Speaker 1: Hi guys, Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I
Speaker 1: will be your host Emily Simpson with my co host
Speaker 1: Shane and we don't really have any updates on any
Speaker 1: other cases, but I thought what we could do is
Speaker 1: at the top of every podcast episode is we just
Speaker 1: kind of talk a little bit about the crime going
Speaker 1: on in the week, some interesting things. So I don't
Speaker 1: know if you've heard of this, but there is a
Speaker 1: recent case that popped up that I found truly disturbing
Speaker 1: yet interesting. It's Kimberly's Sullivan. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: heard this, but so Waterbury Police and fire responded to
Speaker 1: Kimberly Sullivan's home around eight forty two pm on February seventeenth,
Speaker 1: So this just recently happened. Sullivan was able to evacuate
Speaker 1: her home while her step son remained inside and was
Speaker 1: later assisted out by Waterbury firefighters. This is what the
Speaker 1: police said. The police report the man was suffering from
Speaker 1: smoke inhalation and exposure to the fire. According to the department,
Speaker 1: her step son, who is five foot nine, thirty two
Speaker 1: years of logo that was in there for twenty years.
Speaker 1: He weighed only sixty eight pounds sixty eight pounds. First
Speaker 1: of all, I think our sons that are ten way
Speaker 1: around fifty five to sixty pounds.
Speaker 2: No, I can't even imagine.
Speaker 1: And they are I don't even know how tall are they.
Speaker 1: They're not even five feet tall, four feet and they're
Speaker 1: tiny for their age and they're ten. So you're talking
Speaker 1: about a five foot nine, thirty two year old that
Speaker 1: weighs sixty eight pounds. So, while he was being treated,
Speaker 1: the step son told the first responders that he intentionally
Speaker 1: set the fire in his upstairs room using a lighter,
Speaker 1: hand sanitizer and paper.
Speaker 2: Oh oh smart. It was a little risky, but it
Speaker 2: was smart. He was trying to escape.
Speaker 1: It was yeah, he was trying to escape. He stayed in.
Speaker 2: She just smothered her with a sanitizer, Yeah, throwing her
Speaker 2: out the window.
Speaker 1: Well, that was he should have furthered his plan. I
Speaker 1: wanted my freedom. He then alleged that Sullivan, who is
Speaker 1: his stepmom, had been held holding him captive for over
Speaker 1: twenty years since he was eleven years old. So the
Speaker 1: step mom was arrested wins March twelfth and held on
Speaker 1: a three hundred thousand dollars bond over allegations of crimes
Speaker 1: against her step son. She is accused of first degree assault,
Speaker 1: second degree kidnapping, first degree unlawful restraint, first degree reckless endangerment,
Speaker 1: and cruelty to persons, and she has denied all of
Speaker 1: these allegations. She posted bond last Thursday. She appeared briefly
Speaker 1: in Superior Court on Thursday and declined to make any
Speaker 1: statements before the judge and denied prosecutor's request to place
Speaker 1: her under house arrest. Sullivan will be allowed to travel
Speaker 1: within Connecticut where this took place, though she will have
Speaker 1: to keep in close regular contact with probation officers. She
Speaker 1: denies all of the allegations. My first thought when I
Speaker 1: was reading this is where is the dad? But then
Speaker 1: as I further investigated read more about the story, the
Speaker 1: dad had died and then the step son was left
Speaker 1: living with the step mother. So the steps on lived
Speaker 1: on what place described as a back storage space on
Speaker 1: the second floor of the residence. It was an eight
Speaker 1: foot by nine foot space that had angled ceilings with
Speaker 1: no heat in the winter and no air conditioning in
Speaker 1: the summer. He said that a lock had always been
Speaker 1: on the outside of his door, and it evolved from
Speaker 1: a chain to a padlock and eventually to one of
Speaker 1: those slide bolt locks. So the dad died in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four, which means, yeah, the father was a part
Speaker 1: of this, so the step home was just continuing on
Speaker 1: with the way that this child apparently had been treated.
Speaker 1: So following his father's death, the step son would only
Speaker 1: be let out as this is what he alleges that
Speaker 1: he was only allowed out one minute a day to
Speaker 1: let the family dog out into the backyard, and that
Speaker 1: he was locked in this small room between twenty two
Speaker 1: to twenty four hours a day. He also alleges that
Speaker 1: he was only fed two sandwiches and given two small
Speaker 1: water bottles. I guess that's per day, two sandwiches and
Speaker 1: two small water bottles, and that he was forced to
Speaker 1: use newspapers to dispose of like when you ask go
Speaker 1: the bathroom. In order to even bathe himself, he was
Speaker 1: forced to ration the drinking water he was given, and
Speaker 1: he was not provided any soaper shampoo. He hadn't had
Speaker 1: a haircut in three years, his only He claims that
Speaker 1: his only real connection to the outside world was a
Speaker 1: radio that apparently was kept outside of his bedroom, so
Speaker 1: he has a calendar in a radio. That's how he
Speaker 1: keeps track of time. And for his education, I guess
Speaker 1: he's only reading at a fourth grade level, but he
Speaker 1: was given three to four books a year, and he
Speaker 1: told police that he used the books and a dictionary
Speaker 1: to ultimately educate himself. He also told police that he
Speaker 1: knew hand sanitizer was flammable because he had read about that.
Speaker 1: So that's where he came up with the plan to
Speaker 1: start the fire, so that the fire police so that
Speaker 1: the fire.
Speaker 2: Is very lucky because he could have very well been trapped.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he did get lucky that he was rescued.
Speaker 2: I'm glad to do that.
Speaker 1: There was a former principle of this elementary school where
Speaker 1: he used to go to, and the principal said that
Speaker 1: there were concerns raised by teachers and him. He claims
Speaker 1: that we knew it, we reported it, and not a
Speaker 1: damn thing was done. That's the tragedy of this whole thing.
Speaker 1: So apparently this kid when he was in school, when
Speaker 1: he did go to school, that he was extremely small
Speaker 1: and thin, and when teachers asked him questions, he told
Speaker 1: them that he wasn't allowed to have food at home.
Speaker 1: He said that teachers would even bring food in for
Speaker 1: the student. After noticing that he was stealing food and
Speaker 1: he was eating out of the garbage, the principal told
Speaker 1: a news team in Connecticut or whatever this news cycle
Speaker 1: is that they were on that he and his teachers.
Speaker 1: The team made multiple calls to the boy's stepmom, Kimberly Sullivan,
Speaker 1: and also called the Department of Children and Families at
Speaker 1: least twenty times by the fifth grade.
Speaker 2: What does it take to get their attention?
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Apparently the fire department apparently.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's his last recourse was that he had to
Speaker 1: set a fire fire chief.
Speaker 2: My goodness.
Speaker 1: So by the fifth grade, he never came back to school,
Speaker 1: and the teachers and the principill never saw him again.
Speaker 1: And now this elementary school is closed. But I mean,
Speaker 1: there's over twenty calls to DCF and nothing happens.
Speaker 2: Thank goodness. He's hopefully you can transition.
Speaker 1: Why how do you if you're sixty eight pounds, you're
Speaker 1: completely malnourished, how do you recover from that? Is that blossful?
Speaker 2: I would imagine it is. But it's going to take time,
Speaker 2: and you can't just like pick out the first day
Speaker 2: you have to slowly introduce foods and stuff.
Speaker 1: Okay, So the question is did anyone else know? And
Speaker 1: apparently the man said that in addition to the stepmother
Speaker 1: and his father knowing about what was going on, he
Speaker 1: has two half sisters and a late grandmother that we're
Speaker 1: aware of his captivity of the boy man his name
Speaker 1: is not given out, so we don't know what his
Speaker 1: name is. It's kept private, but he claims that his
Speaker 1: late father would occasionally let him out of his room
Speaker 1: for longer periods to watch television with him or do
Speaker 1: yard work together. He said the last time he had
Speaker 1: actually left the property altogether was around age fourteen or fifteen,
Speaker 1: and that was to dump yard waste with his father,
Speaker 1: and that his captivity and restraint got even worse after
Speaker 1: his dad's death. When asked why he didn't speak to
Speaker 1: anyone about his experience, the man cited that the threat
Speaker 1: of longer lockdowns and further withholding of food, and the
Speaker 1: false hope that his stepmom would let him out more
Speaker 1: if he earned her trust. So I guess he didn't
Speaker 1: speak out because he was worried that there were Well, obviously,
Speaker 1: if there's teachers and principles that know about it, and
Speaker 1: they're making phone calls and nothing happens. This man has
Speaker 1: no faith in humanity at all, so it's not like
Speaker 1: he's going to go tell someone because he doesn't feel
Speaker 1: like there's any type of And he knows that his
Speaker 1: half siblings know, and he knows that his grandmother knows,
Speaker 1: and he knows that his dad was involved in it.
Speaker 1: This man was failed by everyone, not only his family,
Speaker 1: but society. The stepmom has an attorney, and the attorney
Speaker 1: tells people that his client, Kimberly Sullivan, was not the
Speaker 1: one making choices about how our step son should be racing,
Speaker 1: that it was ultimately the late husband and the boy
Speaker 1: who was the boy's father. However, as for the victim's
Speaker 1: allegation that he is on now.
