1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,720 Speaker 1: Wrong, wrong thing to do. They should not have done it. 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: I told him, I said, don't do it, because if 3 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: you do what, I'm going to tax your wine. Hello 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: and welcome to Stephanomics, the podcast that brings the global 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: economy to you. In his four years as president, I've 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: found I haven't agreed with Donald Trump on everything, but 7 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: when he laid into the French tax on the revenues 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: of digital companies a while back, he had a point. 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: The international tax system wasn't built for a world of 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: online shopping and complex global supply chains. But one country 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: acting alone isn't going to fix it. Everyone, including the French, 12 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: agrees we really need a global solution. But for that, 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: you need the US and the rest of the world 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: to agree on the best way to divide up the 15 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: profits of those big tech giants, and that is proving 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: very difficult. Indeed, in a minute, I'll be talking to 17 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: the frenchman stuck in the middle of this, the official 18 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: who has to find a way through or risk another 19 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: round of nasty US europe trade wars. Will also be 20 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: going to Abidjan in the Ivory Coast to hear about 21 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 1: the global chocolate war what it means for the price 22 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: of Hershey's kisses this Christmas. But first, a short introduction 23 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: to the battle over the future of tax from our 24 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: French economy reporter William Horrobin Mercy m. It's one a 25 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: M in the French Senate on Tuesday May two, in 26 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: the nine century Chamber, the President of the Session, Tanni Mohammed, 27 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: is submitting to a vote the world's first tax and 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: the digital revenues of multinational tech giants. Something to do 29 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: on some detexts, continue doing some delgation depends Senator. The 30 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: calm passing of the bill with only four votes against, 31 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: reflected an unquestioning support in France making tech giants pay 32 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: more tax. Then this happened. France put on a U 33 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: attacks on our companies, you know that, and wrong, wrong 34 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: thing to do. They should not have done it. They 35 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: didn't do the right thing when they start taxing our companies. 36 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: We tax our companies. They don't tax our companies. So 37 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: France did that. I told him, I said, don't do it, 38 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: because if you do it, I'm going to tax your wine. 39 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,839 Speaker 1: Weing tariff or tax or whatever you want. So yeah, 40 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: we're working on that right now. Transcend anti clash is 41 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: in fact just the tip of an iceberg. Both surface, 42 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: there is a far broader battle over the future of taxation, trade, 43 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: and the authority of nations. As the global economy turns digital, 44 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: governments see sovereignty slipping away as they struggled to tax 45 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: globe trotting firms with market capitalizations that dwarf the GDP 46 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: of most nations. Traditional firms that face the costs and 47 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: tax bills of having a physical presence are crying foul 48 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: as their custom goes elsewhere, and even the global tech 49 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: giants are voicing concern about navigating a growing thicket of 50 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: unilateral measures and punitive levees. The US has started investigations 51 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: into taxes like frances in at least ten other countries, 52 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: from the UK to Italy, India and Indonesia. The COVID 53 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: crisis has done nothing to unwind the tension. On the contrary, 54 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: locked down in their homes, consumers have moved online like 55 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: never before to work, shop, eat and entertain themselves. Meanwhile, 56 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: governments are clocking up vast debts as they bail out 57 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: bricks and mortar firms on the verge of collap Any 58 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: hope for a solution to taxation in the digital age 59 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: rides on negotiations at the o e c D, the 60 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. But there's a problem. 61 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: The talks on the rules of tax involved nearly one 62 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: hundred and forty countries and have been tracking on for years. 63 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: Among the many issues still to resolve, the most divisive 64 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: is the scope of new tax rules, with the Europeans 65 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: wanting to single out digital companies and the US demanding 66 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: no such ring fencing of firms that are in the 67 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: most part American. With no swift deal in sight, a 68 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: truce in the battle between France and the Trump administration 69 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: is about to break. The French government is resuming the 70 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: collection of its tax on digital revenues this month, and 71 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: the US is set to retaliate in early January with 72 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: taxes on one point three billion dollars of emblematic French goods, 73 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: including handbags and cosmetics. If that happens, France says the 74 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: EU must immediately retaliate all. Let's put digital tax at 75 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: the top of Joe Biden's list of problems when he 76 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: takes office to solve it and lead the bridge a 77 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: Transatlantic divide. Here's the French finance minister Bruno Lamaire, the UK, Spain, 78 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: Italy Austria have accepted to launch their own digital taxation 79 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,119 Speaker 1: because we are all aware that this is a question 80 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: of fairness. You cannot have the digital giants being less 81 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: taxes than SAMESE and than the smallest private companies euro 82 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: I really hope that this new Biden's administration will mean 83 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: a new start in the relationship between job and the 84 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: United States. Well, if we're going to get nearly a 85 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: hundred and forty countries to agree something in the next 86 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: twelve months, it's only going to be after herculean efforts 87 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: by the individual we're going to talk to now. Pascal 88 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: Saint them are, director of the Center of Attack Policy 89 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: at the a e c D in Paris. Pascal, thank 90 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: you so much for coming on Stephanomics. We had a 91 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: little we had a little bit from William Horrobin there, 92 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: But as far as your concerned, what's at stake in 93 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: these negotiations, Well, what is at stake is some form 94 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: of economic peace, in particular between the US and Europe. 