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Speaker 1: Hello there, Happy Wednesday. It's Chuck Todd another episode of

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Speaker 1: the Chuck Podcast. So, as some of you know, I

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Speaker 1: have a new weekly substack. It's basically a weekly column,

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Speaker 1: and this week I used I use that space to

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Speaker 1: talk about two issues that I actually get a lot

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Speaker 1: of questions about that I don't talk a lot about

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Speaker 1: here because frankly, they're what I call dead rail issues.

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Speaker 1: And what do I mean by a dead rail issue. Well,

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Speaker 1: as you know, we talk about third rail issues and

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Speaker 1: politics a lot. And what do we mean by a

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Speaker 1: third rail Well, it goes back to the whole idea

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Speaker 1: of electrified rail and subway systems. It's an issue that

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Speaker 1: you're not supposed to touch or it will literally electrocute you

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Speaker 1: politically speaking. So for a long time the most as

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Speaker 1: third rail issue with Social Security, you touch it, you

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Speaker 1: die politically. I would argue Medicare has joined that club,

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Speaker 1: and I think after the twenty twenty six midterms we

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Speaker 1: will say Medicaid is also a part of that that

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Speaker 1: soci Security, Medicare and Medicaid are all now third rail issues.

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Speaker 1: But we'll get a final confirmation on Medicaid after the

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty six midterms. They're untouchables. They're basically popular across

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Speaker 1: the poor. They got sixty to seventy percent acceptance rates

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Speaker 1: with the public. They're seen, you know, if you want

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Speaker 1: to call them entitlements, safety nets, but they're seen as

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Speaker 1: things that they're no longer nice to haves. There must

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Speaker 1: haves as far as the public is concerned, and any

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Speaker 1: serious talk about reform usually ends up with somebody losing

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Speaker 1: an election because reform, for many people is code for

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Speaker 1: cutting back, and that is one And look on medicaid.

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Speaker 1: I think the reason why this has become such a

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Speaker 1: popular issues. You know, when it first came about, it

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Speaker 1: was thought of as just welfare for the poor, that

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Speaker 1: this was health care for poor people. Medicaid is a

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Speaker 1: lifeline for a lot of people. Now, at the end

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Speaker 1: of life, you've run out of money, there's medicaid. You're

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Speaker 1: in your middle you know, you're in the middle aged

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Speaker 1: brackets if you will, in your fifties. You got kids

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Speaker 1: in college, you've got parents that are aging. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can't afford to support them all. And so medicaid

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Speaker 1: is an important safety net for a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: I think that's why medicaid itself is going to be

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Speaker 1: considered a third a third rail, But what about the

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Speaker 1: opposite of third rail issues. I'm going to call these issues.

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Speaker 1: These are issues you can ignore, abuse, or exploit, even

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Speaker 1: and suffer no political consequences. It's issues that voters barely

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Speaker 1: notice unless you ask them about it, and they end

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Speaker 1: up eventually shrugging them off. I call these dead rails.

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Speaker 1: You can touch it all you want, you can sleep

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Speaker 1: on that rail, and nothing's going to buzz you. So

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Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about two of them. And there

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Speaker 1: are two issues that actually should be urgent priorities. So

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Speaker 1: there two issues. I get a lot of questions about

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Speaker 1: one from one side of the aisle and one from

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Speaker 1: the other, But I would argue they have bipartisan Blaine

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Speaker 1: written all over them. One is mostly championed by the left,

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Speaker 1: one mostly by the right, and both are really about

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Speaker 1: right and wrong, not left and right. But both are

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Speaker 1: stuck in a permanent cycle of neglect. I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: campaign finance reform and the debt or fiscal responsibility. So

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Speaker 1: let's start with campaign finance reform. When I first started

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Speaker 1: in this business, a big conversation was all about soft money.

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Speaker 1: This was the unlimited donations you could give to political parties.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's trying to figure out how to limit it. As

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Speaker 1: Boyd donors were having too much influence on the two

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Speaker 1: political parties, there were efforts to clean up the system,

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Speaker 1: closed loopholes, cap donations, increase transparency, and yet every single

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Speaker 1: time a law was passed McCain Finegold, the most prominent

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Speaker 1: that was intended to reduce the influence of money in politics,

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Speaker 1: it actually ended up increasing the amount of money and

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Speaker 1: most importantly, pushing that money out of sight. It was

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Speaker 1: no longer transparent when it was inside the parties, So

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Speaker 1: new loopholes popped up, new vehicles for influence. Suddenly money

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Speaker 1: started pouring into places we didn't even think of as

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Speaker 1: political super packs. Five oh one C four's, five twenty sevens,

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Speaker 1: shell organizations, all of it designed to move large sums

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Speaker 1: of money with minimal transparency. Pree, McCain, Finegeld. All of

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Speaker 1: that was transparent. And here's the thing. Both parties do it.

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Speaker 1: Democrats have built massive dark money networks, Republicans have their

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Speaker 1: own versions, and each side says the same thing when

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Speaker 1: you questioned them about it. We don't like the system,

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Speaker 1: but if we don't play the game, we lose or

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Speaker 1: can't go to a campaign with one arm time behind

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Speaker 1: our back. So it's not reform, that's arms race logic.

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Speaker 1: Our campaign finance system today is like late stage baseball

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Speaker 1: before the pitch clock, hyper optimized, hard to follow, and

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Speaker 1: totally alienating the day average fan. It's become less about

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Speaker 1: voters and more about who's got the best finance shop,

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Speaker 1: who's got the best new vehicle to move money before

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Speaker 1: the other side season. Now let's talk about my other

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Speaker 1: debt rail issue. It's the debt. There's this one's even

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Speaker 1: easier to track. You can basically set your watch to

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Speaker 1: when people start pretending to care about the debt. Republicans,

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Speaker 1: for example, only worry about the debt when a Democrat

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Speaker 1: is president. Democrats rediscover defice ha hackery the moment Republicans

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Speaker 1: propose a tax cut. I mean, just look at the

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Speaker 1: last few decades. Clinton raised taxes to bring the deficit down.

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Speaker 1: He was told the markets would reward him, and they did.

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Speaker 1: We had pretty pretty good prosperity, and yet that blueprint

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Speaker 1: has never been followed again. We had balanced budgets for

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Speaker 1: a few cycles, few two year cycles in a row.

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Speaker 1: We didn't, you know, we didn't pay down that we

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Speaker 1: actually even paid down the debt a little bit. By

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Speaker 1: the way, deficit and debt. Deficit is the annual budget

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, when we when we don't meet

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Speaker 1: our budget targets and when we have to borrow on

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Speaker 1: the credit card, that's the deficit. The debt is the

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Speaker 1: accumulation of those annual deficits. You're trying to understand the

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Speaker 1: difference between the two. But the bushyears came after Clinton.

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Speaker 1: We had tax cuts, two wars, and a brand new

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Speaker 1: Medicare Medicare entitlement remember Part D prescription drugs, all of

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Speaker 1: that on a credit card. The debt exploded. Obama comes

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Speaker 1: in during a recession, stimulus spending, had to write bailouts.

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Speaker 1: Republicans cry foul, But where were they? A decade before

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Speaker 1: Trump takes office during an economic expansion and passes another

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Speaker 1: massive tax cut, unpaid for. The debt grows again. No

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Speaker 1: one blinks. Biden inherits pandemic spending also growing the debt

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Speaker 1: adds trillions more and new programs also growing the debt,

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Speaker 1: And every turn, the debt only grows, and politicians only

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Speaker 1: seem to care about it when they're not the ones

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Speaker 1: holding the checkbook. But here's the dirtiest secret in Washington.

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Speaker 1: Most of the money that gets spent in politics is

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Speaker 1: spent to get more money out of government, either via

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Speaker 1: a loophole or a subsidy. So think about that. Nobody

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Speaker 1: donates millions to a super pac because they want government

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Speaker 1: to shrink. They want tax breaks, or they want a subsidy,

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Speaker 1: or they want a contract, or they want to carve out.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's direct spending or indirect giveaways, the goal is

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Speaker 1: the same return on investment. Those donations are not just

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Speaker 1: out of the goodness of their heart. And that's where

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Speaker 1: these two dead rails meet. And maybe these dead rails

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Speaker 1: can produce a little bit of a voter electricity campaign

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Speaker 1: finance corruption fuels bad fiscal policy, big money shapes big bills,

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Speaker 1: and neither party is serious about fixing you the problem.

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Speaker 1: So why doesn't this resonate with voters. Well, there's a reason.

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Speaker 1: It's invisible until it isn't. The debt doesn't hurt until

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Speaker 1: interest rates spike and you can't afford a home. Corruption

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Speaker 1: doesn't sting until you see how a bill got written,

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Speaker 1: and even then the outrage becomes fleeting. So let's be

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Speaker 1: honest the people who do care about these issues, the messengers.

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Speaker 1: They're often written off, treated like cranks, purists, are out

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Speaker 1: of touch do gooders. But what if we brought these

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Speaker 1: two groups together. What if the campaign finance reformers and

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Speaker 1: the deficit hawks stopped working in silos and started working

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Speaker 1: in tandem. Because the connection is clear as day to me.

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Speaker 1: If you want smaller deficits, you've got to get money

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Speaker 1: out of politics. You can't have one without the other.

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Speaker 1: As long as billionaires and corporations are shaping legislation behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes, there's always going to be more spending because

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Speaker 1: influence costs money, and that money only gets more spending.

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Speaker 1: So that's the challenge I want to pose to you,

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Speaker 1: the listeners, the readers, the political obsessives, even my fellow

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Speaker 1: cynics out there. What would it look like to combine

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Speaker 1: these two issues into one political movement? A third way? Perhaps?

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Speaker 1: How do you get voters to care about things that

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Speaker 1: they can't immediately feel or touch right away? Who could

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Speaker 1: be the messenger for something like this, a voice that

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Speaker 1: doesn't get dismissed as a scold or an ideologue. Ross

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Speaker 1: Perot came close back in ninety two, and he got

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Speaker 1: both parties to rethink a few issues. But here's what

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Speaker 1: I do know. Our campaign finance system is broken. It's

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Speaker 1: legalized bribery. I've said that before. It is worse than ever,

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Speaker 1: and the fiscal trajectory is unsustainable. Even now the bond markets,

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Speaker 1: the markets had a lot more we're a lot more

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Speaker 1: openness to our debt to GDP ratio, But they're getting

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Speaker 1: a little nervous now that not only are we growing things,

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Speaker 1: but we are not even with the party that claims

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Speaker 1: to be the fiscally responsible party is even worse fiscally,

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Speaker 1: more fiscally irresponsible than the other party that has the

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Speaker 1: supposed reputation for being big spenders. This is why the

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Speaker 1: bond market traders are panicking. Both problems, though, are being

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Speaker 1: driven quietly and predictably by the same small group of players.

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Speaker 1: They write the bills, they fund the campaigns, they manipulate

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Speaker 1: the marketing, and they don't care if you wear a

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Speaker 1: MAGA hat or a climate pin because they bought both teams.

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Speaker 1: Both sides are captured by their big money special interests.

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Speaker 1: So maybe, just maybe it's starts calling these issues what

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Speaker 1: they are. They're not third rails, they're dead rails. They're

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Speaker 1: issues that go nowhere unless we decide to bring them

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Speaker 1: back to life. So I'd love to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: Shoot me a note at Aschuk at thechucktodcast dot com.

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Speaker 1: Would love to hear your thoughts, your ideas about how

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Speaker 1: we can somehow take these two issues and again. Campaign

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Speaker 1: finance reform is something I hear about from my friends

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Speaker 1: on the left, and focusing and getting the media to

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Speaker 1: focus more on the debt is a conversation I hear

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Speaker 1: on the right. I want you two groups to meet

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Speaker 1: with each other. Don't just expect us of the press

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Speaker 1: to figure this out, although I think it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: easy connection to be made. But if you're truly concerned

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Speaker 1: about this trajectory, I think the two issues go hand

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Speaker 1: in hand. So before I get to my guest, I

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Speaker 1: want to do a little campaign update with a few

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Speaker 1: campaign nuggets from the trail. As you know, this is

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Speaker 1: what I do every day. I'm obsessed about the latest, small,

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Speaker 1: little incremental developments in that front. But my guess, by

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Speaker 1: the way, Debra Khan, she's the showrunner for The Diplomat.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you love to see how politics is

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Speaker 1: in our culture today, is handling it. I think what

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Speaker 1: Debra's done with the Diplomat is as good as anything

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Speaker 1: out there. Right, it's a it's a bit more realistic

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Speaker 1: than the first show political show she worked on, one

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Speaker 1: that you may have heard of, called the West Wing. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: you will enjoy this guy. If you love the Diplomat,

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Speaker 1: if you loved Homeland, if you like West Wing, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna love this conversation with my new good friend now,

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Speaker 1: Debra Khan. I say that because we've got some mutual

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Speaker 1: friends in common, and it is I have to say.

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Speaker 1: She's just a delight. So I hope you enjoy the conversation.

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Speaker 1: But let me do a little few down ballot updates.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about one in particular, a couple

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Speaker 1: of senior US senators that there's some chatter that they

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Speaker 1: may step down and you may see them replaced by

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Speaker 1: even more progressive folks. Jeff Merkley and Oregon. He is

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Speaker 1: expected to make a decision next month. Look, this is

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Speaker 1: a seat that will likely stay democratic. Ironically, he Wasn't

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Speaker 1: you know? When I first st started in politics, Oregon

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Speaker 1: was a swing state regularly had at least one Republican senator,

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Speaker 1: and at times sometimes two and any given. I think

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Speaker 1: there was a time when I first started was Packward

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Speaker 1: and Mark Hatfield both Republican, so this was a swing state.

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Speaker 1: George W. Bush. I ran into somebody over the Memorial

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Speaker 1: Day weekend who said, yeah, I was in charge of

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Speaker 1: keeping Oregon in play in two thousand and four. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't that long ago that we thought Oregon was

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Speaker 1: swingish if you will, but I don't think so in

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Speaker 1: this sort of Trump version of the Republican Party. And

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Speaker 1: then there's chatter about Ed Marky. Now Markie said he's

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Speaker 1: running for reelection, which means he could get primary, but

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Speaker 1: he survived a primary against the Kennedy. So it's hard

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Speaker 1: to imagine if a Kennedy couldn't knock him off. And

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Speaker 1: this was Joe the third if you follow, but Kennedy

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Speaker 1: couldn't knock him off. I'm a little skeptical that an

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Speaker 1: Iyana press Lee or a Jake Austin Klass which has

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Speaker 1: floated out there, could do it as well, but certainly

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Speaker 1: something to keep an eye on. And then one more development.

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Speaker 1: You know, if the Democratic Party doesn't decide what its

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Speaker 1: presidential primary calendar is going to look like, the candidates

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Speaker 1: are going to decide for them. Well, we've now had

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Speaker 1: We now have our second Democratic candidate who's decided to

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Speaker 1: go to an event in Iowa as a way to

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Speaker 1: signal interest in running for president. The first one to

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Speaker 1: do this was a couple of weeks go Pep Boodage

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Speaker 1: did a public town hall in Iowa, and now Ram

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Speaker 1: Emmanuel has agreed to do a fish fry in the

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Speaker 1: fall in Iowa as well. So if the presidential case

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Speaker 1: is this one of those cases, gee, I wonder if

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Speaker 1: this is the right state to use this language with which,

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Speaker 1: if you build it, the party will come. So the

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Speaker 1: candidates themselves are sort of showing up in Iowa, and

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Speaker 1: eventually the Democratic Party may have to just suck it

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Speaker 1: up Grin and Barrett and realize that two of their

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Speaker 1: last three presidents to go from zeros to heroes, Jimmy

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Speaker 1: Carter and Barack Obama, all used Iowa as their launching pad.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's not such a bad place to launch presidential

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Speaker 1: candidates from, especially if you're the party out of power

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Speaker 1: these days. Just a thought for all of those folks

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Speaker 1: in the Democratic Party that wanted to trash Iowa because

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Speaker 1: it wasn't diverse enough, or wasn't this enough or that enough?

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Speaker 1: It's those voters. Remember, there are more Obama to Trump

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Speaker 1: counties in eastern Iowa than in all the other states combined,

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Speaker 1: I believe. Just think about that. So if you cracked

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Speaker 1: the code in Iowa Democrats, you likely will crack the

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Speaker 1: code in the rest of the country. So with that,

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Speaker 1: let me pause, and when we come back, Deborah Cohn

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Speaker 1: and joining me now is the creator of The Diplomat,

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Speaker 1: which we're all excited is still going, can't wait for

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Speaker 1: the next season. It's Deborah con She has been working

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Speaker 1: in the world of television with political dramas for some

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Speaker 1: time now and West Wing Homeland, but The Diplomat is

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Speaker 1: one that she created. And there's fun backstories plural that

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Speaker 1: I've heard about and backstories that you haven't told that

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Speaker 1: I hoped to prod out of you. Deborah Kahn, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Great to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about before we get into the nuts

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Speaker 1: and bolts of making the Diplomat and getting access to

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Speaker 1: the embassy residents itself, which is always I love that story.

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Speaker 1: In the UK, it was really cool to feel as

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Speaker 1: if hey, I've I've landed in a helicopter on the

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Speaker 1: back lawn of that thing, and I'll get into that.

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Speaker 1: But you've done with a lot of people in journalism

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Speaker 1: and sometimes in the political world. All want to do

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Speaker 1: is you broke into Hollywood. You've been writing, you from

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Speaker 1: West Wing, and I'm very curious of your thoughts on

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Speaker 1: mister Sorkin and what you're doing today. How'd you do it?

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Speaker 1: A lot of my listeners, a lot of the hosts

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Speaker 1: of this podcast or all want to know how you

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Speaker 1: did it?

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Speaker 2: Well. I was not a politics person. I had been

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Speaker 2: an intern on Capitol Hill once upon a time, but

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Speaker 2: not for very long. And didn't I think when I

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Speaker 2: first when I first had to interview with Aaron to

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Speaker 2: go work on the West Wing, I went back and

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Speaker 2: watched all the School House Rock, like how a Bill becomes.

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Speaker 1: Make sure you knew the how important was that in

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Speaker 1: the West Wing writers room, because it's funny, you know.

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Speaker 1: I have a hot and cold relationship with West Wing.

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Speaker 1: I love Sorkin, love a lot of the stuff he's done.

