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Speaker 1: Blessed are the meek. That's a great sentiment, but I

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Speaker 1: like to suggest another one. Blessed are the troublemakers. This

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Speaker 1: episode is all about people who spoke out and caused trouble,

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Speaker 1: the rebels. It's time to organize a Hillsong reunion in

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Speaker 1: New York. The plays where so much bad stuff happened

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Speaker 1: in Hillsong Church. But Brian Houston and Carl Lentz, you're

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Speaker 1: not invited. The people I'm going to meet in New

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Speaker 1: York played a massive role in my life. They are

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Speaker 1: the ones who challenge people with power and called out

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Speaker 1: a culture of exploitation and abuse. In the past six

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Speaker 1: episodes of False Prophets, we've investigated Hillsong's money, its treatment

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Speaker 1: of staff and volunteers, and its attitude towards LGBTQ people.

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Speaker 1: Without these two women I'm about to meet, I might

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Speaker 1: have never had the courage to make this series. I

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Speaker 1: think Tiff and Jennie might be coming down the hall.

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Speaker 1: I have like the biggest smile on my face. Oh hello,

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, So Tiff is here, Janie is coming

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Speaker 1: in wherever you want over there right here? Have you

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Speaker 1: met Jennie? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, Okay, I haven't.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, you made it. You both made it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: After leaving Hillsong, they have been by my side. Tiff

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Speaker 1: has been by my side since day one of me leaving.

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Speaker 1: I met her while I was at Hillsong, and I

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Speaker 1: noticed something different about her in comparison to other folks there,

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Speaker 1: and she has been a catalyst for me to be

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Speaker 1: able to speak out even more. I label myself as

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Speaker 1: luck Na neu Rican. My parents are from Brooklyn. I've

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Speaker 1: daughter of her single mom, oldest technically a five. I

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Speaker 1: was raised Catholic. I was twenty two twenty three leading

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Speaker 1: the youth group at my church and the older people

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Speaker 1: just didn't want anything to do with the youth. And

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Speaker 1: I was introduced by two friends that I went to

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Speaker 1: high school with and they introduced me in the whole song.

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Speaker 1: And that first day is the date that I have

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Speaker 1: tattooed on my collar bone April twenty nine, twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: even while we were attending, like I remember like sometimes

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Speaker 1: looking around and being like what the fuck did I

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Speaker 1: get myself into. Janice is a whole another story. She's amazing,

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Speaker 1: She's so creative, and I found her through Tiffany and

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Speaker 1: just on social media, see the skits that she would

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Speaker 1: put together and the blog post that she would do,

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Speaker 1: and to see how she would use her rage and

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Speaker 1: her creativity in her own way to speak out against Hillsong.

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Speaker 1: I am Janice. I am a black woman, cat person writer.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in church and yeah, back in the

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Speaker 1: early two thousands, my church started using Hillsong music, so

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Speaker 1: that's how I got introduced to Hillsong. Since leaving Hillsong,

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Speaker 1: tiff Tiffany Perez has been a part of Do Better Church,

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Speaker 1: a group for victims and survivors of church abuse, and

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Speaker 1: Janice Legata has been running her own podcast, God is

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Speaker 1: Not given another space for victims and survivors of church abuse.

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Speaker 1: We've all brought something with us, something from our past.

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Speaker 1: So we brought an item. So I'm gonna grab mine,

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Speaker 1: and I asked people to bring something that reminds him

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Speaker 1: of Hillsong. Why don't you open your open mine? So

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Speaker 1: it is a picture. So yeah, so this is a

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Speaker 1: picture of tiff and I after church on a Sunday,

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Speaker 1: And I actually cropped someone out of it because they

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Speaker 1: were part of my traumatic experience at Hillsong. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to include Tiff obviously just heard. Now I'm a little

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Speaker 1: teary eyed for this, Yeah, and I want you to

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Speaker 1: keep it. Oh yeah, I brought it for you, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I think that was like a big moment for

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Speaker 1: me where I finally met someone who was LATINX doing

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Speaker 1: more leadership. Yeah. We look very different from that time.

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Speaker 1: We're very free now. Yeah. Yeah feel like the genuine

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Speaker 1: of like the friendship, yeah has always been there. So oh,

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Speaker 1: Tip brought something really bitter sweet. It's from the time

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Speaker 1: when she went to Hillsong College in Australia. Oh, what

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Speaker 1: is it? So it's my ring. My mom bought that

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Speaker 1: for me when I graduated from Hillsong College because she

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Speaker 1: was actually able to go to Sydney and there was

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Speaker 1: a place she always wants it to go, so she

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Speaker 1: got me that. It's like the only thing that I

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Speaker 1: still kind of hold on too, obviously, my tattoo. I

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Speaker 1: can't let go of you. Yeah, but I wear it

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Speaker 1: every day and if I don't have it on, I

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Speaker 1: feel like naked without it. Yeah. Has the symbol of

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Speaker 1: that like changed for you? It hasn't, because Hillsong College

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Speaker 1: was the only college that I graduated from, So it's

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Speaker 1: a big moment for me. Even though like the definition

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Speaker 1: has changed, it was a big deal for me to

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Speaker 1: do that. It was something that i'd for me. Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: I just learned things that I didn't think I would

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Speaker 1: from that. Well, yeah, Jannis went to Hillsong College too,

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Speaker 1: but years before Teth learning how to do church the

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Speaker 1: Hillsong Way was a dream for many followers. Janna started

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Speaker 1: to look for conferences she wanted to go to in

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Speaker 1: the US, but when she found out about Hillsong College,

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Speaker 1: she wanted to go. Whatever the cost. I don't remember

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Speaker 1: the exact numbers now, so this was back in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and five. It was expensive, like I did have

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Speaker 1: to save, but it wasn't It wasn't a crazy amount

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Speaker 1: like it was. It was doable. So many Biblical stories

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Speaker 1: of people just being called out of their element and

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Speaker 1: into places they've never been and doing things they've never

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Speaker 1: done so attract and what she learned there wasn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: what she was expecting to learn. You're learning Hillsong culture,

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Speaker 1: you're learning the Hillsong way of doing things, but you're

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Speaker 1: not particularly picking up any kind of actual skills. We

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Speaker 1: used to laugh at the graduation ceremonies where they would

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Speaker 1: trot out, you know, like, oh, here's this great violin player.

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Speaker 1: You know, here's our little string section or whatever, and

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Speaker 1: these are skills these people came here with. Like nobody

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Speaker 1: learned how to play the violin at Hillsong, Like it

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Speaker 1: wasn't until my third year, I think, when they started

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Speaker 1: offering like basic music theory classes. So it was just

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Speaker 1: very here's what the Bible says about worship, but here's

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Speaker 1: actually what Hillsong says about what the Bible says about worship.

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Speaker 1: No actual qualifications or transferable skills. I mean maybe I did,

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Speaker 1: for a time work as part of the cleaning crew,

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Speaker 1: so I was on paid staff as a janitor basically,

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Speaker 1: So if that's a skill I learned how to, I

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Speaker 1: no longer remember exactly how to make Brian Houston's coffee.

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Speaker 1: So he likes his coffee like it's like random, like

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Speaker 1: three long shots of coffee, but like super hot, which

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Speaker 1: means that the grinds are burnt essentially. Yeah, And majority

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Speaker 1: of the time you're like, this is the pastor's coffee,

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Speaker 1: and ninety five percent of the time they didn't drink it.