Speaker 2: Because she got caught, right, I mean, he died in
Speaker 2: twenty four Why didn't she do anything? Why does she
Speaker 2: speak up to her husband then? I mean whatever, Why
Speaker 2: wasn't her the loser? They just need to put her
Speaker 2: in a freaking hole and give her, you know, two
Speaker 2: small bottles of water for twenty years. That's what they
Speaker 2: need to do.
Speaker 1: I agree. So the stepmamas do back in court on
Speaker 1: March twenty six D hands her phony charges of assault
Speaker 1: in the first degree, kidnapping, and all those other charges
Speaker 1: that we went through. So we will see what happens
Speaker 1: with this case. I think her defense is pretty weak.
Speaker 1: It's basically like, oh, it was it was the dad.
Speaker 1: I was just following through with his wishes. But this
Speaker 1: is a terrible, terrible story.
Speaker 2: Being named Karen doesn't help. Yes, yeah, that's another person
Speaker 2: making that name look bad.
Speaker 1: All right, So that was an awful story, but that
Speaker 1: was the I'm not going to happen recently in the news,
Speaker 1: which it is compelling. It is interesting to talk about.
Speaker 1: I do feel sorry for him, and hopefully he gets
Speaker 1: the help that he needs and he can move on
Speaker 1: and be a functioning member of society. But I don't
Speaker 1: know how you do. Not only is he physically impaired,
Speaker 1: but socially mentally. Oh I don't know.
Speaker 2: That guy doesn't know you? No? Was it twenty years?
Speaker 2: My goodness?
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's move on to another enlightening, some
Speaker 1: more positive. Well, it is crime, so it's not going
Speaker 1: to be we're not going to be talking about rainbows
Speaker 1: and unicorns. So we are doing crime. Let's move on
Speaker 1: to the Ruby Frankie case. Now, Shane did not want
Speaker 1: to cover this case. He does not like to talk
Speaker 1: about child abuse. And if you've been following the case
Speaker 1: or you saw the new Hulu documentary, you do know
Speaker 1: that Ruby Frankie was in prison for abusing her two
Speaker 1: youngest children is in prison. She's in prison currently for
Speaker 1: abusing her two younger children. I think what's interesting about
Speaker 1: this case and what there's a lot of discussion that
Speaker 1: we can go through, is that it happened in Utah,
Speaker 1: in Springville, which Shane and I used to live in Utah,
Speaker 1: very near Springville. She's an LDS mom, it's an LDS family.
Speaker 1: A lot of her I think rationale or reasoning for
Speaker 1: doing the things that she does. She uses religion, and
Speaker 1: I just think it's an interesting discussion to work our
Speaker 1: way through. So you, being an active member of the
Speaker 1: LDS church, I think that.
Speaker 2: It's nothing to do with it. I just think you
Speaker 2: being a female her thoughts.
Speaker 1: No, I'm saying that I think you can add some
Speaker 1: insight into the church's.
Speaker 2: The insight is she didn't listen to any of the
Speaker 2: teachings and she went did her own thing and was evil.
Speaker 2: That's what that's it. There's no like, well, that's it.
Speaker 2: There is no justification, there is no teaching, there's nothing
Speaker 2: that would lead her to think this other than she's
Speaker 2: just a mess up person. Selfish. I saw one episode.
Speaker 2: She's awful. Chaaw she's a terrible woman.
Speaker 1: Chasaw one episode.
Speaker 2: That's a terrible much to take to do.
Speaker 1: All right, Ruby Frankie, let's just give you a little
Speaker 1: background in case you don't know the case and you
Speaker 1: haven't watched the series. But Ruby Frankie is an American
Speaker 1: convicted child abuser and former family vlogger who ran the
Speaker 1: now defunct YouTube channel eight Passengers. That was called eight
Speaker 1: Passengers because she and her husband Kevin have six children,
Speaker 1: so there's the eight passengers. She was born in Utah
Speaker 1: in January. She was actually born on my birthday. It
Speaker 1: was January eighteenth of nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 2: Oh relate? Can you relate?
Speaker 1: Then you explain to us her thinking, I don't know,
Speaker 1: she's a Capricorn. That's all I know. Ruby grew up
Speaker 1: with three sisters and started a large family of her
Speaker 1: own after marrying Kevin, who was formerly a professor of
Speaker 1: engineering at BYU. First of all, can we just before
Speaker 1: we get into this further. Can we just talk about
Speaker 1: how the husband is a very intelligent, educated man, and
Speaker 1: I think we should just remember that because we're gonna
Speaker 1: get that entirely intelligent, well book intelligence.
Speaker 2: He did all the proper steps to build a family.
Speaker 2: And that's what's sad is maybe I'm getting ahead. But
Speaker 2: six kids, they all look healthy. Husband who's working, a
Speaker 2: mom who has an opportunity to be with. She wanted
Speaker 2: to be a stay at home runer, right loving yea,
Speaker 2: not everyone that, It's what she loved. So she's she's
Speaker 2: able to fulfill her dreams. They live in you know
Speaker 2: what is a nice state, They have a home, they
Speaker 2: have all these things. And then she builds a YouTube
Speaker 2: channel in which she wanted she makes good money that
Speaker 2: way to supplement her husband's income. I mean, they had
Speaker 2: all these opportunities and then she freaking screwed it up. Well,
Speaker 2: I you know, it's all those people that don't have
Speaker 2: the opportunities and wish they could, and she screwed it up,
Speaker 2: all right.
Speaker 1: The Frankie shot to social media started with the YouTube
Speaker 1: channel eight Passengers, which Ruby started back in twenty fifteen,
Speaker 1: and it was to chronicle the life of her wholesome
Speaker 1: Mormon family in Utah. She eventually ended up with two
Speaker 1: point five million subscribers more than a billion views, which
Speaker 1: is insane to think about. YEA, not easy to do that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm on TV. I can't even get that
Speaker 1: many follow the family earned up to follow her footsteps.
Speaker 1: I'm not thank you for that warning. The family earned
Speaker 1: up to one hundred thousand a month at their peak.
Speaker 1: That's what Kevin says in the docu series, that they
Speaker 1: were at their peak, they were earning up to one
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars a month. The videos were a window
Speaker 1: into her life, showing a typical Mormon suburban family, but
Speaker 1: some moments raised eyebrows. There were a couple of moments
Speaker 1: that she she uploaded and I think what she did
Speaker 1: not realize and this is what I'm also. I've also
Speaker 1: read a lot of Sherry. Sherry Frankie's the Oldest Daughter,
Speaker 1: and I've I've read her. She wrote a memoir and
Speaker 1: I read most of it. I'm almost done. But Sherry
Speaker 1: the Oldest basically says that whatever is in Ruby was
Speaker 1: always there. This this narcissism and egotism and all the
Speaker 1: things they were innately in this woman, and then the
Speaker 1: child abuse was something that was also there, Like she
Speaker 1: was not a good person, she did not have a
Speaker 1: good relationship with her mom her whole life. It's not
Speaker 1: like there was something that happens.
Speaker 2: It's not like she was a wholehearted like saint right
Speaker 2: and everything was great and yeah, yeah, but call it
Speaker 2: what you want. It's terrible.
Speaker 1: So there were some there were some videos at first
Speaker 1: that started to raise eyebrows. It's so For example, in
Speaker 1: one video, she could be seen telling her sons that
Speaker 1: they would lose the privilege to eat dinner if they
Speaker 1: continued play fighting. In another one, you can't do that.
Speaker 2: You can't punish with food.
Speaker 1: I know. I don't understand that. Yeah, I don't understand that.
Speaker 1: Thinking that's where I want.
Speaker 2: To like, that's like, let's punish her with food. Let's
Speaker 2: put her in prison and say you don't get any
Speaker 2: food because you didn't sweep your floor or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's terrible. In another, it's hard for me
Speaker 2: to listen to this stuff.
Speaker 1: I know what you're gonna have to because I need
Speaker 1: your opinion. In another, she said that her six year
Speaker 1: old needed to go hungry after forgetting to take her
Speaker 1: lunch to school. I actually Share actually elaborates on this
Speaker 1: in her book, and she says that what happened was
Speaker 1: the teacher called Ruby and said, your daughter forgot to
Speaker 1: bring her lunch to school. Can you bring her lunch?
Speaker 1: And she said to the teacher, absolutely not. She needs
Speaker 1: to just she needs to starve, basically, like that's her
Speaker 1: way of learning to be responsible is to go hungry.
Speaker 1: And so that was a lot of her A lot
Speaker 1: of her thinking, according to Sherry, was that the mom
Speaker 1: made it as if the kids had to earn her love.
Speaker 1: That was it wasn't just given.
Speaker 2: And you know, I bet you that was really all. Well, yeah,
Speaker 2: I guess if that's the way she was. But I
Speaker 2: bet she also used that disciplinary style to get what
Speaker 2: she wanted on camera, right, because I saw some videos
Speaker 2: where she was like, pretend to be happy, make it
Speaker 2: like you you're happy.
Speaker 1: Just fake it, breake it right.
Speaker 2: Don't she fake that you don't have kids and leave.
Speaker 1: But the video that did the most damage was posted
Speaker 1: in twenty two. This is when her son Chad, this
Speaker 1: is interesting that this is the downfall of Ruby Frankie
Speaker 1: was that she's such a narcissist that she did not
Speaker 1: even she wasn't even cognizant that what he was saying
Speaker 1: in the video was bad.
Speaker 2: Well, she probably, like you said, with Blake Lively around
Speaker 2: a bunch of yes people. Yeah, you have all these
Speaker 2: people who follow her because she did portray a beautiful
Speaker 2: family right, and that beautiful home right, like meaning the
Speaker 2: living right and the interactions and all that. Right, So
Speaker 2: people were following her authentically like, oh, wow, this is great.
Speaker 2: I can learn from her. She's you know, inspiring. And
Speaker 2: then so she probably got really consumed like, oh, I
Speaker 2: could do whatever I want. Like she didn't realize like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, some people don't like this, and people don't
Speaker 2: like that. It's just like, oh, everyone loves me, so
Speaker 2: everything I do is awesome. Everything I touched her instack
Speaker 2: gold exactly.
Speaker 1: And that's what had been happening up until this point.
Speaker 1: So they got canceled in twenty twenty with one post,
Speaker 1: which is crazy to think about, but one post.
Speaker 2: Even did I see that post? Is that that one
Speaker 2: that was awful?
Speaker 1: This is what she was?
Speaker 2: Oh, go ahead, sorry, let me just suppose yes, it'll
Speaker 2: make fun of it.
Speaker 1: Okay, the post wasn't twenty twenty and This is when
Speaker 1: her son, Chad, revealed that his bedroom had been taken
Speaker 1: away for seven months and that he had been sleeping
Speaker 1: on a small beam bag and this is in the
Speaker 1: basement after playing pranks on his sibling. The tone of
Speaker 1: their discussion was light between Ruby and Chad, with the
Speaker 1: story drawing giggles from Frankie and her child, but many
Speaker 1: viewers were disturbed by the incident and they which prompted
Speaker 1: petitions and tiktoks to be made against the family.
Speaker 2: I discrewed a little bit. I didn't find him to
Speaker 2: be chuckling. She did. He was rolling his eyes. He
Speaker 2: was not He was not giving in. He was like yeah,
Speaker 2: what like he like she was like, oh hell yeah
Speaker 2: it was a while, and he goes, yeah, seven months
Speaker 2: and then she's just like giggle and laugh and he
Speaker 2: was not having it. Well yeah, I wouldn't say he
Speaker 2: spoke up and told this, but he was not making
Speaker 2: light of it. And I think that's what touched the
Speaker 2: viewers is if he laughed, if he chuckled, if he
Speaker 2: kind of made it like, you know, this is how
Speaker 2: we operate, people would have questioned it, But I don't
Speaker 2: know if they would have canceled it would have been
Speaker 2: on alert. But he was not happy sitting there talking
Speaker 2: about it. He was not okay. And I think that
Speaker 2: resonated with people like, oh my gosh, she thinks it's
Speaker 2: funny and it's not. Well.
Speaker 1: With one video, Ruby managed to completely she creates a downfall.
Speaker 2: Think goodness.
Speaker 1: She posted that their entire YouTube channel because sponsors pulled out,
Speaker 1: brand deals pulled out, no one wanted to be associated
Speaker 1: with her. She lost a ton of subscribers, so she
Speaker 1: lost everything basically that she had built with just.
Speaker 2: Actually wanted that out because that video was posted. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it exposed her, but then now it probably made it
Speaker 2: worse for the kids because then she goes off in
Speaker 2: whatever direction she's going, right, Whereas if she didn't, maybe
Speaker 2: it would have been the same crappy abuse.
Speaker 1: You're saying. It was just like a worse Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: let me just write. Let me just I just want
Speaker 1: to read this little passage about vlogging, because I did.
Speaker 1: I wasn't aware of this, but Sherry, the oldest daughter,
Speaker 1: in her book says that in my church, which is
Speaker 1: LDS were encouraged to document our lives, meticulously, creating a
Speaker 1: roadmap for future generations to understand their roots, and it
Speaker 1: seemed as though the Internet was just an extension of that,
Speaker 1: another way in which to do the Lord's work. So
Speaker 1: this is why I didn't really realize this. Maybe you
Speaker 1: knew this, but a lot of LDS families do vlogging.
Speaker 2: Well. Diaries are encouraged to document your life, your journey,
Speaker 2: for future generations, for your offspring, for your kids. Okay,
Speaker 2: then how much would you love it if your grandma
Speaker 2: had documented in a diary all of her ups and
Speaker 2: downs and her thoughts and feelings, and then you found
Speaker 2: it today? How would you like that you'd be reading that?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, that would be I mean, that would be
Speaker 1: a wealth of information that would be so much interesting.
Speaker 2: She's wrong by not doing it, but how how awesome
Speaker 2: that would be?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: That's that's what's encouraged.
Speaker 1: But my question is, because you're saying in the LDS
Speaker 1: faith it is encouraged to journal and to keep diaries
Speaker 1: for future generations. But is vlogging just an extension of
Speaker 1: that because.
Speaker 2: We're in a digital age, I, without knowing for certain,
Speaker 2: I don't think there's anything saying go vlog It's it's journaling, Okay.
Speaker 1: But what's your what's your take on vlogging. I mean,
Speaker 1: what do you think because Sherry, the daughter, the oldest daughter,
Speaker 1: has spoken and you're tall like she's gone before the.
Speaker 2: Well, I think with involving children, if you want to vlog,
Speaker 2: then you do so. Like let's say, let's say you
Speaker 2: want to do a cooking show, right and you want
Speaker 2: to just experience and I know, let's make belief for
Speaker 2: a moment that you cook, okay, and then you vlog
Speaker 2: and you're sharing and you're loving and it's their hobby.
Speaker 2: And then the kids are incidnolog to that. So they
Speaker 2: come and they try the food or they help you cook.
Speaker 2: But really you're the focus or the contents. But when
Speaker 2: you start involving them or it's their personalities, it's them contributing,
Speaker 2: it's them having to interact, and then you're then you're
Speaker 2: forcing their interaction. That's where it's a problem. Well, if
Speaker 2: they're just in the background and they're just by that,
Speaker 2: you know, uh, adjacent, Yeah, that's fine, but that's.
Speaker 1: Not the way her channel was. So her channel was
Speaker 1: just revolved around the kids in their lives. She also
Speaker 1: created a lot of scenarios that I think I think
Speaker 1: she went out of bounds where she was talking about
Speaker 1: like shopping for a brawl with her daughter, or like
Speaker 1: their first period, or like you know, waxing Sherry's eyebrow,
Speaker 1: And she accidentally waxed one of her eyebrows off and
Speaker 1: then posted it because she thought it was fun.
Speaker 2: It did it on purpose, probably, I mean, I'm sure
Speaker 2: she did.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't It wasn't even documenting their family as
Speaker 1: a real family. It was creating scenarios.
Speaker 2: He got expelled and she posted that everyone.
Speaker 1: Yes, he got expelled. So Chad, the oldest son, got
Speaker 1: expelled from school. I don't remember what it was for,
Speaker 1: but I don't think it was for anything. It was
Speaker 1: probably for like.
Speaker 2: I remember, something on him. So he get expelled, something
Speaker 2: to talk about. But then he got expelled.
Speaker 1: And this is how Jody Hildebrant comes into their lives.
Speaker 1: Because Chad gets expelled. She Ruby the mom thinks that
Speaker 1: her son needs all this help and therapy and attention
Speaker 1: because he was expelled from school. So she is referred
Speaker 1: to Jody Hildebrant, who is who is someone that had
Speaker 1: been counseling Mormon couples and families in Utah. Now this
Speaker 1: Hilda Brand Jody Hildebrant had established this therapy type of
Speaker 1: I don't even know what it is, self help type
Speaker 1: of thing called Connections, and she established it in two
Speaker 1: thousand and seven.
Speaker 2: And what's her background, Well.
Speaker 1: I believe she was was.
Speaker 2: She married, Well she was married children.
Speaker 1: Okay, well she was married, but she was divorced and
Speaker 1: then apparently she had children who were estranged from her.
Speaker 1: Sounds quified to me why people trust her like a guru.
Speaker 1: Like people were obsessed with her and her teaching.
Speaker 2: It'd be like you call him mechanic and he's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I can't be there until Tuesday because my car keeps
Speaker 2: breaking down. Yeah, I'm not going to hire you. So
Speaker 2: why would you hire these people that? Well, first of all,
Speaker 2: they met I have known the background.
