1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom Never Told You? 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: From housetop works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: I'm Kristen and I'm Molly. Molly. May I tell you 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: a little story and why I think we would all 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: love that, Kristin, But I'm going to tell you a 7 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: story of a cocktail. And it's a cocktail that's most 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: stereotypically female cocktail that one can order at the bar, 9 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: and I sometimes avoid ordering at the bar for that 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: very reason. Molly, do you know what I'm talking about? 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: I have a guess. I have a guest. I'm gonna 12 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: go Cosmo. The Cosmopolitan. Yes, yeah, the Cosmo. I think 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: we could all agree. Thanks to Carrie Bradshaw and her 14 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: gang Um is probably the most, you know, quintessential female 15 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: alcoholic drink. I'm just gonna say it, girly drink. It's 16 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: a girly drink. If you know, whether you agree with 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: it or not, you'll see a guy order it and 18 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: you'll be like, oh, barely drink yeah, Or if you're 19 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: like a woman, you order a Cosmo, It's like what 20 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: a girl, Where are your Manola Blonde? So anyway, Molly 21 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: and I tracked down, uh the history of the Cosmo, 22 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: which was apparently better known that I thought it was. 23 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: But I guess I just haven't been following my cocktail 24 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: news over the past decade. But the Cosmo was in 25 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: fact invented by a man surprised to like high heels. 26 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 1: About that, um, it was invented by a New York 27 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: bartender named Toby Guccini. Well he didn't really invent it 28 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: so much as give it its modern form or reinvent it, apparently, 29 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: according to this article we found, he gets pretty pretty 30 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: SnO e when people say he invented it. Yeah, because 31 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: well let me let me just tell let me let 32 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: me tell the story. I'm sorry, I mean food my story. 33 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: I'm kidding. So Toby was working at this bar in 34 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: New York in the late eighties and he befriended a 35 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: co worker named Melissa, who he called Mesa. She was 36 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: she was pretty sweet, she loved guitars. She even played 37 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: an all all girl rock band, you know. And uh 38 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: so Mesa and Toby would hang out at the bar 39 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: and they would get drunk together and make up fancy 40 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: new drinks together, and one day Mesa made this drink 41 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: that she had while in San Francisco at this place 42 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: called Life Cafe, and the drink was called a Cosmopolitan, 43 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: and it was made with vodka, roses lime juice, and grenadine, 44 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: so it was, you know, like bright red. It was 45 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: in a martini glass, and according to Toby, it tasted awful. 46 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: So Toby and Mesa were like, hey, you know what, 47 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: this drink looks pretty sweet, but tastes pretty bad. And 48 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: so they reinvented it by substituting fresh lime juice for 49 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: the roses lime juice, and then they use contro to 50 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: soften the citric bite, as Toby recounts, and then he 51 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: added a little bit of cranberry juice to give it 52 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: that little pink blush. And they shook extra long and 53 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: hard to make it all frothy, and added a lemon 54 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: twist for color and flourish, and hence the Cosmopolitan as 55 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: we know it was born. Well, you left out one 56 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: key ingredient, what the absolute vodka? Oh yeah, Molly, do 57 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: tell well, I mean that was just sort of the 58 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: alcohol he he had substituted to give it a little 59 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: bit more taste, and I was just a little worried 60 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: when you're going to hand me such a low alcoholic 61 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: cosmo and this story you're telling ye, that's more. It 62 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: might would have been the virgin cost Yeah, so that 63 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: so of course, yeah, they had the absolute vodka and 64 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: that's the cosmo. But pretty soon, you know, Toby and 65 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: Masa's new concoction became this huge hit at the bar, 66 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: and he got in a in a very New York 67 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: kind of way, these these bartenders got really annoyed because 68 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know, it went from this 69 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: kind of in crowd thing to all of a sudden, 70 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: everybody and their sister wanting a cosmo. And Toby's all like, man, 71 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: I don't even know if I've ever finished a cosmo, 72 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: and I don't even like to admit that I invented 73 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: the cosmo because it just became this kind of burden. Yeah, 74 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: he had to shake up so many and all it 75 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: was supposed to be was like this private end joke 76 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: between him and his friend. And next thing, you know, 77 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I think this story you've just told us 78 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: to make a perfect children's book about being careful what 79 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: you wish for, because you might just become a giant success. 80 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: That seems to be the model the moral of a 81 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: lot of children's stories. It's true. Well, Molly, I think 82 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: we've got an even better story to tell. That might 83 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: not make a very compelling children's book. However, it's pretty 84 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: fascinating the story of women in bartending, because the thing 85 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: about it is, you know, Toby and Mason were behind 86 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: the bar. You know, it's pretty egalitarian worksplace that sounded 87 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: like he made a drink, she made a drink. They 88 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: shared ideas and together they created this insanely popular cocktail. 