WEBVTT - Mala Gaonkar

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<v Speaker 1>In the early days of our friendship. I was amazed

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<v Speaker 1>by Mala Guancar, then founding partner of Lumpine Capital. How

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<v Speaker 1>could this high achieving woman be so uniquely calm, thoughtful

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<v Speaker 1>and serene. We went to dinner in her home in

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<v Speaker 1>notting Hill. Entering this traditional London house, we were surrounded

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<v Speaker 1>by the best of brave and beautiful contemporary art and furniture.

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<v Speaker 1>When we went down to dinner, there she was. Malla

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<v Speaker 1>in the kitchen apron on finishing the curries, the rice,

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<v Speaker 1>the vegetables and the desserts she had cooked for us.

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<v Speaker 1>All I asked her over dinner what she was doing.

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<v Speaker 1>She spoke about her work in public health at Harvard

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<v Speaker 1>and with Atual guan Day, a book of short stories

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<v Speaker 1>she had just published, the immersive theater piece she was

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<v Speaker 1>doing with David Byrne, and a high risk skiing adventure

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<v Speaker 1>she'd just come back from with her two sons. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>ten years later, she is founder of Circo Capital, the

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<v Speaker 1>largest ever fund run by a woman. Okay, so, Mala,

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<v Speaker 1>do you chose of all the recipes, all our books,

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<v Speaker 1>pistachia cake And you made it sound as if like,

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<v Speaker 1>don't you know that I want to do pistasia cake,

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<v Speaker 1>So here we go with pistachia cake, red piboa.

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<v Speaker 2>So yes, pistachio cake, my very favorite. Must have made

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<v Speaker 2>it abou about one hundred times two hundred and seventy

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<v Speaker 2>grams of unsalted butter, one lemon, one vanilla pod, one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred grams of blanched almonds, one hundred and twenty grams

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<v Speaker 2>of pistachios, two hundred and fifty grams of castor sugar,

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<v Speaker 2>four eggs organic, forty grams plain flour, one lemon, sixty

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<v Speaker 2>grams of pistachios, fifty grams of castor sugar. Preheat the

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<v Speaker 2>oven to one hundred and fifty degrees centigrade. Line a

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<v Speaker 2>loaf tin and grease with twenty grams of the butter.

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<v Speaker 2>Soften the remaining butter, Grate the lemon peel, split the

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<v Speaker 2>vanilla pod and scrape the seeds. Grind the almonds and

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<v Speaker 2>pistachios together. Beat the butter and the sugar until light

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<v Speaker 2>and the eggs one at a time. Add the zest

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<v Speaker 2>and vanilla seeds, fold in the nuts and sive in

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<v Speaker 2>the flour. Spoon the mixture into the tin and bake

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<v Speaker 2>for forty five minutes. The cake is ready when a

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<v Speaker 2>spirit comes out clean. Leave to cool in the tin

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<v Speaker 2>for the topping. Grate the lemon, peel and squeeze the juice.

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<v Speaker 2>Have the pistachios. Mix the lemon juice with the sugar,

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<v Speaker 2>Boil until thick. Then add the zest. Stir in the pistachios,

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<v Speaker 2>and pour over the cake. Delicious for breakfast with a coffee,

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<v Speaker 2>or as a dessert with crimp fresh or anytime.

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<v Speaker 1>That made me want to have it. But I was

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<v Speaker 1>interested because I always think of you with the incredible

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<v Speaker 1>chutneese and with the curries and the food that you made,

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<v Speaker 1>and you chose a cake. Id you like to bake?

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<v Speaker 1>I just feel like.

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<v Speaker 2>To be a really good pastry chef, certainly in the

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<v Speaker 2>Western tradition, you have to. It's about precision, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>terrible with precisions. Oh kind of person, say a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of sour, a little bit sweet.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm terrible at cakes.

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<v Speaker 2>And I felt that this was one of the few

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<v Speaker 2>recipes I could actually make. And there I was sort of,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, working mom to young boys with insatia of

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<v Speaker 2>appetites that seemed for pretty much anything, and this just

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<v Speaker 2>seemed just wonderful. It was just just a beautiful, lovely cake.

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<v Speaker 2>I must admit, though, Ruthie, I did. I did shift

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<v Speaker 2>it around. A great recipe is something that you can

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<v Speaker 2>build off right like like like any creative, beautiful thing.

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<v Speaker 2>And so what I did was, I you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>did grow up in South India, so I kind of

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<v Speaker 2>added let's see what did I did all kinds of

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<v Speaker 2>things that I kept the vanilla. I added loads of clothes,

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<v Speaker 2>clothes and cinnamon and cardamom.

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<v Speaker 1>Crown so you crown them together.

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<v Speaker 2>I pounded all of those up and put them in

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<v Speaker 2>the cake. I put them in the cake. I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>put the topping. It's a bit of a rush, but

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<v Speaker 2>that and that just you know, there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>you know this probably but you know, cinnamon can replace

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<v Speaker 2>and did in medieval times.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, sure, so that's what I did.

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<v Speaker 1>I would say the recipe is half poetry and half

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<v Speaker 1>science as well. Yes, you know, so we kind of

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you taste, the precision is really important. But

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<v Speaker 1>I'm interested that you had the clothes and the climbs,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'd like to try it. But then did you

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<v Speaker 1>still at the pistaches at the end?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, I just put the pistache at the top.

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<v Speaker 3>I left out the lemon and the sugar.

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<v Speaker 1>You have cake for breakfast.

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<v Speaker 3>I have not a cake for breakfast in a.

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<v Speaker 1>Long time Italian. You know, Italians have their cakes in

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<v Speaker 1>the morning, they have their cakes for breakfast, They have

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<v Speaker 1>their ice creams on the street, and then they have

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<v Speaker 1>a coffee for dessert. You know, in this presso so

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<v Speaker 1>there's always a cake, a dry cake to have for breakfast. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>No, in South India it's really more just a little

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<v Speaker 2>sombar of sort of lentils or russum of lentils and

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<v Speaker 2>spices and tomatoes and then some sort of steamed rister

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<v Speaker 2>lentil cake like an Italy or maybe it does.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's talk about that. Your eyes light up when

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<v Speaker 1>you start talking about clothes and cardonmen and lentils for

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<v Speaker 1>breakfast in South India. Tell me about this India think.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so my story is pretty straightforward in some ways

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<v Speaker 2>for you know, that period of sort of American Indian immigrants.

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<v Speaker 2>So soon as maybe people don't know this, as soon

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<v Speaker 2>as the Civil Rights Act was passed, there was also

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<v Speaker 2>change in the immigracial laws of people from being around

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<v Speaker 2>place of origin and the American and the restrictions in

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<v Speaker 2>place of origin, and so it was bailed, as you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and so as soon as that was lifted, my parents

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<v Speaker 2>were one of the first to come over to the

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<v Speaker 2>US become graduate students, became academics.

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<v Speaker 1>And what do you think that was like for them?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that was?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>I think if you and I Ruthie were go to Mars,

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<v Speaker 2>it would probably be less of the leap than it

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<v Speaker 2>was for them. So they both came on scholarships from

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<v Speaker 2>sort of rural really semi rural India, both in the sciences,

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<v Speaker 2>so my father in the mathematical sort of area and

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<v Speaker 2>my mother in molecular biology. So I think that was

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<v Speaker 2>a huge leap for them. And I think I'm consistently

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<v Speaker 2>sort of astonished by their bravery and the sort of

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<v Speaker 2>almost gallantry with which it sort of went out with

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<v Speaker 2>open curiosity to the world. And it's something I wish

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<v Speaker 2>I think we have a lot of in the world,

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<v Speaker 2>and I would love to see us all tap into.

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<v Speaker 3>That a bit more because it's only good for everyone.

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<v Speaker 2>And so yeah, no, I think it was something they

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<v Speaker 2>did with great gusto and we're very happy, but they're

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<v Speaker 2>also very happy to go back. And shortly after my

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<v Speaker 2>sister was born, when I was about six, we moved

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<v Speaker 2>back to India.

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<v Speaker 3>They wanted to go back.

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<v Speaker 1>Did they meet and India and come together, actually have

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<v Speaker 1>an arranged marriage.

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<v Speaker 2>They met in India, moved over here together, and then

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<v Speaker 2>we moved back. As I said, when I was six

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<v Speaker 2>or so, we moved to Bangalore. And that's where they

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<v Speaker 2>came from. They came from just south of Goa. So

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<v Speaker 2>they come from the coast, the Molivard coast, which is

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<v Speaker 2>a haven up all of his spice.

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<v Speaker 3>Growing as as you might know. And so that's very much, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>very much.

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<v Speaker 2>And it come from a family of sort of academic

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<v Speaker 2>social workers. I'm really the black sheep of the family,

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<v Speaker 2>someone went into the vulgar world of commerce and never

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<v Speaker 2>got a PhD. So that's where I grew up in Bangalore.

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<v Speaker 2>That's very much part of my life until especially until

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<v Speaker 2>seventeen when I came back to came to the US

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<v Speaker 2>and then went off to school.

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<v Speaker 1>And what was home life like? Did your mother work

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<v Speaker 1>and your father worked?

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<v Speaker 3>Did you both of my parents worked?

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<v Speaker 2>I I'd say neither one of them was really sort

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<v Speaker 2>of you know, affiliated with a stove in any particularly

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<v Speaker 2>distinguished way.

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<v Speaker 3>But we got along.

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<v Speaker 2>My grandmother was maternal grandmother in particularly a great cook,

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<v Speaker 2>and so she you know, showed me if she always

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<v Speaker 2>had something pickling. Yeah, it seemed like anything could be pickled.

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<v Speaker 2>I think at one point she even pickled banana skins,

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<v Speaker 2>believe it or.

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<v Speaker 1>Not, skins.

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<v Speaker 2>Interesting wasn't successful, but she she tried. She pickled high

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<v Speaker 2>biscus flowers, She pickled gooseberries.

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<v Speaker 1>Did your grandmother live near you? Was she in the house.

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<v Speaker 3>She didn't.

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<v Speaker 2>We lived in Bangalore. She lived in the coast, but

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<v Speaker 2>she would come visit.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you remember the meals we had around the table

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<v Speaker 1>in Bangalore when you were between six and seventeen? Did

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<v Speaker 1>you go to school? Come home?

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<v Speaker 2>Sweet dad? So in India there's this whole did you

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<v Speaker 2>take your little tiffin carrier as they call it, with

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<v Speaker 2>these stack little stainless steel boxes, and they all have

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<v Speaker 2>it's a whole sort of bento box ritual to it,

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<v Speaker 2>and so all these Arabasic traditions around how many sours

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<v Speaker 2>and how many sweets and everything sort of architected. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I took my little tip in mind was

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<v Speaker 2>a bit less polished, but I take my little lunch

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<v Speaker 2>box to school, and I remember that the tastes of

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<v Speaker 2>sort of yogurt and rice and pickles.

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<v Speaker 1>And what did you have for breakfast?

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<v Speaker 3>Usually just a.

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<v Speaker 2>Very simple you know, like a dosa and some lentils

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<v Speaker 2>or something like that. And then you'd come home to

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<v Speaker 2>very simple supper. So it was it wasn't anything primarily vegetarian, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So it was that's but I have it was delicious

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<v Speaker 2>because the food was very fresh and you know this routie,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what that's all about.

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<v Speaker 3>And so going to the vegetables bizarre.

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<v Speaker 1>And the markets with the markets like in India, I've

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<v Speaker 1>never been to a market.

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<v Speaker 3>The markets were overwhelming.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean everything is that, but you had big piles

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<v Speaker 2>of just endless varieties of chili's or endless rides of greens.

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<v Speaker 2>I was recently in Mexico and the markets they're very

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<v Speaker 2>much reminded me of of India. And you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>know what to do, and you know to you learn

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<v Speaker 2>how to buy things. It's nothing as shrink wrapped. You

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<v Speaker 2>can choose, right, so you think you snap the m

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<v Speaker 2>of the gooseber, you know what to look for. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's that I missed that very much. There was sort

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<v Speaker 2>of sensuality and shopping that.

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<v Speaker 1>Sometimes did you go with your mother or your grandmother, or.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd go with my grandmother or you know, our the

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<v Speaker 2>lady who helped out at the house, And yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you love food? Even then, I was thinking of

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<v Speaker 1>you such a lover of food. And then we talk

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<v Speaker 1>about food, you'd tell you make food.

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<v Speaker 4>Food.

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<v Speaker 1>I did you know as a.

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<v Speaker 2>Child that you yes, yes, I still remember there was

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<v Speaker 2>a season for the when the Kashmiri apple juice season

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<v Speaker 2>would arrive and that would be actually affordable, and so

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I remember things like that, like I have

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<v Speaker 2>a very strong Pristian memory for these little flavors and smells.

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<v Speaker 3>And Indian street food as well.

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<v Speaker 2>And Indian street food is really just a spectacular celebration

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<v Speaker 2>I think of humanity.

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<v Speaker 3>It's just great.

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<v Speaker 1>Did your parents take you to restaurants in Bangalore?

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<v Speaker 2>Was that something at that time the eighties? I'd say

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<v Speaker 2>it was rare. I mean, Indian food was very much

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<v Speaker 2>about home cooking, and I think you'll probably have heard

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<v Speaker 2>that from others. It's less about a restaurant. I think

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<v Speaker 2>that fine dining idea is something that's developed more recently,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the growing prosperity of India and a rising

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<v Speaker 2>middle class, and I think it's fantastic. I mean, they're

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<v Speaker 2>Indian cooks and chefs and doing amazing things in India

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<v Speaker 2>right now. But that was less of the story, at

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<v Speaker 2>least of my specific fish and bangled. Did you have

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<v Speaker 2>very good fish? Yeah, there was really good fish. Less

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<v Speaker 2>so meat, but more it was more around fresh fish,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly in the coast, the Mall Park Costhen. I went

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<v Speaker 2>to visit my grandmother there.

0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:28.480
<v Speaker 1>That was did you cook with her grandmother or your mother?

0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.280
<v Speaker 2>I did. She actually had an open fire stove, so

0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.439
<v Speaker 2>it was a very you know, it was really wonderful.

0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.800
<v Speaker 2>This happened very kind of like what you have. Actually, yeah,

0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.160
<v Speaker 2>it was a smaller and uh yeah. She would cook

0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.400
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of seafood on there and all the pickles

0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.680
<v Speaker 2>and the chutneys I mentioned. So, no, it was wonderful.

0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:44.800
<v Speaker 1>So you participate.

0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:47.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, all was great, but then we had to move back.

0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:48.240
<v Speaker 1>The cook of the family.

0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:50.200
<v Speaker 3>I didn't really cook in childhood as much.

0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.319
<v Speaker 2>It's more something I observed, and it's really something that

0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:54.559
<v Speaker 2>started once I went to university.

0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:56.719
<v Speaker 1>When you went back to university, did you all go

0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:58.960
<v Speaker 1>or was it just you you went by yourself.

0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:03.320
<v Speaker 2>I went by myself. I was at Harvard and wasn't

0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:05.800
<v Speaker 2>much opportunity for cooking there, But you know, that was

0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.480
<v Speaker 2>more just taking whatever it was offered to you in

0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.680
<v Speaker 2>the dying hall. Was that a kind of showing adding hot.

0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:13.240
<v Speaker 3>Sauce to it? Yeah?

0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:15.840
<v Speaker 1>Was that shocking those I had a big adjustment going

0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:20.640
<v Speaker 1>from a home it was creating incredible food and markets

0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:24.080
<v Speaker 1>and smells and memories in your grandmother to Harvard where

0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.640
<v Speaker 1>you lived in a dorm and food was it was.

0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:29.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think the arc after that was though,

0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:31.800
<v Speaker 2>very much about I mean, you're so overwhelmed sort of

0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:33.920
<v Speaker 2>the intellectual curiosity of that time, right, you don't think

0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.439
<v Speaker 2>about food as much? Are You're absorbing so much new

0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.400
<v Speaker 2>in terms of relationships and friendships and ideas and people.

0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.600
<v Speaker 2>And I was just you know, becoming a young woman

0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.240
<v Speaker 2>with all the sort of uncertainties, and I mean it

0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:46.760
<v Speaker 2>was it was an interesting time.

0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:50.040
<v Speaker 3>It's almost like three failures in a funeral, it was like.

0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.760
<v Speaker 2>And literally the arc of that until now was very

0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:57.560
<v Speaker 2>much around you know, failing, failing better learning and then

0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.760
<v Speaker 2>iterating from there in terms of just you know, in life,

0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:03.840
<v Speaker 2>it's going a little bit away from its food into philosophy.

0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:07.079
<v Speaker 2>But I do think it's very important to make mistakes

0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:09.400
<v Speaker 2>and learn and fail a bit in life, because they're

0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:14.479
<v Speaker 2>all very intertwined. And I differentiate between failures of hubris

0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.320
<v Speaker 2>and failures of curiosity, and I think failures of curiosity

0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.440
<v Speaker 2>where you're just open mindly trying to try something and

0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.520
<v Speaker 2>maybe you mess it up, I think those are perfectly fine.

0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:24.200
<v Speaker 2>I think that's how you learn and you move on

0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:26.160
<v Speaker 2>as long as you're aware of it. And that's what

0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.200
<v Speaker 2>I meant by the three failures in a funeral in

0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:31.800
<v Speaker 2>the sense that I think my first class at Harvard

0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.800
<v Speaker 2>is one I actually did very poorly on, but it

0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:36.800
<v Speaker 2>was also the class that was most impactful. And it

0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.360
<v Speaker 2>was a class that the great philosopher John Rawls taught,

0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:45.520
<v Speaker 2>and it was on developing the ideal society. So what

0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:47.280
<v Speaker 2>we all had to do as a class was get

0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:51.199
<v Speaker 2>together and decide what would the ideal society be if

0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.520
<v Speaker 2>you didn't know anything about your status in that world,

0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:55.560
<v Speaker 2>if you didn't know what your race would be, your gender,

0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:58.880
<v Speaker 2>what you'd be endowed with in terms of talents or wealth,

0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.600
<v Speaker 2>what kind of society you create, and ultimately what we

0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.600
<v Speaker 2>decided is we don't know what we would be. We'd

0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:06.880
<v Speaker 2>want a society where the worst person off would be

0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.080
<v Speaker 2>not just okay, but actually flourish. We could well be

0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.480
<v Speaker 2>that person. It wasn't just about getting, you know, sort

0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.280
<v Speaker 2>of a pittance, and that really transformed I had a

0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:17.439
<v Speaker 2>very utilitary and very rational view of the world, and

0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:18.880
<v Speaker 2>it was my way of sort of coping, I think

0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.520
<v Speaker 2>also growing up in a very poor country. But that

0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.160
<v Speaker 2>really made sense to me. Finally, so even though the

0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:28.319
<v Speaker 2>class technically in terms of my transcript was a failure,

0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:30.400
<v Speaker 2>I'd argue in terms of just what it did to

0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:34.000
<v Speaker 2>my life and my mindset and what I did eventually

0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.200
<v Speaker 2>later trying to do a bit of good in the

0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.040
<v Speaker 2>world was transformative.

