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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily and this is Bridget and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff mom never told you. So I'm so

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Speaker 1: excited for today's episode because something you know about me

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Speaker 1: if you follow me on Twitter, is that I love television.

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Speaker 1: Nothing I love more than TV. And today we're breaking

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Speaker 1: down a television series or Hulu series. I guess I

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Speaker 1: should say that a lot of y'all have written in

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Speaker 1: wanting to unpack and we're excited to unpack it. We've

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Speaker 1: been watching along with you and now is the time.

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Speaker 1: So today we're talking about The Handmaid's Tale. I should

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Speaker 1: say a two quick things. If you haven't seen The

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Speaker 1: Handmaid's Tale, spoiler alert, spoiler alert, spoiler alert, we're going

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Speaker 1: to get into the plot details. You haven't seen it,

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Speaker 1: and you want to see it and you don't want

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Speaker 1: it spoiled, skip this one. Skip this one for sure. UM. Also,

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Speaker 1: trigger warning, this show is one of the most traumatic

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Speaker 1: things I've ever seen. UM. It deals a lot with

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Speaker 1: really heavy issues around UM rape, rape and violence against

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Speaker 1: women and UM a whole lot of really heavy stuff.

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Speaker 1: So just trigger warning that that is what's happening in

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Speaker 1: the show. So that's something that's gonna be tough. Just

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Speaker 1: know that, and if it's not safe for you to listen,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to. And if it is going to

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Speaker 1: be later, you can always come back. But I remember

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Speaker 1: getting a lot of tweets when he first launched the

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Speaker 1: show of women requesting and we got tons of emails

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Speaker 1: from you all requesting the handmads tail as a topic.

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Speaker 1: And I was reticent to start the series. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I already feel like I'm living in a dystopian nightmare.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get my entertainment from a like

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Speaker 1: a really scary dystopian future and which women were persecuted

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Speaker 1: because I already feel like that is my reality. And

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Speaker 1: then Bridget was like, are you watching? You need to

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Speaker 1: watch and I was like, okay, I'll do it for

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Speaker 1: the podcast. And once I was in, I was hooked.

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Speaker 1: But it was traumatizing. It's heavy. I watched it. I

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Speaker 1: had to space it out. I watched like, well, I

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Speaker 1: couldn't watch more than one in a day, and when I, oh, god, no,

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Speaker 1: I binge watched it. And when I would watch it,

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Speaker 1: I would have to have a palate cleanser. So I

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Speaker 1: would have a couple of episodes of Bob's Burger's cutea

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Speaker 1: or something real silly, just just so I could sleep

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Speaker 1: at night. That's a good tactic if you want to

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Speaker 1: watch it, but you don't want to be horribly, horribly

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Speaker 1: bummed out and depressed about things. I rely heavily on

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Speaker 1: the sub breddit. I bleach, Oh, it's like puppies and

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Speaker 1: kittens and we've fallen into too deep a hole on

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Speaker 1: the internet. Gets your eye bleached ready for this one,

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Speaker 1: because it's a it's a tough watch. Um So if

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Speaker 1: you don't know about the show or the book. Basically,

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Speaker 1: what's going on in The Handmaid's Tail is that there's

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Speaker 1: been a takeover of the government by Christian fundamentalists and

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Speaker 1: there's been basically, women are no longer full people with

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Speaker 1: full rights. And it happens sort of bit by bit

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Speaker 1: people to sort of realized what was going on. Women

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Speaker 1: aren't able to work or have money. Um, all the

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Speaker 1: women who are employed have to get kind of mass fired,

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Speaker 1: and their bank accounts are frozen and they have to

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Speaker 1: give their money if they're married to their husband's um,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of chilling. And then rape culture comes

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Speaker 1: into an effect in which social standards for what is

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Speaker 1: deemed an appropriate woman versus a slot. It becomes very

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Speaker 1: clear and communicated. To women who are out jogging, for instance,

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Speaker 1: they're they're shunned and shamed for wearing shorts or wearing

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Speaker 1: tank dups and things like that. Right, like the sleeve

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Speaker 1: band that was just placed, the sleeveless dress band that

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Speaker 1: was just implemented in the United States Congress correct. Um.