89 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: But you know what, it took a long time for 90 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: women to get behind the bar. That's true, or on 91 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: top of it, as some female bar tender skip. Yeah, unfortunately. 92 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: So let's go back in time, as we like to 93 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: do sometimes on stuff Mom never told you to, the 94 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: way life was way back before. How far and back 95 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: you're going? I want to go as far back and 96 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: time as bottle. How don't we just set off like 97 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: the late Okay, all right, I mean I know we've 98 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: gone back further in time than the interests of our 99 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: time and our listeners times. Yes, let's start with the 100 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: lady eighteen hundreds when I think that we would we 101 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: would normally find the woman would normally find working at 102 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: a bar, we would call a barmaid. Yes, and you 103 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: have the kind of that stereotypical picture I guess maybe 104 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: handed down from German barmaids, like German beer gardens, rosy cheeked, large, busted. 105 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: For some reason, I'm thinking of long yellow braids. But 106 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: it's that the st poly girl. Yes, yeah, so we're 107 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: gonna leave. We're gonna leave your ape out of it. 108 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: We'll stay in the US. Goodbye st Poly girl. Because 109 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: at the end of the eighteen hundreds, there was this 110 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: big crackdown on women in bars, in any establishment that 111 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: served alcohol because at the time, as it would happen 112 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: again through history, a love of alcohol and uh that 113 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: would that would not be the most feminine womanly thing 114 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,119 Speaker 1: a person could do. And they were really concerned about 115 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: the the moral upkeep of those women. They didn't want 116 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: them in any place that served alcohol. So they couldn't 117 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: even be in sweep on the floor, which was hard 118 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: because these taverns were often attached to lodging and ends, 119 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: and that was a very popular thing for women to 120 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: make a living in. Right and and at this time 121 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: bars were exclusively patronized by men. It wouldn't be until 122 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: we have prohibition in the rise of speakeasies where everybody 123 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: kind of had to sneak around to get get a 124 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: drink that you finally had become a little more socially 125 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: acceptable for men and women to uh to imbibe together. 126 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,239 Speaker 1: So we found this article in the Wall Street Journal 127 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: by Eric Felton, and he notes that in eight there 128 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: was sort of a rudimentary census taken um and compared 129 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: to almost fifty six thousand men who were bartending in 130 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: the US at the time, And that's a that's a 131 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: lot of bartenders for back then, do you think, Um, 132 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: But out of all of those men, you only have 133 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: a documented hundred and forty seven women working as bartenders, 134 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: So it's extremely rare. And I bet for those women 135 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: life was probably not so easy. I bet that they 136 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: had to kind of do it do it in secret 137 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: as well on the download because they were essentially breaking 138 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: the law at the time. Um. But then we have 139 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: World War One come along and women got the chance 140 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: to come in and do some of the bartending. Then 141 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: of course the men came back and one of their 142 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: jobs back and they got them. Back then after World 143 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: War One, we've got prohibition and uh that again was 144 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: a big, massive campaign to pay people who were drinking 145 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: as you know, lucive morals, the same thing they had 146 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: done at the end of the nineteenth century, where it 147 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: was just really frowned upon woman to even be in 148 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: the presence of alcohol. But the key thing business wise 149 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: that happened around this time after prohibition ended was all 150 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: the unions came in, uh and the male bartenders were unionized, 151 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: and the waitresses got the allowance to work in places 152 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: that served alcohol, but they made this key concession that 153 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: they wouldn't serve the alcohol themselves. And it doesn't appear 154 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: that they even wanted to. They just wanted to be 155 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: able to work in places where the alcohol was served 156 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: because that would probably uh end up more money for them, right. 157 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: And around the same time, you have um the unions 158 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: pushing for laws such as maximum our laws and weightlifting 159 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: restrictions that would basically ensure that women would not be 160 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: able to make the cut to be a bartender even 161 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: if they wanted to. But like you said, and this 162 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: information is coming from a book by Barbara Ruskin Patricia 163 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 1: Roofs called Job cues gender cues that really looks at 164 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: history of sex segregation in job industries, and they know that. 165 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: Until nine, the Hotel and Restaurant Employees and Bartenders International Union, 166 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: which was basically like the Bartenders Union in the US, 167 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: in their by laws stated that bartenders work was a 168 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: quote cloister for the male gender. That's how