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Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope

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Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Guess what, Mango, What's that give? The original Legend of

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Speaker 2: Zelda game launched in Japan in nineteen eighty six, which

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Speaker 2: means this year marks the fortieth anniversary.

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Speaker 1: Of the series.

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Speaker 2: So if you think about it, Link, the main character,

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Speaker 2: he's officially over the hill.

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Speaker 1: Which is super weird to think about because he looks

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Speaker 1: so young in the games. And plus he's like running

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Speaker 1: everywhere on that map and climbing mountains and swinging a

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Speaker 1: heavy sword. It feels it feels weird to think that

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Speaker 1: he and I are fairly close to thee Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he really needs to start pacing himself, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean, especially when you consider that Link was meant

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Speaker 2: to be about twelve years old in that first game,

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Speaker 2: so if the character really did age in real time,

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Speaker 2: he'd actually be in his fifties by now.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow. I do think Nintendo made the right call

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Speaker 1: keeping him more or less the same age, because I

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Speaker 1: don't think I'd really want to play him as a

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Speaker 1: geriatric But I mean, that is really fun to think about.

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Speaker 2: Well, one of my favorite things I found out this

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Speaker 2: week is that the series. Creator of gaming legend Shagiro Miyamoto,

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Speaker 2: he never wanted Link to age to adulthood. He thought

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Speaker 2: the character worked best as you know, a playful, childish boy,

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Speaker 2: and that, as he put it, quote, if we made

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Speaker 2: him too cool, he wouldn't be Link anymore. But you

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Speaker 2: know that philosophy. It began to change in the mid

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Speaker 2: nineteen nineties when Nintendo started development on the Legend of

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Speaker 2: Zelda Ocarina of Time, which was the first entry in

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Speaker 2: the series to feature three D graphics. The game's director,

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Speaker 2: Yoshiaka Koizumi, he decided to give Link a slightly older

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Speaker 2: look that time around, not so much because of the

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Speaker 2: move to three D, but because his wife didn't think

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Speaker 2: Nintendo characters were handsome enough.

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Speaker 1: I mean, maybe she's not a mustache fan, because Mario

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Speaker 1: and Luigi are you know, total hanks, and everyone knows it.

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Speaker 1: You've got Kirby Donkey Kong Starfus. I mean, Nintendo games

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Speaker 1: are like stunt Central, right, I mean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're preaching to the choir, but you know, nonetheless, Koiyazumi,

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Speaker 2: he took the feedback seriously and purposely redesigned Link to

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Speaker 2: be more good looking. However, you know, as a compromise

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Speaker 2: to Miyamoto the gameplay and Ocarina of Time actually included

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Speaker 2: both versions of the character, Young Link and adult Link.

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Speaker 2: Who's you know still only meant to be about sixteen

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Speaker 2: or seventeen, And from that point on, all the games

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Speaker 2: in the series have featured Link in one of those

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Speaker 2: two age ranges, between ten and twelve or sixteen and

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Speaker 2: eighteen the teenage heart throb version of Link. He's become

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Speaker 2: the norm for most three D Zelda games, and thankfully

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Speaker 2: Miamoto seems to have made peace with that. When Ocarina

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Speaker 2: of Time was remade for the three DS and twenty eleven,

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Speaker 2: he said, quote, the graphics are even better this time,

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Speaker 2: so Link is even more handsome, just the way Zuni

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Speaker 2: Son's wife likes him.

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Speaker 1: I love that the series was adjusted to make room

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Speaker 1: for all these different interpretations of the character, and it

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Speaker 1: shows just how adaptable this core premise of the game is,

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Speaker 1: and I imagine that's why it's still going strong like

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Speaker 1: after all these years. But in honor of the series

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Speaker 1: forty birthday, today's episode is a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: legend of Zelda, how it came to be, what makes

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Speaker 1: it so special and why it just might be the

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Speaker 1: perfect video game, and because it's dangerous to go alone,

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Speaker 1: we are bringing a few friends and fellow Zelda fans

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Speaker 1: along for the journey, so let's dive in. Hey, their

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Speaker 1: podcast listeners, welcome to part time Genius. I'm Mongi's articular,

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Speaker 1: and because Will would rather play outside than play video games,

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Speaker 1: which is a true statement, I have joined instead by

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Speaker 1: my good pal Gabe Lucier. And over there in the

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Speaker 1: booth sporting a familiar green hat and tunic, that is

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Speaker 1: our friend and producer Dylan Fagan. He is clearly going

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Speaker 1: for a link homage, and the likeness is downright uncanny,

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Speaker 1: except I don't know why he's waving a bunch of

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Speaker 1: Indian rookies around, because last time I checked, the Kingdom

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Speaker 1: of High Rule wasn't on the subcontinent.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it'd be cool if it was, But you know,

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Speaker 2: I think the main reason is that hr nicks to

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Speaker 2: him bringing a sword to work. But you know, also,

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Speaker 2: the in game currency in Zelda games is call rupees,

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Speaker 2: and it's even spelled the same. That's so weird, I know, right,

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Speaker 2: But Zelda rupees are gemstones, you know, not paper money,

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Speaker 2: so they're a little different than and yeah, the game's

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Speaker 2: clearly not said in India. Honestly though, I can relate

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Speaker 2: to Dylan's confusion. I played the early games as a kid,

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Speaker 2: and I remember asking my older brother if rupees were

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Speaker 2: a real thing, and he was like, yeah, that's the

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Speaker 2: currency of India. So you know, for the next few years,

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Speaker 2: I thought everyone in India carried around pouches of like

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Speaker 2: little green and purple gemstones like in Zelda, and I

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Speaker 2: was pretty heartbroken when I learned the truth.

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Speaker 1: To be fair, it is strange that Nintendo chose rupees

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Speaker 1: instead of just like using generic gold is the currency,

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Speaker 1: which it is in like other fantasy games, right, But

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Speaker 1: it's such a specific thing they chose. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I thought too, and so when I

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Speaker 2: looked into it, you know, According to Miamoto, the connection

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Speaker 2: to the Indian rupee was completely unintentional. He thought it

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Speaker 2: would be more interesting and distinct from other games like

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Speaker 2: Mario to have the player collect gem stones instead of coins,

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Speaker 2: and that led him to the word rubies. But since

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Speaker 2: the gemstones in the game weren't always read, he called

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Speaker 2: them rubies, not knowing that the name was already taken

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Speaker 2: by a real life currency.

