WEBVTT - Tumbleweeds, Part 2: Riddles and Radiation 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:15.080 My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:18.000 My name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick. And 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.560 the Flaming Tumbleweed has rolled right back in. We're ready 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:24.840 for part two of this series. That's right. If you 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.800 didn't listen to part one, go back, give it a listen, 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.440 because we get we get all into the topic of tumbleweeds, 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:34.960 talking about what what tumbleweeds are? What? What what do 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:37.680 we mean when we talk about them in the American sense, 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:41.800 in a broader sense, why do they do the tumbling uh? 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.360 And so forth. I think it's a pretty fun episode, 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:48.279 and we're gonna we're gonna keep the ball rolling today. Now. 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.240 One of the interesting things that we discovered in the 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:54.280 last episode is that while the tumbleweed is an icon 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:58.680 of the American West, uh, the main species of tumbleweed, 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:00.960 the thing people are usual really talking about in the 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.440 American context when they say a tumbleweed is a plant 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:08.800 known as Russian thistle that only arrived in the United 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:13.920 States probably around the eighteen seventies. And so this is 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.679 not even native to North America. It's something that comes 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:21.760 from the Eurasian step. Yeah, it is very much an invader. 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:24.840 It is an invasive species, and we're gonna get into 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:27.679 some of the ramifications of that here. But it's also 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:31.160 one of the reasons why if you look for um 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:35.959 for like Native American accounts of tumbleweeds, uh, you know, 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:38.320 they're not going to exist before a certain point, because 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.200 they don't even come in with the initial colonists, with 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.559 the initial influx of Westerners, or even the first few 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:49.440 influxes of Westerners. They come in much later. However, you 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.560 do find some interesting uh uses of tumbleweed. I was 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:58.520 reading in the Journal of American Folklore article titled The 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.240 Witches Were Saved a Zoo New origin story by Dennis Tedlock. 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.120 So the Zuni or one of the Pueblo people of 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:09.160 the American West, and the author here discusses work by 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:14.960 the author Andrew Pinesta, intended for oral performance. Pinesta was 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:18.040 a Zuni storyteller, and the story in question was apparently 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:22.040 told in nine uh. And then Tedlock, you know, is 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.440 writing about it and discussing it, and it concerns interference 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:29.079 by the US military into Zuni affairs. But it mentions 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.760 the tumble weeds in a way that I think is 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:36.040 rather clever and drives home their invasive and uh, their 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:40.399 their invasive nature. Here quote there's a spot near Neutria 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:43.959 where the soldiers camped. They fed hay to their horses, 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:48.000 and there were tumbleweeds seeds in it. Now only tumbleweeds 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.519 grow on that spot, and they've spread all over. Oh, 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:55.080 so framing the soldiers here is a vector of the 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.760 spread of this invasive plant. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's my 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:00.720 read of it. Anyway, you know, it's it's touching on 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:04.280 the foreign invasive nature of both, um, both the the 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.640 the American military presence here in the presence of of 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:11.000 Westerners in general, and the tumbleweed, both things that that 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.239 kind of curse the land. In this viewpoint, I was 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:17.359 looking around for, you know, obviously, to find older sort 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.880 of folklore it takes and cultural takes on tumbleweeds. You 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:22.639 have to go to the parts of the world where 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.880 tumbleweeds were originally or would have spread to before they 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:29.320 had a chance to take root in America. Literally. Um. 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:33.520 I was reading The Rooster in the Transylvanian Folklore by 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.600 Ferric Posni, and in it the author rights on the 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:41.280 Transylvanian plane, people used to believe that witches would cause 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:45.240 aridity by burning a stolen rooster feather on the tumbleweed. 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.960 Oh this is interesting. So the tumbleweed lord does go back, 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.840 you know, to to pre modernity, but in in the 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:57.080 in the Step region rather than in North America. Yeah, 0:03:57.400 --> 0:03:59.280 and so I was I was looking around for more 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:01.440 raf says to it. I'm sure there's some good ones 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:03.600 I missed. So anybody out there who's aware of u 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:08.119 of any folkloric treatments of tumble weeds from from any 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:10.080 part of the world, right in and share them with us. 