95 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: The dispute is about how countries could better share the 96 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: taxation of digital companies. That's where the Europeans and not 97 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: only the Europeans the rest of the world have been 98 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: very frustrated for the past ten years, seeing these companies 99 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: are deriving a lot of profits from our markets and 100 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: we cannot tax them. And we cannot tax them because 101 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: we're stuck with rules which were designed one century ago 102 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: which prevent us from taxing companies because they are not 103 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: physically present on our market. Therefore we cannot collect anything. 104 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: These companies are making billions, and these billions were untacked 105 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: until recently. Now they may be taxed in the US, 106 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: but we want our fair share and the US in 107 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: response to that set but this profit belongs to me. 108 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: It's it's profit by American companies, and there is no 109 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: reason for me to let you tax them. And by 110 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: the way, if we find a solution, it shouldn't be 111 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: ring fans to digital companies because the problem we're facing 112 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: is a global problem for all companies. So we've been 113 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: struggling with that for the past three years. And we 114 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: have an extension, unfortunately not until the end of twenty one, 115 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: but the end of the first semester of twenty one. 116 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: So the challenge is even bigger because we need to 117 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: find consensus in the next six months basically, it just 118 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: seems like it's gonna be really difficult. Um. I mean, 119 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: I guess one question is we we've we've started to 120 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: think that tech giants, these enormous companies are sort of 121 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: bigger than any one government. I mean, can governments actually 122 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: prevail against these companies. Well, that's a good question, and 123 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: indeed there is a challenge that. Maybe The first thing 124 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: to say is that until we did a big G 125 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: twenty O city initiative known under the Depth acronym. That 126 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: was a big effort by the G twenty to try 127 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: to bring some form of tax regulation to globalization and 128 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: say multinational companies can locate their profits serious link tax 129 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: s events in a complete legal manner. And we did 130 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: change that in two thousand and fifteen. We came up 131 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: with the new set of rules, and these rules have 132 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: translated in the US tax reform and due to thousands 133 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: sixteen seventeen, the tech companies, among others it's not omitted 134 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: to tech could have an effective tax rate on their 135 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: foreign source income plus to zero. Now they are taxed 136 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: in the US at least at ten percent. So you 137 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: can see that governments can act when they want to act. 138 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: But the question which is left is how do you 139 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: share these profits? Is it taxable only in the US 140 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: or elsewhere? How you share profits of multinational companies depend 141 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: on what we call tax treaties, which are international tax instruments. 142 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: There are three thousand, five hundred instruments, and today these 143 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: instruments provide for a country to tax the foreign company 144 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: when this foreign company has a physical presence in the country. 145 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: This dates back to ninety eight brick and mortar economy. 146 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: That's what we need to change. But again, if we 147 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: change it, it shouldn't be only on tech companies. But 148 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: you may raise the same question for uton the French, 149 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, luxury company, the manufacture bag, the design, the 150 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: good French taste, right, so French good taste, So they 151 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 1: say it belongs to us. But the Chinese who buy 152 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: the bags may say, well, sorry, part of the value 153 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: creation belongs to us. So the question of how you 154 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: share the profit is not omitted to tech companies and governments. 155 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: I think if they act together, can change the rules. 156 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: So companies are not in a position to block but 157 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: it's more for governments to make the effort to try 158 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: to reach consensus, and that's not easy, especially as you 159 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: said it. We have one hundred and forty countries around 160 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: the table. If we don't get these countries agreeing on something, 161 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: the risk we face is trade tensions, trade wars, and 162 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: then you know, the French are trying to move on 163 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 1: their own and the US is retaliating, and Europe may 164 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,719 Speaker 1: retaliate to the retaliation, and that's where you end up 165 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: with the trade war, which would harm growth further. And 166 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: after COVID, we we don't need any other hurdle on 167 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: on growth. So you know, the counter factual is the 168 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: best reason to try to find an agreement. We've been 169 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: talking on this podcast about the new players and the 170 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 1: Biden administration. How do you think the Biden administration can 171 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: change this or even break the log jam. It's a 172 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: very good question, and like very good questions, there is 173 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: no answer yet. We do not know. What has happened is, however, 174 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: quite interesting and much more complex than people think. First, 175 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: when we did the Best Project back in two thousand, thirteen, 176 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: fourteen and fifteen, the Obama administration at that time said 177 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: there is no problem with digital, let's not talk about that. 178 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: We revisit that in twenty after all these measures are implemented, 179 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: So the US was very negative Obama administration. Very Paradoxically, 180 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: the Trump administration, which was not known for being multilateralists, 181 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: right said well, let's have a conversation. The US changed 182 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: its approach and kind of told the French, you want 183 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: to tax Google. You're right, you're the market, but we 184 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: want to tax your companies because we are their market. 185 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: And that's where the conversation started in two thousand and seventeen. Paradoxically, 186 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: the door being opened by the Trump administration. Now it 187 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: is true that in two thousand twenty this year, the 188 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: Trump administration has got cold feeds because the election was approaching, 189 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: because companies were not sure whether they wanted to change 190 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,599 Speaker 1: or not. And at the end of the day, I 191 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: mean progress like behind and and we didn't deliver the 192 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: solution by here and as planned. So what will the 193 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: Biden administration do. We hope that they will continue the negotiation, 194 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: that they will say we want a solution, and that 195 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: they will take some leadership to indicate what is the 196 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 1: solution they want. I think all the other countries are 197 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: ready to take what the US would tell them if 198 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: it's fair enough, and that's will But that's what we 199 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: will see. We shall see I hope soon, and we 200 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: must see it soon because we have only six months, 201 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: and after six months, countries will move unilaterally. Because it's 202 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: been yes, they've been waiting, So the Biden administration will 203 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: probably have to disclose quite soon what their position is. 204 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: This negotiation has actually got bigger and bigger, in part 205 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: because of the Trump administration's approach. Um, is it the 206 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,239 Speaker 1: case that you have to agree this whole new system 207 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: for taxing companies globally in order to resolve the digital question? 208 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 1: Or are you hopeful that maybe there's a halfway house. 209 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: There is a menu of options. One option would be 210 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: to say, what is the dispute. The dispute is on 211 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: a few highly digitalized companies, and one could say, let's 212 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: sort this out first and then take more time to 213 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: sort out the more fundamental problems of the international tax framework. 214 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: But these crosses the red line fixed by the US 215 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: so far in a bipartisan manner, which is not ring fencing. 216 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: So you have here a contradition. You could do an 217 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: easy fix, a quick fix, but these crosses redline, because 218 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: that would be just too much one way try effect 219 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: for the US. It's a one way traffic. The US 220 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: pays a check to the rest of the world. Right, 221 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: I mean you you have a free lunch on American 222 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: companies and we give a tax credit, which means that 223 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: we transfer taxing rights to you. So you can understand 224 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: why they would say that. Well, absolutely, and the US 225 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: as a fair point to say, one, why would we 226 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: be interested in paying the check to the rest of 227 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: the world when they unfairly attacked American business Because that's 228 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: the US perception. And too, we cannot really bring fens 229 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: so that's a way to do a quick fix. May 230 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: not work. Then what we could do and it wouldn't 231 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: take years, is to have a broader scope. But that's 232 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: for the US to say what they want in that scope. 233 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: Digital companies, consumer facing businesses, which was the latest position 234 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: of the US administration, whether it's the sustained engagement of 235 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: a company with the customers, with the consumers, the final 236 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: consumers on the market. That that that that would be 237 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: the area where you would you would create the new 238 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: taxing right where you would gives to the markets a 239 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: new taxing right. And that we can do, and that 240 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: we can do in the next six months because we're ready. Technically, 241 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: we're ready almost we are very well advanced and just 242 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: waiting for political equipment to press the button and get 243 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: it at and ready. We should probably we should pause 244 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: for a second to paint the scene a little bit 245 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: because people listeners who are not so familiar with the 246 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: with the O E c D. When you talk about 247 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: technical work, that is what the O E c D 248 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: is famous for. And you sit in the wonderful office. 