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Speaker 1: That's so funny and weird, and I guess they just

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Speaker 1: stuck with it ever since, just because I don't know,

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Speaker 1: because they wanted to. It feels like a point of

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Speaker 1: confusion for people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, what about you, Like, did that ever trip

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Speaker 2: you up as a kid?

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't remember. I mean, I do remember

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Speaker 1: being confused when I found out Zelda wasn't the main character,

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Speaker 1: you know, like despite being right there at the title.

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Speaker 1: One of my friends called him Link, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: Who's Link, you know? And the truth is, we were

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Speaker 1: late to get Nintendo, so I only knew about it

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Speaker 1: through this osmosis and stuff, and so like we would

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Speaker 1: like pretend play Zelda. We play all these games like

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Speaker 1: out in the real world, and then I'd go over

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Speaker 1: their house and play video games. But I was like

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Speaker 1: a year behind or two years behind in terms of

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Speaker 1: when we actually got an NES.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's kind of a write

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Speaker 2: of passage anyway, mixing up Link for Zelda.

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Speaker 1: Actually, just speaking of the NES for a second, I

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Speaker 1: remember hinting very very strongly to my parents that I

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Speaker 1: wanted a Nintendo system, and I saw this Nintendo shaped

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Speaker 1: box under the Christmas tree, and I just thought like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, my prayers have been answered. I did

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Speaker 1: all the right legwork with my parents and whatever, and

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Speaker 1: then I opened it up on Christmas. It was like

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Speaker 1: exactly the same size. It was a chemistry cell.

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Speaker 2: Brutal. So you relate to the NES party a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But was the original Zelda? Was that still your entry point,

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Speaker 2: you know to the series?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I remember my friend Chris Sammus down the block

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Speaker 1: did get an NES and I got totally hooked playing

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Speaker 1: Mario at his house, and then Zelda came out and

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Speaker 1: we used to go to my friend's Jeff and Kristen's

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Speaker 1: house and we would play it there and it just

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Speaker 1: blew my mind. It was so different from like any

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Speaker 1: other type of game at the time. The way you

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Speaker 1: moved around the screen, the like fact you could continue

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Speaker 1: a game from where you left off, which just wasn't

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Speaker 1: a thing earlier, and the whole fantasy bit.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: We had a PC, so I played like King's Quest

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and we were obsessed with that

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Speaker 1: as well. But Zelda was just like so fresh, and

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Speaker 1: like I said earlier, like we used to we had

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Speaker 1: these beautiful woods behind our house and with a creek,

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Speaker 1: and we would go sort of enact the video games

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Speaker 1: out there.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, okay, so this was like right up your alley.

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Speaker 2: You were right in the pocket for Zelda.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it was kind of like the digital

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Speaker 1: version of what we were doing in real life anyway.

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Speaker 1: You know, like playing all these imaginary games out there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, imagination is key there, right, because you probably

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Speaker 2: weren't running into a lot of moblins in the woods

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Speaker 2: behind your house.

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Speaker 1: No, But you know, fantasy stories and choose your own

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Speaker 1: adventure stories were big at that time, and I don't know,

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Speaker 1: like all of that was just a way to especially

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Speaker 1: like we had long rides on the bus to school,

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Speaker 1: and so you were like coming up with a video

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Speaker 1: game as a story for a friend and they would

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Speaker 1: have to choose between two doors or like you know,

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Speaker 1: neat a big boss or that type of thing. It

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Speaker 1: really sort of fed our imagination. But I'm curious for you,

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Speaker 1: you're obviously younger than me. Did it have like a

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Speaker 1: similar effect on you? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. I mean that first game. In that

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Speaker 2: first game, you know, the player really calls the shots,

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Speaker 2: and you know that isn't true to the same extent

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Speaker 2: and a lot of the later Zelda games there's a

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Speaker 2: lot more kind of handholding and sign posting to kind

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Speaker 2: of steer the player in the right direction. But in

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Speaker 2: that first one, you're really on your own, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it was kind of strangely empowering as a kid. And

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Speaker 2: in fact, I talked to games journalist John Cartwright from

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Speaker 2: Good Vibes Gaming it's one of my favorite YouTube channels.

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Speaker 2: To check it out if you haven't, and he said

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Speaker 2: that that free wheeling sense of exploration is why that

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Speaker 2: first game still feels so fresh all these years later.

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Speaker 3: The cool thing about Zelder is I think almost every

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Speaker 3: cool game kind of inspires the next league of game design.

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Speaker 3: So you go back to Zelda one, which which plays

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Speaker 3: very differently toward the Zelda games because it just throws

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Speaker 3: you into the world and doesn't really give you an objective.

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Speaker 3: You just explore, You find the dungeons yourselves, you can

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Speaker 3: do them in any order. And so because Zelda doesn't

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Speaker 3: play like that anymore, it's actually really timeless because it's

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Speaker 3: not being replaced, it's not being iterated on, really, and

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Speaker 3: it's still really fun.

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Speaker 1: You know. Timeless is such a great way to put

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Speaker 1: it because the main themes of that game are kind

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Speaker 1: of exploration and discovery, and it's not like those things

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Speaker 1: ever stop being appealing. And like I was saying, Zelda

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Speaker 1: really did echo the kinds of scenarios we were playing

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Speaker 1: out as kids in my neighborhood. But it wasn't until

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Speaker 1: decades later that I learned that that was actually by design.

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Speaker 1: The whole game was inspired by Miamoto's childhood memories from

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties and sixties. He actually grew up in

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Speaker 1: a small rural town called Sonobe, It's just outside Kyoto,

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Speaker 1: and he spent much of his time exploring the surrounding countryside.

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Speaker 1: And you know, he would wander through forests and track

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Speaker 1: through mountains and go spelunking, and sometimes he'd even come

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Speaker 1: across an old forgotten shrine or like a little dirt

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Speaker 1: pathway that might lead to a hidden village, which.

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Speaker 2: Is so awesome. Like the coolest thing I ever found

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Speaker 2: in the woods behind my house were like these old

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Speaker 2: glass soda bottles, and they felt so cool at the

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Speaker 2: time that I would have gladly traded him, like in

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Speaker 2: a heartbeat, for a moss covered shrine.

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Speaker 1: Way better. Yeah, I imagine they're not quite as plentiful

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Speaker 1: as southern Caroland, and certainly not in in northern Delaware,

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Speaker 1: where I'm from. But you know, as you'd expect, those

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Speaker 1: early life adventures really stuck with Miyamoto, and two decades later,

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Speaker 1: when he was looking to create a new game for

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Speaker 1: the Famicon this system, he decided to make one that

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Speaker 1: captured that same sense of thrill and wonder that he

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Speaker 1: had felt as a young explorer. He was very explicit

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Speaker 1: about that goal in this twenty eleven interview. He said, quote,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to recreate the places I played in as

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Speaker 1: a child, but create more streamlined and connected versions of them,

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Speaker 1: to create a boxed garden.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so just like you were saying, a digital version

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Speaker 2: of a real life adventure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. But make a game like that turned out

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Speaker 1: to be easier said than done, thanks to all the

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Speaker 1: technical constraints at the time. So why don't we take

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Speaker 1: a quick break, and when we come back, I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you how Miamoto and his team actually pulled it off.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Part Time Genius and our perilous journey

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Speaker 1: through the Kingdom of High Rule. Okay, Gabe, so I

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Speaker 1: was saying before the break, recreating the huge open spaces

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Speaker 1: that Miyamoto had explored as a child was really quite

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Speaker 1: a tall order for the technology of the early eighties.

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Speaker 1: Nintendo's then current hardware was the eight bit cartridge based

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Speaker 1: Famicon or Family Computer. The same system was later released

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Speaker 1: in the US as the nes or Nintendo Entertainment System,

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Speaker 1: and Miamoto knew that the console wouldn't be up to

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Speaker 1: the challenge on its own. Luckily, though, the company was

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Speaker 1: preparing to release a new add on accessory for the console,

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Speaker 1: the Famicon Disc System, and this was capable of reading

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Speaker 1: floppy discs. The device allowed designers to create sort of

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Speaker 1: bigger and longer games than those that could fit on

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Speaker 1: a standard cartridge, and this meant they could program more

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Speaker 1: enemies and items and bosses, more complex behaviors, and also

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Speaker 1: more beautiful backgrounds. Right, And most importantly for Miyamoto, it

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Speaker 1: meant that you could create these larger game worlds. Right.

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Speaker 2: And that's also what allowed them to add the save

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Speaker 2: function you mentioned earlier, right, because you know, cartridge games

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Speaker 2: they only had those clunky password systems.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's even it's hard to think back about, right,

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Speaker 1: like how much this stuff has evolved. But if you

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Speaker 1: want to continue a game from where you left off,

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Speaker 1: you had to write down this long, complicated password. You

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Speaker 1: also have to make sure you didn't lose it right then,

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Speaker 1: and then slowly type it all in again. It really

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Speaker 1: was like this massive hassle. But with the dis system,

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Speaker 1: the disc memory could actually be rewritten in real time,

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Speaker 1: which allowed players to save their progress and pick it

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Speaker 1: up later, and you didn't need a password. The Legend

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Speaker 1: of Zelda was the first console game to implement that

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Speaker 1: kind of save function, but other developers took notice and

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Speaker 1: the feature quickly became industry standard.

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Speaker 2: It makes so much sense that that Zelda was the

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Speaker 2: starting point for that, Like it doesn't have traditional levels

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Speaker 2: that you play in a set order, and the game

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Speaker 2: map was so much bigger than other titles. There was

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Speaker 2: no way the average player was gonna, you know, explore

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Speaker 2: all that in one sitting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And actually, during initial development, Mimoto built a two

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Speaker 1: player prototype of the game that was entirely focused on

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Speaker 1: level creation, so one player would craft their own sprawling

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Speaker 1: maze or dungeon, and once it was finished, a second

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Speaker 1: player could actually explore their friend's creation. This save function

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Speaker 1: would have been crucial there as well. You know or else,

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Speaker 1: all that hard work that would just get erased, right

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Speaker 1: like when you turned off the system.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I didn't know Zelda started out

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Speaker 2: as a level creator. That's pretty wild, Like, it feels

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Speaker 2: very ambitious for the time. I wonder why they scrapped it, though.

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Speaker 1: I think Miyamoto just realized that the exploration was the

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Speaker 1: most fun part, so he shifted focus and started building

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Speaker 1: an expansive world for players to journey through, rather than

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Speaker 1: making them design these games on their own right. And

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Speaker 1: the new approach made the game much more engaging, but

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Speaker 1: it also called for more narrativelopments than Miyamoto had first envisioned,

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Speaker 1: because with that sort of level creator game, the goal

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Speaker 1: had been to just reach the end of the maze.

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Speaker 1: But now that players were sort of being set loose

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Speaker 1: on this giant map, they need more context and more

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Speaker 1: direction and a reason to explore all the different parts

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Speaker 1: of it. So to help fill in those details, Mimoto

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Speaker 1: teamed up with the co director and writer. His name's

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Speaker 1: Takashi Tezuka, and to get the pair came up with

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Speaker 1: this fairytale like story. It was inspired by medieval folklore

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Speaker 1: fantasy novels, kind of like the Lure of the Rings,

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Speaker 1: and the protagonist, as we all know, is this young

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Speaker 1: swordsman named Link who must embark on an epic quest

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Speaker 1: through this treacherous kingdom of High Rule. His goal is

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Speaker 1: to repair a powerful sacred relic called the Triforce of

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Speaker 1: Wisdom and rescue the titular Princess Zelda. Of course, she's

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Speaker 1: been held in the clutches of the series. Is evil

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Speaker 1: archvillain Gannon.

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Speaker 2: Oh sure, yeah, a tale is old as time. But

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Speaker 2: you know, I do wonder how many kids back then

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Speaker 2: were even aware of the game's story, Like, aside from

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Speaker 2: a little blurb in the title screen, the plot was

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Speaker 2: it was really only spelled out in the manual, So

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Speaker 2: if you just booted up the game without reading it

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Speaker 2: like I did, you wouldn't really know who was who

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Speaker 2: or like what the story was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is again probably why we all thought Link's

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Speaker 1: name was Zelda, right, Like, none of us were reading

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Speaker 1: the man in and then excited exactly.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, to be fair, Nintendo kind of

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Speaker 2: set us all up to fail on that one. Like

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Speaker 2: in pac Man, you play as pac Man. In Mario

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Speaker 2: you play as Mario, so naturally, in the legend of Zelda.