0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:40.320
<v Speaker 3>So that was probably failure number one.

0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.679
<v Speaker 2>I think then that led to I've met the people

0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.240
<v Speaker 2>I met in that class, led them to my first job, actually,

0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:51.080
<v Speaker 2>which I ended up getting fired from pretty quickly. Failure

0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:55.600
<v Speaker 2>number two. It's going to be a really exciting podcast.

0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:57.120
<v Speaker 3>Let's us go into it.

0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:59.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, I'm just thinking about it in a way.

0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.440
<v Speaker 2>That kind of is how it laid out, and that

0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.920
<v Speaker 2>was working for working in Russia during the privatization program

0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:09.280
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety one in Moscow. In Moscow and I

0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.960
<v Speaker 2>there briefly and then later in Mongolia, and the World

0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.520
<v Speaker 2>Bank really was I was really working for them through

0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.520
<v Speaker 2>Jeffrey Sachs, a professor at the time at Harvard. And

0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.640
<v Speaker 2>what was really interesting was that we went there with

0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:24.560
<v Speaker 2>such high hopes. And it's very relevant to the new

0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.760
<v Speaker 2>headlines we're saying nineteen ninety one. So August of nineteen

0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:29.840
<v Speaker 2>ninety one is actually when the clup happened in Moscow,

0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.720
<v Speaker 2>the eltson and then December of that year with the

0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Soviet unency ceased to exist. It all happened very quickly

0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:40.120
<v Speaker 2>and are there, Yeah, we're there, And that was something

0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:41.920
<v Speaker 2>we went in with high hopes and then just realized

0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:47.000
<v Speaker 2>this is this is probably not going to work. And

0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:51.080
<v Speaker 2>ultimately that's right right away. I don't think I got

0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:52.920
<v Speaker 2>that right away. Actually I might stort of give myself

0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:54.680
<v Speaker 2>more credit than I deserve. But that's something I think

0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 2>now looking back, was fairly clear, and that's something we

0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:59.200
<v Speaker 2>should have we should have addressed as a as a

0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:03.120
<v Speaker 2>broader policy map, not obviously as it twenty one year

0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.520
<v Speaker 2>old who was there for their first job, but that

0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:07.880
<v Speaker 2>then I ended up in Mongolia working there as well.

0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.720
<v Speaker 2>But I look back on that period of just such high, bigger,

0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:13.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, much obviously bigger issue than just me and

0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.320
<v Speaker 2>my journey. Was just this whole issue of how again

0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.480
<v Speaker 2>failures of hubris. I would argue, where we think we

0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:20.320
<v Speaker 2>have all the answers, but we're not listening to the

0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.560
<v Speaker 2>local community, and you know we can, we can as

0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.280
<v Speaker 2>a result of that mess up. And my first big

0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:32.960
<v Speaker 2>philanthropic project was really around sanitation and subsidized toilets for

0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, poorer populations across.

0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.160
<v Speaker 1>South Asia, South Asia.

0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.920
<v Speaker 2>That was my first step or you know, first worked

0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.640
<v Speaker 2>my first fund that was working really well, and wanted

0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:45.920
<v Speaker 2>to get back right away. I didn't want to sit

0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.280
<v Speaker 2>around and wait until I was some sort of elderly person.

0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:51.800
<v Speaker 2>And when I did that, I thought, oh, this is

0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:53.280
<v Speaker 2>going to be great. We got all the answers. This

0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.200
<v Speaker 2>is going to be about you know, better sanitation for all.

0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.600
<v Speaker 2>And you know that didn't really work either. It was

0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:00.840
<v Speaker 2>a complete I think when we visited some of these

0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:02.800
<v Speaker 2>toilets that we'd subsidize, most of them were being used

0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:07.480
<v Speaker 2>as chicken coops. Why that one was around, you know,

0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:09.520
<v Speaker 2>it might be lack of plumbing, and the other was

0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:12.560
<v Speaker 2>maybe around just cultural habits and what was appropriate what

0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:17.240
<v Speaker 2>wasn't appropriate. So longer story for maybe a different podcast,

0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.080
<v Speaker 2>but the bottom line is that was sort of another

0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.280
<v Speaker 2>failure at argue, more of curiosity and hope, but also

0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:26.440
<v Speaker 2>a bit of hubris there where I just stepped back

0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:27.840
<v Speaker 2>and realized, Okay, there's it's.

0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:29.640
<v Speaker 3>Important now to really listen.

0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.120
<v Speaker 2>And that leads me, sadly, I think, in some ways

0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:34.960
<v Speaker 2>to the funeral, which is Paul Farmer, whom I think

0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 2>you know as well, really dear friend and a great

0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.880
<v Speaker 2>innovator in terms of how public health could be delivered,

0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.760
<v Speaker 2>and he and I work together pretty extensively on a

0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.040
<v Speaker 2>variety of projects that he did with many other plan

0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:48.760
<v Speaker 2>He was a real mentor to me in terms of

0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.760
<v Speaker 2>really listening to the community, understanding grounds up.

0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:53.280
<v Speaker 3>And so that's what I do, and that's what I do.

0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:55.560
<v Speaker 2>Whether I do it now is someone learning to cook,

0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.200
<v Speaker 2>or someone learning to gather friends, or someone learning to

0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:03.160
<v Speaker 2>be a better investor or philanthropists, that's very much about

0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.520
<v Speaker 2>listening to what's happening around the ground and observing rather

0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:07.280
<v Speaker 2>than as you make it.

0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, do you remember the food in Moscow?

0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:16.520
<v Speaker 5>That you ate going, Oh, yes, food, absolutely, there wasn't

0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.239
<v Speaker 5>much deep but there was a good borsch every now

0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:22.000
<v Speaker 5>and then there was you know, a couple of solid dumplings,

0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:23.119
<v Speaker 5>very solid dumplings.

0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:24.960
<v Speaker 3>Mongolia was great.

0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.879
<v Speaker 2>That's where I had my first fermented mare's milk, which

0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:31.400
<v Speaker 2>it is like sour milk, that's what you would expect.

0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:33.840
<v Speaker 2>And then there was a lot of sort of lamb,

0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.040
<v Speaker 2>mutt and gristle and that was sort of it.

0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:37.280
<v Speaker 3>That was pretty grim.

0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:38.959
<v Speaker 1>Was it an urban context? You win?

0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:39.280
<v Speaker 4>It was.

0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:42.439
<v Speaker 2>There was about we're traveling around a lot, and it's

0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:44.720
<v Speaker 2>a large at that time certainly it was largely still

0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.840
<v Speaker 2>it's largely sort of rural nomadic society.

0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:49.720
<v Speaker 1>And have you been back to Russia since?

0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.840
<v Speaker 3>I haven't been back to Mongolia, but back to Russia.

0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.480
<v Speaker 1>And big change.

0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:59.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, caviar galor you can afford it, lots of fancy stuff.

0:17:59.040 --> 0:17:59.159
<v Speaker 6>Now.

0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we wanted I think nineteen which was chairman of

0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:05.200
<v Speaker 1>the take, and we were trying to get an exchange

0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:09.359
<v Speaker 1>with the Hermitage for the and the Pushkin for they

0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.240
<v Speaker 1>have great matisas and they were at the Hermitage. We

0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.600
<v Speaker 1>were trying to exchange turners for a show and it was,

0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:17.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, I went wanting to love it, but it is.

0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.000
<v Speaker 1>It was complex, and certainly for us. I haven't been

0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.119
<v Speaker 1>back since then, so I've missed the whole wealth and

0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:27.960
<v Speaker 1>the restaurants and everything else. It's a good cuisine, that

0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:38.920
<v Speaker 1>wasn't it. Sean and I are here and we're talking

0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.440
<v Speaker 1>about that pistachio cake. I think it's a very delicious cake.

0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.760
<v Speaker 1>It's a cake that you can have any time of

0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.080
<v Speaker 1>day in that Italian way. But there's something about this cake,

0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:50.760
<v Speaker 1>and of course it's the pistachoes, which I always associate

0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:54.360
<v Speaker 1>with Lebanon, which feels almost Middle Eastern to me. The

0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:58.920
<v Speaker 1>green color, the nuts and the almonds. It just always

0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.400
<v Speaker 1>feels like something that you might not have in Italy,

0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.280
<v Speaker 1>but you might have as part of the meal you

0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.320
<v Speaker 1>were having it from Beirroot, for instance. Where do you

0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:08.600
<v Speaker 1>think about this cake?

