1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:01,280 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk. 2 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 2: Well, I'm Buzz Night, the host of the Taking a 3 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 2: Walk podcast, and welcome. We have a special episode here 4 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 2: with Chris della Riva. He's the author of a book 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: called Uncharted Territory, What Numbers tell Us about the biggest 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 2: hit songs and ourselves. And Chris, I'm so excited to 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 2: talk to you about this book. I'm kind of a 8 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 2: numbers geek in my own way, so I'm fascinated by 9 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: the storyline. You got a few things we're going to 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 2: tantalize people about, aren't we. I hope so, Like, for example, 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 2: hit songs in the nineteen fifties, they were regularly about 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: gruesome deaths. 13 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 3: Not the topic you would think for a pop song, 14 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 3: but yes, pretty common. 15 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 2: Well, you know what, podcasts can kind of uncover this, 16 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: so don't worry about it. We're going to get to 17 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 2: the bottom of it, Chris. So let's pay some bills 18 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: and come right back with Chris Della Riva Taking a Walk. Well, 19 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 2: thanks for being on Chris on the Take on a 20 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 2: Walk podcast. It's nice to be with you in person 21 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 2: here at the iHeart Studios in Midtown Manhattan, So thanks 22 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 2: for coming on by. 23 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was really happy we could get together in person. 24 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 2: So before I embark on talking about your book, Uncharted Territory, 25 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: what numbers tell us about the biggest hit songs and ourselves? 26 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: I do have to subject you to our opening taking 27 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 2: a walk question. Since we call this taking a walk, Chris, 28 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 2: if you could take a walk with someone living or dead, 29 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: and I'm gonna really ask you to make it someone 30 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: around music, who would that person be and where would 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 2: you take that walk with him? 32 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 3: I knew this one was coming, obviously, but I still 33 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 3: a tough question. I feel like, in terms of musicians, 34 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 3: if there's anyone I could take a walk with, my 35 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 3: musical hero has been and remains Bruce Springsteen as a 36 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 3: good Jersey boy. So I feel like a walk with 37 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 3: Bruce Springsteen would be great also because not only do 38 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 3: I like his music, but anytime I listen to him 39 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 3: talk about music, it's very clear that the man is 40 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 3: a student of the game, and his knowledge about music 41 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 3: history and how the music industry works is obviously so 42 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 3: deep if you've ever get a chance. In twenty twelve, 43 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 3: he gave a great keynote address at south By Southwest, 44 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 3: and he sort of covers his career but he's really 45 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 3: talking about the rise and I guess fall sort of 46 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 3: fall of rock music over the decades. And he's just 47 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 3: very astute and very eloquent on the topic. So the 48 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 3: man can not only write music, but he seems like 49 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 3: he'd be a good conversational partner too. 50 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 2: Any particular place in New Jersey, I assume Chris that 51 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: you would go with him to take a walk. 52 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 3: I mean you'd have to go to one of the 53 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 3: classic Springsteen spots that he sings about, probably somewhere at 54 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 3: the Jersey Shore, probably in Asbury Park, which is where 55 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 3: the Stone Pony is, which is a club that he 56 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 3: came up at. I actually saw him play at See 57 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 3: Here Now, which is a festival they do in Asbury 58 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 3: Park on the Shore every year for the last couple 59 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 3: of years now, and he headlined it last year and 60 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 3: it was sort of a cool homecoming show. I feel 61 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 3: like it would be fun to go relive a lot 62 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 3: of those spots down where he made his name initially. 63 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: Oh and I love that area for sure. The company 64 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 2: I used to work for own some of those radio 65 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: stations down there, particularly the Rat Oh yeah, right, And 66 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: so we visited The Stone Pony one year at one 67 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: of the trips, and I have to prove it that 68 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: I made that trip. I've got a T shirt at 69 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: Pony T Shirt and a little secret I'll let you 70 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: and the audience in on. My wife has essentially banned 71 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 2: me from wearing this T shirt anymore in the future. 72 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: She said it needs to be relegated to the T 73 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: Shirt Hall of Fame Museum, which I didn't even know 74 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 2: existed in my own house. The reason being there's too 75 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: many holes underneath. That's just it's been really worn. It's 76 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: one of my favorite shirts, so I'm not getting rid 77 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: of it, but it is going to stay for sure 78 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: in the closet. 79 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 3: I think I've had a few T shirts inducted into 80 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 3: the Hall of Fame over the years. 81 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: You can't help that. You got to keep them. 82 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, they also band and music T shirts are classics 83 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 3: in the Hall of Fame because you'll wear them until 84 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: they're literally falling apart. 