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Speaker 1: This is Mesters in Business with Very Renaults on Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: This week, on the podcast, I have an extra special guest.

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Speaker 1: Her name is Kenderson Cassidy and she has had a

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Speaker 1: fascinating career in technology, starting as an analyst in the

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Speaker 1: investment banking group at Merrill Lynch before going west to

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Speaker 1: join a company that ends up getting purchased by Amazon,

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Speaker 1: and she stays at Amazon for a while before leaving

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Speaker 1: UH to join another startup that ends up doing well.

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Speaker 1: She eventually takes a couple of roles at Google Google

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Speaker 1: Maps and then running a couple of other projects Google

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Speaker 1: International Commerce, and from there ends up launching a couple

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Speaker 1: of more startups, all of which that have done very

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Speaker 1: very well. UH. She talks about the process of risk

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Speaker 1: taking and decision making and why you can't think about

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Speaker 1: the risk reward calculus in terms of one big win

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Speaker 1: or lose choice. You have to think about a series

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Speaker 1: of smaller incremental steps that all involve risk and eventually

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Speaker 1: determine the path you take. It's a good framework for

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Speaker 1: both technology and finance. I thought this conversation was quite fascinating,

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Speaker 1: and I found her book to be intriguing as well.

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Speaker 1: Choose Possibility with no further ado My conversation with Sekenderson Cassidy.

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Speaker 1: This is mesters in Business with Very Renaults on Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: My special guest this week is Sekenderson Cassidy. She is

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Speaker 1: a technology executive and serial entrepreneur. Previously she was president

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Speaker 1: of stub Hub. Her new book is Choose Possibility, Take risks,

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Speaker 1: and Thrive even when you fail. Sekenderson Cassidy, Welcome to Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me excited to be here.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about your career, which is really so

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Speaker 1: interesting it it covers everything from UH finance and investing

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Speaker 1: banking to technology. UM, let's begin at the beginning. You

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Speaker 1: started at Merrill Lynch in the early nineties, a great

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Speaker 1: time to start in investment banking. What motivated that decision

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Speaker 1: to go into finance? Um, well, a couple of things.

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Speaker 1: Number One, I'd say the most more intelligent reason was

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Speaker 1: because I wanted to a base in financial literacy and

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Speaker 1: financial analysis, which I thought would be great for any

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Speaker 1: career I had. And then the more emotional reason. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: I was at a top undergraduate business school in Canada

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Speaker 1: and all my friends were doing it, because like, well,

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Speaker 1: if they're doing it, I should be doing to. So

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Speaker 1: in some ways I call I call it a copycat goal.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there are many ways I could have gotten

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Speaker 1: financial literacy, but I was bound and determined to keep

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Speaker 1: pay with my rather competitive colleagues to get a job

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Speaker 1: on Wall Street. So you you head to New York,

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Speaker 1: you started Merrill Lynch. Any formative experiences stay with you

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Speaker 1: years later? What do you most remember from that era? Well,

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Speaker 1: the first is, honestly, just to struggle to get the job,

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Speaker 1: believe it or not. And uh and I say that

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Speaker 1: to people because often we look back on the careers

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Speaker 1: of you know, others and think they're they look so

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Speaker 1: pretty from the outside, but from the inside. It took

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Speaker 1: me a good year plus to get that job. I

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Speaker 1: was rejected by number of banks. Meryl didn't even come

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Speaker 1: to candidate or recruit, and they offered me one of

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Speaker 1: those polite informational letters that said something like, if you're

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Speaker 1: ever in New York City, would be happy to give

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Speaker 1: you fifteen a fifteen minute informational interview. And I remember

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Speaker 1: saying to my father, I'm like, well, what is't that?

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Speaker 1: They just rejected me and he said, well, why don't

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Speaker 1: you take a train ticket and head down to New York.

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Speaker 1: You never know? And um, and I was at the

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Speaker 1: end of my rope. I've been searching for a job

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Speaker 1: for over a year, I said, as I said, determined

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Speaker 1: to at this job and not successful. And I took

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Speaker 1: that train ride in fifteen minutes turned into a three

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Speaker 1: hour interview, and then they accelerated me to the final process. Uh, which,

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Speaker 1: if you know, for investment banks, is very competitive. I

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Speaker 1: came down on a weekend and competed with all the

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Speaker 1: sort of IVY League American kids who had been through

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Speaker 1: rounds of interviews. Undoubtedly, um and I got the job.

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Speaker 1: So it was a pretty sweet, pretty sweet success after

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Speaker 1: a year and a half of trying. But it was

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Speaker 1: very formative for me because it really informed and you know,

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Speaker 1: I guess my view of how often you have to

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Speaker 1: just keep choosing in order to get to the goal.

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Speaker 1: You want keep keep banging away. So so, what what

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Speaker 1: did you do for Meryl when you when you get

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Speaker 1: the job? What was it that they had you do?

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Speaker 1: What were your responsibilities and what was the job like? Well,

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Speaker 1: and I think this is probably the second former of

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Speaker 1: experience I had at meryll Um. So my role with

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Speaker 1: the financial analyst, anybody who maybe has studied finance know

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Speaker 1: that that's really a job where you create pitch books,

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Speaker 1: books with facts and details about different industries. I was

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Speaker 1: in the financial services industry group I was assigned to,

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Speaker 1: and you really you know, create those books or what's

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Speaker 1: called managing directors who go out and pitch you know,

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Speaker 1: large companies on using their services M and A services, I,

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Speaker 1: p O services, what have you. And so the average

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Speaker 1: analysts is spending you know, days and nights softened through

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Speaker 1: the night, toiling to create these perfect pitch books. So

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Speaker 1: I certainly had that experience, but I ended up working

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Speaker 1: for a pretty eclectic young managing director called Henry Michaels.

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Speaker 1: And Henry was you know, as detail orange as they

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Speaker 1: could get, type smoking, you know, definitely capable of driving

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Speaker 1: others crazy. But he took a really deep and early

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Speaker 1: interest in just teaching me about, believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: the savings and loan industry. And I think he found

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Speaker 1: me to be maybe uh rap students. And I freely

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Speaker 1: admit after taking a year to get that job, I

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Speaker 1: was just bound and determined to be successful um at it.

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Speaker 1: So I was you know, very inquisitive, very curious, and

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Speaker 1: as result, Henry kept staffing me and putting me, I

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Speaker 1: would say, on jobs with increasing responsibility. And so pretty

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Speaker 1: early on I was going to meetings with CEO, so

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Speaker 1: he would he would set up and let me attend.

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Speaker 1: Of course I was carrying the pitch books, but that

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Speaker 1: didn't really matter to me. The exposure did um and

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Speaker 1: as a result I ended up working on an I

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Speaker 1: p O early the Long Islands, I think bank. Henry

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Speaker 1: kept giving me more and more responsibility, and in my

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Speaker 1: second year Merrill sent me to London, which was unusual

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Speaker 1: as well to send something that early, and I got

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Speaker 1: to go, you know, work on banking in the you know,

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Speaker 1: in the European banking industry, and had just an amazing experience.

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Speaker 1: So I gave Henry Michael's a lot of credit. Henry

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Speaker 1: definitely skipped a bunch of players to teach me, and I,

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Speaker 1: as I said, maybe my best contribution, as I was

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Speaker 1: a wrapped student. But the result was, you know, an

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Speaker 1: experience where I got a lot of exposure so very

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Speaker 1: quickly to kind of senior executives. Really really interesting. I

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Speaker 1: have a specific recollection of the Long Island Savings Bank

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Speaker 1: going I p O in the early I want to say,

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Speaker 1: mid nineties, and eventually I was the analyst, and eventually

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Speaker 1: it got acquired, and then that company got acquired and

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Speaker 1: at a certain point you just lose track. But this

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Speaker 1: leads to an obvious question. All of your background is

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Speaker 1: finance related. How did you transition to tech and what

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Speaker 1: made you decide to leave the East Coast and the

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Speaker 1: world of finance for the West Coast, which has more

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Speaker 1: of a technology ben Well, I so ironically I made

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Speaker 1: my way to the West Coast, not from the East Coast,

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Speaker 1: but via London, because if you recall, Meryll sent me

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Speaker 1: to London. And when I was in London, I had

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Speaker 1: spent maybe you know, two years with the bank, and

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Speaker 1: the classic length of these programs is two years and

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Speaker 1: then they expect you actually to move on, you know.

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Speaker 1: So analyst programs are two years of investment banks. So

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Speaker 1: I spent two years. They offered me a third and

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Speaker 1: I really want to be quote unquote in industry. Now,

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Speaker 1: I had no idea what that meant. That I wanted

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Speaker 1: to work for one company, and so I was able

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Speaker 1: to secure a role with the cfo UM at a

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Speaker 1: company called British Guy Broadcasting, one of the biggest satellite

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Speaker 1: broadcasters in the world. Um, he recalled, this is part

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Speaker 1: of news corps, kind of empire and uh. And luckily

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Speaker 1: for me, I parlayed my job in finance to a

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Speaker 1: job in finance inside of the company at at beast

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Speaker 1: I B and then I was promoted to working UM

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Speaker 1: for the CEO and the CEO UH there. So actually

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Speaker 1: it's probably more dramatic story. I was promoted. I was

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Speaker 1: working first on the top floor for the you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the two top bosses. And I've been there.

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Speaker 1: I've been at beast IB for only a year. And

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Speaker 1: I walked into my boss's office and I told him

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Speaker 1: I quit. And he was shocked, and I said, I said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I said, two things are true, David. Number one,

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Speaker 1: I have this epic promotion. You know, I you know,

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Speaker 1: I sit down the hallway from you. I get I

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Speaker 1: get lunch every day. I'm on the you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: on the executive floor. I'm like, but you don't really

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Speaker 1: use me. And it was true. My boss was very

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Speaker 1: used to sort of operating like the load wolf is

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Speaker 1: that UM as a sort of effectively president a company

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Speaker 1: and I said number two, I think I want to

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Speaker 1: head back to North America. I've been there for two

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Speaker 1: and a half years. And a girlfriend of mine, a

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Speaker 1: very dear friend, was at Stanford Business School. I had

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Speaker 1: visited her the year early earlier, and I fell in

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Speaker 1: love with the weather in the Bay Area and this

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Speaker 1: kind of sense of entrepreneurship. That's true. I mean for

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Speaker 1: a girl who comes from you know, Ontario, Canada, where

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Speaker 1: it gets pretty dark cold. You know, once you visit California,

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Speaker 1: you sort of realized that it's possible to live in

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Speaker 1: good weather all year long. Um. But the other but,

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Speaker 1: the other truth was I wanted to be an entrepreneur.

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Speaker 1: My father, you know, loved writting, Zoe love business. I

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Speaker 1: had no idea how. I loved the Bay Area for

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Speaker 1: the weather, and I sensed that it was you know,

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Speaker 1: that there were a lot of people starting companies. So

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Speaker 1: I put my job. I um went skiing for three

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Speaker 1: months in Whistler, um, and I moved to the I

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Speaker 1: moved to California and bought a car, drove up the

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Speaker 1: coast from l A to San Francisco. Luckily that that,

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Speaker 1: you know, those friends of mine, their parents put me

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Speaker 1: up at their very nice house and California until I

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Speaker 1: found a job and I started over, how did you

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Speaker 1: end up at? If you can't tell already? I was

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Speaker 1: assarily impatient, uh, young woman, because you know I moved

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Speaker 1: to Farembound in that first six years of my career. I,

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Speaker 1: as I said, I you know, I was looking for

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Speaker 1: a job in the valley. I faund when and forlting

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Speaker 1: the job I found, who was not nearly as positive

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Speaker 1: and experience as I had hoped. Um as you as

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Speaker 1: we just talked about, I actually had a really good

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Speaker 1: experience at Meryll. I even had a good experience at

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Speaker 1: Peach Guy b if you look at the fact that,

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Speaker 1: you know, I got the ability, I was promoted and

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Speaker 1: I got to this. You know, I found a startup

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Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley that was an interactive television which was

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Speaker 1: you know, at least somewhat related to what I'd just

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Speaker 1: done it, you know, a sky was in the TV industry.

