WEBVTT - The Reunion 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:06.960 Blessed are the meek. That's a great sentiment, but I 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:14.080 like to suggest another one. Blessed are the troublemakers. This 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:18.000 episode is all about people who spoke out and caused trouble, 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.479 the rebels. It's time to organize a Hillsong reunion in 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.720 New York. The plays where so much bad stuff happened 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.640 in Hillsong Church. But Brian Houston and Carl Lentz, you're 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.839 not invited. The people I'm going to meet in New 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:35.960 York played a massive role in my life. They are 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:39.160 the ones who challenge people with power and called out 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.920 a culture of exploitation and abuse. In the past six 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:47.640 episodes of False Prophets, we've investigated Hillsong's money, its treatment 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.720 of staff and volunteers, and its attitude towards LGBTQ people. 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.200 Without these two women I'm about to meet, I might 0:00:55.240 --> 0:01:04.080 have never had the courage to make this series. I 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.440 think Tiff and Jennie might be coming down the hall. 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:13.080 I have like the biggest smile on my face. Oh hello, 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:17.400 Oh my goodness, So Tiff is here, Janie is coming 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:20.840 in wherever you want over there right here? Have you 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.360 met Jennie? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, Okay, I haven't. 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:31.440 Oh man, you made it. You both made it. Yeah. 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:38.400 After leaving Hillsong, they have been by my side. Tiff 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.720 has been by my side since day one of me leaving. 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:46.640 I met her while I was at Hillsong, and I 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.200 noticed something different about her in comparison to other folks there, 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.280 and she has been a catalyst for me to be 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:59.320 able to speak out even more. I label myself as 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:05.280 luck Na neu Rican. My parents are from Brooklyn. I've 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:09.959 daughter of her single mom, oldest technically a five. I 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:18.760 was raised Catholic. I was twenty two twenty three leading 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:20.880 the youth group at my church and the older people 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:23.280 just didn't want anything to do with the youth. And 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.519 I was introduced by two friends that I went to 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:29.320 high school with and they introduced me in the whole song. 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:33.320 And that first day is the date that I have 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.639 tattooed on my collar bone April twenty nine, twenty twelve, 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:42.080 even while we were attending, like I remember like sometimes 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:44.840 looking around and being like what the fuck did I 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:52.760 get myself into. Janice is a whole another story. She's amazing, 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.600 She's so creative, and I found her through Tiffany and 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:01.400 just on social media, see the skits that she would 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.440 put together and the blog post that she would do, 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.000 and to see how she would use her rage and 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:11.960 her creativity in her own way to speak out against Hillsong. 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:22.919 I am Janice. I am a black woman, cat person writer. 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:29.040 I grew up in church and yeah, back in the 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:34.720 early two thousands, my church started using Hillsong music, so 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:41.360 that's how I got introduced to Hillsong. Since leaving Hillsong, 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:45.280 tiff Tiffany Perez has been a part of Do Better Church, 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.480 a group for victims and survivors of church abuse, and 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.160 Janice Legata has been running her own podcast, God is 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.880 Not given another space for victims and survivors of church abuse. 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.400 We've all brought something with us, something from our past. 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.200 So we brought an item. So I'm gonna grab mine, 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.400 and I asked people to bring something that reminds him 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:14.160 of Hillsong. Why don't you open your open mine? So 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:19.240 it is a picture. So yeah, so this is a 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.919 picture of tiff and I after church on a Sunday, 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:28.640 And I actually cropped someone out of it because they 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:33.440 were part of my traumatic experience at Hillsong. I wanted 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.800 to include Tiff obviously just heard. Now I'm a little 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.960 teary eyed for this, Yeah, and I want you to 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.800 keep it. Oh yeah, I brought it for you, Yeah, 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:46.520 because I think that was like a big moment for 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.880 me where I finally met someone who was LATINX doing 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:52.880 more leadership. Yeah. We look very different from that time. 0:04:55.920 --> 0:05:01.440 We're very free now. Yeah. Yeah feel like the genuine 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:06.159 of like