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Speaker 1: So in this kind of unsettling world of Gilead, that's

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Speaker 1: this this scary, messed up place. Uh. Fertile women are

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Speaker 1: handmaids and they basically sort of serve as wombs for

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Speaker 1: high ranking men in the government called commanders. Every month,

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Speaker 1: they have a ceremony where they have to lay in

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Speaker 1: between the legs of the commander's wife while the commander

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Speaker 1: basically rapes them and holds their hands down. And it's

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Speaker 1: very very scary and very very messed up. It's it's

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Speaker 1: called the ceremony. And that's some real like double speak

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Speaker 1: going on there. Um. But divorced women, gay people, you know, academics,

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Speaker 1: they either are strung up on the wall and sort

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Speaker 1: of killed in public, or they're sent to what they

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Speaker 1: call the colonies, which is a nuclear waste land. So

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Speaker 1: it's a scary situation. Um, but that's the sort of

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Speaker 1: rundown of the plot of the show. And important to

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Speaker 1: note that the reason these women have been turned into

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Speaker 1: wounds essentially is because there's a total lack of of

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Speaker 1: fertility that becomes rampant. Yeah. So this lack of fertility

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Speaker 1: means nobody's having babies, and reasons for that is left unknown.

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Speaker 1: It's an environmental reason, like they allude to a few

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Speaker 1: things like the plastics in the water have made them

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Speaker 1: not able to have kids or something. Everyone. Yeah, most women, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right, most men are not able to have kids.

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Speaker 1: In those women are not able to get pregnant. So

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Speaker 1: the very few women who are are basically kidnapped and

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Speaker 1: turned into handmaids, which in this case is indentured you know,

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Speaker 1: servitude type. And then there are wives of these commanders

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Speaker 1: who don't necessarily need to be reproductive, but they are

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Speaker 1: part of the system of very similar to cast systems,

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Speaker 1: which there are different levels of classes of people and

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Speaker 1: women included who are treated very differently in this system

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Speaker 1: of oppression. Right, so older women who are no longer fertile. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think there are the Martha's, well, some of a

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Speaker 1: lot of people are sent off to the colonies. They're

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Speaker 1: camps like a lot of people. And then Martha's are

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Speaker 1: women who are kind of like the s s. I

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Speaker 1: can't help but drop parallels. Okay, so they're these are

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Speaker 1: self policing, and by self policing, I mean women policing

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Speaker 1: other women. So Martha's are basically armed forces, controlling, commanding,

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Speaker 1: training the hand aids. And then they are what are

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Speaker 1: the wives called? Do they have a name? Commander's Wives? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they wear teal. I just think of them as the

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Speaker 1: teal ladies. Yeah, Chrissy Teagan, who I feel like we

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Speaker 1: talked about a lot. She's had a great tweet that

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Speaker 1: was a picture of a long green dress with really

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Speaker 1: long sleeves and she said, the commander will love this.

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Speaker 1: So the tal ladies and then all the handmaids wear

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Speaker 1: red and heavily and like heavily combined with religious speech

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Speaker 1: and very structured lives for these women. They can't go

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Speaker 1: anywhere alone, they can't read, they can't gather in groups.

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Speaker 1: They have to walk in twos. And what I think

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Speaker 1: is fascinating about the show is the way that it

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Speaker 1: plays on this idea that you never know who you're

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Speaker 1: talking to. If they're an eye, they're gonna if they're

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Speaker 1: gonna wrap you out for you know, doing something the

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Speaker 1: wrong way, And so you're never quite sure who to try,

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Speaker 1: who to trust. And so I thought the relationship between

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Speaker 1: um off Fred and um what's her name, the character's name,

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Speaker 1: but they both think the other is this like pious?

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Speaker 1: This pious? You know, because some women have bought into

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Speaker 1: this system? Oh yes, oh yes, um. But yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: interesting how it how the show uses shows womanhood in

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Speaker 1: terms of it being sometimes you can't trust other women.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes other women have bought into it. Sometimes other women,

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Speaker 1: Like there's a really compelling woman who has sort of

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Speaker 1: bought into it because she used she's like a former addict,

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Speaker 1: and she said, you know you probably my life isn't

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Speaker 1: gonna get any better. You probably had a good job

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Speaker 1: and shop the answer apology, My life is not like that,

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Speaker 1: was not like that. This is a better situation for me,

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Speaker 1: which is hard to believe. But there you had it.

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Speaker 1: That's such a good point. So we could go all

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Speaker 1: day in talking about the intricacies and like the summary

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Speaker 1: of this intensely amazing and rich um program. I need

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Speaker 1: to just as a disclaimer say that I never read

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Speaker 1: the Margaret Margaret Atwood book Render Share of This that

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Speaker 1: this is based on. So I know the rendition of

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Speaker 1: this as told through Hulu. You read the book many

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Speaker 1: years ago. I read the book in high school. I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people did. Yeah, it was it

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Speaker 1: was I also I went to Catholic high schools. It

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Speaker 1: was really interesting. Yeah, reading about a fun a really

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Speaker 1: heavy fundamentalist religious takeover of a government while you're in

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Speaker 1: Catholic school was an interesting situation. So I know the

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Speaker 1: show sounds really far fetched. But according to Margaret Atwood,

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Speaker 1: she's often talking about how she based this on things

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Speaker 1: that have happened in real life. Um. She says, Handmaid's

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Speaker 1: Tale is not a fantasy. It is a reality based book.