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Speaker 1: And then second day on the job, my boss told

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Speaker 1: me I was scared the secretaries, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: what what does that mean? What do you mean? What

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Speaker 1: do you mean? I'm like, I've just come from two

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Speaker 1: industries that are highly male dominated, nobody ever told me

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Speaker 1: I was scary and um, and thus began a rapid

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Speaker 1: decline in our relationship. I felt like I wasn't getting

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Speaker 1: a lot of response ability. He kept telling me I

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Speaker 1: was the rookie that needed to be coached, and I

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Speaker 1: quit six months later, actually fairly deflated, because I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: if this is what it means to be in Silicon Valley,

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Speaker 1: its supposed to be this meritocracy, you know, I'm supposed

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Speaker 1: to be, you know, having the time of my life.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'm not meant for this place. Luckily for me, UM,

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Speaker 1: I started to think about getting another job, and a

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Speaker 1: recruiter called and pitched this idea of you know, a

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Speaker 1: company started by four Stanford PhDs in um I had

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Speaker 1: this very cool technology. I took the interview. I didn't

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Speaker 1: really understand fully the technology, but I loved them. They

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Speaker 1: were smart, they were candorous UM, and so I switched,

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Speaker 1: and lucky, luckily for me, I made that switch. You know,

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Speaker 1: um Jungly ended up building a whole engine for shopping

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Speaker 1: for compared and prices across the Internet, and Amazon bought

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Speaker 1: the company six months later, and that was really the

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Speaker 1: start of my career in Silicon Valley just a great experience,

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Speaker 1: but following a very poor one. Huh really, well, everything

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Speaker 1: can all be one in roses. Sometimes they're gonna miss

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about what it was like

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Speaker 1: working for Amazon and how closely did you work with

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Speaker 1: Bezos back then, Well, believe it or not, that's then

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Speaker 1: it was a pretty small company. There was about twelve

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Speaker 1: hundred people. We were public, so everybody got exposure to Jeff,

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Speaker 1: myself included. So what are some of those earlier those

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Speaker 1: early times like at Amazon. Well, first of all, as

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Speaker 1: I said, everybody was you know, it was a small

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Speaker 1: most company that you could fit most of Amazon in

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Speaker 1: one or two buildings. That we made a couple of

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Speaker 1: moves where you know, we were all in the same building.

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Speaker 1: Number two. We all had to work in the warehouse,

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Speaker 1: including you know, like the very top executives at Amazon,

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Speaker 1: Jeff and Rick Dal's out. Like everybody had ships, had

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Speaker 1: shifts over Christmas, you had no day job. You literally

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Speaker 1: all had shifts in the warehouse, which was a pretty

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Speaker 1: amazing cultural you know cultural feat and by the way,

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Speaker 1: that included like overnight ships. Um, you were picking and

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Speaker 1: packing books, music, you know, books, uds, and videos. That's true, Um,

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Speaker 1: Jeff had bought the company because he believed it or

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Speaker 1: not in still for still had his vision of a

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Speaker 1: day where Amazon should show you every product on the internet,

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Speaker 1: whether or not they had it in stock. So this

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Speaker 1: early vision of marketplace. But Amazon at the time was

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Speaker 1: just building out its own verticals, so what was it

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Speaker 1: like He was really the main champion of this acquisition

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Speaker 1: of buying us for our technology. He used it to

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Speaker 1: start version one of Amazon Marketplace, which he shut down

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Speaker 1: several years later. So he had made many attempts at

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Speaker 1: marketplace before he got the one that worked, and by

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Speaker 1: the way, before the world was ready for it. So

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Speaker 1: it was pretty It was a pretty um meat look

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Speaker 1: into how sort of visionary he was even early on.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you know, not nearly as sort of um

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Speaker 1: daunting a presence as he might be now, just like,

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Speaker 1: you know, very accessible, pretty goofy actually pretty quickly sense

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Speaker 1: of humor. And I got to work with them specifically

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Speaker 1: because I was one of the people selling merchants, you know,

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Speaker 1: like people like Macy's and others on the idea of

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Speaker 1: putting their products on Amazon's website. So I got to

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Speaker 1: pitch a few different retailers with Jeff, which was really neat.

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Speaker 1: So I know this is going to be a very

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Speaker 1: fanboy question, but I have to ask because there's a

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Speaker 1: broader components about understanding or not the future. In the

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Speaker 1: late nineties, in the early two thousand's, did you have

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Speaker 1: any indication that Amazon would become the juggernaut that it

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Speaker 1: become came or was thouse early days, Hey, we think

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Speaker 1: we're going to be successful. We could be a real

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Speaker 1: solid company. Like what was the view like from back then?

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Speaker 1: The view was not that we were going to become

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Speaker 1: the juggernaut we are today as defined by Amazon's not

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Speaker 1: just a retailer, but it's like a dominant movie studio. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's not just a movie studio. It owned the grocer.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's not just the grocer, but it happens to

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Speaker 1: own the largest infrastructure backbones for the way it's called

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Speaker 1: you know, Amazon Web services and other merchants. Like no

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Speaker 1: way with that obvious, as I said, like literally, these

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Speaker 1: were the days when we selling books, music and video

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Speaker 1: and um launching new categories. And Jeff, as I said,

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Speaker 1: like he was impressive, but he was also very accessible, funny, young,

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Speaker 1: like he told me a few years older than I am.

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Speaker 1: At best, and um, to know, I don't, I mean

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Speaker 1: all the people that you think of now is it's

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Speaker 1: quite famous. Um, there was no indication, you know, as

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Speaker 1: I said, now you might and I might say wow,

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Speaker 1: buying a company in launch Amazon marketplace. Certainly they were

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Speaker 1: early inklings that he used a vision to sell a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff and so he could say, hey, could

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Speaker 1: I see this company becoming one of the larger retailers? Sure,

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Speaker 1: but is defined by what Amazon is today? Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: no way to predict it quite quite fascinating that that's

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Speaker 1: quite fascinating. So let's talk about your transition from Amazon,

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Speaker 1: uh to your next venture. You co founded a startup.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about Yodley and what made

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Speaker 1: you decide to say, well, this Amazon company is kind

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Speaker 1: of fun, but let me see what I could build

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Speaker 1: on my own. Well, remember we were chatting about that

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Speaker 1: rather restless and impatient young woman. I don't think any

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Speaker 1: of that solved when I was at Amazon. It was

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Speaker 1: a great experience, by the way, And you know, remember

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Speaker 1: I had never gone intending to be at Amazon. I

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Speaker 1: had gone to a startup right which got bought. And

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Speaker 1: while Amazon was a great company, was up in Seattle,

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Speaker 1: it was now public, and so there's me thinking, gosh,

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Speaker 1: what am I going to get the chance to start

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Speaker 1: my own company? And I know many people listening to

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Speaker 1: this podcast will be like, really, you left Amazon to

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Speaker 1: start your own company? Is that a really smart decision? Um?

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Speaker 1: But in some ways, you know, Amazon to me still

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Speaker 1: at the time still felt very big and um, and

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Speaker 1: I wanted to get there. So at Amazon and remember

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Speaker 1: many of the founders of Jungle League, you know, have

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Speaker 1: made a lot of wealth. Um, they're certainly mentors of mine.

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Speaker 1: They are even today, and they start angel investing in

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Speaker 1: a number of companies in the valley. And knowing that

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Speaker 1: I have this ambition. Um, I've been at Amazon about

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Speaker 1: a year and I get into day. I get a

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Speaker 1: call one weekend and sort of says, hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's this professor from UCSC who's a computer science professor,

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Speaker 1: and he's built this really cool technology that goes out

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Speaker 1: across the web and it gets all your financial information

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Speaker 1: behind all of those sites with passwords, and it puts

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Speaker 1: them in one place. You can have an aggregated view

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Speaker 1: of your financial life. And by the way, the technology

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Speaker 1: is not the same as Junglie, but it has some analogies,

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Speaker 1: and they're like, and they're looking for a business co founder.

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Speaker 1: They have all these engineers that they need somebody to

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Speaker 1: establish the business model, race the money. Um. And so

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Speaker 1: I got one of those inbound calls and it was

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Speaker 1: through that network of you know, angel investors who who

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Speaker 1: were the founders of Junglee. I flew down from Seattle

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Speaker 1: to San Francisco for a weekend. I took one look

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Speaker 1: at the technology and I suitably impressed. I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: you just grabbed all my credit card balances and my

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Speaker 1: bank balance and you know, my brokerage balance in one

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Speaker 1: place and gave me this egrecated You nobody can do that.

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Speaker 1: I'm just pretty revolutionary technology at the time. Um. And

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Speaker 1: they offered me the opportunity of twenty nine years old

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Speaker 1: to become what's called a co founder of the company

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Speaker 1: and the first business executive. And I just jumped at

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Speaker 1: the chance. I love the technology, UM. I love the

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Speaker 1: fact that I would be with There was five engineers

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Speaker 1: at this company too, again very similar to Junglie. But

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Speaker 1: now I was going to get a seat at the

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Speaker 1: table as you know, as literally one of the executive

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Speaker 1: team at such a young age and get to raise

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Speaker 1: the money from venture capitalists, right a business plan. So

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Speaker 1: uh so they were really very early stage. Yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean it was twelve engineers in a room. And

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Speaker 1: as I said, and and I was just, you know,

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Speaker 1: as effectively the first business leader to be hired at

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Speaker 1: the company. And so I uh, I gave my notice

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Speaker 1: at Amazon maybe a month later and moved right into

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Speaker 1: Jungle Lee And we raised fifteen million dollars from venture

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Speaker 1: capitalists within a month of that, and we were off

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Speaker 1: to the races. And you know, thus began kind of

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Speaker 1: a six year journey to build you know what today

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Speaker 1: many would consider the pioneer in really aggregating your financial information.

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Speaker 1: I'm really proud of the fact that Yodally really did

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Speaker 1: create a whole industry of companies that you know, we're

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Speaker 1: able to access financial information using our services and our

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Speaker 1: kind of technology backbone and build many of the financial

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Speaker 1: apps that you know people used today. Um so Yodally

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Speaker 1: Yodally had a fifteen year run before it became public,

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Speaker 1: and I was there for the verse five of those years.

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Speaker 1: So let's work our way through this chronology a little bit.

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Speaker 1: You end up at at Jungle which gets acquired by Amazon,

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Speaker 1: and from to I'm at Amazon, and then when do

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Speaker 1: you leave ninety? When do you leave amaz Oh? So

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Speaker 1: you were only okay, Actually, so when their year, I

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Speaker 1: mean it was year and you stayed. Um, did you

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Speaker 1: stay with Yodley until they were acquired by investment? No.

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Speaker 1: I stayed with Yodley for five years. In that time,

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Speaker 1: I had every job under the sun. I was predominantly

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Speaker 1: responsible that we've talked about for uh for not just

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Speaker 1: raising the money. We raised about a hundred million in

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Speaker 1: the time I was there, in several rounds of financing,

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Speaker 1: but I was I was responsible for sales and business development,

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Speaker 1: selling our technology to all the banks and brokerage companies.

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Speaker 1: And so I stayed until two thousand and four. I

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Speaker 1: helped us hire our CEO in two thousands, and he

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Speaker 1: wasn't going anywhere, by the way. So I always say

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Speaker 1: to people, I topped out at my own startups. Like literally,

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Speaker 1: I'd had every job I've done, sales at Den Marketing,

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Speaker 1: at don PR, I was our spokesperson, I raised money,

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Speaker 1: and I in many ways, I was, you know, partnered

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Speaker 1: very closely with the CEO and we had a great relationship.

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Speaker 1: And in two thousand and four, I was like okay,

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Speaker 1: and now like what's my next horizon? Like I've been

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Speaker 1: here five years and I've done all of these roles,

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Speaker 1: but there was like, the company's not growing fast enough

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Speaker 1: to give me an entirely career, you know what set

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Speaker 1: of challenges. Um, And so that's I actually, for the

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Speaker 1: first time, you know, I did what i'd call, you know,

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Speaker 1: a more studied search, thinking I might start another company, um,

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Speaker 1: but also thinking you know that I wanted to find

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Speaker 1: the right idea. So I was pondering my next new

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Speaker 1: presuming I would start a company. When UM, I got

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to start a new service at Google, which

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Speaker 1: you know today we would call local and maps. And

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Speaker 1: and let's talk a little bit about Google Maps. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It's funny because it's so ubiquitous today we don't even

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Speaker 1: think twice about, um, the miracle that is Google Maps.

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Speaker 1: But back in the mid two thousand's, did anybody have

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Speaker 1: any idea of what a massive technological breakthrough g maps?

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Speaker 1: Where I remember playing with early versions of it and

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Speaker 1: just you know, had head exploding. What what was the

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Speaker 1: thoughts like within Google about about Google Maps? Well, it's, um,

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Speaker 1: it's a couple of things. So first of all. When

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Speaker 1: I got to call Google originally called me you come

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Speaker 1: to join them, and I actually said no, And I said, gosh,

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Speaker 1: you guys are also quite big. Your twelve hundred people.

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Speaker 1: Remember in my warped brain, you know Amazon is making

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Speaker 1: twelve hundred people. So is Google. And I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to start another company. I know. It's so

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Speaker 1: funny and and um and Google called me back seven

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Speaker 1: months later. They said, you said you wanted to start

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Speaker 1: up opportunity. We have it. We have something Greenfield called

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00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 1: maps and we said They said, Yahoo has a product

430
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 1: called Yahoo Maps, a well has something called map Quest.

