1 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. We use words that are perceived as 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: negative for women that actually are positive. If I say 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: you're too emotional, the positive you're actually just very passionate. 5 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: You say a strong woman, now nobody blinks an eye. 6 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: But if you say an empathetic man or a sensitive man, 7 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: that raises an eyebrow at least a little bit. I 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: like people to open the doors. I like people to 9 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: say I look nice. That's not an insult, that's not 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: something terrible. Feminists don't want that. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: anchor and NBC News correspondent, And this is Modern Rules 12 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: Today's episode Feminism. What does feminism look like? And who 13 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: actually gets to be a part of it? When we 14 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: say all of us, do we mean all of us? 15 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: Because women, whether we like it or not, we are 16 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: defined by our sex. We're limited by it. When we 17 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: talk about the rules, the guidelines for women, it's often 18 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: about our sexuality, how we dress, how we behave. I 19 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: don't know too many people who talk about how boys 20 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: behave and what they wear to work. And the bigger 21 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: question is if we really want to make a difference. 22 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: Can we do it at the edges with more conferences 23 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: and conversations, where do you have to burn the whole 24 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: house down together? On modern rules? We're gonna get into 25 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: feminism and the changing rules for women and men with 26 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: two of my favorite guests, Shelley's Alice and Michael Ian Black. 27 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: And there are some people who don't feel that these 28 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: changes include them or even respect their lifestyles. One of 29 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: those people's my mom my one and only Louise rule. 30 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: So something that you and I have often I found 31 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: disagreed on. I think you're the strongest woman. I know 32 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: you think I'm a strong woman. Yet if I said 33 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,519 Speaker 1: to you, mom, Louise, are you a feminist? What would 34 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: you say? No? Why? What do you think of feminist? Is? 35 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: I think a person that's not satisfied in the role 36 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: that women play. I know the role that women are 37 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: longing to get, and they strive for it differently than 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: I would as a woman. They seem to think they 39 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: have to come in like a gang buster. They seem 40 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: to think they have to shove the fact that the 41 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: women down everybody's throat, instead of being accomplished in your 42 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: own right. Whether you're a woman or not. They seem 43 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: to think they have to push it, push you push it, 44 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: and you don't have to push it. I like people 45 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: to open the doors. I like people to say I 46 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: look nice. That's not an insult, that's not something terrible. 47 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: Feminists don't want that we're equal. No, I want somebody 48 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: to say I look nice yesterday. That doesn't mean I 49 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: look like horror the day before. I like compliments. I 50 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: like to be appreciated. And women don't think that's necessary. 51 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: They think that's kind of like demeaning, and it's not demeaning. 52 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: But don't you think this is a confusing time because 53 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: you want me, your daughter to go to work, and 54 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: you believe in me, and you think I should absolutely 55 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: have the right to be the most senior person in 56 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: my company. You think I deserve to be the highest 57 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: paid person if that's what my work warrants. But then 58 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: after work, you also think that a guy should get 59 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: on his knee and proposed to me and buy me 60 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: a big ring, and then we go to dinner he 61 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: should pick up the tab. Isn't that confusing? The word 62 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,839 Speaker 1: deserve comes into all that, and deserves on the back 63 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: end of what you just said as well, as the 64 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: front end. You deserve a big ring, You deserve him 65 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: to be on the knee. That's that's that's like, that's 66 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: what men do well because that's a traditional proposal. And 67 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: I'm a traditionalist. You just said that. But if you're 68 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: a traditionalist and at the same time you believe in 69 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: me and you think I should make the money and 70 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: have the big job, which if you deserve it, but 71 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: which one should be given it big because you're a woman. No, 72 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: of course not. But I'm saying, but that's what feminists do. 73 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: In some cases, they don't think they've been equally treated 74 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: because they were women. If they deserve it, they should 75 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: always got Do you think women today are treated equally 76 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: in some arenas? Yes, and some absolutely not? And what 77 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: arenas do you think women are treated equally? I think 78 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: in in business, you think we're treated equally. If they 79 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: deserve it and have earned it, it shouldn't just be 80 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: given to them. You know this, Every promotion I've ever gotten, 81 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: every big trade I've ever done, everywhere I go, people 82 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: have always assumed she must have slept with somebody to 83 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: get that. You know, people think that of me? Yes, 84 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: so I don't get treated equal? No, No, that's a 85 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: perception on their part. You have earned everything, You've gotten it. 86 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: I know that for a fact, because I know how 87 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: hard working you are. People assume a lot of things, 88 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: especially women against women. So how do you how have 89 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: you dealt with that all these years? Right? People have 90 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: often thought the worst of someone like me, and you 91 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: know that, And what do you think of that? I 92 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: think it's a fool assumption. It's a terrible disgrace that 93 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: people so judgmental when they don't know the facts, but 94 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: they're quick to use their tongues to be cutting to 95 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: other people. The biggest weapon people have as a tongue, 96 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: you know, that can kill many No guns, no knives, 97 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: the tongue. But maybe the idea of a feminist mom 98 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: is someone who just wants everyone to get their own, 99 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: to get an equal shot. You don't think that's what 100 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: feminists too? Maybe you don't in your mind you think 101 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: a feminist as a fighter. It's a pusher. It's a 102 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: person that thinks they're deserving of it, whether they are 103 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: deserving them And I don't think so. I think you 104 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: really have to earn it. You don't just get it 105 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: because you're a woman like I don't think that because 106 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: they're not enough women on the fire department, you should 107 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: become a fire I mean, if there's a man's two 108 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: hund pounds on the roof and you gave a girl, 109 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: that's a woman that's five to she's not gonna be 110 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: able to carry that man down. But she should have 111 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: a job as a firefighter. Maybe because she might be 112 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: five too, but she might be just as strong as 113 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: he is. But maybe not because they want to make 114 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: heaven more women on the fire department. Why do you 115 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: think that? I mean people love to say like, oh, 116 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: there's this war on men. Do you think there's a 117 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: war on men right now? I think women are are 118 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: really taking down men and they're taking their dignity way 119 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: by being so aggressive in their way of how they 120 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: are with men. But how come men are allowed to 121 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: be super aggressive and women aren't. Well, not all men 122 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: are super aggressive, and some women back right off from 123 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: that from aggressive men. Give me tell me how you 124 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: think women were negating so hard to take men's dignity away, 125 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: Because it's not just you. I hear this all the time, 126 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: I just don't actually see it anywhere. Well. I think 127 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: they feel that, you know, because we're dating or going out, 128 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: I don't have to have the meals or get by 129 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: the food. Oh and you know, you see these men 130 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: in the grocery stores now with babies hanging around their 131 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: necks and they're getting the list of what to buy. 132 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: What you know, do they have to do that too 133 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,679 Speaker 1: when the woman is maybe you know, in a yoga class. Yeah, 134 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: let me tell you, as a working mom, I sure 135 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: as hell need my husband to push a stroller and 136 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: go to the grocery store. Why should I have the 137 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: same college education men do work my ass off the 138 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: same way they do. And because I'm the woman, I 139 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: should have to push the stroller and go to the 140 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: grocery store. Why can't I ask a man to do that? 141 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: You said you were working. If you're working, if the 142 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: woman is going to yoga and he's in the grocery 143 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: store with a baby hanging around his neck and walking 144 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: up and down, the difference. But you but hold on 145 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: a second, you think that yoga doing stay at home 146 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: mom whose husband is at the store. Do you think 147 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: she's the feminist or is the feminist a lot more 148 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,679 Speaker 1: likely to be somebody like me who's saying, why can't 149 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: my husband be the class parent. Why can't my husband 150 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: be on the email from school. I'm not sure that 151 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: there's that many feminists who are living in the suburbs 152 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: going to Name and Marcus at lunch while their husband's 153 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: picking up the kids at school. I think the feminists 154 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: are in the workplace saying I deserve the big job, 155 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: and I shouldn't have to take a back seat because 156 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: the boss is a guy. No, they shouldn't have to 157 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: take a back seat if the boss is a guy, 158 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: if they deserve the job. But do you really think 159 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: there's that many examples of a woman got this just 160 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: because she's a woman. Really, they're more nailed than it 161 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: be before. Yeah, and I guess, but there's always been 162 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: over history countless men who get jobs because they're buddies, 163 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: because they're girlfriends, because look at my husband. Right, Well, 164 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: I went to the same school, so let's just stay 165 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: right here. I went to public school in New Jersey. 166 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: My husband went to the fanciest private school there is. 167 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: He went to Princeton. I went to Lehigh. He played 168 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: lacrosse at Princeton. That's the strongest network there is. He 169 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: and I both end up in investment banking, and when 170 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: we walk onto a trading floor. He looks to the right, 171 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: and he looks to the left, and there's a zillion 172 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: guys who looked just like him, saying, come on, Andy, 173 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: come sit on our desk, let's teach you, let's help you. 174 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: There were no public school girls from Jersey helping me 175 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: do that. So when you say, well, we don't want 176 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: a woman to get an opportunity just because she's a woman, 177 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: what about all the guys who have gotten opportunities forever 178 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: because they're sports friends, are school friends, are because they're rich. 179 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: It's the good old boy network. Yes, So why is 180 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: the good old boy network okay? And feminism isn't? I 181 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: didn't say the good old boy network is okay? You 182 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: are driven, You did it on your own. You didn't 183 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: sleep with anybody. You spent a lot of hours. You 184 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 1: can in a lot of time, and you could enter 185 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: a room and make your own mark without having the 186 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: good old boys circling around. Wrong with the idea If 187 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: a company looks around and says, man, everybody who works here, 188 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: the majority of people who work here are guys. We 189 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: need to get some women in the mix. What's wrong 190 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 1: with that? There's nothing wrong with it. If you deserve it, 191 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: not because you know you should just do it because 192 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: they're not enough women in the viewing audience, in the 193 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: group there, that's that's not why you should get it. 194 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: You should be the best that you can be in 195 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: that job to get it. So when you looked at 196 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: the Women's March, that's not something you would want to participe. 197 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely not. Why not because I don't have to make 198 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: a difference in my life or how I feel, or 199 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: what my how I'm moving along as a woman without 200 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: parading up and down or carrying out with a group 201 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: or screaming and yelling in the streets. I don't have 202 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: to do that. I can make a difference in my 203 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: own way as a woman, which I did in the past. Again, 204 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: you're the strongest woman I know. Does that make me 205 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: weak because I don't want to march? Does that make 206 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: me weak because I don't want to be in a 207 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: group that that has a mission? Do you feel like 208 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: feminists over the years have shown enough respect or been 209 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: inclusive to people like you who lived a traditional life. No, 210 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: absolutely not. They think behind the ape ball. They think 211 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: I should be more forward, They think I should be 212 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: more forward thinking. They don't think that somebody has to 213 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: hold the door up in me. I like those niceties. 214 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: They don't think that counts. Do you think working women 215 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: judge women who stay at home? Absolutely? What do we 216 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: think of you and that you settled? You don't have 217 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: a very big place in this world. You're not gonna 218 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: make much of a difference. You're not gonna make an impact. 219 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: We are we are the future. Do you think you settled? Uh? 220 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 1: In some ways, I didn't go to my where I 221 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: could have gone. But you also didn't have the opportunity 222 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: back that right. But I'm saying I think I would 223 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: have had a different Uh, carved my life out somewhat differently. 