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Speaker 1: I call it DJ in reality condensing reality into a

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Speaker 1: into a mash up. And so I mean I think

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Speaker 1: that she it's this is her interpretation of of what's happening.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know that all the things that happened

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Speaker 1: in the book are basic reality. Yeah, that's I have.

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Speaker 1: I've raised my eyebrows at that, thinking like, okay, where

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Speaker 1: in the world are women's like the wives holding the

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Speaker 1: Handmaids down? For the men she basically raped them and

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Speaker 1: intend taking part in this. I don't I don't know

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Speaker 1: where that's happening, but I think her broader point is,

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Speaker 1: look at what happened in the seventeenth century with Puritans

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Speaker 1: settling America. Look at what has happened in the past

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Speaker 1: thirty years alone in Afghanistan, where women went from having

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Speaker 1: significant rights to a culture that of of modesty as

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Speaker 1: an oppression, you know, and and religious extremism. Um. That

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Speaker 1: has completely transformed the role of women in Afghanistan society too,

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Speaker 1: in Romania, where decreased seven seventy dealt with a plummeting

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Speaker 1: birth rate in the nineteen sixties by outlawing the use

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Speaker 1: of contraception and abortion. Like this is what was so

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Speaker 1: terrifying to me watching the show were the flashbacks which

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Speaker 1: I heard weren't in the book, right right, Um, I

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Speaker 1: completely agree. It's these little I mean, people can argue

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Speaker 1: about whether or not this is you know, possible situation,

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Speaker 1: but asked someone who works at the at the intersection

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Speaker 1: of um, you know, politics and reproductive health, I can

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Speaker 1: tell you that this is it's not it's not untrue

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Speaker 1: that we are living at a time where attacks on

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Speaker 1: women's health and reproductive freedom and body autonomy is being threatened.

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Speaker 1: But it's absolutely a true fact, and I can I

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Speaker 1: think the flashbacks make the point that it happens bit

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Speaker 1: by bit by bit, and we don't really notice, and

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Speaker 1: we're so overwhelmed by it that wen there. We don't

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Speaker 1: even watch the news. It's too much. It's this idea

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Speaker 1: of it's totally rational to be a little bit complacent

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Speaker 1: as your rights are rolled back and chiseled away on

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Speaker 1: the slippery slope to watching a democracy crumble. And that's

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Speaker 1: the other part of this that you know, democracies are

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Speaker 1: not guaranteed. We know this. Many other countries you know

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Speaker 1: that have had longer, uh serving democracies than our government

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Speaker 1: have crumbled, have collapsed. We've seen governments crumble, and I

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Speaker 1: never really fathomed what that could look like because I

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Speaker 1: have the privilege of living in the United States in

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Speaker 1: the past twenty nine years where we haven't seen that happen.

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Speaker 1: And it just makes it so palpable what it might

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Speaker 1: look like to slowly have your rights rolled back to

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Speaker 1: the point where a government coup could transform your own

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Speaker 1: geographic reality, and the inability to escape that region you know,

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Speaker 1: that's the refugee experience to right, Um, it's terrifying. And

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Speaker 1: I do think I mean people and we'll get into

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Speaker 1: this a little bit later, but people pushed back on

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Speaker 1: the idea that everyone was calling the show timely in

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Speaker 1: the age of Trump, and I think there might be

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Speaker 1: credence there, but I don't think it's incorrect that we

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Speaker 1: are living at a time with our attacks on women's

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Speaker 1: body autonomy and that that kind of thing could happen incrementally.

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Speaker 1: And when you say body autonomy, what do you mean

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Speaker 1: by that? I mean the ability to make choices for

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Speaker 1: your for your own body, yourself. And so if you

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Speaker 1: live in certain states, you don't have the choice to

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Speaker 1: go to Planned Parenthood and get an abortion because the

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Speaker 1: government has closed down your clinic. Yeah, but by virtue

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Speaker 1: of the practical application of that so called right, which

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Speaker 1: was supposedly one by the way right in the courts

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies Roe v. Way it was supposed

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Speaker 1: to put that issue to rest. But a right that

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Speaker 1: is constrained by practical UH legislation that has made it

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Speaker 1: impossible for clinics to actually be abortion providers, which they've

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Speaker 1: done state by state as many ways as they can.