431
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 1: Google has no products to help you search locally or

432
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 1: find navigate locally, i e. Both find goods and services

433
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: locally or businesses and navigate right because Google Local is

434
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 1: like search for business Google maps. Who search for a

435
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 1: place is back today. They're very merged. Nobody thinks of

436
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 1: them as different. Um and uh, and I studied. I

437
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 1: studied the landscape. I went and interviewed Google, and within

438
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 1: two weeks I said yes to the job because I

439
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: was like, holy smokes. The yellow pages industry, which at

440
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: the time was you know, those thick yellow books that

441
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: everybody got to find places was a twenty three billion

442
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 1: dollar industry in annual advertising. And I was like, surely

443
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: if Yahoo has some product in a well has a product,

444
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 1: Google should have a product. And look at all the

445
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 1: ad dollars available in this category and look at all

446
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 1: the usage. That's pretty antiquated. Um So I said yes

447
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 1: very quickly. Um and I have to point out that

448
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: Yellow Books at billion dollars revenue. The obvious answer is

449
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 1: but not for long. But not for long. I mean, look,

450
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: look digital really white staff business over you know, by

451
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: the way, there were still Yellow Pages around the country

452
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 1: and that around the globe, but nobody would think of

453
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,719
Speaker 1: that as a juggernaut industry. Um So, yeah, you know

454
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 1: online really you know, really changed and transformed the face

455
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: of local advertising fundamentally. But um, I would say, I

456
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 1: knew it would be big. I mean that's what led

457
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,679
Speaker 1: me to move in that direction. I'd say, what was

458
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: unknown about Google service? And you appreciate this even by me.

459
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: You know, I was paired with a product manager. I

460
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: was the business person, meaning I had to go license

461
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: to data for like roads and businesses to put underneath

462
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 1: inside of that service. Right, all that data was not online.

463
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 1: I had one product manager, Brett Taylor, um ironically now

464
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: the president of Sales Force. He was my He was

465
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: my product manager, and we had ten engineers and the

466
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: you know, twelve of us built that product effectively. I

467
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: did the business deals. He you know, he guided the engineers.

468
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: So on the one hand, the product could have been

469
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 1: pretty straightforward like Yahoo A O L. But Google made

470
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 1: two innovations that I think people will remember to this day.

471
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: Number one, believe it or not, just putting the name

472
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: of the road inside of the road, not on top

473
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: of the road was one innovation. You're like, oh, the

474
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: name of the road is like on the road, and

475
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: visually it's just like a prettier experience, and it's you know,

476
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: it's it's like the map is less crowded that way.

477
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: But the second innovation, and this I give a lot

478
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: of credit to Sergey and Larry. Early on, a guy

479
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 1: named John Hanky showed Google, once we'd launched local and

480
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: maps his cool technology that had satellite imagery called keyhole,

481
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: and Larry and Sergay were like, we need to buy that.

482
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: We're going to overlay that on maps, and that was

483
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 1: the innovation, right overlaying satellite technology on top of maps, Like, hey,

484
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: you can't give me any credit as a business person

485
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 1: for seeing that that was really product vision and in

486
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: that case led by the founders, I mean Brett, Brett

487
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: liked the product too, but from what I recall, Larry

488
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: and Sergay were really gung ho on buying the company

489
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: and overlaying satellite technology on top of maps. And that's

490
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 1: an example of sord of one of the things I

491
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: admired about Google. They didn't really care about how it

492
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 1: would make money. It was just a very cool and

493
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: differentiated in you know, it turns out very useful feature

494
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: to have Google Earth on top of Google Maps, but

495
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: like no commercial application, just super cool at least not

496
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: then eventually yes, but not. But like when we laid

497
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: over overlaid it, I was like, Okay, I guess if

498
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: this is cool, I'm going to make if anybody, But

499
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: what a what a great kind of product feature and

500
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: like kind of great vision. So um, those are some

501
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 1: of the fun or experiences about building maps and you know,

502
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: and then local as well. But you mentioned the integration

503
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: of local with Google Maps. I have a suspicion that

504
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't realize how tightly integrated it

505
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: actually is what I was in pre pandemic. I was

506
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 1: in Paris and we were looking for a specific restaurant

507
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: and you just punch restaurant in, and Google Maps knows

508
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: where you are and it just shows you on the maps.

509
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,719
Speaker 1: It populates all the restaurants of that type in that area,

510
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: and it's absolutely seamless. And I've showed that to people

511
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: who are much much younger than me, and they're like, huh,

512
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: I didn't know I could do that with Google Maps.

513
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: It's almost like, uh, you know, it's almost like a

514
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 1: a a surprise feature when really it's a more part

515
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: of of Google Maps. It's not an easter egg. Yeah. Absolutely,

516
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: And to be honest, when we started the product, local

517
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: and maps were different things. You could type into the

518
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: search box like you know, movie theater near me, and

519
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: you would get literally a listing of results. Today, of

520
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: course I'll show you the results on a Google Map

521
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: as the preferred way for you to see those results. Like, yes,

522
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: you can get a listing if you want, but every

523
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: Google Search result has the map embedded. And like you,

524
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: I actually often do all my local searching on Google Maps.

525
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: I don't even go to the main Google website. I can.

526
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: But I just go to like Google Maps and I

527
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: type in like restaurants near me, and I get all

528
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 1: of them with the reviews and the results, and so

529
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: look very very very fun product to have launched into.

530
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: What's done? So what led you to leave Google to

531
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: start joyous? Well, remember, I have one more big chapter

532
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: at Google that's probably um that's ironically even bigger than

533
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: my local and map chapter. Because I'm at Google. We've

534
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: launched local maps. And what's happening is people are saying

535
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: to me. We'll saying to my boss, who is the

536
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: cheap business officer of Google, Um, hey, we have all

537
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,959
Speaker 1: these other products that need us to license data, like

538
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: we want to have um we want to have a

539
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 1: library product. We want to have a scholar product, we

540
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: want to have a shopping product. By the way, we

541
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: wanted a video product. So I end up building a

542
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: team that is all the licensing for all this other

543
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: data types of data that we want to put online.

544
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: And so I'm running that team. You know, my team

545
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: has gone from I've gone from being an individual contributed

546
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 1: on running about thirty afford the business development executives and

547
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: about in the span of a year. This is how

548
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: fast Google was growing. And then my boss turns to

549
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 1: me and said, Hey, Larry's or days really have this

550
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: ambition that we should grow our international business much faster.

551
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: Would you move over and run what we call rest

552
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: of world, which is everything from China to Brazil. At

553
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: the time we weren't in China, Um and build that business.

554
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: So so, to be honest, I spent the next five

555
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: years of my time of Google US there for six

556
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: years actually running our international business. I end up giving

557
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: Local one, giving up Local one Maps and all those

558
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: other teams, and I move over and run that business

559
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: for five years and um, and that was the majority

560
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: of my time at Google actually was which building our

561
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: international business, which you know became renamed Asia Pacific in

562
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: Latin America. We entered China, we had at Brazil, we

563
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: entered India, we entered I don't know eighteen different countries

564
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: directly in a hundred nine indirectly, um until I ran

565
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: that business until two thousand nine. And that was probably

566
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: um my what I'm more known for its Google huh

567
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: really really interesting. And then the startup it starts again

568
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: and so oh nine, you head over to tell us

569
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: about the genesis of joyous, Yes, so um, oh nine,

570
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: I am, you know, three months pregnant with my third child.

571
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: I've had, you, got married, had a family. At Google. Um,

572
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: I met the pinnacle of my career. But it's also

573
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: clear that I am not going to be the CEO

574
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: of Google. Like it's not happening. You know. It was

575
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: obviou obviously Google. You know those two guys interest in

576
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: leaving they don't even and it was Eric and Eric

577
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: Schmidt as well. But it's also clear that any successor

578
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: at Google would be from product or engineering. And so

579
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: you know, and by the way, I mean pretty mighty company.

580
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: Sheryl Sandberg's might peer to an Armstrong who went on

581
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: to read a well Nikesh Aurora who today runs power

582
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: walls and networks. I mean, it was a pretty crazy

583
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: talented group. But all of us started peeling off in

584
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: our own time. My colleagues, a lot of them went

585
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: to larger companies. And I actually wanted, to your point,

586
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: I had to start a bitch again. I was thirty

587
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: nine years old, and I thought, if I'm ever going

588
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: to build another company, um, you know, this might be

589
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: my time. I'm you know, I'm older, but I'm not

590
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: so old that I wouldn't not start a company or

591
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: go to something early and I and I wanted to

592
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: be a CEO, and so I combined those ambitions and

593
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: I went to a venture capital firm for nine months.

594
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: I basically parked myself there. I had my third child. Um,

595
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: I said to them, I want to study everything in

596
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: e commerce. Remember I started my careerit e commerce, write

597
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: at Jungle and at Amazon, and it was like start

598
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: to two thousand nine, and I believe that e commerce

599
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: was going to go through another revolution in which people

600
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: were shopping less for things they needed like you're you know,

601
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: were things based on convenience and more based on want.

602
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: So this is the era where fashion, you know, decre

603
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: um experiences all start to rise as sort of marketplaces

604
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: on the Internet, and they're all just getting launched. By

605
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: the way he looked, you know, back ten years, it

606
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: was not obvious that Airbnb would be a big company.

607
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: It was not obvious that fashion would become one of

608
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: the biggest categories. Right, It's just super early to think

609
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: about anything other than price and convenience. So I study

610
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: sort of all the things in the landscape. And one

611
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: company had been pursuing me very actively at something called Polyvore,

612
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: which was sort of like an early version of pinterest

613
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: um subsequently about by Yahoo several years later for three

614
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: hundred million. And I actually, before I start my own company,

615
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: I go to them first as a CEO who's replacing

616
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: a founder. UM, so I go there for I go,

617
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: I study the landscape. They tried to recruit me multiple times.

618
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: I've been at a venture capital firm. I spent like

619
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: really nine months looking for my next thing. And I

620
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: took that job and within six months I was out.

621
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: I mean, the founder and I but it heads. I

622
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't even say we, but it had heads overtly. He

623
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: just wanted to run the company again. I came in

624
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: as the CEO and within six months he wanted the

625
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: company back, and that's what he told the board. So

626
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: I actually got you know, I lost my first job

627
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: outside of Google, which was humiliating. So that's how I

628
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: entered e commerce. This is what I mean when people

629
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: are like re entered e commerce. Whop. I was like, wow,

630
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: he started your own next stup and I was like no, no,

631
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: First I was the CEO of a startup where I

632
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: battled with the founder and he wanted the company back

633
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: and I gave up my like two thousand person multibillion

634
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: dollar job at Google to stay all of the ten

635
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: person startup. Like, let's not miss that part of the story,

636
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: because it's a pretty you know, illustrative of the way.

637
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: To your point, it all rolls, it's never all glorious.

638
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,719
Speaker 1: We do talk. By the way, we're going to circle

639
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: back to that because it's relevant with in the book

640
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: of absolutely what happens when you choose risks. What happens

641
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: when they work out kind of takes care of itself.

642
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: But when it doesn't work out, how do you respond

643
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: to what is a disappointment or a failure. Although I

644
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: have to imagine if they hire you a CEO and

645
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: then the founder comes back, that exit was probably made

646
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: a little less painful by whatever the the contract gave

647
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: you on the way at the door. Yeah, absolutely, by

648
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: the way, I heavily negotiated said after constancy, you're right,

649
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: I was very financially protected, but my ego, and we'll

650
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: talk about that later, was just incredibly bruised. And I

651
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: mean I was very humiliated, as you can imagine, have

652
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: lost that battle. And we'll come back to that. But

653
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: to your point, look, I start my next company, not

654
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: wanting to because I just had this very brutal startup experience. Right.

655
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: And remember I'm still pretty relevant because I've been at Google,

656
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: you know, I still have the sheet of Google and

657
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: everythingson before at in Amazon. So I'm getting large company calls.

658
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: In fact, I was at the final rounds of uh,

659
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: the CEO job for you know, a travel brand you

660
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: would well recognize. And at the same time, I had

661
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: this idea for a video shopping startup because I had

662
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: seen that at Google. You know, YouTube was starting and

663
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: having a young women who were like hawking products. They

664
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: were called haulers in the day. They'd go shopping and

665
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: show all their wares on their YouTube videos. YouTube wasn't shoppable,

666
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: but I saw that trend without the Google. And then

667
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 1: of course I've been a probably where the shopping startup

668
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: in fashion and lifestyle, and all the brands wanted to

669
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: work with us. They all wanted to somehow showcase their

670
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: wears online and they want to do it with like great,

671
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: great content. So, um, while I'm interviewing to these larger

672
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: company CEO roles, I have an idea to like effectively

673
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: create a new version of TVC you know which again

674
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: many people are doing video ship commerce today, think two

675
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: thousand and ten, like eleven years ago, not that many

676
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: people are thinking about this. Um. And ultimately I found

677
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: that idea so compelling that despite myself, I turned down

678
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 1: the safer CEO jobs and I took another startup risk

679
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: and I started that company, which you know you called Joyous. UM. Yeah,

680
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: that was my video shopping startup. And I ran it

681
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: for six years and we sort of built literally studios,

682
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: had brands, you know, give us products. We had curators

683
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: who told the story. We we created a patented video

684
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: player that had shot a shopping cart in the video player. UM.

685
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: We distributed that video player online multiple places, at multiple

686
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: different third party websites to get people to shop and

687
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: watch at the same time. UM. And that was an

688
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: incredible experience. I mean again sort of like the risk

689
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: of you know, trying to be an innovator. Uh, never

690
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: something I would regret doing. UM. Obviously grinding hard, ultimately

691
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 1: too early for the market, but nonetheless, like I sort

692
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: of just embraced the idea of the e commerce was

693
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: going to go through another revolution, and I sent all

694
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: my time working on the video side of that equation.