85 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: It's a badge of honor. 86 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 87 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: So tell me about the first moment that you became 88 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 2: connected with music, because it's obvious you are fascinated by 89 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 2: data analytics. You work for a music streaming service called 90 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: audio Mac. But when in your life was the first 91 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: person that you first point that you knew you were, 92 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: you know, connected and loved music. 93 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 3: So my current shtick is, and with the book, is 94 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 3: again connecting music with data. How can we quantify certain 95 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 3: things about MU to investigate things we hear in history 96 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 3: see if they're actually hold ups to a scrutiny. But 97 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 3: my initial love for music is that I loved listening 98 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 3: to music. I love playing music. I don't come from 99 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 3: a musical family in the sense that my parents weren't 100 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: singing or playing the piano around the house. My parents 101 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 3: love music. It was always in and around the house, 102 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 3: you know. I was always digging through my dad's CD 103 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 3: and cassette collections to find stuff. And probably when I 104 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 3: was in fifth or sixth grade, I started playing taking 105 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 3: guitar lessons, and I was immediately enamored with trying to 106 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 3: write my own song, start bands. And anytime there would be, 107 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 3: you know, a battle of the bands or some event 108 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: at the high school or in and around town, I 109 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 3: was sure to rope a bunch of people, whether I 110 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 3: was good friends with them or not, into playing a 111 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 3: set with me. And that's still I think the motivating 112 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 3: factor for me is I still love to sit down, 113 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 3: write music and play music, and later when I got 114 00:05:55,320 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: interested or learned about data analytics, it just became a 115 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 3: natural pairing for me, which I think for a lot 116 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 3: of people's odd I feel like, growing up, you're often 117 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 3: told you like English and history, or you like math 118 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 3: and science. But to me, they've always lived together in 119 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 3: some sort of harmony. So I like to bring these 120 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 3: things together, you know, to illuminate ideas that might otherwise 121 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 3: escape us. 122 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: So were you one of these folks who you know, 123 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: knew the A side and the B side of A 124 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 2: forty five when it was released? And who the you 125 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: know publishers were or whatever? I mean? Did you were you? 126 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 2: Were you someone who knew that degree of detail besides 127 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: the analytics or is that a little different? 128 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 3: No, I think I think it's all related. If once 129 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 3: you start collecting information about songs, you know who produced 130 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 3: the song and who wrote the song, which label put 131 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 3: it out is just as interesting as what instruments were 132 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 3: played on the track. That certainly came a little bit 133 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 3: later for me, of course, you know the I think 134 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 3: that would be a weird angle to first come to 135 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 3: music for as like who produced this track? I think 136 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: Initially it's just like I love this song. I love 137 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 3: it so much. I love these artists that I want 138 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 3: to know more about it. And then you start flipping 139 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 3: over to the B side. Then you start looking, Oh, 140 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 3: this same producer produced all these songs I love. Who 141 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 3: is this guy or gal? So I am into that stuff. 142 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 3: But to me, it was always secondary, so just a 143 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 3: love of music. 144 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: Do you ever see the movie Diner? No? 145 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 3: I haven't. 146 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 2: Oh, you got to see it. It's a one of 147 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: the classic I would call it. Really, it was a 148 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,559 Speaker 2: kind of a cult movie that became a classic movie. 149 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: And it's basically, you know, all the guys that grew 150 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:51,119 Speaker 2: up together in the Baltimore area who are all intertwined, 151 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: and they go to the Diner after they you know, 152 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 2: have been out hanging out till all hours and just 153 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: you know, shoot the breeze. You got to see it. 154 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: There's a particular piece of Diner where Daniel Stern, the 155 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: character he plays, and he's married in the movie to 156 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: Ellen Barkin, and in that particular scene, he explains to 157 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: her how important it is for his record collection to 158 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: be filed perfectly, and he's actually pretty mean to her 159 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 2: over it, really, and she just says, I just want 160 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 2: to listen to the music, but see the movie. The 161 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 2: scenes remarkable. But it speaks to my question in terms 162 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: of the degree of detail. Because Daniel's character knew the 163 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: A side, the B side, he knew what it meant 164 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 2: to him the first time he heard it, the first 165 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: time he heard a particular song when he met her, 166 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: you know, all the things that are emotionally attached to it. 167 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: So definitely recommend. So what was the ultimate motivation for 168 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 2: you to write Uncharted Territory? 