closely they 169 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: protected these positions. They really did not want women behind 170 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: the bar, and they didn't think that they could manage it. 171 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: They were worried that basically women would somehow incite some 172 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: sexual frenzy among their their male patrons as they were drinking, 173 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: and it we just ruined the entire atmosphere of these bars, 174 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: like bartending was supposed to be a man's job. And 175 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: one of the quotes I loved Kristen, I don't think 176 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 1: it's from this specific article, but it was about how 177 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: a bartender's gotta be, you know, the best conversationalists gotta 178 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: know whin to talk when not to talk. And the 179 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: person was just like and and find me a woman 180 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: who's ever known that difference. You know, even when we 181 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: think about women as being so chatty, so nurturing, probably 182 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: the exact kind of ear you want when you settle 183 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: up to a bar, even that was just twisted around 184 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: on them so that they cannot be that that friend 185 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: at the bar. Now in World War two rolls around. 186 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: An interesting thing happens because a lot of times when 187 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: we look at women's history, World War two is sort 188 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: of the time when everything bust wide open for the 189 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: first time women can take these jobs that were normally 190 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: reserved for men while they're off fighting, and it starts 191 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: to kind of build up a little bit and you know, 192 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 1: into second way feminism. However, it doesn't exactly happen with 193 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: bartending because, yes, women, especially the ones who were unionized, 194 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: those waitresses who are in the bartenders Union, were allowed 195 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 1: to go in and take the men's jobs. But when 196 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 1: the soldiers came back, and with the g I Bill especially, 197 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: they and and with the backing of the union, they 198 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: basically kicked the women out from behind the bar gave 199 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: the guys their jobs back. And not only that, but 200 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: between nineteen forty eight and nineteen sixty almost half of 201 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 1: the states had enacted laws by that point specifically restricting 202 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: women from serving alcohol. Yeah, the only reason they let 203 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 1: them serve during the war was that they wouldn't have 204 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: to give the spot to someone who was non union. 205 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: Now we've got to go to nine Kristen, because that's 206 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: a pretty key date in the history of female bartenders. 207 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: That's when the U. S. Supreme Court heard the case 208 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: of Gossart versus Cleary. Now, at the time, as you said, 209 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: there were a lot of laws on the books. One 210 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: of them was that women could only work in bars 211 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: if they were the wife or daughter of the bar owner. 212 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: And the women in this case suited saying that, you know, 213 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: under equal protection, I should get to work and own 214 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: this bar as well, and they were shot down by 215 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: the by the Supreme Court. There are some choice quotes 216 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: from one Justice Frank Furter, who, um, you know, basically 217 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: found that women, you know, didn't really have much of 218 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: a right in this And even though he knew that 219 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: this was, you know, being fought by the union so 220 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: that they could retain all their business, he kind of 221 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: was cheeking, was like, there's no evidence that, uh, this 222 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: is just a union thing to keep the men in business. 223 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: It was, you know, it's it's kind of funny to read, uh, 224 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: some of the quotes from this this case. Yeah, he 225 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: took it sort of as a as a joke, like 226 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: how why would why would they even try to challenge this? 227 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: I mean, he says, quote, Michigan could, beyond question forbid 228 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: all women from working behind the bar. This is so 229 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: despite the vast changes in the social and legal position 230 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 1: of women. He doesn't even care. He's like, no, no, 231 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: I don't think so, ladies, this is not go home. Now, 232 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, we still have all those laws in place. 233 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: But that's when we have Title seven, the old Civil 234 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: Rights Act. Now, Kristen, you've got to tell me how 235 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,839 Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Act affects these female bartenders. All right, moll, 236 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: I'm about to blow of minds because when I read this, 237 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: my mind was blown. And this also comes from Reskin 238 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: and Russ's Job Cues Gender Cues, and they concluded that quote, 239 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: the most dramatic effect of Title seven on women's access 240 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: to male jobs occurred in bartending. Bartending. Yeah, you know, 241 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: a lot of times when we talk about equal rights 242 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: in the workplace and you know, women breaking through the 243 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 1: glass ceiling. A lot of times we like to talk 244 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: about CEOs of fortune five hundred companies and sort of 245 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: that higher level corporate stuff. But the thing is, you know, 246 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: we need to pay attention to these service industry jobs 247 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: because I mean, did you did you realize that with bartending? 