695
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: When you say too early for the market. Joyous was

696
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: still acquired by stack Commerce in why do you Why

697
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: do you believe you were too early to that market? Well,

698
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: first of all, we required for a very small sum.

699
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,959
Speaker 1: Like you know, nobody made anybody My venture capitalist didn't

700
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: make any money. I didn't make any money. Um. But

701
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: why I say we were too early? We raised you know,

702
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: we raised close to fifty million dollars, which in today's

703
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: world is not a lot of money. People raised that

704
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: in one round. We raised that in over six years.

705
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 1: But when I say too early, if you think about it, today,

706
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: we have Instagram video, where people are used to the

707
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: idea of looking at products in their feed. Half the

708
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: people in my office are their wardrobe is purchased via

709
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: in Instagram, right. And then you have Facebook video where

710
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: there's a lot of shopper blads like today's video. You know,

711
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: there's really a video unit on Facebook that has a

712
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: shopping card in it. You can watch video as an

713
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: ad and buy it. But when I am building this business,

714
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 1: there is no Facebook video, there is no Instagram video,

715
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: there's no snapshot, there's no a kick talk. So people

716
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: aren't really used to watching video for anything other than content.

717
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: Really like funny videos, short form videos on YouTube and

718
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: really for quite a young audience. And like even Netflix

719
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: is and it's you know, is building and growing, but

720
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: it's as a long form video platform. Like we went

721
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: to Netflix and said, would you like to buy a

722
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: shoppable show? Like we can give you shoppable shows, and like,

723
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: nobody was interested. Nobody was interested in carrying shows that

724
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: were about shopping. So we had neither interest from kind

725
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: of any of the big platforms, and all the platforms

726
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: were really interested in content that was only monetized through advertising. Right, So,

727
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: and the consumer is not used to like being on

728
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: a site like you know, Instagram was just filters and

729
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: products at the time and being honest site where you

730
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: could watch and shop products. So like when you have

731
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 1: no consumer understanding of that and you put out a

732
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 1: new innovation, you're hoping they'll adopt it, right, But if

733
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: they don't, if it's not something they recognize, you know,

734
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: what ends up happening is you're searching for cosumers who

735
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: want that experience, and that can be very expective. We

736
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: spent a lot more money on marketing and advertising in

737
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: order to convert people into watchers and shoppers, and that

738
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 1: was our that was our case. We kept growing, we

739
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: kept doubling every year, but we really needed venture capital

740
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: money um to keep you know, to keep growing the

741
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: size of the customer base. And it was it was

742
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: too expensive ultimately, So that's why we told we didn't

743
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: sole self for some glorious reason. We sold because you know,

744
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: a fifty million dollars in we were growing the revenues,

745
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: but we could not find a path to profitability, so

746
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: sold the technology and platform. Let me ask an obvious

747
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: in hindsight question. You have a background at Google. YouTube

748
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: is the fastest growing video platform. Wouldn't your technology integrate

749
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: with YouTube so that you can and along the same

750
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: way the past decade unboxing videos and all sorts of

751
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: tech and fashion and automotive and go down the list

752
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: of things you could buy that seems like that could

753
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,479
Speaker 1: have been a pretty natural fit. You can ask any

754
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: startup and ask any startup ceo the past they go

755
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,439
Speaker 1: on to sell a company. I spent a year trying

756
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: to sell joy Is. That's the gritty nitty gritty truth.

757
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: And think about my role of dex real pretty darn

758
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: good right at the Amazon it is Google. I mean,

759
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: I'm a known quantity by the way when you're this

760
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: is one of the hard truths when you're running a

761
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,959
Speaker 1: money losing startup. You know, sometimes you can get people

762
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 1: to bike, but often they think they can build it themselves. YouTube.

763
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: You know, we had a conversation and they certainly thought

764
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: they could build it themselves. I would say, up until today,

765
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: YouTube still doesn't have a shopping cart. Right, I was

766
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: gonna you know that Calculus is always lessly frustrating, Right,

767
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: that Calculus always seems to be, hey do we want

768
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: to wait three years or drop eight hundred million dollars?

769
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: And you know, leaprov the competition that seems to be

770
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: the math that was done, and here it is. It's

771
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: almost too And you still can't just purchase something on

772
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: YouTube with a click the way you can on Instagram.

773
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: Yeah you cannot. Facebook is probably probably the best video

774
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 1: shopping experience. Instagram has good shop ability, but it's adding

775
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: shop ability because for a long time, Instagram, you know,

776
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: was like kind of more pure. But it's adding it.

777
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: Um But they all want it, right, Everybody talks about

778
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: shop video, I mean everybody, and many people have enabled it.

779
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 1: So yeah, look, I would tell you I find it

780
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: endlessly frustrating that I couldn't land the company at one

781
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: of the places I think even today could use the technology.

782
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: By the way, h I said QVC. If you were

783
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: to look at the list of the people I talked

784
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: to in the seventeen as time as trying to sell

785
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: my startup, I can only tell you I found it

786
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: fairly shocking. But this tells you also how early it was.

787
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: Like today, video commerce is the hottest thing in one

788
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: in I literally could not get some of the best

789
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: platforms on the Internet to buy this pad technology. Now

790
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: I alsomely sold it to another private company that's doing

791
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: very well and was doing shoppable content and still is

792
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 1: so you know, enjoyous as a brand still continues. It's

793
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: just it's still painful to me because obviously I was

794
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: early but right, and you know, that's one of the

795
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: risks you have an entrepreneurship when you really do try

796
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: and innovate. Right, Maybe if I had started Joys five

797
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: years later, it would have been an entirely different outcome.

798
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: It probably would have been, but but hey, that's the

799
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: way the internet roles. Huh. Quite quite fascinating. Let's jump

800
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 1: right into a little background on Choose Possibility. You published

801
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 1: a letter I don't know. Is that five years ago

802
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 1: Tech Women Choose Possibility tell us about that? And is

803
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 1: that what led to uh into the new book? Well,

804
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: Tech Women Choose Possibility was a letter and open up

805
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: ed I wrote on a platform called v code, well

806
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: non digital newsletter really at a time where everybody and

807
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: myself included, which frustrated that the narrative on women in

808
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: tech was incredibly negative. If you think about two thousands fifteen,

809
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: you know many headline articles the Atlantic, the cover of

810
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: many of the New Yorker. I think all of these

811
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: folks have articles about sort of where all the women

812
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: in tech and how terrible it is. And there's also

813
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: like a lot of great, you know, not so great

814
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: stories about bias, discrimination and so on, and so at

815
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: the time I must startup entrepreneur and running joyous. And

816
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: of course I have a multi faceted view of this.

817
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: On the one hand, I think, hey, you know what,

818
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: all things being equal, I was still food Choo, Silicon Valley.

819
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: It is mostly maurocratic. It has been very good to me.

820
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: I found my tribe right, I've been able to thrive.

821
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: Yet at the same time I remembered that early experience

822
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: I had you recall where my boss told me I

823
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: was too aggressive for the secretaries. And I now started

824
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: a entrepreneur, and I hear firsthand stories from other amazing

825
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: female entrepreneurs and how terrible their experience is fundraising and

826
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: you know, and and and just the biased experience. So

827
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,720
Speaker 1: I wrote the op ed by surveying a hundred women

828
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,240
Speaker 1: in tex from CEOs two entrepreneurs um asking for their

829
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 1: opinions on being an entrepreneur and then their experience of

830
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: bias and discrimination. And in fact, what the you know,

831
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: what the survey shows, which is why I write the letter,

832
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: is what you'd expect, which is, you know, they you know,

833
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: I think the majority had said we have directly experienced

834
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: bias and discrimination, yet like eighties something percent still recommended

835
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: entrepreneurship in tech and even for their daughters. They said

836
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 1: if they didn't recommend us for their daughters, it wouldn't

837
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: be because of bias, would be because their daughters maybe

838
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: don't want to entrepreneurship. And so you say, well, how

839
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: can this duality exist? And the actuality is sort of

840
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: what the letter says. It's basically says, hey, look, you know,

841
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: by the way every day women get up and choose possibility.

842
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: They choose to sort of make their next active tech

843
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: and you can't be successful. So like, don't walk away

844
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: from this industry, please, because so many women are being

845
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: successful in increasing rate. But if you think it's all great,

846
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: it's not. And honestly, if I were in the tech industry,

847
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: the call to action I was looking you know, to

848
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 1: have happened is like, hey, you know, we think we

849
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: can solve all the world's problems. We tell everybody else

850
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: we can hear and silicide valley. Why are we not

851
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 1: applying any technology solutions to the problem of gender and inclusion?

852
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: Like really, like it's shocking to me that we'll talk

853
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: about solving poverty and clean water and climate change, but

854
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 1: there are no tech platforms to try and solve bias

855
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: and discrimination. And so that was what the letters that

856
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: have positive that you can both have a positive experience

857
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: personally yet still understand this is not what it should

858
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: be and the rest of the tech industry need to

859
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 1: take some responsibility for trying to equal equalize the playing field.

860
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: So did it lead to the letter or did the

861
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: book a little bit um The title is what I

862
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: mostly took from it. See, I think the notion that

863
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 1: is a dual path, like there can be risk and

864
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: reward and still danger or all those things can exist

865
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: at the same time, and that's what we're always grappling with.

866
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: What was the feedback to the letter when you published it.

867
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: It's now at Foxy, but recode back then. What sort

868
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: of response did you get? Overwhelmingly positive? Um, a lot

869
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: more than I expected. To Keep in mind, you know,

870
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: we talked about risks we take in our career. Like

871
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: many other people, I spent the majority of my career

872
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: heads down building my own companies or building at larger companies.

873
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: I really didn't try and use my voice actively on

874
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: any like broad topic. So for me, it was a

875
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 1: risk even write a letter. Right, I'm like, what will

876
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: people think of me? Well, they think I like, you know,

877
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: I'm putting myself out there for the first time as

878
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: a female first and a leader second, which is the

879
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: exact opposite of how I ran my own career. Right.

880
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 1: I never wanted to be seen in short of like

881
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: for my gender. I wanted to see my capability. Um. So,

882
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: I think the letter was very well received, and I

883
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: think people just said, well, hey, thanks for acknowledging the reality.

884
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: But also being solution oriented, like you know, it was

885
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: just a counter to the narrative that it's also terrible

886
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 1: and really, until all of our daughters become engineers, nothing

887
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: can be solved. I mean, um, So I think it

888
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: was maybe the first time I'd use my voice in

889
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: any kind of way that offers maybe um a personal perspective,

890
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: and found a little risky to do it. And I

891
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: think I was validated and sort of trying to speak

892
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 1: up by the response like that. And that was before

893
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: places like Uber. Um, some of the engineers had had

894
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 1: gone public about what a frat house that was inside you.

895
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: You predated that explosion that we saw elsewhere, right, Uber

896
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 1: had its me to moment about a year later, and

897
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: in fact, many companies did, and you started to see,

898
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: you know, some of the very very bad behavior far

899
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: beyond the microaggressions that many women talk about that um,

900
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, people of color and women experience, unfortunately to

901
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: a far date greater degree than any of us think.

902
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: So the letter predated it, but um, I think me

903
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: too really expose some of the more flagrant and honestly

904
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: awful things people go through work. Sure, so let's talk

905
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 1: a little bit about the book I don't. I don't

906
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: want to overlook this. Um. I like the way you

907
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: have this structured in three parts, going get Smarter, Get rewarded.

908
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: Explain why you went with that structure. Sure, so, UM,

909
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: obviously it's uh, it's probably obvious from this conversation that

910
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: I've taken a decent amount of risk in my career.

911
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: And I wrote the book because I think people have

912
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 1: a very um, unrealistic sense of what risk and reward

913
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: looks like compared to how it really unfold. And so

914
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: I structured the book in a way that really I

915
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: didn't did not want it to be a memoir, but

916
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: I structured in a way that goes from sort of

917
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: basic lessons on risk taking, um, to sort of maybe

918
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: more complex not ideas, but kind of uh, philosophies. And

919
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: it really mirrors maybe the way I learned to take risk.

920
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 1: You know, for me, it was really simple in the beginning.

921
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: And you know, we talked about those early moves. I

922
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 1: made five or six moves in the span of seven years, right,

923
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 1: so whether they worked out or not, I took a

924
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: fair amount of risk, you know, and made a number

925
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: of sequential choices. And then I think the middle is

926
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: about being a smart risk taker. Nobody says, I don't

927
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: say certainly that this book is about just taking risk

928
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: willy nilly. It's about how do you become a calculated

929
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: risk taker? Right? If what we're asked you to lean

930
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: forward and take more risk in your career, the question

931
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 1: is you want to do it smartly? And then the last,

932
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 1: of course, really chapter really kind of talks to how like,

933
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: how many of these choices really unfold over time? So

934
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,800
Speaker 1: organized it roughly in the order in which would happened

935
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: in my lifetime, which is also the sort of order

936
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: broadly speaking, which I learned these lessons, and some of

937
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: the chapters really leap out with some real interesting questions

938
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 1: that I wanted to bounce off of you, um, starting

939
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: with why is the hero's journey the wrong metaphor for entrepreneurs? Well,

940
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: you know, and not just to entrepreneurs, for people at

941
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: larger companies too. We have this idea, you know, when

942
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 1: we look at the hero's journey, what we what we

943
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: see and remember is just like one mighty choice the

944
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: hero made that we could either lead to sort of

945
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: abject failure or glorious you know, glorious success. And by

946
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: the way, we see that story just in you know,

947
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: in um popular media, but even in the media that

948
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: relates to, you know, the journeys of successful entrepreneurs, Like

949
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: we're all watching what happens when Richard Branson, you know,

950
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: goes to space, Like you know, it's just going to

951
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: be ethically successful or something disastrous gonna happen, right, Like,

952
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: there's all of the binary stories we see about people's

953
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: like big, singular choices, and I think and I call

954
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: that the myth of a single choice in the book.