169 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 3: It was something I feel like I accidentally fell into 170 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 3: right when I graduated college. I was working in the 171 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 3: exciting world of economic consulting and I was still playing 172 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 3: in bands. But I needed like an outlet from this job. 173 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 3: It was just very long hours. I didn't particularly like it. 174 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 3: I mean, it was a good job out of college. 175 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 3: So I came up with this quest. I was like, 176 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 3: I'm going to listen to every number one hit on 177 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 3: the Billboard Hot one hundred in history. The Hot one 178 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 3: hundred started in August nineteen fifty eight. It has changed 179 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 3: over the years, but it still exists in name till today. 180 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: So I would listen to one song per day. I'd 181 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 3: usually play along on my guitar. I track some information 182 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 3: about the songs, and it was just a nice I 183 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 3: don't know reprieve from my job at the end of 184 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 3: the day. Slowly again, but I worked with data in 185 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 3: this job, so I gain and I had a spreadsheet 186 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 3: I would try. I would like rate the songs, and 187 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 3: I would do it with a friend. But slowly I 188 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 3: started adding other things to the spreadsheet, to the things 189 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 3: you're talking about. What label put out the song, who 190 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: wrote it? How long is the song? Doesn't have an introduction? 191 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 3: I don't know, is there a saxophone on the song? 192 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 3: You name it? It's probably in this giant spreadsheet, which 193 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 3: I've since put online for anyone to take a look at. 194 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: But I got about fifty songs in it felt like 195 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 3: I noticed some trends. I was like, maybe I'll write 196 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 3: something up about this. I sent it off to a 197 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 3: professor I had in college and he was like, yeah, 198 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 3: this is pretty good. You should keep at it. So 199 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 3: at the time I never published, I'd never published anything, 200 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 3: but just over years and years, I would listen to 201 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 3: the number one hits I had this spreadsheet. I would 202 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 3: notice some trends. I would write a little bit more 203 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 3: about it, and I was like, I should try to 204 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 3: get this published. I would show it to people occasionally 205 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 3: they would seem to like it because the approach, again 206 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 3: was it's a data driven history of popular music. So 207 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: I usually just say it's music history, but with some 208 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 3: charts and graphs that illuminate what's going on. And it 209 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 3: took years and years, probably actually took eight years from 210 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 3: the time I initially tried to pitch this book to people. 211 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 3: But yeah, it just sort of accidentally happened. It started 212 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 3: with this weird quest to listen to every number one hit, 213 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 3: and then I just wanted to write about things I 214 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 3: was observing along the way, and it turned into a book. 215 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 3: But that was not the plan initially. 216 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 2: And you said to yourself, it's too late to turn 217 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 2: back now. Yeah, I believe. Oh sorry, I couldn't help it. 218 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 3: No, that's I mean. Then, initially I got to a 219 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 3: point where I was like, all right, I have to 220 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 3: I have hundreds of pages here. I need to Someone's 221 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 3: got to read this no matter what. So I was 222 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 3: lucky enough to eventually find a publisher, which is the 223 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 3: story of that is kind of funny. I am pretty 224 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 3: active on TikTok and I would post about these number 225 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 3: one songs sometimes, and I posted about this song want 226 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,319 Speaker 3: Ads by Honey Cone, which was a number one in 227 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 3: the seventies for the most part Hot Wax Records, and 228 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 3: this guy who wrote for Billboards saw it. He sent 229 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 3: me an email, and then ultimately he connected me with 230 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 3: this publisher. So my journey through the number ones ended 231 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 3: up helping me get the book published too. But yeah, 232 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 3: I did get to the point where I was like, 233 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 3: I can't go back now. I gotta figure out how 234 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 3: to get this out there. 235 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 2: But it was being seen on TikTok that kind of 236 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 2: drove that first connection. Yeah. 237 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was pitching agents and publishers on and off 238 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 3: for years, but I didn't only have any connections in 239 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 3: that world. I never really published anything, and it was 240 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 3: just this off the cuff TikTok about an obscure number 241 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 3: one hit that I love that ended up doing the trick. 