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Speaker 1: I as somebody who worked in politics in the nineties

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Speaker 1: and worked in media in the nineties, I hated West

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Speaker 1: wing only because it was not realistic. I'd be like, God,

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Speaker 1: damn it, they keep making things look like it's that easy,

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Speaker 1: or that president will just march up to the hill

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Speaker 1: and here it is, and yet you're telling me that

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Speaker 1: how important was it to be realistic or not? When

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Speaker 1: it came to the West Wing.

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Speaker 2: When I came into the West Wing, which was in

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Speaker 2: the fourth season, they were looking for a lot of

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Speaker 2: people who had real Washington experience.

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Speaker 1: And more than just lace O'Donnell a lot.

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Speaker 2: Well, Lawrence was there at that time. He was also

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Speaker 2: there a little bit earlier, but they were looking for

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Speaker 2: They hired like eight new people, most of who have

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Speaker 2: been consultants or worked on campaigns or you know, worked

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Speaker 2: down the hill for X years. And I had kind

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Speaker 2: of just enough Washington to get myself in the door.

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Speaker 2: And when I saw everybody else who was there, I

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Speaker 2: was like, Oh, I'm going to be fired this afternoon.

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Speaker 1: Could you thought you didn't have enough of the Washington

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Speaker 1: experience to keep up with the writer's room?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely not, absolutely not. I was just flooded with nausea

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Speaker 2: every day for the first team months, and.

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Speaker 1: That's always the best feeling to make you work harder.

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Speaker 2: Fucking hard man. But I also realized, and I think

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Speaker 2: they realized at a certain point, that I didn't have

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Speaker 2: the kind of background that everybody else in the room did.

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Speaker 2: But everybody else in the room had that, and so

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Speaker 2: I didn't need to whereas I was coming in, you know,

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Speaker 2: like Aaron, who I absolutely loved working for and am

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Speaker 2: I have always been a huge, huge fan of his writing.

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Speaker 2: You know, dude's got a musical theater background, and I

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Speaker 2: come from the theater like that. The rhythm and the

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Speaker 2: musicality that I think was such a big part of

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Speaker 2: what he was doing was that was something that I understood,

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Speaker 2: and that was something that I kind of had a

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Speaker 2: biarrhythmic sense of, and so I brought that to the table,

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Speaker 2: which was a different thing.

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Speaker 1: How did you tell me how you would have How

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Speaker 1: did you infuse the style of musical theater into West Wing,

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Speaker 1: which of course didn't have musical interludes.

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Speaker 2: Well, a lot of it is about rhythm. People talk

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Speaker 2: about how most people talked on the West Wing and

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Speaker 2: the pattern and the interplay of characters that very much comes.

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Speaker 1: From There was definitely a felt like you wanted to

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Speaker 1: fit the moment or almost feel lyrical in some ways.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and scenes were written musically, and.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely should West Wing have been Have you have

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Speaker 1: you ever thought about readapting West Wing as.

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Speaker 2: A musical As a musical, It's something to look into.

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Speaker 2: I'm not really sure I'm the person to make it happen,

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Speaker 2: but I mean.

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Speaker 1: We do all these readaptations all the time, right, You're like, boy,

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Speaker 1: that's one that I hadn't thought about, But you go

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Speaker 1: get like, I would love to see lin Man, Miranda

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Speaker 1: and Aaron Sorkin team up and make it a musical, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: in theory, that would be interesting.

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Speaker 2: Without question, there is a huge, you know, DNA relationship

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Speaker 2: between the work of Miranda and Aaron Zorkin.

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Speaker 1: So go back to that writer's room. What did you

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Speaker 1: learn is that was that your first big writer's room.

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Speaker 2: That was my first writer's room where I was not

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Speaker 2: an assistant. I had been in one writer's room before that,

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Speaker 2: and my job was to take notes. So I was

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Speaker 2: what was called a baby writer, and I was there

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Speaker 2: to be seen and not heard and do research.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, it's interesting. I have a friend of

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Speaker 1: mine who have been working on projects with off and

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Speaker 1: on for a while that we you know, not projects

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Speaker 1: that haven't succeeded yet, right, They're just the ones that

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Speaker 1: haven't been bought yet. And he talks about the challenge

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Speaker 1: like that in the post COVID era and with Zoom,

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Speaker 1: how it's really it's he misses the old everybody in

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Speaker 1: the same room writer's room. That there's too many Zoom

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Speaker 1: writers rooms these days. You feel that.

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Speaker 2: Way on this show. I have what I guess would

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Speaker 2: be called a hybrid room, which is I have two

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Speaker 2: thirds of the staff here in New York. We actually

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Speaker 2: meet in the room that I'm sitting in, and we

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Speaker 2: sit around old school on a bunch of couches and

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Speaker 2: talk about what the stories should be. And we do

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Speaker 2: have two people on Zoom because they live in LA

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Speaker 2: and you know there are some writers rooms where you're

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Speaker 2: in there all day. We don't do that. We are

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Speaker 2: together for about two or three hours a day and

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Speaker 2: we have a conversation. There's something that's nice about, first

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Speaker 2: of all, when there's only two people on Zoom. It's

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Speaker 2: you don't feel like you're sort of married to the screen.

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Speaker 2: You're having a conversation.

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Speaker 1: Probably are actually have a hard time keeping the two

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Speaker 1: people on Zoom and forgetting that they're there. I imagine

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Speaker 1: sometimes you know.

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Speaker 2: Like everybody has like it's their dogs to stay engaged

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Speaker 2: and it's the shop conversation, and they do. The people

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Speaker 2: who have continued to do that over the time are

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Speaker 2: the ones who are good at finding what the role

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Speaker 2: can be from the distance. So, but yeah, I mean

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Speaker 2: in person is it's definitely a major major improvement. We

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Speaker 2: started the show in the very very beginning, we were

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Speaker 2: exclusively online and it was absolutely miserable.

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Speaker 1: That was pre that was right at COVID, the start

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Speaker 1: of COVID, right when you guys first started. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: tell me about how long you've been working on the Diplomat.

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Speaker 1: Is this one of those passion projects you've had, You've

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Speaker 1: been noodling with it for a decade or is this

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Speaker 1: something that came to you, you know, during the start.

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Speaker 2: Of COVID, So I guess twenty years? Is that for so?

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Speaker 1: Well, this is a passion project in many ways, you've

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Speaker 1: been You've had this in the back of your head

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Speaker 1: for a while.

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Speaker 2: Well, Weston was this incredible gift of being able to

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Speaker 2: write a great character drama that was about things that mattered.

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Speaker 2: And I think that they know the show managed to

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Speaker 2: give people a window into domestic politics was slightly rose

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Speaker 2: covered colored window, but it was in educating.

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Speaker 1: It had some educating. It had some educating that I

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Speaker 1: still think as much as I get frustrated when I

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Speaker 1: hear people say why can't it be like on the

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Speaker 1: West Wing, it's like, well, yeah, well, why can't a

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Speaker 1: lot of things be the way we could imagine them? Right?

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Speaker 1: It's because it's called life, right, it's the real world.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean a lot of people didn't learn

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Speaker 1: things about the system by watching West Wing, which is

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Speaker 1: a net positive.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I wanted to do on a foreign policy

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Speaker 2: level what we had done on a domestic policy level.

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Speaker 2: And I also wanted to do I wanted to sort

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Speaker 2: of take us out of foreign policy conversations that consisted

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Speaker 2: of US and the enemy, US the bad guy, or

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Speaker 2: US and the Brits or Chinese, like as though millions

430
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 2: of people are a single hive mind and they just aren't.

431
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: And and I wanted to maybe give people a clearer

432
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 2: sense of how decisions are made that can you know,

433
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 2: put one in a war footing or how those how

434
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 2: those things kind of get unpacked in the way that

435
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 2: we saw them on the Western getting unpacked in the

436
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: offices where people are trying to figure out how to

437
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: articulate something and what's the actual goal and what are

438
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 2: the differences of opinion in the backstage of that world.

439
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: Look, I have been happy to see this become more

440
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: nuanced in general when it comes to sort of dramas

441
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 1: like The Sympathizer, which was about right and it was like,

442
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: you know, the perspective of the North Vietnamese, Right, we

443
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 1: didn't fully you know, you don't get and yes they

444
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: used some satire to do it, but it was like

445
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: just remembering that, hey, we're all human beings and we

446
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: all react to things sometimes the same way, even if

447
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: our brains are reoriented in the opposite right, Like it's

448
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: just and in introducing that nuance and where sometimes you

449
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: don't know who the heroes are, right, We're not always

450
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: the hero, you know. And before we get to Diplomat,

451
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: how important was your time on homeland in order to

452
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: sort of prepare prepare to succeed with the Diplomat.

453
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: Well, as soon as I finished the West Wing, I

454
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: tried to do some sort of pilot that was about

455
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 2: foreign aid workers or foreign correspondence, or I actually pitched

456
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 2: a show that was based in the in an embassy

457
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 2: and attitude was not going to work. There had just

458
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 2: been one that was set in the embassy in London

459
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 2: and disappeared after three episodes. It's not very good. So

460
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 2: it was always something that was in my mind. And

461
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 2: then when I got the job on Homeland, I was

462
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 2: so excited that, like that was a way to do

463
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: it right. That was a conversation about foreign policy, whether

464
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 2: or not it was based in the war and terror

465
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 2: and based you know, kind of around the conflicts that

466
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 2: came out of out of those two wars. It was

467
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 2: a foreign policy conversation and I loved writing that show,

468
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 2: but it was a very dark show. It was a

469
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 2: very dark show, and coming out of that, I really

470
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 2: wanted to try to figure out if there was a

471
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 2: way to sort of have a a less wrenching conversation,

472
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 2: only because you know, it can be hard to watch,

473
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: Like there's torture in that show. There's you know, people

474
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 2: rightly losing their minds over the questions that they're dealing with,

475
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: which is not dishonest, but it is. It's a hard

476
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: place to visit.