955
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: The reality is that you know, most people who are

956
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: taking risks, it's not one risk that led them to

957
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: the reward. It is the multitude of risks. And by

958
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 1: the way, they're not even all big. They may be small, small, small, big, small, small, small, medium, small, small, small, small,

959
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: and they just keep pivoting in small ways until they

960
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: realize the reward they imagined or a different one. So

961
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: we have boiled the hero's journey down to a single choice,

962
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: when you know, really rewards, you know, reward getting is

963
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 1: about a system of unlocking multiple choices, and it's never

964
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: just one choice. It's about be committing to the process,

965
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: is continually choosing your way and your path. I like

966
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: that description. It's less cinematic but far more realistic. Another

967
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: one that that jumped out that was kind of interesting

968
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 1: and obviously, given how you've moved from New York to

969
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: London to Silicon Valley, makes sense. Tell us why proximity

970
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: beats planning, Well, it's interesting. I think one of the

971
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 1: reasons people um see a risk is they like they

972
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 1: just don't like uncertainty. In fact, it's research that suggests

973
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 1: that often people choose something not because they're convinced it's

974
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: the best path, but because it simply reduced this uncertainty.

975
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 1: So it certainty creates a lot of anxiety for people.

976
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: So what's the anecdote to that, Well, for many people,

977
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: it's planning. Well, I'm going to do this, but first

978
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to create a plan. So they start planning

979
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: for the thing they don't know, and they plan from

980
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: afar right. So you can create this perfect plan of

981
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 1: what you imagine the thing is that you want to

982
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: go after, and you can add more and more detail

983
00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: to that plan. But the problem is, like you're pretty

984
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 1: far away from understanding what that new reality looks like.

985
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: And so while you're creating a plan, it's not like

986
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 1: it's sort of a plan in your head with more

987
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,280
Speaker 1: and more detail that makes you feel you know less uncertain,

988
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 1: but it's not getting you any closer to the action.

989
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: So often I say to people like, if you if

990
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 1: you know what you want, or even if you don't,

991
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: get proximate to you know, environments or people that even

992
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: roughly approximate the thing you think you want the thing

993
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: you think you want, and two things happen. Number One,

994
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: you learn a lot more by being proximate than planning

995
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: from afar, Like did you say, hey, I want to

996
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: be a chef and I'm currently a financial analyst. Like,

997
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: let's say, well, how do you get yourself in circumstances

998
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: where you're in an array of chefts and restaurants? You

999
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: know before you ever make a mighty lead to go

1000
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: to culinary school because you can learn by being proximate

1001
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: whether or not that thing is even what you want. Right,

1002
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: So getting close helps you identify the thing you think

1003
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: you want is what you really want. Number Two, you

1004
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,040
Speaker 1: get knowledge on how to achieve it because you're you know,

1005
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 1: you're approximate to people who've already done what you want

1006
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: to do, and simply by studying them or being around them,

1007
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: you're going to learn. And the third thing is well,

1008
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: if you really know what you already want, when you

1009
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: get proximate, you know, you really get the opportunity to

1010
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 1: you know, to I would say apprentice under masters people

1011
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: are really good at it, and those people attract new

1012
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: opportunity all the time. UM. So those are the reasons

1013
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: I think that proximity, getting close to what you want

1014
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,280
Speaker 1: even before you know it exactly, has far more value

1015
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: than planning in the abstract. So let's talk a little

1016
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 1: bit about a less successful startup in your personal UM

1017
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:45,280
Speaker 1: career polyvore, which is what preceded you joining UM. Joyous

1018
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,280
Speaker 1: tell us about what went wrong there and the lessons

1019
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: that you learned. Sure well, first of all, I always

1020
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: say people, you can take smart risks, or try and

1021
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: take smarter risks, but you don't never eliminate risk entirely. Right.

1022
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 1: You can do all the studying you want and set

1023
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,320
Speaker 1: yourself up well and still fail. I mean that is

1024
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: why it's called risk after all, And certainly a poly

1025
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 1: woar I made a very studied choice. I entered the

1026
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: e commerce arena very knowingly. I wanted to be a

1027
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: CEO and the company I mean, I've known the company

1028
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: for three years, so I felt like I really had

1029
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 1: done my homework. Um. Yea. When I arrived at Polly War,

1030
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: I had a game plan that said, look, I'm taking

1031
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 1: over from a founder. You know, Silicon Valley is littered

1032
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: with founders CEO pairings that don't work, crumble. It's like

1033
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: a marriage, right, I mean, at best, your your odds

1034
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 1: of fifty percent out of marriage, and like I'd say

1035
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: they might be even slightly less out of founder CEO

1036
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,839
Speaker 1: relationship because you have two people who have authority over

1037
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: a company. Right. Um. On the one hand, you have,

1038
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: you know, a founder who has been used to running

1039
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: a company and obviously have control over it, including you know,

1040
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: financially through equity ownership, and then you have a CEO

1041
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: who's sort of theoretically bought into sort of be the adult.

1042
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: So um So my point overall is that, uh, when

1043
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 1: you think about any start the founder CEO journey, you're

1044
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: like carrying somebody's with financial ownership of a company that's

1045
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 1: pretty large and moral authority with some of the theoretically

1046
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 1: has professional management skills, but also wants to set vision um.

1047
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: And that's what I entered to Polly bar and I

1048
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: think if I were to characterize in a nutshell, white

1049
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 1: didn't work out. I think that, you know, at to

1050
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: the first three months, I was listening to what the

1051
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 1: founder had to say and didn't really wanna did not

1052
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:27,319
Speaker 1: really want to disrupt the apple cart. I really want

1053
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: to listen and be a fossful partner. At month three

1054
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,279
Speaker 1: to six, I started to sort of voice some of

1055
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: what I believe we should do with the company. And

1056
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 1: by the way, I said to the board, you know,

1057
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 1: this is going to go one of two ways. Either,

1058
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: you know, my partner and I kind of share the

1059
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 1: same values and want this to work, or you know,

1060
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 1: there's a possibility that this person feels very threatened by

1061
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 1: you know, me voicing my own opinions. And I think

1062
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 1: the latter ended up happening. And at month six, you know,

1063
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,839
Speaker 1: the founder basically said I want the company back. It's

1064
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: either to Kinder or me, and the board shows him

1065
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: and it was an INCREDI off we painful experience. And

1066
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 1: so what did I learn from it? I think I

1067
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 1: learned one seminal lesson, which is, you can do all

1068
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: the studying you want, you know, whenever you make a

1069
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: new choice like the who that you're partnering with, the

1070
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: who of the equation is even more important than the

1071
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 1: what I would say that to people like, we make

1072
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: new choices based on the industry, based on the company,

1073
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 1: based on the company's track record, based on our passions.

1074
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,439
Speaker 1: Yet intrinsically, when we enter any new situation at work,

1075
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,359
Speaker 1: we are, you know, inextricably tied to whoever we're working

1076
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: for or with most closely right and our experience working

1077
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 1: with them. Do we share the same values? Do we

1078
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 1: have different strengths? Do we have complementary strengths? And I

1079
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: think I ended up in the boat with somebody who,

1080
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: at the end of the day didn't share my values.

1081
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 1: Like we really wanted to run the company, not just

1082
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: I wouldn't even say with different ideas of how we

1083
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: could get there. It was like we wanted to run

1084
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:55,320
Speaker 1: the company differently, what we valued in leadership was different.

1085
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 1: And so when that then I went that situation transpired,

1086
00:55:58,360 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 1: I went to my mentors and I said, oh, my god,

1087
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: like the founder wants the company back, should I fight

1088
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: for it? And the very first thing my mentor said

1089
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 1: was no, They said, why would you ever want to

1090
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 1: fight for a company? That's ten ten people big where

1091
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: quite frankly, what you're telling me about this story and

1092
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: what's transpired. And by the way, I'm not going into

1093
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,919
Speaker 1: the nity grade of how it transpired, which was thank

1094
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: not in keeping with my values. They're like, from all

1095
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 1: of the behaviors that have gone on, like, what makes

1096
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:25,800
Speaker 1: you think that this would be a group of people

1097
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: that you want to tie yourself to going forward? And

1098
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: I said, you're right, and so I actually like didn't

1099
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 1: fight for it. I was like, okay, you want to,

1100
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 1: you can have it back. I'm out. You're right, this

1101
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 1: is not the right place for me, which was against

1102
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: every instinct I have. Is like somebody who wants to

1103
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: drive and control right just to give up. And they're like, yeah,

1104
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: you're right. And I look back on that situation and say,

1105
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 1: my mentors were right. One of the hardest things in

1106
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: business is knowing when to cut losses, when to say, hey, whatever,

1107
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,800
Speaker 1: this decision that led us to this point was wrong,

1108
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: and now let me just reverse engines and head out

1109
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 1: of here as fast as I can. But it it

1110
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: feels challenging because it's an admission of failure, even though

1111
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 1: that's not what this was. Yeah, well, well, by the

1112
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: way I would say to people, it depends over what

1113
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: time frame you characterize that decision on a six month

1114
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 1: time frame or year time frame. That was a failed decision.

1115
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 1: And I call it a failure because I failed to

1116
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: have the impact. You know, It's different than Joyous, Right,

1117
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: we talked about why Joyce did or did not. We

1118
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 1: just culmination as a video platform. But I can look

1119
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 1: back on those six years and see every innovation we achieved,

1120
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: see everything we've built, See the team we assembled and

1121
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: what they've gone on to do. See the fact that

1122
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 1: like we were the pioneer, and I can feel very

1123
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 1: proud because I know I had impact. It's probably where

1124
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: I had no impact. I was just six months. You know.

1125
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 1: It was painful and like and honestly like a waste

1126
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: of my time and their time because nothing transpired that

1127
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 1: was positive. Right. We just I just exited. Um So

1128
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: I consider it a failure, but I also consider it

1129
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 1: a success. In the decision to join the commerce, you know,

1130
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: to leave Google and become a CEO. You know, I

1131
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: got to run my own company. I got to run

1132
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: stub Hub, like I mean, you know, I began a journey.

1133
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: I got to become an e commerce investor, an e

1134
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: commerce board member like I have loved being in the

1135
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: Business e E Conference for the last ten years, and

1136
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 1: that would only have been possible because of my decision

1137
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 1: to join Pollymore however painful. So so anyway, I I

1138
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: think it was a personal failure, but I think in

1139
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: many ways, you know, the choices I made, some of

1140
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: them stuck, and those ones, you know, not all of them,

1141
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: but several of them were successful. Hey, sometimes due diligence

1142
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 1: just doesn't identify every less cockroach that might that might

1143
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: come out. Absolutely absolutely true. You can't. You can't just

1144
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 1: research away all the inherent risk in the situation. You

1145
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 1: just make the best choice you can and then you

1146
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: need to have confidence in your ability to respond. So

1147
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 1: I have dozens more questions about the book, but I

1148
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: want to get to some other stuff. Let me ask

1149
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: one last question. I really like the title to succeed

1150
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: forget success. Tell us a little bit about that. Sure, Well,

1151
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 1: what I always say to people is when we make

1152
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 1: a big choice, particually a big career choice, you know,

1153
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 1: most big choices unfold to sort of a meaningful reward

1154
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 1: and call it three to five years. It's hard to

1155
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 1: think about a work ambition that you couldggest that it

1156
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: is big enough to be exciting, yet so small that

1157
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 1: you could achieve it in six months. Right, it almost

1158
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. Um, So let's presume you make a big

1159
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 1: choice and you're like, hey, I want to ascend to

1160
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 1: this law. I want to be a CEO in the

1161
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 1: next three to five years, or I want to get

1162
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: at my current company, or I want to be the

1163
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 1: head of this division, whatever it might be. At the

1164
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 1: end of the day, we make a big choice and

1165
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 1: we're not done right. Like, once we've made a big choice,

1166
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 1: we're like, oh, yeah, now I need to execute my

1167
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 1: way to that reward. I didn't just choose that. Now

1168
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: I need to execute my way to that reward. And

1169
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 1: so to the process of execution. Every day we're making

1170
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 1: littlar choices to find success. We need say like, okay,

1171
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 1: now we need to build the revenues of this you know,

1172
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 1: of this division. Oh my god, we need to restructure,

1173
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:00,439
Speaker 1: Oh my god, we need to find in new ways

1174
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: to grow, and so on your way to your larger ambition.