242 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 2: So I love that. So the book covers the period 243 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 2: from nineteen fifty eight to twenty twenty five. And you 244 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 2: said in your note to me, also in its own way, 245 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 2: this journey, you know, kind of saved your life a 246 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: bit when you think about it in terms of you 247 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 2: know how music is important and what it what it 248 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: means to us. You know, we have this other podcast 249 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 2: called Music Save Me, and it's you know, often leans 250 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 2: on the healing powers certainly of music, but in general 251 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 2: what music means to us all you know, is a 252 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 2: saving grace for sure. So you found as you were 253 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: more immersed into this, you found songs that you knew 254 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 2: that you loved, and it probably made you love those 255 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 2: songs even more. But also it allowed you to discover 256 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 2: a lot of music that you had never heard before. 257 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 3: Totally. Yeah, Like I said, at the time I started 258 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 3: this weird little quest, I wasn't I wasn't particularly happy 259 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 3: with my day to day life, and this was a 260 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 3: nice little musical reprieve at the end of the day, 261 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 3: it was it was a might. When I've described this 262 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 3: to my sister years later, she was like, you know, 263 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 3: it just sounds like a healthy outlet for whatever you 264 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 3: were feeling at the time. But at the same time, 265 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 3: I started doing this with a friend. We would both 266 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 3: listen to the songs and we would text about the song. 267 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 3: But then over the time I started always bringing in 268 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 3: a third person to also listen to the song for 269 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 3: a stretch and everyone would rate the song. I track 270 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 3: all the ratings, and that's also part of the book, 271 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 3: Like at the end of each chapter, I give you 272 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 3: the highest and lowest rated songs of each era that's 273 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 3: covered in the chapter. But it was also a nice 274 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 3: way to bond with other people in my life. 275 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: You know. 276 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 3: I would occasionally invite friends along to rate a stretch 277 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: of song number one hits. I would occasionally invite you know, 278 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 3: my mom and my dad would come on for a 279 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 3: stretch from when they were like in high school. And 280 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 3: it was a nice way to connect with people across 281 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 3: time about music. And it really did, to your point, 282 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 3: show how music is for me. It really is a 283 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 3: social thing. It's meant to bring people together. As much 284 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 3: as we listen to so much music by ourselves these days, 285 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 3: it's a social art form, I think. 286 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 2: And it's community. I mean, I believe on an episode 287 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: somewhere of the podcast, I've told the story, but going 288 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: to college at the University of Dayton and Dayton, Ohio 289 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: and working that was the first radio work that I 290 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: did there out at a college station. WVUD was the 291 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: name of it. When one of our favorite bands put 292 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 2: out something new, I'll use Steely Dan as a great example. 293 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 2: The you know, small community group of us, two or 294 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 2: three of us would be so ravenous to hear what 295 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: was new off of Steely Dan that you know, we'd 296 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: get together and we'd listen from cover to cover and. 297 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 4: It would allow you know, comments and oh this reminds 298 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 4: me of this from the first album, or oh my god, 299 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 4: what are they doing here? And it was this community, 300 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 4: you know, discourse and connection that was such a memorable 301 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 4: part about first experience in so much music. So I 302 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 4: think you make an excellent point, how as the times 303 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 4: of change music and community other. 304 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: Than concerts, certainly, because that's community. It's different based on 305 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 2: people's lifestyle and ways to consume music. 306 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. I mean, if you go back far enough, 307 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 3: I mean music is a very social thing. Think about 308 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 3: like the eighteen hundreds, you know, people getting around the 309 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 3: piano and singing a song. That was like a form 310 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 3: of entertainment in the pre radio and television world. And 311 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 3: I think we've lost a little bit of that, but 312 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 3: I think it's important to remember that that's ultimately what 313 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 3: music is. It's a community building thing. It's something that 314 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 3: people perform in churches and at funerals, and it still 315 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 3: has that power even though most people their musical experiences 316 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 3: popping in their earbuds and listening as they walked down 317 00:16:58,240 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 3: the street or at work or whatever. 318 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's way different. First concert you ever went. 319 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 3: To, by the way, first concert I went. My first 320 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 3: two concerts I went to were in the same week. 321 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 3: I was very into classic rock growing up as a kid, 322 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 3: and we went to The Who and The Rolling Stones 323 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 3: in like six days, probably around two thousand and five 324 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 3: or two thousand and six. So that was a big 325 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 3: week for Chris growing up. So The Who was first 326 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 3: and the Rolling Stones were second, though my memories of 327 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 3: those shows are not as vivid as you might think. 