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Speaker 1: Means that this is a right that's in theory only

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Speaker 1: and does not apply to all women equally. I think

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Speaker 1: this is part of the reason why intersexual feminism is

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Speaker 1: so important, because our victories of feminism, like reproductive freedom

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Speaker 1: have not been equally applied to all or haven't been

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Speaker 1: equally realized for all women. So if you look at geography,

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Speaker 1: if you look at race, if you look at class

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Speaker 1: or or economic security, when you look at those intersections

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Speaker 1: of gender and all of those things, not all women's

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Speaker 1: experiences are the same. Not all women have that right

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Speaker 1: in real life totally. And I think that's so important

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Speaker 1: to notice. Also, things like legislation that says, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: if you want to exercise your constitutional or your supreme

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Speaker 1: predicted right to get an abortion, we have to give

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Speaker 1: you a transnational ultrasound for no medical reason. You know,

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Speaker 1: things like that. It is it's so creative, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's what the show illustrates, that these things they're

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Speaker 1: not medically sound, or they're not done for your own safety.

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Speaker 1: They can make you think they're done for your own safety,

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Speaker 1: but it's not. And that's what it's all about. It's

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Speaker 1: about control. It's about control, and it's about seeing women

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Speaker 1: not as human beings but as vehicles for for life,

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Speaker 1: for vehicles for someone else to create. Right, That's what

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Speaker 1: was so chilling about the way they talked about women's

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Speaker 1: bodies in The Handmaid's Tale and the way that women,

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Speaker 1: the handmaid's bodies were used like livestock truly, I mean

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Speaker 1: they used cattle frauds and yeah, exactly, and you know

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Speaker 1: how I feel about the whole meaning mystery in this

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Speaker 1: world anyway, So the idea that women were seen as

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Speaker 1: in this very benevolent way, some of their torture, some

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Speaker 1: of their rape, some of their oppression was veiled in

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Speaker 1: this God ordained sort of religious rephrasing and reframing benevolence

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Speaker 1: of God has given you this gift. You should feel

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Speaker 1: very lucky. You have the privilege to be a handmaid

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Speaker 1: because God has shined kindly upon you. What like open

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Speaker 1: is the fruit or whatever? Yeah, may the Lord open.

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Speaker 1: It's like every time I heard that, I was like,

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Speaker 1: please stop talking and metaphors about you know, your vagina.

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Speaker 1: Can I say that, you can say that, I can

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Speaker 1: say that. It's just come on, people like, this is

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Speaker 1: a woman, this is her body. She is an agent

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Speaker 1: of her own body, but that is so stripped from

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Speaker 1: the Handmaids and I think, um, what's your name, Moss,

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Speaker 1: Catherine MOSSA, thank you, Elizabeth Mosta such a prof down

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Speaker 1: job as an actress in this in showing what the

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Speaker 1: psychological trauma of being ripped of your personhood looks like,

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Speaker 1: of being stripped away and made to feel like you're

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Speaker 1: not a human being. Yeah, And that's one of the

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Speaker 1: things that I think on the show is so salient,

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Speaker 1: is how things like jokes, how things like you know,

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Speaker 1: playing scrabble, How these things remind her getting a magazine,

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Speaker 1: These things remind her of her life before and what

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Speaker 1: it was like to be a person, when it was

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Speaker 1: like to have opinions, and what it was like to

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Speaker 1: you know, be able to express those opinions. And that's

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Speaker 1: something that it's completely stripped away from her life as

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Speaker 1: a handmaid. Yes, so I think they should talk more

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Speaker 1: about some of the inner workings of Gilliad Race, the

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Speaker 1: role of women. After a quick break and a word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsor and Rebecca and we were just getting

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Speaker 1: kind of fired up about this really intense show, Handmaid's Tale.

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Speaker 1: Um one of of things that is so fascinating about

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Speaker 1: the show is the role of women and how women

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Speaker 1: are really architects of this very anti woman oppressive system.

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Speaker 1: You have folks like Mrs Waterford, who her viral book

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Speaker 1: about women's rights is what made this system kind of

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Speaker 1: possible in the first place. Yeah. Um, you have women

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Speaker 1: like aunt Lydia, who is very cruel but also weirdly

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Speaker 1: can be kind of loving in a kind of way,

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Speaker 1: like she seems to be the only patronizing patrick patronizing um,

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Speaker 1: but certainly as a woman who is architect or an

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Speaker 1: agent of keeping this anti woman system alive. Um. And

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Speaker 1: it really that reminds me so much of reality, because

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Speaker 1: you actually do see women who are kind of architects

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Speaker 1: of the oppression of other women. Like think about you know,

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Speaker 1: folks like women against feminism, like people who loudly talk

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Speaker 1: about why they don't need feminism. Think about folks like,

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Speaker 1: you know, women in the Trump administration who are helping

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Speaker 1: to in a very literal way, helping the takeaways of women.