1175
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 1: Every day you're making choices and producing outcomes you know

1176
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: in this and you're just doing that picklically. So between

1177
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,439
Speaker 1: you and that big reward is you know, a dozen, ten,

1178
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 1: a hundred more choices, And every time you make a choice,

1179
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 1: you're trying to produce a success, a learning, but some

1180
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 1: kind of outcome. So let's say that you know you

1181
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 1: don't achieve that, you know that ultimate success, you don't

1182
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 1: get the promotion. But along the way, you built a

1183
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 1: great division, you doubled revenues, you launched new services. I

1184
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 1: call all of those outcomes. You know, by the way

1185
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 1: you built a team that you know gave you a

1186
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 1: high satisfaction rating as a leader. All of those outcomes

1187
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: are still positive. There's still what I call your career capital.

1188
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 1: And in that process of just continuing to pursue results

1189
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 1: and impact, you've not only accumulated career capital, you've likely

1190
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 1: become more agile and more confident. So aren't those all

1191
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: things that are going to contribute to your future success,

1192
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: whether or not you've got the reward you want. They are,

1193
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 1: But we often only focus on the end goal when

1194
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 1: really I think what we should be focusing on is

1195
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 1: creating impact. Every time we create impact, we create an

1196
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: indelible results or outcome that is the result of our

1197
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 1: own efforts and learning and agility. And that's really like

1198
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 1: the reward for risk taking. Because I can't tell you

1199
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 1: if you're going to get the riginal reward. I can't

1200
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 1: tell you if you're going to get the original success

1201
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 1: you imagine or something different. But I can tell you

1202
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 1: that if you pursue impact in every choice that between

1203
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: you and that big reward, you're going to create a

1204
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 1: lot of outcomes. And those outcomes, you know, will become

1205
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 1: the basis for your reputation, your confidence, your skills, and

1206
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 1: any future success you acquire. That is the reward for

1207
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 1: risk taking. And that's why I say they'll focus on success,

1208
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 1: focused on impact. Very interesting. Let's talk a little bit

1209
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 1: starting with your role as president of stub Hub. What

1210
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 1: was that like? Did you have any surprising challenges you

1211
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 1: had to deal with in that role? I feel like

1212
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 1: that's the leading questions to tell you about just suseuch,

1213
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 1: but certainly I'm happy to share. So um I ran

1214
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 1: stub Hub from in that time. There's a lot of

1215
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: a lot of surprises, some I could have anticipated and

1216
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 1: some I couldn't. First of all, just a phenomenal and

1217
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 1: fun experience. If you've ever been in a business of

1218
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: live experiences and giving that gift to people of lives.

1219
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 1: There's just really nothing like it. So and I'm also

1220
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 1: happy to be a big sports and entertainment fans, so

1221
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: that doesn't hurt UM. But when I think about the

1222
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: things that were surprises, Number one, UM StubHub. If you know,

1223
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 1: the history was bought by eBay over ten years ago,

1224
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: and so was an EBA SIB sidiary, and UM I

1225
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,440
Speaker 1: could have anticipated that eBay would continue to face, you know,

1226
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 1: shareholder pressure because it wasn't growing at the same rate

1227
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 1: as Amazon and its margins were declining. UM and in fact,

1228
01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: that shareholder pressure came to task and an active Elliott.

1229
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: Two activists joined the board Starboard and Elliott in yeah

1230
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 1: and no no in nineteen my goodness in January two

1231
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 1: and put pressure on the CEO, the then CEO to

1232
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 1: self stub hub as opposed to whole bit so Midway,

1233
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 1: I was only a year into my tenure when an

1234
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 1: activist joined the eBay board, and UH quickly became apparent

1235
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:24,440
Speaker 1: that we were gonna end up selling the company and

1236
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:26,480
Speaker 1: I was gonna be leading a sale process, which is

1237
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 1: not necessarily what I personally wanted, but UM, so that

1238
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 1: I could have anticipated in the sense that they had

1239
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 1: had an activist once before, and certainly when I took

1240
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: the stub Hub job, it did occur to me that, um,

1241
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 1: that would be uh one potential risk that eBay itself,

1242
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 1: my parent company, would face pressure. UM. I expected more

1243
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 1: sort of earnings pressure, you know, pressure to deliver our

1244
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 1: numbers every quarter. Uh. There was an outside possibility of

1245
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: an activists, but that came to pass, and that led

1246
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: to the sale of the company to StubHub. Sale. UM

1247
01:03:56,040 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 1: the honest the other unexpected event with Covid, and you know, ironically,

1248
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: stub hub sold for a record stub you know, four

1249
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 1: billion dollars. We led a process that led to a

1250
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 1: successful transaction that closed on February, and I thought, as

1251
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 1: much as I was personally disappointed, you know, I recognized

1252
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 1: it as a very successful business outcome and I was

1253
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:19,959
Speaker 1: going to go have to find a new job because

1254
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: very rarely there's the acquired company, you know, get to

1255
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: have its CEO run the combined company, and I certainly

1256
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 1: was not getting that job. Um. The original founder of

1257
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 1: StubHub bought back the company and he wanted to run

1258
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 1: the combined company. H there's a thing with you and

1259
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 1: founders coming back to run companies. That's keep in mind.

1260
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 1: I've also been a founder three you know, three times,

1261
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 1: so um so I do understand that founder CEO dynamic

1262
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: And as I said, any founders have an affinity for

1263
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 1: their companies that is really hard to you can I

1264
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 1: don't know, it's just hard to put any price tag

1265
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 1: or any sure it's one part you go, one part

1266
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 1: of their baby. I get that, Yeah, you got it.

1267
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 1: So and by the way, and in this case looks

1268
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 1: completely professional, like you have a founder who's been out

1269
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 1: of the company for twenty years and has nothing to

1270
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 1: do with me. A fifty years he had started a

1271
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:09,280
Speaker 1: competitive ticketing company and now you want to come back.

1272
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 1: And by the way, he had been pushed out of

1273
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 1: the company. So if there was an ego involved here,

1274
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 1: it's that the original founders pushed him out of the

1275
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 1: company in twenty five And so yeah, there's a lot

1276
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 1: involved in one being able to come back and buy

1277
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 1: the company that you were once pushed out of. So anyway,

1278
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 1: I have nothing to do with that, Dynamics. I just

1279
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 1: want to be clear, and let's put let's put some

1280
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 1: numbers on this, because really, so you oversee the spin out,

1281
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 1: the sale of stub Hub to a third party, and

1282
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: to put some numbers, eBay buy stub Hub for like

1283
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 1: three hundred million dollars in oh seven. It's barely a

1284
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 1: decade later, it's now late and you managed to sell

1285
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 1: stub Hub for over four billion dollars to via Go Go,

1286
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 1: which I think was smaller than StubHub at the time.

1287
01:05:56,800 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 1: And ps, this is four months before the world is

1288
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 1: going to shut down thanks to COVID. That turned out

1289
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:08,959
Speaker 1: to be a spectacularly time sale. Yes, I know, people

1290
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 1: give us a lot of credit in hindsight for that

1291
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: sale period. And I think and um and I and

1292
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 1: for eBay, just a tremendous outcome because to your point,

1293
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 1: we announced the sale in the fall of nineteen and

1294
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:22,720
Speaker 1: the and the transaction closed like money in the bank

1295
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:28,120
Speaker 1: for eBay on February. Wow. That's yeah, I know, people

1296
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:31,040
Speaker 1: say unbelievable timing. One thing to note is, you know

1297
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,040
Speaker 1: everybody who was bidding to buy us in the strategic

1298
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 1: category was smarter than StubHub, because you know, we were

1299
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,160
Speaker 1: the largest player in in in C two C ticketing right,

1300
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 1: Ticketmaster the other big player, and much bigger than us,

1301
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 1: but not the same category. So um So ironically, all

1302
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 1: of the people bidding to buy us were people that

1303
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:50,840
Speaker 1: honestly I would have wanted to buy UM, but they

1304
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 1: were all smaller than us, but with big checks and

1305
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: often you know, pe dollars behind them. So uh so

1306
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:59,480
Speaker 1: look um successful as some for stub Hub. And then

1307
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 1: you know, I think I'm going to sail off into

1308
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 1: the sunset after you know, a reasonable but short transition period,

1309
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 1: and I do not expect to still be in the seat.

1310
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 1: You know, on March their teams, well, I think I

1311
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 1: think I'll be there, but it will be part of

1312
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 1: my transition um and on marched their team. The COVID

1313
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:19,919
Speaker 1: hits the US sports and entertainment industry in a massive way.

1314
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:22,240
Speaker 1: At the beginning of the week, we are forecasting that,

1315
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:24,360
Speaker 1: you know, we need to start to plan for closures,

1316
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:27,040
Speaker 1: and I remember saying to our finance team, we're forecasting

1317
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 1: to be fifty percent down. Maybe we need to have down.

1318
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 1: No one should need to have a fifty percent case,

1319
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 1: you know, this is what's trying to think about. How

1320
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 1: no way. And by the end of the week, every

1321
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 1: sports league has suspended its season like literally something like

1322
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 1: twenty thousand events canceled in like a week span. I

1323
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 1: mean when I say, you go from sort of you know,

1324
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 1: having a record sale to like an existential crisis that

1325
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:54,200
Speaker 1: was us, you know, we were because we were no

1326
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 1: longer owned by eBay. We didn't have ebase balance sheet.

1327
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 1: We were owned by another private company who itself had

1328
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 1: to manage it because guess what, it's ben't ticketing to right,

1329
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 1: So it's being affected internationally. We're being affected internationally and

1330
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:07,920
Speaker 1: more importantly in the US, which is the majority of

1331
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 1: our business. And so we went from you know, record

1332
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:14,160
Speaker 1: sale to cash crunch um. And it was on my watch,

1333
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 1: and so you can imagine I'm might feel responsibility for

1334
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 1: our business. I feel responsibility for employees. I feel responsibility

1335
01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 1: that we do not go bankrupt um. And we rapidly

1336
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:27,519
Speaker 1: restructed the company over sixty days. I will say to people,

1337
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:28,840
Speaker 1: if you want to know what that period, would like

1338
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 1: to look at my Twitter feed the amount of hatred

1339
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,360
Speaker 1: I got from people. I mean, I understand that customers

1340
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:37,280
Speaker 1: were very upset. We had to change policies on refunds.

1341
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 1: I didn't have the money on the floor. I didn't

1342
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:41,920
Speaker 1: have you know, hundreds of millions of dollars to give

1343
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 1: everybody their money back. The best I could do would

1344
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 1: give people credit, like I mean like literally, as like

1345
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:53,799
Speaker 1: I'm trying to choose between the company not going under literally,

1346
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:56,000
Speaker 1: which was yeah, how do you explain that to people?

1347
01:08:56,000 --> 01:08:57,920
Speaker 1: I did my best. I wrote a transparent note to

1348
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 1: our customers. I got tons of hate triad and it's fine.

1349
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 1: Like people were very frustrated. You remember the levels of

1350
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 1: everyone's frustration and people's money, so anyways, very intense. But

1351
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 1: I'm very proud of the team. We we structured in

1352
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:13,920
Speaker 1: a sixty day span and only once we finished the

1353
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,439
Speaker 1: restructuring that I depart because I knew that Step Up

1354
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 1: could survive for an indefinite period until live events started

1355
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 1: to come back. And so you know, it turns out

1356
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:26,200
Speaker 1: that the definite period has been over a year. Obviously, um,

1357
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:31,600
Speaker 1: I can't share any confidential numbers, but you know, the company, no, no,

1358
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:34,639
Speaker 1: I'm proud of account of the fact that the company survived, right,

1359
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean it looked dire for everybody,

1360
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 1: anybody in the in the live entertainment business. There was

1361
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:44,840
Speaker 1: a genuine question mark, Hey, if you're going to close

1362
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 1: for six months or a year and have zero revenue,

1363
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:51,400
Speaker 1: will you be able to survive? It was nice of

1364
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 1: you could have easily said, Hey, my job was to

1365
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:57,200
Speaker 1: sell the company. I'm att here. The fact that you

1366
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:01,800
Speaker 1: start stuck around, help them restructure and put them on

1367
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:07,320
Speaker 1: better footing. Um, not everybody would have taken that choice.

1368
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 1: I think a few people would have said, Hey, my

1369
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:11,720
Speaker 1: job was to sell and it's sold and we're out

1370
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:15,120
Speaker 1: of here. Well, yeah, I don't know. Most leaders I

1371
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 1: know would know that that's really not a choice. I mean,

1372
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:19,680
Speaker 1: once you're there, you're there. But I appreciate your saying it.

1373
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 1: Mostly as I said, I'm super proud of the team,

1374
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:24,240
Speaker 1: because this is what I will say about risk. Right,

1375
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 1: Risks come upon us that we never can anticipate, versus

1376
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 1: ones that we can. And in those moments, you see

1377
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:31,960
Speaker 1: people's agility. And let me tell you, the Subhub team,

1378
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 1: like that is a team of people who share my values.