328 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 3: The strangest thing about that Rolling Stones concert was the 329 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: opener was Kanye West. Wow, which I don't like. I'm 330 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 3: always looking back and always like how who set that up? 331 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 2: Well, but the bills, if you study those, I'm sure 332 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 2: you have of the concert bills way back, you know, 333 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: really produced these you know, things that converged and that 334 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 2: didn't converge in terms of the way lineups were and 335 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,959 Speaker 2: the Stones over their career, I mean, they were certainly 336 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 2: always known for, you know, just bringing someone out that was, 337 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: you know, maybe a little bit different than or vastly different, 338 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 2: you know. I mean I remember Stevie Wonder, you know, 339 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 2: opening for the Rolling Stones on a particular tour as 340 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 2: an example, you know, early on in his career, and 341 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: you know, obviously way earlier in their career. Where were 342 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 2: those shows? Were they in New York? Uh? 343 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, they were? 344 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 3: Well, the Rolling Stone show was at MetLife Stadium formerly 345 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 3: Giants Stadium in East ruther for New Jersey, and the 346 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 3: Who show was at the P ANDC Arts Center or 347 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 3: it used to be the Garden State Arts Center, which 348 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 3: is a little bit down the Parkway in New Jersey. 349 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more the Taking a Walk Podcast. 350 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast. 351 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 2: First music that you bought, whether it be album or 352 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 2: you know whatever CD. 353 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 3: I was talking about. This was someone the other day. 354 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 3: I like the era I grew up in, like pop 355 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 3: punk was a very big thing, and I feel like 356 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 3: they must have had this on like the Disney Channel 357 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,239 Speaker 3: or something, because this band's simple, Simple Plan was a 358 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 3: big pop punk band at the time. I actually saw 359 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 3: them in concert a few weeks ago. Coincidentally, that was 360 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 3: probably the their first album was probably the first CD 361 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 3: I bought, and I was like, I felt like this 362 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 3: was my own thing. But right around the same time, 363 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 3: I was also super into a CDC, so it's also 364 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 3: possible that there was an ac DC album purchased as 365 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 3: my first album. But it's either one of those two. 366 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 5: It gets hazy, I realize, Yeah, yeah, trust me, I know. 367 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 5: So all right, we teased this at the outset. Hit 368 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 5: songs in the nineteen fifties were regularly about gruesome death. 369 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 5: Tell me about this dark story. 370 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, so this was also sort of what started the book. 371 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 3: I got through about fifty number one hits and I 372 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 3: was like, sort of weird. There's a lot of number 373 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 3: ones about people dying, and they're like war people fighting, 374 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 3: which to me, having grown up in the two thousands, 375 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't associate the most popular songs in 376 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 3: the land with those topics. But there was this trend 377 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 3: at the time, and they come to be known as 378 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 3: teenage tragedy songs. Quintessential examples would be like Marked Dinning's 379 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 3: Teen Angel, The Shangri Laws, Leader of the Pack, dead 380 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 3: Man's Curve, and the way these songs typically go is 381 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 3: there's a young couple usually teenagers in love and one 382 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 3: of them dies tragically, and then you know, they sometimes 383 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 3: say they'll reunite again in the afterlife or something like that. 384 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 3: The Teen Angel Song by Marked Inning is I think 385 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 3: maybe the most quintessential example. It's super melodramatic. Teen couple 386 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 3: targets caught on the railroad tracks. They get out for 387 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 3: the train hits them, and the girl goes running back 388 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 3: to get the ring that the guy gave or she 389 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: ends up dying, and you're like, what the this is 390 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 3: dark stuff? Why was this ever popular? And in the 391 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 3: book I posit a couple of reasons. I mean, songs 392 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 3: of that nature historically have been around for hundreds of years, 393 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 3: and part of that might just be a connection to 394 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 3: the fact that, you know, the world used to be 395 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 3: more violent and people dying young used to be much 396 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,479 Speaker 3: more common than it is today, especially in the United States. 397 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 3: But I think there's a lot of things that happened 398 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 3: specifically at the beginning of the twentieth century that influenced it. 399 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 3: Tons of tragedies, World wars, the Holocaust, Great Depression, influenza pandemic. 400 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 3: I mean, there was a lot of tragic death leading 401 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 3: up to this period. At the same time, you have 402 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 3: the teenage demographic emerge for the first time. If you 403 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 3: go back far enough, there is no such thing as teenagers, 404 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 3: and like the fifteen hundreds, it's you're a child and 405 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 3: then you're an adult. But after World War Two, with 406 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 3: an economic boom in the United States, there's more disposable 407 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 3: income going around, the rise of compulsory education, where you're 408 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 3: having people in this mid period of their lives being 409 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 3: forced to spend all day together. Culture starts to emerge 410 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 3: around that, and this is music about teens. It's depressing, 411 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 3: but it is about this emergent demographic at the time. 412 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 3: It's weird to think about as like being a teenager, 413 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 3: such a something that everyone is so aware of, but 414 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 3: it's in the grand scheme of things, sort of a 415 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 3: newish idea. 416 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: Well, and there's one other piece probably that was going 417 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: on with some of this, at least in the storyline 418 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,239 Speaker 2: of this or the background of it, and that is 419 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 2: you know, hormones raging. Yeah, I mean you got to 420 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 2: include that as well. That makes a storyline. Yes, that 421 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 2: always helps, It always helps, all right. 422 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 6: The next fact, it takes twice as many people to 423 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 6: write a hit today. 424 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: As it did in the nineteen sixties. 425 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is one that you could view this 426 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 3: in many different ways. You could view this as like, oh, 427 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 3: songwriters have gotten less skilled, so they need more help. 428 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 3: I don't think that's the case. But there has been 429 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 3: a huge increase in how songs are written from basically 430 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty to around nineteen ninety. The standards two people, 431 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 3: and when you think of songwriters of that era, usually 432 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 3: you're thinking in duos, even if they always weren't working 433 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 3: in a due Elton John Bernie Taupin, Lenda McCartney, Jagger Richards, 434 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 3: Carol King, Jerry Goffin, you know, it goes on and on, 435 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 3: Burt Bacharach and whoever was writing lyrics with him at 436 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 3: the time. But around nineteen ninety this changes and we 437 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 3: see a pretty sharp uptick in the number of songwriters 438 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 3: credited on number one hits. This happens for a few 439 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 3: different reasons. One of the biggest is basically the way 440 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 3: we credit songs has changed. Whereas historically you were only 441 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 3: getting credited if you wrote melody chords lyrics. You know, 442 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 3: Ringo wasn't getting a songwriting credit even if he came 443 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 3: up with a great drum part on I Feel Fine 444 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 3: or whatever the song happened to be. But these days, 445 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 3: if you produce a beat, you're probably gonna get a 446 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 3: songwriting credit, even though historically that doesn't align with like 447 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 3: what we think of as copyrightable intellectual property. But it 448 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 3: seems like over the years, people have realized that you 449 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 3: make money more money if you have a hit song, 450 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 3: if you're collecting royalties, so people dole out so are 451 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 3: more likely to dole out songwriting credits. I think that's 452 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 3: probably the biggest thing that's led to this increase. But 453 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 3: at the same time, I think the way we write 454 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 3: songs now with computers also influences this. I could work 455 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 3: on a song on my computer, send it off to 456 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 3: someone somewhere else. And you see this with hit songs 457 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 3: or like passed around through a bunch of of many 458 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 3: different people. Songwriting credits are added along the way before 459 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 3: it's released, whereas you go back far enough, like you 460 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 3: could really only write who you were sitting down with. 461 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 3: So we do see this huge increase in songwriters on 462 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 3: hit songs. I don't think it's because songwriters have become 463 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 3: less skilled. I think some of these other factors have 464 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 3: led to an increase, but it certainly has happened. 465 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 2: And there are some instances certainly where songwriting credits not 466 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 2: being divided the right way to turn into legal battles, 467 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: but relationships of band members things of that nature. 468 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 3: I mean, the people always if you look at like 469 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 3: any of the recent albums by Beyonce, there are an 470 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 3: absurd number of songwriters and producers. And one thing I've 471 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 3: read is that because she's so popular, if anything resembles 472 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 3: something else, she'll probably get sued, so they just dole 473 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 3: out songwriting credits just to avoid lawsuits, which I could 474 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 3: see also being a thing. I feel like music lawsuits 475 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 3: are much more common these days than they were, you know, 476 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 3: forty or fifty years ago. 477 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 2: All Right, So this next one that we tease is 478 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 2: a I believe it's controversial to this day, but we 479 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,479 Speaker 2: can debate that a bit. The pop charts were rigged 480 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies, which is pretty well documented in 481 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: terms of certainly pale and all of that. But talk 482 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 2: about that. 483 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, So. 484 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 3: The Billboard charts