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:15.560 But I found mentions of tumbleweeds in Mongolian tradition, namely 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:20.080 as the subject of traditional Mongolian riddles as Collected and 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:25.279 disgust in Mongolian Folklore, A representative collection from the oral 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:30.400 tradition Part one, and this is by Hanging Krueger, Service 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:34.840 and Rosiecki published in Mongolian Studies, and this came out. 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:36.640 This is one of those volumes that came out like 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:40.679 Bridging eighty five and eighty six, So they cover both 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:45.440 Mongolian folk sayings and riddles in this paper. And this 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:47.880 was this is actually a real pleasure to read. I know, Joe, 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.719 you looked at it as well. It's it's it's almost 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:53.000 like I think I was telling you before we recorded, 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.160 like I kind of want to see this bound as 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.839 its own little paperback edition and uh and available for 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.440 purchase somewhere, because it's just it's full of these these 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:05.200 fun little Mongolian folks things and then ultimately riddles, many 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:08.160 of which you know are gonna have residents with with 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:11.600 readers anywhere in the world, right though some of which 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.200 are are completely like going to be lost on you 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.920 if you don't know much about animal husbandry or goats 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.440 or anything. But but other ones, yeah, they are very 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:23.640 universal and and almost all the sayings are great. Uh 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.120 So the first half of it concerns more like proverbs, 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:29.680 you know, those kind of sayings that that don't they're 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:31.599 not like a prompt in the way the riddle is 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:34.479 uh And and a lot of the proverbs are really good. 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.159 One of them that I'm just doing this from memory, 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.720 but I think it was something like, uh, load of 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:45.240 donkey up with cargo, load of fool up with praise. Yeah, 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:47.840 they're so good though, obviously, Yeah, they're they're they're they're 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.000 emerging from a particular culture in a particular region. They 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.400 speak very much to the environment in the cultures of 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.919 the Mongolian people here. Um. But but yeah, the riddles 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:00.599 here they have a lot in common then with riddle 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:04.280 traditions around the world. The authors here right quote the 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.720 heart of the riddle is naturally the real or fancied 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:12.960 resemblance between two ideas or things, although sometimes punning plays 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.000 a role when the similarity involves two or three words 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.960 which sound alike. So I have a I have a 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.560 couple of riddles here. I'm gonna I'm gonna inflict them 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.279 on you, Joe, and you may be able to guess 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.440 the answer to a couple of them. But here's the 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.600 first one. When it comes from yonder, it looks like 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.080 a camel. When it crawls under the wagon, it looks 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.960 like a goat. Okay, So I know the answer to 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.960 this one, which is that it's a tumble weed. But 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.279 nonetheless I don't get it. I don't understand why it 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:47.520 looks like a goat when it crawls under the wagon. 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:49.920 What what do goats do under the wagon? That is, like, 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.159 do goats kind of crack and break or they brittle 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:55.880 under a wagon. I don't know. I guess maybe they're 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.919 just smaller. Like I can definitely, you know, my driving 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.440 experience that I talked about in the last episode, I 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:06.360 can definitely relate to the idea that the bumbling tumbleweed 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.000 on the highway may look as big as a camel. 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.280 It may be that intimidating, and then once you actually 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:14.360 run it over, you're like, oh, well, that was more 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:18.320 like running over a goat. I've never run over a gut. 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:20.240 I don't know why I laughed to be very sad 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:23.240 to run over a goat, but for some reason that 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:25.800 was funny at the time, at the time, for ten 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:29.480 seconds ago. But but anyway, I do think this is 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:32.800 one of the ones that is interesting because it seems 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:37.320 to require some kind of localized knowledge that we don't 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.160 really have. And this is something actually that the authors 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:44.400 mentioned uh in their introduction to the section on Mongolian riddles. 