code where you know,
Speaker 1: have to run it down a conveyor belt. Yeah, all
Speaker 1: of all of these tropes are correct. Bank account Hollywood always,
Speaker 1: you know, fastidiously researched all their stuff. But so, but
Speaker 1: but of course if I did make a little a
Speaker 1: little stop over Geneva and grab a bunch of illicit
Speaker 1: Iraqi cash, that's kind of short notice to get an
Speaker 1: assassin in place to murder him, you know, on a
Speaker 1: mountain road. Well, there's automated alerts, automated alerts on my accounts.
Speaker 1: It could be they had sleeper agents in place all
Speaker 1: over Europe. It could It could also be that they
Speaker 1: suspected going to and then and so they had somebody
Speaker 1: tailing him already. Yeah, or maybe he had actually been
Speaker 1: doing it already. I have serious reservations about that. But
Speaker 1: we'll get to this. Yeah, yeah, this is a bad theory.
Speaker 1: It's it's not that yeah, yeah, so okay, And so
Speaker 1: imagining as common sense kind of dictates that there had
Speaker 1: to be a little preparation for this. You know, it
Speaker 1: didn't just they didn't just decide in the basis of
Speaker 1: twenty hours notice to get a hitman out there to
Speaker 1: kill him. But if it was a long time coming
Speaker 1: then uh and and the police fresh police originally believed
Speaker 1: that the origin of it was not in France. He
Speaker 1: didn't want to believe it was. It was a French
Speaker 1: person who did this. You would think that they would
Speaker 1: have assassinated him back in England. Would have been a
Speaker 1: lot simpler rather than tracking him his family all over
Speaker 1: France and killing them all of them. Maybe just shoot
Speaker 1: him when he's coming out of his office or something
Speaker 1: like that. Yes, but I will say that uh family
Speaker 1: camping trip in this kind of not really very well
Speaker 1: traveled area, it would maybe be better with the without
Speaker 1: the bad luck of having the two bikers there, that
Speaker 1: it could feasibly be days before the bodies were found
Speaker 1: if they if they were camping, indeed, they wouldn't be
Speaker 1: expected to be checking in. Most of the family was there,
Speaker 1: so you know, way, it kind of makes sense. It's
Speaker 1: not it's not great, but they're being reported missing. Would
Speaker 1: probably be greatly delayed by that, it would, and then
Speaker 1: finding the bodies, and then you know, probably the daughter
Speaker 1: would have actually died because she would have stayed there indefinitely.
Speaker 1: Probably know, the one that got the older ones, she
Speaker 1: probably would have Probably she would have staggered down the road.
Speaker 1: She might have made her maybe not. It just quite
Speaker 1: a bit. I agree, it's you know, but it is.
Speaker 1: It does seem to make a little more sense if
Speaker 1: you're worried about the discovery of them. Yeah, although yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know how ill traveled that roaded. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you go on street View, if you go from
Speaker 1: Chevaline all the way up to the murder scene, you
Speaker 1: pass a bicyclist on the road the Google car does.
Speaker 1: And then when you get to the lay by, as
Speaker 1: they call it another the podcast, they call it the
Speaker 1: lay about. No no no, I wanted to just say, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I have a lay about layby. Okay, but so but
Speaker 1: if you on again on the same street the same day,
Speaker 1: there were two cars parked in that spot, so you know,
Speaker 1: it's it seems to me like it's popular enough somebody
Speaker 1: would notice his BMW with a bunch of bloody corpses
Speaker 1: in it. Probably, yeah, although still it is a little
Speaker 1: bit out of the way. I mean, it's not heavily trafficed,
Speaker 1: it's it's probably is a decent place. You can just
Speaker 1: look up and down the road see if somebody coming. Okay,
Speaker 1: good kill kill kill, you know. But but again, like
Speaker 1: I said, besides that they did, they did check out
Speaker 1: his house. They didn't find anything there, no evidence of
Speaker 1: sketchy behavior, rocky cash connection, anything like that. What they
Speaker 1: did find is that he had recently changed his locks,
Speaker 1: which the papers made something out of. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: what you can make out of that really, but and
Speaker 1: then they also found a taser, which is illegal in Britain.
Speaker 1: I think you can make something out of change manually
Speaker 1: changed locks. No, Okay, this might just be because of
Speaker 1: the amount of reporting, but I thought that I read
Speaker 1: that taser in the freshly changed locks were something the
Speaker 1: police were all excited about when they got to the
Speaker 1: brother and not so hot and well, you mean when
Speaker 1: they got to the brothers and they found it at
Speaker 1: the brother's place. Yeah, I thought about I thought they
Speaker 1: found it out side they did. Well. No, See, that's
Speaker 1: the thing is that I remember them talking about the
Speaker 1: fact that in one of the articles he was saying
Speaker 1: that when they went and checked out his brother, they
Speaker 1: found it weird that they had gone there, and then
Speaker 1: he had again, I think this is just confusing report
Speaker 1: a lot of this. I think like they searched Cadem's house.
Speaker 1: That's the father. They searched his house looking for clues, right,
Speaker 1: and that was the one where but they arrested his
Speaker 1: brother and hauled him in a couple of different times.