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Speaker 2: You expect to play a Zelda, but no, and then

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Speaker 2: to really mess with all of us. You know, the

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Speaker 2: game starts by having you enter your name, and I

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Speaker 2: distinctly remember putting Zelda because I thought that's the character's name,

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Speaker 2: and when I found out he was actually called Link,

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Speaker 2: I had to start over, you know, with a new

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Speaker 2: save file. I couldn't handle it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean I don't know that you had to,

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Speaker 1: but I just said that now, since we're back on

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Speaker 1: the subject. For anyone wondering where the name Zelda came from,

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Speaker 1: it's actually a reference to Zelda Fitzgerald, the famous novelist

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Speaker 1: in Panter, who was also the wife of f Scott Fitzgerald. Apparently,

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Speaker 1: Miamoto and his team weren't that familiar with her life

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Speaker 1: or her work, but they like the sound of her

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Speaker 1: name and they thought it would add this sort of

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Speaker 1: regal error to the title. The character of Zelda doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a lot to do in the original game. She's

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Speaker 1: basically just, you know, this cliche damsel in distress, but

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Speaker 1: she does become a bigger part of the story and

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Speaker 1: takes more of an active role in later games. So

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Speaker 1: it's safe to say she's earned her a spot in

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Speaker 1: the title.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Plus, you know, the legend of Link really doesn't

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Speaker 2: have the same ring to it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I do like the rationale of calling the

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Speaker 1: protagonist Link though, because Miamoto said he chose the name

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Speaker 1: because the character is the point of connection or the

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Speaker 1: link between the player and this game world. So in

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Speaker 1: some sense, that's supposed to be us on the screen

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Speaker 1: or our digital alter ego going on this grand adventure.

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Speaker 1: I even found this, like great interview from nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: nine here, let me pull it up, and Miamoto spells

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Speaker 1: it out, saying, quote, I want to create a game

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Speaker 1: world that conveyed the same feeling you get when you

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Speaker 1: are exploring a new city for the first time. How

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Speaker 1: fun would it be? I thought if I could make

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Speaker 1: the player identify with the main character in the game

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Speaker 1: and get completely lost and immersed in that world.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of amazing how cleanly they hit that mark,

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Speaker 2: like right out of the gate, and we're then able

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Speaker 2: to carry that forward to other entries, because everyone I

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Speaker 2: talked to says that, Yeah, like they really did identify

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Speaker 2: with the little elf guy on the screen. In fact,

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Speaker 2: listen to how John Cartwright describes it.

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Speaker 3: I think it's the same thing for Spider Man, like

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Speaker 3: anyone can wear that mask, and a lot of the

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Speaker 3: time of Link, because it's in third person in three

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Speaker 3: D games, you'll see in the back of his head

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Speaker 3: it's just that green tunic cat and like that could

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Speaker 3: be me, Yeah, that could be anybody.

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Speaker 2: So another thing John mentioned is that Nintendo protagonists tend

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Speaker 2: to be blank slates for players to project themselves onto,

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Speaker 2: which is one reason why there's so little dialogue in

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Speaker 2: their games. And that's especially the case with Link. He's

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Speaker 2: very archetypal. His personality isn't well defined, and that that

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Speaker 2: makes it easier for the player to imagine themselves in

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Speaker 2: his shoes. And it was the same thing with you know,

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Speaker 2: typing your name at the start of the game. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I did the boring thing and entered Link's name, but

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Speaker 2: you know, the option to put your own name, it

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Speaker 2: was really an invitation to claim the story for yourself

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Speaker 2: and to say, you know, this is my adventure.

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Speaker 1: Looking back, it really did feel like an epic adventure

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Speaker 1: as a kid, right, Like you had to Guidelink across

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Speaker 1: all these different landscapes, deserts, forest cemeteries and fight a

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Speaker 1: bunch of weird monsters. Plus you had to keep an

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Speaker 1: eye out for secret pathways and hidden items, and there

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Speaker 1: was just this enormous sense of scale to the game,

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Speaker 1: and that was further heightened by its unique top down perspective,

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Speaker 1: which gave the player a bird's eye view of High Rule.

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Speaker 1: You know, the apic graphics may look pretty bare bones

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Speaker 1: by today's standards, but that original game world still feels

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Speaker 1: really expansive and awfully immersive to me even now. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the art style was a real master class in

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Speaker 2: accomplishing a lot with a little and the same goes

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Speaker 2: for the game's music, which was all done by Nintendo's

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Speaker 2: in house composer Kogikondo. I actually talked to another YouTuber.

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Speaker 2: His real name is Dave, but he goes by killer

403
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Speaker 2: Karp on his channel, and he has an amazing collection

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Speaker 2: of vintage Nintendo toys and he's an avid retro gamer,

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Speaker 2: and he told me that the look and sound of

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Speaker 2: the original Zelda are what really hooked him on the series.

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Speaker 4: It's a beautiful hodgepodge of like Greek mythology and the

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Speaker 4: amazing minds of Japanese artists. I was obsessed as a kid,

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Speaker 4: with all the weapons and items that you could get

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Speaker 4: throughout the game. I just remember looking in the books

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Speaker 4: and the game guides and Nintendo Powers and just drawing

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Speaker 4: the meat on the bone and the blue potion and

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Speaker 4: the red potion, all the different swords, all the different

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Speaker 4: things that you could get and a crew throughout the game.

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Speaker 4: But from a bigger scope of lore and what makes

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Speaker 4: it stand out. It's tough to put your finger on

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Speaker 4: it because it kind of borrows from so many things,

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Speaker 4: and the soup just becomes Zelda in its own unique way.

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Speaker 4: The music is a huge part of it. That opening

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Speaker 4: screen with the waterfall and the pink sky and the

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Speaker 4: music coming on, you get chills.

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Speaker 1: You know. Nintendo was so smart to make the music

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Speaker 1: go that hard because you wander around a lot in

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Speaker 1: this game, so you get so familiar with that theme song.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, and so much of that game's challenge

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Speaker 2: is just figuring out where to go and what to do.

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Speaker 2: I still get lost and I've been playing it for decades.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so apparently the original map was no joke. It

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Speaker 1: had one hundred and twenty eight connected screens to get

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Speaker 1: lost in, plus those underground dungeons which were their own

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Speaker 1: separate mazes of rooms and boss fights. Like if you

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00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: knew all the tricks and secrets, or if you actually

433
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 1: use the map that came with a manual, then you

434
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 1: could beat the game in like an hour. But for

435
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: first timers it could easily take ten hours or more,

436
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 1: which you know is actually a long time for a

437
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 1: game of that era.

438
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you think ten hours is rough. Killer Karp

439
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 2: told me he was so stumped as a kid that

440
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 2: he set the game aside for a full ten years

441
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 2: before he finally felt ready to finish it.

442
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 4: Once I was old enough to actually play the game

443
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 4: in the late eighties, couldn't get very far. And then

444
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 4: it was in my high school years when I really

445
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 4: dug in and actually beat the game. And I was

446
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 4: a freshman in high school with my best friend Ryan,

447
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 4: and I remember it clearly. We beat it on May fifteenth,

448
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 4: and from that day forward we called that day Zelda Day.