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.520 They say that, you know, riddles are nearly universal in 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.600 cultures around the world, and it's interesting to see what 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:54.680 topics are the most common in each riddle culture. And 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:57.880 so they say, for example, all cultures have riddles concerning 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.640 astronomical phenomenon like the on in the moon. But that 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.160 when you look at Mongolian riddles in particular, they're going 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:09.160 to be especially focused on topics like animal husbandry. So 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.960 there will be riddles that that have to do with 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.640 camels and goats and horses and things like that. And 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:18.960 obviously also localized plants will show up in a culture's 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.400 riddles about nature, and the tumbleweed would be one of these. 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.720 Speaking of which, here's another riddle, Joe from this stuff, 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.160 from this uh, this collection, It travels by the wind. 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:32.760 It stays in the ditch. Now this one I get more. Yeah, 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.600 this is a tumbleweed. And I think that the tickling, 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:39.280 the brain tickling part of this, maybe that it's playing 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.680 on your assumption when you say it travels by the wind. 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:45.640 People are naturally primed to think about something other than 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:49.640 like a plant or a feature of the natural world. Yeah, 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.280 something that actually lives and and in in the air, 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:55.040 and something that flies in the air like a bird. 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.120 Or you're thinking, maybe it's gonna be something like song 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.680 or something, but wasn't It stays in a bit. I 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:04.160 thought of a boat. That's a that's a good one too, 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:08.320 but no, it's the tumble weed. Which I mean, this 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:10.480 feels right as well. I mean, there's this thing that 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.040 is is pretty impressive when it really gets going, but 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.880 it winds in a good ditch and it's done for exactly. 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:18.839 I mean, this calls to mind those images we saw 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.160 last time of you know, five hundred tumbleweeds all jammed 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:26.520 into a culvert. Yeah. Alright, So Joe, you knew that 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:28.800 the answer to those riddles was going to be the 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:31.280 tumble weed, but I wanted to I wanted to give 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:35.599 you a shot. It's a non tumble weed Mongolian riddles here. Okay, 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:39.480 so these I I realized these may be a bit difficult, 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.320 but we're gonna give it a shot. Here's the first one. 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.040 If I only had a tongue, I would be a witness. 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.160 If I could only rise up, I could reach up 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.760 to heaven. Now I saw this one before you read it, 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.440 and I thought about it, and I honestly have no idea. 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:59.040 I mean, so the second one is making me think 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:03.840 it maybe is something that is long but not tall, 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.800 you know, like, uh yeah, but but I really don't know. Well, 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:10.160 you're on the right track, because the answer to this 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:14.600 one is the road. Oh okay, Uh Well, I certainly 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:16.640 get the second half. If I could only rise up, 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:18.000 I could reach up to heaven, you know, if you 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:21.480 could flip the axis. But why what is it about 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:23.319 the tongue? If I only had a tongue that could 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:26.440 be a witness, I I don't. I don't know this one. 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.400 They didn't come. They basically just explained that this one 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:31.480 had to do with you know, they give the answer, 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.840 but they didn't explain what the tongue in the witness 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:38.520 bit means. Maybe just because you know so much happens 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.880 on the road that the road is is kind of 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:44.920 all knowing. In a sense, it connects to everywhere. Yeah, 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:46.880 it's like if these walls could talk, but there are 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.760 no walls, if this road could talk. Yeah, and in 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.240 in a sense, you know, it's yeah, it is everywhere 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.600 at once. This road that I am on is also 0:10:57.520 --> 0:10:59.840 in this distant city as well as the city I 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.720 am from. And it's with me right here. Interesting, All right, 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:08.120 here's one more. I have something. Others use it a lot, 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.199 but I use it only occasionally. Now with this one, 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:14.559 I also have no idea. I was trying to think 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.960 in the animal agriculture kind of zone, would could this 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.520 be something about I don't know, a like a goat. 