Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Wisenthal.
Speaker 2: Joe, I kind of missed this on Friday because I
Speaker 2: was not feeling very well, so I was out sick.
Speaker 2: But what was Friday morning like when you were sat
Speaker 2: in front of your Bloomberg terminal.
Speaker 3: Well, the jobs report was pretty shocking. Obviously Friday was
Speaker 3: just a crazy day. Yeah, So the jobs report, obviously
Speaker 3: it was bad. I mean, the last two months massively
Speaker 3: revised down, all of this evidence of labor market momentum
Speaker 3: perhaps seems to be stalling the tariff effect. Maybe we
Speaker 3: really are and it's sort of some sort of terriff
Speaker 3: and do slow down. The only job creation is in
Speaker 3: healthcare and social service.
Speaker 2: Not great, right, Okay, So I saw the initial jobs
Speaker 2: report headline. So we had non farm payrolls coming in
Speaker 2: at plus seventy three thousand, which I think was like
Speaker 2: thirty percent lower than the average expectation. We had the
Speaker 2: unemployment rate taking up to like four point three percent,
Speaker 2: four point almost four point three percent. Oh, let me
Speaker 2: let me sorry, I'm rounding up here.
Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, okay, although maybe I shouldn't.
Speaker 2: Do that on a podcast all about labor market statistics.
Speaker 2: But the big thing that seemed to catch everyone's attention
Speaker 2: was we also had these massive revisions to the report
Speaker 2: for May and June, so we had a combined two
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty eight thousand jobs basically lowered from the
Speaker 2: initial reports. And this was like the biggest revision since
Speaker 2: the depths of the pandemic. And then the headline that
Speaker 2: really caught my eye while I was, you know, laying
Speaker 2: in my sick bed on Friday afternoon, was Trump firing
Speaker 2: the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, so the
Speaker 2: agency responsible for putting out the non farm pay Roule
Speaker 2: Report every month.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is I would say. The key thing is
Speaker 3: that a we've been used to these, you know, seeing
Speaker 3: significant revisions. We've been talking you in particular, have been
Speaker 3: writing a lot in the newsletter about deteriorating quality of
Speaker 3: labor statistics. Response rates to a lot of surveys have
Speaker 3: gone down over time, kind of like we're seeing in
Speaker 3: political opinion surveys and so forth. So there's already been
Speaker 3: this sort of anxiety. You have a lot of people online,
Speaker 3: including President Trumpet himself, you know, been like stoking sort
Speaker 3: of these conspiracy theories about these revisions, these attempts to
Speaker 3: actually be transparent, and then you get the first sort
Speaker 3: of like genuinely negative report under this administration. It's the
Speaker 3: first one that was like, Okay, this was bad and boom,
Speaker 3: Trump fires the person responsible for it. Now again, this
Speaker 3: is one of those things where sort of like Doge itself,
Speaker 3: where it's like, I like the idea of government efficiency, right, yeah, sure, Doge.
Speaker 3: I like the idea of the BLS sort of doing
Speaker 3: a better job in some way or addressing these responses.
Speaker 3: But like Doge, which you know, we all have seen
Speaker 3: how that's turned out. I think there are a lot
Speaker 3: of more than a lot of questions, more than a
Speaker 3: lot of questions about whether firing to be less and
Speaker 3: replacing the head with someone who's you know, a Trumpet
Speaker 3: point t will you know, add a more credible transparent
Speaker 3: data clauding right.
Speaker 2: One thing that we have learned from all our episodes
Speaker 2: on data collection in the US is that it is
Speaker 2: actually a really really insanely labor intensive thing to do.
Speaker 2: You have to actually call up a bunch of people
Speaker 2: homeowners for instance, or you have to call up a
Speaker 2: bunch of businesses and ask questions. You have to go
Speaker 2: out into the field and gather individual prices. And we
Speaker 2: can have a debate over whether or not you could
Speaker 2: maybe use new technology or price scanning data to make
Speaker 2: all of that more efficient, but for the time being,
Speaker 2: that's how it's done, and so you need people to
Speaker 2: do it. And if DOGE comes in and eliminates, you know,
Speaker 2: a big chunk of the budget, then it becomes harder
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 3: Or if it just gets more costly and the budget's
Speaker 3: gone up, and then the one thing I would say
Speaker 3: is that in our conversations, and again you have talked
Speaker 3: to the BLS many times, they are really good. They're professionals,
Speaker 3: and they take it very seriously.
Speaker 2: They're very responsive, however, very transparent. We could talk about
Speaker 2: this a little bit, but perhaps less responsive than they
Speaker 2: used to be in recent weeks. So anyway, we should
Speaker 2: talk about all of this. I think it's really important.
Speaker 2: And as you said, there are big questions like what
Speaker 2: happens if a president ouse a BLS chief and then
Speaker 2: introduces a new one. We have the perfect guests. Someone
Speaker 2: we've spoken to before about the decline of America's data infrastructure.
Speaker 2: We're going to be speaking with Bill Beach. He is,
Speaker 2: of course, the former Commissioner of Labor Statistics, former head
Speaker 2: of the BLS. So Bill, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: coming back on all thoughts.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just really a pleasure to be back with you.
Speaker 4: I wish we were talking about some other subject besides
Speaker 4: this termination. I mean, it's just yeah, shocked.
Speaker 2: Well, on that note, Friday, Trump tweets or posts that
Speaker 2: he wants to fire Erica mc Andterfer, the Commissioner of
Speaker 2: Labor Statistics. What was going through your mind when you
Speaker 2: saw that news.
Speaker 4: I was dumbcast. I just finished a luncheon meeting at
Speaker 4: a very nice restaurant, and I was sitting in my
Speaker 4: pickup truck and I just couldn't believe. And then I
Speaker 4: sat there for probably thirty forty minutes, car running and
Speaker 4: answering emails, people just sorting it out. It isn't that
Speaker 4: he didn't have the authority to do so. He does
Speaker 4: have the authority. We all, you know, everyone in the
Speaker 4: executive branch serves as the pleasure of the president, except
Speaker 4: those that have been specifically exempted by statute, and where
Speaker 4: that statute has been signed by the President. I think
Speaker 4: what was shocking about this is not that she was dismissed.
Speaker 4: That's shocking enough. It was the possibility that we could
Speaker 4: have now a sustained attack on official economic statistics, and
Speaker 4: that would undermine confidence in those statistics and put us
Speaker 4: in a path that other countries have followed. I mean
Speaker 4: instantly people went to worst case. After a while, that
Speaker 4: sort of settled down, and we began to look at
Speaker 4: the reasons for the dismissal, which then subsequently said on
Speaker 4: Twitter or x that they were they were unfounded. And
Speaker 4: i haven't dropped that position since, so I'm happy to
Speaker 4: talk about it.
Speaker 3: Well, why don't we just back up for a second.
Speaker 3: We talked to you before, because you've been sounding the
Speaker 3: alarm about the capacity constraints to collect good data. But
Speaker 3: just for people who haven't listened to or haven't followed you,
Speaker 3: you were a Trump appointing. I mean, you served at
Speaker 3: the head of the BLS in twenty seventeen, and so
Speaker 3: I do you know, and it's tart of like, okay,
Speaker 3: your credibility. Why don't you just give us a little
Speaker 3: bit of background about who you are, your position, and
Speaker 3: the concerns that you've been raising for some time about
Speaker 3: the constraints at the BLS.
Speaker 4: So I was really honored to be the Commissioner of
Speaker 4: Labor Statistics from twenty nineteen until twenty twenty three. So
Speaker 4: I served a little less than two years under President Trump.
Speaker 4: He nominated me. It is a presidential nomination, Senate confirmed positions,
Speaker 4: it has a statutory for your term. And then I
Speaker 4: served the rest of my under President Biden. So I
Speaker 4: was in both terms. I think that's kind of important
Speaker 4: because the BLS Commissioner has been exempt from the normal
Speaker 4: turning over of the presidency by party. And that's because
Speaker 4: the view as well, these data are so important they
Speaker 4: should not even be a part of the political appointment
Speaker 4: process except when they come to. It's sort of like
Speaker 4: you know, the Federal Reserve chair or something of that
Speaker 4: nature has just seen as we want to keep it
Speaker 4: out of politics. So I served over that period of time.