Speaker 1: That's that's where the convers right. But the change locks
Speaker 1: and the taser come up in that conversation as well,
Speaker 1: which is why I was saying I was confusing. Now,
Speaker 1: But the search of Cadem's house was the one where
Speaker 1: they thought they found something sketchy that they thought might
Speaker 1: be a bomb, so they BacT way. Yeah, well I've
Speaker 1: seen that reported as Cadem's house and also as Sod's house,
Speaker 1: and also as Zaid's apartment. So I seen the reports
Speaker 1: all three. It was Cadim's house that had the reporting on.
Speaker 1: This is just her No, it isn't. It isn't great. Um,
Speaker 1: it's confusing, and it makes our job harder to cut
Speaker 1: it out, guys, you know, really, come on. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: the police, meanwhile, they were checking out this theory that
Speaker 1: it hit Matt had perhaps followed them over from Britain.
Speaker 1: So they found they found basically every security camera between Calais,
Speaker 1: France and Lake Annison, which is probably quite a few.
Speaker 1: We're talking, we're talking traffic cams and just you know
Speaker 1: what rest areas and at gas stations or whatever. They
Speaker 1: apparently they tracked them all down once you all mean
Speaker 1: thousands of thousands of photos and found the photos of
Speaker 1: the al Hilly car with the trailer traveling across rants
Speaker 1: and they checked neighboring photos to see if there were
Speaker 1: any cars that showed up more than once that we're
Speaker 1: tailing them. So they went through a lot of photographs
Speaker 1: here and by the way, there's been some complaced by
Speaker 1: the family, the al Hilly family of the police have
Speaker 1: really done nothing and all that stuff like they've done
Speaker 1: a lot. They've done quite a bit, they actually really have.
Speaker 1: And but so they want to do all these photos
Speaker 1: and they finally decided no, they were not tailed from
Speaker 1: England because they never found a single car twice following them.
Speaker 1: And also the other thing about it that doesn't really
Speaker 1: make sense. It's apparently Zanna recovered enough of her memory
Speaker 1: of that day the police asked her exactly, you know,
Speaker 1: how they how they came to be up there, and
Speaker 1: what she told them is that they were hanging out
Speaker 1: at the campground. And so I said to her, well,
Speaker 1: what do you want to do? Would you like to
Speaker 1: go shopping or do you want to go out into
Speaker 1: the woods? And Zana said, let's go to the woods.
Speaker 1: I'm not poor kid. Can you imagine that being one
Speaker 1: of the only things you remember from a day like that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, poor kid, that's just sad. But and so that.
Speaker 1: So this wasn't even a planned thing, which means it's
Speaker 1: hard to premeditate putting a guy, putting a guy off
Speaker 1: there laying like an assassin laying and wait for them.
Speaker 1: So if so, if it's I, if an assassin was
Speaker 1: laying in wait for anybody, it would have been Molier
Speaker 1: and not the al Hillies. So it looks like they
Speaker 1: were probably the collateral damage here. Malier was the target.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about that theory. It was a planned
Speaker 1: hit on Molier. Okay, wait, well, you need to finish
Speaker 1: up those stuff about condem because we talked about a
Speaker 1: little bit about the whole thing with him and the
Speaker 1: Hussain regime. Oh oh, Conde, I guess, yeah, that might
Speaker 1: be a little bit confusing there. I mean Kadeem L
Speaker 1: Hilly of course, and Zai's dad. He moved to England
Speaker 1: with his family in y one. He moved back to
Speaker 1: Iraq in seventy four, did not take his sons with
Speaker 1: him apparently, and stayed there until two because he still
Speaker 1: had businesses over there, and so he basically was an entrepreneur. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so he basically went over there and I think
Speaker 1: eventually ran his businesses and eventually wound them down or
Speaker 1: sold them or whatever, and got out in two, which
Speaker 1: was kind of after Saddam's accession to power, because I
Speaker 1: think Saddam officially became you know, the big boss man
Speaker 1: in like seventy nine I believe, I'm not totally sure
Speaker 1: about that, right around seventy nine. Yeah, I mean, he
Speaker 1: was kind of the power behind the throne for a
Speaker 1: long time there, but he didn't become the big cahuna
Speaker 1: until about seventy nine and um. And so there's no
Speaker 1: indication that they were buddies or that they had any
Speaker 1: connection whatsoever, and the way things are, so this whole
Speaker 1: stashing Iraqi hidden war cash thing is probably just just
Speaker 1: something to papers. Yeah, I think so. I don't know
Speaker 1: if there was any real evidence for it, because there's
Speaker 1: no evidence that Saddam and Kadim knew each other, you know.
Speaker 1: And and for that matter, as I had said that
Speaker 1: Kaud he even actually did not like Saddam at all.
Speaker 1: Come on, Joe us from Iraq, he was buddies with, Yes,
Speaker 1: we're friends. Ye, so well, actually it was kind of
Speaker 1: you know, if you if you sort of let things
Speaker 1: take their course, eventually everybody would have been his buddy
Speaker 1: because he killed everybody he wasn't. Yeah, yeah, that was yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm joking, ye don't. We don't think that. Actually, I
Speaker 1: really love the quotes from my friends who I can't
Speaker 1: I can't directly quote because there's some foul language in here. Um.
Speaker 1: But he was blanking crazy, is what they used to
Speaker 1: always say when people ask them about what they thought
Speaker 1: about the pseudonymous Yeah, nobody, nobody who left that area like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was rather ruthless. But yeah, so next our next
Speaker 1: it was a plan hit on mal Sylvan the bicyclist. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: was at this time taking a three year leave of
Speaker 1: absence for this job as a welder. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: don't know why he was doing that. How do you
Speaker 1: get us for a year? That's crazy maternity to leave
Speaker 1: right there? Well, I mean alternity leave first of all, right,
Speaker 1: but but sometimes contracts aren't as plentiful, and maybe it's
Speaker 1: possible that he said, hey, listen, I'm going to take
Speaker 1: a three year sabbatical, you know, let me know when
Speaker 1: there's work again. Yeah, it's just it's a weird number
Speaker 1: to me. I'm sure that in in Europe it maybe
Speaker 1: it's something that's more college. Yeah, they like they definitely
Speaker 1: give people more. Like Intel here only gives you about
Speaker 1: a one year sabbatical, and Intel is weird for giving
Speaker 1: people sabbatical. Yeah. Yeah, So it's just it's a strange
Speaker 1: number to me, that's all I'm saying. And that's kind
Speaker 1: of a strange number. I don't know that I want
Speaker 1: to take that much time off from my job because
Speaker 1: I would probably forget how to do it too. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But but anyway, he was doing whatever he was doing that,
Speaker 1: particularly of course riding his bicycle, living with his girlfriend,
Speaker 1: Claire shoots. Uh according to yeah, yeah, according to the papers,
Speaker 1: Claire was from a very well off family. Apparently your
Speaker 1: dad owned a big successful pharmacy. Apparently she was buying
Speaker 1: it from him. And the papers took that to me
Speaker 1: that she was like a millionaire, so he was a
Speaker 1: gold digger. Yeah. Uh, And they said the papers also
Speaker 1: said Claire's family didn't like Molier and felt that he
Speaker 1: was sponging off of Claire, and then perhaps the family
Speaker 1: had had him killed, you know, And uh, all right,
Speaker 1: but then there was another theory apparently that Mollier also
Speaker 1: like to fool around um, and that maybe there was
Speaker 1: a jealous boyfriend out there didn't wanted to whack him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that was another theory that was out there. But
Speaker 1: of course, this this all runs, this all runs back
Speaker 1: into the same problem we have with the al hill
Speaker 1: He's being the target of the target of the head
Speaker 1: is that apparently nobody knew moll was actually going to
Speaker 1: bicycle up that road. He wasn't he was, well, he
Speaker 1: was don't on a bicycle that really was equipped for
Speaker 1: that kind of terrain. If yeah, he was on a
Speaker 1: racing bike. And and actually that's a paved road. But
Speaker 1: it does have some It does have some cracks and
Speaker 1: potholes in it. Uh, if you you know, you can
Speaker 1: see it. You can actually if you if you weave
Speaker 1: skillfully enough, you can for the most part, stay on
Speaker 1: smooth pave. But if you weave in between all the
Speaker 1: holes and stuff, it's gonna be a few patches where
Speaker 1: you're gonna, you know, rough up your little bike a
Speaker 1: little bit. And I don't know how. You know, those
Speaker 1: those racing bikes have got those incredibly super skinny little
Speaker 1: tires on that looked like, you know, if you run
Speaker 1: over a rock about bigger than your thomb, you're gonna
Speaker 1: totally destroy it, that kind of thing. Yeah, but apparently,
Speaker 1: you know, he was, he was cruising off that thing.
Speaker 1: Maybe he was so well off that he didn't worry
Speaker 1: about ruining his tires. I don't know, but he was.
Speaker 1: He was apparently, as far as we know, just randomly
Speaker 1: cycling up the end of the countryside that day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we don't know that for a certainty. I mean, maybe
Speaker 1: he was planning a secret rendebou up there, or maybe
Speaker 1: he told someone well maybe the best I was able
Speaker 1: to hear is that he told he was with Claire
Speaker 1: and her father, I think, and said he wanted to
Speaker 1: go out for a bike ride and was thinking about
Speaker 1: heading like south of the lake, and the Claire's father
Speaker 1: said something, well, you can take that road south out
Speaker 1: of Chevalry, and that's kind of a cool drive, you see.
Speaker 1: That sounds a little suspicious. Yeah, yeah, but that that
Speaker 1: road also has a lot of forks on it, And
Speaker 1: so he could have been they could have said take
Speaker 1: this turn and he just didn't take that turn and
Speaker 1: took the road straight the whole way. Yeah, it could
Speaker 1: have been that he was actually suggesting a different route
Speaker 1: than the one that that the Molier actually took, or
Speaker 1: they are covering up for something and yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 1: so yeah, so I could just picture it. Now he's
Speaker 1: out the door and other guys immediately okay, get to
Speaker 1: the spot now, ye coming Yeah. Now. The only the
Speaker 1: only way I can see this working out as as
Speaker 1: sort of a hit with molis target is is that
Speaker 1: perhaps he was the one that between the two parties
Speaker 1: between Sad and while Ya he is the one that
Speaker 1: was from the area, could perhaps have planned some sort
Speaker 1: of a meet up at that spot. We'll never know.
Speaker 1: There's absolutely no evidence to support that, and there's no
Speaker 1: evidence that he was involved in any sort of covert
Speaker 1: activity that would get this kind of thing that would
Speaker 1: get you killed, right right, So we'll just have to
Speaker 1: take that as you know, probably not, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: And then on top of that, on top of that,
Speaker 1: there's this question of how ruthless and horrible and heartless
Speaker 1: would have to be to not only want to kill
Speaker 1: one man, but then also think, oh, you know what,
Speaker 1: now I have to kill this entire family, including a
Speaker 1: seven year old girl. Like it's like that's just another
Speaker 1: step above. Yeah. Even in my most psycho moments, I
Speaker 1: would probably back opposite, you know, I think I'll wait
Speaker 1: until another day to kill you would think, yeah he
Speaker 1: would hope, Yeah, you would hope, so yeah, or maybe
Speaker 1: he was just that angry. Uh yeah, Okay, So much
Speaker 1: for that theory. There's another theory, which is that his
Speaker 1: brother Zaid had him killed over this state dispute, because,
Speaker 1: as I said, Cad had died the father and left
Speaker 1: eight hundred thousand euros and then Swiss Bank along with
Speaker 1: two excepting one house in Britain south of London and
Speaker 1: also in apartment in Spain. So I don't know how
Speaker 1: much all of that was worth a property. It's fairly valuable.
Speaker 1: I mean property itself tends to have a pretty decent
Speaker 1: price tag associated with it. So yeah, yeah, so somewhat valuable.
Speaker 1: It was rumored that the brothers were in a bitter
Speaker 1: dispute over the estate. Uh brothers, Zaid says. No, there
Speaker 1: was some disagreement, but it wasn't at the point where
Speaker 1: the people were ready to kill anybody. And to me,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it doesn't seem like enough money to
Speaker 1: go killing your brother over well your brother and his
Speaker 1: entire family. Well there's that too. Yeah. The other again,
Speaker 1: well he might not have liked his in laws, so
Speaker 1: he wasn't worried about the loss of them. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe maybe the nieces were kind of annoying
Speaker 1: to Yeah, that's but yeah, that's it's still it still
Speaker 1: does kind of run up against the whole problem of
Speaker 1: how how do you position your assassin to be in
Speaker 1: that particular spot and you just can't get past that
Speaker 1: little barrier that but one of hankey thing they found
Speaker 1: it checked his phone records and they found it. He
Speaker 1: called it never calls to five phone numbers in Romania
Speaker 1: and the week's leading up to the murder, which is
Speaker 1: a lot and apparently the call the call stopped after
Speaker 1: the murder. Can you refresh my memory? I don't remember
Speaker 1: what he does for a living. I don't. Uh, he
Speaker 1: is an accountant at that was the place. I can't
Speaker 1: remember the name of it. But yeah, he's got a
Speaker 1: but basically an accounting job. Yeah. So what I mean,
Speaker 1: is it possible he could have been calling some random
Speaker 1: overseas client. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. What was
Speaker 1: the date of the killing, Uh, September twelve, twelve. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that doesn't really correlate to any text times that I
Speaker 1: know of. Okay, I had no idea. But it could
Speaker 1: have been work related, I don't you know. I don't
Speaker 1: could have been could have been, um, some late night
Speaker 1: phone rendezvous. Yeah, it could have been he just was
Speaker 1: just calling one of those nine hundred numbers that happened
Speaker 1: to be in Romania. Could have been could have been that.
Speaker 1: I don't know. If my name is off, what would
Speaker 1: you like off? I'm a sexy woman. My name is Mario.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. So yeah, did he have a good explanation
Speaker 1: for what? I don't. I don't recall that he ever
Speaker 1: provided them with an explanation for that. Now it does
Speaker 1: seem I never found out what the explanation for what
Speaker 1: those calls. I'm starting to believe that actually it was happening.
Speaker 1: Is they were being followed by a helicopter the entire time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then they just dropped somebody down. They pulled to
Speaker 1: the side. Somebody just repelled down a rope, a bunch
Speaker 1: of shots, pulled back up, went away. Some some kind
Speaker 1: of stealth technology from Romania that we don't know about.
Speaker 1: Drone with a gun. It could have been how fire missile,
Speaker 1: probably not that, probably not that. That would be some
Speaker 1: spectacular police profidence. It blows him all to smither rainge. Wow,
Speaker 1: look at all these full it was a luger, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not. There's not a good explanation for somebody being
Speaker 1: stationed there have been in that spot. So then so
Speaker 1: then then it would be a random killing, very likely
Speaker 1: random killing. Yeah, which is also weird. Somebody, well, somebody
Speaker 1: just wanted to kill somebody and hung out in that spot.