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:24.360 Does a goat not use its own milk very much? 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:28.120 Or something? I don't know. Well, the answer to this 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:32.480 one is my name. Oh oh, that's very good. It's 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:37.120 very good. Yeah. Yeah. The the rationale being that generally 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.280 you're not saying your own name as much as other 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:41.960 people are saying your name. But this is like not 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:45.600 a good riddle if it's delivered by Bob Dole, right yeah, 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:49.000 or doing the Rock Johnson that kind of thing exactly. Okay, 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:50.599 Well I pulled that one for you, Rob. Did you 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:54.720 already see the solution to this one? Um? I don't. 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:56.880 I'd probably not going to remember it. Okay, it's just 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:00.640 one line. The head is the enemy of its body. 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.800 M what is it? The head is the enemy of 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:09.199 its body? Oh? Oh, I don't know. Again. I'm I'm 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.920 thinking and my mind is turning to two cows and 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.000 goats and horses, and I'm I'm also you know, trying 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.520 to think of like the great expanse of the Mongolian countryside, 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.160 and I'm I'm drawing a blank here. I think I 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.520 got us overly focused on on bovida and stuff. No, No, 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:29.280 the answer is a match stick. That's pretty good. So, yeah, 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.160 this has got to be a more modern riddle, I guess. 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:33.960 And I don't know when all of these come from, 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.280 Like do some of these date back hundreds of years, 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:38.800 whereas others are, you know, maybe from the nineteenth or 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:41.320 twentieth century. Yeah, I get the impression that that a 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.120 number of them maybe more recent. Oh and another one 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:46.080 of them that I saw was pretty interesting was just 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.959 the same one that appears in the It's the riddle 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:51.720 of the Sphinx from from Oedipus, So that that appears 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:53.959 to be a cross cultural riddle. You know what has 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.360 four legs in the morning, two legs in the in 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.360 the noontime, and three legs in the evening. It is 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:01.680 a human, you know, because you're a baby and you crawl, 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:03.720 and then as an adult you walk on two legs, 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.079 and then an old age you use a cane. Oh 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:07.800 but I got one more for you, rob Okay, So 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.640 this one is on a sunny day, there are two. 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.480 On a sunless day, there is but one. On a 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:18.440 moonlit night, there are two. On a moonless night, there 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:25.560 is but one. I mean, I'm thinking about light and silhouettes, shadows. Yeah, 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:27.960 that's it. It's a shadow. Is it a shadow? Okay? Wait, 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.640 so the person's shadow. There are two of you on 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.120 a sunny day because you got a shadow, okay, I 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:34.960 got that, Okay, And then on a sun most day, 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.800 there's just you. There's no shadow. On a moonlight night, 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:39.960 there too, again, you have a shadow, and on a 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.920 moonless night it's too dark to see anything, right, should 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.320 there Yeah, there shouldn't even be one on a moonless night. 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.520 The stars are so bright. That's one thing I guess 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:50.680 we have to consider. I don't know for certain, but 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.320 it reminds me of things I've read about Egyptian mythology 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:58.480 and about how uh an often unobscured sky is so 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.520 central to uh, to the world view of of say, 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:05.560 ancient Egyptians. I wonder if that holds true in Mongolian 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.040 culture as well, because if you have like this brilliant 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.480 starlet sky and there's you know, less probability of cloud cover, 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.719 then perhaps that does illuminate things a little better. I 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.560 don't know. Yeah, certainly there's going to be less possibility 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.040 of you know, light pollution and artificial light kind of 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.360 creating these these deeper pockets of shadow. But why does 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:30.320 the tumbleweed under the wagon look like a goat? I 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:32.080 mean maybe it just has to do with like, once 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:34.960 it gets up here, it's not going to you know, 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.120 kick butt like a camel would like. It's going to 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:39.400 be more or less hiding underneath the cart like a 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:43.120 goat kind of Uh, it's gonna be this It's not 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:46.640 gonna be this bounding, brave looking thing. It's going to 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:51.280 be this meek uh little ball that's hiding around underneath 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:55.440 the carts or jammed under a wheel, et cetera. Mongolian 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.560 listeners right in teach us help us figure this one out. 