449
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 4: That was the day we got all the try force

450
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 4: and defeated Gannon and restored Light to High Rule and

451
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 4: save Princes Zelda. We did not have any players, guides

452
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 4: or maps. We kind of just had to go through

453
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 4: the game, burn every bush, move every rock, and it

454
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 4: took a long long time to get through.

455
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: I mean the fact that he remember the exact date

456
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 1: tells you how big a deal it was to beat

457
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 1: this game. Like, it really doesn't matter how old you are.

458
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 1: If you roll credits without using a guide, then you've

459
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: earned yourself some serious bragging rights, right Yeah.

460
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 2: Which is kind of wild when you think about it. Like,

461
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 2: adult players were not a huge part of the video

462
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 2: game market back then like they are today. Kids were

463
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 2: the target audience for the original Zelda, and the developers

464
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 2: did not go easy on them.

465
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. I actually read that during pre release testing a

466
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: lot of players got lost in the dungeons and were

467
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 1: annoyed by the lack of sort of this like clear

468
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 1: cut objective. But Miyamoto stood his ground, and he really

469
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: refused to water down the difficulty. He believed that the

470
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: non linear aspects of the game actually encouraged players to

471
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: work together and share tips and made it more like

472
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,360
Speaker 1: community oriented in a way.

473
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is you know exactly what happened for Killer

474
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 2: Karp and his buddy Ryan.

475
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 1: I mean, Miyamoto really like sort of planned for this,

476
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: But that's not to say he was completely confident in

477
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: the game at the time. Star Wars, you know, had

478
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: made a huge splash, and science fiction was all the

479
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: rage and pop culture, and Miamoto really worried that kids

480
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 1: wouldn't connect with this like fantasy setting of Zelda, and

481
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: he later reflected, quote, a world of swords in magic

482
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: really wasn't considered mainstream at the time. I really didn't

483
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: expect the response I got.

484
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 2: Which was what exactly like. Because it's a fan favorite

485
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: today obviously, but how did folks feel about it at launch?

486
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: Well, the Famicon disc system was a flop and never

487
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: actually released outside of Japan, but the legend of Zelda

488
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: was this completely different story. It was by far the

489
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: system's strongest seller when it launched in Japan on February

490
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,880
Speaker 1: twenty first, nineteen eighty six. The game was then re

491
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: released for the regular Fabicon a year later, thanks to

492
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: a new kind of cartridge that had a stronger memory

493
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: chip and battery powered RAM. The American version of the

494
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: game was released about six months later, in August of

495
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, and as I'm sure you remember, our

496
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 1: version sport an eye catching gold colored cartridge which you

497
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 1: know stood out from the rest of the standard gray ones.

498
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, that gold was your first col that

499
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 2: this game was truly something special. It doesn't get much

500
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 2: more iconic than that cartridge. And those babies, let me

501
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: tell you, they still shine like the sun at yard sales.

502
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 2: You can see them from a mile away.

503
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I guess that like marketing and that

504
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: premium presentation actually paid off, because Legend of Zelda went

505
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: on to sell more than seven million copies worldwide, and

506
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 1: while many of its players did experience frustration of like

507
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 1: getting lost on those world maps, they also discovered the

508
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: satisfaction of finding their way, you know, eventually.

509
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: Right, And that's maybe the craziest thing about that first game,

510
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 2: and really most games in the Zelda series, even if

511
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 2: you never fully finish it, you still have a great

512
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,959
Speaker 2: time playing and the experience sticks with you because you know,

513
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 2: the game design is just that strong.

514
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: You know. I've definitely started more Zelda games than I

515
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: finished in my lifetime. But when the next one rolls around, like,

516
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: I'm always back on board, and I love that It's

517
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: become a thing that like my son loves.

518
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

519
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really speaks to the quality of the series.

520
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: Every few years you see those listicles come out right.

521
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: Top ten video Games of all time or whatever, and

522
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: it is almost always a legend of Zelda game in

523
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 2: the top spot. Like the winning game changes over time,

524
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: as you know, new entries come to the forefront, but

525
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: the series as a whole is ranked the best pretty consistently.

526
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one of the few things that video game

527
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: fans seem to agree on, and after we take a

528
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: quick break, we're going to try to pin down exactly

529
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: why that is. So stay tuned, Welcome back to part

530
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: time genius, Okay Gabe. So far, we've talked mostly about

531
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: the first game in the Zelda series, which is known

532
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: in Japan as Zelda no den Setsu The High Rule

533
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: of Fantasy. It was popular enough to spawn dozens of

534
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: sequels and spin offs over the past forty years, and

535
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: many of those games are now just as beloved, if

536
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 1: not more so, than the original. So I'm curious, what

537
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: do you think has kept the series going so strong

538
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: for all this time? Like, what is that secret? Sauce?

539
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 2: Honestly, I racked my brain trying to figure that out,

540
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 2: and aside from the humbling work ethic of Japanese game designers,

541
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: it's hard to land on a single satisfying answer. But

542
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 2: that said, I do think John Cartwright came pretty darn

543
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 2: close to cracking it.

544
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 3: There were all games where you start from very small nothingness,

545
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 3: like you're just a guy in a house and you

546
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 3: end up being the person responsible for saving the world.

547
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 3: But what really makes it different, I'd say, is the

548
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 3: vibe to it all the atmosphere and the way the

549
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 3: characters talk to you. It never feels that dark. There's

550
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 3: always like a hopefulness to Zelder, which keeps it feeling

551
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 3: fun rather than daunting a lot of the time, and

552
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 3: that's remained consistent through every single game. There's always this

553
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 3: quirkiness to the characters. There's also this familiarity towards them

554
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 3: because most of them use different links and different Zeldas

555
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 3: and different versions of Hiral, but you recognize things that

556
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 3: you recognize Kakariko Village, you recognize the Great Decutree, so

557
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 3: it kind of feels like you're coming home every time,

558
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 3: even if the context of it was always like completely

559
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 3: different there.

560
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 2: So there's three things John hits on there, relatability, familiarity,

561
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 2: and freshness. So the first one is what we've been

562
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: talking about all day, the longing for adventure, the freedom

563
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: of exploring outside the feeling of being just a guy

564
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: in a house. Those are experiences we can all relate to,

565
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: and the idea of familiarity and the feeling of coming home,

566
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: that's a key component of Miyamoto's design philosophy. I found

567
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: an interview he did in nineteen ninety one for the

568
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 2: release of the third game in the series, the Legend

569
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: of Zelda, a Link to the Past, and the interviewer

570
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: asks if there's a limit to the ideas that can

571
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 2: be implemented in a video game, and Miamoto responds, quote,

572
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: it's a game designer's job to figure out how to compile, file,

573
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 2: and program ideas from the real world into a video game.