1379
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 1: And I was very proud to be leading a team that,

1380
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:39,800
Speaker 1: you know, really made hard choices in a rapid period

1381
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:42,639
Speaker 1: into including choices that affected each of them. Think about

1382
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:45,920
Speaker 1: that like people making choices about their own jobs, you know,

1383
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 1: to try and make sure Subhub survived and like, you know,

1384
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:51,840
Speaker 1: as a leader, like a very painful period but also

1385
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:54,400
Speaker 1: one of the most rewarding to be with that group

1386
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:57,719
Speaker 1: of people. So let's talk about something else that reflects

1387
01:10:57,800 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 1: your values. Tell us a little bit about the board list,

1388
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:05,080
Speaker 1: what it is and how it seems to be helping

1389
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:09,600
Speaker 1: women advance their careers. Sure well, if you recall I

1390
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:13,080
Speaker 1: wrote that open letter tech Women Choose Possibilities, and you said,

1391
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 1: how what was the reception? I said, it was very positive,

1392
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:16,600
Speaker 1: and people kept saying to me, like, what are you

1393
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:18,080
Speaker 1: going to do that? And of course I thought I

1394
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:19,800
Speaker 1: was just writing a letter, right, I was like, well,

1395
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:21,759
Speaker 1: did might just do it? I put out this opinion,

1396
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 1: and you know, but it became clear to me that

1397
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:26,360
Speaker 1: maybe there was something more to be done. And I

1398
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 1: had been kicking around the idea actually with a number

1399
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:32,840
Speaker 1: of dcs of them starting to put more women on

1400
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 1: tech boards. You know, they would come to me and say,

1401
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:37,040
Speaker 1: like the Kinder, what should we do about women in chests?

1402
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 1: And they have all these solutions for putting girls in

1403
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,200
Speaker 1: stems into which i'd bespont and like, you can do that,

1404
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:44,720
Speaker 1: but that will take generations. You realize that there meant

1405
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 1: plenty of amazing women leaders in the valley. I know them,

1406
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 1: I see them every day, Like, why don't you just

1407
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:52,360
Speaker 1: put them on your boards? Because you have all these

1408
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:55,960
Speaker 1: early stage companies that could really benefit from this experience.

1409
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 1: And ironically, you know, at that point were like oh oh,

1410
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:04,160
Speaker 1: like yeah, you're you're, you're right, but they didn't do

1411
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 1: anything about it. So when I started the Boardlist, a

1412
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 1: basically crowdsourced six names from thirty executives and entrepreneurs in

1413
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:13,400
Speaker 1: the valley and I said, would you give me the

1414
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:15,360
Speaker 1: names of women you think should serve on board? I'm

1415
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:17,800
Speaker 1: gonna put them on a website and then people can

1416
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,040
Speaker 1: come and look for great women leaders for their boards

1417
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:22,240
Speaker 1: and they can no longer say where are all the

1418
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 1: great women? We can't find any um, So we launched

1419
01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:28,600
Speaker 1: a free service called the board List UM. It's not

1420
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:31,000
Speaker 1: a nonprofit, but it is a mission driven kind of

1421
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:33,160
Speaker 1: It was a mission driven startup. I started it at

1422
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:36,800
Speaker 1: my side Hustle and twent and today the Boardlist is

1423
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:41,439
Speaker 1: twenty thousand members, over ten thousand women and diverse leaders

1424
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:44,479
Speaker 1: that you could go to the site today and look

1425
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:47,479
Speaker 1: for for your board. You can also recommend people to

1426
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 1: the board list. UM and so it's a marketplace for talent,

1427
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:53,640
Speaker 1: um for diverse talent, and today it serves not just

1428
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 1: women to people's color. And about a year ago we

1429
01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 1: raised our first institutional rand, so I bootstrapped it for

1430
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:02,000
Speaker 1: four years. I knew that you know, it was working,

1431
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:05,559
Speaker 1: which it is quite well, UM, and it's needed more

1432
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:09,320
Speaker 1: than ever. So the Boardlist is my my my own

1433
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 1: startup baby as the founder, but I'm not the full

1434
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:16,400
Speaker 1: time CEO. I haven't what's the what's the track record

1435
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 1: of the board List in actually getting women and people

1436
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 1: of color placed on the boards of startups? Um, the

1437
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:25,920
Speaker 1: track record is quite good. Now I would characterize the

1438
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:28,360
Speaker 1: track crack track track record two ways. Remember, we're not

1439
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:31,360
Speaker 1: a search firm, We're a discussed platform, which means our

1440
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:33,439
Speaker 1: core metric is like how many people come to the

1441
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:36,840
Speaker 1: board List and search and then ultimately, you know, find

1442
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 1: a board member, whether it's through us or whether we

1443
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:41,479
Speaker 1: were just part of their journey. And to date we've

1444
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:45,280
Speaker 1: helped over two thousand women, two thousand companies from early

1445
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:48,120
Speaker 1: stage to public have come to the board List searching

1446
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 1: for board members. UM. And as they said, the way

1447
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:52,760
Speaker 1: I think about the board List is sometimes we are

1448
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 1: the accelerated of the journey. Sometimes you find the exact

1449
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 1: person you want on our platform. We are, you know,

1450
01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:00,679
Speaker 1: we consider our role to be a sore of talent

1451
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:03,160
Speaker 1: um and to make sure that that board teak gets

1452
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 1: successfully filled. So um. Yeah, and the companies run from

1453
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:10,559
Speaker 1: Series A all the way to public public global companies.

1454
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:12,720
Speaker 1: I think a few years ago when an activist put

1455
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:14,920
Speaker 1: up to a United slate for the board, he used

1456
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:17,920
Speaker 1: the boardlist entirely to put up an alternate slate through

1457
01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 1: the board. Um, and we didn't even know if he

1458
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:22,000
Speaker 1: just gave us credit. Afterwards he's like, oh, I used

1459
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:27,160
Speaker 1: the boardlist for example. How how optimistic are you that

1460
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:32,280
Speaker 1: technology is at least starting to head in the right

1461
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 1: direction when it comes to both inclusion and diversity. Well,

1462
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:39,920
Speaker 1: first of all, I think there are two or three

1463
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 1: different ways into that question. Number one, there are lots

1464
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:45,240
Speaker 1: of platforms now that try and solve bias and discrimination

1465
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:50,320
Speaker 1: and everything from the hiring process to sourcing diverse talent um.

1466
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:52,360
Speaker 1: We're pretty unique and that we kind of you know,

1467
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,479
Speaker 1: are focused on the boardroom. Um. But to sort of

1468
01:14:55,520 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 1: take away by some discriminations from the hiring practice. Hiring process,

1469
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:01,439
Speaker 1: by the way, there's a whole other set of companies. Yeah,

1470
01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 1: I'm an investor in several that do things like, you know,

1471
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 1: help you confidentially report issues at the company in a

1472
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:09,040
Speaker 1: productive way before it ends ever ends up in the press,

1473
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 1: and give companies the chance to arbitrate and to solve

1474
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:15,280
Speaker 1: your problems right as an employee. So I think that

1475
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:18,759
Speaker 1: we're seeing all sorts of platforms that run from bison

1476
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:24,160
Speaker 1: discrimination to you know, anti harassment, to you know, proactive

1477
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:28,160
Speaker 1: consultation between companies and their employees to find solutions. So

1478
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:30,639
Speaker 1: I'd say that is a positive to see that much

1479
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 1: technology kind of solution ng you know, try and tackle

1480
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:37,720
Speaker 1: this problem in equality. That's great. Number two and I

1481
01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:40,360
Speaker 1: think this is important. People often say, like if you

1482
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:42,200
Speaker 1: want to be it, you need to see it. The

1483
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 1: number on absolute levels of women who are founding companies,

1484
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:49,640
Speaker 1: you know, compared to any prior period in my lifetime,

1485
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:52,480
Speaker 1: is up into the right. People may say the percentages

1486
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:55,360
Speaker 1: are still small, and that's true, but women are getting

1487
01:15:55,439 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 1: more venture capital. There's more pressure obviously not just put

1488
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 1: women on boards, but to provide funding is for women

1489
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 1: and diverse people of color to start companies. And look

1490
01:16:03,479 --> 01:16:05,960
Speaker 1: at the number of female unicorns that exists, the female

1491
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:08,680
Speaker 1: founded unicorns that exist today. I was lucky enough to

1492
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,000
Speaker 1: fund one of the first, Katrina Lake at stitch Fix.

1493
01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:13,719
Speaker 1: You know, I was her early investor and she worked

1494
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:15,840
Speaker 1: with me at poly Bore. But since then, you have

1495
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:19,120
Speaker 1: Whitney at Bubble, you have Rachel Carlson at Guild, you

1496
01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:21,840
Speaker 1: have um the founder of every Well, everywhere you look,

1497
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:25,400
Speaker 1: there are women starting not just great companies, but very

1498
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:29,599
Speaker 1: valuable companies. Audi at House houses the Unicorn several times over,

1499
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:32,720
Speaker 1: I'm sure. And and so there's lots of examples of

1500
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:36,000
Speaker 1: women who are building really valuable companies. So Canada, Canada

1501
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 1: just got funded at forty billion. It's got a Australians

1502
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:43,560
Speaker 1: emile founder. So I love seeing kind of these examples

1503
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:47,160
Speaker 1: because I think it really, you know, a it inspires

1504
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:49,680
Speaker 1: a whole generation of other diverse leaders to feel like

1505
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:52,240
Speaker 1: they can do it. But more importantly, for all of

1506
01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:55,200
Speaker 1: those VC dollars that you know had, you know, I

1507
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:57,800
Speaker 1: would just say unconscious fives going out and like under

1508
01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:01,280
Speaker 1: funding companies, they will be fomo about the companies they missed.

1509
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:04,000
Speaker 1: Maybe they need to look at their own funding practices

1510
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:07,080
Speaker 1: and figure out why they missed. Some of these great deals,

1511
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:09,880
Speaker 1: and often it comes back to you unconscious biased when

1512
01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 1: these women and diverse leaders are early on looking for money.

1513
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 1: So so let's talk a little bit about um. You

1514
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:19,920
Speaker 1: mentioned venture capital. I work in finance where there's clearly

1515
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,200
Speaker 1: a diversity issue with both women and people of color.

1516
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 1: It's very much been an old boys network for many,

1517
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:31,679
Speaker 1: many decades. Lots of signs that it's changing. Venture capital

1518
01:17:32,080 --> 01:17:36,320
Speaker 1: is actually worse than traditional Wall Street tell us about

1519
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 1: what has to happen for that to change, and are

1520
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:42,920
Speaker 1: you seeing signs that they too are moving in the

1521
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 1: right direction. Well, I think there are two types of

1522
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:48,719
Speaker 1: pressure that BC firms are under. First is from the LPs.

1523
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:50,400
Speaker 1: So the first thing that needs to change and is

1524
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:54,080
Speaker 1: changing is LPs. You know, the people who provide venture

1525
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:57,479
Speaker 1: you know, money to venture capitalists, demanding to see staff

1526
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:00,639
Speaker 1: on the rate at which they fund you know, people

1527
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:04,519
Speaker 1: of color and women like how you know how equality

1528
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:07,680
Speaker 1: driven as their own funding profile? LPs tablets all day

1529
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:09,519
Speaker 1: after that, and number two, what does the profile look

1530
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:12,439
Speaker 1: as the venture capital firm itself, like where their female partners?

1531
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:15,080
Speaker 1: You know, what's their own pipeline for development? Because we

1532
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:17,920
Speaker 1: know that when you're diverse, you fund more diversely as well,

1533
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:20,519
Speaker 1: right I E. Um, when you have more you know,

1534
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:24,080
Speaker 1: women as partners, more women get funded. UM. So I

1535
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:26,639
Speaker 1: think LP pressure is starting and it needs to continue.

1536
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 1: An LPs, I think need transparency on how your dollars

1537
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:33,240
Speaker 1: are distributed and need to ask for that how in

1538
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:36,439
Speaker 1: terms of pipeline versus deal bigger closed? And then number

1539
01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:40,719
Speaker 1: two pressure to keep these PC firms getting more diverse.

1540
01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:44,360
Speaker 1: The second thing is it's what identified is like the

1541
01:18:44,520 --> 01:18:47,599
Speaker 1: inflicted pressure of performance as we start to see more

1542
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:50,679
Speaker 1: kind of companies that don't look like the average Valley company.

1543
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:52,840
Speaker 1: And I don't just mean it's a woman or person

1544
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:55,599
Speaker 1: of color. It could be a company that started in Canada,

1545
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:57,800
Speaker 1: It could be a company that started in Kansas, It

1546
01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:00,720
Speaker 1: could be a company that started in India. Like like,

1547
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:04,400
Speaker 1: that doesn't fit the normal pattern. You know, dollars slow

1548
01:19:04,520 --> 01:19:07,040
Speaker 1: to where there's money. And so I think the other

1549
01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:09,200
Speaker 1: type of pressure is actually just performance pressure as you

1550
01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:11,639
Speaker 1: see you know, companies that don't come from your traditional

1551
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:15,560
Speaker 1: backgrounds and founders either that perform. There's nothing like that

1552
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:17,439
Speaker 1: kind of pressure, which is like, wow, what am I

1553
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:19,120
Speaker 1: missing out on that? I need to be a part

1554
01:19:19,160 --> 01:19:21,639
Speaker 1: of so I think both kinds of pressure need to happen,

1555
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 1: performance pressure as well as LP pressure. So I know

1556
01:19:25,479 --> 01:19:28,200
Speaker 1: I only have you for a few minutes. Let's jump

1557
01:19:28,280 --> 01:19:32,160
Speaker 1: to our favorite questions that we ask all of our guests,

1558
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 1: starting with tell us what you've been streaming these days?