Speaker 1: That's so. That's and there are a couple of a
Speaker 1: couple of suspects that they stumbled across. So I gotta
Speaker 1: tell you they're not great. Yeah they're there, but if
Speaker 1: they were great, they'd be in custody and we were
Speaker 1: probably yeah, probably a random killing suspects. We've got Patrice
Speaker 1: Menagaldo who he was fifty years old and fourteen when
Speaker 1: he was interviewed by the police. So he used to
Speaker 1: be a soldier in the French Foreign Legion, which I
Speaker 1: understand is a pretty rough outfit. Yeah, yeah, this is
Speaker 1: what I hear about him. Anyway, Apparently they had asked
Speaker 1: Claire Shuts that's Molier's girlfriend, uh to give them a
Speaker 1: list of everybody she had ever known. Apparently Patrice had
Speaker 1: had dated her sister or that was still maybe even
Speaker 1: dating her sister. I don't think I could do that
Speaker 1: everybody you've ever known. It would take me a long
Speaker 1: time to pickure that horrible with names, and it's only
Speaker 1: because of social media that I would be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that one guy that I knew for like three years,
Speaker 1: but I don't remember his name. I mustache you know,
Speaker 1: yeah that guy, Yeah, I really can't. But anyway that
Speaker 1: it maybe took her weeks to get get the list
Speaker 1: to him, but anyway, they looked him up. He was
Speaker 1: against she knew him, but he wasn't a suspect. No,
Speaker 1: they interviewed him for they interviewed him and just you know,
Speaker 1: just to see if he maybe knew something, even without
Speaker 1: realizing he knew something, you know, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: And and and talk to him, and then and then
Speaker 1: about two months later he committed suicide. Yeah, he left
Speaker 1: a seven page suicide note which the police will not release.
Speaker 1: Local prosecutor did did quote one sentence, which is quote,
Speaker 1: I could not handle being a suspect and a murder unquote. Um, except,
Speaker 1: of course, as we said, he wasn't a suspect, And
Speaker 1: of course the tabloids, you know, speculated that perhaps he
Speaker 1: was driven to death by his guilt or by by
Speaker 1: fear of getting caught. Yeah. I also always wondered if,
Speaker 1: because he was in the French Foreign Legion, if there
Speaker 1: had been stuff coming out about nefarious acts that were
Speaker 1: done while people were in the legion, And so you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. It's also it also could have
Speaker 1: been one sentence in a seven page, single space, uh
Speaker 1: you know, giant monologue that this guy has written, and
Speaker 1: they've just plucked this one thing the list of things
Speaker 1: he cannot stand. Yeah, it could. Yeah, I mean the
Speaker 1: smell of feet and the food in this place, and
Speaker 1: being implicated in murdered or the French language. Imagine how
Speaker 1: I'm saying that would be in France. I have a
Speaker 1: hard time believing that if there was any reason to
Speaker 1: believe that anything in this seven page suicide note would
Speaker 1: reasonably lead to him being an actual suspect, the police
Speaker 1: would have released it, or at least said, yes, we
Speaker 1: are looking into it, we think he actually was a suspect. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and if the only reference in this entire seven page note,
Speaker 1: it's just this one sentence, and I gotta say, it's
Speaker 1: not much to go on there. It's bad. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: kind of is, so this kind of yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I don't I don't take it too seriously. And the
Speaker 1: next guy, and this guy has also also found his
Speaker 1: way to the papers. He lived just in a little
Speaker 1: town just west of Chevaline, and the reason he came
Speaker 1: to police's attention is that they checked all the cell
Speaker 1: phone records. They wanted to see what cell phones paying
Speaker 1: the local cell tower that day. It turns out there
Speaker 1: were about four thousand of them, so they checked them
Speaker 1: all again. The police weren't slackers on this one. They
Speaker 1: did a lot of legwork. And one of the people
Speaker 1: whose cell phone paying that tower was it was Eric
Speaker 1: the Neva. So deva su perfect Yeah devas close enough. Again,
Speaker 1: not exactly surprising that he was on his cell phone
Speaker 1: that day. Four thousand other people were. Uh they they
Speaker 1: they tracked on all the numbers. They came knocking on
Speaker 1: his door. Uh. He was forty eight years old at
Speaker 1: the time. He had out a job as a policeman,
Speaker 1: which apparently he got fired from recently because he had
Speaker 1: too much of a temper. Oh, yeah, that doesn't apparently. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he'd also recently applied for a permit to carry again,
Speaker 1: although personally I don't find anything wrong with that, but whatever,
Speaker 1: But again nothing nothing really immoral or illegal. But it
Speaker 1: turned out, unfortunately for him, he had a collection of guns.
Speaker 1: And I don't know how the police if they searched
Speaker 1: his house, or if maybe he just answered his door
Speaker 1: and they looked over his shoulder and there's all these
Speaker 1: schmitcherub machine guns hanging on the I don't really know
Speaker 1: how they found it. But it turned out that he
Speaker 1: had a collection. Uh. There are a lot of them
Speaker 1: were vintage like World War two era weapons, and apparently
Speaker 1: you know, at least in this part of France. Apparently
Speaker 1: there's a lot of old old World War Two Eric
Speaker 1: guns in private collections, part of the resistance. So yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of pride there. Yeah. And you know,
Speaker 1: if I had a choice, my my, my great uncle
Speaker 1: gives me an old luder and old Schmitzer. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to take to the police to be melted down.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna hang on to it. But but you might,
Speaker 1: you might declare it. Well, that's it, and it was
Speaker 1: not illegal necessary, but he had to declare his collection.