from nineteen ninety one onward, the code 485 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 3: was scanned for a purchase, that data was getting sent 486 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 3: off to Billboard when that happened, overnight, the charts changed 487 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 3: a ton. Suddenly there was more hip hop on the charts, 488 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 3: there was more country on the charts. So it was 489 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 3: clear that the tracking before that was not as accurate, 490 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 3: did not actually line up perfectly with what people were 491 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 3: actually buying. The way it was done before that was 492 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 3: just through surveying record stores, which is a perfectly sound 493 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 3: way to try to do something like this. People at 494 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 3: Billboard would call up a sample of record stores around 495 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 3: the country basically be like, what's selling. You could understand 496 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 3: why something like that could be manipulated on many different sides. 497 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 3: On the record store side, maybe you realize if something's 498 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,959 Speaker 3: higher on the charts, people are more likely to buy it, 499 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 3: so you could you know, you lie to Billboards say oh, 500 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 3: this record by Paul Abdul is selling because you've got 501 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 3: a million copies of it and you need to move 502 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 3: them off the shelves. But at the same time, on 503 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 3: the Billboard side, because it was not this super scientific process, 504 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 3: it would be very easy for people to try to 505 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 3: manipulate people at Billboard to put something higher on the 506 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 3: charts because popularity usually begets more popularity, and in the seventies, 507 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 3: something I show in the book is there there is 508 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 3: some anomalist data for how long songs spend at the 509 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 3: top of the charts right around when this guy, bill 510 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 3: Wardlow was the head of Billboard, and you see this 511 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 3: anomalous behavior and then he leaves and then it sort 512 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 3: of goes back to normal. And people have alleged over 513 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 3: the years that he was he wasn't selling placements, but 514 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 3: he was he could be convinced to shuffle things around 515 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 3: the charts for his own benefit in certain ways. Not 516 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 3: to point the finger just completely at him. I mean, 517 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 3: this is a musical tale as old as time. But 518 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 3: basically before ninety one, nineteen ninety one, it was it 519 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 3: would be easier to manipulate the charts in some way. 520 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 2: Well, and now beyond Billboard, there are other industry publications 521 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 2: that include charts. And in fact, in this very room 522 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 2: he spoke with Paul Rappaport and recorded an episode of 523 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 2: Taking a Walk. Paul's a dear friend who ran promotion 524 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 2: for many, many years for Columbia Records, and he tells 525 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: a lot of stories in his book about some of 526 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 2: the shenanigans that were involved to get number ones. 527 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 6: Yeah, and in fact, to this day, still in the 528 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 6: Nashville community. I believe they have on Mondays number one 529 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 6: celebrations for the artists who reach their first number one. 530 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,959 Speaker 6: So it's still a competitive at least in those charts. 531 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 6: Those charts have nothing to do really with sales, They 532 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 6: have to do with airplay. So I think to this. 533 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: Day the topic of charts still is a bit of 534 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 2: a conundrum based on what's reality and what is fabricated. 535 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean it's this is the music business, right, 536 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 3: you know, people are trying to make money and having 537 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 3: getting your song that sort of publicity to be on 538 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 3: a chart, whether it's real or not, will probably lead 539 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 3: to more people checking it out, more money to be made. 540 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 3: I mean, there's always to your point, there's always ways 541 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 3: people are going to try to manipulate this stuff because 542 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 3: it's how careers are it's how careers are made. I mean, 543 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 3: it's it's it's like an open secret. Especially back in 544 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 3: the seventies and eighties. There's a great book called Hitman 545 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 3: by this guy Frederick Dannin where he talks about a 546 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 3: lot of these shenanigans that went on. It's pretty crazy stuff. 547 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 2: It's an amazing book, and I will confess I know 548 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 2: some of the characters that are in the book actually 549 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 2: who were represented very honestly, whether it be from the 550 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 2: record label side or from the radio side. So that 551 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: is a good one. I'm glad that you brought that 552 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 2: one up because it does tell the story, and it's 553 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:41,719 Speaker 2: a dark story. 554 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: Yeah it is. 555 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 3: It's it's cited. It's cited in my book. So it's 556 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 3: a great resource if you're interested in that stuff. 557 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 2: So then lastly, here on your some of your summary points. 