477
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny you put it that way.

478
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: That was a little more.

479
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's funny you put it that way in Homeland,

480
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: because as much as I miss it, it was done,

481
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: it had run its course. Because you're right, I don't

482
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: know if I wanted to see clar Danes suffer more. Yeah, right,

483
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: I don't know if I wanted to see the mental

484
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: health torture that was happening to everybody in that show.

485
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: You're like, no more, you know, And in the real world,

486
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: these folks do leave after a term or a term

487
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: and a half, right, and it's like, you know, they

488
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: just can't they just can't take it in that sense.

489
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 1: So you've been so the diplomat in some ways it

490
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: shaped a lot of your experiences are shaped here, and

491
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: clearly you've had this idea of trying to pull back

492
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: the curtain a little bit on international what it is,

493
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: I diplomacy is just a fancy name for international politics, right,

494
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: Like you know, That's one of the things I learned

495
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: being a traveling with Obama for six years as a

496
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: as a White House correspondent that I didn't fully appreciate.

497
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: You sort of know intellectually, but you don't know until

498
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: you're there. Is how most international relations are simply no

499
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: different than a president's relations with the governor of a state.

500
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: Meaning everybody's got their own politics they got to worry about,

501
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: and they bring it to these conversations. And so it's

502
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: when you think, when you put yourself in the shoes

503
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 1: of their domestic politics, you suddenly can understand a point

504
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: of view of another country a lot easier. So let's

505
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: talk about the diplomat. When did you get greenlt.

506
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: I guess in twenty twenty, I think.

507
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: Before or after the pandemic.

508
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: The first I was hired by Netflix to write a

509
00:28:54,760 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: pilot and I got this idea to trying to interview

510
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: a woman that had been an expert consultant on homeland,

511
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: a woman named Beth Jones who was a diplomat for

512
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: decades and is amazing. She keeps trying to retire and

513
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 2: pull her back in and I decided I wanted to

514
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 2: interview her and set up a time we were going

515
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: to go meet and have lunch in Washington, DC at

516
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: the restaurant called the Diplomat and.

517
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: Still a fairly hot restaurant by the way. It's you know,

518
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: like anything, you know, the more popular something gets that

519
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: you know it's at its peak. And the question is

520
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: it only can go in one direction, but it's still

521
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: a hot restaurant.

522
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 2: It's well good. Yeah, and then we had to cancel

523
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: it because there was like this weird flu going around.

524
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: So that was so I guess it must have been

525
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:52,959
Speaker 2: March of twenty nine.

526
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: So in some ways I hate, you know, the shutdown.

527
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: I mean, what better time to focus on riding a

528
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: pilot than having nothing else to do but be shut

529
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: in and focused on that.

530
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was also a good time to talk

531
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: to I was like, this is going to be a disaster.

532
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: I can't go to Washington and sit in a room

533
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 2: with people. And that was true on a certain level,

534
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: but there was also the level of, like, you know,

535
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 2: you could get Tony B. Lincoln on the phone.

536
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: Everybody was bored, right, everybody could, Hey, I'm available, I

537
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: can't go anywhere. Let's do zoom right, Yeah, here we go.

538
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 2: I actually ended up talking to I think a lot

539
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: more people than I would have under normal circumstances, just

540
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: because everybody was willing to get on the telephone.

541
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: So what do you have a couple of diplomats in

542
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: your head that were the that were the the peoples

543
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: whose sort of biography let me put I don't before trigger,

544
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: before suggesting a name, I wanted to see if you

545
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: modeled I have a couple of ideas in my head,

546
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: but I'm just curious if you modeled some of the characters.

547
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: And I'm off of actual people.

548
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's a bunch of people, and and

549
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 2: it's definitely the ones that you think. Beth Jones was

550
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: a huge piece of it. Sam Powers was obviously a

551
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: piece of it. Susan Rice is in there, Wendy Sherman

552
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: is in there, Hillary Clinton is in there. There's there's

553
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: a there's a lot of people. There's a lot of people.

554
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: Richard Holbrook feels like the husband Richard Holbrook. I feel

555
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: he feels like the husband who, by the way, is

556
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: my He's he's I feel like you have more fun

557
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: with his character than anybody else's character.

558
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: He's a lot of fun. He's a lot of fun

559
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: and he's as I'm sure you know, George Packer wrote

560
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 2: this book called Arman about Richard Holbrook and it was

561
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: a huge, hugely influential text one.

562
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: Of our It makes me feel better. I'm like, that's

563
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: got to be Richard Holbrook because his attitude at times

564
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: that he's smarter than the president, that he actually knows

565
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: these things better. And you know, look, Richard Holbrook was

566
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: one of these people that you wanted to have dinner

567
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: with because he had amazing stories. Yeah, and you created

568
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: a character that he weirdly is the magnet, Like you're

569
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: just like, I want to hear more of his more stories,

570
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: you know, even though he's probably not the right person

571
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: for the job.

572
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: In that moment, Ulbrook was so fantastically polarizing, and people

573
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: loved him or hated him, and the people who hated

574
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: him the most used to be people who loved him

575
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: the most. So that tension of you can't help but

576
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: fall in love with this guy right up until the

577
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 2: point where you want to kill him was a fantastic

578
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: basis for a character.

579
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: Okay, so that makes me feel better that I'm not

580
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: like wanting something to be true and it's like it

581
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: feels like and it only adds to me the authenticity

582
00:32:58,320 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: of what you did.

583
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: You know, there's an actor called Hal Wholebrook. Yes, Richard Holbrook,

584
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: Hal Wholebrook. How that's that's why he's.

585
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: Oh, that's why you call him out. I love it.

586
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that I didn't put that puzzle, easy piece

587
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: of the puzzle together, but fantastic, even better for the homage. Although,

588
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: as you know, the more we talk, the whole Brook

589
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: family may want a piece of the action.

590
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 2: I you know, I would love to talk with them.

591
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: I am, I am, I am. I'm also I'm fan

592
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 2: of the documentary that his son made.

593
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think there's there's there probably are even

594
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: more stories that are worth in using him as an inspiration.

595
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: So how hard or easy was it to get the

596
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: embassy residence as a set? So let me Winfield When

597
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: was it Winfield Place? We call it? What do we

598
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: call it? What's the official name?

599
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: So the ambassador's residence is called Winfield House, Winfield House.

600
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: There's an embassy. The first time, the first time we

601
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: looked at any of those buildings, we went to the

602
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 2: embassy and they were very skeptical of you know, a

603
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: television show was going to come in and they felt

604
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: sure that we were going to do some sort of

605
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: horrific caricature of Martini toading diplomats. And then we said

606
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: we had been sent by Beth Jones, and across the

607
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 2: board she gave me my first job, or she don't anything,

608
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: I know where I've modeled my career on her. So

609
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: as soon as they knew that we were kind of

610
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 2: friends of Beth, we were welcomed with open arms. At

611
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: the embassy itself. They allowed us very kindly to film

612
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 2: there and that had not really been done before. And

613
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 2: we were also welcomed as guests at Winfield House, at

614
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: the residence. They offered to allow us to film there

615
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 2: as well on the inside of the house, and we

616
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 2: explained that if we filmed the inside of the house,

617
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 2: we would need to be there for about seven months,

618
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: at which point the invitation was rescinded. So we basically

619
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 2: one day per season we film at the real Winfield

620
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: House and we usually end up using the gate, just

621
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: the front gate of the house, and then there's a big,

622
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: gorgeous house about a half an hour north of the

623
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: center of London called Rudham Park, which is what we

624
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 2: use for our Winfield for the.

625
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 1: Winfield Was that an actual Was that the Winfield House

626
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: that the helicopter landed in or not? Yeah? Okay, I

627
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: was like I was telling my wife, I'm like that

628
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: it's one of the cool I just happened. Like people

629
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: don't need to know the intricate details, but I happened

630
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: to be on presspool that day I needed to like

631
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: I was able to be, which really meant was I

632
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: was on on the latest possible flight with Air Force

633
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: one to get to London, and because we had to

634
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: like travel with him, I had to go on the

635
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: helicopter and it was I'm so glad I did. It's

636
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 1: like a cool experience and I'm like to be able

637
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 1: to like, no, I've done that exact landing there, except

638
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: we were on a on a military plane so we

639
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 1: were strapped to the sides and then this, you know,

640
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: wasn't a comfortable helicopter and it was not the best

641
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: ride there. When it comes to your story arc, and

642
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to assume that folks listening to this have

643
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: seen the first two seasons, and I'm not asking you

644
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: for spoilers, but I'm curious, have you changed your narrative

645
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: arc or did you know where this story was going

646
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty?

647
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's changed all along the way. Oh wow,

648
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 2: Okay for me, that's the joy of writing television.

649
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: You know, did you think you were doing one season

650
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: at first? Did you just write it assuming one season?

651
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: Did you assume only one season, and you wanted to

652
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: have a story that's sort of, you know, just in

653
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: case you only got one season and that was going

654
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: to have a beginning of middle in an end.

655
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 2: Well, I'm I'm Jewish, I prepare for failure. Yes, So

656
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 2: I assumed that it would be one season and done.

657
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: And yeah, season one definitely ended where you could go

658
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: either direction you saw and it was like, Okay, let's

659
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: see if they get a set, let's see if they

660
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: get renewed. I think you got renewed, like within the

661
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: first two weeks of the drop. If I'm not mistaken,

662
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: you probably know best, yes, right around that time. But

663
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: then when you ended season two, it was clear it

664
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 1: was a cliffhanger, right. It was clear there was definitely

665
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: another season coming. So that's why I was curious if, like,

666
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: how you know how much of this story arc did

667
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: you have sort of storyboarded versus changing as you went.

668
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 2: Well, let me just say, for those in your audience

669
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: who are writing pieces like this, it's not an accident

670
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 2: that there was like, oh my god, who's going to

671
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 2: survive the car bombing at the end of and that

672
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: there was an oh my god at the end of

673
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 2: season two I mean, you do want to create a

674
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 2: situation where also Netflix wants to know no, it's gonna happen,

675
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 2: so and that sometimes, you know, definitely helps. But the

676
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: world has not stopped turning even for a second, to

677
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 2: let us tell any story that we thought we would

678
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: have told a couple of years ago. You and I

679
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 2: have a friend in common who Dopna Lindser, who was

680
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 2: helpful all along through the creation of this series and

681
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 2: still now, and I talked to her a lot about

682
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: the story that we were going to tell in the

683
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: very first season. And while we were still writing that story,

684
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 2: we were about five scripts in and we had spoken

685
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 2: to a woman named Heather Conley, who's a Russia expert.

686
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 2: She's a really fantastic, brilliant woman, and the way that

687
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 2: she talked about dealing with RUSSI was so fascinating because

688
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 2: we've gone through this period of time of like you know,

689
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 2: like twenty years of passive aggressive Russia, where most of

690
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: their foreign policy was conducted through covert operations that they

691
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 2: pretended weren't happening. So I was so taken with the

692
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 2: idea of how do you fight an enemy who pretends

693
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: they're not fighting with you? And so I wrote this

694
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: like five episodes of how do you deal with passive

695
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 2: aggressive Russia? And Daphne called me on the phone one

696
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 2: day and said, I have bad news for both you

697
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 2: and millions of innocent civilians. Vladimir Putin is about to

698
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 2: invade Ukraine.

699
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: I thought, no, more passive aggressive.

700
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, uh, we throw out a whole lot of story.

701
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: Wow, So that was going to be the heart of

702
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: season two.

703
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: That was going to be season one.

704
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: Oh, season one?

705
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 2: Oh, that was going to be season one.

706
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, more about fighting the right?

707
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 2: Interesting, Yeah, all of this all about you know, Russia

708
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 2: had done something and was pretending they didn't, and so

709
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 2: how would we respond?

710
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: So then you pivot to more of a domestic Look.

711
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: What I thought was brilliant with is how you turned

712
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: the British Prime Minister into Trump. And it was sort

713
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: of because it felt accessible. You were like, I want

714
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: to have a Trump like character without making it divisive

715
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: in American politics. Like if I were to say that

716
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: was if I were if I were on Netflix Exact

717
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 1: or something, I'd be like, oh, that's yes, that's a

718
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 1: lot easier to sell than feeling as if you're quote

719
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: unquote taking sides on the current domestic political debate. I

720
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 1: just thought it was a brilliant choice and I'm sorry

721
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 1: that I looked up his name, Mary Kaneer.

722
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 2: He's terrific, just amazing, And you know, the idea was

723
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: to give him a little bit of Trump and a

724
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 2: little bit of Boris Johnson and sure, and to try

725
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 2: and figure out what you do when there is a

726
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 2: chaotic figure as a head of state, like, you know,

727
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 2: how do you how does everybody around that individual manage?

728
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: So that that was part of the part of the

729
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: brief But Rory Kanear is so good that he plays

730
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 2: these scenes where the guy is chaotic and impulsive, but

731
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 2: then always puts in a little bit of like really

732
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: smart and abso relatable, so you can't dismiss the guy

733
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: at all. No, a much more interesting character.

734
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: I think you have you have captured. You've done a

735
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: better job of capturing all sides of Trump with that

736
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: character than anybody else that has tried. You know, I

737
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: do think it's the great childe.

738
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 2: We like get that in writing somewhere.

739
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: Absolutely what we've just put it a little.

740
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 2: Hello, maybe uh we'll.

741
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: Make you a pillow. I think it's I find the

742
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: challenge of trying to write fiction, relatable fiction about the

743
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: current world we're living in, you know, because you want

744
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: to do something slightly more absurd in order to make

745
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 1: a point, and yet every time you think you've done

746
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: something absurd, the real world catches up.

747
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 2: That's our I think is off the table for this decade.

748
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: Fascinating, Okay, just I.

749
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 2: Don't there's no way to go farther because we I

750
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 2: at least don't have the imagination to go farther than

751
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: what we're actually.

752
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: Says that in covering Trump that one of our problems

753
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: in the news media is our own failure imagination, meaning

754
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: like we're never like, you know, you think, well, he

755
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't do that, or the public wouldn't do that. Well, yeah,

756
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: that's the thing that we keep. So you're right, it's

757
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: like beyond any imagination so far that we've had.

758
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: So I guess what I look at in terms of

759
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 2: the kind of stories that we're telling is I'm less

760
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 2: interested in the behavior of the head of state and

761
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 2: a kind of a chaotic leader than I am in

762
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,399
Speaker 2: what it like. You know, hundreds of thousands of other

763
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 2: people work in the government right ours and everybody else's,

764
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: and there may not be as much power concentrated in

765
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 2: any single set of hands, but other people are doing

766
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 2: the work a lot of the time, and for me

767
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: to focus my attention on them, first of all, I

768
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: find it very comforting. It's a good reminder for my

769
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: own mental health to think about, Like there's just hundreds

770
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 2: of thousands of people who decided to go work for

771
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 2: the country, and they could have made a lot more

772
00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 2: money doing really anything else, and they've committed themselves to

773
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 2: making the world better for a whole lot of people

774
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 2: that they don't know. And what I think Aaron really

775
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: brilliantly did and the Weston was sort of give you

776
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 2: an idea of like what those people did during the day,

777
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 2: if it was realistic or not realistic, at least you

778
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 2: had a notion of, like even what the job titles

779
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 2: were and some of the things like what does a

780
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 2: meeting look like? And where does it happen? For me?

781
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: Just being able to envision what somebody's life is like

782
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 2: on the job gives you a little bit more of

783
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: a sense of like, I don't know, maybe I could

784
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 2: do that for a living, Like it just sort of

785
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 2: demystifies it.

786
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: No, you're right about sort of I find the reason.

787
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: I don't get as alarmist about the You know, I

788
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: worry about a lot of things that have weakened in

789
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: our democracy. And there's no doubt in my business in

790
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: the media, we've got challenges and all this stuff. But

791
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: the but the American democracy is so complicated and so

792
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 1: embedded in so many different places that one person can

793
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: create a lot of havoc and chaos. Yeah, but there's

794
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: a lot of other people trying to prevent chaos, right,

795
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: and so there is a balance out there. And it

796
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: does seem like you're trying to give voice to the

797
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: to the average foreign service worker who now since you

798
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: wrote season two to season three has been laid off.

799
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: So how much how much sure you would? You know,

800
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: I know you're in theory, done writing season three and

801
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: now you're shooting it. But I you know, there's a

802
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: lot that has happened to the Diplomatic Corps over the

803
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: last six months. Is are we going to see hints

804
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:39,479
Speaker 1: of it in season three?

805
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 2: Season three is already in the can so no.

806
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 1: Fair enough? Fair enough?

807
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, that that was written.

808
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: Hippy too, Dick Wolf ripped from the headlines like that.

809
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: It's a little too It's not that fast of a turnaround.

810
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 2: I mean, I got to take my hot off to him.

811
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 2: It's very difficult to be ripped from the headlines when

812
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 2: you've got to figure out eighteen months to two years

813
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: ahead what's going to be in the headlines. You just can't.

814
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: You have to try. The way that I try and

815
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 2: think of it is like, what's the foreign policy headspace

816
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 2: going to be? Like what are we all going to be?

817
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 2: Like what kind of conflict are we going to be

818
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 2: thinking about? Not kind of what the specifics.

819
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: Well, look, you're located in a great region right now.

820
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 1: Europe's trying to figure out what the hell is America

821
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: up to? Right Are we partners or not? So as

822
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: much as like there's a part of me that wonders

823
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: if you've done enough of the China of Asia. Obviously

824
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: you're in London, so it's just geographically difficult. But considering

825
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: the most unstable partner we have in the world right

826
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: now all reside in Europe. All of our partners in

827
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,399
Speaker 1: Europe are not sure what to make of us right now.

828
00:46:53,360 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, there's something about having our primary interlocutors

829
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 2: in the show be the Brits. It takes away kind

830
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 2: of certain perceptions that we have about individual conflicts. We

831
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 2: feel like they're sort of like us, they're our cousins

832
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: or whatever.

833
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: By the way, they're having all these same things breaks.