574
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: I think the ability to collect and organize is even

575
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: more important to making games than the power of imagination

576
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 2: and creativity. It's all about selecting, amplifying, and organizing those ideas.

577
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: I kind of get what he means, because even though

578
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: Zelda is a fantasy series, the whole game world really

579
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: isn't that different from ours. Right aside from the monsters,

580
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: the settings are like familiar landscapes. You've got like fields

581
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: and mountains, deserts. The physics are the same, Even things

582
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: like how cracked walls are easier to break than solid ones,

583
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: or how you can cut the grass with your sword

584
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: and later games, there's a fidelity between our world and

585
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: links world that I think is really satisfying, Like things

586
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: work the way you'd expect them to.

587
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and that translation of real world inspiration into

588
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 2: the digital world that exists really in every facet of

589
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: the series, even when we aren't fully aware of it.

590
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 2: For instance, and when the series made the jump to

591
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: three D and the Ocarina of Time, the developers had

592
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: to figure out a way to handle combat in a

593
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: three dimensional space. So ha, if Link was attacked by

594
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 2: multiple enemies at once, it was hard for the player

595
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: to like position the camera so they could focus their

596
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 2: strikes on, you know, a single opponent. So the team

597
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: came up with what they called Z targeting. It was

598
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: this really ingenious system. When the player presses the Z button,

599
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: the viewpoint would automatically shift to a view from directly

600
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: behind Link, allowing him to kind of lock on to

601
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 2: specific enemies and you know, attack them systematically. But that mechanic,

602
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: it wasn't something they pulled out of thin air. The

603
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: game's directors went to see a sword fighting demonstration at

604
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 2: a local theme park in Japan, and they paid close

605
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: attention to the combatants' movements, and they noticed that when

606
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: one person was fighting against many, his opponents would attack

607
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: in order, one at a time. That same day, they

608
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: also watched a kusurigami demonstration, which is a a weapon

609
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 2: composed of like a sickle attached to a chain, and

610
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 2: that gave them the idea of establishing this invisible chain

611
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: between Link and his enemies. So when you use Z targeting,

612
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: you would move in an arc around the opponent that

613
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 2: you've locked onto, like that chain is stretched between you,

614
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: and that would allow you to kind of find the

615
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: best angle from which to deal a blow.

616
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: That's pretty fascinating because of course, the average player isn't

617
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: going to make that connection between Link's movements and some

618
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: sort of like traditional samurai stage show. But there's something

619
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: about the system that still feels intuitive and correct because

620
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: it's ultimately rooted in these real world techniques.

621
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, Nintendo had been incorporating real world

622
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: ideas into the series like that pretty much since the

623
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: first game, but ak Aina really ratcheted up the approach

624
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: because you know, of the three D visuals, for example,

625
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 2: I read this interview with Miyamoto from twenty eleven where

626
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 2: he talks about trying to bring chicken flying into the

627
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 2: three D games. But chicken flying, all right, yeah, well,

628
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 2: well cucko flying if you want to get technical, right,

629
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: Chickens and Zelda are called cuckos. But uh yeah, there

630
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 2: was this unused mechanic from a link to the past

631
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: on the Super Nintendo where you were supposed to be

632
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: able to grab a chicken, jump off a ledge and

633
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 2: kind of like flutterfly to the ground. It wound up

634
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 2: being cut, you know, but the team later revived it

635
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 2: for Ocarina. They had that much faith in it, and

636
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: you know, as Miyamoto explained, quote, I thought chicken flying

637
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: would be weird if the graphics were more realistic. But

638
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 2: when we made it, I was happy to see that

639
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: it fit perfectly. I realized that those kinds of things

640
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 2: are more fun in a three D space, So all

641
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 2: of a sudden, I said, let's make the landforms more

642
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 2: three dimensional. I started referencing villages and mountainous districts in China,

643
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: such as you might see in a documentary. I was saying, see,

644
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: there are all kinds of villages and can't we make

645
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 2: a more distinctive village And just then it connected perfectly

646
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: to the chickens.

647
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: I love that, and I'm also not sure I completely

648
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: understand it, but it's such a small, silly thing, But

649
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 1: I love how he's so inspired by the chicken flying

650
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: that it improves the way the landscapes look. There's something

651
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: really like fun about that whole statement and the way

652
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: he views the world.

653
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 3: Yeah.

654
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it's also a really clear example of what

655
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 2: Miamoto calls hospitality in game design.

656
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: So the idea is that.

657
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: You try to anticipate all the little things that the

658
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 2: player will want to do, and you know that they'd

659
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 2: be disappointed if they couldn't do. And that includes things

660
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 2: like cutting the grass with your sword or jumping off

661
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: a slope while holding a chicken. None of it is

662
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 2: like strictly necessary. It doesn't affect the overall story or

663
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 2: the gameplay, but it adds a spark of joy, right

664
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: and satisfaction for the player, and it also makes the

665
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: game world feel that much more familiar and alive. It

666
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: feels like the kind of thing that leaves this like

667
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: wonderful lasting impression players because it shows the designers really

668
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: cared about crafting a good experience and were willing to

669
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: put the extra effort in to deliver, whether or not

670
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 2: the player realizes it.

671
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

672
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 2: Absolutely. John told me that Ocarina was his gateway Zelda game,

673
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 2: and a big reason that he fell for it so

674
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,720
Speaker 2: hard was that care and attention to detail.

675
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 3: Growing up, I played a lot of games, but nothing

676
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 3: that was that high quality. And then one day I

677
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 3: played Okarno of Time and it changed my perspective and

678
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 3: what games were. This was around two thousand and four.

679
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 3: An Okernam of Time came out in ninety eight, so

680
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 3: six years old at that point, but it was still

681
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 3: just really far ahead of other games in terms of

682
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 3: scope and adventure. So even though the visuals weren't more

683
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 3: limited compared to what was out there, the pure design

684
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: language was timeless. Back on the PlayStation Sega Saturn N

685
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 3: sixty four, there weren't that many big three D adventure games.

686
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 3: Most of them tried to limit the scope because it

687
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 3: was very hard to make that kind of world. So

688
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 3: to go the extra mile to have all these strange

689
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 3: chemical reactions which wouldn't exist in other games was kind

690
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 3: of unheard of, and it's mad that they pulled it

691
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 3: off so well, But I think it's part of why

692
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 3: the game still feels so timeless overall these years, because

693
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 3: those elements are still quite rare today that even if

694
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 3: the visuals may look of their era, the field doesn't.