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:01.840 By the way the sayings collected in this this this 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.400 book er, I mean in this paper also great. Uh, 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:06.680 here's an example one that kept jumping out of me 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.440 every time I sort of skimmed past it looking for tumbleweeds. 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:16.680 Men follow customs, dogs follow bones. I like that one. Yeah, 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:19.960 that is good. So if this implies a parallel in 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.760 the way that these things are followed, would it be 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:27.880 that humans go after social customs in a kind of driven, hungry, 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:31.360 instinctual way. You know, I'm not sure if that is 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:33.360 the way we're supposed to take this, or does it 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.920 mean that a dog of like just follows their gut 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.040 instinct and like, you know, follows immediate evidence. But men 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.160 have customs that they have to follow. Oh yeah, that's it. 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.560 That could be the contrast. But but but I I 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.320 find your interpretation interesting as well. I could. I guess 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.360 I could see it go either way. I guess there's 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:53.240 no comparative word in there. Doesn't say men follow customs 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.480 like dogs follow bones. Anyway, there are more of these 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:00.800 and if you're interested, again, it's Mongolian Folklore, a representative 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.600 collection from the oral literary tradition, Part one. And that's 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.520 a bit of one J store. So if you go 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.320 to J S t O R dot org you can 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:12.840 you can access it for free. I don't know if 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.560 you have to sign in. I like I I access 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.840 it da membership but um, but not a paid membership. 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.920 So go for it if you're interested. Okay, one more 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:25.040 one before we move on that this is just a proverb. 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.320 It's that children who grow up spoiled are more difficult 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.960 to handle than a bull's neck. Okay, what about a 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.400 bull's neck, though, I guess it's difficult to get your 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:38.480 hands around it, right, like a bull's neck can be 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.160 so thick that you can't even reach your arms around 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.600 it and like, you know, lock your your knuckles together. Yeah, yeah, 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:55.440 all right, So we're gonna we're gonna leave mongolian Um 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.600 wisdom aside here for a little bit. We're gonna get 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:01.880 back to more North America entails of the tumbleweed. And 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.040 so I was just you know, thinking at this point 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:06.919 you're probably going, well, geez, guys, I get the tumbleweeds 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.520 are bad, and uh, you know that sometimes they're like 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:11.960 a camel and sometimes like there a goat. Okay, fair enough, 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:16.160 but what do they mean for the proliferation of radioactive waste? Well, 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:20.959 we're glad you ask, because it's actually an interesting question. Uh. 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:23.480 And one of the things I found even more fascinating 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:27.040 about it is that they're The role that tumbleweeds play 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:31.960 in in our treatment of radioactive waste can vary greatly 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:35.360 depending on like what source you're looking at. Well, yeah, 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.000 and I think the radioactivity will play more into the 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.640 second example we're talking about them the first, which might 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:47.080 be more clearly classed as a case of toxic waste, right, yes, 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:51.880 but but both have to do with the leavings of 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:56.960 of the Atomic Age. Yeah. So the Atomic Ages we've 0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.119 discussed on the show before, especially I think the the 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.560 episode or episodes in question. Uh it was titled the 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:07.280 Atomic Scar. Uh. The Atomic Ages left various scars on 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.960 the planet, including radioactive waste that we have to seal 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:14.480 away and figure out how to Symbolically worn apocalyptic wanders 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.400 ten thousand years in the future that they shouldn't mess 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:20.720 with this because it's bad. Uh. So we're always looking 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.040 at for ways to secure it, to resecure it, to 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:28.240 clean it up, et cetera. Now you might remember another 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.719 episode we did titled The Tide of Gold, and in 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.560 that we discussed some sort of novel gold harvesting schemes 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:39.760 and ideas, and we discussed how plants can harvest gold 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.000 from the ground. Basically, the premise here is that some 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.280 plants have the ability to absorb minerals through their roots 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:52.840 and uh and uh and and concentrate metals such as nickel, uh, cadmium, 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:57.040 and zinc uh. These plants are also known as hyper accumulators. 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:00.680 There are no natural gold hyper accume ulators, but there 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.800 are ways to make it possible through soil manipulation. So 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.560 you like treat the soil that contains the gold in 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.600 a certain way, and you can sort of engineer it 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.440 so that certain plants that have this natural ability will 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:17.639 actually draw that gold up into their roots system. So 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.800 you can probably see where we're going here. Um, remember 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.560 how we mentioned that tumble weed roots can dive twenty 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.920 feet down into the soil. Well, as pointed out by 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:31.280 geologist Dana Ulmer Shoal of the New Mexico Institute of 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:36.160 Mining and Technology in SoCoRo, reporting to the US Geological 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:40.080 Society in two thousand and four, tumbleweed plants are actually 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.520 really good a't soaking up depleted uranium from contaminated soils 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.520 and weapons testing grounds and battlefields. Now this is interesting. 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.399 I guess we should do a little sidebar here on 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:55.840 depleted uranium because you might be wondering, okay, depleted uranium, 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:59.720 and you you hear that here uranium your weapons testing grounds, 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:04.439 and you might naturally think like, oh, nuclear bomb detonation sites. 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.879 But this is actually talking about something different. Uh. So, 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:13.920 depleted uranium is often used in heavy munitions as as 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:17.840 a metal, not as a a fissile material for a bomb, 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.280 but as a metal. And it's used in these munitions 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:25.720 because of its density and armor penetrating properties, so it's 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.840 you know, you can make a very dense projectile out 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:31.280 of it. I believe it is more than half again 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.320 as dense as leads something. It's like sixty something percent 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.480 more dense than lead is uh. And that density also 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.639 makes it useful for certain things in like the aeronautics field. 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:42.960 I think I've read that it's used sometimes as a 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:48.040 counterweight or counterbalance in some helicopter rotor blades, but it's 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:51.520 also used for plating and armored vehicles, again because it's 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.760 dense so it's more likely to stop a projectile, and 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:59.560 then also in creating shielding against radiation. But as as 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.560 am innisition in particular, I think depleted uranium is used 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:05.959 not just because it's dense, but because, say when it 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.879 hits the armor plating of a tank to try to 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.800 penetrate it, it has these properties where it tends to 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.480 kind of fragment in a way that that makes the 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:20.320 projectile sharper rather than blunt r And as it penetrates 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:22.919 through the armor plating of a of an armored vehicle, 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:26.639 it also tends to ignite and explode on the inside, 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:28.320 so it has a lot of properties that you would 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.680 want if you were trying to shoot through an armored vehicle. Now, 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.679 to pick up on the caveat I was giving earlier 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:40.000 about radioactivity, depleted uranium has very low levels of radioactivity. 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:44.040 It's actually it actually has less radioactivity then is typically 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:49.440 found in natural uranium. But uranium, whether natural or depleted uranium, 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:53.560 has significant chemical toxicity. So it is clear that it 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:56.560 is dangerous to ingest certain amounts of it beyond a 0:21:56.600 --> 0:22:00.159 certain threshold. But at least according to some sources, this 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:03.760 is not really because of radioactivity. UH, though there might 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:07.600 be some continuing controversy about the radiological effects in particular. 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:10.439 I'll mention a little more about that in a minute, UM, 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:12.280 but I was trying to look up. Okay, how does 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:16.359 it work? Well? According to the US Agency for Toxic 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:19.680 Substances and Disease Registry or the A T S d R, 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:24.040 which is a government agency under the under the umbrella 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:27.120 of the Health and Human Services Department, UH that they 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:29.720 put out a fact sheet on the health effects of uranium, 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:33.200 both known and under investigation, and they say that both 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.560 natural and depleted uranium have that they have the same 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:40.080 toxic effects within a human body. The primary of which 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:43.560