1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: My own black of dollar has gone on overlanding Rentro. 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: I don't know I. 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 2: Ninth Planet Audio cat com We're overlanding, You're Nolan. 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 3: Over We're halfway through our quest to change the Boone 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 3: County Rebels to the Boone County Biscuits or whatever, really 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 3: anything that isn't rooted in the Confederacy. We've talked with historians, 7 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 3: we've talked with designers, we've talked with people who want 8 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 3: to make real change in the Florence, Kentucky community. But 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 3: there's one group of people we haven't heard from. 10 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 4: Like almost average school has some type of cat. 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 3: If you can't tell from my nervous laughter, I'm talking 12 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 3: to real life high school students in Florence, Kentucky about 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 3: their mascots. I got to sit down with a few students, 14 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 3: not from Boone County, but from nearby Connor High School, 15 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 3: mostly because their moms made them. Connor is home of 16 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,639 Speaker 3: the Cougars. There are, as noted, a lot of big 17 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 3: cats in the area. But I wanted to know what 18 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 3: they thought the role of a mask it was, and 19 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 3: if you could change the mascots, what would you change 20 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 3: them to. 21 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 4: I don't really know what I would change it to, 22 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 4: but definitely something that represents school as a whole, but 23 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 4: also something that like encourages people to be kind of funny. 24 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 2: Like some of the mascots just stand there. 25 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 5: Yeah. 26 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 6: Yeah, it should be able to adit. 27 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 2: They're not like engaging. 28 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 6: It's kind of like a boring concert. 29 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 4: Most people at our school do like it. 30 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 5: Yeah. It gives people like like a base to say 31 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 5: that they went to that school. They don't just say, oh, yeah, 32 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 5: I was a part of that Connor High. 33 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 4: School basketball team. 34 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 5: It makes it sound more important. 35 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: I guess I was like appreciated. 36 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, how important is it for you to have like 37 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 3: a physical mascot like in the school or like at 38 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 3: the games and stuff. 39 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 4: I feel like it gets us more involved, like with 40 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 4: the school a little bit. 41 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: It just makes us feel like more into it. Yeah, 42 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: I feel like we're more a part of it. 43 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 5: Yeah. 44 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 4: I feel like the mascot kind of represents me in 45 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 4: a sense, like I'm not actually the audience. 46 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, they get it, you get it. A mascot isn't 47 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 3: just a silly costume. It's a big deal for school spirit. 48 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,399 Speaker 3: And here's the thing it cuts both ways. A bad 49 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 3: mascot can make you feel like an outsider, like you'll 50 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 3: never quite belong. But a good mascot it's something you 51 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 3: can rally around, something you can high five or even hug. 52 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 3: A good mascot makes all the difference. And today we're 53 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 3: going to learn what makes them work from some of 54 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 3: the people who have created the most memorable mascots of 55 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 3: all time. 56 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: I was a leady rebel, like, what does that even need? 57 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 6: The Boon County Rebels will stay the Boone County Rebels, 58 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 6: but the image ofts. 59 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 3: Right here in black and white and friends bigger than 60 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:45,959 Speaker 3: a flag or mascot. 61 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 5: Anytime you're trying to mess with tradition, you get to 62 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 5: be ready for serious. 63 00:02:50,400 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 3: Backgrounds from Ninth Planet Audio. I'm Akila Hughes and this 64 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 3: is Rebel Spirit, Episode five Mascots, and. 65 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 7: I don't want to rain on your biscuit parade again. 66 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 3: This is Jay Becker from BLDG in Covington, Kentucky. 67 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 7: I had my fortieth three union last weekend, and I 68 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 7: said to somebody, what if the name of our high 69 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 7: school team had been the Biscuits. They're like, I wouldn't 70 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 7: have come to this, It was like, or I probably 71 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 7: wouldn't have gone to that school. Wow, because high schools 72 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 7: are pride points for young people. This is why we 73 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 7: have to change it. 74 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 3: Okay, so Jay hates the Biscuits, I get it, but 75 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 3: he knows that the rebels have to change. So while 76 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 3: he and his team at BLDG gives some thought to 77 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 3: how to help us make change, I wanted to understand 78 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 3: just how out there some mascot names get. 79 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: Baseball goes back to the eighteen hundreds, and they've got 80 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: some crazy names, like the food Sufferers. It's like the 81 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: salary pickers and the fruit pickers. 82 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 3: And this enthusiastic voice belongs to Terry Burning, author of 83 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: the website mascot dB dot com, a free searchable database 84 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 3: of team names and mascots. 85 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: All that's fascinating gets data to me and like, let's 86 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: try to get this all into like this big thing 87 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: that everybody can look at. Started with high school just 88 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 2: you know, wanting to get that information on retired high 89 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 2: school mascots, but it definitely blossomed. It's a hobby for me. 90 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 2: I don't make any money from this really, just enough 91 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 2: really from advertising to support the site. 92 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 3: And of course the big question for Terry. 