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Speaker 1: Um here in America. I don't think it's I think

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Speaker 1: it's true to life that women have a role in

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Speaker 1: the oppression of other women sometimes definitely and I feel

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Speaker 1: like I think of the cast system in India as

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Speaker 1: an example of how class can sometimes trump gender in

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Speaker 1: in drawing those boundaries between us versus them. So there's

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Speaker 1: very little solidarity and common identity shared between Lydia between

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Speaker 1: this is Waterford, between a handmaid and between the cook

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Speaker 1: you know in the house, Like yeah, sure, they share

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Speaker 1: the same gendered experience, they share the same oppression in

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Speaker 1: some ways. You know, even Mrs Waterford is not getting

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Speaker 1: invited into you know, her opinion is not really welcome

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Speaker 1: in the political arena. But they lord over each other,

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Speaker 1: you see at different points in time, when um Mrs

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Speaker 1: Waterford is feeling shut out of the making process, she

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Speaker 1: penalizes offer it right, she she lashes out, and she

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Speaker 1: sort of says, well, at least I can lord over

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Speaker 1: this other person. And it's interesting how intersectionality comes back

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Speaker 1: into play here because in that sort of um the womanhood,

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Speaker 1: that common denominator is less salient definitely the other differences

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Speaker 1: of power and privilege. Well, and I think you see

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Speaker 1: that so much in the criticisms around the show and

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Speaker 1: race and how race is sort of completely erased in

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Speaker 1: the show. Um So in the book, the only way

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Speaker 1: that race. Where they comes up is that they say

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Speaker 1: that all the blacks have been sent back to Africa

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Speaker 1: quote unquote, and then um, and so that's like the

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Speaker 1: only race component of the book. What a convenient way

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Speaker 1: to just not have to She's like, I'm an author,

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Speaker 1: I can do what I want. I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: simplify this entire plotline by forgetting about women in this

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Speaker 1: like very minority position of race or religion. It's like,

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Speaker 1: there there is an artist who, um doesn't know how

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Speaker 1: to draw hands until they always draw characters with hands

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Speaker 1: and pockets because throughout the deal with it, just get

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Speaker 1: rid of them hands always in pockets. That's great. Yeah uh.

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Speaker 1: And so the show has what they call color blind casting,

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Speaker 1: where there are black characters but the race is not

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Speaker 1: mentioned or does not come up. And so one of

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Speaker 1: the actresses is Samara Wiley, who you might know as

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Speaker 1: Poussee who are just the new Black who I am

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Speaker 1: like deeply, deeply obsessed with and think everything everything she

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Speaker 1: does is sunshine to me. I follow her on Instagram

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Speaker 1: and I'm like first comment every time, Yes, way to

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Speaker 1: go to the beach. I love her so much. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so she's a handmaid, and they don't really

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Speaker 1: explain are the handmade are would a black handmaid be

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Speaker 1: a handmaid for a white commander. I don't think there

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Speaker 1: are white, are black or non white commanders, but there

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Speaker 1: are non white men, like there are non white guards,

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Speaker 1: there are non white drivers and stuff. So it's not

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Speaker 1: clear to me how, how or if race is playing

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Speaker 1: a role in this situation. Well, the way that those

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Speaker 1: behind the Hulu series described their decision there was by saying, well,

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Speaker 1: this is a post racial society, which I find a

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Speaker 1: little bit comical and like kind of a huge cop out.

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Speaker 1: So you're telling me that we've regressed when it comes

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Speaker 1: to gender, but we are somehow woke and tolerant and

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Speaker 1: inclusive on race, like those two things could ever coexist

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Speaker 1: throughout history. I loved this article um in The Undefeated

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Speaker 1: by Saya Nadia McDonald um. She says, so Gilead is

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Speaker 1: post racial because the human race is facing extinction, and

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Speaker 1: that prompted Americans to get over several hundred years worth

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Speaker 1: of racist education and social conditioning that depicted blacks is

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Speaker 1: inferior and less than human because Jesus, you know, I

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Speaker 1: I have our time. By that that would be the case.