1559
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:39,519
Speaker 1: Give us your favorite Netflix or Amazon Prime or podcast,

1560
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:45,760
Speaker 1: whatever is keeping you entertained during the pandemic. Sure, well,

1561
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:47,600
Speaker 1: I probably have three that are at the top of

1562
01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:49,479
Speaker 1: my list these days. First of all, Ted laugh Tho,

1563
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:52,519
Speaker 1: I know about you, but my family's loves Ted Lasso.

1564
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:57,439
Speaker 1: Such a feel good, funny, um funny show, so well done.

1565
01:19:57,600 --> 01:19:59,560
Speaker 1: Season two not so good as season one, but I

1566
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:02,439
Speaker 1: will just we're still tad laughs of die Hard Um

1567
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:06,519
Speaker 1: On Amazon. A girlfriend of mine recommended mc mafia, which

1568
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:10,400
Speaker 1: is actually a pretty um interesting for those of you

1569
01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 1: who like uh, I would say finance or financial services

1570
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:19,439
Speaker 1: and the Mob. It's a fictional series on a British

1571
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 1: Russian financier who gets involved with the wrong folks. That's

1572
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:26,160
Speaker 1: a really um niche one and an interesting one. It's

1573
01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:29,040
Speaker 1: been a great series to watch. Succession. I'm waiting for

1574
01:20:29,360 --> 01:20:31,720
Speaker 1: you know season two. I mean we all watched Succession

1575
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: and then I would say on the podcast side right now, actually,

1576
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:40,680
Speaker 1: I am listening to do separate podcasts about um Elizabeth

1577
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:43,840
Speaker 1: Holmes trial wants to drop out from ABC, and the

1578
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:47,400
Speaker 1: other one is Out for Bad Blood from John Kerry,

1579
01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:49,240
Speaker 1: you who, as you know, is the original kind of

1580
01:20:50,200 --> 01:20:53,760
Speaker 1: journalist on this story. So I like listening to smart

1581
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:57,080
Speaker 1: people that have just keep me abreast on on the trial,

1582
01:20:57,560 --> 01:20:59,960
Speaker 1: really interesting stuff. Tell us about some of your mentors

1583
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:04,720
Speaker 1: who helped shape your career. Well. First of all, my dad.

1584
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:06,920
Speaker 1: I always talked about the fact that he was a doctor,

1585
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:09,360
Speaker 1: but he was also an entrepreneur and he really loved

1586
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:11,960
Speaker 1: working for himself, and I think he made the idea

1587
01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:15,560
Speaker 1: of entrepreneurship so accessible for me. Remember he's also the

1588
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:17,479
Speaker 1: guy who told me to take that trade trip down

1589
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:20,439
Speaker 1: to New York that led to the job with Mary Lynch.

1590
01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 1: Like if there was ever a champion of possibilities, even

1591
01:21:23,479 --> 01:21:25,840
Speaker 1: small ones all the time, it was my father. So

1592
01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:29,240
Speaker 1: he is my pre eminent mentor for sure. And then

1593
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:30,920
Speaker 1: I think the other group I had point to is,

1594
01:21:31,160 --> 01:21:32,920
Speaker 1: you know, I've been lucky to have a lot of

1595
01:21:33,120 --> 01:21:35,439
Speaker 1: kind of great people I worked for. They often are

1596
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:37,519
Speaker 1: my best mentors because they know me well, and I

1597
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:40,600
Speaker 1: know them well. Um, all the tribe a jungie. We

1598
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:43,719
Speaker 1: talked about those four Indian entrepreneurs who started that company

1599
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:46,200
Speaker 1: that I joined. I mean, my god. They became an

1600
01:21:46,280 --> 01:21:49,400
Speaker 1: angel investors in Yodeli, my next company. They introduced me

1601
01:21:49,520 --> 01:21:53,040
Speaker 1: that opportunity. UM. One of them, Rom Scherry Ram was

1602
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:56,280
Speaker 1: the first investor in Google. So when I made the

1603
01:21:56,320 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 1: decision to go to go to Google, and they called

1604
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:00,679
Speaker 1: me because Rob pushed both of us us. He pushed

1605
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:03,080
Speaker 1: them to call me and need to consider it. Um.

1606
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:06,800
Speaker 1: And you know when the situation went awry at Polly War,

1607
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:09,160
Speaker 1: the number one person I called was a guy named

1608
01:22:09,160 --> 01:22:12,160
Speaker 1: Bankey Harry and Ryan, one of those Juggli founders and

1609
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:14,840
Speaker 1: the one I was closest to who continue to know

1610
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:17,400
Speaker 1: me and invest in all the companies I founded. And

1611
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:18,920
Speaker 1: I just said, what do I do here? And he

1612
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:20,720
Speaker 1: was the one who could have gave me the like,

1613
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:23,439
Speaker 1: look me straight in the eye. Are these people you're tribe?

1614
01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:26,040
Speaker 1: Do they have your values? Advice? And tell me to

1615
01:22:26,280 --> 01:22:29,439
Speaker 1: get the hell out. So, UM, I really considered bank

1616
01:22:29,479 --> 01:22:31,559
Speaker 1: you probably the closest among that group, but all four

1617
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,519
Speaker 1: have been very instrumental in my career. Let's talk a

1618
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:37,200
Speaker 1: little bit about books. What are some of your favorites

1619
01:22:37,479 --> 01:22:40,960
Speaker 1: and what are you reading right now. Well, one of

1620
01:22:41,040 --> 01:22:44,000
Speaker 1: my favorites, I'm like a very kind of speeky business person.

1621
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:46,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes I don't like to read all business books, but

1622
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:48,360
Speaker 1: there's something I really love. One of my favorites is

1623
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:51,240
Speaker 1: McKenzie's Growth Beyond the hockey Stick. So, if you're a

1624
01:22:51,360 --> 01:22:53,840
Speaker 1: leader or CEO, who's always you ever grappling with how

1625
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:56,040
Speaker 1: to get your company to grow faster? And obviously it's

1626
01:22:56,040 --> 01:22:58,720
Speaker 1: stub hub. I was trying to accelerate growth um and

1627
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:01,200
Speaker 1: just paradigms for what works. It's like the new good

1628
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:03,400
Speaker 1: to Great. I always love Jim Collins Good to Great,

1629
01:23:03,680 --> 01:23:06,799
Speaker 1: but great. Growth Beyond the hockey Stick is McKinsey's analysis

1630
01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 1: of that of what makes top performing companies over a

1631
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:12,360
Speaker 1: thirty year period, and it's just got lots of kind

1632
01:23:12,400 --> 01:23:15,080
Speaker 1: of anecdotes I love. So that's the favorite business one

1633
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:17,559
Speaker 1: that I always recommend. And then right now I'm reading

1634
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:20,200
Speaker 1: Automic Habitts. You know, Automic Habits has long been on

1635
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:23,439
Speaker 1: the best seller list, UM, and I wanted to know why.

1636
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:25,120
Speaker 1: So I'm in the midst of reading it and so

1637
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:27,400
Speaker 1: far it lives up to its billing. Is just being

1638
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:32,880
Speaker 1: refreshing simple, um surprisingly intuitive, Yet we don't do it enough.

1639
01:23:33,400 --> 01:23:37,040
Speaker 1: M quite quite interesting. What sort of advice would you

1640
01:23:37,160 --> 01:23:40,040
Speaker 1: give to a recent college grad who was interested in

1641
01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:46,160
Speaker 1: a career in either entrepreneurship, technology venture capital? What what

1642
01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:49,880
Speaker 1: would you tell someone like that? UM, I would say, Well,

1643
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:52,879
Speaker 1: on the entrepreneurship and technology side, I would say, get proximate.

1644
01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:56,799
Speaker 1: You know I And today, luckily for us, getting proximate

1645
01:23:56,880 --> 01:23:58,840
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you need to move to Silicon Valley. We

1646
01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:00,880
Speaker 1: all live in a hybrid world. Old, But if you're

1647
01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:03,120
Speaker 1: contemplating to move into one of those areas and you

1648
01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:06,080
Speaker 1: don't know what it looks like like literally, maybe as

1649
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:09,000
Speaker 1: simple as you know, doing a couple of informational interviews

1650
01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:11,200
Speaker 1: with people you find on linked In and maybe tapping

1651
01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 1: your closing network and you know, figuring out who's doing

1652
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:16,720
Speaker 1: something entrepreneurial and going to shadow them, and maybe like

1653
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:19,360
Speaker 1: finding a side hustle, where's your new day you're at

1654
01:24:19,360 --> 01:24:22,640
Speaker 1: a large company in the evening, you're moonlighting. These are

1655
01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:25,000
Speaker 1: always to get proximate to what you know. And I'd

1656
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:27,880
Speaker 1: say that's far more the case for entrepreneurship and technology,

1657
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 1: because there are so many sort of gig economy hustles

1658
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:33,920
Speaker 1: that you could do to learn before you ever make

1659
01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:36,720
Speaker 1: a bigger move. UM venture capital is a much more

1660
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:39,200
Speaker 1: kind of traditional path. I would say, like, you can

1661
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:41,640
Speaker 1: get there from technology um, but then they want to

1662
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:44,240
Speaker 1: see that you've accomplished something inside of technology company, so

1663
01:24:44,360 --> 01:24:47,040
Speaker 1: that's possible. The other path is obviously a more traditional

1664
01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:50,680
Speaker 1: finance path through like you know business school and you

1665
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:55,639
Speaker 1: know classic financial training or consulting training. And our final question,

1666
01:24:56,320 --> 01:24:59,120
Speaker 1: what do you know about the world of g I

1667
01:24:59,200 --> 01:25:05,840
Speaker 1: could say finance, entrepreneurship, technology, venture capital today that you

1668
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:08,519
Speaker 1: wish you knew thirty years or so ago when you

1669
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:13,320
Speaker 1: were first getting started. What do I would know today

1670
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:15,120
Speaker 1: that I wish I knew that I always say to people,

1671
01:25:15,280 --> 01:25:17,640
Speaker 1: like I think what I wish I knew then is

1672
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:19,560
Speaker 1: that it doesn't need to be a mighty choice to

1673
01:25:19,720 --> 01:25:22,360
Speaker 1: enter these areas. You can enter in a small way.

1674
01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:24,720
Speaker 1: And like I said, I made, I made what I

1675
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:27,200
Speaker 1: would consider now a relatively small move. Yes, I quit

1676
01:25:27,280 --> 01:25:29,200
Speaker 1: my job, but I was like in my mid twenties

1677
01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 1: and I moved to Silicon Valley, Like I would just

1678
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:33,760
Speaker 1: say this idea that you don't have to have the

1679
01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:36,760
Speaker 1: big idea to get started. The big idea can come later.

1680
01:25:37,400 --> 01:25:40,640
Speaker 1: Just get close and start with something small. For me,

1681
01:25:40,760 --> 01:25:42,680
Speaker 1: that was a move to this area. For other is

1682
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:44,519
Speaker 1: as I said, it might be tapping into a side

1683
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:47,960
Speaker 1: hustle or opening an st store like you can learn

1684
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:51,559
Speaker 1: everything you need to know about these areas in small acts,

1685
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:56,200
Speaker 1: not waiting for one big, perfect idea to show up

1686
01:25:56,280 --> 01:26:01,519
Speaker 1: and galvanize you really really, really int rereaking uh Sekenda.

1687
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:05,479
Speaker 1: Thank you for being so generous with your time. We

1688
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:09,640
Speaker 1: have been speaking with Kindersin Cassidy, author of the new

1689
01:26:09,720 --> 01:26:13,320
Speaker 1: book which I have right here, Choose Possibility, take risks,

1690
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:17,560
Speaker 1: and thrive even when you fail. If you enjoy this conversation,

1691
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Speaker 1: be sure and check out all our previous interviews we've

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Speaker 1: conducted over the past seven years. There are about three

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Speaker 1: hundred and eighty two of them. You can find those

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Speaker 1: at iTunes, Spotify, wherever you feed your podcast fix. We

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Speaker 1: love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us at

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Speaker 1: up for my daily reading list at Rid Halts dot com.

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Speaker 1: Check out my weekly column at Bloomberg dot com. Slash opinion.

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Speaker 1: Follow me on Twitter at rid Halts. I would be

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Speaker 1: remiss if I did not thank the correct team that

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Speaker 1: helps us put these conversations together each week. Mohammed is

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Speaker 1: my audio engineer, Artika val Bron is my project manager.

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Speaker 1: Michael Batnick is my head of research. Paris Wald is

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Speaker 1: my producer. I'm barried, Halts. You've been listening to Master's

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