249 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: Wonderful office is in a in a very nice part 250 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: of Paris, UH, and have tended to be very good 251 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: at technical work, not always so good at reaching fast 252 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: agreements UH and having dynamic progress on. I think you 253 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: keep the recent years it was twenty years ago. I 254 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: hope we get the the expertise and the technical point 255 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: and you've kept the nice buildings that should be said 256 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: and we get the nice building as well. Your point all, yeah, 257 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: that's so good at providing political breakthrough, it's no longer true. 258 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: Let me give you two examples. Two thousand eight, Global 259 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: French Ship Crisis two thousand eight. For the first time 260 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: the G twenty meets at the leaders level when they 261 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: say we need to put an end to bank secrecy. 262 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: The obesity delivered the end of bank secrecy in two 263 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: years time. We listed countries, we provided a standard, we 264 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: provided a multilateral convention to implement that standard. Ten years later, 265 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: where we are not a single country in the world 266 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: has bank secrecy left. Last September, eighty four million bank 267 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: accounts were exchanged Switzerland, I mean the temple of bank 268 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: secrecy exchanged more than three million bank accounts with the 269 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: countries where the people live having bank accounts in Switzerland 270 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: for a total value of ten trillion US dollars ten trillion. 271 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: That a concrete example. Second one and due to thousand twelve, 272 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: multinational companies could locate their profits wherever they wanted tax avoidance. 273 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: It was an easy game to play. We came up 274 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: with an action plan and we told the g twenty 275 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: we're going to change international tax woos. It's used to 276 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: take twenty years to change COMMA and DOT in ob 277 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: City guidelines. We did all these changes fifteen changes in 278 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: two years time. And as a result, you have hundreds 279 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: of billions of taxes which are being collected on multinational 280 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: companies which were not in the past. It is true 281 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: that on the digital project it takes more time because 282 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: it's more complex because big countries are modivided, but we're there. 283 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: We have all these people coming together, exchanging information, sharing 284 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: the same goal, which is to strengthen the attacks sovereignty 285 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: by corporation. But we'll also have I think a high 286 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: level of gorenment. The question is more of the timing. 287 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: So I think we've we've been more than just happy 288 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: technocrats in Paris. So there you have it. For for years, 289 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: I think people some people would have said, what's the 290 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: O E c D for? But but quite seriously, it 291 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: turns out this is what it can be for trying 292 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: to fix these really incredibly difficult problems that we face 293 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,959 Speaker 1: with a move to a to a digital economy. So Pascal, 294 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: where does this go from here? You've talked about the 295 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: Biden administration, You've talked about the timing. I can't help 296 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: noticing that there's been some talk about the middle of 297 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: next year and then maybe the end of next year. Realistically, 298 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: how likely is it that this is going to get 299 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: resolved in the next six or twelve months. I don't know. 300 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: There is a real level of unset and you which 301 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: makes it exciting right for observers, a bit stressing when 302 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: you're an insider. Um we we need to wait for 303 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: Biden administration to give indications, and I think they are 304 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: reflecting on that they need to make up their minds 305 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: and send a message to the rest of the world. 306 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: And it will largely depend on on their message whether 307 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: they want to play ball or not what they will 308 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: do on the on the trade front. Given that before leaving, 309 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: the Trump administration will inflict sanctions on the French. Because 310 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: the French are moving unilaterally with their digital service tax um, 311 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: we we we have a fair chance of reaching an agreement. 312 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: And at the leaders level there is the sense that 313 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: not only it is possible, but it is wishable that 314 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: we reach an agreement. And against that background we can 315 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: be optimistic that that something positive will happen, even though 316 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: we don't know yet. And and it's up for the 317 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: Biden administration to decide which direction they will they will 318 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: want to go. Countries would rather avoid the trade attensions, 319 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: especially in the post COVID environment. I mean this is 320 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: if you take some distance, this is a tiny issue 321 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: in the grand schemes of things, so we should not 322 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: have we should not harm growth for these and the 323 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 1: tax technicalities can be fixed, even though it's politically sensitive, 324 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: they must be fixed. So we are confident that we'll 325 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: move ahead and that will will have a path towards 326 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: further corporation, some form of tax regulation of globalization, which 327 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: I think is what we need. Meanwhile, it could be 328 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: handbags at dawn. I mean, we are literally having a 329 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: bare neck or fight between the US and France on 330 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: this with with the US imposing the tariffs on on handbags. 331 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: So we come we come full circle from the heights 332 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: of the digital economy to sort of basic taxes on 333 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: key products like handbags and lipsticks cosmetics, which is the 334 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: US vision of the French right bags and dipsticks. Past 335 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: canaandam Or, director of the Center for Text Policy at 336 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: oc D, thank you very much. Thank you. In a 337 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: global chocolate war, it's Hers against West Africa. That was 338 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: a headline on bloom Bog but jumped out at me 339 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: this week. We can't have a global chocolate war two 340 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: weeks before Christmas. Then I read the story and found 341 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,719 Speaker 1: out there was a lot more resting on this than 342 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: your holiday bowl of hers. She's kisses or chocolate orange. 343 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 1: Leander Basson Pierre is our Ivory Coast reporter and she's 344 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: been covering this story and she's joining me now from 345 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: Abidjan in the Ivory Coast leanne It is quite complicated 346 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: this story. We should just start with the basics. Where 347 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: you're sitting. Ivory Coast in West Africa is where a 348 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: lot of the world's coco is produced and the gharner 349 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: produces most of the rest. Tell me first how these 350 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: two countries have tried to use the hour they have 351 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: in this particular crucial bit of the global economy. And 352 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: while we've ended up talking about war, well, they've tried 353 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: many times before to try to keep the price in 354 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: their favor, but it hasn't really worked until last year 355 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: when they decided to add a four hundred dollar premium 356 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: on top of the price of the on on top 357 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 1: of the futures price, that is, and that came into 358 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: effect from the first of October, which was the start 359 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: of the main crop harvest in both these two countries. 360 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: And as you rightly said, these two countries supply nearly 361 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: seventy percent of the world's cocoast. So they saying, while 362 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: all these multinationals are benefiting from this one hundred billion 363 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: dollar industry, poor farmers in Ivory Coast and Ghana are 364 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: barely seeing or barely able to make ends meet, and 365 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: they're not seeing the fruits of their labor. They don't 366 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: even know what the in product actually tastes like. I 367 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: guess it's it's fair to say that the Hersheys and 368 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 1: all these big chocolate producers didn't didn't like this very much. 369 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: But what's actually happened, Why is it why are we 370 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: now talking about war? Well, what happened was that when 371 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: they initially announced this, which was in the middle of 372 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: the last year UM, there was obviously some some discussions 373 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: that took place with chocolate companies, with big exporters as well. 374 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,479 Speaker 1: All of them actually came and board saying yes they 375 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: World by Coco at that price when it comes in 376 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: from the first of October to Everyone was on board. 377 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: They were on board with the fact that that needs 378 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: to happen. But nobody really thought that COVID nineteen was 379 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: going to happen and that they would be people where 380 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: people would be eating less chocolates and sales would would slump, 381 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: and so nobody really took that into the equation. And 382 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: then what happened was that they needed to I guess, 383 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: try to find a way to UM to basically keep 384 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: their price is in check. Given that they had lost 385 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: quite a lot in sales, and that happened. And so 386 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: what happened is that they revisited this premium that they 387 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: had promised to pay from the start of the season, 388 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: which was on the first of October, and tried to 389 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: inverge his case. They went and actually brought some some 390 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: beings directly from the exchange in New York and not 391 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: in the physical market. And many companies were surprised by 392 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: this move. The governments of Ivory Coast and Gharner, they said, 393 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: you know, what they did means that they against the 394 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: four hundred dollar premium, which is called the Living Income 395 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: differential or l I d UM. They said it was 396 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: a sign in the in the wrong direction that they 397 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: had agreed to it, that they had spoken about it significantly. 398 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: So Ivory Coast and Ghana have suspended the sustainability programs, 399 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: which obviously is going to hurt the farmers that are 400 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: involved in those and the workers who are involved in 401 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: those pro graund So is that someone say that's a 402 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: bit counterproductive, that you're hurting hurting people on the ground 403 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: to to punish her. She's while things have been moving 404 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: quite swiftly, the story is very dynamic, and so we 405 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: had on the November we had the governments of Ivory 406 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: Coast and Gharner saying that they have suspended her she 407 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: sustainability programs in any other company that's involved with any 408 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: sustainability programs that her she is involved in as well. 409 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: So that implicated quite a number of different companies, and 410 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: by the end of that week on December four, they've 411 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: been came to an agreement her she been recommitted to 412 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: paying the premium FO premium for the season. There is 413 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: obviously a bit of history here, and it's the sustainability 414 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: programs I guess are important for her she and I 415 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: should say there's some other big companies who are involved 416 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: in this because there's been this tradition where they've been 417 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: accused of being involved with child labor and deforestation everything. 