the friendship, yeah has always been there. So oh, 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.080 Tip brought something really bitter sweet. It's from the time 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:18.840 when she went to Hillsong College in Australia. Oh, what 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:22.040 is it? So it's my ring. My mom bought that 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:24.960 for me when I graduated from Hillsong College because she 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.160 was actually able to go to Sydney and there was 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.080 a place she always wants it to go, so she 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:32.560 got me that. It's like the only thing that I 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.600 still kind of hold on too, obviously, my tattoo. I 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.000 can't let go of you. Yeah, but I wear it 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:40.400 every day and if I don't have it on, I 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:44.200 feel like naked without it. Yeah. Has the symbol of 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:48.640 that like changed for you? It hasn't, because Hillsong College 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.480 was the only college that I graduated from, So it's 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:56.320 a big moment for me. Even though like the definition 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:58.720 has changed, it was a big deal for me to 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.360 do that. It was something that i'd for me. Ultimately, 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:05.240 I just learned things that I didn't think I would 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.680 from that. Well, yeah, Jannis went to Hillsong College too, 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.480 but years before Teth learning how to do church the 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:17.520 Hillsong Way was a dream for many followers. Janna started 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:19.680 to look for conferences she wanted to go to in 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.839 the US, but when she found out about Hillsong College, 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:25.880 she wanted to go. Whatever the cost. I don't remember 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.839 the exact numbers now, so this was back in two 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:33.040 thousand and five. It was expensive, like I did have 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:36.960 to save, but it wasn't It wasn't a crazy amount 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:41.120 like it was. It was doable. So many Biblical stories 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:46.000 of people just being called out of their element and 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.280 into places they've never been and doing things they've never 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:54.240 done so attract and what she learned there wasn't necessarily 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.159 what she was expecting to learn. You're learning Hillsong culture, 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.920 you're learning the Hillsong way of doing things, but you're 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:04.280 not particularly picking up any kind of actual skills. We 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.320 used to laugh at the graduation ceremonies where they would 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:11.120 trot out, you know, like, oh, here's this great violin player. 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:14.120 You know, here's our little string section or whatever, and 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:16.680 these are skills these people came here with. Like nobody 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.880 learned how to play the violin at Hillsong, Like it 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:23.360 wasn't until my third year, I think, when they started 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:28.440 offering like basic music theory classes. So it was just 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:32.640 very here's what the Bible says about worship, but here's 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.679 actually what Hillsong says about what the Bible says about worship. 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:43.760 No actual qualifications or transferable skills. I mean maybe I did, 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.800 for a time work as part of the cleaning crew, 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:53.200 so I was on paid staff as a janitor basically, 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:59.200 So if that's a skill I learned how to, I 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:03.400 no longer remember exactly how to make Brian Houston's coffee. 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.960 So he likes his coffee like it's like random, like 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.720 three long shots of coffee, but like super hot, which 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:15.440 means that the grinds are burnt essentially. Yeah, And majority 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.440 of the time you're like, this is the pastor's coffee, 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.600 and ninety five percent of the time they didn't drink it. 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:23.800 So that was part of my time in Australia. I've 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.160 learned how to make the pastor's coffee, and I was 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.280 super intimidated to do it, so I had my team 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:31.240 do it. But now I'm just like, I'll make anyone 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.120 a coffee. Yeah, it's not a big deal. Anything is 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:38.480 better than burnt being coffee. Oh yeah, extra hot. The 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:40.920 assistants are like and then you couldn't double cup it, 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.199 so you just had to burn your fucking hand like 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:49.839 holding the cup. If you're interested in learning more about 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:53.800 burnt being coffee and other stuff, the price tag today 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:58.080 for an undergraduate bachelor's in ministry at Hillsong College, Australia 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:02.520 is just over twelve thousand US dollars a year for 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:07.280 overseas students. The course last three years. But there's a 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:12.920 college in California formerly in Arizona as well. But you 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:15.880 won't get to make burntbreing coffee for Brian Houston because 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:24.800 a big eagle got fired. As time progressed, I realized 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.080 that I wasn't the only one who had been speaking out. 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.720 There've been people speaking out for years, more than thirty years. 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.800 I was now joining the rebellion, some people may say, 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.079 and honestly it's an honor to call myself part of 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.280 the rebellion. It's an honor to be called a heretic. 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.959 Jesus was called a heretic, So for me to be 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.640 called a heretic, to be called someone who's speaking out, 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.520 to be called someone who's churning tables or flipping tables, 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.679 I'm okay with that. Speaking out has been a part 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:01.000 of my healing journey, and even that words joe for me. 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:06.120 But I'm really grateful that I've been able to find 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.880 that part of me to speak out. Being a part 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.079 of the Do Better Church team has helped me a lot. 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.440 A good friend of mine now it was like, whoever 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:16.480 wants to be a part of this thing, Like we 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.400 don't know what it's going to look like, but we 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:26.120 want to hear people's stories. And Folks's courage gave me 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:30.640 my own. So that's what started it. It was realizing 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.280 I wasn't alone. Yeah, and it was during the height 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.040 of the pandemic too, so we were all home, ye, 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:42.880 like just stewing and all of these things, and it 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:47.040 was just like I remember just being like fuck this, Yeah, 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.240 I need to get this out. Yeah. Sure, there's like 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.480 I'm hoping that someone hears me and feels comfortable enough 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.040 to say their story or be able to acknowledge what 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.079 they've gone through themselves. But I'm doing it for me 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:03.839 and I have been. There was so much that I 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:09.400 didn't talk about for years and with anyone, so just 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:13.280 the pent up, like I need to let this out. 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:20.080 And thankfully Instagram was and has been a tool that's 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:24.360 been very useful for me to be able to speak out. 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:26.840 After you had left, I would check in to see 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.520 how you were doing. Yeah. But when I left, I 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:33.480 texted you and I said, Tiff, I left Hill Song, 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:36.280 I don't know what to do. And then we started 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.040 talking and I shared my experience and we were like 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.760 there for each other over text yeah, and then over 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.679 the phone. And then you reach out and told me 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.240 about Do Better Church. Yeah, and I was like okay, 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.559 like sure, I'll write it out, and we started like 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:52.960 sharing more and writing out. I think Do Better Church 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.440 is like a big connection probably for the three of us. 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.400 I remember I wrote like almost like three to five pages, 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.920 like it was long, and I submitted it and I 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:03.400 was like, I don't know who's going to read this, 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:05.319 and if it's going to be shared, I don't care 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.800 but at least I did it, and from there it 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:10.000 was like a catalyst. And then things started happening on 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:14.040 social media and I started like posting war and calling 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:18.560 pastors out. And that's how like like we were connected, 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:20.920 Like you were a big part for me to start 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.839 sharing because you told me about do better church. So 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.080 to hear you say that was also a big part 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.599 for you, and that I was also in genis is 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:30.600 also a part for you to start sharing your story. 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:38.520 Like that's that's deep. We finally found safety. Yeah, and 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:46.240 it was through the internet. Yeah, when speaking out rage 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:50.439 is actually really important because it helps give you some 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:54.960 courage to say the things that you've been wanting to say. 0:12:55.480 --> 0:13:00.760 Oftentimes you tend to protect people or you were taught 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.200 to protect your pastor or your leader growing up in church. 