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Speaker 1: Nicolas Maduro is trying to re elect as a president

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Speaker 1: in a totally unfair election. What the international community can

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Speaker 1: do to find a democratic way that helped Venezuelan people.

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Speaker 2: From Futuro Media and PRX it's Latino USA, I'm Maria

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Speaker 2: jo Josa Today journalist Roberto Denis and his work uncovering

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Speaker 2: a corruption case in Venezuela with close ties to the

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Speaker 2: United States. Roberto Denis is a Venezuelan investigative journalist and

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Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen, he began looking into a huge government program.

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Speaker 2: That program delivered food boxes to millions of low income

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Speaker 2: families suffering a country wide food shortage, but soon Venezuelan

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Speaker 2: started complaining about the poor quality of the food. Roberto

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Speaker 2: found that the contractor behind this program was Alex Saab,

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Speaker 2: a Colombian businessman with close ties to Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro,

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Speaker 2: the man who succeeded Hugo Chavis during the Maduro administration,

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Speaker 2: Sab earned millions of dollars in state contracts. Roberto's work

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Speaker 2: not only uncovered widespread corruption in the Maduro government, it

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Speaker 2: also revealed the key role Sab played in that story.

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Speaker 2: But not without consequences. In twenty seventeen, Alex Sab sued

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Speaker 2: Roberto for defamation. Roberto and his editors work at Armando

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Speaker 2: dot info, which is a news site, and it's the

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Speaker 2: place that published this investigation. They ended up leaving Venezuela

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Speaker 2: out of fear of more retaliations. However, the story that

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Speaker 2: Roberto initially uncovered would end up taking a new spin.

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Speaker 2: In twenty twenty, Alex Sab was detained in the Republic

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Speaker 2: of cabovert and later he was extradited to the United States,

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Speaker 2: accused of diverting three hundred and fifty million dollars from

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Speaker 2: Venezuela through the United States. SAB's arrest and eventual trial

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Speaker 2: in the US would lead to more revelations of his

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Speaker 2: close ties to Maduro. But while Roberto was getting ready

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Speaker 2: to cover the trial, something unexpected happened.

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Speaker 3: I we secured the release of every American being held

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Speaker 3: in Venezuela. An addition to that, Venezuela thus far is

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Speaker 3: keeping their commitment toward the Democratic election.

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Speaker 2: In December of twenty twenty three, President Joe Biden and

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Speaker 2: President Nicolas Maduro agreed to a prisoner swap. The US

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Speaker 2: exchanged Alex sab for ten US citizens who had been

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Speaker 2: imprisoned in Venezuela. Maduro, who's been in power for over

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Speaker 2: a decade now, said he would allow for fair presidential elections,

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Speaker 2: but the elections scheduled for this July twenty eighth already

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Speaker 2: look at risk.

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Speaker 4: Tonight, political tensions between the United States and Venezuela escalating

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Speaker 4: once again over concerns that the South American country won't

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Speaker 4: hold free elections. US taking measures against Venezuela after its

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Speaker 4: highest court blocked the presidential candidacy of opposition front runner

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Speaker 4: Maria Corina Machado on Friday.

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Speaker 2: Since the year two thousand, the Venezuelan migrant population in

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Speaker 2: the US has increased by just under six hundred percent.

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Speaker 5: The Venezuelan crisis is the biggest humanitarian crisis that most

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Speaker 5: Americans have never heard of. We know about Syrians leaving

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Speaker 5: because of the war, we know about Ukrainians leaving because

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Speaker 5: of the Russian invasion, but roughly the same number of

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Speaker 5: people have left Venezuela.

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Speaker 2: And if you missed it, dear listener, this migration has

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Speaker 2: a lot to do with the continuation of the Maduro government.

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Speaker 2: Maduro's administration has seen high inflation rates, waves of protests,

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Speaker 2: and shortages of food and medicine. The US has tried

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Speaker 2: different methods of putting pressure on Maduro, mostly through the

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Speaker 2: imposition of economic sanctions like limiting Venezuelan government oil sales.

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Speaker 2: But while the US claims these sanctions target the government,

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Speaker 2: studies by US institutions show that the largest impact is

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Speaker 2: being felt by the average Venezuelan citizen. Roberto Denice continues

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Speaker 2: to report on his home country of Venezuela, but now

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Speaker 2: he's doing it from Colombia, despite the fact that he

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Speaker 2: faces continuous harassment from the Venezuelan government. Leaving Venezuela, Maduro's

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Speaker 2: government has accused the investigative journalist of inciting hate and

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Speaker 2: has issued an arrest warrant with a twenty year prison sentence.