558 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 2: And this one's fascinating to me how TikTok has made 559 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 2: artists more anonymous than ever before or talk about God. 560 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is something that I think is fascinating 561 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 3: if you've ever used TikTok. As you scroll through, I 562 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 3: mean you're seeing hundreds of videos, you know, you could 563 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 3: see over the course of a few minutes. And TikTok 564 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 3: has become really fundamental to breaking hit songs in the 565 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 3: same way that MTV was fundamental to breaking hits in 566 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 3: the eighties. The way it typically happens on TikTok is 567 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 3: there might be some video trend where people do something 568 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 3: specific in a video. There was a song by Sizza 569 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 3: called kill Bill that was a number one hit and 570 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 3: there was a trend where people would look I don't know, 571 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 3: sort of disheveled, and they would move their arm past 572 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 3: their face as if they were I don't know why 573 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 3: I'm picking this is sort of a gruesome trend, as 574 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 3: if they were stabbing someone because the song was called 575 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 3: kill Bill, and when their arm would move past their face, 576 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 3: they would suddenly be like all dolled up, dressed to 577 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 3: the nines. That helped that song become more popular. Sciss 578 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 3: is obviously a big star, but there's tons of stuff 579 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 3: on TikTok where there's a very popular trend that's associated 580 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,239 Speaker 3: with a song, but you associate that sound with the 581 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 3: trend more so than you do with the artist. So 582 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 3: we've seen a bunch of hit songs over the last 583 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 3: five or six years where the artist does not it's 584 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 3: not really a launching point for their career that there 585 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 3: is this very popular trend associated with their song, because 586 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 3: no one is associating that song with them. They're associating 587 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 3: it with this trend, this social trend going around on 588 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 3: the app. So it's like TikTok is a double edged 589 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 3: sword in that way, and that it has certainly launched careers, 590 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 3: but at the same time, there are songs that are 591 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 3: very popular on that app that I don't think the 592 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 3: people who wrote them could sell out a hundred person room. 593 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: And isn't it some of it though to that point 594 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 2: that you know, just the disposable nature of content, to 595 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 2: short lived nature of attention and the disposability of it. 596 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 2: I mean, it does speak to the overall trend line 597 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 2: of popular music right totally. 598 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 3: I mean that's the you don't really go back and 599 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 3: rewatch tiktoks. It's all. It's one and done for the 600 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 3: most part. The other interesting thing there is, like I said, 601 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 3: throughout the decades, various forms of content have been used 602 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 3: to promote songs. MTV is a great example. But when 603 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 3: you watched MTV in the eighties and you saw the 604 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 3: like a Virgin video, you of course associated that song 605 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 3: with Madonna because she's in the video and she has 606 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 3: decided how this video is going to look. Another weird 607 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 3: thing about TikTok and the Internet in general is sometimes 608 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,239 Speaker 3: a song will become popular but has nothing to do 609 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 3: with the artist. A couple of years ago, Doja Cat 610 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 3: had this hit number one, a song called say So, 611 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 3: and it was not the song that they were promoting 612 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 3: from the record as a single, but then some girl 613 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 3: on tiktoks made a dance up to it. The dance 614 00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 3: started going viral and then her team was like, oh, 615 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 3: actually this should be the single. So songs can become 616 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 3: very popular and it's sort of out of the artist's hands. 617 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 3: It's a very strange phenomenon that's unique to not just 618 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 3: TikTok but the Internet in general, because anyone can create content, 619 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 3: anyone can post. 620 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 2: Well, we talk about music history on this podcast. You 621 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 2: have taken us through song history here in a deep way. 622 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 2: Uncharted territory is the name of the book. What numbers 623 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 2: tell us about the biggest hit songs and ourselves. I 624 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 2: love how you blend in sort of the you know, 625 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 2: the psychology of it all based around the stats. So 626 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 2: it's a fascinating look. Congratulations on the book, Chris, and 627 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 2: thanks for being on the Taking a Walk podcast. Chris 628 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 2: Galla Riva. 629 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm an easy guy to 630 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 3: find online, so folks find yea yeah, i am see 631 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,959 Speaker 3: Dalla Riva music on most platforms, but if you search 632 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 3: my name you will find me. I'm too easy to 633 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,240 Speaker 3: find online, I think, and the book's called Uncharted Territory 634 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 3: as you said, so check it out if you get 635 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 3: a chance. 636 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 2: Thanks for being on Taking a Walk, Thanks. 637 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: For having me, Thanks for listening to this episode of 638 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 1: the Taking a Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes 639 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: with your friends and follow us so you never miss 640 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,280 Speaker 1: an episode. Taking a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, 641 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your podcasts.