248 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 1: Did you ever think of bartending as you know, the 249 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: field in which women made the most dramatic progress. I 250 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: did not. And you know, by the end of the eighties, 251 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: just twenty five years or so after that Act passes, 252 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: bartending jobs are split fifty fifty between men and women. 253 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: And it's hard to think of another job where the 254 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: split is so even. Well, actually today um as of 255 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: two thousand four, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics, women 256 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 1: actually hold more bartending jobs in the US and men. Now, 257 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: the thing about service industry is, of course it appeals 258 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: to more women than men because typically women need more 259 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: flexible hours, they need the more part time options. UM 260 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: like that, because of as we've talked about many times 261 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: on here, women have more responsibilities such as motherhood and 262 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: caretaking and things like that. UM So being able to 263 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: work in in the service industry is pretty important for women. 264 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: But even though Title seven passed in nineteen sixty four, 265 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: up until nineteen seventy one, we still have a law 266 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: in California preventing women from being able to pour liquor right. 267 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: And actually there's a case in California that involved a 268 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: topless bar, and that's when sort of the floodgates opened 269 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: when the Supreme Court struck down the the clause that 270 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: while you were talking about in terms of a topless bar, 271 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: which I think provides us a really nice segue, Kristen. Um, 272 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: you know, we just sort of told that what I 273 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: think is a pretty uplifting story of women making equal 274 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: strides into a profession. But then again, you know, some 275 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: of them are bar tending in topless bars and have 276 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: to somehow, let's just say, look sexy for their role. 277 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I was in a bar last week. All 278 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: the bartenders are female. All of them were wearing very 279 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: scanty halter tops. So I think that even though women 280 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: have made great strides in this particular career path, I'm 281 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: thinking that one of the reasons we don't think of 282 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: them in terms of you know, you know, great achievements 283 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: in women's histories because so many of them become overly feminine, 284 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: perhaps overly sexualized, in order to do their jobs. Yeah, 285 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: sort of the two steps forward, one step back. Like 286 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: one point that um, some of our research made was 287 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: that in the eighties, one of the reasons why uh 288 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: women bartending really started to take off was because the 289 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: holiday In hotel chain, for instance, pretty quickly discovered that 290 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: if they put an attractive woman behind the bar, hey, 291 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: what do you know, all of a sudden bar revenues 292 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: pick up. And you found one paper that could consider 293 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: the case of one Darlene just Person who worked at 294 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: Harris Casino as a bartender, and you know, she had 295 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: worked her way up to become a bartender. In this 296 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: paper discussed the fact that between you know, a bartender 297 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: and a casino and a cocktail waitress in a casino, 298 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: there's this huge hierarchy. You know, one means one thing 299 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: in terms of knowledge and experience, and and one means 300 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: another thing. And so Harris came in and said, all 301 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: our female employees, be them cocktail waitresses or bartenders, are 302 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: going to have this very certain look. And the look 303 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: was a lot of makeup. And this really infuriated just 304 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: Person because she was like, I worked so hard to 305 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: be equal with guys, and now they're going to paint 306 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: my face and put me on par with cocktail waitresses. 307 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: And I am sure her experience is not unique. Perhaps 308 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: the you know way she fought back is unique. But 309 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, I think that when you think of a 310 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: female bartender, you do think of that very heavily made up, 311 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: uh scanty top sort of sort of appearance. And I 312 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: think it's worth noting too that this casino in question, 313 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: not surprisingly is in Reno, where kind of that idea 314 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: of the show girl the cocktail waitress over sexualized bartender 315 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,479 Speaker 1: is pretty much par for the course there. But the 316 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: the the women who wrote this paper for the Duke 317 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: Journal of Gender Law and Policy made a really interesting 318 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: point that in a sense, the female bartenders faces were 319 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: co modified and sold to customers as part of the 320 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: Hairs branded service exchange. And I mean that's you know, 321 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: that's that's not very good cocktail talk, you know, the 322 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: modification of of women's faces. But there is a point, 323 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, we were talking about this before 324 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: we started recording the podcast, sort of feeling like, you know, 325 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: are we are we bad feminists or bad women in 326 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: our sister and if we kind of do look down 327 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: a little bit on women bartenders who are wearing maybe 328 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: lower cut dresses or lower cut shirts and and kind 329 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: of sexing themselves up to get more tips um or 330 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: is it just part of the game. I mean, are 331 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: they just gaming the