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Speaker 2: In May, Roberto's work into alex Saabs' ties to Maduro

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Speaker 2: was featured in a frontline PBS documentary.

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Speaker 1: Lectoria Alexa Nojuenta comund Rejiminszoftian and Employer.

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Speaker 5: This is a story of corruption of kleptocracy on a

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Speaker 5: scale that the world.

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Speaker 6: Has not seen.

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Speaker 2: Roberto Denis recently spoke with our co executive producer Penile Ramidez,

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Speaker 2: who's also an investigative journalist and has been covering Latin

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Speaker 2: America for many years. They spoke about Roberto's investigation about

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Speaker 2: the role the United States had in this corruption scandal

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Speaker 2: and the upcoming elections in Venezuela. Here's their conversation now.

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Speaker 7: Hello Roberto, welcome to Latino USA. Thank you for having me,

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Speaker 7: Sir Roberto. As you know, over the past decade, more

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Speaker 7: than seven million people have like Venezuela. Could you please

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Speaker 7: tell our listeners why Venezuelas start looking for a new

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Speaker 7: life in other countries, including the United States.

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Speaker 1: I think that number that you mentioned is the best

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Speaker 1: number to try to explain the bad results of the

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Speaker 1: ugochav government first and then Nicolas Maduro government. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about seven million of Venezuelan people are living abroad that

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Speaker 1: flee the country, especially for social economic reasons. That is

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Speaker 1: something that never happened in the Venezuelan history. Venezuela during

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Speaker 1: a lot of years, even in the twentieth century, Venezuela

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Speaker 1: was a country that received a lot of population from

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Speaker 1: different countries, from Europe first and then from countries like Colombia, Equador, Peru.

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Speaker 1: People that went to Venezuela to try to live there

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Speaker 1: and find a better economical condition than their countries.

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Speaker 7: Venezuela's President Road, which like all the new projects, was

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Speaker 7: built with the country, is fabulous oil income.

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Speaker 1: This lone political process that Venezuela has lived since nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety nine. It is terrible. Venezuela during all of these

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Speaker 1: years started a tremendous social crisis, economical crisis. In the

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Speaker 1: first time in its history, had a hyperinflation, and that

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Speaker 1: is terrible because you get money from your job, but

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Speaker 1: it's like you don't have money because the value of

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Speaker 1: that money is zero. The main industry of Venezuela, it

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Speaker 1: is now in a terrible condition because there are no

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Speaker 1: foreign investments because Venezuela the government decided that the oil

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Speaker 1: operation is just in estate hands. And it is terrible

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Speaker 1: because I think that we have not seen maybe the

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Speaker 1: worst part of this.

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Speaker 7: Well. In May Frontline release documentary which is mainly about

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Speaker 7: you following your work and your investigation into alex A,

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Speaker 7: which is this contractor favorite boat, President Nicolas Maduro, could

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Speaker 7: you tell me how you started investigating saff in the

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Speaker 7: first place, and also what are the main things that

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Speaker 7: you found.

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Speaker 1: You started to investigate this social program that is in

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Speaker 1: Venezuela called CLAP to distribute food to poorest people in Venezuela.

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Speaker 1: In this warehouse, thirty five thousand clap boxes arrived daily.

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Speaker 1: From here they go to nineteen of the twenty four

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Speaker 1: parishes and crackers every two weeks. And I had the

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Speaker 1: information that there were a lot of corruption behind this program.

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Speaker 1: I uncovered in twenty sixteen that alex Ab was the

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Speaker 1: main guy behind this social program and that the food

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Speaker 1: that this guy was important to Venezuela was bad food.

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Speaker 1: I would say that maybe the most important thing that

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Speaker 1: is in the documentary is that this story shows the

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Speaker 1: real nature of Nicolas Maduro's regime, because when Venezuela was

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Speaker 1: living its worth economic and social crisis that we have seen,

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Speaker 1: Nicolas na Duu was thinking only to give contracts to

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Speaker 1: this guy, to give a lot of money, money coming

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Speaker 1: from public funds of the Venezuelan people to alex Ab

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Speaker 1: And maybe the word thing is that part of that

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Speaker 1: money was used to import this bad food.

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Speaker 7: Well, Savi is not even Venezuelan, he is a Colombian man,

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Speaker 7: So why do you think that he became so important

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Speaker 7: for Nicolas Maduro.

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Speaker 1: I'm totally convinced that it's related with money. In the documentary,

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Speaker 1: we interview Michael Knade, the American prosecutor that indicted alex

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Speaker 1: Ab in two thousand nine team for money laundering, and

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Speaker 1: in the documentary you can see that Michael Knad said

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Speaker 1: that alex A admits that all of the contracts that

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Speaker 1: he got, part of the money was going to Nicolas

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Speaker 1: Maduro and Madua's family.