418 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: So there's there's quite a lot on the line for 419 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: these companies in terms of their reputation. Absolutely, and so 420 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: I think that many of them have been very quick 421 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: to to respond to UH in the statement that the 422 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: Iborian regulator had put out on December fourth saying they 423 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: had old for the suspension or suspended their sustainability programs. 424 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: So they reacted very quickly, as you said earlier, is 425 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks before Christmas will have other holidays 426 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: were chocolate is essential coming up next year, and so 427 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: it is something that they want to try to find 428 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: a solution too, very quickly. And you know it's they 429 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: need each other ivre coasts, they need buy Ivery Coast 430 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: and Gardner, they need buias for their coco beans, and 431 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 1: these chocolate companies need coco. It's not that they could 432 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: suddenly go and source all their coco needs from elsewhere 433 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: in the world. These two governments, or these two countries 434 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: at least do make up in the least of global 435 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: coco production. And chocolate is not just for Christmas, I 436 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: would argue it's essential most of the time, not just 437 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: on holidays. I guess if you think of the end 438 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: results of this in trying to put a premium on 439 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: the price trying to sustain the incomes of farmers, if 440 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: we end up with less cocoa being bought and god forbid, 441 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: people actually eating less chocolate, aren't the farmers going to 442 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: end up poorer as a result of this. That is 443 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: a fine balance that's both countries and the chocolate companies 444 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: need to try to strike and in fact, there was 445 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: a there was a huge concern that with this increase 446 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: in the price that it would incentivize more farmers to 447 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: go out and plant cocoa, that they would go out 448 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: and do that in protected forest areas um And so 449 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: that is an essential element of the story that they 450 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: these two countries managed to keep their production in check, 451 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: that they let their farmers know that, you know, it's 452 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: not going to benefit anybody if there's going to be 453 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: too much coco in the markets, that they need to 454 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: cap it at a certain amount so that they can 455 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: keep the prices where they need them to be. So 456 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: it is a fine balance that they need to strike. 457 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: And at all starts worth actually the farmer and educating 458 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: them on what needs to be done. Getting down to 459 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: that small farmer that has you know, half a hectary, 460 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: one or two hectares, to explain to him you cannot 461 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: go into predicted bus because the price is high, that 462 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: if there is the surplus of cocoa, it could indeed 463 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: bring the price down. Well, Leanne, thank you so much. 464 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: Where do you think this is going? I mean, do 465 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: we actually have to worry about chocolate shortages this Christmas? 466 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: Next Christmas? Anytime soon. Um, I've just been out into 467 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: the field and there is a lot of cocoa beans. 468 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: At least it doesn't seem like there's going to be 469 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: much of a shortage in Ivory coast at least. Whether 470 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: they will be able to maintain the price and good 471 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: relations with these chocolate tears and and keep the momentum 472 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: going with this project with with Ghana, we just had 473 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: an elections this week, so they will continue the conversation 474 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: around getting the best prices for their farmers and you know, 475 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: keeping this joint effort up. I think that they standard 476 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: a bit of chance of getting the best value for 477 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: their products for their farmers. When we talk about grassroots 478 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: reporting on this program, we are not kidding. We are 479 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: actually going out looking at the roots of the coco 480 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: and it looks okay at least from Ivory case right now. 481 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: Leander Bassam Pierre sitting in ather Jam, thank you so much, pleasure, 482 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Stephonomics. We'll be back next week 483 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: with more on all things economic. And remember you can 484 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: always find us on the Bloomberg Terminal website, app or 485 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, and you can get a 486 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: lot more news and analysis from Bloomberg Economics by follow 487 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: at Economics on Twitter. This episode was produced by Magnus Hendrickson, 488 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: with special thanks to William Horrabin, Bascal Saint dement leand 489 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: de Basson. Pierre and her colleagues Isis Almeida and Baudela Mieux, 490 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: Lucy Meekin as the executive producer of Stephanomics and the 491 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: head of Bloomberg Podcast is Francesco Levi.