Speaker 1: Well, I think a lot of people did, but I
Speaker 1: think they overlooked it. This is where this is where
Speaker 1: the line of religion and fanatics gets blurred, because I
Speaker 1: would say someone like Jody Hildebrandt use the religion in
Speaker 1: a fanatical way where it was very extreme, right, And
Speaker 1: I think you can pull something from religion and then
Speaker 1: just make it so absolute and so black and white,
Speaker 1: and so this is the truth that it's damaging and
Speaker 1: that's the kind of person that she was. So her
Speaker 1: service is known for its courses on relationships and parenting,
Speaker 1: which some former clients say are rooted in the principles
Speaker 1: of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
Speaker 1: And I think rooted is a loose term there, because
Speaker 1: people can take any religion and anything in a religion
Speaker 1: and make it so extreme, but then use religion as
Speaker 1: a rationale or to reason, to reason why they're saying
Speaker 1: or doing what they want. So there were some former client.
Speaker 2: Religion or not, she's a piece of crap, and they
Speaker 2: did a bunch of terrible things to their kids. So
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not like if you have another pan Okay,
Speaker 2: like this Karen Reid that locked her thirty two year
Speaker 2: old or whatever kid.
Speaker 1: Karen read is a whole different case.
Speaker 2: I know, it's a different case.
Speaker 1: No Karen Reid, Oh no, no, it's a different case.
Speaker 1: The other piece of crap, Lady.
Speaker 2: Sullivan, solovon whatever these Karens that were reporting on. So
Speaker 2: we don't know, but we assume that she didn't have
Speaker 2: any religion to say I locked him in a freaking
Speaker 2: room and give him two little bottles of water. Right,
Speaker 2: it's still the end results of the same thing. So
Speaker 2: who cares what their reasoning is. There is no good reason,
Speaker 2: all right.
Speaker 1: So this is when when Ruby meets Jody hilda Brand
Speaker 1: and brings Jody Hildebrant into their lives. First, Joe, he
Speaker 1: starts meeting with Chad because Chad's been expelled and he
Speaker 1: has to do these weekly meetings. Then I think with
Speaker 1: the combination of meeting Jody but also their eight Passengers
Speaker 1: YouTube channel being canceled, Ruby has to now immerse herself
Speaker 1: into something else and.
Speaker 2: Everything and everything that she had lived for was taken away, right.
Speaker 1: So now she's immersed herself into this connection, big void
Speaker 1: to fill, right, just a little bit with Jody. So
Speaker 1: she comes in and she ends up moving into their house.
Speaker 1: I think that's where it just gets really weird to me.
Speaker 1: First Chad's having sessions. Then Ruby immerses herself into this
Speaker 1: connections and she becomes like a counselor and she does
Speaker 1: all the she does all the work, and she she's
Speaker 1: making videos and she's a leader in this connections. Kevin,
Speaker 1: the husband, is also having these weekly therapy sessions with
Speaker 1: Jody as well, and Basically, Jody is like a man.
Speaker 1: She doesn't like men. She makes that clear kids either.
Speaker 1: I don't think she likes anyone. And I don't understand
Speaker 1: why people like people jump onto her teachings, but they
Speaker 1: do well.
Speaker 2: The sucker born every minute.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to read something that Cherry wrote in
Speaker 1: her book. And this is when Jody. So, Jody actually
Speaker 1: ends up moving in with the Frankies. And this is
Speaker 1: because she claims that she's possessed by the devil, and
Speaker 1: so Ruby has her move into their home and live
Speaker 1: with them.
Speaker 2: Wait, who's supposedly possessed Jody?
Speaker 1: So this counselor that's in their.
Speaker 2: Lives, the counselor that's supposed to be inspiring and spiritual,
Speaker 2: is now possessed by the devil. She's possessed by the
Speaker 2: take her in the house.
Speaker 1: Well, Ruby takes her in and she moves her into
Speaker 1: the house nice and apparently this is according to Sherry's book,
Speaker 1: this is the conversation that took place. I guess. Ruby
Speaker 1: calls Sherry and she says, JODI's not well. She's being
Speaker 1: bombarded by the adversary. Her soul is under siege from
Speaker 1: Satan himself. He's trying to silence her truth. So she's
Speaker 1: moving in with us. We're going to help her get better.
Speaker 1: So Cherry says that this her mother's unhinged guru, which
Speaker 1: I thought was hilarious that that's what she called her.
Speaker 1: I think her book is really well written. Moves into
Speaker 1: their home and takes Sharry's bedroom. So now Sherry is
Speaker 1: going to go to college at BYU soon. So after
Speaker 1: Jody moves in, I just I think it's interesting to
Speaker 1: go through the story. But also I was Sherry's book.
Speaker 1: I just found some of the things that she really interesting.
Speaker 1: It's written by Sherry, the oldest daughter, and it's called
Speaker 1: the House of My Mother, And this is an entry
Speaker 1: after Jody moves in, and she says, those few weeks
Speaker 1: after Jody moved in where a total mindwarp, a bizarre,
Speaker 1: chaotic blur in which each new day seemed to outwear
Speaker 1: the last. Jody had taken up residence in my bedroom,
Speaker 1: and once installed, she never left, lingering like a bad smell,
Speaker 1: while I was relegated to the couch downstairs, a refuge
Speaker 1: in my own home. So she moves in, and then
Speaker 1: Ruby moves into the bedroom with her and Kevin, the
Speaker 1: dad is sleeping alone in the marital bed. Now, this
Speaker 1: is some weird stuff that's going on. And my question
Speaker 1: is why is Kevin complicit in all of this?
Speaker 2: It might have been, it's not overnight, it's probably slowly
Speaker 2: over time. Well, yeah, probably just trying to He's in
Speaker 2: survival mode, just like the kids, you know, walking on
Speaker 2: eggshells with this psychopath. And then she brings in her
Speaker 2: psychopath partner. Now they're in the bedroom together. I mean,
Speaker 2: if it was overnight, he would have flipped probably, but
Speaker 2: it was over time, so he probably just became accustomed
Speaker 2: to it and was in survival mode.
Speaker 1: So Jody and Ruby end up sharing a bedroom together.
Speaker 1: Then Sherry, the oldest daughter, in her memoir, also says
Speaker 1: that there was a night where she caught Ruby sneaking
Speaker 1: out of the bedroom like with a robe on, and
Speaker 1: there was massage oil and candles lit. So she's clearly
Speaker 1: stating that she thinks that they were having a lesbian relationship. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so there's so many weird things that go on
Speaker 1: in this. You're talking about two people, Ruby and Jody,
Speaker 1: who do these connection videos that are supposed to be
Speaker 1: teachings for people in the LDS church. To live their truth. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: they're having a lesbian relationship on the down low while
Speaker 1: the husband is alone in another bedroom and the children
Speaker 1: are being deprived of love and care.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no kidding. Are they still in the same house
Speaker 2: or did they move?
Speaker 1: No, they're in this house in Springville.
Speaker 2: Still there, I mean in this timeline, there's still.
Speaker 1: A timeline there. This is the second home. When they
Speaker 1: first started out making their blog, they lived in a
Speaker 1: very simile dad.
Speaker 2: Focus on work. He just wakes up, puts his time on,
Speaker 2: goes to work, I don't know, fine, and then come
Speaker 2: home and does them homework with kids. And this is ok,
Speaker 2: a good job.
Speaker 1: Okay, But here's my question for you, because the dad, Kevin,
Speaker 1: seems to be even though it's hard for me to say,
Speaker 1: I think he's genuinely a good guy. I think he's
Speaker 1: just extremely controlled manipulated by his wife.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: But he's a member of the LDS Church, and as
Speaker 1: far as I know in things that you have told me,
Speaker 1: that the teachings of the church are that the man
Speaker 1: is a good father and a good husband.
Speaker 2: And I mean just this is general good teachings and
Speaker 2: you know, for everyone the man should be if the
Speaker 2: man has children. The man needs to act as a father,
Speaker 2: not as a roommate to the lesbian couple next door. Right,
Speaker 2: all right, I just want to read one more, he said,
Speaker 2: Know what you're getting at?
Speaker 1: Well, maybe I'll get to it later when I.
Speaker 2: Guess, maybe what you're getting at is he certainly had
Speaker 2: some teachings right in his life? Right he didn't. I
Speaker 2: mean he could have. We don't know his background, but
Speaker 2: he grew up. I think he served a mission, a
Speaker 2: church mission, He went to wy He did all these
Speaker 2: things that you would think he'd have some common sense
Speaker 2: for the household, right, And I guess.
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is I know that, like, what are
Speaker 1: the classes that you go to on Sunday that are
Speaker 1: just for the men, the priesthood classes.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, how does he go down that way?
Speaker 2: That's all we learn about is being a better husband
Speaker 2: and a better father.
Speaker 1: But I guess my question is how does he go
Speaker 1: to priesthood classes on a Sunday and then go home?
Speaker 2: Well? I don't know, maybe he wasn't going anywhere. I
Speaker 2: don't know. You're saying, how do you yeah, he's he's uh,
Speaker 2: he's Christian? On Sunday right right, and then on mondays
Speaker 2: back to his usual self.
Speaker 1: I just I don't understand it.
Speaker 2: It might have just been he was just going through
Speaker 2: the motion. He was just going through the routine. It
Speaker 2: wasn't really nothing was clicking. I don't know. But he
Speaker 2: is guilty.
Speaker 1: Not in a criminal sense, but in a moral sense, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, maybe in a criminal sense.
Speaker 1: So this I just wanted to read one more thing
Speaker 1: that Sherry wrote because I thought this was very interesting.
Speaker 1: Where she she does talk about her dad, She says,
Speaker 1: I felt helpless watching all of this unfold. Dad, who
Speaker 1: seemed like a shell of his former self, wasn't doing
Speaker 1: anything to stop a shell.
Speaker 2: Of his former self. So he was just going through
Speaker 2: the motions.
Speaker 1: I wanted to intervene, to shake him out of compliance,
Speaker 1: but I didn't know how. I yearned from my dad
Speaker 1: to find his backbone, to step up and be the
Speaker 1: protector he was supposed to be. In the end, he
Speaker 1: never even tried.
Speaker 2: I mean never even tried. Not he tried. She kicked
Speaker 2: him out, He called the police. They didn't believe him, like, never,
Speaker 2: not even tried.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: And that's and your kid's perception is reality. So that's
Speaker 2: how she sees it sucks for him, right, that's how
Speaker 2: he's seen as a father, because not a father.
Speaker 1: This because after Jody moves in, and then Ruby and
Speaker 1: Jody are sharing a bed, it gets to the point
Speaker 1: where there's all these control type tactics where, for example,
Speaker 1: Sherry says she's not allowed to go into the bedroom.
Speaker 1: She has a text her mom and asked permission. Kevin
Speaker 1: was allowed to leave the house, but he had to
Speaker 1: text Ruby and ask permission to come home, and she
Speaker 1: had to allow him permission to come back home, and
Speaker 1: he just went along with this.
Speaker 2: Then it got.
Speaker 1: Why so you can well see, look at Rubby, Frank.
Speaker 2: Look she did her husband. Don't complain. That's what you're
Speaker 2: trying to do a standard here and be like, see,
Speaker 2: at least I'm not like Ruby Frank Frank. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1: Also, I'm going to pick.
Speaker 2: The story next week.
Speaker 1: Okay, well you can pick the story. Also, what also
Speaker 1: happens is that Chad, the oldest son, ends up exiled
Speaker 1: from the family. She kicks him out.
Speaker 2: At what age is like, and he's an adult child
Speaker 2: now I think he's like.
Speaker 1: Eighteen or nineteen or something like that. She kicks him
Speaker 1: out of the house, adult child, adult child.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Then Sherry, the oldest daughter, ends up exiled. She's excommunicated.
Speaker 1: She goes to college, but she has no more contact.
Speaker 1: And then Kevin, the dad ex communicated, well whatever they
Speaker 1: call it, I mean, whatever you want to call it
Speaker 1: in a family. She has excommunicated from the family ousted.
Speaker 1: So Ruby gets rid of Chad, Ruby gets rid of Sherry.
Speaker 1: And then Kevin has explicit instructions that he is not
Speaker 1: allowed to contact his children at.
Speaker 2: All, and he's obedience, and he's obedient and he doesn't
Speaker 2: so he want.
Speaker 1: To upset the wife. Then they also talk about the
Speaker 1: documentary how there are neighbors that are very concerned about
Speaker 1: what's going on with these children, and that they call
Speaker 1: child services, and that they text the husband like, hey,
Speaker 1: you might want to check in on your kids, and
Speaker 1: he blocks them.
Speaker 2: You know, I certainly am grateful that the neighbors were
Speaker 2: aware and all that, and I don't want to judge,
Speaker 2: but just generally speaking, if like you got to do more,
Speaker 2: if you if we truly believed our neighbors had kids,
Speaker 2: which our neighbors love kids. If our neighbors had kids,
Speaker 2: no one has kids in our neighborhood. If our neighbors
Speaker 2: had kids and we believe they were malnourished. They were like,
Speaker 2: let's say our boys were saying, they're not in school anymore.
Speaker 2: And we saw him once and he was malnourished and
Speaker 2: he looked and you know, he was like stuck in
Speaker 2: the home, and we had reason to believe it was bad.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't just make a phone call and then that's
Speaker 2: it and then rug my shoulders. Well, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I would be like, no, I'm going to capture a video.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go knock on the door. I'm going
Speaker 2: to go over there with the police. You got to
Speaker 2: expose it. And then if you're wrong, oh, well you're wrong.
Speaker 2: And if you're right, then now it can't be denied.
Speaker 2: Right If a police officer or a social worker or
Speaker 2: a teacher or someone saw the child truly like unhealthy
Speaker 2: and not how they should be living, it can't be denied.
Speaker 2: Then something would be done.
Speaker 1: Well, I think you are the exception to the rule,
Speaker 1: because I think most people would do the bare minimum
Speaker 1: and then they would move on with their life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, those neighbors, they have their own lives,
Speaker 2: they have their own things that they're doing, and you know,
Speaker 2: so it's not like it's really their responsibility. Well they
Speaker 2: were calling though, I mean they were doing something and
Speaker 2: that's good, and basically nothing happened.
Speaker 1: So eventually, this is where I don't think the documentary
Speaker 1: really explains it, and I don't know how this happened.
Speaker 1: But there are two middle children, so there's six children altogether.
Speaker 1: The two oldest are exiled from the family by Ruby.
Speaker 1: She gets rid of them, and I think that's under
Speaker 1: the pressure of Jody too, because clearly this woman her
Speaker 1: tactic is to isolate.
Speaker 2: They're probably grown, they could speak for themselves, they could
Speaker 2: push back, so she's like, oh, we gotta get rid
Speaker 2: of their threat to my new relationship with you, exactly.
Speaker 1: So if she can get rid of the husband and
Speaker 1: the two oldest kids, then the two middle children end
Speaker 1: up living with a neighbor. I don't know why or how.
Speaker 1: They don't explain that in the documentary, but they end
Speaker 1: up finding the two middle children in a neighbor's.
Speaker 2: House, and then those neighbors don't say, hey, why are
Speaker 2: these kids living with us? Like, yeah, we're going to
Speaker 2: take care of right now. But so obviously that's parental neglect.
Speaker 1: I don't know I have questions about that. So if
Speaker 1: anybody knows anything about how those middle children ended up
Speaker 1: with the neighbors and why the neighbors were caring for them,
Speaker 1: and why the neighbors didn't know, it's not in the book,
Speaker 1: and it's not in the documentary at least as far.
Speaker 1: I'm almost done with the book, but maybe Sherry will
Speaker 1: get to it, but I don't know. That's the mystery
Speaker 1: for me. At this point, Ruby and Jody end up
Speaker 1: moving to Hildebrand's home in Ivan's, Utah, which is this big,
Speaker 1: five million dollar home that's like a like a did
Speaker 1: you saw it? Did you see it in the videos?
Speaker 1: That looks like a.
Speaker 2: Fort I saw a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So what happens is they take the two youngest children
Speaker 1: with them, and you know it. Throughout Sherry's books, she
Speaker 1: talks about how her mother, Ruby had issues with the
Speaker 1: two youngest, always saying that they needed to be punished,
Speaker 1: and there was even an example she gives where they
Speaker 1: had a Christmas and she gave gifts to all of
Speaker 1: the kids except for the two youngest, and the two
Speaker 1: youngest had to sit and watch their siblings open Christmas
Speaker 1: gifts and they got nothing and then she made them
Speaker 1: clean up the wrapping paper. And I don't know what
Speaker 1: it was. I don't know why, but for some reason
Speaker 1: she had some I mean, she didn't like any of
Speaker 1: her kids, obviously, but the two youngest were I think
Speaker 1: got the brunt of her.
Speaker 2: Well. I imagine her behavior got worse and worse and
Speaker 2: worse and then and the youngest children are the one
Speaker 2: that you can control the most, and they're going to listen, right,
Speaker 2: So it just got worse for them.
Speaker 1: So one of Frankie's children, it was the boy, escaped
Speaker 1: Hildebrand's home and you and Ivan's utah through a window
Speaker 1: and went to a neighbor's home to ask for help.
Speaker 1: And this is actually where you can see in the
Speaker 1: documentary the ring camera. There's the ring camera footage. The
Speaker 1: neighbor comes on and he says, can I help you? Actually,
Speaker 1: the boys walking away. If you watch, he rings the
Speaker 1: bell and then he starts to walk away, and then
Speaker 1: the neighbor comes on and says, can I help you?
Speaker 1: And then the neighbors saw that he the boy had
Speaker 1: duct tape wrapped around his ankles and wrists. So the
Speaker 1: neighbor contacted law enforcement.
Speaker 2: Like badly to that duct tape. Like I had been
Speaker 2: there for a while. It was tight, right, I mean,
Speaker 2: I've never seen you know, It's not like it was
Speaker 2: a good scenario, whether it's duct tape round.
Speaker 1: But the thing that got me because I watched that
Speaker 1: scene a couple of times, and you're so polite to
Speaker 1: the sun. The Sun was so polite because then the
Speaker 1: neighbor says, you know, how can I help you? Or
Speaker 1: what's this about? And he says, oh, it's personal business,
Speaker 1: which you can tell right there by that statement that
Speaker 1: this child's been conditioned to not talk about it.