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Speaker 1: So that was part of my time in Australia. I've

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Speaker 1: learned how to make the pastor's coffee, and I was

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Speaker 1: super intimidated to do it, so I had my team

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Speaker 1: do it. But now I'm just like, I'll make anyone

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Speaker 1: a coffee. Yeah, it's not a big deal. Anything is

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Speaker 1: better than burnt being coffee. Oh yeah, extra hot. The

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Speaker 1: assistants are like and then you couldn't double cup it,

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Speaker 1: so you just had to burn your fucking hand like

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Speaker 1: holding the cup. If you're interested in learning more about

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Speaker 1: burnt being coffee and other stuff, the price tag today

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Speaker 1: for an undergraduate bachelor's in ministry at Hillsong College, Australia

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Speaker 1: is just over twelve thousand US dollars a year for

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Speaker 1: overseas students. The course last three years. But there's a

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Speaker 1: college in California formerly in Arizona as well. But you

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Speaker 1: won't get to make burntbreing coffee for Brian Houston because

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Speaker 1: a big eagle got fired. As time progressed, I realized

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Speaker 1: that I wasn't the only one who had been speaking out.

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Speaker 1: There've been people speaking out for years, more than thirty years.

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Speaker 1: I was now joining the rebellion, some people may say,

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Speaker 1: and honestly it's an honor to call myself part of

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Speaker 1: the rebellion. It's an honor to be called a heretic.

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Speaker 1: Jesus was called a heretic, So for me to be

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Speaker 1: called a heretic, to be called someone who's speaking out,

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Speaker 1: to be called someone who's churning tables or flipping tables,

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Speaker 1: I'm okay with that. Speaking out has been a part

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Speaker 1: of my healing journey, and even that words joe for me.

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Speaker 1: But I'm really grateful that I've been able to find

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Speaker 1: that part of me to speak out. Being a part

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Speaker 1: of the Do Better Church team has helped me a lot.

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Speaker 1: A good friend of mine now it was like, whoever

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Speaker 1: wants to be a part of this thing, Like we

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Speaker 1: don't know what it's going to look like, but we

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Speaker 1: want to hear people's stories. And Folks's courage gave me

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Speaker 1: my own. So that's what started it. It was realizing

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Speaker 1: I wasn't alone. Yeah, and it was during the height

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Speaker 1: of the pandemic too, so we were all home, ye,

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Speaker 1: like just stewing and all of these things, and it

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Speaker 1: was just like I remember just being like fuck this, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I need to get this out. Yeah. Sure, there's like

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Speaker 1: I'm hoping that someone hears me and feels comfortable enough

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Speaker 1: to say their story or be able to acknowledge what

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Speaker 1: they've gone through themselves. But I'm doing it for me

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Speaker 1: and I have been. There was so much that I

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Speaker 1: didn't talk about for years and with anyone, so just

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Speaker 1: the pent up, like I need to let this out.

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Speaker 1: And thankfully Instagram was and has been a tool that's

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Speaker 1: been very useful for me to be able to speak out.

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Speaker 1: After you had left, I would check in to see

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Speaker 1: how you were doing. Yeah. But when I left, I

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Speaker 1: texted you and I said, Tiff, I left Hill Song,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. And then we started

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Speaker 1: talking and I shared my experience and we were like

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Speaker 1: there for each other over text yeah, and then over

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Speaker 1: the phone. And then you reach out and told me

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Speaker 1: about Do Better Church. Yeah, and I was like okay,

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Speaker 1: like sure, I'll write it out, and we started like

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Speaker 1: sharing more and writing out. I think Do Better Church

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Speaker 1: is like a big connection probably for the three of us.

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Speaker 1: I remember I wrote like almost like three to five pages,

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Speaker 1: like it was long, and I submitted it and I

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Speaker 1: was like, I don't know who's going to read this,

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Speaker 1: and if it's going to be shared, I don't care

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Speaker 1: but at least I did it, and from there it

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Speaker 1: was like a catalyst. And then things started happening on

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Speaker 1: social media and I started like posting war and calling

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Speaker 1: pastors out. And that's how like like we were connected,

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Speaker 1: Like you were a big part for me to start

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Speaker 1: sharing because you told me about do better church. So

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Speaker 1: to hear you say that was also a big part

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Speaker 1: for you, and that I was also in genis is

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Speaker 1: also a part for you to start sharing your story.

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Speaker 1: Like that's that's deep. We finally found safety. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it was through the internet. Yeah, when speaking out rage

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Speaker 1: is actually really important because it helps give you some

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Speaker 1: courage to say the things that you've been wanting to say.

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Speaker 1: Oftentimes you tend to protect people or you were taught

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Speaker 1: to protect your pastor or your leader growing up in church.

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Speaker 1: Speaking out comes with consequences. But when it came to Hillsong,

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Speaker 1: I realized that it was a whole nother level because

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Speaker 1: Hillsong isn't a whole other level economically, and they have

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Speaker 1: more power socially. There are millions of people who follow

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Speaker 1: the church on social media and on different platforms, so

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Speaker 1: the backlash was at a different level. And that's what

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Speaker 1: I wasn't prepared for when I first started speaking out,

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Speaker 1: and I started receiving backlash from different leaders from the church,

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Speaker 1: from different trolls. I ended up having to admit myself

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Speaker 1: into the hospital because of all the backlash that I received.

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Speaker 1: Everyone wanted to know about Hillsong. You start learning more

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Speaker 1: about like the media and about reporter is and what

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Speaker 1: they're looking for. Then you start getting labeled by people

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Speaker 1: within the church. Yes, as like the gossipers and the naysayers.

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Speaker 1: If you're not in line with Hillsong, then you're automatically

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Speaker 1: a troublemaker. You're a God hater, you're a liar, you're

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Speaker 1: a gossiper. And I'm like, Okay, you want to continue

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Speaker 1: throwing labels out, sure, but can we talk about yours too,

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Speaker 1: and what you've been complicit with and what you're allowing

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Speaker 1: And so if I'm going to be a troublemaker, then

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Speaker 1: good trouble right. Yeah, I didn't set out to be

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Speaker 1: a troublemaker, and I shouldn't be right, Like, if you

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Speaker 1: guys were doing the right thing. There's so much going

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Speaker 1: on in the world. It's just so weird that we're

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Speaker 1: public enemy number one, Like, where are your biggest concern. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not the way people's rights are being stripped or not,

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Speaker 1: you know, the abuse that's happening. Yeah, none of that,

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Speaker 1: Like you're not looking within its people who are telling

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Speaker 1: it's the people who were sorry who were speaking about

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Speaker 1: like the people who are trying to stop trouble. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: are the trouble troublemakers. It's just so backwards, like if

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Speaker 1: you're not us, then you're against us. It's like I

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Speaker 1: need to say something for myself and if you don't

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Speaker 1: like it, then maybe you should have acted better. He've

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Speaker 1: better treated people better. But if you're still not doing it,

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Speaker 1: then I'm going to question it and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: continue to call you out and I'm going to continue

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Speaker 1: get blocked. I don't care you got blocks. I've been

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Speaker 1: blocked by Brian Howson on Twitter and I'm not even

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Speaker 1: on Twitter like that you welcome to the club and

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Speaker 1: I've been blocked. I was blocked because I tweeted something

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Speaker 1: you told me to tweet. I was like, yeah, do

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Speaker 1: that write it? Okay? The block blocked? Have you been blocked?

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Speaker 1: Are you? Are you part of the club? No, what

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Speaker 1: I can either in or out. I can't get blocked

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Speaker 1: by Brian Man. I guess I'm in. It got really scary.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do. I was being targeted

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Speaker 1: and stalked on social media by different leaders, constantly getting messages,

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Speaker 1: and it was just a little bit too overwhelming for me.

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Speaker 1: I had to step away for my own safety. Whenever

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Speaker 1: stories are shared in the media, or whenever we share

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Speaker 1: in different like documentaries or articles, you don't hear often

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Speaker 1: people talk about racism and it's so frustrating because it's

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Speaker 1: there and it's so visible, but no one has the

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Speaker 1: courage or I don't even know what it is to

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Speaker 1: just step into that and talk about because it's real,

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Speaker 1: it's there and it happens. And there's like two women

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Speaker 1: of color and an afab of color, like that's big. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: For me, there was this glass ceiling constantly. As a Latina,

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Speaker 1: there's hardly any representation of anything but white Australian. Right

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Speaker 1: for me to be a woman of color, I'm already

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Speaker 1: a woman and then a woman of color was just like,

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Speaker 1: all right, well, you can help with hospitality things and

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Speaker 1: you can help with taking care of people, but to

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Speaker 1: see yourself on a stage, yeah, that wasn't going to happen.

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Speaker 1: But I'm there because they needed the representation for the

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Speaker 1: brochures and for look at what we do on social media.

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Speaker 1: They're never going to talk about the ugly. I was

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Speaker 1: called exotic while I was at holl Song College because

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Speaker 1: I'm Puto Rican and I'm like fam no, like, yes

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Speaker 1: i am, but no, not to you, Like that's not

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Speaker 1: available to you. The people who have spoken out about

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Speaker 1: the racism, they've received attacks and they've received death threats.

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Speaker 1: It goes back to this troublemaker thing. You're labeled as

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Speaker 1: a troublemaker, but now people are going to threaten you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it happens in Christian spaces all the time. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: a thousand percent. What about for you, Jennie. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's kind of Hillsong is a colonial company, right, it

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Speaker 1: goes where it goes as a colonizer. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: just wild to think about it now. But like we

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Speaker 1: just accepted that and through the doors opening. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: white men from way over there come over here and

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Speaker 1: tell us how to do church. Yeah. And so I

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Speaker 1: mean it was always always there, blatantly right on the surface,

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Speaker 1: but we didn't see and we're just having very different

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Speaker 1: conversations now than we were ten years ago. But when

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Speaker 1: we did start having those conversations, I think people can

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Speaker 1: see it, but people don't want to talk about it

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Speaker 1: because then we have to get into conversations about intentions

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Speaker 1: versus you know, impact, and people suddenly want to become

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Speaker 1: very like factual and they want you to prove things

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Speaker 1: and like show it to me on paper. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it's like you can't. And people don't believe people of color,

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Speaker 1: they don't believe women, they don't believe women of color.

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Speaker 1: Can they immediately turn everything back on you? Right? And

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Speaker 1: so for me to say, I mean, I'm ghostwriting Josh

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Speaker 1: Kayne's sermons, I'm writing the connect group studies you guys

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Speaker 1: are using across the church. But he's qualified to be

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Speaker 1: a preacher, but I'm not. But I can never say

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Speaker 1: that because then it becomes why do you think you

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Speaker 1: should be a preacher? Now? It's about my heart, right

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Speaker 1: and what I want and what am I in it for? Ye?

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Speaker 1: And you know what do you really would you really

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Speaker 1: care about? Yeah? So, like much of the work we

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Speaker 1: do for them, So before we're even having these conversations,

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Speaker 1: you've probably done months, if not years, of talking yourself

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Speaker 1: down right and being like, no, it's not it's not

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Speaker 1: about me. And then by the time I'm seeing something,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if Carlins doesn't see it. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: he's not going to believe me because you're too close

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Speaker 1: to this topic and you have an agenda now, right,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, the conversation goes nowhere, and then you

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Speaker 1: get caught in that space of well, I have to

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Speaker 1: be the change I want to see, So now I've

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Speaker 1: got to stay here and work, work with him and

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Speaker 1: work on this and maybe that's that's mine, that's why

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Speaker 1: i'm because that's also something they get you to do,

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Speaker 1: to do their labor. Well, I mean, and then Carl

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Speaker 1: even even now, like you'll still see people. Yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: but he said black lives matter. Carl always loved black people. Carl. Oh,

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Speaker 1: we appreciate Carl, And I'm like, no, he didn't. He

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Speaker 1: was doing the least nobody else was saying. It's so

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Speaker 1: much great. It was just saying saying it and liking

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Speaker 1: that attention. Yeah, and getting that attention. Yeah, like it

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Speaker 1: implicates everybody. Look at him, He's saying black lives matter.

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Speaker 1: Why are you more grateful? Right? Because we're so devalued.

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Speaker 1: We should be thankful for any scraps and then honestly

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Speaker 1: that should hold you for a good long while. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like you guys like you just always want more, so

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Speaker 1: then it becomes about us again. It's just exhausting. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's tiring work, and especially when people don't want

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Speaker 1: to do it. Troublemaking is exhausting, tough work. Not everyone

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Speaker 1: can do it. So we've been speaking out, and I

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Speaker 1: know the message that we've had has changed over time.

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Speaker 1: I know for me, at first it was just don't

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Speaker 1: abuse people, stop, like do better, but now I'm like,

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Speaker 1: fuck it, burn it down. What does justice and accountability

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Speaker 1: look like for you? Tif with a oologies has to

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Speaker 1: come action steps. There's been weak as apologies. It's always

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Speaker 1: that I'm sorry, you feel right sorry if you yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you felt that way. Yeah, it's never this acknowledgement.

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Speaker 1: There's no holding anyone responsible in a Hillsong world. And

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Speaker 1: it's globally like if Hillsong could have gone to different

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Speaker 1: planets in different universes, they would have. Now they're falling

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Speaker 1: apart because they're dumpster fire. Yeah, but there's no accountability,

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Speaker 1: like they're reaping what they sowed. It's literally they're crumbling

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Speaker 1: on their own because of their own actions. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: their foundation wasn't good to begin with, right, and that's

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Speaker 1: not going to stand the test of time. Right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The Bible talks about building on sand by by house.

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Speaker 1: What about for you, Janice? I mean, in a perfect world,

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Speaker 1: justice and accountability would look like Hillsong being dismantled, all

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Speaker 1: of their finances being brought to the front, and them

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Speaker 1: having to repay everybody return tied to return tuition, and

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Speaker 1: be forced to pay for a people's therapy. I don't

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Speaker 1: think we're ever going to see justice. It's possible, but

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Speaker 1: I feel like most of them are just gonna skate away. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: None of them have repented. None of them have given

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Speaker 1: any true apologies, shown any true remorse. So I have

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Speaker 1: to be satisfied with knowing they're not happy people. That

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Speaker 1: turmoil that they have, They've earned it, and that's theirs

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Speaker 1: to keep. I just want the institution to not exist anymore. Okay,

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Speaker 1: to at least get out of the United States. You

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Speaker 1: can do whatever you're going to do in Australia. That's

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Speaker 1: none of my business, but you need to get out

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Speaker 1: of here. And you know, when I see them on

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Speaker 1: the online streets to remind them of who they are. Ye,

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Speaker 1: so you're not Yeah, you can move on to another church.

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Speaker 1: But if I see you, I'm gonna say something. And

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Speaker 1: I mean true, Jesice, the best justice is just us

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Speaker 1: living our best lives. Yeah, and we are getting there.

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Speaker 1: I'm working in public health and LGBTQ rights advocacy. I'm

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Speaker 1: doing truly meaningful work and I'm being paid for it.

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Speaker 1: I'm in a relationship. I have family and friends who

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Speaker 1: love me. And I look at Janice, who've written a

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Speaker 1: new musical, who is sharing her creativity with the world

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Speaker 1: on her terms. And I look at Tiff, who is

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Speaker 1: also doing a job she loves, getting properly paid for

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Speaker 1: supporting children. I was told that you brought something today, Janice.

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Speaker 1: Could you share a little bit more about that bearing gifts?

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Speaker 1: Sure you come burying gifts. It's not a gift. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's a okay to you? Oh my god? Um yeah,

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Speaker 1: just thinking about because we haven't met in person, yeah before,

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Speaker 1: and we have we have so much history, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it's it's a weird history. It is right,

382
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: like we're tied together and we know so many of

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Speaker 1: the same people. Yeah, when we come from the same place,

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Speaker 1: but we've never been in the same place. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: I just wrote this letter. Okay, I mean it feels

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Speaker 1: like I just read the letter. You can go for it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah so, no, immy. A Life of Significance. That was

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Speaker 1: the tagline, the motto, the slogan emblazoned across the T

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Speaker 1: shirts and messenger bags they handed out on registration day

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Speaker 1: at Hillsong International Leadership College when I arrived in May

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Speaker 1: of two thousand and five. A life of significance Hillsong

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Speaker 1: lies about a lot, and it's wrong about a lot.

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Speaker 1: And I suspect they were lying about that, but they

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Speaker 1: weren't wrong. And I think a lot about the signific

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Speaker 1: against I may have had in your story. I lose

396
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Speaker 1: time imagining ways I could have changed, not the outcome,

397
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 1: because here we are, but the middle, the parts I

398
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: helped set in motion and then missed. But who could

399
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Speaker 1: have known? What percentage of responsibility does my well intentioned

400
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: service hold for the hell you were steered into? And

401
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 1: regardless of the answer, how can I make it up

402
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: to you to tiff to everyone hurt? That's the question,

403
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: that's the quest to be as dedicated to the dismantling

404
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: as I was, to the dissonance and memory of what

405
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: happened to you, but not really for you at this point,

406
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: because you're all right. You lived, and you are living

407
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: as yourself in spite of all the ways the leaders

408
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: of Philo Song Boston leaned into and led with their

409
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: own fears and insecurities to discourage you, discourage me and

410
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 1: everyone who wasn't a white boy. And here we are

411
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Speaker 1: looking back with more sorrow than anyone should have about

412
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Speaker 1: a place that loved to say welcome home, and more

413
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Speaker 1: laughter than expected. And as much as I wish everything

414
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Speaker 1: could have been different, if I'm honest, I probably wouldn't

415
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: change a thing. I'm not saying the pain was worth

416
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: the inside jokes, but some folks still only have the pain.

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Speaker 1: So I'm very thankful for you, and I'm proud of

418
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: you in ways I don't have any right to be,

419
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Speaker 1: because I was no help to you. But I've learned

420
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: anything from Hill Song, It's how to take the most

421
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: credit for doing the least. Amen. And as Hill Song

422
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: continues to burn, it's an honor, it's a joy. It's

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Speaker 1: a good time to be standing on the right side

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Speaker 1: of the fire with you, And after so much time

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00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: and so many attempts by so many people to turn

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00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: us into useful, Hillsong approved versions of us, it turns

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00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: out that a life simply lived as ourselves really is

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Speaker 1: a life of significance. Thankful for, proud of, and proud

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00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: to know you, Mad Love Jennis. Wow, thank you. That

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Speaker 1: was I'm like holding back tears right now. You're an

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Speaker 1: amazing person. I didn't know this was happening. So this

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Speaker 1: is it's like a complete like shock to me. You

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Speaker 1: say in your letter that you feel like you had

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Speaker 1: some responsibility. Yeah, and I don't see that, and I

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00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: feel I'm sorry that you do. For me, it was

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00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 1: like beyond our control because that was a Brian Houston thing.

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00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and that was not your it's not your

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00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: very christianise. It's not your burden to bear. Yeah, thank you,

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00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: Thank you, Janice Lagata and Tiffany Press, thank you for

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00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: this Health Song reunion. When I look at the three

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Speaker 1: of us, I think we will survive. We left hill

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00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: Song and face the backlash, but we kept going. And

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00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: whatever happens to Hillsong, whether it survives and thrives or

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00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: whether it crumbles and falls, we will be okay, because,

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00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: as Jana says, a life simply lived as ourselves is

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00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: a life of significance. We have not given up the fight.

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Speaker 1: I do believe we all suffered spiritual abuse in this church,

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Speaker 1: and I still want answers from Hillsong, So in this

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Speaker 1: final episode, I'm still searching for accountability and justice,