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Speaker 8: During these meetings, alex Sab made it clear to us

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Speaker 8: that he was directly connected and had first person access

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Speaker 8: to Nicholas Matual.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that that is why this guy is important

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Speaker 1: for Nicholas Maduro, because what Maduro has done to try

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Speaker 1: to defend alex Ab is, you know, try to say that, well,

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Speaker 1: alex Ab is a guy that was helping us during

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Speaker 1: the economic crisis, he also was helping Venezuela to try

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Speaker 1: to evade or still convey the American sanctions against Venezuela,

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Speaker 1: and that is totally false. Alex Ab started doing business

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Speaker 1: in Venezuela in two thy eleven. Ugo Chavis was alive

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Speaker 1: when he started and when he got the first contract

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Speaker 1: in Venezuela. But then when Nicolas Maduro became president in

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Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, this guy became in a kind of favored

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Speaker 1: contractor fairs, but then he became child figure behind Nicolas Maduro.

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Speaker 7: If Alex was accused of this widespread corruption inside Venezuela,

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Speaker 7: then why he ended up in the United States.

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Speaker 1: Since twenty fifteen sixteen, there was an investigation that starts

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Speaker 1: in the United States because he was using the US

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Speaker 1: financial system to move the money that he was getting

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Speaker 1: from the Venezuelan government. In twenty nineteen, he was indicted

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Speaker 1: for several charges, but especially one of them was related

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Speaker 1: to money laundering. In twenty twenty, Alexa, after more than

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Speaker 1: a year detained in Cabo Verde, he was traded to

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Speaker 1: United States in October twenty two one. And during all

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Speaker 1: of this process, there was a moment in the trial

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Speaker 1: that the judge ordered to unseal a document, and that

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Speaker 1: document revealed that Alexa was talking with da Agints between

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen and twenty twenty.

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Speaker 6: Well, Alex Sab is believed to know some of Nikolas

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Speaker 6: Maduru's most compromising secrets about corruption and malfeasance. But what

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Speaker 6: Maduro apparently didn't know is that Saab likely turned over

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Speaker 6: much of those secrets years ago to US authorities.

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Speaker 1: For me, the most difficult thing to answer is that

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Speaker 1: why Nicolas Maduro's continues defending him.

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Speaker 7: And that's what we were saying Spanish Labrene and the letters, right,

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Speaker 7: So the million dollar quests.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but I think that Maduru needs to continue in

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Speaker 1: the defending Alexa because for Maduro was very crucial to

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Speaker 1: try to avoid that Alexa face the trial for money

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Speaker 1: London in the United States, because maybe we would know

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Speaker 1: many other things.

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Speaker 7: But then at the very last minute, when many people

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Speaker 7: thought that I will go to prison and potentially will

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Speaker 7: expose this corruption inside the Maduro government, sab is exchange

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Speaker 7: for political prisoners, and he sent back to Venezuela.

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Speaker 1: And he was released on December of last year, twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three.

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Speaker 7: And Maduro welcomes him like this national hero. So why

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Speaker 7: do you think the United States sent back to Venezuela

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Speaker 7: and to Malua.

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Speaker 1: That is a difficult question to answer because even today

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Speaker 1: nobody in the United States has solved it. Nicolas Maduro

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Speaker 1: understood that detained American citizens in Venezuela. It was a

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Speaker 1: kind of important piece to Nego state with the United States.

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Speaker 1: That these American citizens could be exchanged by the one

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Speaker 1: that he wanted, alex A. And for me, what is

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Speaker 1: incredible is that the by the administration decided to change

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Speaker 1: Alexa for these ten American citizens. And it is a

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Speaker 1: very negative message because you have the president of the

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Speaker 1: United States trying to stop a legal investigation. During the

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Speaker 1: history of the United States, we have seen this kind

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Speaker 1: of exchange. But what is incredible here is that different

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Speaker 1: US officers deny that possibility. They always said, well, Alexa,

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Speaker 1: his name is not on the table because this is

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Speaker 1: a judicial case. It's not a political thing. He has

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Speaker 1: to face the US justice. But at the end, this

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Speaker 1: didn't happen.

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Speaker 7: So the US has this long history of putting pressure

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Speaker 7: on Venezuela by imposing sanctions. Do you think, considering all

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Speaker 7: of this, that these sanctions actually work to put pressure

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Speaker 7: on Maduro's government.

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Speaker 1: It is a difficult question. But what is difficult for

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Speaker 1: me as a Venezuela and journalist, as a Venezuelan citizen.