0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:13.640
<v Speaker 4>It it's definitely a breakfast cake in my house. It's

0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:18.320
<v Speaker 4>really yummy, but it's tricky to make in volume. We

0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:22.320
<v Speaker 4>often have problems with it being oily because the nuts

0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:23.280
<v Speaker 4>can be mean.

0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.760
<v Speaker 1>I guess nuts of oily, aren't they. It isn't hard

0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:27.320
<v Speaker 1>to make that. You have to get it right.

0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:31.480
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's all in the fineness of the grinding of

0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:36.040
<v Speaker 4>the almonds and the pistachios, and actually sometimes we put

0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:38.320
<v Speaker 4>a bit of flour. There's some of their flour through

0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:40.159
<v Speaker 4>the nuts when it gets folded in to sort of

0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:44.080
<v Speaker 4>hold the nuts stopping being to sort of mop up

0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:45.600
<v Speaker 4>some of the kind of oils.

0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:50.320
<v Speaker 1>I love this cake and I cannot remember how we

0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.959
<v Speaker 1>came up. I have a very strong recollection of just

0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:56.399
<v Speaker 1>making it over and over and over again till we

0:19:56.440 --> 0:20:04.320
<v Speaker 1>get it right. Did you know The River Cafe has

0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.760
<v Speaker 1>a shop. It's full of our favorite foods and designs.

0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.760
<v Speaker 1>We have cookbooks, linen napkins, kitchen were, tote bags with

0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.880
<v Speaker 1>our signatures, glasses from Venice, chocolates from Terin. You can

0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.119
<v Speaker 1>find us right next door to the River Cafe in

0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:29.760
<v Speaker 1>London or online at Shopthrivercafe dot co dot uk. So

0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.399
<v Speaker 1>we're sitting here in the River Cafe. It's about seven

0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:35.800
<v Speaker 1>thirty and we're about to go and have dinner. And

0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:38.359
<v Speaker 1>of course I chose the quietest place in the whole

0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:41.480
<v Speaker 1>of Thames Wharf to have a studio, except forgetting that.

0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:44.760
<v Speaker 1>Some nights we have Sylvia's which is downstairs our private

0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:47.879
<v Speaker 1>dining room and so the noise in the background is

0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:53.040
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people, probably fifty having celebrating something in

0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.240
<v Speaker 1>Sylvia's having a drink, So that's the background noise. So

0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:01.520
<v Speaker 1>I hope you can all hear us for cooking. You've

0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.680
<v Speaker 1>involved in India with your grandmother and your your mother

0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:08.760
<v Speaker 1>a bit, with Harvard, really not at all, and then Russia,

0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:11.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, you were working and eating a bit. When

0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:16.639
<v Speaker 1>did you then decide how important cooking and food was

0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.000
<v Speaker 1>to you or was it a decision? Did it happen?

0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.160
<v Speaker 2>I think it came with the birth of my children,

0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think I really started thinking having spending

0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:29.360
<v Speaker 2>time and allocating time to not just enjoying food obviously,

0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:31.880
<v Speaker 2>but to really thinking about cooking again in a way

0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.520
<v Speaker 2>I hadn't in a long long time, and really returned

0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:37.439
<v Speaker 2>to my children some way brought me back to my

0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:40.520
<v Speaker 2>own childhood in the sense of joy I got out

0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:43.600
<v Speaker 2>of food. And so I started very early with them,

0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:45.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, giving them all kinds of adventurous things. And

0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:49.000
<v Speaker 2>I was thirty when I had Lucas, my older son,

0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:51.480
<v Speaker 2>and thirty two when I had just under thirty too,

0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:53.119
<v Speaker 2>actually when I had Row and my uncle one. So

0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.320
<v Speaker 2>I was you know, relative young mother. I just we

0:21:56.560 --> 0:22:00.280
<v Speaker 2>just set up long Pine at the time in ninety eight,

0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:02.760
<v Speaker 2>so that was, you know, really relatively early on as

0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:07.159
<v Speaker 2>well in my career. So both a young working woman

0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:08.280
<v Speaker 2>and a mother.

0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:09.640
<v Speaker 1>How did you come to England?

0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:15.120
<v Speaker 2>We came to England, Oliver and I early in ninety

0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:18.720
<v Speaker 2>nine because of his work and also because I was

0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:21.199
<v Speaker 2>setting up, you know, our little office here in London,

0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:23.119
<v Speaker 2>so it was sort of a combination of factors, and

0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:25.280
<v Speaker 2>we stayed. We thought we'd stay here very briefly, but

0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:27.240
<v Speaker 2>we end up staying here twenty years.

0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:29.679
<v Speaker 1>So then, did you before you had children? Did you

0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:31.560
<v Speaker 1>entertain or entertained?

0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:33.840
<v Speaker 2>I definitely loved cooking and both something I did with

0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:36.479
<v Speaker 2>very much driven by recipes, and so I think what

0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:39.560
<v Speaker 2>really changed was this idea of thinking, going back to

0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:42.920
<v Speaker 2>my Childhoo's sense, as sometimes constraints are good.

0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:44.320
<v Speaker 3>Constraints force you to be great.

0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:47.440
<v Speaker 2>So my big constraint was time and not being able

0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:50.240
<v Speaker 2>to shop for every single ingredient on some obscure recipe list,

0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:51.919
<v Speaker 2>which is what I did a bit more up when

0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:54.680
<v Speaker 2>I entertained very formally for people on a Friday night

0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:58.440
<v Speaker 2>after work. Now it was got to get delicious things

0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:00.800
<v Speaker 2>on you want your children to enjoy it, and so

0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:04.200
<v Speaker 2>I would just say, Okay, the recipe requires a lemon,

0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:06.480
<v Speaker 2>you know what, Let's just try tamarant that's sour too.

0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:07.720
<v Speaker 3>Let's see what that does.

0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:10.919
<v Speaker 2>And so this mixing of different ingredients, different flavors and

0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:14.439
<v Speaker 2>combining them, even though it might be completely different specific

0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:17.440
<v Speaker 2>things from the recipe I just mentioned with your beautiful

0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:20.800
<v Speaker 2>pistachio cake, that's something. And actually the pistachio cake was

0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:22.520
<v Speaker 2>something I started very early with them, which is why

0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:23.879
<v Speaker 2>I have such great memories of it.

0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:25.200
<v Speaker 1>That was in the Easy Book.

0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:28.000
<v Speaker 2>I loved it because what was so great about that

0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:31.400
<v Speaker 2>book and how you constructed that book, Ruthie, was how

0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:34.720
<v Speaker 2>you thought about the ingredients and really foregrounding the ingredients.

0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:36.400
<v Speaker 2>And that gave me courage as a cook to really

0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:39.800
<v Speaker 2>think about the ingredients as something that could be malleable,

0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:42.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, like people are malleable. Recipes going to be malleable.

0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:44.399
<v Speaker 2>And I had so much fun with that book.

0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:45.520
<v Speaker 3>It's such a such.

0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:47.600
<v Speaker 1>A nice way. When we did it, we also thought

0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:50.479
<v Speaker 1>that what we wanted to do. What's hard about cooking is,

0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:55.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, shopping and then the preparation and then you know,

0:23:55.160 --> 0:23:58.040
<v Speaker 1>the presentation if you will, But the shopping, we tried

0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:00.400
<v Speaker 1>to say, okay, we're going to give you a shop list,

0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:02.880
<v Speaker 1>you know. We did the ingredients almost like a shopping list,

0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:05.320
<v Speaker 1>so you could almost you know, tear it out or

0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:08.119
<v Speaker 1>write it down a photocopy in those days probably and

0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:10.080
<v Speaker 1>take it and then you could go to the shop

0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:12.560
<v Speaker 1>with the with the ingredients, and they were all We

0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:15.400
<v Speaker 1>tried to do ingredients that were accessible because shopping isn't

0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:18.760
<v Speaker 1>real pain I mean the restrictions of a working woman

0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:21.480
<v Speaker 1>to having our men to have to go to something

0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:23.679
<v Speaker 1>on the way home from work. It's painful when you

0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:24.960
<v Speaker 1>want to go home and see your kids and help

0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:27.080
<v Speaker 1>them with their homework, you know, and then you have

0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:28.439
<v Speaker 1>to stop and shop.

0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:31.960
<v Speaker 2>And also, I think what it brought me that book

0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:33.879
<v Speaker 2>was really helpful because it also brought me back, not

0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:36.639
<v Speaker 2>just because of the ease. It took some of the

0:24:36.640 --> 0:24:39.600
<v Speaker 2>ease out of the ingredients and searching for those. It

0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:43.080
<v Speaker 2>also started making me think back to what my grandmother

0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:45.480
<v Speaker 2>had told me, which is thinking in proportions, right, so

0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:49.000
<v Speaker 2>not rigidly in terms of quantities, but really ratios of flavors.

0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:51.360
<v Speaker 2>And that's really why I think what turned me from

0:24:51.359 --> 0:24:53.440
<v Speaker 2>someone who just followed a recipe into someone who's really

0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:55.719
<v Speaker 2>a proper cook who really saw you are cooking as

0:24:55.760 --> 0:24:59.200
<v Speaker 2>a creative activity and outlet and something that it became

0:24:59.200 --> 0:25:01.840
<v Speaker 2>a passion in a way. That and so I oiled

0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:02.680
<v Speaker 2>lot to you in that book.

