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Speaker 1: dot com slash chuck. So joining me now. He is

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Speaker 1: the directmentory that you can see on Netflix right now.

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Speaker 1: It's called All the Empty Rooms and this is uh

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Speaker 1: it's it's about gun violence, but it's not about gun violence.

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Speaker 1: What the doc is is about is going back to

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Speaker 1: the victims of school shootings, to their parents who allowed

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Speaker 1: my guest and his filmmakers. My guest is the director

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Speaker 1: of this film of All the Empty Rooms, called Joshua Seftel,

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Speaker 1: and it's in some ways a it's the bigger picture.

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Speaker 1: And I want to talk to josh about this because

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Speaker 1: I've I've done my own little things. When I was

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Speaker 1: doing Meet the Press Reports, our document document series that

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Speaker 1: I had put together in conjunction with me, the press,

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Speaker 1: and we were constantly looking for different ways to portray

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Speaker 1: gun violence, to try to break through the numbness that

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Speaker 1: the public felt. And I you know, one time we

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Speaker 1: featured a mortician who explained what it was like to

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Speaker 1: deal with gunshot victims. And so we did our own

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Speaker 1: ways to do this. This was a very powerful another

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Speaker 1: powerful way to do it, and in fact, as powerful

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Speaker 1: as I've seen yet. And so the director of All

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Speaker 1: the Empty Rooms, Josh Seftel, joins me. Now, Joss, it's

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Speaker 1: nice to meet you.

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Speaker 2: Same here, Chuck, great to be here.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean that's the you know, in some ways,

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Speaker 1: you could say, Okay, I already know everything I need

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Speaker 1: to know about this, stop right. I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: straightforward thing. And yet if you don't watch it, you

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Speaker 1: don't get it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people have said that they after

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Speaker 2: they watch it, they say, wow, that's not what I

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Speaker 2: was expecting. And I think what has happened is that

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Speaker 2: a lot of us in this country have become numb

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Speaker 2: to the idea of school shootings. You know, there was

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Speaker 2: a school shooting last week, and then there was one

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Speaker 2: in the week before, and there are about over one

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Speaker 2: hundred school shootings a year now, we don't even hear

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Speaker 2: about most of them, and we've reached the point where

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Speaker 2: it just becomes a headline that literally fades away within

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Speaker 2: hours or even minutes.

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Speaker 1: And we almost treated it like the flu. Oh there's

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Speaker 1: an outbreak, it's crazy.

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Speaker 2: We've we've accepted it as something that's normal, and it's

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Speaker 2: not normal. And we you know, with this film, like

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Speaker 2: your story about the mortician, it's it's another way of

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Speaker 2: talking about the issue, but it's really what we've done

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Speaker 2: is we've gone into the empty bedrooms and told the

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Speaker 2: stories of each child through the objects that are left

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Speaker 2: behind in that room. And there's something about that that

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Speaker 2: I think has resonated with people where it forces you

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Speaker 2: as a human being to feel something.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've shifted on this, and i'd say, you know,

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Speaker 1: you guys talked about in the in the Dock the

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Speaker 1: media's role in this, and when when school shootings first started,

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Speaker 1: and and sort of the patient zero in this case

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Speaker 1: was the probably the University of Texas. You know, that

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Speaker 1: was the modern sort of beginning of this. And in

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Speaker 1: the eighties, you and I are about the same age.

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Speaker 1: We grew up with the so called postal shootings, right

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Speaker 1: where it was supposedly post you know, people were going

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Speaker 1: member it became a phrase, going postal. Then Columbine happens,

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Speaker 1: and it shifts and it's and there is something about

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Speaker 1: this mass shooting virus that's in our society where you know, yes,

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Speaker 1: the workplace is still a place that is a potential

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Speaker 1: vulnerable spot. But we haven't stopped with the school shootings,

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Speaker 1: like we haven't moved past that. It's continues to be

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Speaker 1: and it's a I think we're all trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out why is it accelerating?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, in the in our film, Steve Hartman,

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Speaker 2: who is the CBS news reporter. He's on CBS Sunday

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Speaker 2: Morning and the evening news.

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Speaker 1: Right, he's the good news guy. He's the good you

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Speaker 1: feel better, right, He's the he is the way do

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Speaker 1: you hear this one? And in a good way? Right?

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Speaker 1: He makes you cry, It's it's one of those, but

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Speaker 1: it's in a good cry usually exactly.

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Speaker 2: And he decided, you know, seven years ago that he

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Speaker 2: was sick and tired of all the school shootings and

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Speaker 2: even having to report on them in a way where

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Speaker 2: they would say, hey, Steve, go go figure out, like

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Speaker 2: what's the silver lining on this one. You know, find

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Speaker 2: a hero, find a find the libraryan that you know

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Speaker 2: collected all the condolence cards, or find the EMT who

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Speaker 2: got there in time to save one of the lives.

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Speaker 2: And he and you know, those stories matter. But he

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Speaker 2: just reached a point where he said, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to do that anymore because nothing's changing. And when he started,

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Speaker 2: when he covered his first school shooting, which was in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven in pel Mississippi, he I think there

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Speaker 2: were seventeen school shootings a year, which is too many.

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Speaker 2: But now when we were making the film, there were

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Speaker 2: over one hundred and thirty school shootings a year. So

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Speaker 2: you know, you do the math on that, and it's

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Speaker 2: just insane.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is why I understand why many people think,

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Speaker 1: is it the media's fault that this is accelerated, Not

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Speaker 1: that the media causes it, but that the media helps

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Speaker 1: plant the seed. Right, And look, you guys delve into this.

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Speaker 1: You know, when we first covered school shootings, it was

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Speaker 1: always through the perspective of the shooter. Who is this guy?

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Speaker 1: Who is this person that climbed up on the Texas

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Speaker 1: on the bell tower, Who is this person that was

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Speaker 1: wearing a long coat leather coat, and they became infamous. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then we rightly realized, hey, what are we doing?

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Speaker 1: You know, don't do this because that does you will

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Speaker 1: encourage copycatters.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: It's the same thing with with the coverage of serial

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Speaker 1: killers in the eighties and how how media covered serial

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Speaker 1: killers in the eighties. And I think it's a much

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Speaker 1: different situation now, but it's I mean, what is the

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Speaker 1: right way to do this? I think we The fact

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Speaker 1: that this gets worse, not better means we're not doing

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Speaker 1: this the right way. We haven't found it yet.

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Speaker 2: There is you know, the most popular nonfiction programming out

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Speaker 2: there is true crime. Yeah, there's something about human beings

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Speaker 2: that we wanted. I personally am not interested in it,

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Speaker 2: but we want to hear these stories. We want to

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Speaker 2: hear about the person who did something bad. You want

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Speaker 2: to understand them, judge them, maybe see them face justice

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Speaker 2: or not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I have a thesis that it's just all about

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Speaker 1: making ourselves feel better about our place.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I think you might be right.

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Speaker 1: Right, That's why this appeals so much because I I

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Speaker 1: don't get it either. I don't want to see how

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Speaker 1: bad humanity is to each other all the time.

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Speaker 2: But I think that the news organizations, you know, are

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Speaker 2: are tempted by that kind of storytelling. And it's hard,

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Speaker 2: you know, because people are interested. But I do commend

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Speaker 2: many of them for shifting over time because a lot

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Speaker 2: of the organizations, including CBS News where Steve worked, have

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Speaker 2: made a commitment to not focus on the on the

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Speaker 2: shooters and to spend less time on that. And what

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Speaker 2: Steve Hartman wanted to do, and this is you know,

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Speaker 2: we followed him for this was a seven year project.

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Speaker 2: We followed him our film crew for a couple of

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Speaker 2: years of the toward the end of the project, and

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Speaker 2: what he wanted to do was to shifted even further

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Speaker 2: away from talking about the shooters to completely just focusing

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Speaker 2: on the lives lived by these children. And that's where

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Speaker 2: the empty bedrooms come in, is we you know, I

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Speaker 2: haven't told you how the project started. Steve was fed

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Speaker 2: up and he actually wrote a letter to every single

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Speaker 2: family who lost to child since Sandy Hook and he said,

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Speaker 2: I want to come to your house with a photographer

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Speaker 2: and I want to take pictures of your child's empty room.

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Speaker 2: And to his surprise, a bunch of people said yes.

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Speaker 2: And he started to collect these photographs. And then he

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Speaker 2: reached out to me three years ago and he was

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Speaker 2: he said, you know, I'm starting to collect these photos.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what to do with them, and do

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Speaker 2: you think there might be a documentary film here? And

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Speaker 2: he showed me one of the photos. It was a

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Speaker 2: photo of a child's bathroom and there was a toothpaste too,

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Speaker 2: with the cap left off, and you could tell and

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Speaker 2: feel the sense of the child who had once been

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Speaker 2: there and left that cap off, went to school saying

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Speaker 2: like I'll put that on later, and never came home,

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Speaker 2: and you could feel the absence literally, And I just thought, wow,

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Speaker 2: this could be very powerful and a whole new way

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Speaker 2: to reframe this issue. And so that was three years ago.

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Speaker 2: We set out on the road a couple months after that,

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Speaker 2: using credit cards, trying to figure out how to piece

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Speaker 2: this together. And three years later, you know, we have

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Speaker 2: this film. It's on Netflix, it's nominated for an Academy Award,

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Speaker 2: and we're trying to show people a different side of

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Speaker 2: the issue, which is the children, Like what is the

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Speaker 2: cost of all of this? What is the cost? What

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Speaker 2: is the human toll that that we're all facing from this?

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Speaker 2: And because we don't get to see that. No, it

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Speaker 2: doesn't cover that.

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Speaker 1: We when I was telling you about the what what

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Speaker 1: I actually the piece that we had done, it's about

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Speaker 1: three years ago now it still sits in YouTube, and

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Speaker 1: it was it was part of this. You know, I

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Speaker 1: got frustrated that that the regular meet the press, I

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Speaker 1: couldn't tackle these issues right for a variety of reasons, right, meaning, oh,

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Speaker 1: you've got to be on the news and you've got

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Speaker 1: to react to what's happening in the White House, and

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Speaker 1: the Trump era is the Trump era, right, and you

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Speaker 1: realize we needed an outlet. We have all the we

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Speaker 1: have all the room in the world and the wage

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Speaker 1: of streaming, right, and so we thought we wanted to

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Speaker 1: go back to these places where there were mass shootings

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Speaker 1: and just find out how people were living their lives

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Speaker 1: a year later, two years later. And that's how we

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Speaker 1: were at a bar, where how are people getting along

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Speaker 1: now with you know, six months later because we don't

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Speaker 1: go back. You know how often I've had to cover

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Speaker 1: a ton of school shootings, just like Steve did. I

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Speaker 1: mean that was just you know, if you if you

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Speaker 1: were in the main in television media in the in

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Speaker 1: the last twenty years you've had and had an anchor,

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Speaker 1: You've anchored your shrif of school shootings. We always say

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Speaker 1: we're not you know, hey, we'll be back. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're not just telling the story right now, we're coming back.

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Speaker 1: We don't come back, right we don't we By the way,

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Speaker 1: when we say we're going to come back, we do

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Speaker 1: mean it at the moment. You know, I really genuinely

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Speaker 1: believe that, like, yeah, we should, we definitely will come back.

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Speaker 1: And then stuff happens.

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Speaker 2: More school shootings happen usually. And what was interesting for

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Speaker 2: us was that some of the people we visited and

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Speaker 2: photographed the empty rooms in their houses was they had

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Speaker 2: never talked to the press. It's amazingly why they had

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Speaker 2: said no. They said no, I mean, why would they

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Speaker 2: want to talk to the press, you know, after they.

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Speaker 1: But they need to share that, you know, in some ways,

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Speaker 1: I think what you're hopefully with this, what this does

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Speaker 1: for families and victims. You have to tell your story.

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Speaker 1: I know it's hurts, but you have to tell your story.

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Speaker 1: People need to see this. And that was exactly that

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Speaker 1: was all the way back to Emmett Till. Right when

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Speaker 1: Emmettill's mother said you must print these photos in Life magazine.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, that's agreed.

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Speaker 1: This is in some ways it's a derivative of that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great comparison. The families said to us,

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Speaker 2: we don't want our child to be forgotten. We want

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Speaker 2: the world to know about them. And we were saying

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Speaker 2: to them, we're coming here to tell the world about

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Speaker 2: your child and who they were and the life they

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Speaker 2: lived through through the empty room, and we were very

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Speaker 2: much aligned in that, and it's what they want. They

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Speaker 2: want the world to not forget.

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Speaker 1: day and age where there's record there's so many recordings now,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I'm sitting here watching your film and

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking at the same time, and I'm wondering if

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Speaker 1: I'm in this position for whatever reason, I'm two kids

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Speaker 1: in college. I don't know what I would want. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I would want to say videos of

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Speaker 1: them and see them alive, if I can't be with

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Speaker 1: them alive. I was just thinking, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: one of those that was I didn't know if that

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Speaker 1: was gut wrenching or not. The keeping the room as

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Speaker 1: it is made that really resonated with me. It is

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Speaker 1: this day and age where you get to go back

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Speaker 1: into time and see these people alive. It's spooky and

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Speaker 1: I don't know how I would handle that as a

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Speaker 1: as a parent. I that was a It was one

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Speaker 1: of those I've just was you know, you do you

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Speaker 1: let your own mind wander when you have your you know,

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Speaker 1: when you when you're And I'm sure a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who have watched this film have shared with you

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Speaker 1: experiences like that where you just start putting yourself in

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Speaker 1: that place. What would you do? How would you do it?

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Speaker 1: I really connected with the mother who said, you know

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Speaker 1: what I did? I want the room to smell like

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Speaker 1: my son.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I thought about that because my kids just are

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Speaker 1: in college. They're still here, they're still alive, but their

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Speaker 1: rooms smell like them in my nest, and it means

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Speaker 1: a lot to me. So I don't it is it is.

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Speaker 1: That's what made this move film so powerful, is that

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Speaker 1: you actually didn't need you barely needed narration.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well there's so there's you know that that room

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Speaker 2: in Santa Clarita Dominic Blackwell's bedroom, the parents keep the

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Speaker 2: dirty laundry basket. Yeah, it's been there for six years

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Speaker 2: and they haven't got that. Yeah, and and they, like

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Speaker 2: you said, they keep it because they don't want to

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Speaker 2: lose the smell of their child. And Frank was telling

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Speaker 2: me the other day, Frank's Dominic's father. He was saying

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Speaker 2: that the hardest part is that you start to forget

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Speaker 2: what their voice sounded like. And and I think that's

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Speaker 2: why they liked having the video. You actually start to

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Speaker 2: forget what their voice sounded like, and then you hear

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Speaker 2: the you watch the video and you remember. So it's

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Speaker 2: a it's uh, yeah, it's unimaginable.

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Speaker 1: How do you compartmentalize when you make something like this?

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Speaker 1: Because there are days, there were days when I'd cover

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Speaker 1: school shooting. So I mean, look, I was at the

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Speaker 1: White House lawn for Sandy Hook and my kids were

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Speaker 1: the same exact age, right, And I was on the

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Speaker 1: lawn with the Jake Tapper and Norah O'Donnell at the time,

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Speaker 1: and we all had kids the same age, and we

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Speaker 1: were a wreck, and we had to do live shots

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Speaker 1: all day and it was exhausting and you know, no, please,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't even I wasn't a victim, right, it was

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Speaker 1: just you know, having to having to pull it together

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Speaker 1: right and not be able to. So how do you

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Speaker 1: how did you how did you compartmentalize putting this together?

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Speaker 1: Because it's this, this, this really had to hit you

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Speaker 1: on some days.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean two of the kids in the film

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Speaker 2: are this We're the same age as my daughter, my

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Speaker 2: oldest daughter, nine years old. Yeah, it is. It's tough.

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Speaker 2: I try not to center my experience in the in

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Speaker 2: talking about the film, because that, you know, what these

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Speaker 2: families have gone through.

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Speaker 1: Is just, yeah, this is their experience.

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Speaker 2: I get that it's unacceptable, it's it's horrible, but I

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Speaker 2: think that you know the experience of being in those bedrooms.

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Speaker 2: You know, I travel a lot for my work. I'm

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Speaker 2: away from my family a lot this project. When I

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00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 2: was away, every time I came home I had never been.

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Speaker 2: I always loved coming home, but it was a different

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Speaker 2: level of getting to see my kids again and feeling

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Speaker 2: a sense of gratitude for for what I have. I

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Speaker 2: think that, you know, the our hope is that the

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Speaker 2: power of this film is in trying to capture what

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Speaker 2: is what it was like to be in those rooms,

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Speaker 2: what it was like for me and my team to

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Speaker 2: go into those bedrooms, because our hope is that everyone

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Speaker 2: will feel the weight of the law, will feel that absence,

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Speaker 2: and it will, you know, reconnect them with something that's

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Speaker 2: already within them. I mean, you think about how you

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Speaker 2: felt when you heard about Sandy Hook, or how you

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Speaker 2: felt when you heard about ubildy or how you felt

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Speaker 2: when you heard about Columbine, and I don't think most

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Speaker 2: of us feel that way anymore. When we hear about

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Speaker 2: a school shooting. We're not as shocked, we're not as outraged,

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00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,959
Speaker 2: we're not as engaged. We might not even read the article.

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Speaker 2: And what we're trying to do is to get people reconnected,

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00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 2: to feel that those feelings again that they felt back then,

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00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 2: because we our hope is that we can take that

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00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 2: empathy we might feel from watching this film and channel

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00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 2: it into change, into re engaging with issue, into having

400
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 2: hope again that maybe we can create change because where

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00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 2: we are right now is unacceptable.

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00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: Look, it's on Netflix, which means a lot of people

403
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 1: can see it. The question is are the right people

404
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: going to see it? You know, I would love to

405
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: see organized screenings of lawmakers, state houses as well as

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00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: the US Capital, because you want to know that the

407
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 1: people that have the power to do something right, we don't.

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00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: You know, not everybody agrees on what the something is,

409
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: but I think there's collective agreement we ought to do something.

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00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: And in order to motivate people to go find find

411
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 1: a maybe not the solution, but a mitigation strut whatever

412
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: it is to at least focus on it. They need

413
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: to feel this, right, They need to you know, It's like,

414
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,479
Speaker 1: how do you get everybody to watch this that maybe

415
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,719
Speaker 1: has decided. Look, I'm you know, it is not going

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Speaker 1: to change my view on whether, you know, we should

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00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: even manufacture weapons that can do this to the human body.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well you might have noticed this, but in the

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00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 2: film we never mentioned the word gun.

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00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's never said.

421
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: And that was by design because we did not want

422
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Speaker 2: people to have a reason to ever turn the film off.

423
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 2: We wanted to tell a story that was purely human,

424
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 2: that on the surface was a political that is about

425
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 2: the absence of these children. And and you know, I

426
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: think what we've been seeing is that people of all

427
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 2: kinds of opinions are watching and are affected by it.

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00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 2: I'll give you a couple of examples. One, we we

429
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: took the photographs from the film. So these are the

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00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: photos of the objects around the room, the little toys

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00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: and trinkets and things that are left behind that tell

432
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 2: the story of each child. And they're familiar. You know,

433
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 2: there are things that if you have kids, you're going

434
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 2: to see things that are in your kid's room. If

435
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: you don't have kids, You're going to see things that

436
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 2: probably were in your room growing up. And and we

437
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: took those photos and we created a photo exhibit which

438
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 2: is actually right now in Los Angeles and New York.

439
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 2: And we when when they were when they were installed.

440
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: They were installed by this guy who apparently was quite conservative,

441
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: and we found out later he you know, he wears

442
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 2: a T shirt that says guns aren't stupid, people are anyway.

443
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 2: This is the guy who's hanging the photographs of the

444
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 2: empty rooms, and halfway through the day of hanging them

445
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: up in the gallery, he started to weep and he

446
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: told his boss that he needed to go home. Anyway.

447
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 2: The next day, this guy comes back in goes up

448
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: to his boss and he says, I just need to

449
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: tell you something. I will never wear that T shirt again.

450
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 2: And we've heard stories like this where people who you know,

451
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: you couldn't imagine that they would change their mind. But

452
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: there's something about these photos and the stories of the

453
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 2: kids that like softens people's hearts. And we just feel hopeful,

454
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: you know. Steve Hartman got in an email from someone

455
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 2: who had been a Sandy Hook denier who saw the

456
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 2: film and watched it all the way through and he

457
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 2: said to Stevie, said, thank you for this film. I

458
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: didn't feel preached or lectured to, and therefore I was

459
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: able to watch it and it opened my mind.

460
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: You know what you just described there just triggered an

461
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: interesting exhibit that I remember that's extraordinarily powerful at Yad

462
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: Vashim in Israel, the Holocaust Museum there where fairly recently

463
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: in the Warsaw ghetto in Poland. You know, they have

464
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: a where they know a lot of Jews lived. When

465
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: there's development, there's an attempt you know, if they dig,

466
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: you know, and they find stuff they try to preserve,

467
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: and they ended up finding all sorts of just ordinary

468
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,479
Speaker 1: everyday stuff that belonged to you know, Jewish families who

469
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: were founded up. And the whole display is that it

470
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: is just the stuff. There's stuff that they lived when

471
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: they lived in Warsaw, and you know, there's toys, there's

472
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: you know, costume, jewelry, there's and it's and it you know,

473
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: it just it does bring a humanity to the to

474
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: the to the victory. You know, these are you know,

475
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: when it comes to the Holocaust, there's still some nameless

476
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: and faceless people, right and and there is something about

477
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: you know that that in some ways, having these exhibits,

478
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: you know, can can just humanize the situation. And it

479
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: sounds like what the responses you're sharing are the it's like,

480
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the victims became three dimensional figures, right.