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Speaker 1: That seems really unlikely for me to swallow that because

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Speaker 1: the oppressive government took over and women are now less

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Speaker 1: than human. We were all we're all we're all kumbaya

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Speaker 1: roll kumbay on the race front. I don't buy that

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Speaker 1: at all, but the show would have you believe that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I feel like, I mean, I see the intent

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Speaker 1: here though. They were trying to be inclusive in their casting,

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Speaker 1: but it really required more creative energy around the storyline,

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Speaker 1: don't you think. Yeah, I mean that's what the producers

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Speaker 1: of the show have said that they you know, when

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Speaker 1: Samia Widy walks into a casting room, you cast her

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Speaker 1: because she's beautiful and amazing and talented and smart and

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Speaker 1: please call me. But I'm just kidding. That sounded creepy.

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Speaker 1: I like it called the show. Oh my god, I

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Speaker 1: would I would. I would die to see her and

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Speaker 1: freak out. I would die of happiness. I would die that.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to try to make it. Um But yeah,

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Speaker 1: so and part of me gets that, And I actually

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Speaker 1: love as a woman of color. I actually love when

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Speaker 1: casting directors say we casted for the best person. Um.

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Speaker 1: I saw that with Louie Louis Taka his on the show,

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Speaker 1: his kids are clearly white, and when they show their

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Speaker 1: their biological mother, she is a woman of color, and

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Speaker 1: they don't explain how like what the situation is, and

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Speaker 1: he just said, yeah, she was the best person for

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Speaker 1: the roles to be cast her. Um. It also happened

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Speaker 1: in the one of my favorite movies, The Craft. Um

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Speaker 1: the character the black character in that movie, she wasn't

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Speaker 1: written to be a black woman, and she just came

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Speaker 1: in and was the best and so they put her in.

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Speaker 1: So I, on the one hand, like that, but also

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Speaker 1: I think it warrant a little bit more explanation or

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Speaker 1: a little bit more of teasing out I think for

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Speaker 1: a show like Handmaid Stale, I agree completely. And I

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Speaker 1: would add to that that there is another problem with

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Speaker 1: race that's not dealt with in the show, but it's

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Speaker 1: sort of omnipresent that no. Uh. Burlatski at The Verge

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Speaker 1: wrote about um that what they're really doing, in addition

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Speaker 1: to eracing race and and sort of people of color

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Speaker 1: from the story narrative, from their race being significant in

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Speaker 1: their characters, is they're actually using the history of oppression

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Speaker 1: that stems from very real institutions of oppression like slavery

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Speaker 1: in the United States, and very real oppressive behaviors and

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Speaker 1: customs and histories in the Middle East in Afghanistan, and

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Speaker 1: the use and inclusion of female genital mulation, and the

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Speaker 1: inclusion of stoning as a form of punishment of of

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Speaker 1: of a death sentence via stoning. All of these things

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Speaker 1: happen in this world, oftentimes in our lifetimes two actual

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Speaker 1: women of color. But here we are watching The Handmaid's

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Speaker 1: Tale repackaging the history of black people, the history of

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Speaker 1: of women of color, to provoke empathy for the suffering

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Speaker 1: of white people. I think it's such a legitimate criticism.

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Speaker 1: Right in the nineteen sixties and seventies, Mexican and Mexican

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Speaker 1: American women were went into hospitals for c sections and

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Speaker 1: got sterilized without their consent. The same thing happened to

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Speaker 1: black women in this country not even that long ago.

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Speaker 1: And so, you know, people have made the point that

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Speaker 1: the kinds of really really oppressive systems that these women

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Speaker 1: are living under, things like not being able to gather

428
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: in groups, not being able to read public spectacles of

429
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: their of their deaths, that happened that happened in America

430
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: to black women and black men. The fact that that

431
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: they're using these very real his, these very real horrors

432
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 1: that have historical precedent for women of color as a

433
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: storytelling device. I think it's fair to ask whether that's okay. Yeah,

434
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 1: And I wonder what the answer is because I read

435
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: article and was left thinking, well, if we have a

436
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: predominantly white audience in the United States and you're using

437
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: historical realities but with white characters to engender wokeness, to

438
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: trigger fear, to create a sense of we all better

439
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: wake up America, we better make sure or write down

440
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 1: rolled back, do the ends justify the means? And I'm

441
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: not saying they do, But I don't think it's fair

442
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 1: to say, like, this is definitely all terrible and bad,

443
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: like you're suffering, uh from this one historical group of

444
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: your I don't mean any one group, but whatever this

445
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, this this suffering from history. Can that not

446
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: be repurposed? Can that not be reassigned? Is it not

447
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: okay to just not include any women of color as

448
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: victims in the show? And I think that's a that's

449
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: a stretch. In fact, I hear what you're what you're saying,

450
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: speaking of Samera Wiley, I mean, that is the argument

451
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: that folks make about Orangers The New Black where the

452
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 1: creator there mind that show for a lot of spoiler

453
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: alert if you haven't watched that either, but the creator

454
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: mind a lot of real women who are really in

455
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: prison their stories. Um when when spoiler alert, when Samera

456
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: Wiley dies on the show that she says, I can't breathe,

457
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 1: and when when asked about this, the creator of the

458
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: show said, it was really important to me to highlight

459
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: the stories of women who were often marginalized, women who

460
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: were behind bars. And people wouldn't do that if it

461
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: wasn't people would not scrapple with those stories if it

462
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: didn't have you know, Piper, Piper, Piper as the as

463
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: the white as the white protagonist who was telling these stories.