Speaker 2: Miss that part. I heard the part where he said
Speaker 2: I just need two things, and he goes, actually one thing.
Speaker 1: Right, But first he says something about it, Oh, it's
Speaker 1: just personal business. So the boy rings the doorbell and
Speaker 1: he tells the man, the neighbor, that he just needs
Speaker 1: two things. That he changes it. He says I just
Speaker 1: need one and he says, well what is it? And
Speaker 1: he says, can you call the police, And then I
Speaker 1: think he says something about you know, it's just personal business.
Speaker 2: And then to give that man credit, I think he
Speaker 2: came out fairly quickly once he saw the issues. I
Speaker 2: think there was a lady there assuming is his wife,
Speaker 2: and they were caring, and they were calling the police
Speaker 2: and they were they were on top of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think at first you can tell he
Speaker 1: seems like an annoyed neighbor. It was when the kid
Speaker 1: rings the doorbell, he's like, what do you want to
Speaker 1: see the whole thing?
Speaker 2: Maybe the kid ring it like five times, or you know,
Speaker 2: he's thinking, why is this kid you know? Here? But
Speaker 2: but once he saw it was an issue, that man
Speaker 2: you know, rescued him.
Speaker 1: He did, and he also broke down, which made me
Speaker 1: break down. I will tell you that's the one time
Speaker 1: during this whole documentary, which is terrible, but I didn't
Speaker 1: cry until the neighbor cried. You can tell on the
Speaker 1: phone with the police that he loses it. He breaks down.
Speaker 2: He saw there might have been some likely crafts is
Speaker 2: going on right next door, and I never saw anything.
Speaker 1: So the caller tells authorities that the boy says what
Speaker 1: happened to him was his own fault and that his
Speaker 1: mom might come looking for him here soon, So we
Speaker 1: need to get the cops here as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: Upon arrival at Hildebrand's home, so the law enforcement they
Speaker 1: show up they located another one of Frankie's children, also
Speaker 1: malnourished inside a closet. This was the nine year old girl.
Speaker 1: So the twelve year old boy is the one who
Speaker 1: rang the doorbell of the neighbor. The nine year old
Speaker 1: girl was still at home and she was sitting on
Speaker 1: the floor inside a closet. She was petrified and spent
Speaker 1: nearly four hours sitting on the floor before first responders
Speaker 1: were finally able to coax her out.
Speaker 2: Shaved head too, right, head was shad.
Speaker 1: I think her hair was cut for I don't know
Speaker 1: if he had much.
Speaker 2: Isn't a big deal because let me want that style.
Speaker 2: But it's it's controlling them. It's controlling these kids, and
Speaker 2: it's making them feel it's not human.
Speaker 1: Also in the documentary, you see the police officer find
Speaker 1: her in the closet and he you can tell he's
Speaker 1: very affected by what he finds, and he sits in
Speaker 1: there with her.
Speaker 2: I think he told the other police officers, I'm just
Speaker 2: going to stay here, Yeah.
Speaker 1: And he did. He sat in there with her. They
Speaker 1: order her a pizza. I think he sits in there
Speaker 1: with her and tries to talk.
Speaker 2: To her, sits down at her level, right six feet flat,
Speaker 2: and you know, it's kind of like, Okay, I'm not
Speaker 2: a cop. I'm just a person right now, I mean
Speaker 2: in saleswords. But that was kind of the thinking eye level,
Speaker 2: you know, and not demanding anything like let's go upstairs,
Speaker 2: let's you know, interrogating, which is important, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I actually thought that was really compassionate of him
Speaker 1: to do that instead of just you know, you go in,
Speaker 1: you sweep through the house, you find a malt nursed child,
Speaker 1: you can just pick him up and have you know,
Speaker 1: call Child Protected Services and have him pick him up.
Speaker 1: But I think they knew she was so she.
Speaker 2: Was traumatized trapped in this windowless room, I think, yeah.
Speaker 2: Or if it wasn't wndless, I mean it was.
Speaker 1: No, I think it was. It's like one of those
Speaker 1: escape room type of weird things that this house. This
Speaker 1: house was very odd. It was it was like a
Speaker 1: fortress and it had all these like escape type rooms,
Speaker 1: and so Ruby kept a journal, but she also was
Speaker 1: very explicit about writing about the abuse. So in some
Speaker 1: of her journal entries, Ruby Frankie shared several first hand
Speaker 1: instances of harming her two youngest children, whom she believed
Speaker 1: were demonically possessed and insisted that they must repent. One
Speaker 1: of her entries says, I told the boy he emulates
Speaker 1: a snake. If he wants to emulate the Savior, he
Speaker 1: needs to be one hundred percent obedient with exactness. The
Speaker 1: body must engage in good work, and the good works
Speaker 1: need to be painful. I have the power of God
Speaker 1: and he must obey. This is some This is a
Speaker 1: woman who is on a complete delusional power trip, fueled
Speaker 1: by another woman who is her girlfriend, guru whatever, who
Speaker 1: is also on a complete power trip. And they clearly
Speaker 1: get off on controlling people and situations. And I don't
Speaker 1: know what is what is the stance on, Like I
Speaker 1: understand that LDS you're religious, but is there also the
Speaker 1: belief that Satan exists and can possess bodies.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not saying that's what's going on in
Speaker 2: that household, but that's what she's well and in her
Speaker 2: mind she believes that's what's happening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think she believes that's what happening is
Speaker 1: happening because she's also being fueled by Jodie, who's saying,
Speaker 1: you know, because Jodie's possessed by a demon too. So
Speaker 1: she's clearly telling Ruby that her children are possessed by
Speaker 1: a devils. I don't know before the boys escape in August,
Speaker 1: her son, who I mean, unless they showed some remorse.
Speaker 2: But they show I mean, and not just that's going
Speaker 2: to happen overnight. But the mom didn't show any remorse,
Speaker 2: did she? She's just an evil person.
Speaker 1: Well, she apologizes during her sentencing, but when they first
Speaker 1: when they.
Speaker 2: First apologized during their sentencing, Sorry, I'm not buying that.
Speaker 2: So this Jodie lady, when when the police arrived and
Speaker 2: tried to you know, arrest her or detainer, she was
Speaker 2: fighting it too. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, she had her attorney on the phone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean she was fighting it a lot, like
Speaker 2: she was. She knew that she was criminal, and she
Speaker 2: wanted she did not want the police anywhere near her.
Speaker 1: No, she had her attorney on the phone, and she
Speaker 1: was asking for a warrant, and she was making sure
Speaker 1: she was trying.
Speaker 2: To like I've been through this before, where's the warrant?
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was trying to make sure that they did
Speaker 1: not search her home in any way.
Speaker 2: Because she knew she was criminal.
Speaker 1: Right, you're saying she's not delusional you're saying, you're saying
Speaker 1: the woman was well aware that what she was doing
Speaker 1: where criminal acts. Who was definitely okay with it.
Speaker 2: She knew the police were not going to be okay
Speaker 2: with it and the law was going to come down
Speaker 2: on her.
Speaker 1: So before his escape in August, the Sun who's not
Speaker 1: identified because they have not identified the youngest children, previously
Speaker 1: tried to run away in July, on a night when
Speaker 1: he was forced to sleep outside on the patio, he
Speaker 1: left a message for his mother and Hilda Brand scrawled
Speaker 1: out of pebbles that read jail. We'll call when I
Speaker 1: get there. The twelve year old was found by Frankie
Speaker 1: later that night. She also describes her daughter as manipulative
Speaker 1: and at one point cut off all the girl's long hair.
Speaker 1: No more distracting with long hair, Frankie wrote in one
Speaker 1: of her journal entries. The boy also repeatedly begged his
Speaker 1: mother for basic care, such as water or air conditioning,
Speaker 1: according to her journal entries. On July eleventh, the boy
Speaker 1: told Ruby that he wanted to go to jail. According
Speaker 1: to her journal, I mean he probably wanted to go
Speaker 1: to jail.
Speaker 2: To the jelly, get three meals a day, and they
Speaker 2: got some security.
Speaker 1: No seriously, or he might have said he wanted to
Speaker 1: go to jail because she's consistently telling him that he's
Speaker 1: evil and he's possessed by the devil, and that he
Speaker 1: needs to repent and that he needs to work hard.
Speaker 1: She also apparently made them do extreme physical labor to
Speaker 1: wipe them of their sins and for them to repent
Speaker 1: for all this evil that they possess. I think she
Speaker 1: made them run in the desert and without water and
Speaker 1: things like that. All right, so Ruby is arrested and
Speaker 1: Jody is arrested, and during their sentencing, Frankie did apologize
Speaker 1: to her children. She said, I believe dark was light
Speaker 1: and right was wrong. I would do anything in this
Speaker 1: world for you. I took from you all that was
Speaker 1: soft and safe and good. Jody said she hoped the
Speaker 1: children would be able to heal physically and emotionally. One
Speaker 1: of the reasons I did not go to trial is
Speaker 1: because I did not want them to emotionally relive the experience,
Speaker 1: which would have been detrimental to them. She said. MY
Speaker 1: hope and prayer is that they will heal and move
Speaker 1: forward to have beautiful lives. Basically, both women took a
Speaker 1: plea deal. They took a deal. They had four counts
Speaker 1: of child abuse, with one to fifteen years each for
Speaker 1: each count. So basically they're spending between four and sixty
Speaker 1: years in prison. I don't know which it is. I
Speaker 1: assume after the four years they're up for role.
