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Speaker 1: Amy Robock and TJ.

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Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone,

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Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller.

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Speaker 1: Today.

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Speaker 2: We're picking up our conversation with veteran true crime reporter

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Speaker 2: Ted Rowlands, who covered the Scott Peterson case from the

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Speaker 2: very beginning. Have you spoken with Mark Garrigos.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, yeah, I know.

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Speaker 2: I interviewed him as well, and I want he's That

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Speaker 2: was the first time that I thought, wait a second,

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Speaker 2: I see how it's possible that maybe Scott Peterson didn't

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Speaker 2: do it. And I never thought that I would even

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Speaker 2: entertain that idea, but Mark made me.

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Speaker 1: Mark is very you know, Mark at the time was

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Speaker 1: representing Michael Jackson and Michael told him him basically summoned

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Speaker 1: him from Modesto to Neverland and said, it's either me

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Speaker 1: or him. I'm not You're not doing this Peterson, fella,

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Speaker 1: if you're representing me, and he chose Scott Peterson over

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson, and Michael Jackson was a winner. Tom Mezra

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Speaker 1: went on to represent and exonerate Jackson on that case

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Speaker 1: that he was being tried on the second one. But

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Speaker 1: the that was how much Mark believed it, Scott, and

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Speaker 1: he you know, the attention was there, but he believed

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Speaker 1: in looking past the affair and he saw it in

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Speaker 1: that other realm that you know, how are you going

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Speaker 1: to prove this? How did he do it? You can't

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Speaker 1: prove it because you don't know how he did it.

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Speaker 1: And he thought that would carry the day. They they

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Speaker 1: knew the tapes were a problem, they just didn't They

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Speaker 1: didn't think that Amber Fry was going to knock it

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Speaker 1: out of the park.

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Speaker 2: And she did right right, I mean, she's she's very believable.

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Speaker 2: Is the most sort of authentic person in front of

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Speaker 2: a camera that I've seen. So you sat in the

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Speaker 2: courtroom during the trial, obviously, and did Scott behave differently

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Speaker 2: in court than he had in your interviews earlier with him?

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Speaker 1: No, he was just there sitting there. One thing that

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Speaker 1: he did do which did not do him any favors

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Speaker 1: was and Mark does this too in trial. He's if

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Speaker 1: you watch Mark in a courtroom, he takes it over.

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Speaker 1: But he also is kind of he jokes around a

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Speaker 1: little bit, and you know, he's got a good sense

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Speaker 1: of humor, so he'll banter with the judge and with

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Speaker 1: other people and jurors usually chuckl it. He works to

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Speaker 1: his advantage. Scott would sit next to him and like

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Speaker 1: smile and laugh too, and he was just not He

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Speaker 1: didn't look like the guy who was on trial for

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Speaker 1: double murder or something. He didn't do. He was that

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Speaker 1: salesmany weird, you know, nervous grin and he didn't do

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Speaker 1: himself any favors. Over months. You know, the juria is sitting,

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Speaker 1: you know, just feet away from him for months and

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Speaker 1: months and they're absorbing everything, and he didn't. He just

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Speaker 1: didn't portray the guy that strongly convicted me.

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Speaker 2: Right, So how surreal was it hearing your own conversations

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Speaker 2: with Scott played in court during the murder trial? And

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Speaker 2: also is it true that one of Scott nevers calls

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Speaker 2: recorded by the police was interrupted by you calling?

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Speaker 1: Yes, that was that was a moment because I again

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Speaker 1: I called this dude times the day and we're just

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Speaker 1: and this is back when you know, you had the

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Speaker 1: cell phones where they weren't smartphones they early and one

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Speaker 1: of the times she's talking to Amber and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, the call like breaks away, and so the

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Speaker 1: prosecutor was talking to the detective who was in charge

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Speaker 1: of the wire tab and said, so, what happened there?

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Speaker 1: And the Nevers says, well, Ted Rowlands called in and

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Speaker 1: it bumped the call and everybody looks back at me

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Speaker 1: said sorry, it was those moments. Oh god, I wish

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Speaker 1: I wasn't here.

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Speaker 2: And so did you keep calling him because you wanted

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Speaker 2: more info from him or you were wanting to like,

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Speaker 2: were you trying to break him down to give you

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Speaker 2: some sort of info or were you like what was

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Speaker 2: what was the intention behind the calls?