464
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: But it is different because she is showing she created

465
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 1: I mean, we were all sobbing watching that character, Samera's character.

466
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: I mean, that was like the most terrific episode of

467
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: anything I've ever watched, maybe until Handmaid's Dale came out.

468
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: But she has a black beloved character die and makes

469
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: us all weep over her. And that's that's justified. That's defensible,

470
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, that's different. I hear

471
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: what you're saying. I don't know. I just think it's

472
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 1: I think I think it's complicated. I honestly, I see

473
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: both sides. I guess. I know a lot of folks

474
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 1: were accusing her of torture, porn or something like, you know,

475
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: like let's just show a bunch of you know, really

476
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: sweet women of color die and have it be like

477
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 1: on a graphic almost in the I understand an argument.

478
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: I also see the argument of wanting to uplift these

479
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: stories to inspire change, and the author behind or just

480
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,239
Speaker 1: the New Black the book has actually been involved in

481
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: the real Piper has been involved in prison issues and

482
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: prison activism, so, you know, shout out for that. UM.

483
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: I think it's important to talk through some of the

484
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: issues that kind of have real world impact from the show.

485
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 1: When we come back from a quick break from our

486
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: sponsor and we're back, we're just talking about some of

487
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: the nitty gritty of the show Handmaid's Tale. And one

488
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: of the things that I think is so fascinating about

489
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: this show is that in real world, you know, not

490
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 1: in Gilead, here in Earth, UM, what is currently the

491
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 1: United States of America, folks have been using um handmaids

492
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: as a form of protest against handmaids like outfit, outfit

493
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 1: a cosplay. So um, when Trump went to be more

494
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 1: of a thing protest cosplay, I like it. I like it. Um.

495
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 1: So when Trump went to Poland, lots of women dressed

496
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: as handmaids and the red outfits and the and the

497
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 1: white winged head covering to protest his visit. Here in

498
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: the America, women rocked their wings and red outfits to

499
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: protest Trump's trump Care, which defunds planned parenthood. They gathered

500
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill wearing their outfits to sort of send

501
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: a signal that they that this wasn't okay. Do you

502
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: think that's been effective? Do you think that is accurate? Like?

503
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: I I almost see that as a symbol for is

504
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: it is it fair to use the metaphor of a

505
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: red herring? Right? It's like be aware, it's like sending

506
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: in a mixing all my metaphors here, but canary into

507
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: the coal mine? Right? Like? Does that apply here? This

508
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: idea of a warning shot for women to wake up

509
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: and make sure that rights as they're being rolled back,

510
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: especially as it pertains to women's reproductive rights, are being

511
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: associated with handmaid's Tales dystopian future because it's it definitely

512
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: seems very far away and very implausible. But by evoking

513
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: the handmaid, you know image, what they're saying is this

514
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: is what could happen. I see both sides of that argument. Um.

515
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: Writing at The Guardian, Jessa Crispin is like, not sure

516
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: at all that we should be associating Handmaid's Tale with

517
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: with Trump and and things like that. She writes, if

518
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: this propaganda is not being used to sell us a war,

519
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: we should be interested in what it is selling us instead.

520
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: That so many women are willing to compare their own

521
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: political situation living under a democratically elected president with no

522
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: overwhelming religious ideology with the character's position as sexual slaves

523
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: and baby incubators for the ruling class shows us that

524
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: it is always satisfying to position yourself as an as

525
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: the oppressed, bravely struggling against oppression. UM, So I don't

526
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: necessarily like, wow, that was pretty harsh. Yeah, I want

527
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: to go that far right. I I sort of get

528
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: what she's saying, just that we it's fair to level

529
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: side and ask where we are actually at. But the

530
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: show makes the point that it happens incrementally so I

531
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: don't think anyone is saying we are living in giving

532
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: I get I bet they are, though, Um and Jess

533
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: as saying, your victimhood, while it might be real, is

534
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: nowhere near the victimhood of institutionalized, you know, oppression at

535
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: the extent that was being a handman correct, which is

536
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: definitely fair, right, I think that's fair. I also think

537
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: that the point that the show is making is that