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:12.480 Speaking out comes with consequences. But when it came to Hillsong, 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:17.240 I realized that it was a whole nother level because 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:21.199 Hillsong isn't a whole other level economically, and they have 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:25.199 more power socially. There are millions of people who follow 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:30.280 the church on social media and on different platforms, so 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:34.040 the backlash was at a different level. And that's what 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:38.360 I wasn't prepared for when I first started speaking out, 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.760 and I started receiving backlash from different leaders from the church, 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:46.840 from different trolls. I ended up having to admit myself 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.000 into the hospital because of all the backlash that I received. 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:56.880 Everyone wanted to know about Hillsong. You start learning more 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:00.360 about like the media and about reporter is and what 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.640 they're looking for. Then you start getting labeled by people 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:08.840 within the church. Yes, as like the gossipers and the naysayers. 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:13.719 If you're not in line with Hillsong, then you're automatically 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:18.079 a troublemaker. You're a God hater, you're a liar, you're 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.320 a gossiper. And I'm like, Okay, you want to continue 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.880 throwing labels out, sure, but can we talk about yours too, 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.000 and what you've been complicit with and what you're allowing 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:34.040 And so if I'm going to be a troublemaker, then 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:42.640 good trouble right. Yeah, I didn't set out to be 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:46.440 a troublemaker, and I shouldn't be right, Like, if you 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.680 guys were doing the right thing. There's so much going 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:51.840 on in the world. It's just so weird that we're 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.840 public enemy number one, Like, where are your biggest concern. Yeah, 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:59.160 not the way people's rights are being stripped or not, 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:04.400 you know, the abuse that's happening. Yeah, none of that, 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:06.960 Like you're not looking within its people who are telling 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.520 it's the people who were sorry who were speaking about 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.720 like the people who are trying to stop trouble. Yeah, 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:16.720 are the trouble troublemakers. It's just so backwards, like if 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:20.520 you're not us, then you're against us. It's like I 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.160 need to say something for myself and if you don't 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.040 like it, then maybe you should have acted better. He've 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.640 better treated people better. But if you're still not doing it, 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:32.320 then I'm going to question it and I'm going to 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.000 continue to call you out and I'm going to continue 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.720 get blocked. I don't care you got blocks. I've been 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:41.640 blocked by Brian Howson on Twitter and I'm not even 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.960 on Twitter like that you welcome to the club and 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.320 I've been blocked. I was blocked because I tweeted something 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:52.200 you told me to tweet. I was like, yeah, do 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:57.680 that write it? Okay? The block blocked? Have you been blocked? 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.160 Are you? Are you part of the club? No, what 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.040 I can either in or out. I can't get blocked 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:11.840 by Brian Man. I guess I'm in. It got really scary. 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.880 I didn't know what to do. I was being targeted 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:21.760 and stalked on social media by different leaders, constantly getting messages, 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.280 and it was just a little bit too overwhelming for me. 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:38.160 I had to step away for my own safety. Whenever 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.240 stories are shared in the media, or whenever we share 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:47.400 in different like documentaries or articles, you don't hear often 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.120 people talk about racism and it's so frustrating because it's 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.720 there and it's so visible, but no one has the 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.520 courage or I don't even know what it is to 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.760 just step into that and talk about because it's real, 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.040 it's there and it happens. And there's like two women 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.000 of color and an afab of color, like that's big. Yeah. 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:13.800 For me, there was this glass ceiling constantly. As a Latina, 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:21.199 there's hardly any representation of anything but white Australian. Right 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.200 for me to be a woman of color, I'm already 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:28.320 a woman and then a woman of color was just like, 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:32.159 all right, well, you can help with hospitality things and 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:35.359 you can help with taking care of people, but to 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:39.240 see yourself on a stage, yeah, that wasn't going to happen. 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:43.480 But I'm there because they needed the representation for the 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:48.240 brochures and for look at what we do on social media. 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.800 They're never going to talk about the ugly. I was 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.960 called exotic while I was at holl Song College because 0:17:55.000 --> 0:18:01.000 I'm Puto Rican and I'm like fam no, like, yes 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.119 i am, but no, not to you, Like that's not 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.280 available to you. The people who have spoken out about 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:12.080 the racism, they've received attacks and they've received death threats. 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.879 It goes back to this troublemaker thing. You're labeled as 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.600 a troublemaker, but now people are going to threaten you. Yeah, 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.520 it happens in Christian spaces all the time. Oh yeah, 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:27.040 a thousand percent. What about for you, Jennie. I mean 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:33.480 it's kind of Hillsong is a colonial company, right, it 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:37.440 goes where it goes as a colonizer. I mean, it's 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:39.200 just wild to think about it now. But like we 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:41.840 just accepted that and through the doors opening. Yeah. Yeah, 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:44.800 white men from way over there come over here and 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:47.440 tell us how to do church. Yeah. And so I 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:51.399 mean it was always always there, blatantly right on the surface, 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.200 but we didn't see and we're just having very different 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:59.400 conversations now than we were ten years ago. But when 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:02.080 we did start having those conversations, I think people can 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.639 see it, but people don't want to talk about it 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.240 because then we have to get into conversations about intentions 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:12.879 versus you know, impact, and people suddenly want to become 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.920 very like factual and they want you to prove things 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.040 and like show it to me on paper. Yeah, and 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:23.240 it's like you can't. And people don't believe people of color, 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.160 they don't believe women, they don't believe women of color. 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.280 Can they immediately turn everything back on you? Right? And 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:34.760 so for me to say, I mean, I'm ghostwriting Josh 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:39.040 Kayne's sermons, I'm writing the connect group studies you guys 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:44.119 are using across the church. But he's qualified to be 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.720 a preacher, but I'm not. But I can never say 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:50.320 that because then it becomes why do you think you 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.480 should be a preacher? Now? It's about my heart, right 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:55.720 and what I want and what am I in it for? Ye? 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.080 And you know what do you really would you really 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.080 care about? Yeah? So, like much of the work we 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.360 do for them, So before we're even having these conversations, 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:09.240 you've probably done months, if not years, of talking yourself 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.119 down right and being like, no, it's not it's not 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:15.320 about me. And then by the time I'm seeing something, 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.800 it doesn't matter if Carlins doesn't see it. Yeah, and 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.200 he's not going to believe me because you're too close 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.800 to this topic and you have an agenda now, right, 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.600 and so yeah, the conversation goes nowhere, and then you 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:33.440 get caught in that space of well, I have to 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:36.600 be the change I want to see, So now I've 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.040 got to stay here and work, work with him and 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:41.520 work on this and maybe that's that's mine, that's why 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:43.560 i'm because that's also something they get you to do, 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.200 to do their labor. Well, I mean, and then Carl 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.639 even even now, like you'll still see people. Yeah, No, 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:53.880 but he said black lives matter. Carl always loved black people. Carl. Oh, 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:57.320 we appreciate Carl, And I'm like, no, he didn't. He 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:01.000 was doing the least nobody else was saying. It's so 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:04.080 much great. It was just saying saying it and liking 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:07.280 that attention. Yeah, and getting that attention. Yeah, like it 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:11.880 implicates everybody. Look at him, He's saying black lives matter. 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.960 Why are you more grateful? Right? Because we're so devalued. 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:19.919 We should be thankful for any scraps and then honestly 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:22.440 that should hold you for a good long while. Yeah, 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:24.680 like you guys like you just always want more, so 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.679 then it becomes about us again. It's just exhausting. I mean, 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:32.480 it's it's tiring work, and especially when people don't want 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:37.119 to do it. Troublemaking is exhausting, tough work. Not everyone 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:42.920 can do it. So we've been speaking out, and I 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:46.120 know the message that we've had has changed over time. 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:48.640 I know for me, at first it was just don't 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:53.159 abuse people, stop, like do better, but now I'm like, 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:56.960 fuck it, burn it down. What does justice and accountability 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:00.720 look like for you? Tif with a oologies has to 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:06.359 come action steps. There's been weak as apologies. It's always 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:10.440 that I'm sorry, you feel right sorry if you yeah, 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:15.000 if you felt that way. Yeah, it's never this acknowledgement. 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:20.080 There's no holding anyone responsible in a Hillsong world. And 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:24.520 it's globally like if Hillsong could have gone to different 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:29.639 planets in different universes, they would have. Now they're falling 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:33.720 apart because they're dumpster fire. Yeah, but there's no accountability, 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:38.480 like they're reaping what they sowed. It's literally they're crumbling 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:41.880 on their own because of their own actions. Yeah, because 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.760 their foundation wasn't good to begin with, right, and that's 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.000 not going to stand the test of time. Right. Yeah. 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:52.560 The Bible talks about building on sand by by house. 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:59.320 What about for you, Janice? I mean, in a perfect world, 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:05.200 justice and accountability would look like Hillsong being dismantled, all 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:07.520 of their finances being brought to the front, and them 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:12.639 having to repay everybody return tied to return tuition, and 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:17.520 be forced to pay for a people's therapy. I don't 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:20.480 think we're ever going to see justice. It's possible, but 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:24.640 I feel like most of them are just gonna skate away. Yeah. 0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:27.640 None of them have repented. None of them have given 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:31.680 any true apologies, shown any true remorse. So I have 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:38.159 to be satisfied with knowing they're not happy people. That 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:41.000 turmoil that they have, They've earned it, and that's theirs 0:23:41.040 --> 0:23:47.040 to keep. I just want the institution to not exist anymore. Okay, 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:49.920 to at least get out of the United States. You 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:51.880 can do whatever you're going to do in Australia. That's 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:54.159 none of my business, but you need to get out 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:57.920 of here. And you know, when I see them on 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:02.000 the online streets to remind them of who they are. Ye, 0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:05.200 so you're not Yeah, you can move on to another church. 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:09.280 But if I see you, I'm gonna say something. And 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:12.119 I mean true, Jesice, the best justice is just us 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:17.200 living our best lives. Yeah, and we are getting there. 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:22.040 I'm working in public health and LGBTQ rights advocacy. I'm 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:25.040 doing truly meaningful work and I'm being paid for it. 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:29.120 I'm in a relationship. I have family and friends who 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:32.600 love me. And I look at Janice, who've written a 0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:36.119 new musical, who is sharing her creativity with the world 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:39.680 on her terms. And I look at Tiff, who is 0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:44.080 also doing a job she loves, getting properly paid for 0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:50.160 supporting children. I was told that you brought something today, Janice. 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:55.240 Could you share a little bit more about that bearing gifts? 0:24:55.680 --> 0:24:58.360 Sure you come burying gifts. It's not a gift. Oh, 0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:05.800 it's a okay to you? Oh my god? Um yeah, 0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:09.719 just thinking about because we haven't met in person, yeah before, 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:16.440 and we have we have so much history, but I 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:18.479 don't know, it's it's a weird history. It is right, 0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:21.280 like we're tied together and we know so many of 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:23.960 the same people. Yeah, when we come from the same place, 0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:27.520 but we've never been in the same place. Yeah. So 0:25:27.640 --> 0:25:31.879 I just wrote this letter. Okay, I mean it feels 0:25:31.880 --> 0:25:33.680 like I just read the letter. You can go for it. 0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:38.879 Yeah so, no, immy. A Life of Significance. That was 0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:41.960 the tagline, the motto, the slogan emblazoned across the T 0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:45.080 shirts and messenger bags they handed out on registration day 0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:49.000 at Hillsong International Leadership College when I arrived in May 0:25:49.080 --> 0:25:53.040 of two thousand and five. A life of significance Hillsong 0:25:53.160 --> 0:25:55.000 lies about a lot, and it's wrong about a lot. 0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:57.000 And I suspect they were lying about that, but they 0:25:57.040 --> 0:25:59.919 weren't wrong. And I think a lot about the signific 0:26:00.000 --> 0:26:02.680 against I may have had in your story. I lose 0:26:02.800 --> 0:26:05.280 time imagining ways I could have changed, not the outcome, 0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:07.680 because here we are, but the middle, the parts I 0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:10.760 helped set in motion and then missed. But who could 0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:15.040 have known? What percentage of responsibility does my well intentioned 0:26:15.119 --> 0:26:18.240 service hold for the hell you were steered into? And 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:20.439