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Speaker 1: He was just not He was unable to tell me stop,

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Speaker 1: and so I kept going and he was unable to say.

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Speaker 1: He would always say, well maybe tomorrow, Like dude, I said,

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Speaker 1: just give me fine minutes, come over, we'll come over.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm right outside. You give me a fine minutes,

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Speaker 1: maybe tomorrow or call me later. So I did. I

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Speaker 1: called him all the time. One time I called him

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Speaker 1: and he said he was in San Diego and he

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Speaker 1: drove right by while we were on the phone.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you're kidding.

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Speaker 1: He calls back, or it was right after and he

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Speaker 1: calls right back right away. He's like, I'm sorry I

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Speaker 1: layed you did, Like, so don't worry about it.

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Speaker 2: It's so bizarre. But then that whole thing too. He

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Speaker 2: dies his hair and he has his brother's ID and

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Speaker 2: like all the credit, all this weird stuff and money

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Speaker 2: and like.

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Speaker 1: Your fire and yes, so here's the problem that they

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Speaker 1: have an answer for everything, right, the brother's I d

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Speaker 1: discount at the at Tory Pines golf Course. Okay, dyed

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Speaker 1: my hair to run away from the media, not you know, authorities. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I get that. The survivable kit in the back, what's

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Speaker 1: that for the cash or he's gonna buy you know,

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Speaker 1: he's gonna buy a new car. It's oh, it's the

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Speaker 1: thing after you know, just just so many that at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, you like as John Bueller,

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Speaker 1: one of the detectives, every time I try.

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Speaker 3: To like ask him questions and said, what about this drawn,

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Speaker 3: he just looks at me and he's like, come on, dad,

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Speaker 3: so him and and my wife.

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Speaker 1: Yea.

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Speaker 2: Well. So one thing that people still debate is motive.

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Speaker 2: So did the prosecutors ultimately convince the jury that Scott

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Speaker 2: just simply didn't want the responsibilities of marriage and fatherhood.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that that those those calls really

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Speaker 1: helped them. May they they created a scenario where he

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Speaker 1: was a monster. And all the people that had met

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Speaker 1: him beforehand said he was just this people pleasing, nice

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Speaker 1: gentleman who even as a youngster, would help out. You know,

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Speaker 1: if he saw a woman with you know, groceries, an

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Speaker 1: older woman, he'd go help you and not asked to

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Speaker 1: do it. He was just that guy. He was a

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Speaker 1: complete people pleaser. That's why he wouldn't tell me to

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Speaker 1: stop calling him. And he didn't take the stand, and

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Speaker 1: they they did practice. They had a cross examining, a

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Speaker 1: mock cross examination with Bay Area attorney Michael Cardoza, and

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Speaker 1: it didn't go well, and so they decided, let's not

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Speaker 1: put him on the stand. So the jury saw him

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Speaker 1: as the biggest scoundrel that they've ever even envisioned, with

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Speaker 1: these calls and this cheating and this so that they

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Speaker 1: could have told the jury anything in terms of voting,

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Speaker 1: they didn't care. You're talking about the devil himself sitting

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Speaker 1: there in the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: Well, and especially that he told Amber that he quote

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Speaker 2: lost his wife before Amber, before Lacy was even missing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that is despicable, and that wasn't recorded. But

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Speaker 1: the again, so this is where the defense was. They

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Speaker 1: knew they had the tapes. They didn't know they had

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Speaker 1: amber in the form that she showed up in and scorned.

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Speaker 1: Very but not angry woman. She was not there to

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Speaker 1: pound flashing and try to single handedly win this thing.

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Speaker 1: She just got up there and told her version of

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Speaker 1: the story. So that critical moment where they asked her

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Speaker 1: about the phone conversation, she delivered it in a very

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Speaker 1: believable fashion. So the cross examination fell flat. You just

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Speaker 1: believed her. You believed at the end of the day

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Speaker 1: that he told her he lost, that this was the

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Speaker 1: first Christmas without his wife and she's alive, and well,

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Speaker 1: I mean it is that that is just gives you chills.