0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:05.760
<v Speaker 1>But does the Indian influence do you? Like you used

0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:09.120
<v Speaker 1>cardonmol and cloves and cinnamon for the cake. Does that

0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:11.639
<v Speaker 1>does something you inherently sort of go for is to

0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:15.360
<v Speaker 1>see how you can make this recipe more exotic by

0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:18.680
<v Speaker 1>doing something from your childhood to it that you yes, I.

0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Mean my sister gave me. I don't know if you've

0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:23.080
<v Speaker 2>seen these big spice dubbles that they have in India

0:25:23.080 --> 0:25:25.280
<v Speaker 2>where you have sort of little trays and a big

0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:27.280
<v Speaker 2>oh yeah, it's a palette. It's like just like a

0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:29.760
<v Speaker 2>paint palette. And that's how I think about spices. It's

0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:33.439
<v Speaker 2>just how to combine them. And you know, my first

0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:37.639
<v Speaker 2>gift to my partner David was really all was just

0:25:37.680 --> 0:25:41.040
<v Speaker 2>a big trays of these spices and how you could

0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:41.560
<v Speaker 2>combine them.

0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:44.160
<v Speaker 3>And I think it's just such a just enormously fun.

0:25:44.160 --> 0:25:46.960
<v Speaker 1>And you go to India or you eat food from

0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:49.639
<v Speaker 1>a different culture, it does make you think how boring

0:25:49.800 --> 0:25:51.480
<v Speaker 1>a lot of our food is. You know, It's just

0:25:51.560 --> 0:25:54.399
<v Speaker 1>it's delicious and it's interesting and the olive oil is strong.

0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:57.320
<v Speaker 1>But then that kind of assault on these senses that

0:25:57.400 --> 0:25:59.879
<v Speaker 1>you have from what's your favorite Indian food? What if

0:25:59.880 --> 0:26:02.560
<v Speaker 1>you I like southern Indian. But I've only been to

0:26:02.600 --> 0:26:06.080
<v Speaker 1>India twice. We went once to the Jaipur out of

0:26:06.119 --> 0:26:09.320
<v Speaker 1>the Delhi part, which I actually really loved just a lot,

0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:12.280
<v Speaker 1>which at the children. And then when we went to

0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:14.800
<v Speaker 1>the south, we went to Goa and down to Kerala,

0:26:14.880 --> 0:26:20.639
<v Speaker 1>and I was very attracted to that food. It's very perfumely, interesting,

0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:23.760
<v Speaker 1>light fishy, and yeah, I like that very much.

0:26:23.880 --> 0:26:26.280
<v Speaker 3>It's more sort of coconut milk off the base. It's

0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:27.040
<v Speaker 3>a little lighter.

0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:29.240
<v Speaker 1>And when was the last time you were in India?

0:26:29.359 --> 0:26:31.320
<v Speaker 3>I was in India in February of this year.

0:26:31.400 --> 0:26:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Actually, yes, yeah, I went.

0:26:34.280 --> 0:26:37.199
<v Speaker 3>To Bombay Mumbais we're supposed to call it now.

0:26:37.600 --> 0:26:40.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, I usually go there into the south to Bangalore,

0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:44.160
<v Speaker 2>and it was again you go there, and yes, it's

0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:47.720
<v Speaker 2>about work and meeting people and seeing friends, but yes,

0:26:47.760 --> 0:26:49.440
<v Speaker 2>it's almost always about food as well.

0:26:49.480 --> 0:26:52.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, you asked me what was my food that I love.

0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:54.359
<v Speaker 1>For Mindiya, what is the food that you love most?

0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:56.159
<v Speaker 1>Is there a region that you particularly like?

0:26:56.480 --> 0:26:58.760
<v Speaker 2>I think, like you, Ruthy, I liked South Indian cuisine.

0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:01.040
<v Speaker 2>But I think there's some amazing food's obviously from from

0:27:01.080 --> 0:27:02.520
<v Speaker 2>the north that I sort of think of as you know,

0:27:02.640 --> 0:27:06.479
<v Speaker 2>just indulgences, the breads and the use of tundor and

0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:09.000
<v Speaker 2>how that, how that has come about. But in terms

0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:11.840
<v Speaker 2>of the or the luck now has just amazing cuisine,

0:27:12.000 --> 0:27:15.240
<v Speaker 2>the d you know, the seal, the pots and clay,

0:27:15.280 --> 0:27:17.920
<v Speaker 2>and there's amazing stuff there. But what I really love

0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:21.440
<v Speaker 2>is that South Indian food in terms of the emphasis

0:27:21.440 --> 0:27:23.880
<v Speaker 2>on spices and the mix of different kinds of spices.

0:27:23.920 --> 0:27:25.159
<v Speaker 3>It's it's it's very it's like.

0:27:25.160 --> 0:27:28.639
<v Speaker 2>A burst of flay, different flavors all layered.

0:27:28.680 --> 0:27:30.000
<v Speaker 3>And I love that idea of layering.

0:27:30.400 --> 0:27:34.359
<v Speaker 2>Whether it's music or literature or cooking, it shouldn't just

0:27:34.359 --> 0:27:37.679
<v Speaker 2>be a one note wonder of a thing. And so

0:27:37.720 --> 0:27:40.160
<v Speaker 2>that's that's what I really love about that cuisine, whether

0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:42.680
<v Speaker 2>it's from Kerala or Tamil now.

0:27:42.680 --> 0:27:46.040
<v Speaker 1>And it's different region, isn't that It's it's.

0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Very different region to region. Yes, even within the South

0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:51.119
<v Speaker 2>I think people forget, but there are multiple layers and

0:27:51.200 --> 0:27:53.040
<v Speaker 2>regions to that. But that's that's the food I think

0:27:53.040 --> 0:27:54.920
<v Speaker 2>about when I think how do I how do you

0:27:55.000 --> 0:27:55.560
<v Speaker 2>recreate that?

0:27:55.760 --> 0:27:57.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's that sense of feeling.

0:28:05.040 --> 0:28:07.720
<v Speaker 1>I really love to think of you is as a

0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:10.080
<v Speaker 1>cook because of my friends. You know, I have friends

0:28:10.160 --> 0:28:12.040
<v Speaker 1>with cooked I have friends who give dinner parties and

0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:14.760
<v Speaker 1>they're great, and they have friends with gardens. I have

0:28:14.760 --> 0:28:18.800
<v Speaker 1>friends with vegetables. But you you have a farm. So

0:28:18.840 --> 0:28:21.520
<v Speaker 1>should we talk about the farm where we had the

0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:25.920
<v Speaker 1>apple juice of the gems and the chutneys and everything.

0:28:26.000 --> 0:28:27.840
<v Speaker 1>So tell us about that farm.

0:28:28.280 --> 0:28:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes. So the idea behind that I work with Mark,

0:28:31.000 --> 0:28:34.000
<v Speaker 2>who's our gardener there really closely to just grow the

0:28:34.080 --> 0:28:35.919
<v Speaker 2>kinds of things that we wouldn't be able to find

0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:38.720
<v Speaker 2>normally otherwise. And we ended up also doing a lot

0:28:38.760 --> 0:28:42.880
<v Speaker 2>of you know, heritage native species that you wouldn't normally

0:28:42.880 --> 0:28:47.520
<v Speaker 2>find otherwise that are sort of going dying out. Well,

0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:50.080
<v Speaker 2>one thing we decided to do is start growing the

0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:53.320
<v Speaker 2>sort of rare type of metal or fruit, and some

0:28:53.440 --> 0:28:57.520
<v Speaker 2>really interesting odd plums, those parts, all those kinds of things.

0:28:57.520 --> 0:29:00.280
<v Speaker 2>And then I realized that they're all of these medlers

0:29:00.400 --> 0:29:04.000
<v Speaker 2>that are native to Sussex. That apparently they call all

0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:06.600
<v Speaker 2>kinds of rude names because I think the local name

0:29:06.640 --> 0:29:09.560
<v Speaker 2>for the metal fruit we group was called like monkeys

0:29:09.640 --> 0:29:11.360
<v Speaker 2>ass or something like that. I mean, it's all kinds

0:29:11.360 --> 0:29:12.960
<v Speaker 2>of like bizarre names.

0:29:13.040 --> 0:29:15.480
<v Speaker 3>I just loved. And so we had a bunch of those,

0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:16.680
<v Speaker 3>just a variety of those.

0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:21.120
<v Speaker 2>One season and they just spank high heaven really but

0:29:21.160 --> 0:29:22.320
<v Speaker 2>I pickled them as I did.

0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:23.880
<v Speaker 3>That was fine, went in doubt.

0:29:25.520 --> 0:29:30.280
<v Speaker 2>So those those were modestly improved by that. And then

0:29:30.320 --> 0:29:34.880
<v Speaker 2>we had a whole spate of different kinds of flowers,

0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:37.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, just local flowers, some edible flowers.

0:29:37.040 --> 0:29:40.560
<v Speaker 1>It isn't organic and sustainable, as I just oric, did

0:29:40.600 --> 0:29:42.880
<v Speaker 1>you change the soil or did you had you.

0:29:43.080 --> 0:29:45.400
<v Speaker 2>It was very chalky as it's in South Down, so

0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:47.400
<v Speaker 2>it's very chalky. So yes, it had to be improved

0:29:47.440 --> 0:29:50.600
<v Speaker 2>us with our local just vegetable waste to be composted

0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:55.080
<v Speaker 2>and stuff. We brought in a lot of fish blood apparently,

0:29:55.280 --> 0:29:57.840
<v Speaker 2>which is brought in for the Yeah, all those that

0:29:57.880 --> 0:30:00.760
<v Speaker 2>we compass soil over whatever twelve fIF years.

0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:02.760
<v Speaker 3>And it became which is much better over time, and.

0:30:02.800 --> 0:30:04.880
<v Speaker 1>What you have now that you grow what is yours?

0:30:05.120 --> 0:30:07.360
<v Speaker 2>Made similar? We try and new new different things. We

0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:09.360
<v Speaker 2>still have the meddlers, by the way, cause you're interested.

0:30:09.520 --> 0:30:13.680
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, still the plums, still the apples.

0:30:13.200 --> 0:30:15.560
<v Speaker 1>As you know, mesty foot vegetables.

0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:18.880
<v Speaker 2>Lots of kale and charred and different kinds of variety.

0:30:19.200 --> 0:30:21.280
<v Speaker 3>Verbs krispy krispy kale.

0:30:21.320 --> 0:30:23.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly, yeah, exactly.

0:30:23.080 --> 0:30:24.840
<v Speaker 1>Tell us how you make that?

0:30:24.840 --> 0:30:25.760
<v Speaker 2>That's a good one.

0:30:25.840 --> 0:30:26.600
<v Speaker 3>That's you take.

0:30:26.640 --> 0:30:28.640
<v Speaker 2>We make a hoist and sauce with the plums and

0:30:28.720 --> 0:30:31.360
<v Speaker 2>we grow and then we mix in a little bit

0:30:31.400 --> 0:30:33.880
<v Speaker 2>of cashew nut butter believe it or not, and then

0:30:33.880 --> 0:30:36.440
<v Speaker 2>a bit of soy sauce and marrin and a bit

0:30:36.480 --> 0:30:39.920
<v Speaker 2>of chili and just put in the dehydrator and.

0:30:39.880 --> 0:30:40.320
<v Speaker 3>There you go.

0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:41.560
<v Speaker 1>How long have you had the fun?

0:30:42.920 --> 0:30:44.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, it's like twenty two thousand and five or

0:30:44.880 --> 0:30:47.600
<v Speaker 2>something like that. Yeah, it's where really my children grew

0:30:47.680 --> 0:30:50.320
<v Speaker 2>up in a way, it's very much part of my

0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:54.360
<v Speaker 2>love of sort of Britain and everything we've we've learned here.

0:30:55.240 --> 0:30:57.160
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, that's that's what it is. And now what

0:30:57.200 --> 0:31:00.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to do there is actually encourage more woman

0:31:01.160 --> 0:31:03.720
<v Speaker 2>gardeners because I think it's such a great profession and

0:31:03.760 --> 0:31:06.040
<v Speaker 2>such a great part of England's heritage. So we've been

0:31:06.400 --> 0:31:10.080
<v Speaker 2>encouraging more sort of interns there under Mark who are

0:31:10.160 --> 0:31:14.880
<v Speaker 2>sort of from the local horticultural college, so things like that.

0:31:14.880 --> 0:31:17.040
<v Speaker 2>That's been great and just having that be part of

0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:19.720
<v Speaker 2>the food. No, we don't have animals except for bees.

0:31:19.760 --> 0:31:20.440
<v Speaker 2>We do have bees.

0:31:20.560 --> 0:31:22.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the honey. Yeah, how's that?

0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:25.600
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's sort of alternous cycles of joy and heartbreak

0:31:25.640 --> 0:31:29.040
<v Speaker 2>because you know, it's tricky sometimes with the weather and

0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:30.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, so we've had the one thing I've learned

0:31:30.880 --> 0:31:33.440
<v Speaker 2>is you to keep the beehives really high up, and

0:31:33.480 --> 0:31:35.240
<v Speaker 2>it's we were just way too close to the ground.

0:31:35.240 --> 0:31:38.240
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a big mistake that early beepers make.

0:31:38.320 --> 0:31:38.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:31:38.640 --> 0:31:40.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so they don't like the damp.

0:31:40.800 --> 0:31:41.560
<v Speaker 1>They don't like the damp.

0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, if you think about it, naturally they put their

0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:45.520
<v Speaker 2>eyes way high up. Why why why am i so?

0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:47.800
<v Speaker 1>And do you flavor your honey? Do you do different

0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:48.800
<v Speaker 1>types of honey or.

0:31:49.640 --> 0:31:52.400
<v Speaker 2>My son, younger son encouraged me to start putting chili

0:31:52.520 --> 0:31:54.440
<v Speaker 2>into the honey, which has been a great success.

0:32:00.400 --> 0:32:03.640
<v Speaker 1>If you like listening to Ruthie's table for would you

0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:07.800
<v Speaker 1>please make sure to rate and review the podcast on

0:32:07.840 --> 0:32:12.840
<v Speaker 1>the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get

0:32:12.840 --> 0:32:25.160
<v Speaker 1>your podcasts. Thank you. You mentioned David, Yes, and that's

0:32:25.240 --> 0:32:29.480
<v Speaker 1>David Byrne, and you brought him to meet me in

0:32:29.560 --> 0:32:31.880
<v Speaker 1>the River Cafe a few years ago, some years ago,

0:32:31.880 --> 0:32:35.360
<v Speaker 1>because he was just intrigued about how, as many how

0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:38.120
<v Speaker 1>a restaurant works. I'm intrigued to know how a fund works,

0:32:38.160 --> 0:32:41.160
<v Speaker 1>and I'm intrigued to know how being somebody from content

0:32:41.280 --> 0:32:44.800
<v Speaker 1>and producers work. But it really is interesting to people.

0:32:44.840 --> 0:32:47.120
<v Speaker 1>I think, how does the motzarell rive at the same

0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:48.959
<v Speaker 1>time as a pasta? And how do you order? And

0:32:49.000 --> 0:32:52.320
<v Speaker 1>he was very he seemed to be much more interested,

0:32:52.440 --> 0:32:55.080
<v Speaker 1>almost as much as how we write the menu. We

0:32:55.120 --> 0:32:57.000
<v Speaker 1>do write the menu in a kind of unique way,

0:32:57.000 --> 0:32:59.720
<v Speaker 1>which is that we do it every differently for every meal.

0:33:00.440 --> 0:33:02.360
<v Speaker 1>What is his interest in food?

0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:05.200
<v Speaker 2>He likes just very similar to me. I think it's

0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:07.200
<v Speaker 2>just a wonderful thing. It's it's food as a form

0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:09.760
<v Speaker 2>of love. You know, that's what you offer your friends

0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:12.600
<v Speaker 2>and your family, and it's a creative act as well.

0:33:12.960 --> 0:33:15.760
<v Speaker 2>And I think one thing, Yes, that was actually a

0:33:15.800 --> 0:33:18.000
<v Speaker 2>really fantastic day. I was really great to just come

0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:20.880
<v Speaker 2>here and put the menu together, and and and and

0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:23.120
<v Speaker 2>sort of see how everything was put together in a

0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:24.200
<v Speaker 2>sort of magical place.

0:33:33.960 --> 0:33:37.080
<v Speaker 1>Hey, we see, Hi, sad here we are. We've spoke with.

0:33:37.120 --> 0:33:43.000
<v Speaker 7>Lots of artists and actors and musicians, and you sort

0:33:43.000 --> 0:33:46.280
<v Speaker 7>of see a logical journey from their creative work they

0:33:46.280 --> 0:33:48.200
<v Speaker 7>do in the studio to their work in the kitchen.

0:33:48.680 --> 0:33:51.040
<v Speaker 7>We haven't spoken that many business people who have this

0:33:51.120 --> 0:33:54.520
<v Speaker 7>passion for cooking, and I wonder if that's us being

0:33:54.680 --> 0:33:56.960
<v Speaker 7>now reminded, whether that you are quite unique in that

0:33:57.000 --> 0:33:57.640
<v Speaker 7>in that sense.

0:33:58.840 --> 0:34:02.280
<v Speaker 2>I think that, well, I'm sure there are many business

0:34:02.320 --> 0:34:05.440
<v Speaker 2>people who love cooking, because I firmly believe that business

0:34:05.640 --> 0:34:09.279
<v Speaker 2>is a creative activity when done well. I think any

0:34:09.480 --> 0:34:12.800
<v Speaker 2>when I define creative activity as connecting different areas and

0:34:12.880 --> 0:34:15.319
<v Speaker 2>fresh and new ways, and that if you're good at

0:34:15.360 --> 0:34:18.120
<v Speaker 2>pretty much anything, you have to think creatively, no matter

0:34:18.120 --> 0:34:20.239
<v Speaker 2>what it is. And as a result of that, I

0:34:20.320 --> 0:34:23.359
<v Speaker 2>don't necessarily see the dichotomy maybe as much as might

0:34:23.400 --> 0:34:26.239
<v Speaker 2>otherwise seem from the outside. And I also think if

0:34:26.239 --> 0:34:30.040
<v Speaker 2>you're someone who's a philanthropist and wants to do well,

0:34:30.040 --> 0:34:34.360
<v Speaker 2>particularly in the public health area, thinking about the business

0:34:34.360 --> 0:34:37.799
<v Speaker 2>of food and the public health aspects of food and

0:34:37.840 --> 0:34:40.319
<v Speaker 2>the creative aspects of food are actually quite intertwined in

0:34:40.360 --> 0:34:42.879
<v Speaker 2>some really interesting ways. I mean, one thing I think

0:34:42.880 --> 0:34:46.080
<v Speaker 2>a lot about and I don't know if this is statistic,

0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:48.680
<v Speaker 2>you all of you knew, but one thing I was

0:34:49.040 --> 0:34:52.400
<v Speaker 2>sent was a introduction of high fructose corn syrup into

0:34:52.760 --> 0:34:56.080
<v Speaker 2>the American food industry was nineteen seventy and back then

0:34:56.160 --> 0:34:59.719
<v Speaker 2>the obesity rate was relatively deminimous. And you progress that

0:35:00.320 --> 0:35:03.560
<v Speaker 2>ninety and hygrictos corn circus half of all sugar used,

0:35:03.560 --> 0:35:06.480
<v Speaker 2>and now forty percent is a pc rate. So that

0:35:06.680 --> 0:35:09.279
<v Speaker 2>sort of the business of food and how that has

0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:12.680
<v Speaker 2>made food process food at least much more actually addictive.

0:35:12.800 --> 0:35:14.040
<v Speaker 3>And there's some great books on this.

0:35:14.280 --> 0:35:15.960
<v Speaker 2>Moss has written a great book called Hooked on This,

0:35:16.480 --> 0:35:19.000
<v Speaker 2>and you lead that into the public health aspects of

0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:21.600
<v Speaker 2>what that's led to. I think about that a lot.

0:35:21.800 --> 0:35:23.960
<v Speaker 2>So I think about food is really just such a

0:35:24.040 --> 0:35:27.200
<v Speaker 2>core aspect of our society and cultural identities.

0:35:27.440 --> 0:35:30.280
<v Speaker 1>It tells you about a culture, It tells you about society,

0:35:30.320 --> 0:35:32.520
<v Speaker 1>It tells you about a city. I would say, out

0:35:32.560 --> 0:35:34.319
<v Speaker 1>of the market the first time we get to a city,

0:35:34.320 --> 0:35:35.120
<v Speaker 1>because it tells.

0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:36.040
<v Speaker 3>You that he tells you everything.

0:35:36.160 --> 0:35:38.799
<v Speaker 2>The one thing that actually in food that Dave and

0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:40.919
<v Speaker 2>I learned a lot about was just how the brain

0:35:41.000 --> 0:35:43.680
<v Speaker 2>processes food, which is interesting for tell you as well,

0:35:43.719 --> 0:35:45.839
<v Speaker 2>which is we did this project called Theater of the Mind.

0:35:45.880 --> 0:35:48.920
<v Speaker 2>We wrote this theater piece together that ended up running

0:35:48.920 --> 0:35:51.080
<v Speaker 2>in Denver and run a few other cities. And as

0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:53.719
<v Speaker 2>part of that, one thing we learned is how the

0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:57.839
<v Speaker 2>brain creates these illusions around taste. And have you ever

0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:01.120
<v Speaker 2>heard of this West African miracle berry? So David told

0:36:01.160 --> 0:36:02.520
<v Speaker 2>me about it. I actually haven't heard it. Heard about

0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:04.120
<v Speaker 2>it first from him. So it's a West African berry.

0:36:04.200 --> 0:36:06.759
<v Speaker 2>It's a little bush about two meters high. It has

0:36:06.760 --> 0:36:10.279
<v Speaker 2>these olive shaped little red berries, and you chew on

0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:13.360
<v Speaker 2>it just tastes quite bulerable and it binds to the

0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:16.760
<v Speaker 2>sweet receptors in your tongue. And anytime you eat anything sour,

0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:19.840
<v Speaker 2>it activates the sweet receptors, so you get this burst

0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:21.479
<v Speaker 2>of sugar in your mouth. So you literally you're chewing

0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:25.160
<v Speaker 2>on a lemon. Ever, I mean just like just until

0:36:25.160 --> 0:36:27.000
<v Speaker 2>it lasts a couple of years, you chew on it.

0:36:27.120 --> 0:36:29.160
<v Speaker 2>You can chew on a lemon and it literally tastes

0:36:29.160 --> 0:36:31.040
<v Speaker 2>like it tastes like a you know, like a Sunday

0:36:31.040 --> 0:36:32.320
<v Speaker 2>ice cream Sunday, and it's amazing.

0:36:32.320 --> 0:36:34.680
<v Speaker 3>It's this crazy kind of experiences. So we put that

0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:35.640
<v Speaker 3>into our theater piece.

0:36:35.600 --> 0:36:38.200
<v Speaker 2>It's an immersive theater piece that people went through and

0:36:38.440 --> 0:36:43.360
<v Speaker 2>people start screaming because you're such an intimate part of

0:36:43.400 --> 0:36:45.640
<v Speaker 2>your sense, you know, your sensory system to have this

0:36:45.800 --> 0:36:49.680
<v Speaker 2>like the lemons something sweet. Yeah, And so they were

0:36:49.680 --> 0:36:50.440
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of littles.

0:36:50.680 --> 0:36:54.200
<v Speaker 1>We were tusting things like that, you're immersive. I was

0:36:54.239 --> 0:36:55.839
<v Speaker 1>talking to Will you were.

0:36:55.760 --> 0:36:59.719
<v Speaker 6>Going to ask, Yeah, I just was interested because something

0:36:59.760 --> 0:37:04.200
<v Speaker 6>that comes up on the podcast, as Ruthie says, food

0:37:04.320 --> 0:37:07.560
<v Speaker 6>is memory. And obviously there's so much a connection between

0:37:07.640 --> 0:37:10.320
<v Speaker 6>taste and smell. And do you think that our connection

0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:12.319
<v Speaker 6>with food and memory is as strong as we think

0:37:12.360 --> 0:37:15.279
<v Speaker 6>it is or do you think that it's intangible and

0:37:15.560 --> 0:37:16.319
<v Speaker 6>changes time?

0:37:16.440 --> 0:37:20.120
<v Speaker 2>And I think memories are definitely malleable. I mean that's

0:37:20.160 --> 0:37:22.400
<v Speaker 2>not me speaking, that's just you know, what we've.

0:37:22.320 --> 0:37:23.200
<v Speaker 3>Learned over the years.

0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:25.440
<v Speaker 2>And I think we should think about our brains not

0:37:25.560 --> 0:37:29.360
<v Speaker 2>as direct processors and senses out there. We construct the

0:37:29.400 --> 0:37:31.320
<v Speaker 2>world every time we look at the world, So what

0:37:31.480 --> 0:37:33.840
<v Speaker 2>we see is not a specific radio frequency. What we

0:37:33.920 --> 0:37:36.200
<v Speaker 2>see is really something our brain is constructed as an image,

0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:38.160
<v Speaker 2>and there are all kinds of evidence for that. For example,

0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:40.880
<v Speaker 2>we don't see the blind spots in our eyes, we

0:37:41.080 --> 0:37:44.239
<v Speaker 2>just paper them over. So our brain constructs the world,

0:37:44.400 --> 0:37:46.279
<v Speaker 2>and I think that's taste as part of that. And

0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:50.040
<v Speaker 2>I think every time we remember something, since our brain

0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:54.239
<v Speaker 2>is really about learning, it's not really about being a photocopier, right,

0:37:54.320 --> 0:37:57.360
<v Speaker 2>what's used is that evolutionarily speaking, since our brain is

0:37:57.400 --> 0:38:00.520
<v Speaker 2>a learning engine, we revise the memories as come along

0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:02.720
<v Speaker 2>to suit what is best for us, and to update

0:38:02.800 --> 0:38:05.279
<v Speaker 2>them based upon what we've learned since that memory was

0:38:05.320 --> 0:38:08.880
<v Speaker 2>initially formed. And so I think memories are infinitely valuable

0:38:08.880 --> 0:38:10.680
<v Speaker 2>as a result, and there's a lot of really interesting

0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:14.480
<v Speaker 2>research on that, and also how false memories can be

0:38:14.920 --> 0:38:17.399
<v Speaker 2>ascribed to People's been interesting research on that as well.

0:38:17.960 --> 0:38:20.359
<v Speaker 2>So I think one thing we learned about with all

0:38:20.400 --> 0:38:22.320
<v Speaker 2>of our research when David and I went to Labs

0:38:22.400 --> 0:38:26.279
<v Speaker 2>to construct the Theater of the Mind immersive theater piece

0:38:26.400 --> 0:38:29.440
<v Speaker 2>that you talked about, a lot of it was around

0:38:29.880 --> 0:38:31.920
<v Speaker 2>how memory is really malleable and in a way that's

0:38:32.000 --> 0:38:35.279
<v Speaker 2>really good so people can go through life and they're

0:38:35.320 --> 0:38:37.879
<v Speaker 2>not stuck. You know, there's always a possibility of change,

0:38:37.920 --> 0:38:40.600
<v Speaker 2>which I really fundamentally see is a hopeful thing that

0:38:40.719 --> 0:38:43.880
<v Speaker 2>we can evolve and move on from memories in the past.