481
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: I go back to I think what we were just

482
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: chatting about before, the before we were talking about just politicians, right.

483
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: And you know, as as a reporter, I'm eternally always

484
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: looking for the third dimension and political candidates. But in

485
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: some ways that's what we fail to do when we

486
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: talk about victims.

487
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something about someone said to us they watched

488
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 2: the film and they said, you know, you read a

489
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: headline and you think, oh, that's someone else's child, But

490
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: when you see the bedroom and you see all the

491
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 2: objects in there, it's easier to say that's my child,

492
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: or that could be my child. And I think that's

493
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 2: the difference, is that it suddenly becomes part of your

494
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 2: world and your life.

495
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: And has this been an issue you've tackled before in

496
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: documentary form or you've wanted to, or you've been looking

497
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: for a way to like, you know, what's a better

498
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: way to get people to focus on this issue?

499
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: Well, The first film I ever made, when a long

500
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 2: time ago, when I was twenty two, was about the

501
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: abandoned children of Romania, And so it was a different

502
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: kind of story about children. But at that time, in

503
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,719
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety, communism had just fallen, Chowshsku had fallen, and

504
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: it was discovered that there were over one hundred thousand

505
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: abandoned children in the country. And I went there and

506
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 2: I lived in the orphanages and documented the conditions of

507
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: the children, and there was some you know, obviously that

508
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 2: footage of seeing children tied up and treated like animals

509
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 2: had a real resonance with the people who watched the film,

510
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 2: and it led to the American adoption of thousands of

511
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: Romanian children when it was on public television. This film

512
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 2: is shared some of the DNA, but it's different, you know,

513
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: this film is about the absence of children. This film

514
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: is about the empty rooms and trying to feel the

515
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 2: presence of someone who's gone. And and there's something that

516
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 2: seems to be resonating with people about that. We can

517
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: all imagine that happening to us, and that creates a

518
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: kind of empathy, I think, which we hope will lead

519
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 2: to good things.

520
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: Did the how many of the parents volunteered sort of

521
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: like how what you know, I'm just curious if there

522
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: was you know, how many of them have decided to

523
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: you know, I'm focusing on this right. You know, different

524
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: parents do different things in response to this right. Some

525
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: get galvanized and want to you know, deal with one

526
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: policy issue. Others, you know, maybe it's about helping helping

527
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: other victims who go through this right, that sort of thing.

528
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: I'm just curious the various stu I'm sure you just

529
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: heard lots of stories of how how how parents chose

530
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: to grieve besides keeping the room, that's clearly I mean,

531
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: you know, it made me think we all memorialize people

532
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: we love in some form or another, and there's always

533
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: something we're like, I'm not letting that go, you know,

534
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: I'm not. You can't throw away that painting, honey, you

535
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: can't get rid of that. You know, this beat up coin.

536
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: You know, I've got this. I got this tattered two

537
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: dollar bill that my father gave to me. Was I

538
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: always got a two dollar bill when I lost a tooth.

539
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: Later I'd figure out it was the same two dollar bill.

540
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: You know, we didn't have a lot of money. But

541
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: it was but I you know, this two dollar bill

542
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: and it was just I carried into my wallet. He

543
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: died in eighty eight, I had it. I still have it.

544
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 2: You know.

545
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: It's like this two dollar bill and it's just a

546
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: little thing. So we you know, like I won't shave

547
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: because my father had a beard, and I just somehow

548
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: think I'm going to like lose his memory if I

549
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: somehow shave it. Irrational, of course, but I'm just curious

550
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: the various ways parents have chosen to channel their grief.

551
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, one one of the things that really

552
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 2: struck me is, you know, we we spend time with

553
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: four families, all of them lost a child, two at

554
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: the Saugas High School of Shooting in Santa Clarita, one

555
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 2: at the rob Elementary School in Uvalde, and one at

556
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: the Covenant School in Nashville. And what we saw is

557
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 2: that each family has has a different relationship with the room,

558
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: some going there all the time. Even it even varies

559
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: between two parents in the same family. You know, for example,

560
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 2: the Blackwells in Santa Clarita, Nancy the mom doesn't like

561
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 2: to go into the room at all, and Frank goes

562
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: in there every day. So it's they all have different

563
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: relationships with the rooms. And what is inspiring to me

564
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: about all the families I met is that all of

565
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,439
Speaker 2: them have different political points of view, but they've all

566
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 2: organized creative foundations in memory of their children, all four

567
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,399
Speaker 2: families to do different kinds of work that they deem

568
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 2: appropriate that they think is going to help change and

569
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 2: make things better. And I just have so much admiration

570
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 2: for them for channeling their grief into something that's helping

571
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: the world. And that's I've seen across the board with

572
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 2: most of the families that we've met. I want to

573
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 2: tell you one quick story about one of the rooms,

574
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 2: you know, talking about the relationships that families have with

575
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: the rooms. The mule Burgers Brian and Cindy, who lived

576
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: in Santa Clarita. Their daughter Gracie was killed six years

577
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: ago at the Saugus High School shooting, and right afterwards

578
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 2: they said to themselves, like, we need to leave here.

579
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: We don't want to be here anymore.

580
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: Perfectly rational. It would be a perfectly rational decision. I mean,

581
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: and widows regularly say, you know what, I can't. I'm

582
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: not living in the house anymore. I mean, you know,

583
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: just I get it right.

584
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: Yes, And in their case, the thing that kept them

585
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 2: from moving was they couldn't bring themselves to pack up

586
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 2: the bedroom the room. Yeah, And so you know, Brian

587
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: Muehlberger applied for jobs in different places and he'd get

588
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: the job offer and then when it came down to it,

589
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 2: he just couldn't. They couldn't do it, and they'd say no.

590
00:36:55,480 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: And this went on for over five years. And in

591
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: our film, Steve Hartman, after they collect the photographs of

592
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 2: the empty room, he gave each family a photo book

593
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 2: which contained all the best pictures of the child's bedroom.

594
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: So he gave them this album. He gave the mule

595
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 2: Burgers this album of Gracie's belonging all the photos that

596
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 2: were taken. And after receiving that book, and after watching

597
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: all the empty rooms the film, they finally said they

598
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 2: were ready to move and they packed up the room.

599
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 2: And they've since moved to a different state. And what

600
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 2: they've done is in their new home, they're creating a

601
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: garden in memory of Gracie instead of having the bedroom,

602
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 2: so they've kind of turned it into something else. But

603
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: they were able to move out of the home and

604
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 2: pack up the room.

605
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,920
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646
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 3: good I felt the next morning. Disable the pop right

647
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 3: out of bed, get a workout in, have a great

648
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 3: day of work. So pre alcoholic gets my stamp of approval.

649
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Speaker 1: So there you go. You ready to try it, Go

650
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: to zebiotics dot com slash chuck podcast right now. You'll

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00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,240
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657
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: use the code Chuck podcast. It had to be hard,

658
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 1: I imagine, almost not trying to get prescriptive right when

659
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: you're it is it is always, you know, the journalist

660
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: in you, I'm sure, was like, okay, but all right

661
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: now what? Right? Now? What? But in some ways we're

662
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: not ready for the prescriptive. I think that's the lesson

663
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: I'm taking away from the last forty years of how

664
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: we've handled these as a society. We're not, and so

665
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: we need more of We need more of these because

666
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 1: you need you need more people wanting prescriptive before you can.

667
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: Get to prescriptive. I think I think the prescriptive exists.

668
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: You know too, We just have it just will It's everywhere.

669
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 2: It's it's you know, it's on the news, it's in

670
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 2: and it's in most documentaries where there's a very strong

671
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 2: point of view that you know that it is essentially

672
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: alienates about half the people in the country and invites

673
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 2: the other half to feel.

674
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: Here you're trying to widen the lens, widen the mature

675
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 1: a little bit.

676
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 2: I just yeah, I just feel for me as a filmmaker,

677
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 2: I mean, in those films, in that news and journalism

678
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: is important. But for me as a filmmaker, what interests

679
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: me is how can you tell stories that are that

680
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 2: invite everybody in and allow them to share in potentially

681
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 2: feeling something and potentially experiencing a story together, even if

682
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 2: they have opposing points of view, that they could watch

683
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 2: a story together and all get something out of it.

684
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 2: And you know, in the case of all the empty rooms,

685
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 2: we hope that for people who agree that we need

686
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,959
Speaker 2: to do better with guns and gun safety, that they

687
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 2: that those people might feel re engaged with the issue.

688
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 2: They might feel like, okay, a little bit hopeful that

689
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 2: change can happen, That they might feel feelings they haven't

690
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 2: felt in a long time when they when they think

691
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 2: about school shootings and feel urged to do something. And

692
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 2: then the other half we I hope that they'll feel

693
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 2: something too deeply that makes them say, you know what,

694
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 2: we need to figure this out. We need to change

695
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,879
Speaker 2: something because what is happening is unacceptable and we need

696
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: to restart the conversation in a new place, which says

697
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 2: which just simply says like, we all agree that our

698
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 2: children need to be safe when they go to school,

699
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 2: and how do we build from that place and restart

700
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 2: the conversation in a constructive way that could lead to

701
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 2: positive change.

702
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: Did you ever contemplate making this feature length or was

703
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: it always a short in your mind?

704
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 2: We thought about it. We started as a short, and

705
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 2: then the first cut of the film came in at

706
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 2: like fifty five minutes, and is.

707
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: The cutoff for the oscars? Is it forty minutes?

708
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 2: Forty minutes? So anything under forty is a short and

709
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,760
Speaker 2: then anything and then I don't know what constitutes a feature,

710
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 2: but you know, usually they're like seventy to eighty minutes

711
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: at minimum minimum. So we were thinking, okay, fifty five,

712
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 2: maybe we add another fifteen, and we're we have a

713
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 2: short feature. But as we started editing more, we the

714
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 2: film got shorter and it got better, and we finally

715
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 2: got down to thirty four minutes, and we looked at

716
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 2: it and we said, you know, what if we what

717
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 2: if we cut out more of the talking? What did

718
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 2: we cut out more of the dialogue? And we started

719
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 2: just cutting and cutting and cutting, and eventually we had

720
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 2: cut six minutes of dialogue and talking out of the

721
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: film out of a thirty four minute film. But we

722
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 2: left the film at thirty four minutes, so suddenly we

723
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 2: had added six minutes of essentially silence to the film,

724
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: which allowed people to be in the rooms, feel the absence,

725
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: and and we found that that was much more effective

726
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,919
Speaker 2: because we weren't telling people what to think. We were

727
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 2: just letting them go in these rooms. And then you decide,

728
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 2: you decide what you want to feel, and you decide

729
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 2: at the end of the film what you want to do.