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Speaker 2: It gives you the chills for sure. So how significant

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Speaker 2: was the famous the boat anchor? Evidence? That he had

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Speaker 2: made this homemade boat anchor? But then they it appeared

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Speaker 2: as if he had made two because of the evidence

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Speaker 2: where he made them, Like how important was that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so he made basically, you buys the boat, so

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Speaker 1: then instead of buying an anchor, he saved some money,

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Speaker 1: go and gets a little mold, put cement in it

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Speaker 1: and a little bit of rebar. He says he made one,

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Speaker 1: and they recovered one, they believe, And this to me

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Speaker 1: was a stretcher, but the you know, it's sold enough

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Speaker 1: that there were imprints of four different anchors made on

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Speaker 1: this sheet. I don't know if it was wood or paper.

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Speaker 1: I can't I can't remember. But and if you looked

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Speaker 1: hard enough, you could convince yourself that you could see

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Speaker 1: maybe the outline of form, but was it the same

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Speaker 1: one moved around. It was their way to explain why

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Speaker 1: Lacey's body was held down for so long before that

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Speaker 1: storm brought her back to the surface. They needed something

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Speaker 1: there to explain how he did it, because you get

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Speaker 1: into the weed again. Fourteen foot boat. Gargos did an

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Speaker 1: experiment of putting the fourteen foot boat out on the

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Speaker 1: bay with a awaited, you know, fake body, and one

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Speaker 1: person trying to throw that body over it. It is

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Speaker 1: really hard to get your head around how he pulled

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Speaker 1: this off.

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Speaker 2: Right again, here I am again saying did he not

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Speaker 2: do it? But then it's like, of course he did it.

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Speaker 1: I can't it's right, yeah, why how could he have

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Speaker 1: not done it? Given his behavior? And behavior is a

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Speaker 1: huge part of the equation. The cops, they'll tell you

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Speaker 1: they five minutes after media the dude thought he did it.

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Speaker 1: Now we just got to prove it, and that sometimes

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Speaker 1: is used against law enforcement in the court justifiably so

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Speaker 1: because they get blinders that they just get tunnel vision,

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Speaker 1: and all they're looking for is the is Scott. I

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Speaker 1: interviewed a couple of people that saw They believe they

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Speaker 1: saw Lacey walking Mackenzie.

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Speaker 2: Right, So let's talk about it.

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Speaker 1: That's true. If that's true, he's innocent.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: They didn't call them, and each one had their own flaws.

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Speaker 1: My favorite, Adrian Mitchell, and her last name was Mitchell.

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Speaker 1: I went to her house and she went inside her

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Speaker 1: kitchen and she we were looking out her window at

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Speaker 1: her kitchen. SI right at the same spot where she

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Speaker 1: was right here, that beautiful eight month old, you know,

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Speaker 1: eight month pregnant woman. And I just I can remember

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Speaker 1: I was yesterday and it was that day this time,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, wow, that's great Vivian Mitchell. Turns out

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Speaker 1: she had dementia, so it didn't oh gosh, but uh,

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Speaker 1: every one of them had a version of him and

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Speaker 1: the Defense Society because they thought they had a couple

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Speaker 1: of jurors. They believed that they had Strawberry Shortcake on

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Speaker 1: their side because she was always looking at Scott little

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Speaker 1: they know that she was looking all at Scott that gaze.

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Speaker 1: They thought, all right there, because they're medical expert bombed,

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Speaker 1: they thought, all right, let's get out, let's just rest,

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Speaker 1: and we think we've got at least one or two

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Speaker 1: jurors and we're going to hang this thing. And they boy,

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Speaker 1: they were wrong.

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Speaker 2: Boy were they wrong. Did you happen to see the

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Speaker 2: Lacy Peterson movie where Dean Kine plays Scott Peterson?

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Speaker 1: Yes, and.

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Speaker 2: You did. You loved it? So so many things are

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Speaker 2: curious to me about that one that it was essentially

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Speaker 2: being made while this was happening.

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Speaker 1: It was quite early, you're right there. It was before

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Speaker 1: he was convicted. They're no trial or anything.