0:38:44.120 --> 0:38:46.359
<v Speaker 2>So yes, I do think it's malleable to answer your question.

0:38:46.960 --> 0:38:50.719
<v Speaker 1>They certainly talk about people's memories here, and I just

0:38:50.840 --> 0:38:54.480
<v Speaker 1>say that to as William said, that food is memory

0:38:54.680 --> 0:38:57.799
<v Speaker 1>and memory is food. Many people's memories come back when

0:38:57.840 --> 0:39:00.360
<v Speaker 1>they start talking about the food there. I've had just

0:39:00.440 --> 0:39:02.520
<v Speaker 1>in the interviews we've done, people say, oh my god,

0:39:02.600 --> 0:39:05.160
<v Speaker 1>I never I don't remember that until I started talking

0:39:05.280 --> 0:39:08.480
<v Speaker 1>about my father when he divorced my mother and I

0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:12.439
<v Speaker 1>was eight, that suddenly he started cooking because he wanted

0:39:12.520 --> 0:39:14.759
<v Speaker 1>us to know that things. You know that he could

0:39:14.800 --> 0:39:16.840
<v Speaker 1>do that, or you know, he is an expression of

0:39:16.880 --> 0:39:20.680
<v Speaker 1>his love and mel Brooks at age ninety eight. Remember,

0:39:21.160 --> 0:39:24.560
<v Speaker 1>he says, unless it's a malleable memory that he remembers

0:39:24.600 --> 0:39:26.359
<v Speaker 1>the name of the woman who cooked him his first

0:39:26.480 --> 0:39:29.239
<v Speaker 1>pasta when he was eight, so ninety years ago, he

0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:31.520
<v Speaker 1>can remember her name because the food. He can't remember

0:39:31.560 --> 0:39:34.120
<v Speaker 1>the person who taught him to tie his shoes, but

0:39:34.200 --> 0:39:37.360
<v Speaker 1>he can remember somebody who taught him to make a pasta,

0:39:37.440 --> 0:39:42.120
<v Speaker 1>and then the memories of sad memories, somebody making something

0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:45.319
<v Speaker 1>for you before they died, or you know, somebody wanted

0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:47.959
<v Speaker 1>to eat something, you know, but as they were dying,

0:39:48.000 --> 0:39:52.120
<v Speaker 1>and it is you know, yeah, it's all to do

0:39:52.280 --> 0:39:55.000
<v Speaker 1>with I mean, I'm sure there are other smells probably

0:39:55.040 --> 0:39:58.200
<v Speaker 1>bring back memories, and pain brings back memories. But food

0:39:58.239 --> 0:39:59.040
<v Speaker 1>do you think it does?

0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:02.200
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely right with you? And really it really does. I

0:40:02.280 --> 0:40:05.239
<v Speaker 2>think a lot about sort of my favorite foods and

0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:08.759
<v Speaker 2>and what I do when I'm trying to recreate some

0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:10.520
<v Speaker 2>of them. Some of them are not even ones that

0:40:10.800 --> 0:40:13.319
<v Speaker 2>were in a recipe. They're just ones I remember having

0:40:13.400 --> 0:40:15.560
<v Speaker 2>had or maybe it was at a restaurant such as yours,

0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:18.000
<v Speaker 2>or maybe it was but you're so generous with your recipes.

0:40:18.040 --> 0:40:19.319
<v Speaker 3>But you know, maybe it was.

0:40:19.320 --> 0:40:24.279
<v Speaker 2>Something that my grandmother and aunt cooked for me or yeah,

0:40:24.320 --> 0:40:26.080
<v Speaker 2>and and and those are the those are the memory

0:40:26.120 --> 0:40:28.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to recreate, you know, in my kitchen.

0:40:28.760 --> 0:40:30.719
<v Speaker 1>And you were saying, your children and your mother, what

0:40:30.920 --> 0:40:33.279
<v Speaker 1>is and that connection? Is it a connection for them and.

0:40:33.880 --> 0:40:35.960
<v Speaker 3>For them as well? Yes, it's very much. Okay, you're

0:40:36.120 --> 0:40:38.360
<v Speaker 3>coming over, what would you like to eat? It's a

0:40:38.440 --> 0:40:39.760
<v Speaker 3>feeling and so going.

0:40:39.760 --> 0:40:42.600
<v Speaker 1>To I suppose finding to the end, we would say,

0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:46.520
<v Speaker 1>if you needed to reach for some food, my friend,

0:40:46.640 --> 0:40:50.239
<v Speaker 1>beautiful friend, mama, for comfort, you wanted something to eat,

0:40:50.440 --> 0:40:51.719
<v Speaker 1>is there something you would go for?

0:40:52.680 --> 0:40:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I mean I think of comfort as more a

0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:57.480
<v Speaker 2>sense of love or maybe even joy.

0:40:57.560 --> 0:40:59.880
<v Speaker 3>And we all need that, right, I mean, I certainly do.

0:41:00.200 --> 0:41:05.280
<v Speaker 2>And I think of that as this very specific rossum

0:41:05.360 --> 0:41:07.040
<v Speaker 2>that my grandmother used to make for me when I

0:41:07.200 --> 0:41:09.800
<v Speaker 2>was ill, and it was this sort of garlic rossum.

0:41:09.840 --> 0:41:13.279
<v Speaker 2>And to the question earlier about memory, it was something

0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:16.000
<v Speaker 2>I never could make and I never quite figure out

0:41:16.000 --> 0:41:18.359
<v Speaker 2>the exact flavors. And this is a really interesting story.

0:41:18.400 --> 0:41:21.400
<v Speaker 2>And then someone told me about a woman who lived

0:41:21.640 --> 0:41:26.400
<v Speaker 2>in Chennai village in south in Tamil Nadu and her

0:41:26.520 --> 0:41:29.719
<v Speaker 2>mission in life, among other things she was accomplished in

0:41:29.800 --> 0:41:33.360
<v Speaker 2>many ways, was to do a compilation of all of

0:41:33.480 --> 0:41:38.320
<v Speaker 2>the pickle recipes and chutney recipes in Roussam's in South India.

0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:41.359
<v Speaker 2>And so she literally systematically went through and she had

0:41:41.719 --> 0:41:44.000
<v Speaker 2>the book and had gone out of print. So I

0:41:44.040 --> 0:41:46.320
<v Speaker 2>actually wrote her and I got this little pdf in

0:41:46.400 --> 0:41:51.840
<v Speaker 2>the mail. Her name is Usha Prabakara and she literally

0:41:51.960 --> 0:41:55.040
<v Speaker 2>now she has it on Amazon. And there's one called

0:41:55.040 --> 0:41:57.480
<v Speaker 2>four Under Pickles and there's another one called A Thousand Russums.

0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:00.799
<v Speaker 2>And I could not recommend both of these books more.

0:42:01.000 --> 0:42:03.520
<v Speaker 2>And you can write her, what would you make it?

0:42:04.000 --> 0:42:04.279
<v Speaker 6>This is it?

0:42:04.400 --> 0:42:06.040
<v Speaker 1>This is the food. You go for it, but would you.

0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:07.400
<v Speaker 3>It's meant to It's very simple.

0:42:07.520 --> 0:42:09.799
<v Speaker 2>You just make it with a little bit of tour doll,

0:42:09.800 --> 0:42:11.600
<v Speaker 2>which is kind of lentil, and you grind that up

0:42:11.719 --> 0:42:16.160
<v Speaker 2>with coriander and cumin, and you mix it up with

0:42:16.360 --> 0:42:18.680
<v Speaker 2>essentially what I almost make like a lentil stock, lentil

0:42:18.680 --> 0:42:20.840
<v Speaker 2>and spice stock, and you add a bit of chili.

0:42:21.000 --> 0:42:23.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's called the third corp where you put

0:42:23.719 --> 0:42:26.160
<v Speaker 2>you mix and oils and mustard seeds and a bit

0:42:26.200 --> 0:42:26.800
<v Speaker 2>of chili.

0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:28.520
<v Speaker 3>And you can sprinkle it on top. It's delicious.

0:42:29.120 --> 0:42:31.560
<v Speaker 2>And you know, any cold you have, I'd be curious

0:42:32.719 --> 0:42:33.160
<v Speaker 2>guarantee you.

0:42:34.160 --> 0:42:37.040
<v Speaker 3>I love you, Thank you, Love you too, Ruthy, thank you.

0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:49.880
<v Speaker 6>Ruthie's Table for is produced by Atami Studios for iHeartRadio.

0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:53.640
<v Speaker 6>It's hosted by Ruthie Rogers and it's produced by William Lensky.

0:42:54.440 --> 0:42:57.520
<v Speaker 6>This episode was edited by Julia Johnson. And mixed by

0:42:57.640 --> 0:43:02.600
<v Speaker 6>Nigel Appleton. Our executive users are Fai Stewart and Zad Rogers.

0:43:03.239 --> 0:43:06.680
<v Speaker 6>Our production manager is Caitlin Paramore and our production coordinator

0:43:06.800 --> 0:43:10.920
<v Speaker 6>is Bella Selini. This episode had additional contributions by Sean

0:43:11.120 --> 0:43:14.160
<v Speaker 6>Wynn Owen. Thank you to everyone at The River Cafe

0:43:14.480 --> 0:43:16.000
<v Speaker 6>for your help in making this episode