730
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: This is just such a reminder to me that, like

731
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: you just certain things you can't convey via the word. Yeah, right,

732
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: it did, it is it is, you know it is.

733
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,399
Speaker 1: And this is what documentary filmmaking over the last ten

734
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: years is just grown by leaps and bounds. Part of

735
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,240
Speaker 1: it is that distribution's never been easier, right, the buried

736
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: nentree has never been never been easier. It's like, I mean,

737
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: if you thirty years ago, where do you distribute this short? Right? Yeah?

738
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: I mean I'm just right. I mean just imagine, you know,

739
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: maybe you convinced the folks over at CBS Sunday morning,

740
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: hey let's do a thirty let me do a thirty

741
00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: minute piece, and of all programs that might light a

742
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: thirty minute piece, it's it's a Sunday morning, right. Yeah,

743
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: but that's difficult, right, that's a that's a one shot,

744
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: Like where would this have gone? I mean, this is

745
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the beauty of of of what

746
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: you know. It's funny. I don't think we all realized

747
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: how hungry people were for documentaries until we got a

748
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: platform like Netflix in our everyday life in Hulu and

749
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: all these places. Now that that that have made that

750
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 1: if you know, there's always been these great documentarians out

751
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: there ready to make these films. There just wasn't any

752
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: place to put them.

753
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's true. Thirty years ago it would

754
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 2: have been it would have played at festivals, maybe in

755
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 2: a couple of theaters before a feature, maybe otherose.

756
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: And it's always please. I grew up, we had the

757
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: one you know, every town had the one theater that played,

758
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: you know, that had the docs. Right, it was always

759
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,399
Speaker 1: the same theater that also had the foreign films, right,

760
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: you know, that was like the only place you could

761
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: get that stuff.

762
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 2: You know, that's right. But you're right, it wouldn't have

763
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: been seen by you know, this film has already been

764
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 2: seen by millions of people because of because of Netflix,

765
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 2: and you know they acquired the film at after the

766
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 2: tellur Ride Film Festival where we premiered.

767
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: And so hard to get funding for this, I mean

768
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: you said you used a lot of credit cards because

769
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 1: I can imagine you know, it's not a it. You

770
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 1: can't sit there and say, yeah, I definitely think we'll

771
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: be able to sell this. I mean, you know, you

772
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: don't know if the folks at Netflix or A or

773
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: at an Amazon or at a Hulu or a Peacock

774
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,280
Speaker 1: might say, yeah, I don't I don't know that people

775
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: we don't want, you know, we don't want something that

776
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: makes people shut the platform off. I mean, I hate

777
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: to be that cynical.

778
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's just say that there's not a lot of

779
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 2: ROI on short documentaries. We you know, films like this

780
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,879
Speaker 2: are made out of passion and out of care.

781
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: Well. I'm pretty involved with the folks at Docs d

782
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: DC Docs, and we used to do a film festival

783
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: to meet the Press Film Festival for five or six years,

784
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 1: and it was only for shorts. Yeah, and it was

785
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: a whole world of filmmakers that I was realizing were underserved.

786
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:17,720
Speaker 1: It's an underserved community with tremendous content.

787
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, all the people that all the people that

788
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 2: were part of this film, all the people that eventually

789
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: came on board and gave us funding or helped us

790
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 2: in different ways where they just cared about the issue.

791
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 2: None of them expected to make money. We didn't make money.

792
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 2: We lost money, but that's not why we made the film.

793
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 2: We made it because all of us want to see change.

794
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: Happen, and documentaries are like good investigative story books, right,

795
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: you know, only about one out of one hundred actually

796
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:51,919
Speaker 1: make money. They're not meant to make money, They're meant

797
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: to amplify a story, amplify an idea. On those fronts,

798
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: let me close with this. What's next for you?

799
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 2: Well, in the immediate future, we're about to you know,

800
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 2: the voting for the Academy Awards is happening started today,

801
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 2: started on February twenty sixth, got it, and it goes

802
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 2: to March fifth.

803
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 1: So we're kind of, oh, it's campaigning. Huh.

804
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: We've been campaigning because we you know, our hope is

805
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 2: that look, being nominated is amazing. We've gotten so much

806
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 2: attention and brought it to the subject of school shootings

807
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: and gun safety because of the nomination, and we're so

808
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 2: grateful for that, and also the families who shared their

809
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 2: stories of their children and their dream of making sure

810
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 2: the world knows about their kids is coming true. And

811
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 2: you know, if we whether or not we win the Oscar,

812
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 2: obviously winning the Oscar would amplify that and you know,

813
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 2: help with this issue. But we're really happy about where

814
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 2: we've gotten to and we're not going to stop working

815
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 2: on this. We are going to continue traveling the country

816
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 2: and the world with this film, and we're we and

817
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 2: we have this photo exhibit, which is going to continue

818
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 2: to travel to different cities around the country for the

819
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 2: next year or at least. Well.

820
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 1: The photo exhibit feels like an incredible sort of secondary

821
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 1: way to bring attention to this, not just to the

822
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: topic and the and the film itself.

823
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: And you can put it in public places, which is

824
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 2: what we've done. You know, it's currently it's in Sunset

825
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 2: Triangle Plaza in Silver Lake, and it's in Dumbo in Brooklyn,

826
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,479
Speaker 2: and you can just walk by it and check it out.

827
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 2: And you know, hundreds of people every day are walking

828
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: by and just taking it in. And we want to

829
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 2: keep doing that.

830
00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: No, I mean it's look, I don't know whether you

831
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: can get people to intentionally notice, but in some ways

832
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: you almost want to get the unintended, to get it

833
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: into unintentional public the public spaces where people stumbled into.

834
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

835
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Joshua was great and it's a what to me,

836
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: what's important about it as a as an artist? Is

837
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 1: it how important it was as a visual story? Right?

838
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 1: And that you know, I don't know if any judges

839
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: are listening, but I think that should be a huge criteria.

840
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 1: It's not just whether the topic is powerful, not whether

841
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: the words are powerful. But you're making up film, right,

842
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,879
Speaker 1: you know, is it visually powerful? And needless to say,

843
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 1: it's visually powerful.

844
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks Chuck for giving me the chance to

845
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 2: talk about it.

846
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 1: And sure, yeah, absolutely, all right, maybe i'll see in

847
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: the campaign trail. You've done with campaigns?

848
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:48,280
Speaker 2: Huh?

849
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 1: Are you done with campaigns? Are you done covering political campaigns?

850
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 2: Do you know what? Did I tell you? I made

851
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 2: a film called Taking on the Kennedys. Do you know

852
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 2: about that one?

853
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: Oh? Which one was that? It was a familiar It was.

854
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 2: About Patrick Kennedy's campaign, his first US congressional campaign in

855
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 2: Rhode Island.

856
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: Oh, I remember this in the from the Other Right.

857
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 2: For he I followed his opponent, Kevin Vigilante, who was

858
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 2: a Republican. And uh, it was a very kind of

859
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: funny and maddening story. Yeah, and it was on PBS.

860
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 1: It was very it was I do now remember this.

861
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,720
Speaker 1: It was. It wasn't the most flattering.

862
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 2: Portrait, probably not back in the day, and I'm a Democrat,

863
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 2: but back in the day it was you know, films

864
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 2: like that really got seen. You know, when there were

865
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 2: fewer channels and and so it was it was very popular.

866
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: But right, well that was that was basically actually when

867
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: we were talking about where would a film like this be,

868
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: maybe p PBS was the was the the that was

869
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,359
Speaker 1: the home run. Right, if you've got a PBS pick up,

870
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: you're like great at least.

871
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 2: And a lot of people watched it there too, right, yeah,

872
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 2: Right now it's not as much. There's it's harder to

873
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 2: get audiences anywhere. They're much more, you know, right, who.

874
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: Knows how this gets into people's algorithms, right, however that

875
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: works exactly these days? Well, Joshua, good luck with the campaign.

876
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, with the campaigning, it's it's a

877
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: it's a I know that's a process.

878
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:30,359
Speaker 2: And and are you still involved with DC docs? Uh?

879
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, whenever I can be. I mean, you know, whether

880
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: it's hope, you know, putting together program helping with their programming,

881
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: or amplifying their docs and all of that. Jamie sure

882
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: is you know Jamie, I know Sky Sidney Okay, Sky's

883
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: your partner.

884
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we actually I was talking with Sky the

885
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 2: other day, so I do a I interview my mom

886
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 2: on CBS Sunday morning, and we're on there regularly where

887
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 2: I just talk to her about her life and she

888
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 2: lives in DC and you know, what's going on in

889
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 2: her life and her opinions on things. And we've been

890
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 2: on for thirteen years. Anyway, she recently moved back to

891
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 2: d C. And so I was talking with Sky at

892
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 2: sun Dance about about this, and we decided we're going

893
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 2: to try to have my mom be the person who

894
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 2: tells you to turn off your cell phones and other

895
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 2: things for the festival. So we're going. So we're getting

896
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 2: involved with DC docs.

897
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 1: Well, then I look forward to seeing you in whatever

898
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 1: way that Jamie recruits me to get involved. Great and

899
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 1: at a minimum, I'd like to use my podcast to

900
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: amplify And I'm a you know, I probably probably at

901
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: least once a month have some documentary filmmaker.

902
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 2: On, So grateful for that. And when when do you

903
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 2: think you're running this?

904
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 1: We'll drop it next week, Okay, com during voting, don't worry.

905
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 2: Sooner the better I know.

906
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: I got you. We just did a feature length. You're

907
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: not in competition, but we just had I'm trying to

908
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: I'm like blanking in the title of the of the film.

909
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 2: But Alabama solution.

910
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 1: No no, no, no about that used body camera footage.

911
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 2: Perfect neighbor, yes, perfect neighbor.

912
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, Gita, I agree.

913
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 2: I was with her last night. We're all we're all

914
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 2: going to the same part.

915
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: You're on the same circuit. Yeah no, no no, and uh

916
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: yeah you're not. Don't worry. You're in two different categories.

917
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 1: We are ye. Also you know we I am so

918
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,839
Speaker 1: the check podcast is promoting GETA and We've got We've

919
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: got people were promoting in both categories.

920
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 2: Here Joe Love, We're we're I'm having lunch with her

921
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 2: today too, so I'll.

922
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: Say hi, please do okay, thanks a lot

923
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 2: Thanks Big kar