695
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 1: It is amazing that so many of these games still

696
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: hold their own no matter how much time goes by. Like,

697
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: they're all pretty similar in some regards, but because the

698
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: developers keep chasing innovation, there's always some like, you know,

699
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: special new hook or feature that makes each new entry unique. Yeah.

700
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 2: It all goes back to that idea of freshness, So

701
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 2: no matter how familiar the series gets, there's always something

702
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 2: new to pull you in, whether it's three D visuals

703
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 2: or horse riding, or sailing between different islands or making

704
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 2: link more handsome. Players know that Nintendo doesn't rest on

705
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: its laurels, you know, when it comes to this series,

706
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 2: so there's always reason to get excited for each new entry.

707
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: It is a tricky balancing act, though, because you want

708
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: to preserve the feel of the series and you know,

709
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 2: all the aspects that longtime players have come to expect,

710
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 2: while also ensuring that the games remain accessible and never

711
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 2: feel too Samey and I think it's safe to say

712
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 2: that Breath of the Wild, for the switch, that was

713
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 2: really the high water mark in terms of striking that balance.

714
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 3: When you look at all the Zelders through the years,

715
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 3: I'd say there's a couple of pivotal points. So the

716
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 3: first zeld is one of them. A Link to the

717
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 3: Pass is the next one, where it just really just

718
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 3: makes what the Zelda formula even is today. They're ockera

719
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 3: of time doing it in three D, and then there

720
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 3: was kind of a lull where they were very comfortable

721
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 3: making that kind of game for a while, like Operative Time,

722
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 3: Joy's Mask, which is a cool outlier, Win Wake a

723
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 3: Twilette Princess, Like they're great games, but they don't really

724
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 3: push the industry forward and took all the way until

725
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 3: Breath of the Wild, where finally it became a huge deal,

726
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 3: skyrocketedt what Zelda was all for the fact that it

727
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 3: just did something really different and new the first time

728
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 3: in maybe fifteen years at that point.

729
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I definitely remember watching my son Henry play

730
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: it for the first time in like twenty seventeen and thinking,

731
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: this really is the promise of that original Zelda, and

732
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: it was so fully realized. That sense of like freedom

733
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: and exploration and all that stuff that felt novel in

734
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: the original game suddenly was elevated to like, I don't know,

735
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: like the million degree right. If you saw a mountain

736
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 1: in the distance, you could run and gallop and hang

737
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: glide your way to it and then climate to see

738
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: what was on the other side. And all those limitations

739
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: and restraints that you had from either like the graphics

740
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: or the discs or the memory or whatever, like, all

741
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: of that was completely lifted and you could go anywhere.

742
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: It really was pretty stunning to me. You know. One

743
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: of the keys to all of this is that the

744
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: laws of nature in the game actually aligned with real

745
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: world physics, and the items become less durable and break

746
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: over time, which I think is really fascinating. Metal objects

747
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 1: conduct electricity. You have a finite amount of stamina before

748
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 1: you get tired and you can't run or climb anymore.

749
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: I think, like what you were saying about before, right,

750
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: like the idea that this world behaves as you'd expect

751
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: it to, and because all these systems that are connected,

752
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: it really allows the player to experiment and come up

753
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: with their own solutions. You know, if you run out

754
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: of stamina while climbing that mountain, right, that really isn't

755
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: a problem. You can just set the grass on fire,

756
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: which creates an op draft of warm air, and then

757
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: pop open your paraglider and ride the current all the

758
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 1: way to the top. Yeah, there you go.

759
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: It's just that easy. And you know, I like that

760
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 2: you describe Breath of the Wild as the fulfillment of

761
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 2: that original Zelda. That's actually exactly how Miamoto and the

762
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 2: team at Nintendo saw it too. In a twenty sixteen

763
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 2: interview promoting the game, Miamoto said, quote, back in the day,

764
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 2: the legend of Zelda was built upon the ideas of

765
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 2: great freedom of action and miniature gardens. As the series evolved,

766
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 2: we turned it more and more into a game with

767
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: a single path to follow. This pushed us to create

768
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 2: bigger and more complex dungeons and to design puzzles requiring

769
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: specific items, which led to very linear games. So we

770
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,720
Speaker 2: decided to go back to the roots of the saga

771
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: and start developing the game we're showing you today, so

772
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 2: Breath of the Wild. It was kind of a return

773
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 2: to form for the series while still pushing it in

774
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: completely new directions. And then the team doubled down on

775
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 2: that open ended, physics based approach in the direct follow

776
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 2: up game, Tiers of the Kingdom. In that one, you

777
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 2: not only have all of high Rule to explore, you

778
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 2: can also build these like customized vehicles that let you

779
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 2: explore deep underground or like soar high above through this

780
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 2: like chain of floating islands. It's funny, right, because it

781
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 2: almost feels like too many options and too much for you,

782
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: Like do you know where to start? Yeah, I know

783
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 2: what you mean. But that's kind of the great thing

784
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 2: about it, Like there's no wrong or right answer. You

785
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,479
Speaker 2: can progress through the game in any direction at any

786
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 2: speed you want, and you know, still have a great

787
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 2: time doing it. And while that's a very different approach

788
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 2: compared to other three D adventure games, which tend to

789
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 2: be much more linear, it's actually right in line with

790
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: Miamoto's vision of the series from the very beginning. A

791
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 2: few years after the first game was released, he told

792
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 2: an interviewer quote, I don't want to make games where

793
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 2: the player is just a puppet in the hands of

794
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: the creator, playing exactly as scripted. I want to present

795
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 2: games that are more like pure toys, something you can use,

796
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 2: explore and play with freely.

797
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: Which you know, mission accomplished. And really it is so

798
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: cool that he had that sort of clarity of vision

799
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: from the very start, and also that he's been able

800
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: to like pass it along to all these designers who've

801
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: taken the reins of the series. It is still amazing

802
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: to me that link is over the hill. But I'm

803
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: excited to see where he progresses over the next forty years,

804
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 1: and also to see whether you and I will still

805
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 1: be playing.

806
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, I've got some great news on

807
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 2: that front. A couple months back, Killer Karp introduced the

808
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 2: world to a ninety one year old Zelda fan named

809
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 2: Jim who still plays the games every day. What Yeah,

810
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 2: her story it is like this beautiful reminder that this series,

811
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: this hobby, it doesn't have an age limit.