Speaker 1: He hadn't done that, So you've gotten a little hot
Speaker 1: water over that. But apparently charges were dropped and nothing
Speaker 1: really came of it, but not the least that got him,
Speaker 1: you know, put on the front page of a lot
Speaker 1: of newspapers. Poor guy. Again, there's no real case against him. Um,
Speaker 1: so that's it. Our next guy came out, came sort
Speaker 1: of came out more recently. Um, this is Michael or
Speaker 1: excuse me, Michelle hacked a guy. Uh. I think it's
Speaker 1: Prince from Michael, right. Yeah. He actually he's actually Belgian. Uh,
Speaker 1: he's living in France these days, apparently because he was
Speaker 1: convicted in Belgium. In tooth was a native shooting his brother,
Speaker 1: his sister in law and his nephew. This was in
Speaker 1: two thousand five. Uh involved apparently shooting one bullet through
Speaker 1: a wall and I can apparently, like you know, kind
Speaker 1: of sort of came close to them and I don't
Speaker 1: know if this is an accident what happened. But he
Speaker 1: was tried on three counts of attempted murder. Yeah it's
Speaker 1: a magic bullets, I know, I know. But he he
Speaker 1: only got ten months for that crime, although that might
Speaker 1: have been ten months plus time already served well when
Speaker 1: you trial too. I'm not really sure. But apparently he
Speaker 1: was a potential suspect and a double murder in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty six because a sellmate of his and said that
Speaker 1: he had confessed to that crime. Yeah. I knows, such
Speaker 1: a problem with that. I have a problem with all
Speaker 1: those jailbird confessions and stuff, I really do. But but
Speaker 1: here's what the murder was. The murder was in eighty six.
Speaker 1: It happened in Brittany, French ye nine six, two British
Speaker 1: bicyclists on vacation were shot. UH. Their bodies were found
Speaker 1: buried in a shallow grave. In a corn field and
Speaker 1: as a man and a woman. And the investigating policeman
Speaker 1: who since became a private investigator's name is Pascal huch
Speaker 1: And said that the prate the two cases were uh
Speaker 1: he said, well, let me quote here, quote there are
Speaker 1: similarities between these killings. Weapons were used to close range,
Speaker 1: and both took place in isolated areas. Unquote. That's a
Speaker 1: pretty thin connection. Well that that would describe a lot
Speaker 1: of murders. Yeah, yeah, I really would. And actually that
Speaker 1: the m was not the same. I mean, the most
Speaker 1: detailed kind of heard is that the victims have been
Speaker 1: tied up, they were shot with a rifle buried in
Speaker 1: a shallow grave, which is a totally different m oh
Speaker 1: than this one. Yeah yeah, And so I don't really
Speaker 1: see the connection there myself. Um. And again, um, even
Speaker 1: if he didcommit those murders, you know, which I'm not
Speaker 1: so sure he did. So that's Michelle hacked. Um let's
Speaker 1: move on to our next one real quick, like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is this is this one has just come out
Speaker 1: like just last year, less than a year ago, right,
Speaker 1: this guy was unknown to the authorities until oh, I
Speaker 1: don't know, September last year perhaps, Yeah, yeah, he nordal
Speaker 1: Lellen day h thirty five X soldier who recently I
Speaker 1: think that was February, finally confessed to abducting and murdering
Speaker 1: an eight year old girl that was in Chanre, which
Speaker 1: is just southwest of Fantasy. Uh. And that's how he
Speaker 1: that's what he sort of got on the radar for
Speaker 1: this particular crime. So he was attending a wedding. Apparently
Speaker 1: the little girls I think she was eight, was at
Speaker 1: the same wedding. He abducted her in the years wee
Speaker 1: hours of the morning from the party and uh, and
Speaker 1: then you know, drove away with her and then came
Speaker 1: back to the party without her. And this this was
Speaker 1: all figured out eventually using you know, like close circuit
Speaker 1: TV and security cameras, but of course the police didn't
Speaker 1: put pieces together until like September. This was in late
Speaker 1: oct like late August. And uh, it turns out that
Speaker 1: he had also picked up a hitchhiking soldier twenty three
Speaker 1: year old guy named or no excuse me, twenty four
Speaker 1: years old Arthur Noyer, that was in April murdered him also.
Speaker 1: He confessed to that just like like days ago. In
Speaker 1: March twenty nine of finally finally fest up to that
Speaker 1: one too, and that was also that also took place
Speaker 1: his skill was found. Like, but I think about twenty
Speaker 1: miles from Lake Annessey between the two you can seems
Speaker 1: like it's hunting grounds. Yeah, kind of seems like so
Speaker 1: naturally that that gets him on the police radar for
Speaker 1: this guy perhaps being the killer in this case too.
Speaker 1: It seems well, he's an excel well and he's an
Speaker 1: ex soldier, right, so when was he serving as a soldier?
Speaker 1: Um writer that he was actually like a dog handler
Speaker 1: or something like that, but he was serving, right, Hey
Speaker 1: did serve? Yeah, so there be records of his whereabouts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like four years ago, actually six years ago, five and
Speaker 1: a half years and a half years ago at thirty five.
Speaker 1: You would assume that, you know, at the end of
Speaker 1: your twenties you'd still be serving. But I don't necessarily
Speaker 1: a lot of people do their service like eighteen to
Speaker 1: twenty two right in there. I don't know if that's typical.
Speaker 1: You know in America, you sign up for four years,
Speaker 1: you go into eighteen or nineteen in your early twenties. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I don't know, And again the seems different. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then and part of it, you know, to the press.
Speaker 1: I mean they think, like, oh, he was in the military,
Speaker 1: he's going to be a good shot. The killer was
Speaker 1: a good shot, so were a lot of other A
Speaker 1: lot of people in the military really can't shoot, were
Speaker 1: the damn and a lot of us Yeah, a lot
Speaker 1: of Yeah, and a lot of a lot of people
Speaker 1: who have never been in the military can shoot very well.
Speaker 1: It's actually in this particular case, you know, there was
Speaker 1: all this talk about it being a professional hit and
Speaker 1: actually shooting people in the head at that close of range.
Speaker 1: Isn't that hard? You know, it really isn't. I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, from an emotional point of view, it would be,
Speaker 1: but I mean from a technical point of view, it's
Speaker 1: not not that hard. Yeah. It also seems like, you know,
Speaker 1: he abducted this eight year old girl. There was a
Speaker 1: seven year old girl that was severely injured on the scene.
Speaker 1: It seems like, you know, what was stopping him from
Speaker 1: abducting her all that time. You know, he just if
Speaker 1: it was him, he would have had just murdered her
Speaker 1: entire family. I mean, take out with you, man. I'm
Speaker 1: not advocating for that. I'm sorry. I just don't. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I get what you're saying. And it seems different, totally different. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: he seems like more of an opportunist, that's what we're
Speaker 1: talking about, Nordel lan days at just this a total
Speaker 1: opportunist and and and really somebody who likes his victims
Speaker 1: one at a time. Yeah, and way less powerful than him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: probably that too. And then definitely unsuspecting. But the police
Speaker 1: are still checking out any possible connection. They're also looking
Speaker 1: into any connection between apparently nineteen other mysterious disappearances in
Speaker 1: the area. Apparbably there's been a bunch, uh, and so
Speaker 1: he might be connected to at least some of them,
Speaker 1: probably not all of them, you know, I mean there's
Speaker 1: no there's no telling. There might be two or three
Speaker 1: serial killers in that particular part of France right now,
Speaker 1: I mean really probably not. Probably not that big of surprise,
Speaker 1: so I don't see. Um. Yeah, the other bicyclist on here,
Speaker 1: which one is that he's not a suspect, which on
Speaker 1: that Bret Brett Martin, now he was, he was considered
Speaker 1: to be potentially a suspect, you know, And of course
Speaker 1: the Internet made a lot of the fact that well
Speaker 1: you got this this engineer who worked on satellites, and
Speaker 1: you got this this guy who worked in the nuclear industry.
Speaker 1: And then the guy who finds the body just happens
Speaker 1: to be an x R a F pilot. You know,
Speaker 1: A lot was made of that whole thing. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: so they thought big, big government conspiracy and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: But also, you know, it is possible that Brett Martin
Speaker 1: himself was the killer. But they did, I mean they
Speaker 1: the police obviously gave him a close look. I think
Speaker 1: gun for gunpounder, rescue, uh and all that stuff, and
Speaker 1: you know, and I think probably checked his schedule, like
Speaker 1: did the guy have enough time to to start where
Speaker 1: he did? People saw him? How did you have enough
Speaker 1: time to peddle all the way up there and kill
Speaker 1: everybody and then get the word out. Maybe he did,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it seems unlikely. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: he has not considered a viable suspect either. So that's
Speaker 1: it for the guys by name. There's other sort of
Speaker 1: vaguer theories on the internet, one of which is it
Speaker 1: was a road rage incident. Yeah, it's a single car
Speaker 1: road basically, well, where did the other car go? The
Speaker 1: other car had to have left and gone down the
Speaker 1: road where he's not supposed to go unless again, again,
Speaker 1: you only get to go down those roads unless you're
Speaker 1: a poor service worker or a local residents. Otherwise you're
Speaker 1: not supposed to go down and be down there. Of course,
Speaker 1: you can always till you knows that the rules. You
Speaker 1: know too, I mean, probably get away with it. You
Speaker 1: could also be a local resident. Yeah, it could be
Speaker 1: that too, And I tend to think that I tend
Speaker 1: to think that whoever did this probably was a local
Speaker 1: because I mean acts, because nobody was seeing other than
Speaker 1: the guy on the motorcycle. Nobody was seen leaving the area.
Speaker 1: And I guess you could walk out of there on
Speaker 1: foot maybe, you know, But so if you committed, if
Speaker 1: you committed the murders, you could get out by the
Speaker 1: back way, because if you follow those roads, it's kind
Speaker 1: of a maze. But you really will come back out
Speaker 1: to civilization again about five miles south of there, probably
Speaker 1: considering how how winey the roads are, probably more like
Speaker 1: about fifteen road miles. You're gonna be doing a lot
Speaker 1: of switchbacks things like that and everything. It's not something
Speaker 1: that I think you could really do if you were
Speaker 1: a stranger. To the area. But if you knew the
Speaker 1: area really well, you could kill those people and take
Speaker 1: the back roads and clear out the other side of
Speaker 1: those mountains without anybody seeing you exiting the area. And
Speaker 1: so that's why I suspect it was a local that
Speaker 1: did this, who knew the back roads. Yeah, and that's it.
Speaker 1: I'll throw out one more theory which somebody put out
Speaker 1: there was racially motivated. They see an Arab looking guy
Speaker 1: in a nice car and they decided to kill him.
Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, I rolled that was that was you know,
Speaker 1: I just thrown that one in there. It's a it's uh,
Speaker 1: you know. And then unfortunately, you know, the white French
Speaker 1: guy shows up and you gotta kill him too, you know,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you know. But so I don't I
Speaker 1: don't buy that one. The only contribution I had to
Speaker 1: make sure the French police on this one. As I
Speaker 1: think I mentioned to you, this guy's the series that
Speaker 1: I have. Well, it's not a theory, yeah, the bag
Speaker 1: at you know, that's it's the luger. Which is the
Speaker 1: thing about lugers is that, um, you know, I've seen
Speaker 1: lugers for sale and stuff like that, and maybe it's
Speaker 1: different in France, but here in America generally used lugers.
Speaker 1: You see him with one magazine, this one had three.
Speaker 1: It's just kind of unusual. It's really, actually very unusual
Speaker 1: to see a luger with three bags. So if I
Speaker 1: were the police, I'd sort of keep that in the
Speaker 1: back of my head. Not a major thing, but that's
Speaker 1: that's kind of Maybe you're looking at a collector here,
Speaker 1: somebody like that. Um, yeah, I guess. I mean, listen,
Speaker 1: if this thing is an heirloom, because we've we made that,
Speaker 1: we made a statement earlier about it could have been
Speaker 1: something somebody got as an heirloom from all over. Well,
Speaker 1: then that means that great Grandpa what's his name had
Speaker 1: several clips because at that time you had multiple clips
Speaker 1: because you were shooting the Nazis and you needed to
Speaker 1: make sure you had a fresh mag at all times.
Speaker 1: There's nothing to big of a deal. Typically those were
Speaker 1: carried by officers and that they then they might maybe
Speaker 1: carry one extra mag I mean, but you kill a
Speaker 1: couple of Nazi officers and you've got yourself a couple
Speaker 1: of extra magazines. Maybe I don't know. Again, it's just
Speaker 1: it's it's it's yeah, yeah, it's a good point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when you medal of honor, there's always magazine. It's just
Speaker 1: laying around right everywhere. That's what I love about that.
Speaker 1: But now anyway, then that's maybe maybe it's different in Europe.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I know here in America, luger
Speaker 1: mags are hard to come by. They're expensive. You gotta go,
Speaker 1: you know, you gotta go to a collector, one of
Speaker 1: these rare guys that you know, buys and celsis things
Speaker 1: to get them. So it just seems a little unusual
Speaker 1: to see one with two extra mags. Well it's a
Speaker 1: ruined gun at this point, probably right, because the grip
Speaker 1: the gun still work. Yeah, you can replace those, the
Speaker 1: gun will still work fine. Yeah, so that's really what
Speaker 1: they need is the ruined gun because the guy probably
Speaker 1: threw it in the lake or something. But I was
Speaker 1: going to say, really, what they need to do is
Speaker 1: find all the gun repair guys you know, a two
Speaker 1: mile radius and say, all right, which one of you
Speaker 1: fixed a luger that had a broken grip? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: well there are there are actually uh they're actually craftsmen
Speaker 1: who make replacement grips for guns. Like you can buy
Speaker 1: some fancy Rosewood grips for your must revolve or something
Speaker 1: like that. So yeah, contact all those guys who ordered
Speaker 1: some Luger grips, you know, and then there you go,
Speaker 1: that's your guy. Yeah, guys, come on, I know, I
Speaker 1: know the but the police, you know, again and again,
Speaker 1: unless Nordal the serial killer decides to confess, which I
Speaker 1: really doubt he will because number one, I doubt that
Speaker 1: he did it. But even if he did do it,
Speaker 1: I don't think he's going to confess because he didn't
Speaker 1: fess up to killing the little girl and also killing
Speaker 1: that twenty four year old soldier until the police presented
Speaker 1: him with all the evidence against him. They had him
Speaker 1: dead to rights, and then he finally fessed up and
Speaker 1: said where the bodies were and stuff. So they don't
Speaker 1: have anything on anybody for this killing. So I highly
Speaker 1: suspect nobody is ever going to get caught for this one. Yeah. Well, actually,
Speaker 1: the French police, there is one thing. If he started
Speaker 1: to go fund me or every appropriation to bring us
Speaker 1: to France, we might be still take a trip. We
Speaker 1: will come over there, and the camera glued to my
Speaker 1: face all the time because taking crime scene photographs not
Speaker 1: enjoying the beautiful that's happening alright. So anyway, if you're
Speaker 1: if you have any ideas thoughts on this one, send
Speaker 1: us an email. We have an email account. It's um
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. You forgot it
Speaker 1: for a second there, Well, now there was a little
Speaker 1: posse there. I was a about to recite my own
Speaker 1: perfect I just caught myself in the neck of time. Yeah, okay. Also,
Speaker 1: of course, we have a web page that's Thinking Sideways
Speaker 1: podcast dot com where you can find our episodes. There's
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Speaker 1: merch and god what else do we have on there?
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Speaker 1: out there. I thinking sideways podcast on that one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yes, that's right. I forgot taking sideways podcast because
Speaker 1: there's another You guys keep mentioning them, you're giving them
Speaker 1: tons of traffic. Give are your and call it good? Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: it sounds good. So that's everything you need to know,
Speaker 1: I think. All right, well that's it for this week.
Speaker 1: Any final thoughts you guys. This one's super sad, Yeah
Speaker 1: it is. It is really sad. Yeah, especially a little
Speaker 1: the little kids and all. Yeah yeah, but anyway, like
Speaker 1: I said, send us over there. We'll fix it, all right,
Speaker 1: But talk you guys later. Thie guys,