system? Well, that takes us really 332 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: nicely to this paper by Julia Cusie Maku and Laura 333 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: Treader And I'm sure I butchered that first name, but 334 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: it was an interview with two separate bartenders about this 335 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: very subject about how they felt in working in what 336 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's pretty pretty fair to say, it's 337 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: the highly sexualized environment. People go to bars to meet 338 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: other people, their meat market, and you know, like you said, 339 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: it's part of the game that you know, if you 340 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: flirt a little, do you get a bigger tip? You know, 341 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: if you wear one top and on another, do you 342 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: get a bigger tip? And they're asking these women how 343 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: they felt about it. And one themen they interviewed was 344 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: twenty one, just starting out, but she saw herself in 345 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: this field long term. And one woman owned the bar 346 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: and have been in it for for several years, was 347 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: twenty nine. And both of them said, you know, the 348 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 1: fact that you're putting yourself on display, that you are 349 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: putting up with, you know, what would be in any 350 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: other environment sexual harassment doesn't bother them. But they did 351 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: point out that they were not able to maintain long 352 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 1: term relationships, probably because of the hours, but the authors 353 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: of the paper hinted at the fact that it might 354 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: be because they do have such a sexualized profession that 355 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: values that cheap contact, uh and that very flashy appearance. 356 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: But here's the thing, though, I mean, individual cases are 357 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: going to change. Obviously, if you're working at the local 358 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: dive bar, you're not gonna be making as much as 359 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: a high end bar in say New York. But overall, um, 360 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: women are not getting back what they are putting out, 361 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: if you will, because even though we've made all these 362 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: straw and even though there are more women bartending in 363 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: the US and there are men, there is still almost 364 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: the exact same wage gap between women and men bartenders 365 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: as there is across the board in the US. As 366 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: of two thousand four, at least, go into Bure of 367 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: Labor Statistics, women bartenders made eighty cents for every dollar 368 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: that mail bartenders made. Now, that might have to do 369 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: with the fact that there are more maybe bar own 370 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: mail bar owners or bar managers than there are females. 371 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: So I don't know, maybe that has maybe that has 372 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: something to do with it. But for some reason, when 373 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: I read that it just infuriated me because it's like, Okay, 374 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: all right, I get the wage gap on the corporate 375 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: level because women a don't do a good enough job 376 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: of negotiating their salaries from the get go, and be 377 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: businesses will will pay men more, just flat out. But 378 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: this is a service industry and we have influence over this. 379 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: We're tipping these people. How is this happening, Molly? Can 380 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: we You know, well, I think that we probably touched 381 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: on that very sense of discomfort that maybe a woman 382 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: has going into a bar and if she's served by 383 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: someone who is wearing a low cut top. I mean, 384 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: you would think that wearing a low cut top would 385 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: get you a bigger tip from someone who's attracted to 386 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But maybe if you're someone like 387 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: us who's kind of grappling with is it more powerful too, 388 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: uh have this job that's very equal with males, or 389 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: is it more powerful to have all your clothes on? 390 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe maybe we have that sort of feminist 391 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: subconscious acting. I mean, I'm not saying I'm badly tipping 392 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: people who are wearing low cut shirts, but I wonder 393 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: if that's part of the issue. It is just your 394 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: level of comfort with a female bartender, male or female. Yeah, 395 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: you know, I think that they are kind of gaming 396 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 1: the system. They are having to sort of do what 397 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: they want to do. I mean, like, is it probably 398 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: fun to have to wear a hall to top all 399 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: night and you know, for drinks for tips? No, I'm 400 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 1: sure it's very it's very demanding work, and it's very 401 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: physically demanding work, and not to mention that you have 402 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,239 Speaker 1: to deal with drug people for eight hours. But uh, 403 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,239 Speaker 1: I think that maybe maybe our whole takeaway from all 404 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: this is that maybe it's time, especially as women, for 405 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: us to look at women bartenders in a different light. Well, 406 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: and I think it's really funny that you said that 407 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: it might not be fun or that it might be 408 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: really demanding, because I just want to throw out one 409 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: thing here at the end, and that's the bar Coyote Ugly. Oh, 410 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: Coyote Ugly. Yes, from the film of the same name 411 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: is based on this bar, and the movie kind of 412 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: loosely based on this article for g Q written by 413 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Gilbert, who went on tor I Eat, Pray, Love, 414 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,959 Speaker 1: she spent a little time