93 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 2: I found like two hundred and fifty two instances of 94 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 2: high schools throughout the ages that have used rebels as 95 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: their mascot, And out of those two hundred and fifty two, 96 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: I found that one hundred and fifty two are still active. Now. 97 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: I just I went especially throughout the Old South, and 98 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 2: I really updated did some research and found which of 99 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: those have changed. I didn't focus so much on all 100 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: the states because I didn't have the time to do that, 101 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: so that one hundred fifty might be a little bit 102 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,239 Speaker 2: lower than that. But I did find like a good 103 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: dozen throughout the last especially ten years that have changed 104 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 2: from rebels to things such as the Huskies, the Hawks, 105 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: Red Hawks, Wolves, or wolf Pack. A couple did the Titans. 106 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 3: What a relief, So it can happen. Schools can really change, 107 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 3: and they changed to some expected choices big cats, wild animals, etc. 108 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 3: I doubt any have changed to the Biscuits, right. 109 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 2: There's actually a famous minor league team, the Montgomery Biscuits. 110 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: Shout out to them. They're actually one of the most 111 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: popular minor league teams. They do very well with merchandising, 112 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 2: so you might be onto something there, like the Montgomery 113 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 2: Biscuits used to be something else. 114 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 3: Guess what the Montgomery Biscuits were before they were the Biscuits, 115 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 3: the Rebels. Montgomery was represented in the Southern League by 116 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 3: a team called the Rebels in the late sixties through 117 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty. Then they had no team until the Biscuits 118 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: became Montgomery's first Major League Baseball affiliated team in two 119 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 3: thousand and four. The owners selected the team's nickname from 120 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 3: over four thousand entries and name the team contest. The 121 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 3: official team colors are butter and blue. Their mascots are 122 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 3: Monty and anthropomorphized buttermilk biscuit, and on field they have 123 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 3: big mo, an orange ant eater that loves biscuits hard. 124 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 3: Same speaking of large, giant orange mascots. 125 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 5: You bring kids to the game and they could care 126 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 5: less about what's going on, but like they come home 127 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 5: with a Gritty T shirt and they saw Gritty on 128 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 5: the screen or they got to meet him, and then 129 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 5: like you have that connection to the team that when 130 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 5: you grow up, it just never leaves. 131 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 3: Brian Allen is an illustrator and creative director living in 132 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 3: the bellefont area of Pennsylvania. He's worked with major brands 133 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 3: and bands like Metallica, Hulk Hogan, and Activision. But his 134 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 3: most famous creation is the Philadelphia Flyers mascot Gritty. 135 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 5: I don't know many names of mascots, you know. I mean, 136 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 5: I know the fanatic, I know Gritty. There's something about 137 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 5: his name where people who don't even follow hockeys still 138 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 5: know him and it just clicks because he is a 139 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 5: gritty looking creature. The story of Gritty that they made 140 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 5: up was that he was born in the basement of 141 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 5: the stadium or something like that, and like he would eat, 142 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 5: he would eat hot dogs that fell through the bleachers, 143 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 5: and that's how he survived for years until for some 144 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 5: reason he came up. 145 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 3: Gritty, for the uninitiated, is the NHL mascot for the 146 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 3: Philadelphia Flyers. He's a neon orange monster with a cascading 147 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 3: orange beard and cookie monster style googly eyes that look 148 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 3: more deranged serial killer than Sesame Street. While most mascots 149 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 3: are there for fun and to take pictures with kids, 150 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 3: Gritty has more of an edge, very much in line 151 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 3: with the culture of Philly, a city whose sports fans 152 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 3: have a well deserved rowdy reputation. He deliberately shoots T 153 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 3: shirts at fans, slips on the ice a little too often, 154 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 3: and has cultivated an unapologies deetically assertive social media presence, 155 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 3: but Gritty almost didn't exist. 156 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 5: I had someone from the Flyers marketing team reach out 157 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 5: to me just a few months actually, before they were 158 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 5: going to release Gritty. At the time, I didn't know 159 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 5: that the Flyers were even creating a mascot. It was secret. 160 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 5: They had been working with another company before they worked 161 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 5: with me. They weren't liking what they were getting because 162 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,239 Speaker 5: everything they were getting was kind of friendlier and nicer. 163 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 5: And they found some artwork of mine that I had 164 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 5: done for another team or I think it was a commercial, 165 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 5: and I had a tiger that was kind of had 166 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 5: an attitude to it, and they really liked that because 167 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 5: when they hired me, they told me that they wanted 168 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 5: Gritty to be somebody that you wanted a high five, 169 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 5: but not hug So he had to have a little 170 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 5: bit of toughness. And I keep almost saying gritty because 171 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 5: that's how we described it a first. It's like we 172 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 5: wanted him to have a little grit and be gritty. 173 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 5: But that was before they picked his name. 174 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 3: There wasn't a lot of time left, and so Brian 175 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 3: did what Brian does best. He drew a lot. 176 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 5: I drew all different types of monsters, but I also 177 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 5: drew weird things like we played with the idea of 178 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 5: a bat at first, or I drew like an old pilot, 179 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 5: like an old Barren pilot, just trying to think of 180 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 5: anything that connected with the Flyers. There was a bulldog, 181 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 5: there was like a tough like hockey goon guy. But 182 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 5: the ones that really stuck were the monsters, the just 183 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 5: sort of weird amorphous creatures that you had, no you 184 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 5: didn't know what gender they were, you didn't know what 185 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 5: species they were. Got one actually that looked pretty similar 186 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 5: to what Gritty looks like now from that first batch. 187 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 3: You know, perfection when you see it right, well almost. 188 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 5: He had wings at one point, like so then you 189 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 5: put wings on him and you start thinking like are 190 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 5: they feathered wings? Are they insect wings? Then then we 191 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 5: decided ings wings were really dumb and we took them off. 192 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 3: Luckily, Brian Drew and re drew working with the art 193 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 3: director of The Flyers until finally Gritty was Gritty. They 194 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 3: eventually ended up with a three D turnaround drawing where 195 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 3: you can see a front, side and back view that 196 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 3: Brian handed off to the costume company to sculpt it 197 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 3: into life. Brian saw Gritty at the same time we 198 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 3: all did, when he skated out on the ice for 199 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 3: the first time. And this moment, the moment that Gritty 200 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 3: was first introduced to the world, was why I wanted 201 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 3: to talk with Brian, because well, everyone loves Gritty. 202 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 5: Now. 203 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 3: When he was first introduced, well, all. 204 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 7: The Philadelphia Flyers have it in mascot. Fans are saying, what. 205 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: Uh that's seven foot. 206 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 7: Tall Gritty Britty unveiled today in front of a group 207 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 7: of kids probably scot for life. 208 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 8: Yeah, those kids should be scorned for life. 209 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 3: Gritzy is fucking horrific. 210 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 8: The Philadelphia Flyers are being mocked online for their new 211 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 8: team mascot, which is a seven foot tall, fuzzy creature 212 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 8: named Gritty with a long orange beard, googly eyes, and 213 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 8: I assume a dining bag of mostly stems. And everyone's saying, 214 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 8: it's hard to tell exactly. 215 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 3: What Gritty is supposed to be. 216 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: Is he a muppet? 217 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 5: Is he a yetti? 218 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 3: Is he some kind of bigfoot? 219 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 8: Nobody has any idea. 220 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 3: Yes, listener, it's hard to remember now, but when Gritty 221 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 3: was first introduced, he was mocked mercilessly, and Brian was 222 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 3: there watching it all unfold in front of him. 223 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 5: I always get nervous whenever something big like this is revealed. 224 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 5: But I thought it would just be local, so I 225 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 5: thought the only people who would care would be people 226 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 5: from Pennsylvania. So it certainly didn't expect it to be 227 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 5: on like John Oliver Show. And you know, Conan, this 228 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 5: is an interesting fact. 229 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 8: Gritty was actually the first mascot ever based on the 230 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 8: crayon drawings of a five year old who saw his 231 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 8: parents murdered. 232 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 5: We had no idea how big it would get, and 233 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 5: that is in a large part due to the excellent 234 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 5: work of the marketing team at the Flyers. They really 235 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 5: did an excellent job of just rolling with the criticism 236 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 5: and the reaction and having fun with it and like 237 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 5: answering back in a way that they didn't apologize for it. 238 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 8: Basically by the Pittsburgh Penguins tweeting lol okay, to which Gritty. 239 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 5: Responded, sleep with one eye open tonight. 240 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 8: Bird, Holy shit, Gritty calmed down. They're just engaging in 241 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 8: some entertained punto and you've gone straight to I will 242 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 8: murder you. 243 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 5: In your sleep. And I think that just made him stronger, 244 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 5: and then eventually people kind of forgot that they hated him. 245 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 5: And because a lot of times I'll tell people that 246 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 5: nobody liked him at first, and they don't even remember 247 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,479 Speaker 5: that part, which is fantastic. 248 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 3: People remember what they want to remember, and what people 249 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 3: remember now is that Gritty is a perfect mascot for today, 250 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,719 Speaker 3: edgy but fun, an anti hero and orange fur. 251 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 5: I remember it turning around because people started sending me 252 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,719 Speaker 5: their fan art of Gritty. People started making cakes out 253 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 5: of them and then getting tattoos, and that was where 254 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 5: I finally felt comfortable and good about it. 255 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 3: Gritty's story is the triumph that's almost too wild to believe. 256 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 3: He went from being a bomb to a hit in 257 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 3: just twenty four hours. Today, he's adored as much as 258 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 3: his monster compatriot, the Philly Fanatic. The number support this, 259 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 3: from the revenue generated by his sold out merchandise to 260 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 3: having more followers on social media than any other mascot 261 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 3: in both professional sports and college teams across the nation. 262 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 3: He's a lot like the story of the y'alls, pushing 263 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 3: the boundaries of what a mascot can be while serving 264 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 3: as a unifying beacon for the community. 265 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 5: There's a safe way to reveal a mascot, and they 266 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 5: went in the opposite direction, and I think it really 267 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 5: paid off. 268 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 3: Ryan designed gritty, but an entire team of artists and 269 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 3: sculptors had to create the mascot. We're going to see 270 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 3: what it takes to go from designing features to dancing 271 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 3: in the bleachers when we return. 272 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 6: I like to consider myself more of a sort of 273 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 6: midwife to mascots. I don't necessarily create them, but I 274 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 6: certainly bring them into being and ensure they're a healthy 275 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 6: start in their life forward. 276 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 3: This is Mary Hicky Panayoto. Mary has been making mascots 277 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 3: and costumes in Chicago since the nineteen seventies. She owned 278 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 3: Chicago Costume, an enormous costume shop that was around long 279 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 3: before Spirit Halloween Corner the Market and Chicago Mascot is 280 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 3: where she makes you guessed it mascots. If you love 281 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 3: a mascot, there's a good chance it was made by 282 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 3: Mary and her team. She's made mascots for the Minnesota Vikings, 283 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 3: the Seattle Seahawks, the Utah Jazz, the Chicago White Sox. 284 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 3: When Kellogg's needed a Tony the Tiger, they called Mary. 285 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 3: When chee It's needed a giant cheese It character that 286 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 3: was Chicago mascot as well. Mary's reputation in the mascot 287 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 3: industry is second to none. Her instagram is literally Mascot Maker, 288 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 3: and that comes from her association with one particular mascot. 289 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 3: Mary isn't just a midwife to any old mascot. She's 290 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 3: the midwife to the one and only Bennie the Bull, 291 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 3: the mascot for the Chicago Bulls. If Gritty's the greatest 292 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 3: mascot out there today, when I was a kid, there 293 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 3: was no mascot greater than Benny the Bull. I mean 294 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 3: sure it helps to be the mascot for the Michael 295 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 3: Jordan era, more agile, more athletic, more fun than any 296 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 3: of the other mascots in the NBA. And that was 297 00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 3: in part thanks to Mary. 298 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 6: I got involved because the performer for Benny the Bull 299 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 6: needed some repairs and came to me and said, you know, 300 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 6: look the seams ripped, this blew out. Can you fix that? 301 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 5: I said, of course. 302 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 6: I'm a little well egotistical. If you want, I say, 303 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 6: you know, I can do anything. I mean enough time, 304 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 6: enough money, I can do anything. And so I began 305 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 6: working with him, fixing up his costume and solving some 306 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 6: issues that he was having. Just sometimes people who make 307 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 6: things think, oh, this is how we do it, you know. 308 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 6: I hear that all the time from the people that 309 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 6: have gone to varying schools out here, and they say, oh, no, 310 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 6: that's how we do it. Well, that might be how 311 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 6: some people do, but here's how we're going to do 312 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 6: it today in this way, because we're going to do 313 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 6: it to solve this problem. And that's what I really 314 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 6: try to do. I say, what is your problem with 315 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 6: that mascot? And they said, well, you know, when I 316 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 6: lift my hands up, my arms show because my gloves 317 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 6: don't cover. Well, we can solve that problem. Or I 318 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 6: can't get my arms up because the sleeves are too tight, 319 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 6: or my head keeps falling off. There's lots of ways 320 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 6: we can fix the things that you're having problems with. 321 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 3: I'm ready for Mary to fix all my problems, even 322 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 3: the ones that aren't mascot related, like my love life 323 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 3: or my bank account. But I also happen to have 324 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 3: some very specific mascot related problems as well. So this 325 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 3: podcast is about me going back to my high school, 326 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 3: graduated in two thousand and five, and our mascot was 327 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 3: mister Rebel. I was just looking up a photo of him, 328 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 3: because you make a good point, like we are interested 329 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 3: in changing this old timey sort of like a battalion 330 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 3: leader character into a much friendlier mascot, a biscuit, something 331 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 3: people are proud of in the South, something that doesn't 332 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: feel divisive. And as I look at mister Rebel, he 333 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 3: kind of has like angry eyes, and I think it's 334 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 3: just like the shape of his brow is a little furrowed. 335 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 3: You know, maybe you could give us a little advice. 336 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 3: Do you think our biscuits should look angry like a 337 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 3: fighting biscuit or should it be something like what would 338 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 3: bring people together more? I guess in your experience, well, 339 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 3: I tend to advise all of my clients never to 340 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 3: kind of use a human figure as a mascot, because 341 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 3: all of us are already humans, and that mascot should 342 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 3: be something that's not human. In addition, it's really difficult 343 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 3: we as humans react to things that look like us, 344 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 3: so in any animal or shape, and I've done a 345 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 3: lot of shape mascots. We really want to see eyes 346 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 3: and a mouth. We can't really identify or connect emotionally 347 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,239 Speaker 3: with somebody. If we can't see eyes, you know, if 348 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 3: there's not a connection there. So you those are the 349 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 3: parts you want to pay attention to. Mary can tell 350 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 3: you everything there is to know about making a mascot. 351 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 3: She can tell you that the head can't be too heavy. 352 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 6: I never want to build and ship ahead that is 353 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 6: under that is over five pounds, five pounds too much 354 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 6: to carry on the muscles of your neck. 355 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 3: She can tell you what materials you can and can't use. 356 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 6: There's a lot of materials that used to be used 357 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 6: to make mascots that they don't even make anymore because 358 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 6: they've been proven to cause cancer. For instance. You know 359 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 6: there's people that say, oh, can't you use fiberglass, And 360 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 6: I'm like, yeah, no, you can't. Used to, but you 361 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 6: can't do that anymore. Yeah, not just lead based page. 362 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 3: She can tell you the things you never thought about 363 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 3: that then become so obvious. 364 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 6: One of the things that mascots have to always be 365 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 6: aware of is they can't speak. There's never a mascot 366 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 6: that speaks. So a lot of times, you know, you 367 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 6: have ad agencies and things, and they want the mascots 368 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 6: to say stuff, but mascots don't talk. Every emotion that 369 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 6: a mascot needs to convey has to be done so physically. 370 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 3: But the most important thing Mary will tell you is. 371 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 6: I can build you a beautiful costume, but it's still 372 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 6: just a box, fur and fallm until you put it on. 373 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 6: You know it's not. It needs it needs you inside 374 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 6: of it to bring it to life. 375 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 3: At the end of the day, a mascot is only 376 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 3: as good as a performer inside it. It's that person 377 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 3: who makes a connection with the audience, and that connection 378 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 3: is everything. When I talked to Brian and Mary about 379 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 3: the technical aspects of a mascot, what was interesting is 380 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 3: that they spent most of the discussion talking about humanity. 381 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 3: They focused on character and storytelling far more than hula 382 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 3: hoop bellies or height or materials or anything. 383 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,479 Speaker 5: It has to be something that can emote, like so 384 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 5: the eyes in the mouth have to be big and 385 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 5: visible and expressive, because this is something that someone could 386 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 5: be way up in the nosebleeds and you still want 387 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 5: them to be able to connect with the character. It's 388 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 5: not really a puppet, right Like you can't can't really 389 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 5: move his mouth. The eyes in Gritty's case just go 390 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 5: wherever they want. So a lot a lot goes into 391 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 5: a mascot's design, just in those in the face, trying 392 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 5: to make that as expressive as possible without it really 393 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 5: being able to be controlled. 394 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 6: You really don't want it to be either smiling or frowning. 395 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 6: You don't want it to really looking happy or sad. 396 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 6: You want whatever face that you see to be able 397 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 6: to be moved in any direction that you want that 398 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 6: audience member to feel by what you do with your 399 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 6: body and with the rest of it. So that's a 400 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 6: real important thing. If you make something look too crazy 401 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 6: or too mean, you can never go the other direction. 402 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 6: You've got to remain really neutral, and often it's really subtle, 403 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 6: like where do you put the little flash of the eye, 404 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 6: how much do you put that smile line in? You know, 405 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 6: you've got to just just temper it ever so slightly 406 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 6: so that you still see a neutral looking face until 407 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 6: they start waving arms and doing things with their body 408 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 6: that say they're either excited or sad. 409 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 3: It doesn't matter if it's a biscuit eating eater or 410 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 3: a gritty or a fanatic. At the end of the day, 411 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 3: what it needs to be is something that we can 412 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 3: feel with our gut is speaking to the highs and 413 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 3: lows of a sporting event, mania, enthusiasm, shame, joy. As 414 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 3: I was talking with Mary and Brian, I realized that 415 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 3: if anyone can give advice on how to move from 416 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 3: one mascot to another, especially if that move is a 417 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 3: little controversial, it's them. 418 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 6: We've changed a mascot the whole. The team wants a 419 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 6: whole new look or a whole new thing, or that 420 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 6: doesn't really work for them. I say, involve the mascot. 421 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 6: Let it become forth. So if you team has this 422 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 6: old mascot, Colonel whatever, that's not going to be it anymore. 423 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 6: The colonel himself has to shepherd in the new guy. 424 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 6: He has to say, oh, you know, I'm retiring, I'm 425 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 6: going to somewhere. I got it, not I got another job, 426 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 6: but on this, on that. A lot of times we'll 427 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 6: do the same mascot, but we'll peer it down. So 428 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 6: I'll have them make a lot of videos of working 429 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 6: out and eat and write and trying to get you know, oh, 430 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 6: stop smoking whatever ul so that when they bring out 431 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 6: the new pair down version, it won't be as hard 432 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 6: on them, you know, it will the people Everybody at 433 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 6: first will go, oh no, oh no, that's not that's 434 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 6: not my mascot. Oh no, no, I want the old 435 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 6: guy back. But after two or three months, a couple 436 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 6: of games, they're okay with it. They they they get 437 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 6: used to it. It's like, you know, your husband's shaving 438 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 6: off his beard and mustache, and suddenly it's like, I 439 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 6: don't know you, I'm not even coming. But after a 440 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 6: while you get used to it, and then yeah, it's 441 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 6: hard to remember what it was like. 442 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: Mary, of course, didn't disappoint though I'm hard pressed to 443 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 3: imagine HB. Death Ridge welcoming in butt at a biscuit 444 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 3: or whatever. But when I ask the same question to Brian, 445 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 3: the answer isn't about how to make the change, but 446 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 3: instead about something much closer to home for him. 447 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,719 Speaker 5: That is tough. We had. We had a similar not 448 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 5: to not to that extreme, but a similar fight locally 449 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 5: because my kids high school mascot is like a raider. 450 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 5: It's like a chief face, and like half the town 451 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 5: wanted to change it to something else and the other 452 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 5: half plus one did not, and so we still have 453 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 5: the Native American face as the mascot. They won out, 454 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 5: but it got heated, people were at each other's throats. 455 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 3: Without prompting, Brian brought up something that we haven't discussed 456 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 3: yet on this podcast. If you're telling the story of 457 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 3: trying to change a mascot in America, you have to 458 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 3: tell the story of the decades long fight to remove 459 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 3: Native American stereotypes and offensive imagery from sports. Because while 460 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 3: according to Terry Burning from Mascot dB, there are still 461 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 3: over one hundred and fifty high schools using the name Rebels, 462 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 3: there are over two thousand that use derogatory and racist 463 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 3: nicknames for Native Americans, whether. 464 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 2: It's Redskins, Indians, Warriors, Chiefs, Braves, any number of them. Unfortunately, 465 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: there's still there's still Redskins around, and they're still actually 466 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 2: Savages is still being used at a number of high 467 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: schools as well. 468 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 3: I mean, come on, man, of course, the offensive team 469 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 3: names are not just at the high school level. While 470 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 3: some are changing, the Washington Redskins are now the Commanders 471 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 3: and the Cleveland Indians are now the Guardians, others have 472 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 3: clung stubbornly to their outdated racist team names. I'm looking 473 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 3: at you, Atlanta Braves and Kansas City Chiefs. When we 474 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 3: come back, we meet someone fighting her own battle against 475 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 3: racist mascots. 476 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: I live outside of Kansas City. I live in Lawrence, Kansas, 477 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: which is like forty five minutes away. 478 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 3: This is Ronda Levaldo. 479 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: I've heard from parents that have kids in the local 480 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: school district who get mocked by the chop when they 481 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: might be athletes and they're playing sports. And I went 482 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: to a concert. I went to see thirty seconds of 483 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: Mars and they were doing the chop there, and I'm like, 484 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: oh my gosh. 485 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 3: Ronda is the dean of the College of Humanities and 486 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 3: Arts Haskell Indian Nations University, as well as a journalist 487 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 3: who writes about Native American issues, and the chop she 488 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 3: is referring to is at the center of her work 489 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 3: for the last two decades trying to get the Kansas 490 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 3: City Chiefs to change their team name. The chop, also 491 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 3: known as the Tomahawk chop, is the chief signature crowd move. 492 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 3: The Atlanta Braves and the Florida State Seminoles also do 493 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 3: this move. 494 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: You know when we say it's not just at the game, 495 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: and it's not like I cannot watch the game. It's everywhere. 496 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: It's in grocery stores, it's over the radio, it's on billboards. 497 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:43,719 Speaker 1: You know, we're faced with this. 498 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 3: Rhonda is one of a number of Native American activists 499 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 3: who have been at the forefront of the movement to 500 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 3: change team names for the better part of twenty years. 501 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: We decided to organize a protest at the Kansas City 502 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,239 Speaker 1: Washington football game in two thousand and five, and so 503 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,479 Speaker 1: we didn't realize how big it would get, but we 504 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: had people come from everywhere, from all these different states 505 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: to come protests with us, and it was so great. 506 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: And after that we kind of just were like, you know, 507 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: we need to continue to keep doing this. 508 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 3: Ronda and others founded the organization Not in Our Honor 509 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 3: in two thousand and five when they were still in college. 510 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 3: One of her co founders was Amanda black Horse, who 511 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 3: would go on to sue over the Washington Redskins name. 512 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 3: Both Ronda and Amanda black Horse were mentored by Susan Harjo, 513 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 3: a Native activist who has been trying to get team 514 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 3: names changed since the nineteen sixties. It was actually Harjo 515 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 3: who sued over the Redskins name first in nineteen ninety two, 516 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 3: when she, alongside other activists, filed the case Harjo versus 517 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 3: Pro Football, Inc. Harjo's case was novel. She sued to 518 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 3: cancel the team's trademark on the grounds that it was 519 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 3: disparaging to Native Americans. The hope was without a name 520 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 3: enforceable by trademarks, the owners would change it. Pardo's case 521 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 3: was victorious in nineteen ninety nine when the Patent and 522 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 3: Trademark's Office canceled the Redskins trademark before being overturned on 523 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 3: technicalities in two thousand and three. It would continue to 524 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 3: wind its way through courts before finally being decided in 525 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 3: favor of the Redskins in two thousand and eight. Black 526 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 3: Horse and others picked up the case and sued again 527 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 3: in twenty twelve, citing instances of twelve rejections of the 528 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 3: name Redskins by the Trademark Office on grounds of the 529 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 3: word being disparaging since the original case in nineteen ninety two. 530 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 3: The Black Horse case was victorious. In twenty fourteen, the 531 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 3: trademark office canceled the football club's trademarks. That is until 532 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, when the Supreme Court, deciding on a different case, 533 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 3: ruled that the part of the trademark law banning disparaging 534 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 3: names was unconstitutional. The team kept the name until twenty twenty, 535 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 3: when the murder of George Floyd in the Summer of 536 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 3: racial Reckoning finally pushed the decades of Native American activism 537 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 3: around the club's name to the forefront, and the team 538 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 3: announced it was finally changing. The Cleveland Indians followed suit 539 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 3: a year later. It wasn't just pro teams that were 540 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 3: moving away from Native mascots. In twenty nineteen, main passed 541 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 3: a law banning Native mascots. In twenty twenty two, the 542 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 3: New York State Education Department issued a memo requiring schools 543 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 3: to ensure that district mascots, team names, and logos are 544 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 3: non discriminatory. Kansas has passed a non binding resolution encouraging 545 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 3: the elimination of Native mascots in the next few years. 546 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 3: Laws are also on the books in California, Colorado, Michigan, Nevada, Oregon, 547 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 3: and Washington. It's taken decades and the work of countless 548 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 3: activists and organizations, but team names are really changing. 549 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a website that I track that goes through 550 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 2: and there's anywhere from it's got to be close to 551 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 2: fifty or sixty per year that are changing away from 552 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 2: that Native American mascotry. 553 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 3: Again, Terry Barning. 554 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 2: I know that with Native American mascots, I believe it 555 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 2: was a Didas offered some grant money change your mascot. 556 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 2: Here's a could change to help you with that. 557 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 3: Native team names are changing across the country, except stubbornly 558 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,959 Speaker 3: in Kansas City where Rhonda is still fighting. 559 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: Now it's become a bigger movement because we have more 560 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: people who have eyes on us, and we know Kansas 561 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: City the football team doesn't appreciate what we do because 562 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: they're continually being blasted by people who are who realize 563 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: like their efforts to be like end racism is not working. 564 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 3: It's progress, but it's not over, not by a lot. 565 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 3: And the harms inflicted on Native communities are significant. 566 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: You know, just from us telling people that it's very 567 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: hurtful to us, and you know, people not believing that. 568 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: We actually had to go get evidence of statistical evidence, 569 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: if you can believe that these things are harmful. We 570 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: had to get you know, numbers to show that, yes, 571 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,959 Speaker 1: this is harmful to our students, This is harmful to 572 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: our kids. It makes them think of how they see 573 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: themselves in a different way, and how others see themselves 574 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: as well. 575 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 3: It's protecting Native children and their communities from that harm 576 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 3: that has led Ronda to stand outside football stadiums, protesting, 577 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 3: most of the time in groups and sometimes alone. As 578 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 3: a Native American woman, she already faces significant risks of 579 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 3: physical violence in this country. Standing outside football stadiums confronting 580 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 3: intoxicated and often aggressive men can be an intimidating experience. 581 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 3: If you translate this down to the high school level, 582 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 3: how likely is it that a teenage Indigenous girl would 583 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 3: feel safe protesting her mascot at her school, where she 584 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 3: would definitely face similar dangers. 585 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: It's gotten a little bit scarier, and I would say 586 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: even now with social media it's even worse because I 587 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: get tons of messages in my different social media accounts, 588 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: people threatening me. I've had peopils the ox and my address, 589 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: and so I've actually gotten a letter and it was 590 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: just a type letter, and it just had a blank 591 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: piece of paper in it and it just said four thirty. 592 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: Don't know what that meant. We were just kind of 593 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: like okay, and so every time at like four thirty, 594 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: we're like freaking out, like soon we're gonna do something. 595 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: But at the same time, like, you know, I'm kind 596 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: of like, you know, if you want to do that, 597 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: that's that's what this means to you. If you're that 598 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: indebted that you have to threaten me, then okay, I 599 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: guess so we're gonna go there. 600 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 3: These angry, rabid fans and their willingness to threaten violence 601 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 3: over a mascot, are inadvertently proving the point this isn't 602 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 3: just a harmless symbol. It's deeply embedded in their identity, 603 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 3: which is precisely why it matters and why it needs 604 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 3: to be examined. 605 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 5: I learned that with Gritty too. There were a lot 606 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 5: of people with the flyers who like either really didn't 607 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 5: want a mascot or they they didn't like the direction 608 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 5: of Gritty, and they were I was surprised by the 609 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 5: anger of it. Anytime you're trying to mess with tradition, 610 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 5: you have to be ready for serious backlash. So I 611 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 5: totally agree with what you're saying about wanting to change it. 612 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 5: But the trouble is that so many people on that 613 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 5: side are going. 614 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 3: To be entrenched backlash in the name of tradition. You 615 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 3: see it everywhere right now, not just pushing against changing mascots, 616 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 3: but pushing against change period. But change is good and 617 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 3: thankfully for those of us advocating for it. We don't 618 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 3: just hear from people who fear it. We hear from 619 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 3: those that embrace it as well. 620 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: For us, if you know, it's important that we make 621 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: our voices heard, and you know it's important for other 622 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: people around the country who believe in what we're doing, 623 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: like they're constantly sending us messages like they thank you 624 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: for doing this, thank you for standing. 625 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 3: Up for Rhonda. The words of encouragement keep her going, 626 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 3: but so does the hope that one day she won't 627 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 3: have to be out there anymore. 628 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: One day our kids do not have to deal with 629 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 1: this type of imagery, and I would love for that 630 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: to happen. And I think people think, you know, if 631 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: we get rid of these images and stereotypes, that nobody's 632 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: going to remember who we are. And I'm like, we're 633 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: always going to be here, We're always going to be 634 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: part of the community, and you could at least understand 635 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: that you're making us feel more like human beings and 636 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: so and a part of that community. We're not a 637 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: part of that community. I would love to be able 638 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: to cheer for Kansas City, but I can't. It's just 639 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: is disgusting and gross. 640 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,240 Speaker 3: It's not a lot to ask to cheer for your team, 641 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 3: to be a part of a community, to be represented 642 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 3: by something that you can see yourself in, whether it's 643 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 3: a big orange monster blasting a T shirt at a 644 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 3: fan at close range, a red bull executing a flip 645 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,240 Speaker 3: on their way to dunking a basketball, maybe just maybe 646 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 3: a biscuit or whatever. We all deserve to feel welcome. 647 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 3: We all deserve to be included. We all deserve to 648 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 3: be a part of the shared experience, the family, the 649 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 3: kinship that is sports. In our next episode, we hone 650 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 3: in specifically on the push to change rebel mascots across 651 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 3: the country and meet a few other Rebel alumni who 652 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 3: have been able to create change in their own schools, 653 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 3: even if it took them literal decades. 654 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 4: Huh. 655 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 3: All that and more next week. Rebel Spirit is a 656 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 3: production of Ninth Planet Audio in association with iHeart Podcasts. 657 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 3: Reporting and writing by me Akuila Hughes. I'm also an 658 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 3: executive producer and the host. Produced by Dan Sinker, edited 659 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 3: by Josie A. Zam Our. Assistant editor is Jennifer Dean. 660 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 3: Music composed by Charlie Sun, Sound design and mixing by 661 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 3: Josie zahm Our. Production coordinator is Kyle Hinton. Our clearance 662 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 3: coordinator is Anna Sunenshine. Production accounting by Dill pret Singh 663 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 3: Additional research support from Janice Dillard. Special thanks to Jay 664 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 3: Becker and the whole team at BLDG, the Florence Yawls, 665 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 3: Amber Hoffmann, and Leslie Chambers. Executive producers for Ninth Planet 666 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 3: Audio are Elizabeth Baquett and Jimmy Miller.