538
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: we should be stay staying alert about these things. I

539
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: think it's also fair, and so I don't think it's

540
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: I don't think it's not fair to draw parallels, because

541
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: I definitely see parallels. Um, but I think it's it's

542
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: worth it to take a step back and not necessarily

543
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: go overborn. What I always come back to is the vigilance,

544
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: like the lack of vigilance that led to this past

545
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: electoral outcome. Most people thought Trump couldn't be elected. Most

546
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: people didn't say Trump would be elected. Most most of

547
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: America assumed it was a shoe in for Hillary. I

548
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: think back to the coffeehouse scenes between Elizabeth Moss and Wiley, So,

549
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: the two of them getting coffee at that same coffee

550
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: shop where they were called sluts and totally disrespected by

551
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: uh men's rights activist member or just a total misogynistic

552
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: dude who didn't see them as full human beings to them.

553
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: The presence of paramilitary people are military presence that we

554
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: start to see on the street to that same coffee

555
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: shop being the center of a gun you know, a riot, right,

556
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: remember how they were protesting Allah Women's March style Black

557
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: Lives Matter style. Where they're I mean, they're there. I

558
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: absolutely have seen in real life my own eyes a

559
00:31:54,480 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: intense paramilitary forces just on the street, tanks exactly. So

560
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: then the government takes this incredibly harsh crackdown that was

561
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: the beginning of the coup that was the beginning of Gileads,

562
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, uprising taking over of Boston, and you can

563
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: just see from the same perspective, from the same scene geographically,

564
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: this one coffee shop, just how incremental and how much

565
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: your life can change. And that to me really sounded

566
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: like what a lot of Afghanistan has gone through in

567
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: the past thirty forty years. And being in your own lifetime,

568
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: in your own neighborhood, watching your government change, I mean how,

569
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: I mean, how do you even survive? How does your

570
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: identity survive? Through that. I went into this episode ready

571
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: to pump the brakes on the Gilead comparisons. Now I'm

572
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: packing up, Go bad, you're a prepper. I'm gonna leave

573
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: today the studio and gonna go back. I love it.

574
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: Brad and I have long had a zombie apocalypse plan

575
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: in place, just in case my friend and I we

576
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: have a situation if we are ever in a horror

577
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: movie situation and one of us gets out, we have

578
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: a pat But if you go back for the other one,

579
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: I'll go back for you. Emily, I'll go back for Yeah.

580
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: All right, you heard it here first. All right, let's

581
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: let's wrap this baby up. This is I'm dying to

582
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: hear from our fans and what they thought about this.

583
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are more nuances. I could talk all

584
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: day about this, and um, I'm curious to hear whether

585
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: y'all think it's appropriate to compare and what you learn?

586
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: What did you take away from the show? And also

587
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: what have you heard bridget about the future of the

588
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: show from Who is Prospective? So two exciting things. What

589
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: already got picked up for a season two? Because lord

590
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: knows that Cliffhanger left me one more? Um, but so one,

591
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: they've already made a promise to tackle Race more um

592
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: in the second season. The show producer says that he's

593
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: had a lot of time to rethink what's going on

594
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: with Race, and he really wants to tackle it because

595
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: you know, he wants to be UM. Yeah, so great,

596
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: it is great. Um. And then a little uh, kind

597
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: of juicy morsel her my hip hop fans out there,

598
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: Margaret Atwood wants Drake to cameo on season two, so

599
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: we'll see if that happened because he's Canadian and they

600
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: get to Canada. Oh okay, that makes a little more sense.

601
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: And also she's a huge drink fan. No, I'm kidding

602
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: actually right now, if you read this it's an interview

603
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 1: with them, it really actually sounds like she loves Drake

604
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: and it's like, why did you Strake come up on

605
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,479
Speaker 1: the show so much? We never intend to, like talk

606
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: through not even a huge fan. I know well that

607
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: this is what happens. Every time we mentioned Shake, We're like,

608
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 1: do you like him? And we're like, I don't know, man,

609
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,720
Speaker 1: all right, So I think I think we can put

610
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: this chapter, at least this season of Handmaid's Tale to

611
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: rest for right now, I am dying to hear from

612
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: all y'all on what you thought about Margaret Atwood's book

613
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 1: about the Hulu rendition, what you learned through watching Handmaid's Tale,

614
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 1: So make sure to hit us up with your thoughts

615
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff Podcast on Twitter, Stuff Mom Never Told

616
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 1: You on Instagram, and of course we always love receiving

617
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: your emails at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.

618
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: Bridget any last words, I think that's it. Just pack

619
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: your go back, get your passports, and does always know

620
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: lete t beastdis car bordorum