224 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: I don't regret what I did, but I think I 225 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 1: would have carved my life aut differently if I had 226 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: my own weight off my head, my own independence to do. 227 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: You pushed your daughters to be absolutely always because I 228 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: didn't do it for me, so I wanted to make 229 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: sure they did for them. I remember being a little 230 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: girl and driving to the train station to drop Daddy 231 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: off and sitting next to you in the car, and 232 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: I can remember, even though I was much closer to 233 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: you than I I was him, thinking I don't want 234 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: her life. I want his life. He gets on a 235 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: train and he goes to New York City and he 236 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: has a whole other world, and this lady is stuck 237 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: with me all day. Could you feel that I felt 238 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: that way? Well? I think you felt limited because we 239 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: didn't do all the things that that big adventure that 240 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: he took every day. We didn't take that adventure every day. 241 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: Our drive was very ordinary, very basic, very predictable. His 242 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: was not even going on the train and was not predictable. 243 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: How important was it for you for your daughters to 244 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: be financially independent, financially independent and educated and your own person, 245 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: whether you marry or don't marry, or have a partner, 246 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: whatever you want to do. I always wanted you to 247 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: be independent as far as finance goes and education goes. 248 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: Do you see a change in the way that you 249 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: raised me and how I'm raising Drew? How well? Because 250 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: you're offering her so many opportunities that I couldn't afford 251 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: to with you and your sister, and I didn't think 252 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: that that was necessarily the end all to be well, 253 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: But now that so many things have changed, I think 254 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: that is the end all to be well. So something 255 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: that was such a big part of my life. I 256 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: was a cheerleader and Miss park Ridge and exactly I 257 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: was a cheerleader and a homecoming queen. Do you think 258 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: I'm ashamed of those things now? I don't think you 259 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: think they count? And I think that's part of the foundation. See, 260 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: I think people forget about the foundation of all of us. 261 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: You build on the foundation, and they want to break 262 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: the foundation and start a new You can't. Buildings don't 263 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: work like that, Pyramids don't work like that. You have 264 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: to build on the foundation. There was some very, very 265 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: good parts of this foundation that people just want to 266 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: knock down and say, let's start all over again. We've 267 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: got so much more to talk about. We'll be right 268 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: back after a quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. 269 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: We all have that one friend when it comes to 270 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: issues they care about, they say whatever is on their mind, 271 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: no matter how popular or unpopular it is. On the 272 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: subject of women in the workplace and feminism, I have 273 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: got to go to the outspoken CEO, founder and creator 274 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: of the Seminal Movement for Professional Women, Shelley Zalice, the 275 00:13:53,880 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: founder of the Female Quotient. We talked so much about women, women, women, 276 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: I want you to tell me do you consider yourself 277 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: a feminist? Wow? That's such a good question. First of all, 278 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: I just I love having conversations with you, Stephanie, because 279 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: it's so raw and real, and I think that's what 280 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: it takes to to activate change. So thank you for 281 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: having me today. Thank you. But I love that right 282 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: there when I say, Shelley, are you a feminist? You pause? 283 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: Is it because you don't want a label? You don't 284 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: need a label? I just think that sometimes words carry 285 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: meaning and we live in legacy challenges And so for 286 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: me feminism, which I applaud and I'm so proud of 287 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: glorious steinhum I say feminism. One point oh women supporting women, 288 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: women finding their voice? Am I a feminist? Absolutely? I 289 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: call that she for she feminism? Two point oh United 290 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: Nations Emma Watson, he for she? Bringing men into the conversation? 291 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: Am I a feminist? Yes? I am. The challenge I 292 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: have with that is, once we say he for she, 293 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: we're inequal. That means we need men to come to 294 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: our rescue and save us. So I have respelled and 295 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: redefined feminism. Three point oh f E M E N 296 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: I s M. I put the word men in feminism. 297 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: Modern feminism must include men. I call it we for weight. 