Speaker 2: Do you know how that works?
Speaker 1: But right now there's sentences between four and sixty years,
Speaker 1: and it's in the hands of the Utah role.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let's hope it's sixty.
Speaker 1: Let's hope it's sixty. I do find it. I don't
Speaker 1: even know what it is ironic that Jody even has
Speaker 1: the nerve to stand before the court and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm such a good person. I'm not even going to
Speaker 1: go to trial because I don't want you guys to,
Speaker 1: you know, hurt anymore and want n the feelings, right, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: So both women are currently in prison and they're sharing
Speaker 1: us all with Yes with massage oil and and Kevin
Speaker 1: is not allowed to visit.
Speaker 2: Ken's Kevin's next door in the next Door.
Speaker 1: Prosecutors claim that both Frankie and Hildebrandt were motivated by
Speaker 1: religious extremism, which we talked about exactly also when I
Speaker 1: was when I was watching this, there were some parallels
Speaker 1: that I saw between this case and also the Gabby
Speaker 1: Potito case, Because, first of all, in the Gabby Patito case,
Speaker 1: there is a scenario where we talked about when the
Speaker 1: Moab City police pulled them over. That was really the
Speaker 1: window of opportunity where Gabby could have been saved. I know,
Speaker 1: hindsight's twenty twenty and it's easy to look back on
Speaker 1: something and say this should have been done, They should
Speaker 1: have done this. But just to reiterate, if one of
Speaker 1: those police officers would have made sure that she called
Speaker 1: her mom from the side of the road and that
Speaker 1: they heard the conversation, and that they they got on
Speaker 1: the phone and said, hey, you know what, ma'am. You
Speaker 1: know we pulled your daughter and her boyfriend over. There
Speaker 1: were witnesses that claimed that they saw him slapping her
Speaker 1: on the side of the road. Her eyes messed up,
Speaker 1: her arm has scratches, He has scratches. This isn't a
Speaker 1: good scenario.
Speaker 2: We just wanted to let you know, this is going
Speaker 2: to be an investigation, like is there any history between
Speaker 2: these two? Not so much. It could have just been
Speaker 2: an investigation into this couple. Not so much like we're
Speaker 2: going to tell your mom because she was an adult,
Speaker 2: but it could be an investigation, but I should have
Speaker 2: done that.
Speaker 1: I also think that there's just a moral factor there
Speaker 1: where I understand that they probably weren't under any legal
Speaker 1: obligation to make sure that she made the phone call,
Speaker 1: but I would just think from a moral standpoint that
Speaker 1: if they made sure that she got a hold of
Speaker 1: a parent that day, the things could have turned out differently. Also,
Speaker 1: the parallel that I was talking about between the Gabby
Speaker 1: Patito case and then the Ruby Frankie case is that
Speaker 1: there are also other times when DCFS was contacted multiple
Speaker 1: times about the Frankie children and they never investigated. They
Speaker 1: never followed this to.
Speaker 2: Me because you always hear these stories where like someone
Speaker 2: called Child Protected Services as a retaliation, you know, like oh,
Speaker 2: my girlfriend dumped me and she's a crappy mom, and
Speaker 2: so then you called you know, d CPS or whatever
Speaker 2: state you're in, and you call and then they show
Speaker 2: up and blah blah blah, and then there's a lawsuit
Speaker 2: because they cause havoc and this and that. But then
Speaker 2: there's all these like valid cases and like they don't
Speaker 2: even like do anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, in the Ruby Frankie case, as
Speaker 1: far as from my understanding, Sherry in her memoir claims
Speaker 1: that she called herself over twenty times, like she made
Speaker 1: multiple phone calls on behalf of her siblings yea, and
Speaker 1: nothing was done, and not only her as the oldest sibling,
Speaker 1: saying hey, I need you guys to check on my
Speaker 1: younger siblings because I think there's some crazy things going on.
Speaker 1: I don't know if my kids, my siblings are okay.
Speaker 1: But there were neighbors calling as well. And again, it
Speaker 1: reminds me of the Gabby Patito case because I feel
Speaker 1: like there was the window of opportunity where those children
Speaker 1: could have been saved before they were taken to Jody
Speaker 1: Hildebrand's house and wrapped up and scarred and they're bound
Speaker 1: and everything that happened to them. Anyway, that was just
Speaker 1: me relating those two. Also, I just think that there's
Speaker 1: such a parenting fail in both of those cases. I know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to place blame on Gabby Patito's parents
Speaker 1: because you know, I don't know the whole circumstance. I
Speaker 1: don't know the whole story, but we did talk about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no doubt they're grieving. There's no doubt that
Speaker 2: it was trouble as child. Sure they have their own regrets,
Speaker 2: so we don't need to add.
Speaker 1: Well, we did talk about earlier when we talked about
Speaker 1: Gabby Patito, that it just felt like there were opportunities
Speaker 1: where either the mom or dad or both could have intervened.
Speaker 1: But also, you know, it just we have to talk
Speaker 1: about Kevin and just his He willingly abandoned his family.
Speaker 2: It's a dead beat.
Speaker 1: He cut all connection with his young children because Ruby
Speaker 1: and Jody asked him to, and that he had the
Speaker 1: ability to save them as their father, he could have.
Speaker 1: He could have prevented all of this by just being
Speaker 1: a stand up dad and putting his foot down to
Speaker 1: Ruby and saying this is ridiculous. You cannot excommunicate me
Speaker 1: from my children. I have rights and he never did that.
Speaker 2: Nope.
Speaker 1: And I understand a lot of people DM me about
Speaker 1: this case because I posted that we were going to
Speaker 1: talk about it, and I would say. The number one
Speaker 1: rusher then I got over and over and over is
Speaker 1: why did the police not criminally charge him? And my
Speaker 1: thought is he didn't criminally do anything.
Speaker 2: He didn't protect his children.
Speaker 1: That's not a criminal. How is it a criminalize he
Speaker 1: has a.
Speaker 2: Relationship with the kids and if he knows, he.
Speaker 1: Doesn't know though. That's that's his defense is that he
Speaker 1: has no idea what's going on. Was that he completely
Speaker 1: removed himself from his wife and children and he was
Speaker 1: unaware that any of this is going on.
Speaker 2: So he has a duty to know that. The situation
Speaker 2: is kids are in good or bad. You can't just
Speaker 2: be like, oh, they're they're over there. They've been there
Speaker 2: for two years. I don't know they are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But he has a moral duty. There's a difference
Speaker 1: between a moral duty and a legal Then why was
Speaker 1: he charged with anything? What are they going to charge
Speaker 1: him with being a bad dad? Because he being unaware
Speaker 1: being complicit?
Speaker 2: Well whatever, sucks to be him.
Speaker 1: So Sherry wrote a book which I've read most of
Speaker 1: I would suggest if you're interested in this case that
Speaker 1: you also read it. It's called The House of My Mother,
Speaker 1: A Daughter's Quest for Freedom. It's really well written and
Speaker 1: it has a lot more detail about what was going
Speaker 1: on within their household prior to their YouTube channel being successful,
Speaker 1: and then also some of the things that Sherry dealt
Speaker 1: with with her mom. And it's I don't know, it's
Speaker 1: just really interesting. Here's some key points from her own memory.
Speaker 2: God, I do like when in a situation like this,
Speaker 2: like Sherry writes a book because it is good, it's
Speaker 2: probably therapeutic for her. People come to her and know
Speaker 2: her story so they can you know, support her. And
Speaker 2: she's you know, because it'd be terrible. She felt like
Speaker 2: she had to hide this all and it's embarrassing. And
Speaker 2: then also this sounds done, but you know, financially she
Speaker 2: has something to support her. Hopefully she got paid well
Speaker 2: for the book. It does well. She maybe she can
Speaker 2: do public speaking or work with other victims, and now
Speaker 2: she has a career. She has something for herself and
Speaker 2: she can take care of herself. That's why I like
Speaker 2: these when I hear stories of these victims writing books,
Speaker 2: because hopefully it gives them something to transition into normal living.
Speaker 1: Here's some just some key points from Sherry's memoir. Basically,
Speaker 1: she talks about how the child abuse started long before
Speaker 1: Jody Hildebrandt ever entered the picture. Basically, what she says
Speaker 1: is her mom was always that person. It's not that
Speaker 1: Jody came and made her into someone completely different. It
Speaker 1: was always within her What is that so?
Speaker 2: What is that so? And like, how does that change anything?
Speaker 1: It doesn't change anything. But I think it's more of
Speaker 1: just recognizing that that that Ruby Frankie is just a
Speaker 1: horrible person from day one, not that she was manipulated
Speaker 1: by someone, that she was always fled it right. She
Speaker 1: also paid Sherry one hundred dollars to wax off half
Speaker 1: of her eyebrow for a clickbake video titled Sherry, I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry So I was right?
Speaker 2: Did on purpose?
Speaker 1: Yeah? When Sherry disclosed her depression.
Speaker 2: She's taking six years and she guse her kids one
Speaker 2: hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: She also claims that she never actually got one hundred dollars.
Speaker 2: I think she just like, I'll put it in a
Speaker 2: college fund for you later, don't ask again.
Speaker 1: When Sheery disclosed her depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation to
Speaker 1: her parents, her father was initially supportive, but Ruby said
Speaker 1: that all problems can be solved with prayer, diet, and exercise.
Speaker 1: Sheerry went to her and said that she was very
Speaker 1: depressed and that she had, you know, suicidal ideation, and
Speaker 1: that she just said, you need to exercise and eat better. Well,
Speaker 1: and then the dad originally said, I think you should
Speaker 1: go to therapy, but then the mom talked him out
Speaker 1: of it, and he just kind of went along with it.
Speaker 2: Don't talk to anyone, don't tattle on me.
Speaker 1: Ruby's abuse conditioned Sherry for sexual abuse by an older
Speaker 1: church member. She does talk about how she meets this
Speaker 1: older married man that's part of the church, and I
Speaker 1: guess he's high up in the church. He ends up
Speaker 1: sexually abusing her.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1: And I think her rationale for why it happened, or
Speaker 1: why she didn't say no, was that she had been conditioned.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't see red flags, right, you know? You
Speaker 2: see someone that you and I would think is a
Speaker 2: red flag. And to her it's normal because she's had
Speaker 2: crappy people around her mom, dad, and lesbian lover.
Speaker 1: Included lesbian lover. Okay, let me ask you just your
Speaker 1: opinion about this. So when Sherry eventually cuts off contact
Speaker 1: from this older man, who, by the way, I believe
Speaker 1: is married and has kids, and told her bishop what happened,
Speaker 1: her temple recommend a document that certifies that you're worthy
Speaker 1: to to enter and participate in temple ceremonies, was revoked
Speaker 1: for a month. She claims that the older the older
Speaker 1: man that did this to her face no punishment.
Speaker 2: First of all, people make mistakes, and there are people
Speaker 2: in churches that make mistakes. So you can't fault teachings.
Speaker 2: You can fault the men or women men. So if
Speaker 2: they took her temple recommend away, they probably did while
Speaker 2: they were researching what was going on. But you don't
Speaker 2: really take it. It's all on the honor system. So
Speaker 2: it's not like they took it away and said, you know,
Speaker 2: raided her house and took it away. It's they probably
Speaker 2: put it on hold while they looked into things. I
Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know what happened, but I know.
Speaker 2: It's also not a criminal court, so they're not really
Speaker 2: going to bisciate as much as they, you know, as
Speaker 2: a criminal court would. But they'll they'll you know, ask
Speaker 2: questions and try to diffuse it and try to get it,
Speaker 2: get it to end, and report anything. If there's anything
Speaker 2: in front of them, they will report it. I've been
Speaker 2: I know bishops that have have had to report things
Speaker 2: and testify. So it does happen, and it should with
Speaker 2: a bishop, is.
Speaker 1: There the same type of confidentiality like with a psychologist,
Speaker 1: or psychiatrist or a lawyer. Yeah, is there is there
Speaker 1: a bishop, bishop member?
Speaker 2: You mean like within the church. Yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 2: mean they're not going to go They shouldn't be going
Speaker 2: blabbing everything. So you're saying it's more if there's a
Speaker 2: crime being committed, then they should be reporting it, absolutely,
Speaker 2: But you're.
Speaker 1: Saying it's not. It's not a written doctrine. It's more
Speaker 1: of like a moral issue that you just kind of
Speaker 1: balance as to what's right and wrong and what should
Speaker 1: be held.
Speaker 2: And they do the Japan book before. It's been a
Speaker 2: long time, but I've read through it and it's very
Speaker 2: much about protecting people and protecting the youth of the church.
Speaker 2: That is the calling of the bishop is to protect
Speaker 2: the youth of the church. So if this happened, then
Speaker 2: it failed.
Speaker 1: So the children, now there are six children. The two
Speaker 1: oldest are Chad and Sherry. So Chad has a little
Speaker 1: bit of a social media presence. Obviously, Sherry wrote her memoir,
Speaker 1: and I believe she's doing interviews and she'll probably if
Speaker 1: like you said, it's probably therapeutic and healing for her
Speaker 1: to write all this down, but then also to talk
Speaker 1: about it. I do like in her interviews, when she
Speaker 1: refers to her parents, she refers to them as Kevin
Speaker 1: and Ruby. She never says mom and dad.
Speaker 2: They weren't mom and dad.
Speaker 1: So the two oldest Chad and Sherry, obviously are adults
Speaker 1: now and they're doing their own thing. And then there
Speaker 1: are the four younger children. It's Abby, Julie, Russell, and Eve.
Speaker 1: I guess their names have been released now.
Speaker 2: They were all.
Speaker 1: Placed in state protective custody following their mother's arrest. Their father,
Speaker 1: Kevin has since he's filed custody. He wants custody of
Speaker 1: the children, and he continues to rebuild relationships with the children.
Speaker 1: As far as I know, because I tried to look
Speaker 1: it up, I couldn't find that he had been granted custody.
Speaker 1: I think maybe it's still working its way through the
Speaker 1: court system. So I believe that currently all four children
Speaker 1: are in state protective custody right now. All right, Lastly,
Speaker 1: maybe there is some good that comes from the story.
Speaker 1: Kevin Frankie. He supports a new Utah bill. This bill
Speaker 1: would require Utah parents to set aside money that their
Speaker 1: children earned making online content, and it's headed by Governor
Speaker 1: Spencer Cox. The bill would also allow adults to remove
Speaker 1: online content they made as kids from web platforms. It
Speaker 1: passed the US Senate twenty or the Utah Senate. Sorry,
Speaker 1: it passed the Utah Senate twenty seven to zero in
Speaker 1: the final hours of the twenty twenty five legislative session
Speaker 1: back on Friday, March seventh, and it had previously passed
Speaker 1: the House.
Speaker 2: That's good, that's something, but that doesn't control the behavior right,
Speaker 2: the content.
Speaker 1: Right, This is the monetary right. Kevin Frankie testified in
Speaker 1: support of the bill in February, recounting that the eight
Speaker 1: Passengers YouTube channel his now ex wife launched. He called
Speaker 1: the bill a great first step towards protecting child influencers
Speaker 1: here in the state of Utah, and there is much
Speaker 1: more to do in the future. Now here's my question,
Speaker 1: so active Now, Well, one, I think that he has
Speaker 1: a public image now and people are commenting on his
Speaker 1: public image, so I'm sure not only do I think
Speaker 1: he probably is legitimately a good guy. I mean, he
Speaker 1: didn't do anything horrible. He was just I mean he
Speaker 1: married her and had six kids. Yeah, but he was complicit.
Speaker 1: I know what you're saying, but I don't think he's evil.
Speaker 1: She's truly evil. But my question is he is now
Speaker 1: divorcing Ruby even though in the documentary he still claims
Speaker 1: to love her and care about her. And I'm like, man,
Speaker 1: this man is just like he's just brainwashed. But my
Speaker 1: question is do you think that he is divorcing her
Speaker 1: because he has to for his public image, or do
Speaker 1: you think he's still he's probably still completely enamored and
Speaker 1: enticements in.
Speaker 2: Jail, though maybe he doesn't want any ties with someone
Speaker 2: in jail because then he has to, like I don't know,
Speaker 2: then he can cut her off.
Speaker 1: I don't feel like he wants to. I feel like
Speaker 1: he just is divorcing her because it's like what he
Speaker 1: has to do to restore some of his public image.
Speaker 2: So he's not remarried or anything like that. I don't
Speaker 2: think so well, he can't be if he's still married.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's right. I think there was a question he
Speaker 1: is illegal.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think there was an interview I read with him
Speaker 1: where someone was asking is he dating and he said
Speaker 1: no because he's still legally married to Ruby, which I
Speaker 1: know in the church that even if.
Speaker 2: They're separated, you should wait till you're not legally married, right.
Speaker 1: So I think that's where he's at. So all right. Anyway,
Speaker 1: that is the Ruby Frankie case, which was a horrific.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was not in any way inspiring.
Speaker 1: It was not in inspiring at all. Again, Shane, we're
Speaker 1: covering true crime, so I don't think we're going to
Speaker 1: have a lot of inspiring stories. But thank you guys
Speaker 1: for listening. We appreciate it. And if you have any
Speaker 1: comments on Ruby Frankie or Gabby Patito, we would love
Speaker 1: to hear them.
Speaker 2: Anything important that we overlooked or were incorrect on, yeah.
Speaker 1: Feel free to let us know. Thanks for listening. Thank you,