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Speaker 2: It's just yeah, yeah, So do you think that was

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Speaker 2: close to the truth? And were any of those people

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Speaker 2: supposed to be you? I'm sure one of those reporters

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Speaker 2: was alluded to being.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of them was. But like it

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Speaker 1: was totally fictitious, Like a couple of the things that

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Speaker 1: that person supposedly did. I'm like, I wish I were

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Speaker 1: done some versions of that, but not not not being

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Speaker 1: that much of an ass, but they I'll be honest,

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Speaker 1: I was for whatever reason, the day I walked out

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Speaker 1: of that first meeting with him, I was just like

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Speaker 1: a dog with a bone on this one. I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, this guy did it. And I and

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Speaker 1: that I you know, when I ever came out one

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Speaker 1: the other way, but I was, I was hooked, like

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Speaker 1: so many people are this many years later. There's the

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Speaker 1: whole thing. It's so infuriating and heartbreaking, all you know,

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Speaker 1: all in one. And we just went there as a

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Speaker 1: one off because we had nothing to cover on Christmas

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Speaker 1: Eve or just the day after Christmas was twenty six,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing going on. So I was like, that's a

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Speaker 1: missing lady in my first report, Stacy Peterson is missing

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Speaker 1: now because I'm thinking about getting out of town and

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Speaker 1: going back to the Bay Area.

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Speaker 2: Right sure, sure, Oh my gosh. I mean so now

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Speaker 2: all this fresh attention that is getting because of the

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Speaker 2: Innocence Project, were you surprised that that came about, that

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Speaker 2: they took on his case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's a there's a difference between the

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Speaker 1: La Innocence Project and the Innocence Project the Nashville We

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Speaker 1: should make that clear, right, Yeah. So I think at first,

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Speaker 1: like when I first came across, I was like, no, why,

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Speaker 1: Like the Barry shek In Innocence Project, folks are like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, it's huge. They must have something right, right,

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Speaker 1: So this is just a group fairly new, you know,

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Speaker 1: within the last ten years. I think they had the

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Speaker 1: fund working through visit Fullerton one of the schools down there,

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Speaker 1: And you know, I understand why they think that this

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Speaker 1: would be a good one to take because if they

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Speaker 1: can get him a new trial, by goodness, you know,

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Speaker 1: they could do anything. And the other on the flip side,

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Speaker 1: are there people that never had Mark Garrigos and they're

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Speaker 1: rotting in prison that would deserve that attention more Because

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Speaker 1: it's a very good argument to say that Scott had

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Speaker 1: a very good attorney and had more than most people

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Speaker 1: in terms of a fair trial.

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Speaker 2: Right, I agree with you one hundred percent there. I

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Speaker 2: feel like those those resources and that funding could be

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Speaker 2: better used with someone who really never got a trial,

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Speaker 2: a truly fair one.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Oh, there's two different versions of justice. We see it

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Speaker 1: play out on Court TV every day. There was a

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Speaker 1: case in Florida a couple of weeks ago that we

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Speaker 1: were covering. Dude went down on a murder and death

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Speaker 1: within a week they sentenced him to death and then

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Speaker 1: we'll have another high profile I'll trial that'll last months.

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Speaker 1: And right, this was just nobody cared and you know,

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Speaker 1: you thought yourself, Okay, he probably did it. But if

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Speaker 1: we're going to kill someone, should we, you know, at

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Speaker 1: least give it a little more out. So it yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's there. As much as people say, we do

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Speaker 1: have the greatest system likely on the planet, but there

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Speaker 1: are some people that fall through the cracks, absolutely, but

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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson was not one of them. He had one

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Speaker 1: of the best attorneys in the country, represents right.

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Speaker 2: Right. So more than twenty years later, why are people

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Speaker 2: still completely fascinated by Scott Peterson.

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Speaker 1: Just because there's no there's no video of it, there's

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Speaker 1: there and there is this heartbeat. They he won't stop,

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Speaker 1: his family won't stop. The la Innocence Project is now here.

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Speaker 1: It's for some, it's infuriating. I can't believe we're talking

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Speaker 1: about Scott Peterson and they. But talk to Jeannie, just

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Speaker 1: sit down, talked to Jennie for an hour and you'll

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Speaker 1: be like, all right, I get it, and why you

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Speaker 1: think he didn't do it? But I still think he

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Speaker 1: did it. You know, it's how did he do it?

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Speaker 1: And no one can answer him, not even the prosecution,

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Speaker 1: not not where, not when, and not how did they

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Speaker 1: Did he strangle her? Did he suffocate her? And everyone

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Speaker 1: has their different theories. Probably waited until she was asleep

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Speaker 1: and put a pillow over her.

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Speaker 4: You know that GHB was floated during the drug investigation, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: because that would explain how you get her out of

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Speaker 4: there without her dying and releasing in the fluids, so

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Speaker 4: you could then.

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Speaker 1: Now he's burying her alive. Oh my god, it's even

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Speaker 1: like that's another that So whatever it is that he did,

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Speaker 1: if he did it, is.

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Speaker 2: Diabolical, right, I think that's definitely fair to say. And

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Speaker 2: that's his the whole demeanor again, this whole even that

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Speaker 2: it has never fall to I just it's too even keeled,

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Speaker 2: like that's that's crazy behavior.

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Speaker 1: That is he is an aunt that lives in Berkeley,

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Speaker 1: and he went to stay with her to get away

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Speaker 1: from the media for a while, and she was She

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Speaker 1: called me one night and because I was on at

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Speaker 1: the KTVU in the Bay Area and too there so

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Speaker 1: that I was on the local news there and she

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Speaker 1: watched me and I just finished a report and the

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Speaker 1: newsroom packed through this this phone call from her, and

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Speaker 1: she had taken him in and he was living with her,

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Speaker 1: and she was like totally on his side and thought

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Speaker 1: that he was wrongly accused. But over and we met

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Speaker 1: and had a relationship. In fact, she would give me

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Speaker 1: he would mail all his to say stamps, you only

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Speaker 1: get a certain amounts stamps. She would send all these

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Speaker 1: letters to her and then just so it was just

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Speaker 1: one mail mailing and then she would send them off.

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Speaker 1: But she copied them all and she would give me

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Speaker 1: the copies of them, and when they were like classic

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Speaker 1: one of them is like I'm on, please vote me

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Speaker 1: off this island. The food sucks here, and like it was,

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Speaker 1: oh my god. See. But anyway, over time she told

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Speaker 1: me change He's like, dude, did it gave me the

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Speaker 1: crezy you're kidding? Yeah, And like his behavior living with

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Speaker 1: him in this period of time she went from support

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Speaker 1: event to get out.

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Speaker 2: Interesting. One last thing, I really want to know why

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Speaker 2: if Janie is so she's so vocal and so public

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Speaker 2: about her support of Scott, what about Scott's brother? How

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Speaker 2: come he doesn't or is she just sort of the

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Speaker 2: voice for the family.

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Speaker 1: She's the dominant voice absolutely and really always has been

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Speaker 1: during this search and after the trial, as when everybody

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Speaker 1: turned against Scott, she was the one sort of go

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Speaker 1: to that would engage. And I think it's personality more

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Speaker 1: than anything else. And I can only imagine what they

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Speaker 1: have families, they have lives to lead, and he has

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Speaker 1: burdened them, innocent or not, or guilty or innocent, no matter.

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Speaker 1: He has changed their lives forever, all of them, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah I can I don't blame them, put it that way.

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Speaker 2: Right, well, Ted, this has been so fascinating. I could

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Speaker 2: talk to you for hours about.

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Speaker 1: All of this. A couple of wine exactly, Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: We're going to solve it. Maybe maybe I'm the missing piece.

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Speaker 2: We've been waiting for me to really be the key

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Speaker 2: person to solve this. So tell us what's where we

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Speaker 2: can find you now and what to look for.

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Speaker 1: I host a show every day on Court TV from

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Speaker 1: eleven from ten, sorry I know what time in my mind,

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Speaker 1: from ten until one a live show and Eastern time,

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Speaker 1: and we just of her live trials all day every day,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we cover breaking stories as they happen,

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Speaker 1: the crime portion.

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Speaker 5: Of it, but the bulk of our work is in

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Speaker 5: the courtroom, and having gone to so many courtrooms over

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Speaker 5: my career, it's nice to actually sit up here and

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Speaker 5: watch for my comfortable chair.

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Speaker 2: Right well, I hope that we have an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: talk again about something, you know, another trial, another movie

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Speaker 2: about a trial.

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Speaker 1: I'd love it, would love that. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for having me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Ted,