bartending in Coyote Ugly and 415 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: she I was reading the article this morning and she 416 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: makes wearing no clothes and dancing on bars and doing 417 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: shots with your customers sound really empowering. I could see that, 418 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, if you are in charge of all of that. Uh, 419 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,479 Speaker 1: if you're in charge of a room, how could you 420 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: how could you have any more power you're in charge 421 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: of a room. Well, it's interesting only that you bring 422 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: up this this issue of kind of empowerment and authority, 423 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: because there was a paper that we ran across by 424 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: Richard of Saho called Women Bartenders in the Construction of Boundaries, 425 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: where he really makes the point that, um, yeah, I mean, 426 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, bartenders in a way are you know, your 427 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: your confidence. And they're also sort of sexual objects to 428 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: some degree, and they are also entertainers, therapists, mothers, et cetera. 429 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: But by and large, a really good bartender, male or female. 430 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: But since we're talking about women, a really good woman 431 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: bartender has a ton of authority over a room full 432 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: of men and women. She basically has to sort of, 433 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,199 Speaker 1: you know, open herself up enough to be a friend, 434 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: but never cross that boundary line to where she loses 435 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: any type of authority, because you know, yeah, things can 436 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: get kind of wild when you have a people will 437 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: drinking whiskey for five hours? Is that what you normally 438 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 1: do when you go to a bar, drink whisky for 439 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 1: five hours straight? Whiskey for five hours? Come join me, Babel. Well, 440 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: the next time you're in a bar, hopefully we've given 441 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: you some some food for thought, because after all this 442 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: drink and you better get some food in you. Yeah, 443 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: let's not forget it was a hard won battle. Restee 444 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: it behind the bar. Yeah, it's not the boardroom. Yes, 445 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: we're talking about the bar. Okay, Well, everyone wants to 446 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: be in a boardroom. So that's why we got to 447 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: open it up to our listeners and see what they 448 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: think about it. Exactly, Mille. So let's do that. Let's 449 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: hear from you guys. Mom Stuff at how stuff works 450 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: dot com is our email. Send us your thoughts and Molly, 451 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: I think that this would be a great time to 452 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: read some emails. Okay, first step, I have an email 453 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: from Monica. This is about the children's literature podcast and 454 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: it's kind of a reprimand Kristen. She writes, you both 455 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: professed to have loved Dermona Quimby, but why don't you 456 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: know the character's names? Every time you said Henry Higgins. 457 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: I cringed, it's Henry Huggins. I think that was in 458 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: My Fair Lady moment, Henry Higgins. That's right, the professor 459 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 1: of My Fairly. I also love My Fair Lady. She writes, 460 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: I am very particular about my children childhood books, and 461 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: as you're elder by not that many years, I feel 462 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: the need to politely scold you. Anyway, I love the podcast, 463 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: so thank you Monica for forgiving that oversight from us. 464 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: All right, well, I've got an email here from Drew, 465 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: and it is about driving. He said, I've been a 466 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: gear gearhead since long before I could drive. Consequently, I 467 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: read a lot of driver related articles. I have come 468 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: to believe that almost all quote good driving studies try 469 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: to answer the wrong question. When people say that one 470 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: person is a better driver than another, they don't mean 471 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: a safer or more careful driver. Instead, they're thinking of 472 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,479 Speaker 1: someone who is skilled at navigating through traffic, parking in 473 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: tight spots, finding destinations, and who has good situational awareness. 474 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: But all the studies on the subjects seemed to focus 475 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: only on safety and risk. I've never heard anyone called 476 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: a bad driver for wrapping a sports car around a tree. 477 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: A hundred miles per hour. These people are called reckless. 478 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: On the other hand, plenty of people are called bad 479 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: drivers because they can't maneuver into a parking space because 480 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: they're constantly lost. I would love to find a study 481 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: that addresses the idea of good driving rather than safe driving, 482 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: although I suspect the results would be just as vague 483 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: when it comes to comparing the sexes. Thank you drew 484 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: very interesting thoughts. So if you guys have any thoughts 485 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: on anything we talk about or things we don't talk about, 486 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: and that we should give us an email mom Stuff 487 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. You can follow us 488 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: during the week at Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts, and 489 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: on Facebook at steff Man Told You. And you can 490 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 1: read our blog of the same name at how stuff 491 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of 492 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: other topics. Because at how stuff works dot com. Want 493 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: more how stuff works, check out our blogs on the 494 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 1: house stuff works dot com home page. Yes, brought to 495 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camry. It's ready. 496 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: Are you