834
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: It sort of foreshadowed Trump. I'm obsessed right now. The

835
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: Tories got clobbert. There may not even be a major

836
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: party anymore in the UK, right we may have a.

837
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,280
Speaker 2: New Can you imagine not even knowing what to call

838
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 2: the Conservative party in your country?

839
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 1: It's astonishing, But you know, I have this thesis that

840
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: it's possible this could happen here. You know, literally, the

841
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 1: UK has foreshadowed a lot of things. Yeah, for us

842
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: of late. And you know, there was a time where

843
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: I used to believe American politics was isolated from global trends,

844
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: or perhaps I was arrogant enough to believe that much

845
00:47:55,320 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: in American democratic exceptionalism. But it's pretty clear global trends,

846
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 1: the American trends, and the global trends are one of

847
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 1: the same.

848
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, they really are. But we're just sort of giving everything,

849
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: We supersize everything, We do it bigger, and then we

850
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,919
Speaker 2: encourage it on a mass scale around the world, which

851
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 2: has a bit of.

852
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: What is the downside for you in being news adjacent. Right,

853
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: you're not on the news, but your news adjacent. And

854
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: you know, I guess the risk is even in eighteen months,

855
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: you can feel out of date if whatever you're writing

856
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: about is just in the wrong moment for whatever reason.

857
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, it's it's a risk all the time, and

858
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 2: I never quite know if we've hit it or not

859
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 2: hit it, and you don't know until it airs. So

860
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 2: the goal is to give ourselves a story that doesn't

861
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 2: exist in the world right now, but has some of

862
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 2: the similar kind of recipe ingredients and just try to

863
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 2: look at like the individual problems are hard to predict,

864
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 2: but the kind of decision making stays the same. So

865
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 2: we're really just taking apart. You know, what does it

866
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 2: mean to make a single foreign policy decision? What does

867
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 2: it mean to make a single agreement, be it about

868
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 2: a border or a line of text with another country?

869
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 2: What are the elements that come into play when you're

870
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 2: trying to communicate in a long term relationship like an

871
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,879
Speaker 2: alliance or which are the same.

872
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: One thing you do so well, I think, and certainly

873
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 1: the women in my life appreciated is is you write

874
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: about strong women, but you make it a little messy

875
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: so that it is not a little messy. It's not

876
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: just automatic superhero's not. Frankly, it's like writing about messy men. Right,

877
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 1: We've been writting about messy men in power for one

878
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 1: hundred years since we've started fiction. And you're like, you know,

879
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: true equality isn't just women in power. It's hey, women

880
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: have messy relationships too.

881
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. My goal is always not like not in

882
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 2: Pollyanna way, but like nobody's wrong in an argument. I

883
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 2: feel like if somebody is clearly wrong in a debate

884
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: that we're having about policy or about a personal interaction,

885
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 2: then we've failed. Like that's just it's it's too easy,

886
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 2: it's too pat and so I want everybody to have

887
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: an argument that I can get behind, and a nice

888
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 2: sort of backstop is always whoever's right is also going

889
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 2: to be you know, like managed to bungle their own rightness,

890
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: which I find.

891
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: You could be right in theory, but right, Look, the

892
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: American people like some of Trump's goals, they can't stand

893
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: his execution. I mean that's what Sometimes somebody can be

894
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: right about a problem, but they're wrong about how to

895
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: execute the solution.

896
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, very very wrong.

897
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: Shonda Rhimes versus Aaron Sorkin. You've worked for both of them,

898
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: what's it like?

899
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 2: I learned a ton from both of them, and they're

900
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 2: they're similar in a bunch of ways. They both before

901
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: working with the two of them, I would get really

902
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 2: attached to a story, and I would think about a

903
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 2: story and believe that there was a way to tell

904
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 2: the story and I had figured it out and that

905
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:54,760
Speaker 2: was that. With both of them, they just turned through

906
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 2: so much stories so quickly, either because they're able to

907
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 2: kind of tell it rapidly and move on or who knows, but.

908
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: They just don't get attached, they don't get caught up,

909
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: and they'll get stuck in it. It sounds like.

910
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 2: They'll mow down a bunch of stuff. And if you

911
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,479
Speaker 2: don't have six more ideas, then you're out of the game.

912
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:21,839
Speaker 2: You can't come in the room with an idea that

913
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:23,760
Speaker 2: you believe in. You have to come into.

914
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: And if it doesn't work better on you're like.

915
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 2: Okay, let me give you another one. Here's another way

916
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 2: to tell the story. And that impulse story, like, you know,

917
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 2: I'm the boss now, I should be able to make

918
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: sure a story stays in place. It's it doesn't you

919
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:47,240
Speaker 2: lose your location. You lose, you know, an actor turns

920
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 2: out to be like Rory Kaneer, Like he's too relatable.

921
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 2: So now how do you tell the story with a

922
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 2: guy who you can't.

923
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: Did you add scenes with him because he was so

924
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: good at the character?

925
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, he was going to be a much, much

926
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 2: smaller presence in the show. He's such a pleasure to

927
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 2: work with.

928
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: It.

929
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure just to watch him film. Every take

930
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 2: is completely different. You feel like you're at the theater,

931
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of times, like we've already got

932
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 2: the scene and we're like, no, let's have him do

933
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 2: it one more time, just to see just because.

934
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 1: You're enjoying Itah, maybe he'll have another interpretation we'll like better.

935
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's the beauty of TV. Like you, you know,

936
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 2: you find people who you love to work with, and

937
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 2: you write story for them, and you bend the story

938
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 2: toward what their superpowers are.

939
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 1: Well, let me get you out of here on this.

940
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: Who are some either nonfiction people, people in the real

941
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 1: world or jobs in the real world that you'd like

942
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: to center a story around but haven't figured out haven't

943
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: figured it out yet? What's like on your what's on

944
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 1: your list there of Like, boy, I'd love to figure

945
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: out how to tell that story, but I haven't found

946
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 1: a vehicle yet.

947
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 2: This is going to sound like an asks the answer,

948
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 2: but it's true and you actually can talk to my

949
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 2: friend about Like the only other story I've tried and

950
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 2: not yet succeeded to write is about a newspaper. So

951
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 2: I have a real love for journalism and journalists, and

952
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 2: that it was always like is it going to be

953
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 2: about people working in foreign aid or foreign relations or

954
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 2: is it going to be about foreign correspondence?

955
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: So you know, it's interesting. You know, look, I've consumed

956
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: every bit of fiction that's been made about the press. Yeah, right,

957
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: and whether the paper to me is still to this day,

958
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 1: nothing captures the interplay of people in a newsroom like

959
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 1: the paper I still to this day, Like I mean

960
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 1: I had the exact argument over a chair. Okay, early

961
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: on we were in a small, crappy and it was

962
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: only one good chair, and it would be this fight

963
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: and people would take masking tape to put their names

964
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: on the chair, and I just remember, yes, the chair,

965
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: like that is that is that epitomizes newsroom? Yes, like

966
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: you know, like the small and petty it's such a

967
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 1: drag It is so everybody is so exhausted all the

968
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: time that you do end up on a knockdown, drag

969
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: out fight over a pen or a chair. Yeah, but

970
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: I almost wonder if we've lionized our industry too much,

971
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 1: and then in so doing, the real journalists have let

972
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: the public down. Not because they've let the public down,

973
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 1: but because we fictionalize these heroic journalists and they're just

974
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: every day Americans, every day humans. They make mistakes, and

975
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: they have bosses and et cetera, et cetera.

976
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, so what you're saying is there has

977
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 2: yet to be a good three dimensional portrayal of those characters.

978
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: You know what there has was? You're right, You're right.

979
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 1: I just don't know what what does the modern newsroom

980
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: even look like? Like I'm trying to build rebuild local

981
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: newsrooms and and you know this whole influencer culture, right

982
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: which is clearly going to be sort of We went

983
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: from journalists where you were trained in the in how

984
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: to be a journalist, and then once you were trained

985
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 1: in how to be a journalist, you were given a beat.

986
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 1: Then we evolved into you're an expert at a beat,

987
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: we'll train you how to be a journalist. And now

988
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,359
Speaker 1: we're sort of taking both of those ideas, and it's

989
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 1: the experts are saying, well, I'm not going to join

990
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: you to be a journalist. I'll just be my own influencer.

991
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: Sometimes it'll be journalism, sometimes it'll be commentary, sometimes it'll

992
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 1: be you know, something in between. So I kind of

993
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: think I'm with you there, but I don't know. I'm

994
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what would what does a modern

995
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 1: version of this even look like today?

996
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,280
Speaker 2: You know, well, when you figure it out in life,

997
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 2: I will then write serious about it, because.

998
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 1: Sorkin did the Newsroom and I hated it because for

999
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 1: a few things. One is, first of all, it's easy

1000
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 1: to get a story right when you have a year,

1001
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 1: okay to write about it. But that's that's neither here

1002
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: nor there. But I don't think it portrayed it correctly

1003
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: like I think it did not. I think it absolutely.

1004
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: It certainly wasn't my experience, and I'd like to think

1005
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,319
Speaker 1: I had a pretty fairly normal experience, not you know,

1006
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 1: and certainly had And it felt like an attempt to create,

1007
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: you know, maybe what was in Keith Oberman's brain, But

1008
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: what was in Keith Oberman's brain was an outlier. It

1009
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 1: wasn't real like it wasn't what wasn't the experience of

1010
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 1: everybody else.

1011
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 2: So there's still room there. There's a room at that stable.

1012
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I appreciate it was really thank you

1013
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 1: for the Diplomat. I mean we uh, I think we junkies,

1014
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 1: we TV and political junkies love a good show that captures.

1015
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 2: We appreciate your support. We really do.

1016
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: Well. I hope you enjoyed that conversation about The Diplomat.

1017
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: And by the way, since our conversation and she all

1018
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:02,440
Speaker 1: but teased it, they've already said there's going to be

1019
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 1: a season four of The Diplomat, So we've got two

1020
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: more seasons to look forward to. Season three is coming

1021
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 1: out this calendar year, which means we're gonna get a

1022
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 1: season four. Maybe we'll get it before the twenty twenty

1023
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: six midterms. Deebor, I'm going to hold you to that

1024
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: schedule that I just manufactured out of thin air for you.

1025
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: Before we go, let me do a little bit of

1026
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: ass chuck. Then, I want to talk about a little

1027
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: NBA nugget that I swear all of my professional sports

1028
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: pals haven't pointed out, and I don't know why that

1029
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: is the case, but let's do a little ass Chuck,

1030
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: ask Chuck. This first question comes from Andrew E. Here's

1031
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 1: his question. Do you believe that journalism should be something

1032
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 1: that people should go to college for or do you

1033
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 1: think and apprenticeship would be better suited to get people

1034
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: the skills they need. I've been thinking about this problem

1035
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: a lot for other careers such as polls sigh, where

1036
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: you can learn everything you need to know on your

1037
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: own and on a political campaigns such as what Charlie

1038
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 1: Kirk did. The argument for not going to college to

1039
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 1: study political science would be to do research in the

1040
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: field I e. PhD. Etc. What do you think should

1041
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: journalism be an apprenticeship program or should the main pathway

1042
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: be through college. Look, I've always thought that it shouldn't

1043
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 1: be a major, you know. To me, journalism is a

1044
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 1: trade you learn. You know. That doesn't mean you shouldn't

1045
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: go to college. But if you want to be a

1046
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: healthcare journalist, go get a degree in healthcare policy and

1047
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 1: then learn an apprenticeship. I am more pro journalism apprenticeships,

1048
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: whether it's for sports, whatever, whatever the issue is, right,

1049
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: the rules are the same whether you're covering a sporting event,

1050
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: covering a funeral, covering a war zone, et cetera. Right,

1051
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 1: you're trying to get the facts out this, So I

1052
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 1: you know, I think I think you I've never understood

1053
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 1: majoring in journalism. Well to do what what you know instead?

1054
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: And I feel this way about political science. I mean,

1055
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 1: I wish if I could do it all over again,

1056
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 1: I'd either do one or two things. I'd redesign political

1057
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:04,439
Speaker 1: science curriculum. There's look, I do think learning political theory

1058
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 1: is a good thing, but there are certain things that

1059
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: are not included in political science. A lot of political

1060
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 1: science curriculums that should be included to help you understand politics.

1061
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 1: One is demography. I'm a believer that in politics, demography

1062
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 1: is destiny. The other is there's not mandatory macro and microeconomics.

1063
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 1: I can tell you personally, I took those as electives.

1064
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: I feel like I use those the things I learned

1065
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 1: in those two classes as much as anything. I didn't

1066
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 1: take a history of religion, World religion in some form

1067
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: of that, but I wish I did. When you think

1068
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: about understanding the politics of any geographic area, I don't

1069
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 1: care if it's in this country or another country, whatever,

1070
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 1: you need to know a couple of things. What's the

1071
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: primary economic engine of the area, what's the primary belief

1072
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 1: system of the people that live in the area. Right, So,

1073
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: religion and the economy, those aren't part of the mandatory

1074
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: curriculum that you get in political science. So, you know,

1075
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,919
Speaker 1: I've often wondered that we've you know, if I could,

1076
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 1: knowing what I knowing the job that I've been doing,

1077
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 1: I would have just gone a history major and an

1078
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: economics minor with electives in religion, right like that to

1079
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 1: me would have given me all the tools I think

1080
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 1: I needed to cover politics internationally and nationally, right, not

1081
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 1: just American politics, but all of that. So it is

1082
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 1: I'm with you on journalism as a trade. You know,

1083
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: I think it's better to be an expert in the

1084
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: area you're reporting on than, you know, a generalist. You know,

1085
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 1: I think forty years ago we thought, you know, more

1086
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 1: journalists should be generalists, but we've sort of been going

1087
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:49,440
Speaker 1: out of that. And you know, the best way to

1088
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 1: trace it is is through just the medical reporters. When

1089
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: I was growing up, the person on the health beat

1090
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 1: or the medical beat was just a journalist who over

1091
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:01,919
Speaker 1: time had an ex bertise in the health, in health etc.

1092
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: As we got from the twentieth to the twenty first century,

1093
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 1: we started hiring doctors and training them to be journalists.

1094
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: They already had the knowledge, so you're just giving them

1095
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 1: the training that they need to be better communicators and

1096
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: to how to present a good report that's concise and

1097
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 1: consumable to the person watching your news program or reading

1098
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 1: your news report. So I certainly lean on the apprentice

1099
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 1: side of things in your hypothetical there. Thank you for

1100
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 1: that question. Josh M from Virginia writes, I just started

1101
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 1: listening to your podcast with the twenty twenty six californiacumbinatory

1102
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 1: election coming, especially with the primaries in a year, there's

1103
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 1: currently speculation about Vice President Kamala Harris running for governor

1104
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 1: in twenty six after leaving the White House. Although she

1105
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 1: has yet to make a decision, there's a possibility with

1106
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 1: her winning the Democratic primaries and the general election given

1107
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 1: her history in the state, in California being a blue state. However,

1108
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 1: with the fallout over Biden's cognitive decline being revealed to

1109
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 1: the public, there's possibility could lose the primary election due

1110
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: to being the vice president under Joe Biden's presidency. A

1111
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: candidate for the race, Antonio Viragosa, former mayor of LA

1112
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 1: recently accused Harris. And by the way, I'll insert this

1113
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 1: the writer didn't do it, but it was Harris and

1114
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 1: another candidate for governor who was a cabinet secretary, Alvira Basera,

1115
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 1: he's hs HHS secretary for Biden, accusing the two of

1116
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 1: them of covering up Biden's decline. With the accusation, is

1117
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 1: there a possibility that Harris, if she runs for governor,

1118
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: could lose the primary election to another candidate. Well, a

1119
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 1: few things about California's rules. They have an all party primary,

1120
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 1: So look in the top two meeting in general election.

1121
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 1: I can't imagine Harris not being one of the top

1122
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 1: two if she runs. However, look I brought it up before.

1123
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Richard Nixon tried this. He was

1124
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 1: a California Senator, was then put on the ticket by

1125
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 1: Dwight Eisenhower served eight years, was the nominee in nineteen sixty,

1126
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 1: loses to Kennedy in six decides to run for California

1127
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 1: governor in sixty two and loses to Pat Brown. Who

1128
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:07,919
Speaker 1: happens to be Jerry Brown's father. By the way, Pat

1129
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 1: Brown would serve one term and lose to a guy

1130
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: named Ronald Reagan. You may have heard of, So I

1131
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 1: guess you could look at that pattern. I think she risks. Look.

1132
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: I think the Biden stuff is potentially an issue, but

1133
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 1: I think she risks viewing it as a consolation prize.

1134
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:29,640
Speaker 1: She would not be running for governor of California she

1135
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 1: won the presidency, Richard Nixon would not be running for

1136
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 1: would not have been running for California governor, and any

1137
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 1: won the presidency. Voters know this. Voters will pick up

1138
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 1: when somebody is treating them as a consolation prize or

1139
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,920
Speaker 1: a stepping stone or rehab. I think it's just I

1140
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 1: think this is a tougher race for her than she realizes.

1141
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 1: I get it's going to I think her best days

1142
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 1: or first day, and it's you know, had she never

1143
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: been vice president, she'd be the clear front runner, and

1144
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 1: I don't think there'd be any issues. But because of

1145
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:06,720
Speaker 1: the circumstances of why she's available to even run. And

1146
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 1: then here's the other problem. I think it's a change

1147
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 1: election mindset in California. Yet it's she's got to defend

1148
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:16,200
Speaker 1: sixteen straight years of democratic governance. She's got to run

1149
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 1: as a change agent while also defending an incumbent administration.

1150
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 1: Does that sound familiar. She had a hard time to

1151
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:28,439
Speaker 1: being both change and defending Biden in twenty four. She's

1152
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 1: gonna have to do the same thing in twenty six.

1153
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 1: I think it's just a tough, tough race for her.

1154
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: You know, I if I, you know, if I could

1155
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: advise her, I'd be like, go go see if Casey

1156
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 1: Wasserman needs help running the LA twenty twenty eight Olympics.

1157
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 1: You know, get out of politics for two years, Go

1158
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 1: go be a Californian and go help us with the Olympics.

1159
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 1: Do something like that. Do what Mett Romney did, almost

1160
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 1: like take take a cycle off and do that and

1161
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 1: then come back and you preserve because if you lose

1162
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: this governor's race, that's it. I know, Richard Nixon made

1163
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: a come back and we're still trying to figure out

1164
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:04,360
Speaker 1: how the hell that happened. But that's a hard road.

1165
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 1: It's a hard road for a political comeback. All right,

1166
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 1: final question before I'm going to go love the podcast

1167
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 1: and the longer interviews. I'm currently a New Yorker. This

1168
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:14,959
Speaker 1: comes from by the way, Darien from Astoria, Queens. Yes,

1169
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 1: AOC is his rep. He says, I'm currently a New Yorker,

1170
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 1: but every once in a while, I have the urge

1171
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:23,960
Speaker 1: to move back south. That's the issue. It's a black man.

1172
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:26,919
Speaker 1: I feel like I get more bang for my buck here.

1173
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: Which leads me to my question. States like Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia,

1174
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: and Luisa and Georgia have significant black populations. What can

1175
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 1: Democrats do to better maximize this voting block and improve

1176
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 1: their fortunes in the years going forward. We're not monolithic,

1177
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 1: but surely maximizing this vote in the South would be

1178
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 1: easier than figuring out the highly diverse Latino population across

1179
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 1: the Sunbelt. It's an interesting question. I can tell you

1180
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:56,880
Speaker 1: what I've learned about various efforts over the years, and

1181
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 1: you're sort of two different black populations of the South.

1182
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:05,640
Speaker 1: One is as that I think has to do is atrophied.

1183
01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 1: The Democratic Party is sort of not figured out how

1184
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 1: to time. Democratic Party is struggling in rural America in general. Well,

1185
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 1: it's not just rural whites, it's in talking to rural

1186
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:18,520
Speaker 1: blacks too, and the Black Belt, as it's known. And

1187
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:20,680
Speaker 1: you can look by the majority black counties that go

1188
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 1: from sort of the Atlantic coast down to the delta

1189
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 1: in Louisiana. Those counties, their turnout levels have been stagnant

1190
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 1: to going down. And that's Look if you go back

1191
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 1: North Carolina is a great example of this darian. Right

1192
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 1: on the border of North and South Carolina are some

1193
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:44,680
Speaker 1: majority black counties that Barack Obama. Look, Barack Obama carried

1194
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 1: them both in eight and twelve carried them by huge

1195
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 1: margins in eight and guess what Democrats carried the state

1196
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,440
Speaker 1: carried them by smaller margins in twelve, and they didn't

1197
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 1: carry the state. Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris carried them

1198
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 1: by even smaller margins. Okay, they and in some cases

1199
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 1: did can carry a couple of those counties. And we

1200
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 1: spent I sent a reporter there. We used to do

1201
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:08,000
Speaker 1: this county for county deal, and I sent a reporter

1202
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:10,520
Speaker 1: down there to spend a long period of time. We

1203
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 1: wanted to see what kind of because I assume that

1204
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: Democrats were going to spend a lot more time trying

1205
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 1: to solve their at least their rural black voter problem

1206
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 1: in places like North Carolina, Florida, and Georgia. And this

1207
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 1: was going before the twenty twenty cycle, and what we

1208
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:31,600
Speaker 1: learned is just how little you know, A lot of

1209
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 1: it is just showing up, and the Democratic Party hasn't

1210
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 1: shown up in rural South Carolina, where there's a lot

1211
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:42,599
Speaker 1: of Democratic potential Democratic voters that the party doesn't touch.

1212
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 1: There's a little bit, you know there suddenly is in theory.

1213
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:51,160
Speaker 1: Putting South Carolina in the presidential primary calendar is about

1214
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 1: trying to encourage more voter outreach and voter organization of

1215
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:00,720
Speaker 1: rural blacks in South Carolina, So that's a possibility. Mississippi,

1216
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 1: there's always been the numbers say, if Democrats registered every

1217
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,920
Speaker 1: African American voter that was eligible to vote in Mississippi,

1218
01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:15,840
Speaker 1: there'd be a black governor and two black senators. But

1219
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 1: there's been for a variety of reasons. Some of it

1220
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:21,760
Speaker 1: has been done by government over time. Some of it

1221
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:25,880
Speaker 1: is just legacy assumptions that government is preventing them from

1222
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 1: participating fully in the process. But you know, part of

1223
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 1: the problem is Democrats only invest in these states when

1224
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 1: they're really close to an election. Right in Mississippi, if

1225
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 1: it's close to aguberatorial election. And by the way, if

1226
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 1: you look at all the gubernatorial elections in Mississippi, they're

1227
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:45,400
Speaker 1: quite competitive and it all depends on what kind of

1228
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 1: effort is made to turn out African American voters. But

1229
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:51,360
Speaker 1: I really think it's mostly a rural black voter issue

1230
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:54,519
Speaker 1: because the Democrats know how to turn out voters in

1231
01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:58,519
Speaker 1: urban areas and in suburban areas. And if you look

1232
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:02,040
Speaker 1: at the suburban and urban black vote totals in the South,

1233
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 1: they're pretty much where they should be for Democrats to succeed.

1234
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 1: Where they're coming up short is with turnout of rural

1235
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:15,120
Speaker 1: Blacks and then with registering, I would argue as well.

1236
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:21,240
Speaker 1: So I think that's where there's opportunity. Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina,

1237
01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:25,080
Speaker 1: I think together have more unregistered African Americans than the

1238
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 1: rest of the country combined. But there's there's just been.

1239
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 2: It.

1240
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:35,720
Speaker 1: There's never a long term strategy to do this. And

1241
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:37,920
Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is the way the demographics

1242
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:40,840
Speaker 1: of this country are shifting. If the Democrats don't figure

1243
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:42,760
Speaker 1: out how to put more states in play, they're never

1244
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 1: going to have a united They're never going to get

1245
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:46,599
Speaker 1: a majority in the United States Senate. They have got

1246
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 1: to be able to put themselves in a position to

1247
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:51,160
Speaker 1: win Senate seats in a Florida, into Texas, into South Carolina,

1248
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:54,880
Speaker 1: in Mississippi, into Kansas, in Nebraska, in Iowa. You know,

1249
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 1: in the nineties they could get They had two Democratic

1250
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:00,880
Speaker 1: senators in South Dakota, two Democratic senators in North Dakota,

1251
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:04,200
Speaker 1: one Democratic senator in Montana, and that was a fairly

1252
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:08,120
Speaker 1: normal thing. Democrats were competitive in fifty states. Democrats are

1253
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 1: no longer competitive in fifty states, and they're not going

1254
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 1: to Republicans are more competitive and more blue states than

1255
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:18,400
Speaker 1: Democrats are competitive in red states. If they're going to

1256
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 1: try to be a majority party again, particularly with the

1257
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:23,880
Speaker 1: US Senate, they're going to have to change their ways,

1258
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:28,120
Speaker 1: and it would start. You've identified one area that if

1259
01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:33,639
Speaker 1: they just focused on talking to and turning out and

1260
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:37,400
Speaker 1: registering rural African Americans in the South, I think they

1261
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 1: would see their fortunes improve in quite a few states

1262
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 1: down there. I appreciate that. Before I go I'm it

1263
01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:49,120
Speaker 1: just dawned on me. I was in my head thinking

1264
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 1: about what's coming next with the NBA playoffs, and you

1265
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 1: realize it's exciting We're about to have our seventh different champion,

1266
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:02,800
Speaker 1: no matter what happens here under Wolves, Knicks, or Pacers. Right,

1267
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:06,519
Speaker 1: let's assume it's thunder Pacers. I won't make the joke

1268
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:10,040
Speaker 1: about Oklahoma City in Indianapolis. How did the NBA executives

1269
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: feel about that? These days? I kind of think that

1270
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:15,360
Speaker 1: that stuff is old way of thinking. I think the

1271
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:18,040
Speaker 1: excitement of the youth of Oklahoma City, the excitement of

1272
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:21,760
Speaker 1: Tyre's Halliburton, should still bring eyeballs to a matchup like that.

1273
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:25,680
Speaker 1: And frankly, I think Indiana's the only team left that

1274
01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 1: could at least take Oklahoma City to six games. But

1275
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:31,240
Speaker 1: no matter what, it's going to mean our seventh different

1276
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 1: NBA champion since Golden State won in twenty eighteen. We

1277
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 1: had the Raptors in nineteen, the Lakers in twenty, the

1278
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:41,560
Speaker 1: Bucks in twenty one, the Warriors in twenty two, the

1279
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 1: Nuggets in twenty three, the Celtics in twenty four, and

1280
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:49,600
Speaker 1: now whoever, seventh straight. It's never happened before. There was

1281
01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:53,760
Speaker 1: a six straight different champions from seventy five to eighty.

1282
01:12:54,200 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 1: You had the Warriors, Celtics, Blazers, Bullets, Slash Wizards. Sonics

1283
01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:04,719
Speaker 1: slash Thunder than Lakers before you got a repeat champion

1284
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:07,720
Speaker 1: with the Celtics and eighty one. So I just asked

1285
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:11,200
Speaker 1: this question, do you like parody or do you like

1286
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 1: rooting for or against dynasties. I know what the TV

1287
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 1: ratings and the influencers say, dynasties are more fun to

1288
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:23,040
Speaker 1: either love or hate than thinking about parody. But as

1289
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:25,920
Speaker 1: a Wizard slash Heat fan, I'm just glad to know

1290
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:30,880
Speaker 1: the NBA Finals are accessible. They feel more accessible than

1291
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 1: they have in a long time. So with that, I

1292
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 1: say kudos Adam Silver, and with that, until we upload again.