WEBVTT - Ig Nobels 2017: Crocodile Slots, Twins & Old Ears 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how stuff 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:15.000 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:17.680 And my name is Robert Lamb, I'm Christian and I'm 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.880 Joe McCormick. And hey, this is part two of our 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:24.279 seventeen Ignobles series. That's right. If you haven't listened to 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:26.680 the first one, I recommend that you go back at 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.200 least listen to the first twenty minutes because we set 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.640 up the stage for what ignobells are, how we've covered 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.720 them in the past before, and what we're doing here today. 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:39.280 This is really a continuation of us observing the prizes. 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:44.000 That being said, if there was ever a multipart episode 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:45.959 that you could just drop in at any point, it's 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.959 this one. This is a bag yeah, because because basically 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:50.919 we're just taking the ten different winners for the two 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.080 thousand seventeen Ignoble prizes, we divvy them up and we're 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.080 each like taking the lead on a different study discussing 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.200 why it's cool, why it's funny, and exactly what the signs. 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:04.200 In the last episode, we talked about liquid cats, cave bugs, 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:08.319 and digury do therapy, along with weird coffee mugs, and 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.520 now we're gonna get into even weirder stuff. Okay, So 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.080 the first prize we're going to discuss today is the 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:19.319 Economics Prize, ordered to Matthew Rocklough and Nancy Greer quote 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.559 for their experiments to see how contact with a live 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:27.280 crocodile affects a person's willingness to gamble. Okay, this sounds 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:29.039 like something out of a out of a James Bond 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:32.319 film right here. I'm imagining that this is like, I 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:34.920 don't know, based in Louisiana or Florida or something where 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:37.920 live crocodiles are a common sighting and then you may 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:42.600 go gambling it. Based in Australia, you can gamble and 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:47.199 you can handle saltwater crocodile. Right, Yeah, So the paper 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:49.920 is called never Smile at a crocodile. Betting on electronic 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:54.640 gaming machines is intensified by reptile induced arousal. Actually, there, 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.080 we should put an asterisk on the statement in that 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:00.720 title there, because that that's partially true depending on what 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.120 kind of gambler you are and some other things about you. 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.040 It was published in the Journal of Gambling Studies in 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:11.080 and so there are a lot of slot machines studies. 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.560 That the whole episode that right, and I think we 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:16.519 could do more. Robert and I have talked about doing 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.799 episodes entirely on rat slot machine studies or I mean, 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:23.239 there's just tons of research on slot machines, and there's 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:26.440 a reason for the slot machines or as the literature 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.959 refers to them, electronic gaming machines or e g m s. 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:35.959 They're kind of a perfect predator. They're like brilliantly designed 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:40.120 to exploit vulnerabilities in human psychology and risk management behavior, 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.120 gambling with e g m s tends to produce this 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.280 state of what's known as autonomic arousal. You and I 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:49.080 would just probably call this excitement, you know, physiological sensation 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.440 of excitement in the body that the brain tends to 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.120 interpret sometimes in the case of gambling, interprets as a 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:58.520 lucky streak, which keeps you gambling, and it leads to 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.720 this vicious cycle where it's more and more arousing and 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.080 you just keep wanting to bet more and more money. 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:09.400 Autonomic arousal not to be confused with reptile induced arousal. Well, no, 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.880 I mean, reptiles could create a state of aucomic arousal, 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.160 but yeah, not one and the same thing one could 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:18.560 lead to the other. So I think e g M 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:20.480 s are an interesting thing to study, and this kind 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:24.160 of research really matters because they fit into a similar category. 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:28.000 Uh that that I would put social media interface design 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:32.640 in this this successful technology design that is actually better 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:35.800 at its job than is good for us. What do 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.440 y'all think about that? With like social media interfaces that 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:42.080 I would say, it's a great success story in terms 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:47.040 of designing technology. But success doesn't necessarily mean morally good 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.480 or good for our lives. Well, I think we When 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:52.360 I think of a slot machine, I instantly think of 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:54.880 like somebody that's kind of shackled there to the machine 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.920 and they're just pushing buttons, uh, And there's this idea 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.000 that it's going to pay off for them, and then 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:01.920 maybe it does pay off a little bit, and then 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.960 they keep going. And with with social media, you do 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.360 see a some more situation. Someone has their phone out, 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.360 they're constantly checking this feed or that feed, this social 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.880 media appor that or another. And the win in this case, 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.680 I guess would be somebody contacting them directly or some 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:21.360 sort of response. Howbody like that I get on my 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:24.080 or you might even you might even have a real win. 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.600 You could have a meaningful interaction with somebody you care 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.480 about on social media, or you might come across an 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:31.919 interesting article that you're glad you read. Those are the 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:35.440 little winds, but maybe it just keeps you playing. After that, 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.240 we're speaking more little on our is social media making 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:41.600 us crazy? Episode from last year? And I think, yeah, 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:47.279 if I remember correctly, the literature basically assumes and they're 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:49.800 still looking into this of course that like the same 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.200 parts of our brain that are lit up by gambling 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:54.159 or lit up by social media. I think I think 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.719 that's a highly successful and correct analogy. Uh so for 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:01.080 social media interfaces that the job they're trying to achieve 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.640 generally is maximizing time on site. They want to keep 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.400 you on that platform as long as possible and keep 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:09.800 you looking at stuff and clicking on ads and all that. 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.520 Is that why we do those hour long Facebook lives 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.160 every Friday? I don't, Well, that's why Facebook wants us 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:18.160 doing those things. Yeah, I don't know what our reason is. 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:21.440 Maybe we're just slaves to the machine. But you didn't 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:25.240 know that. Basically, Yeah, the machine says you need to 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.159 do this, and we basically turned it around and said, Okay, 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:31.280 we'll do it, but if we're gonna do right, we'll 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.200 change it from the inside. Sure, yeah, that's what we're doing. 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:37.359 We're changing the machine. Man. But the electronic gaming machines, 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:39.920 I would put them in the same category. But instead 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.520 what they're seeking is not maximizing time on site, but 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:47.040 maximizing time on machine. Because when they maximize time on machine, 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:51.400 this tends toward infinity of losses for the player. It 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:56.240 leads to playing two extinctions industry term. Basically, the machine 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.640 getting all your cash and then making you come back 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.200 to play again when you've got more are draining the 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.040 host dry of its precious blood. So unless you want 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:08.119 to make gambling illegal or something, one of the best 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:12.680 defenses against this type of machine is for independent researchers 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:15.720 to study the psychology of gaming, basically to understand how 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.760 these machines exploit our brains, so we can build up 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.920 defense behaviors that people could employ independently to resist the machines, 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.960 or maybe so you could impose regulations on what types 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:28.880 of things these machines can do. Well, like what one 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.760 of the issues that we got into before was what 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.120 happens when a machine is speaking to you in a 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:39.039 human voice or using other kind of anthropomorphic forms, like 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.800 if if you were to pass a lot and says, look, 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:43.640 you can have slot machines, but they can't look like 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:47.080 beautiful women. They can't look like cartoon characters. That's they 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:49.840 can't be a cowboy that says, howdy, partner, put coins 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.760 in me. And that is actually a meaningful thing because 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.479 studies have shown that you might spend more money in 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.479 a slot machine that seems more humanoid and less mechanical. 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.240 So the tons of studies like this, there's just a 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:06.760 prolific slot machine research. This is one example that is 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.320 maybe the weirdest one I've ever come across, but I 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.560 like it. So Rock Lofting Career decided to study this 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.720 strange condition. What happens when you have the opportunity to 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.840 gamble on an e g M after you've just held 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:23.560 a saltwater crocodile. The so the subjects are tourists at 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:29.080 the Kurana Saltwater Crocodile Farm in Kowonga, Queensland, Australia. It 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:31.840 was a hundred and three subjects, forty one of them female, 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.520 uh ages eighteen to sixty six. And here's the experiment 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.880 under two different conditions. Subjects would be given money. They'll 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.320 give you twenty bucks, and then they ask you to 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.680 play a laptop simulated e g M sort of a 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.880 slot machine simulator written in visual basic on a laptop 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:52.000 computer where you would get to gamble with the money 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.480 they just gave you. And the two different conditions were this, 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:57.880 you could either play this game or right before you 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:01.760 walk into the crocodile farm or right after you have 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.240 cradled a one meter long saltwater crocodile in your hands. 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.320 So there are some independent variables going into this. Right 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.280 you've got obviously the control condition and the test condition 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:13.880 did you just walk in or have you handled a crocodile, 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.720 and so that is supposed to correspond to your level 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:20.040 of arousal. They did a galvanic skin conductance test to 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.200 to sort of check this and say, okay, we're people 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.640 actually showing physiological signs of arousal, and they determined yeah, 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:29.920 people who held crocodiles were physiologically aroused. But the other 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.480 independent variables would be problem gaming status, like do do 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:35.880 you have any of the risk factors for being a 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:40.920 problem gambler or affective state? Are you having negative feelings 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:43.520 right now, and so they'd established that by a questionnaire 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:46.360 UH that they administer at the time of the test, 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.400 like are you having emotions that we'd usually classify as 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.559 negative affect or positive affect? And then the deependit variables. 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:55.680 This is what they were seeing. Was was coming out 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.440 from those variables was bet size, how much you bet, 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.040 speed of betting, how asty bet, and final payouts like 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:04.079 what what's your your bottom line at the end of 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.559 the game. And the results they found where that compared 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.920 to people in the control group, holding a crocodile could 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.559 affect problem gamblers in a couple of different ways. If 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:19.240 you held a crocodile and had negative emotions, you actually 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.520 placed lower than average bets on the e g M. 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.880 So if you're somebody who's at risk for problem gambling, 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:28.679 they hand you a crocodile and you don't like it 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:32.400 and you have negative emotions, you'll actually it will tamp 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.839 down your problem gambling behaviors. You're less likely to spend 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:39.280 more interesting But if you are a problem gambler or 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.240 have these you know, risk factors for problem gambling, and 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.240 you hold a crocodile and you don't have negative feelings 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.800 about it, you actually place much higher than average bets 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.720 on the e g M. That's what I imagined would happen, 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:54.720 That there's some kind of like I held this dangerous 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.720 animal and everything turned out okay, so now I'm willing 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:02.199 to take more risks. Well, So here's how the researchers 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.240 interpreted it. I'll see what you guys think about this. 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.520 The way they interpreted it is that they're going on 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.000 what's known as the two factor model of effective states. 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.120 So the way they think affective states tend to happen 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:17.200 is that we first of all experience physiological arousal, like 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.480 there are feelings in the body that tell you something 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.760 of emotional significance is happening, and then secondary to that, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.240 you cognitively think about it and give it some kind 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.640 of meaning or significance or cause. So what would happen, 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.320 say if, um, you suddenly a car is driving head 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:37.400 on at you in the highways. First you have the 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.880 feelings in your body there's some kind of arousal, and 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.720 then you use your sense data and your thoughts to 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.360 kind of say, okay, here's why that's happening. I'm afraid 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.480 because a car is coming at me um. And so 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:53.560 what that means, though, is that the feelings of arousal 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:57.480 in the body are not necessarily linked to their actual causes. 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.360 It's just something that we sort of figure you're out 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:04.360 secondary to having the feeling. And so the way that 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:06.880 might work in a gambler is if you do something 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:12.080 dangerous or something arousing, like holding a dangerous reptile, you 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.800 can you get this physiological sense of arousal. But the 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:19.360 gambler who doesn't have fear emotions really about that animal 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.560 or any other kind of negative emotions, can just interpret 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.360 that free floating arousal as a lucky streak. So it's like, 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.760 I'm pumped up by what just happened, and I'm that 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.640 means I'm good to go. Let's gamble. I'm I just 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.160 had the crocodile. I'm ready to drop some cash. Yeah, 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.560 it's content content free arousal that you can interpret in 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.600 any schema you want. And for the problem gambler, that 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.680 schema may very well be the feeling of luckiness or 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:46.840 the feeling of being on a roll. So I gotta 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.280 ask you, then, how well do you think Kenny Rogers 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.520 the gambler would do based on his crocodile experience was it. 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:56.840 Maybe here's the thing he maybe he was talking about 0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:58.959 a crocodile. You've got to know when to hold the 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:01.800 crocodile and when to run. See, that would actually be 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:06.319 more specific. I've got issues with Kenny Rogers the Gambler 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:10.040 who doesn't because I think it fits into this category 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:15.160 of advice that is not actually specific enough to matter. There. 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:17.319 There's tons of advice like that out in the world. 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.120 You'll read these, you know, inspirational quotes. People have whole 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.920 books like this where they offer advice, but the advice 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.880 is actually completely generic. It's essentially like telling somebody you 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.200 should figure out what the right thing to do is. 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.520 It's like a fortune cookie. Yeah, and so in the 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:33.439 in the song, it's you've got to know when to 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:35.720 hold them, no, when to fold them. That's not advice. 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:38.520 Advice would be telling me what to judge that on, 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.679 Like how should I know when to hold them? Uh, 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.640 this is completely an aside. But if you want some fun, 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.520 look up the video of him performing that song on 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.360 The Muppet Show in the eighties. Now he does he 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.439 does give us some advice. You never count your money. 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:54.680 I want you sitting at the table that Okay, I'll 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.120 give him that. That is specific advice. I'll take that. 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:58.640 But you've got to know when to hold them, no 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.720 one to fold them. That's not advice, that's just generic 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.719 fortune teller stuff. But anyway, I wanted to come back 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:06.880 to the study because there are some masterisks we should 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.320 put on this. Number one is I want to clarify 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.760 that this only seemed to be the case for problem gamblers, 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:16.200 So like holding the crocodile, just for normal people who 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.640 do who did not have these risk factors for being 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:23.640 a problem gambler, did not seem to intensify betting, and uh, 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.440 like these would be people for whom gambling is not 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.320 a novel experience, but maybe holding a crocodile is, whereas 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:34.679 from for me, holding a crocodile is the novel experience, 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.280 as is using a slot machine. Right, so you you 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.800 probably would not place higher bets or or have intensified 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.840 gambling or reward seeking behaviors after holding a crocodile, or likewise, 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.040 somebody who had a strict rule like, yeah, I play 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:49.960 the slot machines when I go to the casino, but 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.800 I only spend five dollars and once that's gone. I'm done, 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:55.120 and I never break that rule. Right. Yeah, So people 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:57.959 who don't exhibit these behaviors, this doesn't apply to them. 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:00.320 It does seem to apply to people who are risk 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.520 for problem gambling. But there is a limitation to the study. 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.120 Essentially that they did not have a lot of people 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:09.640 in their sample group who showed problem gambling behaviors or 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.440 or risk factors. So one thing would be that they 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:15.400 should probably try to replicate this to have more confidence 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.400 in the in the result with a larger sample group 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:20.880 that has more problem gamblers, and it just to make 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.320 sure that they're getting a real effect and this isn't 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:25.960 just noise. Now. Remember also, the thing is that even 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.600 among the problem gamblers, it was only when you don't 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.000 have any negative moods or negative feelings about holding the 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.080 crocodile that it leads to these intensified behaviors. If you 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:38.360 have these negative moods, you report it actually kind of 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.720 seems to moderate your gambling behavior. And so that sets 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:43.280 up this quote I want to read from the paper. 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:47.960 Quote in some low intensity negative moods, such as boredom 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:52.920 or mild anxiety, contribute to large bets among at risk players. 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:58.600 Whereas high autonomic arousal without negative moods also produces relatively 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:03.000 large wagers. Taken together, the results suggest that betting among 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:06.520 at risk players may be motivated both by attempts to 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:12.240 alleviate low arousal dysphoric moods and by high arousal induced 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.320 positive expectations of winning money. Yeah, totally. This lines up 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.400 with the social media thing as well. I think, yeah, 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.720 that makes sense. So it's like when you when you're 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:23.680 a problem gambler and you participate in these gambling behaviors, 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.800 it seems you may be trying to counteract basically like 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:33.680 low level unpleasantness and seeking high arousal, high reward pleas 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.120 you know, high high pleasure interactions. Right, But if you're 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:41.000 like absolutely in the pits emotionally, you're probably not going 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.720 to be likely to gamble as much as that the 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.000 person who's just sort of low level and happy, right, 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:48.440 a little bit anxious, a little bit bored, that's the 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.880 target show. Yeah, So what's the what what's the overall 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.400 takeaway from this? Is there any kind of crocodile based 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:58.280 regulation that might be employed to help problem gambling? Well, 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.480 I wouldn't say crocodile based. I mean, I think it. 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.440 Studies like this actually do matter, like that, this is 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.400 the kind of thing that can help us understand the 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.960 psychological states that lead to problem gambling and can help 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:13.360 people either individually can help people come up with strategies 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.640 to avoid problem gambling behaviors if they know, like, Okay, 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.120 here's the state I'm in when I'm vulnerable. I know 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:22.040 when I'm in that state, I should, uh, you know, 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:25.120 not be around electronic gaming machines or something like that. 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:29.040 Like you can devise behaviors to protect yourself from your 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:33.880 own impulses, or you could also devise regulations on society, 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.600 like if we find out that in general, people are 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:41.320 just much more susceptible to electronic gaming machines under certain 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:45.160 psychological conditions, you could try to keep gaming machines from 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.840 being around in places where you would expect people to 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.360 be in those conditions. Or you end up you end 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.200 up having just like some sort of a B S 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:57.320 question that pops up on the screen. Uh, please write 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.520 your depression level and if you and if you and 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.240 if you ad it too appropriately, then it won't let 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:03.920 you play right, And then you do it again and 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.040 you just click the number that's required, like an age gate. 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.000 They have a test in the machine to see if 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.600 you're okay or you having kind of like no, no 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.320 real strong negative emotions, but experiencing high arousal. I don't 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:20.399 know how you test for that, but but if you 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:22.600 detect that, it's like you better not gamble right now. 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:24.480 I mean, if you wanted to do it physiologically, you 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.119 could actually do a galvanic skin conductance test, you know, 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.080 like you could test for arousal with a physical test 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.119 and not a questionnaire. Yeah, I can see that, you like, 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.600 put your arm into a cuff of some sort and test. 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.480 It's like you're too aroused. You can't, can't play right now. 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:39.800 But then you come back to the again, to the 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:44.120 the question, how much energy, how much effort, how much 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:48.040 design are slot machine makers going to be willing to 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:52.480 put into you know, basically protecting the host organs? Well, 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:54.720 of course, I mean when we did our last slot 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.359 machine episode, we had somebody right in who worked for 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.080 a gaming design company and they were like, you know, 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.320 I think you you were a little too harsh on us. 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.320 You were a little too negative about slot machines. You know, 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:07.760 I don't want to demonize them too much, because I 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.919 can understand, like, under plenty of conditions, they might just 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.560 be a fun thing people do, Like if they've got 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:15.960 certain limits on how much they bet, it might just 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.679 be a cool recreational activity. I don't have a problem 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:22.359 with that, but I think we should recognize that certain 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.320 people have conditions that make them vulnerable to this and 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:27.720 that can be incredibly destructive in their lives. Well, I 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:29.119 think one of the things that we observed in that 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.120 episode is that the origins of the slot machine were 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:36.280 very mundane and fun. It was about, uh, administering a 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.359 prize in a simple game, not unlike you know, like 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:44.520 a trivia machine or something in bars today. But the machine, 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:48.919 as machines do, uh, they they evolved, They took on 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.800 more advanced forms, they were designed to take on more 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:55.760 advanced forms. They became better and better at at carrying 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.080 out their their key bit of programming, which was, you know, 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:03.000 drain the sucker of its coin, the original Facebook algorithm. 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.040 Have you guys noticed this trend in video games lately 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.399 when you're in like an immersive world video game, that 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:12.000 there is almost always a gambling component to it, Like 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.800 if you're in like Skyrim you can gamble. If you're 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.760 in Red Dead Redemption, you can gamble. I'm trying to 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:19.840 remember what the most recent one. Oh, the Witcher. I 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.120 was playing one of those Witcher games. It's like, everywhere 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.200 you go you can sit down and gamble. I would 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:27.720 say that the games like that incorporate gambling elements even 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.240 outside of the gaming within the gaming things. So in 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:31.840 a lot of these games, you can walk up to 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:33.959 a slot machine and play it, or you can play cards, 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:37.520 but also when you're in the world, there are variable 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:41.800 reward payouts where, for example, if your achievements yeah yeah, 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.159 you know, you might kill certain enemies or something, and 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.320 they've got goodies they give you when you loot them, 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.240 and you notice you don't get the same thing every time. 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.320 It's not guaranteed. It's variable payouts, just like a slot machine, 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.720 and the variable payouts are a psychological hack. The variable 0:19:57.760 --> 0:19:59.720 payouts make us think like, oh, it could be really 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:01.600 big next time. I'm gonna keep doing it. That's what 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.480 leads to grinding and video games. Yeah, yeah, I think 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:08.320 I wonder though, if there's something about the actual placing 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:13.359 of gambling into those games that psychologically gets players to 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:16.000 play longer. Yeah, I think that could very well be. 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:17.520 All right. On that note, we're going to take a 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:19.600 break and when we come back, we're going to jump 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:26.840 into the Cognition prize. Alright, we're back cognition. You say, 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:30.480 what have we got here? We have a paper titled 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.680 is that Me or My Twin? Lack of self face 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:38.560 recognition advantage in identical Twins. I saw this and as 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:40.920 we were doing the research for this yesterday a headline 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:45.399 popped up that was related to this. Apparently, Uh, you know, 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.840 when your phone does facial recognition as a way to unlock, 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:54.040 like as as a password, it has trouble with identical twins. Yeah, 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:56.080 so I wonder if what you're about to reveal to 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:58.840 us is related in a way. In a way, So, 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:03.040 this is a paper that came out in and it's 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.480 from a an Italian and Spanish team and it was 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:10.040 published in p Los one it. Uh, Before we get 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:13.080 into it, I do want to just touch basically on 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.919 the idea of identical twins. And uh, we've had some 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:18.919 episodes in the past. I've dealt with twins a little bit, 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:20.439 but I don't know, like I can't remember we've done 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.960 a deep dive. I know that we have some identical 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:25.359 twins out there listening to the show. I know that 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:29.600