812
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 4: So Jan is ninety one going on ninety two, and

813
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 4: she first got into gaming in the mid nineties when

814
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 4: her grandson was interested in playing. She had a five

815
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 4: year old grandson and he didn't have a way to game,

816
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 4: so he was staying with her. She took him to

817
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 4: Walmart and she bought him everything he needed. She bought

818
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,399
Speaker 4: him the TV, she bought him the N sixty four

819
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 4: she bought him Mario and she bought him Okerina of Time,

820
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 4: and that was how they bonded. And when he wanted

821
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 4: to take everything home with him, she said, actually no.

822
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 4: She was hooked. And from that point forward she became

823
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 4: obsessed with video games, and not just video games, but

824
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 4: specifically Zelda. That was her favorite. That was the one

825
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 4: that stuck the most, and she has played every Zelda

826
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 4: game right up into the switch. I've always wondered if

827
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 4: I'll be you know that Grandpa playing Contra, And I

828
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 4: guess I can be and I will be. And I

829
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 4: think she gave a lot of people that feeling that

830
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 4: that they can gain as long as they want to

831
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 4: and no one can stop them, and there's no stigma

832
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 4: that can get in the way of doing what you love.

833
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 4: And I think that's really what resonated with a ton

834
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 4: of people. We can see ourselves someday being jam and

835
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 4: not being ashamed of it.

836
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: Oh, that is so heartwarming and I guess inspiring because

837
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,479
Speaker 1: I feel like I want to play as geriatric link

838
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: when I am also jeriatic.

839
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 2: Well may we all be so lucky? All right?

840
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: Well, before we bring this journey to a close, do

841
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: you have any parting advice for listeners who may want

842
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: to dip their toes in the Zelda series. Right, there

843
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: are obviously tons of games out there now, and most

844
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 1: of them have a pretty high pedigree. So where would

845
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: you say is a good entree? Like? Where where should

846
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: people Stugh.

847
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 2: That's a tough question, you know. The good news is that,

848
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: with very rare exceptions, these are self contained, standalone stories.

849
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 2: A couple of them do connect, but for the most

850
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 2: part you can just ignore all the fan theories about

851
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,240
Speaker 2: timelines and just play them in any order you want.

852
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 2: After all, these are legends, right, so you know, there's

853
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 2: no definitive version of the story of Link saving High Rule.

854
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 2: They're all kind of iterations on the same basic theme,

855
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 2: so they're all valid. My personal favorite is probably Link's Awakening,

856
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 2: which was originally made for the Game Boy but was

857
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 2: then remade for the Switch a few years back. It's

858
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 2: kind of an oddball Zelda game because it doesn't actually

859
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 2: take place in High Rule, which is a rarity. But

860
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 2: it is charming and it has all the great Zelda hallmarks,

861
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 2: plus a very bizarre, very meta storyline. There's a twist

862
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 2: coming at the end that you won't see, so that

863
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 2: would probably be my pick. But you know that, said

864
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: our two guests today, they're really the experts here and

865
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 2: they both had some very strong feelings on this question,

866
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 2: so let's give them the last word.

867
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 4: I can't imagine playing Zelda without having the foundation of

868
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 4: the original games, so I would say that you can't

869
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 4: move forward with Zelda without at least holding that gold

870
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 4: painted cartridge in your hands, and if you're able to

871
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 4: play it, and it's maybe too rudimentary for you, playing

872
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 4: to the past, I think that's the most timeless Zelda

873
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 4: game that we'll have, and the perfect representation of what

874
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 4: Zelda originally was meant to be and what it could

875
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 4: eventually become.

876
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 3: I'd say, if you're interested in checking out Zelder, I

877
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 3: wouldn't worry too much about what people are saying is

878
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 3: the best one, because we have all started with a

879
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 3: different Zelda. We all have our favorites and they are

880
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,720
Speaker 3: all excellent. Whatever you start with will probably be great.

881
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 3: I'd recommend a few like Ocarina or of the Wild

882
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 3: a link to the past, but it doesn't matter that much.

883
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 3: I think just forge your own adventure, don't look up guides,

884
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 3: don't try and find the best most efficient way to play.

885
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 3: Just take it as it is, and that's that's how

886
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 3: you find all the fun. It's just taking your own journey,

887
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 3: making it your own. Don't worry about what people tell

888
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 3: you to do.

889
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: So that is great advice. And actually, I know this

890
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 1: is a little unorthodox, but what do you say we

891
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: give them today's trophy?

892
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: Oh I am way ahead of you, mango. I've already

893
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: broken the trophy into three separate pieces. Try for style.

894
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 2: There's one for John, one for Kart, and one to

895
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 2: be enshrined in a subterranean labyrinth where only the most

896
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 2: courageous warrior can ever hope to reach it.

897
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: That is good thinking. And for anyone else who wants

898
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 1: to celebrate Zelda's fourtieth anniversary, give us a call it

899
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: three two four, five, five nine two five to tell

900
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: us your favorite game in the series or a fun

901
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: memory of playing it, playing Nintendo playing video games. Whatever

902
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: you want, we want to hear from you. You can

903
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 1: also send us an email at high Geniuses at gmail

904
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: dot com. That's Hi, Geniuses at gmail dot com. You

905
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: can also find us on Blue Sky and Instagram at

906
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,800
Speaker 1: part time Genius. We always love hearing from you. Big thanks,

907
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: to John Cartwright and Killer Karp for speaking with us.

908
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: Be sure to check out the links to their work

909
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,720
Speaker 1: in the show notes below. We will be back again

910
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: next week, but in the meantime, from Will, Dylan, Gabe, Mary,

911
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 1: and myself, thank you so much for listening. Part Time

912
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. It is

913
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: hosted by my good pal Will Pearson, who I've known

914
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: for almost three decades now. That is insane to me.

915
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: I'm the Utaco host, Mangeshatikular aka Mango. Our producer is

916
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: Mary Phillips and she's actually a super producer. I'm going

917
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: to fix that in post. Our writer is Gabe Lucier,

918
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 1: who I've also known for like a decade at this point,

919
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: maybe more. Dylan Fagan is in the booth. He is

920
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: always dressed up, always cheering us on, and always ready

921
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 1: to hit record and then mix the show after he

922
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: does a great job. I also want to shout out

923
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: the executive producers from iHeart my good pals Katrina and

924
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: Norvel and Ali Perry. We have social media support from

925
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 1: Calypso rallis if you like our videos, that is all

926
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: Calypso's Handiwork. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit

927
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or tune in wherever you

928
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. That's it from us here

929
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 1: at Part Time Genius. Thank you so much for listening.