Speaker 4: You know, that was the COVID period, so there were
Speaker 4: all kinds of real challenges from that, but I think
Speaker 4: the main thing that I drew from that period is
Speaker 4: how important it is crucial, almost were the crisis level,
Speaker 4: to modernize the way we collect data. The response rates
Speaker 4: on the surveys are falling dramatically. I've made that point
Speaker 4: on this program, and our costs arising dramatically, which makes
Speaker 4: it really difficult to conduct those surveys in the future
Speaker 4: and the way we have in the past, and then
Speaker 4: the future is kind of going in the direction of
Speaker 4: the employment survey, and I just said surveys are following
Speaker 4: with the employment surveys a little different. It's not an
Speaker 4: in person survey, it is an electronic survey, and we
Speaker 4: need to invest more in the electronic side of statistical
Speaker 4: creation or production, blended data, etc. I could do a
Speaker 4: whole program on this, but your point was well made.
Speaker 4: BLS has had some challenges in front of it, as
Speaker 4: has the entire statistical system. Unfortunately, for this particular episode,
Speaker 4: those challenges were really not I don't say relevant. They're relevant,
Speaker 4: of course, but they're really not the reason why we
Speaker 4: should have had a change at the top.
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of the employment report, talk to us about
Speaker 2: what exactly happens when the BLS is publishing the initial
Speaker 2: non farm payrolls and then what happens, you know, in
Speaker 2: the couple months or so before it publishes the revision,
Speaker 2: and why does it seem we are getting these large
Speaker 2: gaps at least in recent months and years.
Speaker 4: Right, So the employment survey, the jobs numbers come from
Speaker 4: a survey of businesses. The unemployment rate comes from a
Speaker 4: survey of households. So there's two surveys involved in every
Speaker 4: First Friday report. What we're talking about now is the
Speaker 4: survey that goes out to businesses, and it goes out
Speaker 4: to hundreds of thousands of businesses. Well, of course there's
Speaker 4: still a probability sample, since there's well in excess of
Speaker 4: twelve million businesses in our Census of business, our business register. Well,
Speaker 4: those businesses are supposed to turn their surveys in at
Speaker 4: the end of the month basically, but only about sixty
Speaker 4: eight percent usually that's the average do so, and so
Speaker 4: BLS keeps the window open for two more months, so
Speaker 4: sixty eight percent or so at the end of the
Speaker 4: first month they make the first estimate. Then at the
Speaker 4: end of the second month we've get about eighty three
Speaker 4: percent completion, and they revise that number of the first month,
Speaker 4: and then by the third month we're into the nineties.
Speaker 4: Usually end up around ninety three to ninety four percent
Speaker 4: of all the sent out returns. Come back to us
Speaker 4: with information. So it's a wonderful survey. The revisions are
Speaker 4: done because we get more information from businesses. Oftentimes big
Speaker 4: businesses answer first they have the capacity to do so,
Speaker 4: and then we get smaller entities, state and local governments,
Speaker 4: smaller businesses answer in those next two months. We always
Speaker 4: have revisions. There's there's even when we say the number
Speaker 4: did not change, it doesn't mean we didn't have revisions.
Speaker 4: They just canceled each other out. There's just all these
Speaker 4: revisions are coming in. The revisions have been high recently,
Speaker 4: but this is not a typical of a period when
Speaker 4: the economy is either going back to growth or going
Speaker 4: down to subsidence. So oftentimes turning points in the economy
Speaker 4: are accompanied by changes larger changes in the revisions. Particularly
Speaker 4: in this case where we SUSPEC effect. Smaller businesses are
Speaker 4: feeling the effects of the supply shock coming from the
Speaker 4: tariff policy and from immigration, and that these supply shocks
Speaker 4: are affecting smaller businesses more than they are larger businesses,
Speaker 4: and state and local governments are being affected by another factor,
Speaker 4: and that is the expiration of the COVID era money.
Speaker 4: I think that was actually the root of a lot
Speaker 4: of the changes that you saw on Friday. State and
Speaker 4: local governments are not able to hire at the levels
Speaker 4: they were going to hire at in previous years or
Speaker 4: did hire at in previous years because they did not
Speaker 4: have the subsidies that they had in previous years. So
Speaker 4: these are important revisions. Actually, the research shows, and this
Speaker 4: may shock you, that BLS is getting much better at
Speaker 4: its first estimate than it was thirty years ago. In fact,
Speaker 4: it's really kind of almost a steady progress towards greater accuracy.
Speaker 4: So the big revisions are indicative of not air of
Speaker 4: more information, and the bigger the revisions, the more likely
Speaker 4: we are in a turning point.
Speaker 3: There's so much that was in that answer that I
Speaker 3: found to be very helpful and clarifying, so thank you.
Speaker 3: I mean, just this idea, you know, a that actually
Speaker 3: over time, contrary to what people on Twitter might think,
Speaker 3: that the equality of that first pass has actually gone
Speaker 3: up is very striking.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: Let's stipulate that, Okay, the BLIS could use some upgrading.
Speaker 3: As you mentioned that there are these capacity constraints, non response,
Speaker 3: the cost of going out. Maybe it needs to adopt
Speaker 3: more technology in some way to solve for this. Does
Speaker 3: the BLS currently have that capacity, either budgetary wise or
Speaker 3: statutory authority such that a commissioner could just do that
Speaker 3: whatever it is that ideal state, or would it need
Speaker 3: either some sort of budgetary allocation or an Act of
Speaker 3: Congress to get to the point where it's you know,
Speaker 3: getting to the level that we are happy with.
Speaker 4: Again, it has the authority to make the changes, it
Speaker 4: doesn't have the budget to do so. And it isn't
Speaker 4: that BLS just needs more money, right. As a matter
Speaker 4: of fact, I think Congress, if it paid more attention,
Speaker 4: would say, well, what are you spending your money on now?
Speaker 4: And let's make sure that the low priority is canceled
Speaker 4: so that we can support the high priority. I think
Speaker 4: BLS would be very happy with that. But we do
Speaker 4: need more money. And why Well, if you're going to
Speaker 4: change an official statistic, the unemployment rate, let's just take that.
Speaker 4: You want to be really careful, right, You want to
Speaker 4: run tests, you want to test out your new idea.
Speaker 4: You don't want to have a count the number of
Speaker 4: geese in the air, and that's the unemployment rate. You
Speaker 4: want to make sure that that is a particularly good
Speaker 4: indicator of the employment market, and you want to test
Speaker 4: it in real time as well as experimental time. You
Speaker 4: in real time, so run it parallel. We these tests
Speaker 4: expand the costs of your unemployment statistics program because you're
Speaker 4: running essentially two systems simultaneously. That to modify the current
Speaker 4: population survey, which is the survey of households, would cost
Speaker 4: around fifteen million to twenty million in experimental costs over
Speaker 4: a two year period. It's not great. The program itself
Speaker 4: costs about forty five million a year, but it does
Speaker 4: add to the cost for those two years or so.
Speaker 4: Congress could could easily do that. I mean, oh my gosh,
Speaker 4: Congress is spending a lot more money than that on
Speaker 4: things that we might disagree with. But they need to
Speaker 4: allocate a little bit of money to CPS for that.
Speaker 4: Does it have the authority? Here's a really interesting story.
Speaker 4: During COVID, we canceled all travel, all conferences, you know,
Speaker 4: and I was surprised at how many millions of dollars
Speaker 4: went into travel and conferences and meetings. So this became
Speaker 4: for me couch money during the COVID years, and I
Speaker 4: was able to spend that money, you know, on important
Speaker 4: things I thought, So I did a lot of things,
Speaker 4: like I've built a new data center to get us
Speaker 4: out of the basement of one hundred and four year
Speaker 4: old building out to a wonderful above ground local location.
Speaker 4: But I also started a number of research programs.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: I made thirty one big modifications to do the CPI.
Speaker 4: We started a whole new approach on looking at consumer expenditures,
Speaker 4: and I subsidized some experimentation on the Jobs Report well
Speaker 4: as it as COVID was over, we started to get
Speaker 4: congressionally mandated programs that then sucked up all that counch money.
Speaker 4: If we had a little bit of extra, we I
Speaker 4: mean be only asked a little bit of extra to
Speaker 4: do these things. Let's just think of the innovation that
Speaker 4: they would happen. I think we would quickly be out
Speaker 4: of the problems that we are facing from a methodological standpoint,
Speaker 4: and that might then reduce the political pressure that we
Speaker 4: saw that was so evident on Friday.
Speaker 2: So we're recording this August fourth, nine, five am in
Speaker 2: the morning and thirty three seconds. I feel like I
Speaker 2: need to be that specific nowadays with the newsflow, so
Speaker 2: who knows what happens between now and when this episode
Speaker 2: actually comes out, but we are expecting the administration to
Speaker 2: announce a new BLS head in the coming days. What
Speaker 2: happens now, you know, there's a Trump appointee for a
Speaker 2: new statistics commissioner after the President has specifically stated that
Speaker 2: he thinks the previous commissioner was politically motivated in some way.
Speaker 2: Are people still going to believe the numbers that are
Speaker 2: coming out? And how do you think that's actually going
Speaker 2: to play internally at the BLS, at an organization whose whole,
Speaker 2: you know, Raison Deutch is to find, you know, factual
Speaker 2: numbers and statistics to portray the American economy.
Speaker 4: Well, I think there has been damage and it will
Speaker 4: take time to recover from that damage. The last time,
Speaker 4: there was a serious political effort on BLSS during the
Speaker 4: Nixon administration and it took some time for BLS to
Speaker 4: recover from that, though the action taken by the President
Speaker 4: at that time visa BLS was not, I think as
Speaker 4: significant as this one. So he just imagined that the
Speaker 4: President decides to appoint Saint Peter, you know, as the
Speaker 4: new BLS commissioner, and of course Saint Peter has a
Speaker 4: reputation for honesty and for clarity of thought. Still it'll
Speaker 4: be the case because Saint Peter won't have any control
Speaker 4: over the way that the data are collected, the data
Speaker 4: are assembled, or the estimates that are done. That's all
Speaker 4: done outside of the of the knowledge of the commissioner.
Speaker 4: Commissioner has no control over that. In fact, you're locked
Speaker 4: out of that whole process. So it will be the
Speaker 4: case that Saint Peter will have a month come when
Speaker 4: the unemployment rate will be disappointingly low, could even be negative.
Speaker 4: But I think given what has just happened, people will say, well,
Speaker 4: Saint Peter probably influenced that number and it's not as
Speaker 4: bad as it really is. So for a while, that
Speaker 4: suspicion that the estimate that's in ount it's really not
Speaker 4: the real estimate, will be in the minds of some people,
Speaker 4: not in my mind, because I know that these people
Speaker 4: who work there, the professionals, the full time staff, the
Speaker 4: patriots that work there, the loyal Americans who are just
Speaker 4: extremely diligent in doing an absolutely objective job. Those people
Speaker 4: are still in place. But if you don't have my
Speaker 4: level of knowledge, or a reasonable level of knowledge of
Speaker 4: how internally BLS works, you're going to be subject to
Speaker 4: these falsehoods and accusations, and that will be damaging, That
Speaker 4: will reduce investment, that will reduce economic activity, That will
Speaker 4: make at least that will create greater uncertainty about what's
Speaker 4: happening inside the US economy. Policymakers will be less clear
Speaker 4: in the direction that they take, So there will be
Speaker 4: a time when we need to recover. No matter who's appointed,
Speaker 4: I hope that it will be a short lived time.
Speaker 4: And my guess is, given the reputation of BLS, if
Speaker 4: someone you know, really reputable is appointed, then yeah, I
Speaker 4: don't think the period of transition will be that a lot.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, Bill Beach really appreciate you coming back
Speaker 2: on the show. Thank you so much for being on
Speaker 2: Off Box.
Speaker 3: Thanks Bill, that was great.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much for asking me.
Speaker 2: Joe so good to get Bill back on to talk
Speaker 2: about this. Really the perfect guest. There are so many,
Speaker 2: I guess ironies involved in this whole conversation. The big one,
Speaker 2: of course, is this idea that like, well, if Trump
Speaker 2: wants to convince everyone that the US economy is doing
Speaker 2: fantastic and job growth is great, then firing the head
Speaker 2: of statistics and having everyone distrust, you know, the subsequent numbers,
Speaker 2: because the subsequent head might be a political appointee who's
Speaker 2: you know, a loyalist to Trump. It seems like you're
Speaker 2: sort of shooting yourself in the foot.
Speaker 3: The other huge contradiction is that he says Powell is
Speaker 3: too late. Yea wait, this is the other huge contradiction,
Speaker 3: which is every day he slams Powell, he's like, oh,
Speaker 3: you're too late, you need to cut rates. Well, if
Speaker 3: the job numbers were weak, then I could understand this
Speaker 3: argument to some extent, oh the job But he's also
Speaker 3: casting expersions on the negative jobs numbers. So how is
Speaker 3: Powell too late? I mean, this is I mean, it's
Speaker 3: an irretrievable contradiction in the two criticism of both of
Speaker 3: the Fed and the BLS.
Speaker 2: It's definitely a contradiction. I don't think, however, that Trump
Speaker 2: necessarily draws a direct connection between the unemployment rate and interest.
Speaker 3: Rates as well.
Speaker 2: You know, he seems to just like low interest rates.
Speaker 3: And he seems to perceive that low interest rates are
Speaker 3: basically a reward for an improving economy. But yes, but I.
Speaker 2: Mean, lots of other contradictions. You're absolutely right. So another
Speaker 2: one is this idea that Okay, a lot of the
Speaker 2: weakness came through on the revision side. The revisions are
Speaker 2: mostly coming from small businesses who reply late. And if
Speaker 2: you think about the Trump administration, you know, they always
Speaker 2: sort of portray themselves as a good business environment for
Speaker 2: smaller businesses, and it might be that that scenario that's
Speaker 2: seeing some weakness.
Speaker 3: I thought your question about sort of internal morale, and
Speaker 3: as Bill said, you know, an agency staffed with patriots,
Speaker 3: I mean, I just you know, is Bilska going to
Speaker 3: be continue to be a destination for people who are
Speaker 3: patriots right or take their job seriously in the future
Speaker 3: is a really interesting question. Also, the idea that like
Speaker 3: maybe we could like get high data quality for like
Speaker 3: twenty million dollars. Given how much that's worth, it's just
Speaker 3: like drives you crazy if that's really all it took.
Speaker 3: But also I really like this idea that it would
Speaker 3: have to always be done in parallel with the current thing,
Speaker 3: such that the new data is sort of provably backwards
Speaker 3: compatible with the old data. Right, so if you're going
Speaker 3: to adopt a new methodology, you need some allocation, run
Speaker 3: two surveys at once, et cetera. Anyway, even in a
Speaker 3: very short conversation. Learned a lot from Bill. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: I do think it's worth pointing out out that there
Speaker 2: are other statistical agencies in the world that are experimenting
Speaker 2: with new technology for data sources. The UK Statistics Agency
Speaker 2: in particular, they're going to start using you know, price
Speaker 2: scanning data for CPI.
Speaker 3: Wait, have you heard about the whole thing though, with
Speaker 3: how they moved the Ons to Wales and no one
Speaker 3: wanted to go out there, And have you heard about this?
Speaker 2: I have Wales. It's all that bad.
Speaker 3: Attribute the largest of the government across. Everyone loves that idea.
Speaker 3: Let's not have it all be concentrated in London. They're like, okay,
Speaker 3: we're going to make everyone move to Wales and now
Speaker 3: it's a lot harder for the Ons to hire anyone. Anyway,
Speaker 3: it's just a little interesting story out Maybe we'll cover
Speaker 3: it at.
Speaker 2: Some point why people don't want to move to Wales.
Speaker 3: No interesting, it's interesting, right, Like there's intuitively I love
Speaker 3: this idea of like, oh, why should all of the
Speaker 3: government spending on public sector stuff at the federal level
Speaker 3: in the richest city in the UK, or why should
Speaker 3: it all be in dc et cetera. Should this idea
Speaker 3: of diffuse anyway, it's a separate thing. It's actually some
Speaker 3: interesting challenges arise for.
Speaker 2: Okay, shall we leave it there?
Speaker 3: Yeah's leave it there.
Speaker 2: This has been another episode of the oud Lots podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.
Speaker 3: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.
Speaker 3: Follow our guest William Beach, He's at Beach WW four
Speaker 3: five three. Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Kerman Ermann,
Speaker 3: Dashel Bennett at Dashbot, and Kale Brooks and Kale Brooks.
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