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Speaker 1: If you see what the administration try to do in Venezuela,

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Speaker 1: it didn't work. But if you see what is doing

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration, it seems that it didn't work, and

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Speaker 1: the reality is that the Nicolas Maduro continues in the power.

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Speaker 1: Nicolas Maduro is trying to re elect as a president

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Speaker 1: in a totally unfair election, and we don't have the

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Speaker 1: answer how to what the international community can do to

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Speaker 1: find a democratic way that helped Venezuelan people to solve

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Speaker 1: the crisis and to try to tart a new kind

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Speaker 1: of political era or new political process.

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Speaker 7: Maduro has been in office for eleven years now, So

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Speaker 7: why do you think there is so much attention on

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Speaker 7: the elections schedule for this July twenty eight.

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Speaker 1: Because if Maduro gets the re election, probably the political

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Speaker 1: crisis is going to continue. Probably Venezuela immigration is going

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Speaker 1: to continue, and probably the economical crisis is going to continue.

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Speaker 1: Nicolas Maduro continues detaining political oppositions in Venezuela. Nicolas Maduro

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Speaker 1: didn't accept Maria Corina Machado, the political opposition leader that

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Speaker 1: won last year the primary election between the position, and

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Speaker 1: that is another thing that Maduro shows that he's not

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Speaker 1: interesting in fair elections in Venezuela. You see that there

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Speaker 1: is a lot of people behind the position. You see

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Speaker 1: that there is a kind of new hope for Venezuela

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Speaker 1: and people that try to solve this long crisis in

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Speaker 1: a democratic way. But today I'm not sure how it's

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Speaker 1: going to react Nicholas Maduro in case he lose the election,

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Speaker 1: as all Poles chose.

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Speaker 7: You are covering this election from another country, and you

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Speaker 7: have arrest warrant against you issued by Maduro's government. There

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Speaker 7: was this rate in the house of your parents in characters,

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Speaker 7: your family has been threatened. But why you keep investigating

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Speaker 7: corruption in the Venezuelan government.

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Speaker 1: I think that in every country, but especially in countries

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Speaker 1: like Venezuela, the independent journalism is very important. There is

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Speaker 1: no free press in Venezuela. I understood that when all

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Speaker 1: the institutions of a state like Venezuela are against you,

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Speaker 1: the only way to defend was doing my job, and

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Speaker 1: that is what I decided to do.

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Speaker 7: I want to close with you as a Venezuela and

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Speaker 7: as a person, and I wonder, Roberto, what's your hope

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Speaker 7: for the future of Venezuela.

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Speaker 1: My hope is that Venezuela can start a new political era,

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Speaker 1: a democratic era. For me, it's very sad. You see

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Speaker 1: here in Columbia, where I am living since twenty eighteen

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Speaker 1: John Venezuela and people that could be living in Venezuela,

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Speaker 1: working in Venezuela for their dreams, for their projects. To

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Speaker 1: see that people in other countries suffering, trying to get

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Speaker 1: a minimum conditions to survive to a life in another

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Speaker 1: countries is so sad. My hope is that that maybe

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Speaker 1: the Venezuela can recover and in some way the economical

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Speaker 1: things start to fix, because if you see how big

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Speaker 1: is the economical crisis in Venezuela, that is something that

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Speaker 1: is going to take many, many years to recover. But

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Speaker 1: if we start now a kind of new political area,

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Speaker 1: a new political process, a new democratic path, maybe is

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Speaker 1: going to be the first step to try to going

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Speaker 1: in that direction in the next few years.

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Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Elizabeth lowenval Torres and edited

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Speaker 2: by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. It was mixed by Jjkrubin special

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Speaker 2: thanks to Frontline and the team behind their documentary A

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Speaker 2: Dangerous Assignment Uncovering Corruption in Maduro's Venezuela, which is available

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Speaker 2: on PVS dot org. The Latino USA team also includes

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Speaker 2: Julia Caruso, Jessica Ellis, Victoria Strada Rinaldo, leanus Junior, Stephanie Lebau,

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Speaker 2: Luis Luna or mar Marquez, Marta Martinez, Mike Sargent Saudi

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Speaker 2: and Nancy Truchuillo. I'm your host and co executive producer

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Speaker 2: Maria Jojosa join us again on our next episode. In

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Speaker 2: the meantime, I'll see you on all of our social

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Speaker 2: media and remember Wendy Bye, Yes Bye.

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Speaker 8: Latino USA is made possible in part by the Heising

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Speaker 8: Simons Foundation, unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities more at hsfoundation

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Speaker 8: dot org, The Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the

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Speaker 8: front lines of social change worldwide, and the John D.

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Speaker 8: And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation