1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: Thing from my Heart Radio. The United States criminal justice 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: system can be a challenging and often deliriously expensive labyrinth 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: of court filings and trial dates. My guests today are 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: two women representing those most in need of assistance navigating 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: that system. Attorneys were not a lun and Susan Church, 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: We're not a lund. Trains and supervisors public defenders for 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: New York County, defender services and organizations serving the city's 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: most vulnerable communities. But first, I'm talking to immigration attorney 10 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: and advocate Susan Church. Church successfully represented the Occupy Boston 11 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: protesters and sued the Trump administration over its so called 12 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: Muslim Band With her Massachusetts law firm Dimissy and Church. 13 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: She now represents individuals involved in the Martha's Vineyard immigration 14 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: case pro bono. This past September, Florida Governor Rhonda Santis 15 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: commissioned two planes to transport migrants seeking asylum in the 16 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: United States. They were flown under false pretenses from San Antonio, Texas, 17 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: to the wealthy vacation island of Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts. The 18 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,559 Speaker 1: move was an attempt by de Santis and Texas Governor 19 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: Greg Abbott to draw attention to illegal immigration at the border. 20 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: The stunt made headlines as a cruel and heartless ploy, 21 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: and as Santis was criticized for playing political theater with 22 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: people's lives. Before we got into the specifics of the 23 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: Martha's Vineyard case, I wanted to know how Susan Church 24 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: found her way to progressive politics. So this is a 25 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: really interesting issue. I'm adopted, and I grew up in 26 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: a very conservative Republican household. I grew up all around 27 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: the country, so Idaho, North Carolina. We moved around a lot. 28 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: But they were kind of like what we call welld Republicans. 29 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: So they're kind of like the Mitt Romney Republicans. They 30 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: were not, you know, blatantly like today's Republican Party. They're 31 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: the old Republican Party. But I found my biological mother 32 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: when I was much older, when my children, I had 33 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: some problems getting pregnant, and so I found my biological 34 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: mother as my children were being born. She's a left 35 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: wing Democrat, Like she's Angela Davis. Your real mother was 36 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: Angela Davis. It's very funny, it's very interesting. So I 37 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: always talk about that because sometimes I think empathy is 38 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: genetic in some ways, because I certainly did not get 39 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: it from my growing up. Now in your career, you've 40 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 1: been working in this kind of law for how long? 41 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: An immigration related law? So I started immigration law in 42 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: My husband is actually from Ethiopia and he was switching 43 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: law firms and he said, just take this one asylum case. 44 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: You'll love it. Because I was a criminal defense attorney, 45 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: and that's what I really loved. How long did you 46 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: do the criminal offense to defense works? So that was sorry, 47 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,959 Speaker 1: I met so three years. I was a public defender 48 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: and that's all I ever wanted to do. New Hampshire 49 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: that was fun. And when a place that, I mean, 50 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: I don't know New Hampshire that well, but I have 51 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: friends who are from there and have homes there. What 52 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: was the typical criminal defendant who needed public defending a 53 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: lot of drug cases or what, yes, lots of drugs, 54 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: less of heroin even back then. Lots of domestic violence 55 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: and lots of sexual assaults. That was kind of the 56 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: big crime that was going on there, especially the indecent 57 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: as solemn batteries on child and things like that. So 58 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: that was unpleasant. And so your husband says, take this 59 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: one case. What was the case. It wasn't my husband's 60 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: from Ethiopia. So it was a political asylum case from Ethiopia. Yes, yeah, 61 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: and he had a great asylum claim, but he had 62 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: gotten into some immigration related problems with this case. It 63 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: wasn't filed correctly. You know, his lawyer has screwed everything up, 64 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: and so he was in deportation proceedings. So I represented 65 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: him and that and I in love with immigration law 66 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: from that point in time. One thing I'm also wondering, 67 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: just in terms of the background of this thing, were 68 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: the people you work with in this issue and beyond 69 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: how are you paid? I mean, do they go and 70 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: get money they raise from wealthy benefactors, do packs that 71 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: you work with or not for profit groups? I mean, 72 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: where do they find the money? I mean, you're not 73 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: doing this for free. You've got to be paid something, correct. 74 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: I really don't believe in taking money, as much as 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: possible for tragedies Like I did all this work on Afghanistan. 76 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: I didn't take any money to travel band work that 77 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: I did. I didn't take any money. I feel like 78 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: it really is exploitation to try to get these individuals 79 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: to pay me. But I work with a lot of 80 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: nonprofits and the way they operate is they get grants, 81 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: they get individual fundraising. They're always on shoestring budgets. Agree 82 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: a groups I've worked with that are very well known 83 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: groups will all kick in money. Well, they'll they'll say, 84 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: we need money for legal fees. Oh, we gotta raise 85 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: a million dollars, like in a month. Send us you know, 86 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: we want you know, twenty people to send us fifty 87 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: grand now, and so they can get the legal these 88 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: going because their budget wasn't just allowing that. They just 89 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: need a team of lawyers on the ground for election 90 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: protection or whatever. It is, so absolutely and they need it, 91 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: like you know, I worked a lot with South Coast 92 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: Legal Services on this case, and they're just a tiny 93 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: little nonprofit that does legal services just I mean, very 94 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: shoestring budget. And they had lawyers at the site day 95 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: after day after day, all day and night at the base. 96 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: Once the migrants from martad In your removed to the base. 97 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: So tell us what happened in this case. What are 98 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: the facts of what happened? Okay, So these forty nine 99 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: individuals are almost all of Venezuelan immigrants, why. That is 100 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: a really good question. We know that the Venezuelan economy 101 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: has been deteriorating for quite some time, so was there 102 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: an expanded concentration of Venezuelans trying to come into this country. No, 103 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: I think this is what I think, and I think 104 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: your question is really smart because normally in Boston we 105 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: have El Salvador and Guatemalan Central Americans, and they all 106 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: have family that they go to normally, so you don't 107 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: see them hanging around at shelters. They don't necessarily need 108 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,799 Speaker 1: money to get a bus ticket because people are sending 109 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: the money to make the trip. But Venezuelans are in 110 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: probably one of the most dire situations right now, and 111 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: so they're just leaving, often with no money, often with 112 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,799 Speaker 1: no resources, often with no contacts in the United States, 113 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: and they are therefore much more easily preyed upon by 114 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: the likes of De Santis. And I believe that's what's 115 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,799 Speaker 1: been happening here well, aside from being preyed upon by DeSantis, 116 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 1: because that's a huge net that's been cast of people 117 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: paid upon by Dessantis. The Venezuelans is Texas the normal 118 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: destination for them as Texas Texas or Arizona, Arizona for 119 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: that's normal from immigrants from any part of Latin America. Okay, 120 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: so these people come to Texas, they've been there for 121 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: how long? It was just days? So they've been there 122 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: for days, just days, not long at all. And where 123 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: were they? Where were they? So what happens when you 124 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: come into the borders. You get into one of the 125 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: federal processing holding centers and the border patrol officers take 126 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: your photograph, take your name, try to figure out if 127 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: you have any family in the United States, do a 128 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: background check, and then after a couple of days they 129 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: if you Usually you pass what's called a credible fear interview. 130 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: But that didn't happen here, which is also a little 131 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: suspicious to us. We don't know why. Instead, all of 132 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: these individuals were parolled in, which is different. It's a 133 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: weird legal status that we don't see much up here 134 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: in Massachusetts. It could be more common on the board, 135 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: and I've been asking my border friend attorneys around. It's 136 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: not that common, but it's not out of the ordinary either, 137 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: So no one's suggesting. I take it that anybody behind 138 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: this was deliberately casting criminal elements to come in just 139 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: to embarrass the Biden administration. None of these people were 140 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: people who proved criminals and many of them absolutely not. 141 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: And so you know, I have one particular client who 142 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: had been out of Venezuela for years. So I know 143 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: there was a right wing media story going around that 144 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: that Maduro had opened the jails and sent these people here. 145 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: But based on our reviews, that's absolutely false. Because people 146 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: had been out of the out of Venezuela for some 147 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: people a year. So I met one guy seven years 148 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: he'd been gone. So they just finally made it to 149 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: the US border after years of trying. Now where was this? 150 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: All forty nine of them were in the same facility. No, 151 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: this is what's so interesting, and this is something the 152 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: media is not picking up on, and nobody seems to 153 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: be investigating. All forty nine of them, in various forms, 154 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: made their way to this shelter in Texas, in San 155 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: Antonio that had just been opened in July, just in July, 156 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: and Perla, the woman who was lying to them to 157 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: get them onto the plane, waited outside that shelter. Now 158 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: why I'm suspicious of that shelter is it has a 159 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: three day rule. You can only stay there for three days. 160 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I don't know many 161 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: shelters that have a three day rule. What's the point 162 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 1: of a shelter that says you get to stay three days? 163 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: It doesn't happen up here, and it just opened in July. 164 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: When you have the three day well, what are they assuming? 165 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: In your mind? What are they assuming? Where are you 166 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: gonna go home? Exactly? How did anybody find a house 167 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: in three days or an apartment in three days? It 168 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, right, It doesn't serve the purpose of 169 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: a quote unquote shelter except for Parla to stand outside 170 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: and recruit people who were suddenly found themselves homeless again 171 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: after three days. Of course, because this is slightly more 172 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: complex than people might imagine. These are people who were 173 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: in a state. Is it a Texas state or a 174 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: federal facility that they go to. It's a federal facility. 175 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: So they're going to a federal facility in the state 176 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: of Texas. And where does de Santis, the governor of 177 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: Florida come in. Why is the Santis deciding that Texas 178 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: immigration problem is under his jurisdiction. So that's the craziness 179 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: of this story. Also, they were picked up from Texas 180 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: and flown to Florida after stopping in North Carolina. First reason, 181 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: and to Santis's argument, is that they would have eventually 182 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: ended up in Florida. So we're going to bring them 183 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: to Florida to them fly them to Massachusetts. All of 184 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: it is just part of his stunt to get credit 185 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 1: for quote unquote removing individ Jules. So you're calling Abbot 186 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: and saying, could you lend me some illegal immigrants because 187 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: I really want to embarrass the Biden administration. It's ridiculous. 188 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: It's ridiculous. And the crazy part is it's part of 189 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: this twelve million dollars that I don't know if you 190 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: saw this, but the Treasury Department is now investigating to 191 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: Santis for this nonsense because the money that they use 192 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: is part of the interest on the American Recovery with 193 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: Act funds that they were given for COVID, So they 194 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: took that money and put it towards these flights. So 195 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: a plane flies them. How many planes were involved in 196 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: this caper? Two planes? Two planes? Who would who owned 197 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: the planes? The state of Florida? Well, no, it's a 198 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: private aviation with connections to mac Gates another interesting fact. 199 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: So matc Ate choosed to be the attorney for these 200 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: private company that charted the flights. But what I'm curious 201 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: about is, I mean, it's not that complex to follow. 202 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: It just it's it's mystifying to understand why. So the 203 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: governor of Lurida, who is presumed to be the likely 204 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: nominee if Trump gets more black and blue than he 205 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: already is right now, he gets a private aviation company 206 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: to fly to Texas to pick up forty nine Thenezuelan 207 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: immigrants in multiple low federal locations there bring them to 208 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: North Carolina. You don't know why in North Carolina. We 209 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: think it was for a pilot change. But I still 210 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: don't understand why there would be a pilot change, because 211 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: like it's not that far of a flight. It might 212 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: be a refueling one that some of the clients guess 213 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: that that's what it was about. And some of the 214 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: clients said it was a pilot change. We don't really 215 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: know for sure. And we're in Florida. Do they land 216 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 1: the Panhandle up in the north, right up near where 217 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: the capital is right? How long are they in Florida before? 218 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: Or is everything already nice and greased and everything is 219 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: ready to go. I mean, they land in Florida, and 220 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: do they go right to the vineyard. I think they 221 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: were there just a long long enough for De Santis 222 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: to hold a five minute press conference about it, and 223 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: then they left. They didn't seem like they had been 224 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: there for very long. They were totally sure what was 225 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: going on. To be honest with you, well, De Santis 226 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: is someone who it's assumed he's going to use every 227 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: single facet of the State of Florida's regulatory apparatus to 228 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: benefit his supporters and to punish his opponents and to 229 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: humiliate the Democratic administration. And I wonder is De Santis, 230 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: at least through the prism of this case, is he 231 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: viewed as someone who he was the architect of this 232 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: himself or other aids of him, who authored this program, 233 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: who came up with this idea. That's a great question. 234 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like it is him. He's I 235 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: feel like what you've brought up is probably one of 236 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: the most important things that's going on. The Democratic Party. 237 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: But that everybody's missing. Everyone's focusing on Trump. Trump is 238 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: at least wounded. Maybe he's not dead yet, but he's 239 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 1: certainly wounded, and he would have a much harder time 240 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: I'm getting the presidency than De Santis would in my opinion, 241 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: if De Santis were the nominee. He does enough nonsense 242 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: like Trump is, but he's much smarter, much much smarter, 243 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: and much more capable than Trump ever can imagine being, 244 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: and he could do real damage. So my question had been, 245 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: was De Santis or someone underneath him the architect of 246 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: this and the planes themselves? If you take two planes. 247 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: When I've flown on private planes and they didn't cost 248 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: me anywhere near twelve million dollars to fly privately on 249 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 1: a plane that can handle you know people, that's more 250 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: like eight five thousand dollars round trip cross cross country. 251 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: They spent twelve million dollars on these planes of COVID funds, no, 252 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: so what they spent with six hundred thousand dollars on 253 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: the first on the first two flights, and then after 254 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: the first two flights there was a second payment for 255 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: nine hundred and fifteen thousand dollars, so it was about 256 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 1: a little more than well, it's one point five million. 257 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: So with two flights going from from Texas to Florida, 258 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: stopping in Carolina and the flights that went to Martha's venued. 259 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: How many planes were involved there too, again too, but 260 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: before the flights, each of the and I don't think 261 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: this is up to one point five millions based on 262 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: what you're telling me. The cost is for private flights. 263 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: But before the flights, there were McDonald gift certificates that 264 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: were given out as bribes to individual to sign the 265 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: waiver form the quote unquote weavers that weren't even in 266 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: fully in Spanish. There were hotel rooms for anywhere from 267 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: one night to a week for each of the forty 268 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: nine people. I don't know what that works out too. 269 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: And they had two other handlers besides Pearla, So there 270 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: was Pearla and then two other people. Well, I want 271 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: you to stop for a second and give us a 272 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: kind of a thumbnail on who is Pearla. This is 273 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: another super interesting thing which has de Santis's name written 274 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: all over. She is a counter intelligence individual from the 275 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: army who also was a medic who had just left 276 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: been discharged from the Army in August. I don't think 277 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: it's been clear last name Pearla who to h U 278 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: E R t A. And The New York Times did 279 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: a story on her. I think it was this past 280 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: weekend where they've identified her. So I gave the New 281 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: York Times at least three different photographs of Perla that 282 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: my clients or other clients at the base had taken, 283 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: and then the New York Times did some investigation and 284 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: verified that this is the person. So Perla, has anybody 285 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: come forward? I mean, I don't assume that all these people, 286 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: regardless of what effort they make, can operate exclusively in 287 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: the shadows. Did you find that anything about her, who 288 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: she is and what she involved another? I mean, a 289 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: woman named per La Huerta. I don't want to be 290 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: too generalizing. Here is an emissary of one of the 291 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: great anti immigration efforts in this country in the last 292 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: twenty five years. Who is she? I mean, what was 293 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: her role in immigration? What was her role in the 294 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: Santi's administration. She doesn't seem to have any role because 295 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: she just got out of the army. She's counter intelligence, 296 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: that's really what she's working for De Santas. She certainly 297 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: counter inte that. Yeah, I mean, I think it's important 298 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: to note that she's kind of intelligence, right, because this 299 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: is a good example of what you're talking about. Earlier. 300 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: If Trump had hired this person, just imagine the buffoon 301 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: they would have hired, right, It would have been some 302 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: fool who probably didn't speak Spanish and tried to use 303 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: interpreters or whatever. Instead, they've hired this woman who appears 304 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: to be native Spanish speaking. My clients told me that 305 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: she was Mexican, Colombian, or Venezuelan, depending on which client 306 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: you talked to, So you don't even know based on her. 307 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: That's and that's a big thing to pull off, right, 308 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: not to be able to fool these immigrants into thinking 309 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: which countries she's originally from. And she's paid to lie 310 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: as a counterintelligence officer. So when I heard that, I 311 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: really thought, this is much bigger than a buffoonery Trump stuff. 312 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: This is the type of thing that they do when 313 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: they're competent, and that's what scares me about him becoming president. 314 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: Attorney Susan Church. If you enjoy conversations with women fighting 315 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: for justice, check out my episode with Attorney Becca Heller, 316 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 1: who fought back against Trump's Muslim ban. Heller is the 317 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: founder of the International Refugee Assistance Project. The thing that 318 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: was amazing about Airport Weekend is that, like We organized 319 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: the lawyers, but nobody organized the protesters. Totally spontaneous. Thousands 320 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: of Americans went out in freezing shitty January weather to 321 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: just be like, this is not cool. The executive order 322 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: was rescinded before the lawsuit. The lawsuit we once said 323 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: that they can't hold people. But the one that we 324 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: won right away wasn't about sort of the legality of 325 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: the order on its face. It was the public pressure 326 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: that got the administration to rescind the executive order and 327 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: the so called chaos at the airports, which I will 328 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: forever be proud of. To hear more of my conversation 329 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: with Becca Heller, go to Here's the Thing dot org. 330 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: After the break, Susan Church weighs in on the laws 331 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: against human trafficking and whether the Martha Vineyard debacle qualifies. 332 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's the Thing. 333 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: Attorney Susan Church is fighting for the immigrants involved in 334 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: the Martha's Vineyard case and arguing for bringing charges against 335 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: the Descantis administration. I wanted to know how she first 336 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: got involved with the case. So the story is that 337 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: the clients were dropped off of the vineyard. They were 338 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: dropped off in front of what they call a house, 339 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: which apparently is the Martha's Svineord Community Association, and then 340 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: you know, the police were called, the media was called, 341 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: the story got out. Had the media been tipped up 342 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: by the descentis people in advance? We believe there was 343 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: a Fox News reporter on the island that day. Yes, 344 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: we believe they wanted them there for the landing, right exactly, 345 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: roll stage right, all, stage all, a stunt, all at 346 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: the expense of these people's lives. So when you have 347 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: immigrants in the media, often they make statements that are 348 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: detrimental to them. You don't want them doing that. Were 349 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: you aware what was going on while that was happening. 350 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: You didn't know about until it landed on the vineyard. No, 351 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: not until that. I didn't even know. I didn't read 352 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: the news that and I didn't know about till the 353 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: morning I got the call. So when they when they're 354 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: playing lands in the vineyard, who calls you? Who tips 355 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: you off? Where you saw it on the news? I 356 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: got called by the Lawyer's Community for Civil Rights Van 357 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: Magical ESPINAG and he said get on a zoom right now, 358 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: and then so everyone said, Okay, who's going to go 359 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: to the vineyard, because somebody needs to go right away 360 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: to protect the clients, get statements from them about what 361 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: happened so that we can later use that in the lawsuit, 362 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: which of course is what we did. You want to 363 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: get facts down right away in situations like this, and 364 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: that's what lawyers are quite good at. So my law 365 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: student went on Thursday. I went on Friday, and Vane 366 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: had a couple of his lawyers there, Rachel's self was there, 367 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: and then we were I was at the base every 368 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: single day for the next ten days. Almost p will 369 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: often assume, because the word human trafficking has been injected 370 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: into this event, is this human trafficking as far as 371 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: the laws concerned, or you don't know. I don't think 372 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: it qualifies. I've spoken to probably one of the best 373 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: human trafficking experts for immigration. Others like people who are 374 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: sexually exploited. These people were lied to as to what 375 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: the circumces were correct, So that's the argument. They were 376 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: told they were getting on a plane for what reason. Oh, 377 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 1: every lie under the book. They were going to get 378 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: a job, they were going to get permanent housing, they 379 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: were going to Washington State, they were going to California. 380 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: They were they were given a false, a patently false 381 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,959 Speaker 1: inducement to get on that plane for political gain. So 382 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: you are right in the sense that if there is 383 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: any human trafficking argument, the political game portion of that 384 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: would be. But human trafficking is moving people for a 385 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: financial gain usually, so you have to try to monetize 386 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: political gain. Why Martha's Vineyard meaning in my mind, I mean, 387 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 1: I've had a home on eastern Long Island among you know, 388 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: a fairly a thick stripe of well to do seasonal people, 389 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: many of whom are the captains of media and titans 390 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: of media. Martha's Vineyard is the same. There's a lot 391 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: of media giants there. I could name a few, but 392 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: not all of them are liberal Democrats. I mean, some 393 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: of the most conservative ones live up there. Why Martha's Vineond, 394 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: Why do you think that was it because of Obama? 395 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: I'm guessing it was because of Obama. I also think 396 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: they wanted to torture them by holding them captive in 397 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: that way, by putting them on island. One of my 398 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: clients told me that when he realized it was a hoax, 399 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: after they rang the doorbell for the Martha's Vineor Community Association. 400 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: They all started feeling that they were going to get 401 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: in trouble for being on the island, so they tried 402 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: to run around the island and get off, looking for 403 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: a bridge off the island. Of course there is none, 404 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: so I think that added to the drama of it. 405 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: I also think it was because they wanted to stick 406 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: it to Obama. Also, Martha's Vineyard is a super diverse 407 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: island and and a very community oriented oriented island. I 408 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: keep saying that they picked the wrong island. There was 409 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: a tweet that somebody else said, if you're going to 410 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: send a bunch of people who are impoverished and not powerful, 411 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: don't send them to Lawyer Island next time. So I 412 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: really feel like they made a mistake in doing it 413 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: because they picked the wrong island. It's it's a great 414 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: community of great people, and they really rallied around these individuals. 415 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this, but they all 416 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: are going to get green cards now because of this trick. 417 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: The U card, the visa, Yes, what is a you visa? 418 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: You visa is something that Congress needs to fix. It's 419 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: not a great option, but ultimately is a victims of 420 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: crime visa that leads to a green card. There are 421 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: ten thousand given out in any year. There's a huge backlock, 422 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: but at some point in time it's an application that 423 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: will lead to both a work authorization and a green 424 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: card for these individuals. I mean, obviously, I'm someone who 425 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: has a very bitter perspective about the Supreme Court. You've 426 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: got three people. You've got Gorsetch, You've got Barrett, and 427 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: you've got Kavanaugh, who to the American people who bald 428 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: face lied and said that abortion was codified law. Did 429 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: you see this coming in your work with immigration, did 430 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: you see something or something like this coming these kinds 431 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: of stunts. Were you surprised? Absolutely surprised. I mean, I 432 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: just I don't know why I continue to believe in 433 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: the decency of humanity. I mean, I was well aware 434 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 1: of the bus sing that was going on to the 435 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: Northern States. But to be honest, as long as people 436 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: were told honestly, yeah, you know, I want to go 437 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: to New York and here's a bus to get I 438 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: don't have a problem with that. I think they're much 439 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: better often in blue states that they have more access 440 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: to better judges, better green card capabilities and everything. But 441 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: I can't believe it. I still can't believe they would 442 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: sink this low. And I must be naive, but I 443 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: still don't believe that they demonize and deshumanize our clients 444 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: this way. I just I've never gotten over it. Well, 445 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: state income taxes in New York are obscene, and they 446 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: are obscene, but we're using them to pay for things 447 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: to improve people's lives. To exes in Florida, which I 448 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: think there's zero taxes down, there's no state income tax, 449 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: and other states have every low income taxes. The way 450 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: they achieve that is they don't take care of anybody. 451 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: You don't have any medical care if that's worth ship, 452 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: you don't have any education that's worth shit. They cut 453 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: and cut and cut services, and the way they can. 454 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: And if you come to this state and you've got 455 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: a retirement account, your your retiree, which is Florida's right 456 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: now for your retiree, and you've got an insurance thing 457 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: that works for you, and you know you're you're covered, 458 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: you're taken care of, and you come down here, this 459 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: is the land of where you come where you don't 460 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: give a shit about your neighbors and what happens to them. 461 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: Everybody's on their own, every man for himself. Florida is 462 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: the state of every man for himself. Now do you 463 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: fear that cases involved in this are going to get 464 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court. It's a really good question. So 465 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: there's a bunch of lawsuits that have been engendered because 466 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: of this. But one is the one that Lawyers Committee 467 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: Civil Rights filed, and that is a compensatory meaning font 468 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: monetary damages and for a restraining order against against A 469 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: Santists for doing this again because there was I don't 470 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: know if you know, there was an attempt to do 471 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: it to Delaware that we believe we scared off with 472 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: all the criminal investigation. There's talk of there was a 473 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: Nantucket false alarm this weekend. They were going to send 474 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: it in Nantucket so to stop them from doing this again. 475 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: And I do fear that that lawsuit would make it 476 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court, and that would be really problematic 477 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: because here's why. There is a two thousand and twelve 478 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: case called Arizona the US where Arizona tried to enact 479 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: a misdemeanor criminal charge for being undocumented in Arizona. A 480 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: misdemeanor charge for working without an authorization in Arizona, things 481 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: like that, And the Supreme Court said no, immigration was 482 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: federal and it's pre emptied by the federal government, which 483 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 1: would make what de Santists did clearly and unequivocally illegal. 484 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: When did immigration become the devil term? But it is 485 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: now what period of your life do we call or 486 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: even in your studies and your work, was it Goldwater 487 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: and the John Birch days? Was it Reagan? When did 488 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: immigration become something that was a negative in our lives? 489 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: To Santa's great grandparents came here from Italy, and now 490 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: he's done all this to immigrants. He's wounded all these 491 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: immigrants this way. The reason I'm an immigration lawyer is 492 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: the law signed into law by Bill Clinton, and that 493 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: was we call it EDBA and ira Ira, And that 494 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: was the law that said that it used to be 495 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: that immigrants would go back and forth across the border. 496 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: They come here, they'd work for two years, they go home, 497 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: right because people no one wants to leave their country. 498 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 1: And EDPA and ira Ira, along with the militarization of 499 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: the border, trapped people into the United States. So that's 500 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: why our undocumented immigration population blossomed is because people if 501 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: they go home now, they are subject to lifetime bars 502 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: on re entering and they get expelled at the border. 503 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: And if you stay, you may have a chance to 504 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: regularize your status at some point in time in the future. 505 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: Reagan actually did amnesty. I don't know why people don't 506 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: talk about that, but I have many clients who got 507 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: their green cards through Ronald Reagan's Amnesty for program. So 508 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: I really think it was Clinton's law. That law then 509 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: trapped people in the United States, forced them not to go, 510 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: and then that caused this growing population of undocumented immigrants. 511 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: What's next now in terms of your activities in the courts? 512 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: Where whereas everything headed in the immediate sense, So we 513 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: will probably start hearing in the lawsuit filed by a 514 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: Lawyer's Committee for Civil Rights. I know that all of 515 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: my lawyers right now who volunteered, we had every pro 516 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: bonent representation arranged for every single immigrant that arrived in 517 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: Martha's vineyards. They're all drafting their U VISA applications in 518 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: sending them to the government right now as we speak. 519 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: So and and the last thing we really need for 520 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: these individuals as work authorizations who we're working with the 521 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: Biden administration and calling on them to reissue paroles for 522 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: these individuals so they can all apply for work authorization. 523 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: My thanks to you, Susan Church for all of your 524 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: good work, and I'm always happy to meet these heroes 525 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: helping the desperate people who are getting deceived by the 526 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: pearl la Awertes of the world. I mean, this goes 527 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: on and on the sanity of this, but thank you 528 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: so much, and best of luck to you with the 529 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: rest of your endeavors here. Thank you, thank you so much, 530 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: thank you for having me immigration attorney Susan Church. My 531 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 1: next guest attorney were not A. Lun Is the director 532 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: of training for New York County Defender Services, a firm 533 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: that offers public defenders to those who cannot afford their 534 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: own council. Lund Is a graduate of Columbia Law, has 535 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: clerked for the Southern District of New York and worked 536 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: at the Legal Aid Society for over a decade before 537 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: her work at nyc d S. I first spoke with 538 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: Lund in June of one, at a time when COVID 539 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: had drastically changed the justice system. I wanted to know 540 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: why she chose and admittedly difficult line of work. I 541 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: like people. I love that they're complicated and full of contradictions, 542 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: that I believe that no one is all good or 543 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: all bad. It just made sense to me to be 544 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: an advocate for people in a system where they're reduced 545 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: to just one act, one thing. So the prosecutor tells 546 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: a story and their criminal complaint or an indictment. It 547 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:12,719 Speaker 1: might not even be a true story, and it just 548 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: captures one moment in a person's life. And as a 549 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: public defender, I get to work with investigators, I get 550 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: to know my client. I get to work with social 551 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: workers and find the nuances and complexity and context of 552 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: that story and then tell that story to prosecutors, two 553 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: juries to judges. And so that was the calling. And 554 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,479 Speaker 1: there's a second piece of that too, and that's the 555 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: racial justice piece. The United States incarcerates more black people 556 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: now than we're enslaved under slavery. That civil rights battles 557 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: of our generation are being fought in criminal court. I'd 558 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: like to think if I was born fifty years earlier, 559 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: i'd be a freedom writer in Mississippi. I don't know 560 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: if I'd really have the courage for that, but I 561 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: do know that I have the courage to be a 562 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: public defender in the twenty one century. Now, the New 563 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: York County Defender Services, it says that it in the 564 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: research we did that was formed. What changed? What was 565 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: the prior office of public defenders in New York and 566 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: what was what? Why was there a change? Sure in 567 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: New York City up until the mid nineties, there was 568 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: just the only game in town with Legal Aid Society. 569 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: They had offices and all five boroughs they do have 570 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: offices in all five private enterprise yes, that contracted with 571 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: the city to provide public defender services. And Legal Aid 572 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: Society was unionized at the time, and the union went 573 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: on strike, and in order to break the strike, Giuliani, 574 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: who is the mayor at the time, put out a 575 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 1: call for other public defender agencies to be formed. And 576 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: so at that time Bronx Defenders, Brooklyn Defender Services, Queen's 577 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: Law Associates which is now Queen's Defenders, and your County 578 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: Defender Services were born. And this is completely government funded. 579 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: There's or do you avail yourself as from some private 580 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: funding as well. We would be delighted to accept private funding. 581 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: If anybody's listening and wants to make a donation, you 582 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,239 Speaker 1: can do so on our website. But most of our 583 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: funding is from the City of New York as a 584 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: contract provider and all so from we got some state 585 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,479 Speaker 1: funding as well. And how many people in the staff 586 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: over a hundred. We have sevent dy attorneys, but we 587 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: also have investigators, social workers, paralegals, admin staff, civil attorney, 588 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: immigration attorneys, data specialists. Now, I mean, I have many 589 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: questions for you, but the first one that comes leaping 590 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: to mind is the virtual court room. We've had a 591 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: year and a half or so of virtual everything, and 592 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: I'm wondering what was the described for me? Because as 593 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: a layman, the first question that comes to mind is, 594 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: how can courts turn around and say you got to 595 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: go into our room with a computer and have you 596 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: What if you don't have an internet, you don't have 597 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: a computer. What if you don't want to go into 598 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: your lawyer's office who has a computer because of the 599 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: COVID itself? How did the exactly Oh, just picture the 600 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: worst zoom call you were on with your family or 601 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: friends or work associates, and now imagine that your liberty 602 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: is at stake. I mean, imagine that zoom call where 603 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: Grandma you only see her forehead and then the wall 604 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: and ceiling because she can't figure out how to, you know, 605 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: use the visual. Someone logging out and back in because 606 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: their WiFi is bad. Someone sounding like a sad robot, 607 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: like all those technical issues. You have a judge calling 608 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: in virtually, you have a court reporter calling in virtually, 609 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: and so our clients we try to guide them through 610 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: using Microsoft Teams. That's the app of the courts recommend 611 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: using frequently it doesn't work, so our clients will then 612 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: call in via telephone. Sometimes we will be the public 613 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: defender or the attorney will face time with their client 614 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: and then hold their iPhone up to their laptops that 615 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: the judge can see the face on FaceTime on someone's 616 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: phone through the laptop, and we would try to conduct 617 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: court that way. It really to humanize our clients. But 618 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: I'm also assuming that the legal community, not just n 619 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: y CDs, your organization, but lawyers in general. The Bar 620 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: Association National or New York had some significant protests about 621 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: how fair this was or I mean, what if somebody 622 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: didn't couldn't afford a phone, what if they didn't have 623 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: a computer, What was for two people that was safe, 624 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: that was COVID safe for them to appear quote unquote 625 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: in court. So for many people, their cases were just 626 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: put on pause in a sense. So the course of 627 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: people without those technological resources, they were punted. Usually if 628 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: you don't show up to court, a warrant is issued 629 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: for your arrest. It's called a bench warrant at the 630 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: judge issues And for many months during COVID, they just 631 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: didn't issue warrants. And so I think there there's probably 632 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: many New york Is still out now who forgot about 633 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: a case or thought, Okay, I haven't had to go 634 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: back to court for a year, or it's COVID. I 635 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: don't know what's going on. But who still have these 636 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: these open warrants? And our attorney has made every effort 637 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: they could to contact clients, to write letters to homeless shelters, 638 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: to we sent investigators knocking on the doors of last 639 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: known addresses, and we did offer the opportunity for clients 640 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: to come into our office and use the computers. Some 641 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: clients would meet at a counselor's office if they were 642 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: already in some sort of program, or try to use 643 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: a public phone to call into court. But yeah, there's 644 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people. I think I might have gotten 645 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: lost in the system. I'm assuming that there are different 646 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: types of cas where you're entitled to a jury trial 647 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: if you want one. In New York, you're not entitled 648 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: to a jury trial if the maximum sentence you could 649 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,240 Speaker 1: get is ninety days or less. That's for expediency sake. Yeah, 650 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: So a minor crime like attempted pettit larceny, attempted drug possession, 651 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: steal a woman's pocketbook in the park, not even it's 652 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: stealing a woman's pocketbook in the park. If it's on 653 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: her shoulder, that would be a grand larceny. That would 654 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: be a felony. If you steal a woman's pocketbook in 655 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: the park and it's maybe just sitting on a park 656 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: bench while she's checking her phone, that could be pettit 657 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: larceny depending on what's in the pocketbook. If it's worth 658 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: lessan a thousand dollars. If you tried to take it 659 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: and she said, oh no, you and grabs the pocketbook back, 660 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: that would be the attempted petit larceny. So for that, 661 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: you don't have a right to a jury trial unless 662 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: you're not a US citizen and then the Court of 663 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: Appeals held, Look, the immigration consequences, the consequences of being 664 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: deported are graver than ninety days in jail, and so 665 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: if you're facing serious immigration consequences, you have the right 666 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: to a jury trial. Is it safe to assume that 667 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: people showing up with the public defender that stigmatizes them 668 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: in front of a jury and a yes. Unfortunately, because 669 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: we have I think some of the best attorneys in 670 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: the country working in our office, and public and defenders 671 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: are I think on the whole, some of the best 672 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: attorneys in general that you will find. But unfortunately, there 673 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: is still this this stigma. So juries we don't usually 674 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: notify a jury there's uh, that's a public defender representing them. 675 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: I don't have not allowed to tell them. I could. 676 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: It could be. It can be a strategic call, right, 677 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: Like if I'm representing someone who's charged with being involved 678 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: in some sort of drug dealing scheme and the jury 679 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: is going to see that they're represented by a public defender, 680 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 1: they might say, well, yeah, this guy, and I'm arguing 681 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: that you know, my client wasn't involved, or he was 682 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: just a drug user who is being taken advantage of 683 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: by the real drug dealers, then I might exactly that 684 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,760 Speaker 1: all lawyered up here exactly. So it's a strategic decision 685 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,760 Speaker 1: if you want to look like your client could afford 686 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: h fancy private lawyer, or if you want to let 687 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: the jury know this is an indigent person with a 688 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: public defender. I have found in the few cases where 689 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: I've ended up in court in my life. There's been 690 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: a couple of times I ended up in court for 691 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: different things, but you realize that they really don't want 692 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: people to go to trial. Yes and no. I mean 693 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: there is a lot of pressure to take please and 694 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: that pressure doesn't just come from the court. It often 695 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: comes from the extenuating circumstances in our client's lives. For example, 696 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: you know, maybe they're involved in a custom dispute with 697 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: their partner, and if they go to trial and lose, 698 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: it would look a lot worse than if they just 699 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: played guilty to harassment and did a batter's intervention program 700 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: or something like that. Or often people are suspended from 701 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: work while there's an open case. There's security licenses might 702 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: be suspended. TLC licenses are suspended if you have an 703 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 1: open case, So there's a lot of incentive for people 704 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: to take any kind of get it over with that 705 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: they can return to work. And of course immigration consequences 706 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: to play a big role in people's decision making. When 707 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: you come into a courtroom, you see some pretty intense 708 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,439 Speaker 1: circumstances that people live under, and I would imagine there's 709 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,959 Speaker 1: a constant flow of people where homelessness, joblessness, and drug 710 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: addiction is a big part of um. Do people in 711 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,800 Speaker 1: your office, even though they're not called upon to h 712 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,959 Speaker 1: to comment about this publicly, do they develop opinions about 713 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: what they think is our social programs that might be 714 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 1: adjusted to lower crime social services? Well, you're not allowed 715 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 1: to comment. No, Actually I am allowed to comment. And 716 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: it's funny that you should say that, because I think 717 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: the notion of a public defender has expanded in the 718 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: last ten or twenty years. Where it used to be 719 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: we just put our heads down into individual cases. Now 720 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: we're looking more systemically and thinking about systemic project I 721 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,439 Speaker 1: thought right, And so as far as what we would 722 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: like to see as far as social services, a big 723 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: one is just mental health services, mental health including substance use, 724 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: because so often the response is, oh, there's someone who's 725 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: talking to themselves on the subway platform, let's call the police. 726 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: And we've all seen the worst case scenarios of what 727 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: happens when then the police end up killing someone for 728 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: that person pushes somebody exactly exactly, and and things just 729 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: get elevated quickly. And so there's not a lot of 730 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: options for people who have mental illness to get treatment, 731 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: to have the support, to have housing. So mental illness 732 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: comes to mind, drug treatment, making sure that's available, and 733 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: just getting police out of schools. New York recently raised 734 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,800 Speaker 1: the age we used to have one of the lowest 735 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: ages when someone could be charged with a crime. And 736 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: so as an adult, yeah, so I would represent like 737 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: sixteen year olds who got into fights in high school. 738 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: I mean just fist fights. I'm not talking about anything 739 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 1: that I didn't see in my all white high school 740 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: where the principles of the school used to take care 741 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: of exactly exactly, or parents or communities. And then the 742 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: police would come and then they've got and with two 743 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 1: people are assaulting one person, more than one persons of 744 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,879 Speaker 1: all to becomes a felony. It's a violent felony. All 745 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: this stuff. So just getting police out of schools, having 746 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: letting schools focus on education, I think there would be 747 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,320 Speaker 1: my two big things. But I find it interesting is 748 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: this idea that we've increased criminal penalties in order to 749 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: monetize a system and for people to make money, you know, 750 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: mandatory sentences. I mean I am a huge opponent of 751 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: mandatory sentences. You elect judges, they're appointed by people were 752 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: supposed to accept these appointments and these election results for 753 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: people who have tremendous power, and then we say you 754 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: can't use your judgment. Here's your mandatory sentencing guideline. What 755 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: is your opinion of mandatory I think they're horrible. They 756 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: handcuffed judges, and like you said, each case is unique, 757 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: in each individual is unique. And to say that this 758 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: idea that somehow someone is going to learn a lesson 759 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,479 Speaker 1: after seven years that they won't learn after five years, 760 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: and certainly wouldn't learn after three years, like, it's absurd 761 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: to me and it just doesn't make any sense. I 762 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: think we've gotten more draconian in terms of the idea 763 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: of rehabilitation and what we do with these people once 764 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 1: they put away has become like a distant second. It's 765 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 1: not even on them the charts rer abilitation. Do you agree? Yeah? Absolutely, 766 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: And I think you know, funds are being cut for that. 767 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: There used to be pell grants so that people in 768 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: prison could go to college and take college courses well 769 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: in prison, and that was found to reduce recidivism, but 770 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: that was cut. One of my pet peeves is what 771 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: we call the capaganda police shows right the law and 772 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: order and c s I and all those spinoffs that 773 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: just show crime as being done by a very bad 774 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,399 Speaker 1: scheming person who can't be rehabilitated and doesn't again doesn't 775 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: tell the complexity of a of a story. And also 776 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 1: the majority of people we represent, the majority of cases 777 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: are misdemeanors. There's non violent felonies. There's even cases that 778 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: sound like violent crimes. The man who was taking the 779 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: hats off of people, you know, on the Coney Island 780 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: subways fifty years ago, that could have been maybe charged 781 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: even as a robbery in the second degree if he 782 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,399 Speaker 1: was doing that with friends. Again, sounds like a violent 783 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: cry in these marauding youth. But when you take a 784 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: step back and hear the stories and get the context, 785 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 1: it's never that sort of CSI villain. It's never so contrary. 786 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: So you've been at this for a while, you've been 787 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: at this sphere over fifteen years. What's the new crop 788 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: of lawyers? Like, how are they different from you? Are they? Yes? 789 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 1: What's wonder full about them is again, I, you know, 790 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: keep coming back to these racial justice issues. But I 791 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: read the New Gym Crow after I was a public defender. 792 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: Then we started interviewing people who read The New Gym 793 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 1: Crow in law school. Then we started interviewing people who 794 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,720 Speaker 1: read the New Gym Crow in college and were inspired 795 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: by it. Now we're interviewing people who read the New 796 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: Gym Crow in high school, were inspired by that, knew 797 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,399 Speaker 1: they wanted to be a public defender. So they took 798 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: whatever classes in college and interviews and or internships in 799 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: college that could get them on a path to doing 800 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: criminal law. Went to law school knowing they wanted to 801 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 1: be a public defender. Like these are people who are 802 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: supremely dedicated to the job and have thought about it 803 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,879 Speaker 1: for many years. So already they are coming with this 804 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: this understanding of the systemic problems of the criminal legal system. 805 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: They're not just motivated by you know, upholding the Constitution 806 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: and the right to counsel and the six Amendment, but 807 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 1: by a very deep drive for justice, not just for 808 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: our clients, but in the entire system. And so it's 809 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 1: become incredibly competitive to be a public defender. Like we 810 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: thousands of resumes. We are turned down people who go 811 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,799 Speaker 1: to top law schools because they don't have what we're 812 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 1: looking for. That drive to try creases the ability to 813 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: relate to clients. It is one of the most competitive 814 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 1: jobs you can get after law school. It's amazing to me. 815 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: And yeah, I wish I wanted to get that message 816 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: out there because like Columbia, I went to Columbia, so 817 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: their their office will often reach out to me and say, hey, 818 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: we've got a great crop of five people who want 819 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,280 Speaker 1: to be public defenders this year. You know, they'll interview 820 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 1: with my office. Um, they stay connected with you, they 821 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: stay connected, but it doesn't necessarily, you know, it doesn't 822 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: guarantee a job in my office. And as I told 823 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:41,760 Speaker 1: my stunt applicants, oh yeah, and and you know, the 824 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: the year that we interviewed several people from Columbia, I 825 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 1: think there was just one that we hired and the 826 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 1: others they've landed in other places around the country. But yeah, 827 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,760 Speaker 1: it's it's very difficult. As I say to my my boss, 828 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: whenever we do the hiring process, I feel like it's 829 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: like drowning puppies. You know, we can't keep all the 830 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 1: puppies in the litter. So but they're incredibly smart, bright, talented, 831 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: dedicated people. When you speak about your career and the 832 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,879 Speaker 1: work you do, and you're obviously so heartfelt and you're 833 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,919 Speaker 1: so dedicated this work, and I'm so impressed that there's 834 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,439 Speaker 1: people like you in this world of public defending who 835 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: really care on this level. I have this silly image 836 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 1: of you sitting there having lunch with a friend of 837 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: yours who went to Columbia and she's had a big 838 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: litigating firm, and she's got, you know, the thirty thou 839 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: dollar wristwatch and the hand Like there's a whole world 840 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,239 Speaker 1: you could have had that you have forsaken in order 841 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 1: to do this kind of work. Do you ever have 842 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: any regrets? No, not, not for a second. You talked 843 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: about New York and challenges of working in New York City, 844 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: and one is that you are next to so much wealth, right, 845 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,920 Speaker 1: You're a proximate to so much wealth. A lot of 846 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 1: our new attorneys have roommates. If they started a big 847 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 1: law firm, you know, they could practically buy a house 848 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: with their summer bonus. But the work is meaningful, it's rewarding, 849 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,799 Speaker 1: it's fun, and at the end of the day, one 850 00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: of the beautiful things of being a public defender is 851 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: you have a lot of autonomy and sting of your 852 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: own schedule as far as you know, you have to 853 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: be incorded at a certain time, and you have to 854 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 1: make sure you make time to meet with clients. But 855 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: then that your time is your own. You don't answer 856 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,800 Speaker 1: to a partner in a law firm who calls you 857 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: on Friday night and says, okay, cancel your money. Yeah, exactly, exactly. 858 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: And so my husband loves to cook, and you know, 859 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: I've said I would love to be able to buy 860 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: you a huge house with a huge kitchen, but your lawyer, 861 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,480 Speaker 1: but then we'd never be able to eat in it, right, 862 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: And then I'd never get to eat your cooking. So 863 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,880 Speaker 1: I'd rather eat your cooking in our humble kitchen. Attorney, 864 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: We're not a lun If you're enjoying this conversation, tell 865 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,359 Speaker 1: a friend and be sure to follow here's the thing 866 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: on the I Heart radio app, Spotify or wherever you 867 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. When we come back, We're not a 868 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: Lune gives her take on rising crime rates in New 869 00:44:48,960 --> 00:45:04,840 Speaker 1: York and how those statistics are misleading. I'm Alec Baldwin, 870 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,960 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the thing. I originally spoke 871 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: with Renato Lun of New York County Defender Services in 872 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: June of two thousand twenty one, when COVID held a 873 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 1: strong grip on the court system. I decided to have 874 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: Lun back to get an update on her work since 875 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,840 Speaker 1: the city's reopening. Another development since we last spoke was 876 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,359 Speaker 1: the swearing in of Mayor Eric Adams on January one, 877 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: two thousand twenty two. Adams has inherited an increasingly problematic 878 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 1: Riker's Island Correctional facility. It's a constant storm of violence, disorder, 879 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 1: and staff absenteeism, with inmates going without food or medical care, 880 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 1: and where seventeen people have died this year. While candidate 881 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,719 Speaker 1: Adams campaigned to close the facility, Mayor Adams wants to 882 00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,960 Speaker 1: transition to Plan B and find an alternative to shuttering 883 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 1: the jail. I wanted to know Lung's take on New 884 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,560 Speaker 1: York City's new mayor and the moves he's made since 885 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 1: entering office. Disappointing. It's disappointing to hear someone say that 886 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,759 Speaker 1: he wants to bring back solitary. It was disappointing that 887 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,399 Speaker 1: he did not keep on Vince Giraldi, who was really 888 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: trying his best as Commissioner of Corrections. You know, Rikers 889 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,120 Speaker 1: is still in crisis, and it's not getting towards that. 890 00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 1: It is a virtually intractable problem. You know, I I've 891 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 1: been thinking about this how Rikers is just there are 892 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 1: no adjectives right, inhumane, tortuous, city owned for those who 893 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,879 Speaker 1: don't know New York. Yeah, and since around the time 894 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: of COVID, since we last spoke, a lot of Corrections 895 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,359 Speaker 1: officers call out sick. They have unlimited sick time. There's 896 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,359 Speaker 1: sort of no consequences for calling out sick, which is 897 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,440 Speaker 1: awful for our clients because if there's not enough staff 898 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 1: and Rikers, they aren't protected. But they also don't filled 899 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 1: by the inmates right, right, So we have clients answering 900 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: the phones, escorting each other to places, often locked in 901 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,399 Speaker 1: because they can't be escorted to a council visit, can't 902 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,759 Speaker 1: be escorted to medical can't be escorted to get their 903 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 1: medic medications or for a checkup or two for visits 904 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,320 Speaker 1: to see family. So they're locked in because there just 905 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,239 Speaker 1: aren't enough officers to escort them. So it's awful from 906 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,799 Speaker 1: our client's perspective, Also from a lawyer's perspective, because it's 907 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,240 Speaker 1: difficult for us to communicate with our clients. Our clients 908 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,960 Speaker 1: are often not even produced a court. But also from 909 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,080 Speaker 1: the CEO's perspective, if you know, going to work on 910 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 1: a Friday morning means that there's a good chance the 911 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: person is supposed to relieve you isn't going to show 912 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 1: up because they're going to call out sick. And you 913 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:39,920 Speaker 1: know there's a good chance you're gonna be asked to 914 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 1: work a double or maybe a triple. Well, then maybe 915 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 1: you call out sick because you don't have the child 916 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,000 Speaker 1: care for Friday aftern't But why does I mean again, 917 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,799 Speaker 1: I don't assume you know the answer questions. No, But 918 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,560 Speaker 1: when you when you look at rikers and you hear 919 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 1: the stories, I think most people, including myself, who I 920 00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 1: can have this jauntest view of that system as anybody, 921 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,400 Speaker 1: But I look and I think that the stories I hear, 922 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,719 Speaker 1: I think to myself, that can't be true. Yeah, that 923 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: can't be true that you have a facility right off 924 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: the coast of It's not like this place is up 925 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:08,640 Speaker 1: in upstate New York in the middle of the farm 926 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,360 Speaker 1: country out of view. Who is responsible for the fact 927 00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,680 Speaker 1: that Rikers is this like Hall of Mirrors, It's something 928 00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,719 Speaker 1: out of a Ryan Murphy streaming series, Like how did 929 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,200 Speaker 1: it be? Who's responsible for the maintenance of Rikers and 930 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,160 Speaker 1: its staff? Yeah? And why has it been allowed to 931 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,480 Speaker 1: deteriorate to this degree? And I think you say that 932 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,480 Speaker 1: it's not in the middle of nowhere upstate, but like 933 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,520 Speaker 1: I went upstate apple picking last weekend. There's more people. 934 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,560 Speaker 1: It's easier to get up state and go apple picking 935 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 1: or whatever for for most people than to cross that bridge, 936 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:38,799 Speaker 1: go through all the levels of security and see the 937 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,239 Speaker 1: conditions on that island. Do they have very strict rules 938 00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,759 Speaker 1: about the media coming to examine that place? You know, 939 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:45,719 Speaker 1: I don't know what the media rules are. I know 940 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,400 Speaker 1: that elected officials have done some visits, but even you know, 941 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,360 Speaker 1: when they're trying to pretty it up for elected officials, 942 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,600 Speaker 1: I'm sure you read the reports like people were attempting 943 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,600 Speaker 1: suicide in front of the city council members who were 944 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: touring Rikers last fall. All I know is that we 945 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:00,800 Speaker 1: need to see a proposal which shuts down Rikers and 946 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:02,960 Speaker 1: those people are moved somewhere. And to the extent you 947 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,080 Speaker 1: can accommodate the access to council and the access to family, 948 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,800 Speaker 1: thing you do. But in words, I don't think access 949 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:10,879 Speaker 1: to council and access to family demands that they stay 950 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 1: somewhere where they're going to die now, and so I 951 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: think the plan and the guards are useless. I'm not 952 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,879 Speaker 1: a hundred percent up to date on the plan during 953 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: the de Blasi administration, but there was a plan to 954 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 1: close Rikers and revamp some of the borough based facilities. 955 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:30,399 Speaker 1: Like there already is the Manhattan Correctional Center MCC, there's 956 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,480 Speaker 1: one in Brooklyn, Brooklyn House of Detention, there's one in Queens. 957 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,120 Speaker 1: Like to make sure that there are facilities that are 958 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: state of the art near all the all the courthouses, 959 00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,600 Speaker 1: one in each borough, so that families can visit, attorneys 960 00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,719 Speaker 1: can visit. So COVID has at least what you read 961 00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: in the paper has receded significantly. I still look at 962 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,880 Speaker 1: my app and see that there's forty four thousand deaths 963 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:54,919 Speaker 1: so far this year. We've crossed over to I think 964 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,799 Speaker 1: it's one point zero six one million, six hundred thousand 965 00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,200 Speaker 1: people dead nationally, but COVID it is less of an 966 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,240 Speaker 1: issue than it is and people are back to normal 967 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,000 Speaker 1: life comparatively speaking pretty well. Do you find that in 968 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,359 Speaker 1: your work that that's that's impacting your work as well 969 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,479 Speaker 1: as the recession of the receding of COVID beneficial Yes, 970 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 1: trials are back up and happening. Our office just completed 971 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 1: one yesterday, gotten a full acquittal. And what kind of 972 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:22,760 Speaker 1: case can you say, um, assault, misdemeanor assault. Even this spring, 973 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,080 Speaker 1: people were wearing shields or witnesses were wearing shields when 974 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,520 Speaker 1: they testified. Jurors were socially distance. But now jurors are 975 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,239 Speaker 1: sitting back in the jury box, witnesses aren't wearing masks. 976 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 1: So that's good. That feels back to normal. There's still 977 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,320 Speaker 1: the backlog, and like I said, there's still the crisis 978 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,719 Speaker 1: at Wrikers, which and you know, sixteen deaths this year 979 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,239 Speaker 1: that ways. And then in addition to that, you know, 980 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,239 Speaker 1: I think public defender offices around the country sort of 981 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: reckoned with the great resignation I have here. It says, 982 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,720 Speaker 1: it says that The Times reported that hundreds of staff 983 00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,000 Speaker 1: worst have left NYCPD organizations over low pay. In the 984 00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,680 Speaker 1: last year. The Legal Aids is A lost ten percent 985 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,440 Speaker 1: of its staff, or about two people over the past 986 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,800 Speaker 1: twelve months. Brooklyn Defenders Services has lost forty attorneys or 987 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,280 Speaker 1: percent of its staff, and the New York County Defenders 988 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,400 Speaker 1: Services has lost thirty attorneys or of its staff. And 989 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,080 Speaker 1: what I'm wondering is the ones that are staying and 990 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,799 Speaker 1: they're all pretty much underpaid. The ones who stay, why 991 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,120 Speaker 1: do they stay? Why don't they quit? It is still 992 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,480 Speaker 1: the best job in the world. Like it's intellectually engaging, 993 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,400 Speaker 1: like law and criminal law. You get to make arguments 994 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,040 Speaker 1: as intellectually stimulating, you get to be and then you 995 00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,120 Speaker 1: get to be creative. You get to be creative in 996 00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,600 Speaker 1: your reason and logic and making creative arguments. You get 997 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,279 Speaker 1: to be creative. And how you present information, whether it's 998 00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,759 Speaker 1: mitigating information to a prosecutor. You know, we write pre 999 00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,880 Speaker 1: pleading memos. Sometimes we even record videos or show pictures 1000 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,759 Speaker 1: to the prosecutors or to the judges to try to 1001 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,360 Speaker 1: get better plea deals. And of course you know trial 1002 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: is you know, like a theater show, right you're telling 1003 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,160 Speaker 1: a story, you're presenting information for suasively, you're thinking about 1004 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,719 Speaker 1: how you're coming across to a jury and all that, 1005 00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,440 Speaker 1: and you get to help people to like what more 1006 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,040 Speaker 1: could you ask for? Every once in a while, I'll 1007 00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:11,160 Speaker 1: peruse you know, I wanted ads thinking am I ready 1008 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:12,880 Speaker 1: for a career change? And I just can't find anything 1009 00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,479 Speaker 1: that's that's as good and as meaningful and it's fun. 1010 00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:21,400 Speaker 1: Now crime rates are up according to the NYPD, shootings 1011 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:26,080 Speaker 1: are down, but overall crime is up from just a 1012 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,359 Speaker 1: year ago, and the media has titled us to bail 1013 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,160 Speaker 1: reform and lenient sentencing and policies. What are your thoughts 1014 00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,400 Speaker 1: about that. I mean, we're still the safest big city 1015 00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:38,160 Speaker 1: in the country statewide. I think crime levels are down 1016 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,120 Speaker 1: to pre pandemic levels. And one of the biggest drivers 1017 00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,560 Speaker 1: of crime is police arrests. So if police make a 1018 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:45,200 Speaker 1: lot of arrest it looks like crime is up. And 1019 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,200 Speaker 1: so if they're stopping and arresting people for smoking K 1020 00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,680 Speaker 1: two or giving out lots of summons is for that 1021 00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,319 Speaker 1: or summons is for driving the suspended license, they can 1022 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,400 Speaker 1: say that arrests are up. It doesn't necessarily mean that 1023 00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,279 Speaker 1: that crime is up. So it's been really disappointing to 1024 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:04,880 Speaker 1: see the media get behind and not question the police 1025 00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,200 Speaker 1: and the police unions, and unfortunately the mayor getting behind 1026 00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,480 Speaker 1: it to whenever they say that reform and criminal legal 1027 00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,240 Speaker 1: in our criminal legal system, in our criminal justice policy 1028 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,920 Speaker 1: is causing crime rates, because if you look nationwide, you 1029 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,520 Speaker 1: know there was a spike and crime post COVID in 1030 00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,720 Speaker 1: cities with conservative district attorneys and in cities with reform 1031 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,600 Speaker 1: district attorneys, and that was just sort of universal. And 1032 00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,200 Speaker 1: they're making bail a punching bag in a way that 1033 00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:36,080 Speaker 1: I don't think it's accurate or fair. So, in the 1034 00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:40,320 Speaker 1: city instituted its bail reform and you had about a 1035 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,960 Speaker 1: year of data before the pandemic hit, what did you 1036 00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,239 Speaker 1: see in terms of how bail reform worked differently. Actually, 1037 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,000 Speaker 1: the bail laws were passed in tween, they didn't go 1038 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,560 Speaker 1: into effect until January one, the pandemic hits. I think 1039 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,520 Speaker 1: everything started the course started closing down March, so we 1040 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:00,760 Speaker 1: only had two and a half months of bail reform, 1041 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,640 Speaker 1: and what we saw was that people were reunited with 1042 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,400 Speaker 1: their families, that people could fight their cases, that we 1043 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,880 Speaker 1: didn't have so many people taking jail sentences, people getting 1044 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,640 Speaker 1: the help they needed, or people being able to get 1045 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,400 Speaker 1: acquittals or lesser. Please let me actually give an example 1046 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,719 Speaker 1: to to clarify that. So when I was practicing as 1047 00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,480 Speaker 1: aligned public defender, I do training now. So when I 1048 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,479 Speaker 1: had my own full caseload ten years ago, you would 1049 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,800 Speaker 1: have people who are arrested for jumping a turnstile and 1050 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,560 Speaker 1: this demeanor, possession of drugs, whatever, bill would be set 1051 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:32,960 Speaker 1: because maybe they were a repeat offender, they were homeless, 1052 00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:34,520 Speaker 1: they didn't have a job, they didn't show up to 1053 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,720 Speaker 1: their last courtate bill would be said at five hundred dollars. 1054 00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,080 Speaker 1: They couldn't pay five hundred dollars. The case would be 1055 00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,919 Speaker 1: a journ for five days. Five days later, a judge 1056 00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:43,719 Speaker 1: would say, look, i'll give him time served. I'll give 1057 00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,200 Speaker 1: him a ten day sentence, and then the client, you know, 1058 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,719 Speaker 1: regardless of the merits of fighting the case, would say, look, 1059 00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:50,880 Speaker 1: I'd like to get out today. So we'd have a 1060 00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,359 Speaker 1: lot of people taking these ten day sentences, fifteen day 1061 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,400 Speaker 1: sentences just to get out. With bail reform, those people 1062 00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,920 Speaker 1: are now released and we can get them into a 1063 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,880 Speaker 1: rug treatment program. We can help our social workers in 1064 00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:04,839 Speaker 1: our office can help get them jobs. There's a lot 1065 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,120 Speaker 1: of city money and city agencies that are also working 1066 00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:12,319 Speaker 1: to provide alternatives incarceration. So instead on that next court date, 1067 00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,600 Speaker 1: we're saying, okay, we'll reduce the charge of something non 1068 00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,719 Speaker 1: criminal and the client is now doing, you know, a 1069 00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:21,399 Speaker 1: drug treatment program. So with bail reform, we're seeing fewer 1070 00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,560 Speaker 1: criminal convictions, fewer people in jail, and as we talked about, 1071 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,719 Speaker 1: in jail is a pretty rotten place right now, tortuous place, 1072 00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,440 Speaker 1: and more people reunited with their families. Now obviously in 1073 00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,640 Speaker 1: a city that has a significant perception of people and 1074 00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,520 Speaker 1: many of them voters who are swayed by you know, 1075 00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:44,160 Speaker 1: questionable sources of media, and they see the demonization of 1076 00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,759 Speaker 1: the bail reform thing. What do you think is the 1077 00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,680 Speaker 1: public relations key that has to be turned for people 1078 00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:53,080 Speaker 1: to understand why bail reform is in their interests, the 1079 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,560 Speaker 1: interest of the general public. The lawyer brain and me 1080 00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:58,680 Speaker 1: wants to say, well, maybe we can just provide some 1081 00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,279 Speaker 1: more data. Maybe we can just show people that, you know, 1082 00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,120 Speaker 1: we're saving money by not putting people, were not incarcerating people. 1083 00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:06,960 Speaker 1: Maybe we can show people that the vast, vast majority 1084 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,920 Speaker 1: of people are not re arrested, like over of the 1085 00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:11,960 Speaker 1: people who are released under bail reform and not re 1086 00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,720 Speaker 1: arrested a huge factor, right, But I know that data, 1087 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,880 Speaker 1: it's not how we make decision, right. I mean, I 1088 00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,680 Speaker 1: know we have calorie charts on our menus now in 1089 00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:27,919 Speaker 1: New York City, But my stomach says exactly right. So 1090 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,240 Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's up to us public defenders 1091 00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:32,960 Speaker 1: to do the work of telling our clients stories and 1092 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,279 Speaker 1: talking about the individual people and the individual lives that 1093 00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,400 Speaker 1: are that are changed because of bail reform and trying 1094 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:43,120 Speaker 1: to get people to to latch onto that. Just as 1095 00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,160 Speaker 1: we see Maryland Wanda laws being thrown out the window, 1096 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:48,480 Speaker 1: just being completely vacated, which is which is fine, That 1097 00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:51,399 Speaker 1: doesn't bother me on any level. But other what other 1098 00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:53,920 Speaker 1: laws would you like to see reformed that you think 1099 00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,160 Speaker 1: would make a real impact on the work you do. 1100 00:56:57,719 --> 00:56:59,319 Speaker 1: What are laws that you think or just need to 1101 00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,799 Speaker 1: be we visited and changed. I think there's been an 1102 00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:07,200 Speaker 1: emphasis on decriminalization of a lot of petty crimes like drugs, 1103 00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,960 Speaker 1: So I would say drug possession for personal use, just 1104 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,080 Speaker 1: all of that should be decriminalized, um completely. Yeah, And 1105 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:18,360 Speaker 1: I think there has been like against marijuana completely almost 1106 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,200 Speaker 1: completely in New York now almost when you're training people 1107 00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,720 Speaker 1: for the work you're doing, what's the one thing you 1108 00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,240 Speaker 1: want to make sure they understand about the job. What 1109 00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:29,640 Speaker 1: do you hope they really really understand that it's not 1110 00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,440 Speaker 1: about you, it's about your client. That it's really I 1111 00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:34,560 Speaker 1: say that, and we we started off by talking about 1112 00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:36,440 Speaker 1: what makes people stay. And one thing I wanted to 1113 00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:39,960 Speaker 1: address is that, you know, what makes people stay is 1114 00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,880 Speaker 1: also creating, hopefully an atmosphere where people feel supported and 1115 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:45,560 Speaker 1: people feel like they can take care of themselves. There's 1116 00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,560 Speaker 1: a lot of discussion about wellness around our country, and 1117 00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,240 Speaker 1: definitely public defender offices to you know, our office, we 1118 00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,760 Speaker 1: don't send emails after five. We encourage people to take 1119 00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:57,160 Speaker 1: their vacation time, like actively say, don't check email on vacation. 1120 00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:00,120 Speaker 1: We will be you know. So I say all that, 1121 00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,280 Speaker 1: but then I also say, it's about your client, right, 1122 00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,960 Speaker 1: It's not about your ego, It's about what's right for 1123 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:08,240 Speaker 1: your client. And I balancing that with that doesn't mean 1124 00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,800 Speaker 1: you lose yourself entirely, but whatever happens, it's your client's 1125 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:16,120 Speaker 1: decision and understanding where our clients are coming from having 1126 00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:20,600 Speaker 1: empathy with them and knowing that when you work hard 1127 00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,240 Speaker 1: it is there's a real human life at stake, and 1128 00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:25,720 Speaker 1: so it really deserves your best effort. Thank you so 1129 00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:31,200 Speaker 1: much for doing this, Oh thank you. My thanks to 1130 00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,880 Speaker 1: Attorneys Are Not a lun and Susan Church for their 1131 00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:40,320 Speaker 1: tireless efforts helping the less fortunate every day. This episode 1132 00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:44,360 Speaker 1: was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. We're 1133 00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:48,880 Speaker 1: produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our 1134 00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:53,560 Speaker 1: engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. 1135 00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:55,960 Speaker 1: I'm at like Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to 1136 00:58:56,000 --> 00:59:04,520 Speaker 1: you by my Heart Radio five Think All of the Game. 1137 00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:05,760 Speaker 1: Const