298 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: We're all in this together. Gender equality is not a 299 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: female issue. It's a social and economic issue. But are 300 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: all women in this together? Because when I look at 301 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: my mom, for example, a stay at home mom, who 302 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: is the strongest woman I know, who's devoted herself to 303 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: her kids, and she's a fighter, she repels the idea 304 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: of feminism. She thinks feminists are angry, fighting, marching. And 305 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: the thing that amazes me most, she's not unique in 306 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: that she thinks that feminists judge her too strong. Modern 307 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: working women today actually the honor that traditional stay at 308 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: home woman. Well, first of all, I think that staying 309 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: at home is a choice. And I actually just told 310 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: someone this. I didn't think when I was I'm fifty 311 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: seven years old. Thanks very so to you, But I 312 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: really thought to myself, when I do have children, I 313 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: probably will not be able to work because I wanted 314 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: to be right. I mean, it's true, I I really 315 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: didn't think that would be me. And then I realized 316 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: that I loved what I was doing, I had purpose, 317 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: I had passion, and and it was a choice for 318 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: me to stay in the workplace. I did have to 319 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: figure out how to redefine work life balance as well. 320 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: And so I have never judged anyone. I actually feel 321 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: like in my kids school, I might have been judged 322 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: by stay at home moms that looked at me traveling, 323 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: working um and I was I still am. I'm a 324 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: great mom. I might not be a quote unquote normal mom. 325 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: I'm not a classic textbook mom from you know those days, 326 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: but I'm a great mom. I'm just a mom my 327 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: way and very connected to my children. And I never 328 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: missed the meetings that I needed to be at in 329 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: the school events and you know all of that. But 330 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: how about that judgment, right, we talk about women being sisters, 331 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: but moms are a great example. There is a bit 332 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: of a working mom mafia versus a stay at home 333 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: mom mafia. And it's not all, but that exact piece 334 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: of judgment that you're talking about, it exists. Listen. We 335 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: don't live in a perfect world, and even historically in 336 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: the workplace, women have not supported other women. Can we 337 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 1: just say that out loud? We don't want to say 338 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: that we're in this all women are sisters, were all 339 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: in this together, Kelly, we have to say out loud 340 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: since the dawn of time, there have been women stabbing 341 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: one another in the back, especially back in the day 342 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: in the workplace when there were so few women. A 343 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: lot who were there wanted to stay in the minority 344 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: because they like that specialness well, and there was such 345 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: a scarcity of jobs at the top and so few women, 346 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: we tended to compete with one another, or maybe not 347 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: explicitly competing, but it's who's going to get ahead, who's 348 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 1: going to get that seat at the table, and and 349 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: maybe our behaviors or maybe we just didn't really have 350 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: the environment to spend time and support one another, and 351 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: we never had these open conversations. You know, my favorite quote, 352 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: trying to be a man is a waste of a 353 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: woman Sarah Jessica Parker, and I don't know how she 354 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: does it. I love that quote. I've always been playing 355 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: in a man's world until I realized that those rules 356 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: just don't work for me. And I need to bring 357 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: my best self to the table and be me. And 358 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: I don't need to wear a suit and a tie 359 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: and go to play golf to fit in. But stay 360 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: on that you don't have to be a man. But 361 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: we are defined by our sex. Okay, so take yourself 362 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: to the workplace. One could say, use your femininity to 363 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: your benefit. We use words that are perceived as negative 364 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: for women that actually are positive. If I say, um, 365 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: you're too emotional, the positive, you're actually just very passionate. 366 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: You're too bossy, No, you're actually the boss. Or you're assertive, 367 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: you're an introvert. Now you're you're actually not, you're thoughtful. 368 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: You know, lots of negative connotations. Why do we get 369 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: judged when we use attributes that that can be construed 370 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: in the wrong way. And if you're a woman who 371 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: dresses how she wants and I don't mean unprofessionally, or 372 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: who builds close relationships with senior people in business who 373 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: most often end up being men, people make the assumption 374 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: she must be sleeping with him, he must have a 375 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: crush on her. That's plagued women our whole lives, but 376 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: also perception. If we believe, it becomes our reality. Right, 377 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 1: And we've been apologizing for who we are and how 378 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: we behave. And I remember I must have been twenty 379 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: eight years old, long long, long time ago, and I 380 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: was meeting this woman named Penelope Queen, and she was 381 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: the head of research for a big agency she had 382 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: for Sacy Sacy. She had a hundred people working for her, 383 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: and I couldn't believe that I was going to be 384 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: able to have lunch with her. I was so excited. 385 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: I put on this suit, you know, very professional corporate suit, 386 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: and I put my hair in a ponytail, like a refrigerator, 387 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 1: one of those suits with a bow. And never forget this, 388 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: I put my hair in a pony and I walk 389 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: in and I say, I'm here to see Penelope Queen. 390 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 1: And they escorted me to this table and there's this 391 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: woman who was dropped it gorgeous with flowing brunette hair 392 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 1: and a purple leather suit, you know, a little jacket 393 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: and little skirt, and I'm like your Penelope Queen. And 394 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: I remember pulling my hair out of my pone need 395 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: tail and like having this moment where I can be 396 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: feminine and still win and do it my way without 397 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: permission and without thinking that there's this rule book that 398 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: I don't know where it came from. I've never read 399 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: that I'm supposed to behave like a man and act 400 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: like a man. Where did those rules come from? That 401 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: was a perception of mine, and from that moment, on. 402 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: I owned my strength, I stood in my power, and 403 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: I moved forward with positivity, proactivity and breaking every rule 404 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: that made no sense to me. We've got so much 405 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: more to talk about. We'll be right back after a 406 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. Inevitably, these conversations 407 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: take you to what this means for men. Hear about 408 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: toxic masculinity. Conservative media continues to go on and on 409 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: about this war on men. It doesn't sound pretty. I'm 410 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: not sure it's even real. To get into that. I 411 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: tapped my friend, actor, comedian activist Michael ian Black, take 412 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: me inside being a white guy. It's great. There's also 413 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: a huge amount of pressure within being a guy to 414 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 1: be that alpha. Right. If you look at what it's 415 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 1: like for young boys, they don't have license to be emotional. 416 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: When does it start? How does it exist that? Here's 417 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: how boys operate, and your idol should be the rock. 418 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: It starts pre utero, it starts before you're born, it 419 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: starts with the parents. Let's say it starts with that 420 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: moment when the doctor says it's a boy or it's 421 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: a girl, And suddenly, whether you're conscious of it or not, 422 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: your world clicks just slightly and certain expectations then start 423 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: to fall into place about who that person is going 424 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: to be based solely on their biology. We do it 425 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: from the moment when you're in the hospital and they 426 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: swaddle your new baby boy your new baby girl in 427 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: a little pink blanket or a little blue blanket, and 428 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: that's creating a kind of binary set of expectations for 429 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: that kid. I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with 430 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: with literally identifying this is a boy this is a girl, 431 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: of course not. But there's so much that comes attached 432 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: to that um that is so deeply rooted. In hundreds 433 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: you could say thousands, but I think you can make 434 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: an argument that actually literally only hundreds of years of 435 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: history um starting in the really in the Industrial Revolution 436 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: for reasons that we won't get into, but it starts immediately. 437 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: And what that is, specifically is a lane which and 438 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: it's a language of masculinity, and the language dictates a 439 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: kind of social hierarchy that every boy has to fit 440 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: himself into. And the language of masculinity is a language 441 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: of dominance. So when a boy is growing up and 442 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: trying to figure himself out, he's constantly feeling pressure to 443 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: exert that dominance in one form or another, or to 444 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: retreat entirely from it, and girls don't have it in 445 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: the same way. Girls have other pressures. But I don't 446 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: think femininity the way it's currently constructed especially is nearly 447 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,959 Speaker 1: as hierarchical as masculinity. No, but there's a whole lot 448 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: of pressure. Absolutely, there's a whole lot of pressure. And 449 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: some of that pressure has to do with the language masculinity. 450 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: Some of that pressure a wider that pressure has to 451 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,959 Speaker 1: do with the way men relate to women. But also 452 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: I see what you're saying in terms of boy activities 453 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: versus girl activities. If a girl decides she wants to 454 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: play sport or do things that are traditionally boys, nobody 455 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: judges it. And when a young boy joins my daughter's 456 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: ballet class, it raises an eyebrow. But what you're describing 457 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: is is a phenomena of the last let's say sixty 458 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: years since you know, the popular wave of feminism that 459 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: swept through in the early to mid sixties, and that 460 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: movement started a conversation about what is the role of 461 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: women In the same way, I hope that the current 462 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: environment is starting a conversation about what is the role 463 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: of men? And incidentally that that conversation that's happening now 464 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: about men is a direct outcome of the conversation that 465 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: started sixty years ago about what is the role of women? 466 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: Because women have progressed so much, they're now outpacing men 467 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: in so many different areas that men have to reconcile 468 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: with our roles because we're seeing women's achievements in a 469 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: lot of ways eclipse our own. Not that it's competitive 470 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: in that way that you're saying it's one against the other, 471 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: but men are now adrift in a way and unmoored 472 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: in a way because there are spheres of influence that 473 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: we owned the workplace, for example, or the military or 474 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: whatever politics. We're now seeing women take a lot of 475 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: those positions, and we have to figure out what to 476 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: do for ourselves. We're looking at a revolution, hopefully in 477 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: the way humans think of themselves as humans, where we're 478 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,719 Speaker 1: hopefully removing some of these binary choices between being masculine 479 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: and being feminine. A good male leader, as you just said, 480 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: has to be a good listener. A good female leader 481 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: has to be strong. Strength isn't masculine. Empathy isn't feminine. 482 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: And we've seen the way we think about women change 483 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: a lot in the last sixty years, where if you 484 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: say a strong woman, now nobody blinks an eye. But 485 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: if you say an empathetic man or a sensitive man, 486 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 1: as you said about the boy who joins the ballet company, 487 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: that raises an eyebrow at least a little bit. And 488 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: so these are things we have to overcome in order 489 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: to just become better people. So here's what I'm hearing 490 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: on feminism. It has got baggage. Even for the most powerful, 491 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: articulate women out there. This thing is complicated and it 492 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: is not one size fits all. Listen, there's not one 493 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: woman who is alike to the woman next to her. 494 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: So to try to put this all under one umbrella, 495 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: it is way more complicated than that. Feminism doesn't have 496 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 1: a uniform or an identity. You can wear stiletto heels 497 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: and still kick somebody's asking them. You can have dinner 498 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: with a guy, but it doesn't mean he can touch 499 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: her knee on the ride home. But what I've learned 500 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: is this thing is evolving and it's not black and white. 501 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: And what am I gonna do, at least in my 502 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: life and my workplace. I'm not going to let it 503 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: be black and white, because when situations are black and white, 504 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: more people shut down and get out of the conversation. 505 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: Men are still controlling the majority of big jobs and 506 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: big money and power in the world. I do not 507 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: want them to be out of this conversation. And if 508 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: we push them into the corner and make them the 509 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: villain here, we're not going to progress. What I'm gonna 510 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: do is try to figure out a way to understand 511 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: more women so we can broaden out the umbrella. Because 512 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,919 Speaker 1: I'd like to think that everyone has a woman in 513 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: their life or is a woman who wants to live 514 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: our best life. This has been our conversation on feminism. 515 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, bringing an open mind, and helping me 516 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: create the modern rules. That's it for today's episode. I'm 517 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: your host, Stephanie Rule. A very very special thanks to 518 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: the extraordinary people who made this happen. My producers Julie Brown, 519 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: Samantha Ullen, and Anne Bark, Audio, Michael Biett for booking 520 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: and wrangling, the amazing guests who joined us, Julian Weller 521 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: for editing and bill plaques, Michael Azar and Jacobo Penzo 522 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: for their recording expertise special thanks to Steve Lick Todd, 523 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: Barbara Rap, Jonathan Waldrie Dugo, Holly traz Nikki Etre, and 524 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: Christina Everett. Our executive producers are Conald Byrne and Mangesh Hatigador, 525 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: and of course, the men who brought us all together, 526 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: Chairman and CEO of I Heart Media, Bob Pittman and 527 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 1: Chairman of NBC News Andy Lack. For more podcasts from 528 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 529 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows