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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's got to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to itapen here. This may be my

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Speaker 3: final episode on Latin American onechism. That is, we've called Peru, Chile, Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay,

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Speaker 3: the many countries of Central America, the former countries of

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Speaker 3: Grand Colombia, and the Spaanifoon Islands the Caribbean. Now we'll

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Speaker 3: finally get into the big one, Mexico. And I say

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Speaker 3: we because I'm here with Garrison Davis.

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Speaker 4: Hello, is this has been it's got to be like

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Speaker 4: a year long series now right.

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Speaker 3: At this point, and yeah, it's going to go around

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Speaker 3: for some time with breaks in between and everything.

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Speaker 4: I'm very very excited.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, to introduce myself real quick, I'm Andrew Sage. You

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Speaker 3: can find me on YouTube, but androism and we should

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Speaker 3: have check out the show notes for all the references,

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Speaker 3: including a health capalities anarchism in Latin America, which was

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Speaker 3: an indispensable resource for the entirety of this project. Without

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Speaker 3: further Ado faminos, we have a lot to cover. Mexico

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Speaker 3: is a massive and storied country, so I can only

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Speaker 3: really give you a gist of its pre colonial and

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Speaker 3: colonial history. For the necessary context, we have to start

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Speaker 3: thousands of years before the name Mexico or Mexico even existed.

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Speaker 3: Of course, according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, the land we

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Speaker 3: now call Mexico is home to some of the world's

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Speaker 3: most unique ancient civilizations whose came the Olmechs, often called

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Speaker 3: the mother culture of meso America, known for their colossal

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Speaker 3: stoneheads and influence on later cultures there with their dazzlin cities,

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Speaker 3: mathematics and calendars, and eventually the Aztecs, who built the

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Speaker 3: Grand Empire, settled onto nor Stitland, which is now Mexico City. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: we can't spend much time on this rich history. We

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Speaker 3: must progress to the time of European contact. In fifteen nineteen,

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Speaker 3: everything changed. Spanish Conquistra and nan Cortez arrived, and within

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Speaker 3: just two years the mighty Aztec Empire fell disease. Alliances

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Speaker 3: with native enemies of the Aztecs, technological advantages and brutal

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Speaker 3: warfare aided the Spaniards overthrowing a civilization of millions. What

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Speaker 3: followed was three centuries of colonial rule under New Spain,

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Speaker 3: marked by extraction, Catholic conversion, and the mixing, often violently,

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Speaker 3: of indigenous European and African peoples. By the early eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 3: the winds of independence were finally blowing. A Catholic priest

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Speaker 3: named Miguel Hidalgo sparked the fight with a cry for

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Speaker 3: freedom in eighteen ten. Specifically, he sought the end of

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Speaker 3: rule by Spanish peninsulars, which are the people who came

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Speaker 3: from Spain and ruled over Mexico. He called for the

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Speaker 3: equality of races, and he called for the redistribution of land.

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Speaker 3: As a hill capbility put it in anarchism in Latin miracle,

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Speaker 3: hid Illgo proposed to abolish, even if by gentle and

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Speaker 3: gradual means, what he called, in almost Prudonian terms, the

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Speaker 3: horrible right of territorial property, perpetual hereditary and exclusive. This

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Speaker 3: whole land topic is going to come up a lot

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Speaker 3: in the history. By the way, you may be familiar

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Speaker 3: with the phrase land and freedom, the aira liberdad that

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Speaker 3: comes from Mexico. Anyway. It took more than a decade

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Speaker 3: of war, but by eighteen twenty one Mexico had finally

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Speaker 3: broken free from Spain. Freedom, though didn't mean stability. The

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Speaker 3: nineteenth century saw emperors come and go, because there was

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Speaker 3: actually a time when Mexico as a monarchy, Foreign invasions

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Speaker 3: by the United States via the Manifest Destiny and Napoleon's

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Speaker 3: France via monarchical Latin League, and internal power struggles. The

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Speaker 3: Zapatec president Benito Juarez, who from eighteen sixty four to

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Speaker 3: eighteen sixty seven had resisted foreign occupation by Napoleon's emperor

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Speaker 3: Maximilian and fought for constitutional reform, sought to stabilize, secularize,

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Speaker 3: and modernize the country. In the mid eighteen hundreds, figures

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Speaker 3: like Quarez led a sweeping movement against the old powers

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Speaker 3: of Mexico, the Catholic Church and the military, which had

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Speaker 3: long dominated both land and politics. To the layers de reformer.

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Speaker 3: They seized church property, secularized education and promised a new

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Speaker 3: era of rights and equality. But there was a catch,

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Speaker 3: because to weaken the Church, the liberals sold off its land,

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Speaker 3: not to the peasants or indigenous communities who had worked

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Speaker 3: on it for generations, but to wealthy buyers, the heroes.

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Speaker 3: The communal lands of indigenous peoples were privatized under this

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Speaker 3: liberal banner freedom and progress. They created a new class

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Speaker 3: of landlords and pushed rural people deeper into poverty. Benito

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Speaker 3: Juarez died, but his legacy lived on with those reforms

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Speaker 3: to cement the separation of church and state, freedom of religion,

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Speaker 3: the prohibition of forced labor, and so on. But following

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Speaker 3: him came the Portfyriato, a thirty year long dictatorship under

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Speaker 3: the mixed tech president Porfyrio Dias, who continued the modernization

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Speaker 3: of the country but also deepened its long standing inequalities.

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Speaker 3: Portforio Dias surrounded himself with intellectuals known as the scientificos

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Speaker 3: They were positivists, as in adherents of the positivist school

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Speaker 3: of philosophy, which advocated for rational planning and economic development

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Speaker 3: as a path of social progress. His slogan was ban Opalo,

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Speaker 3: the bread or the stick, and reflected the policy of

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Speaker 3: rewarding compliance with prosperity while punishing dissent with severe consequences.

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Speaker 3: The liberty order and progress equation sacrificed liberty as the

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Speaker 3: Mexican people were expected to trade freedom for the benefits

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Speaker 3: of these policies. Workers ended up facings low wages, long hours,

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Speaker 3: and of course lacked rights, while estate laborers were landless

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Speaker 3: and under the arbitrary rule of Mayo demos, education was

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Speaker 3: largely restricted to elites. In major cities, groups like the

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Speaker 3: Yaqi Indians were forcibly relocated as cheap labor to plantations. Governors,

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Speaker 3: those supposedly elected, were effectively presidential appointees, monitored by Hipe's

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Speaker 3: politicals who intervened the local affairs. The roulatis and elite

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Speaker 3: constabulary maintained order but often disregarded due process, which fostered

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Speaker 3: a whole reign of terror in the rural areas. Diaz's

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Speaker 3: popularity eventually waned as prosperity was monopolized by a small,

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Speaker 3: often foreign elite. This elite emulated European customs, which created

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Speaker 3: a stark divide with the growing protis and middle classes.

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Speaker 3: By the second half of the nineteenth century, Mexico was

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Speaker 3: caught in a contradiction a state that promised emancipation through

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Speaker 3: property rights, while this possessing the very people it claimed

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Speaker 3: to free. The liberal project had failed them, and in

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Speaker 3: its failure space opened for deeper critiques of property power

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Speaker 3: and the state itself. A younger generation began questioning the system,

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Speaker 3: and with this rise in criticism came rising repression, which

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Speaker 3: set the stage for the Mexican Revolution of nineteen ten.

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Speaker 4: This whole era of like the turn of the millennia

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Speaker 4: and the start of the twentieth century has like so

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Speaker 4: much of this same stuff happening all over the world.

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Speaker 4: Like that's kind of one of the biggest trends that

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Speaker 4: we've been able to see throughout your Latin American anarchism

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Speaker 4: series is like how how much they all mirror each other,

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Speaker 4: and like how much of like a global movements used

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Speaker 4: to exist, like not like an organized fashion, but like

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Speaker 4: there's like some like other force that is that is

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Speaker 4: like a driving these like global trends of like revoltant revolution. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and like we see this a lot in like the yeah,

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Speaker 4: like the nineteen ten to nineteen twenty time period. I

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Speaker 4: mean even just in Latin America.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. I also think, of course, it's really easy to

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Speaker 3: notice these trends and notice these tides of history and retrospect.

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Speaker 3: You know, when you submerged in it, it's just like,

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Speaker 3: you know, all these conversations and stuff happening, for sure,

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Speaker 3: all these events and stuff happening around you. But when

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Speaker 3: you by looking in the past, you could say, oh wow,

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Speaker 3: this is like a global pattern, you know. So I'm

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Speaker 3: always curious to see like when we look back, I mean,

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Speaker 3: the twenty ten is already over. The narratives around it

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Speaker 3: are still formulated, right, We're still in the midst of

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Speaker 3: the nineteen twenty in the nineteen twenties, the twenty twenties, say,

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Speaker 3: you know, the nowseron it will still be development all now.

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Speaker 3: But we're already halfway through, and I'm sure people have

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Speaker 3: already seen suitent trends that are going to make for

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Speaker 3: some excellent retrospective commentary.

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Speaker 4: Definitely. Yeah, Like the past ten years we've seen this

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Speaker 4: like global far right power grab and this like rebirth

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Speaker 4: of right wing populism sweeping a whole bunch of neoliberal democracies,

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Speaker 4: like like post nineties, post War on Terror, post end

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Speaker 4: of history stuff where you see like the full extent

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Speaker 4: of like the Clinton, Reagan Thatcher economics completely completely crumble

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Speaker 4: with far right populism like taking taking over the reins

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Speaker 4: of most popular consciousness. Yeah, to the point where even

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Speaker 4: like the more like liberal parties are being quote unquote

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Speaker 4: forced to adopt like similar rhetoric looking at like like

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Speaker 4: like the Labor Party in the UK and hearing the States,

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Speaker 4: how how much like the Democratic Party last year like

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Speaker 4: completely caved on like far right populist talking points on

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Speaker 4: immigration and stuff.

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Speaker 3: Exactly. I think part of it as well is a

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Speaker 3: failure to advance a positive, totally direction and a positive program.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: You know, when we allow the tunes of discourse, the

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Speaker 3: arena of discussion, to be dictated by the right, when

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Speaker 3: we simply react to what they are saying, when we

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Speaker 3: simply respond to their policies and their efforts, you know,

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Speaker 3: we may slow down the progress of their goals, but ultimately,

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Speaker 3: as long as we are engaged in dialogue with their goals,

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Speaker 3: they are storely inching their goals closer and closer to reality.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that is certainly the trend that that I've been

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Speaker 4: seeing the past ten years and I'm sure sure many

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Speaker 4: people have.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the overturn windows pretty much entirely dictated

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Speaker 3: by what they decide, you know. I think I've mentioned

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Speaker 3: this before. The right to decided they wanted to talk

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Speaker 3: about critical race theory, and then critical race theory became

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Speaker 3: the center of conversation. The right decided they wanted it

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Speaker 3: to target.

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Speaker 4: DEI gender ideology.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, and then that becomes the whole thing, is

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Speaker 3: that the center discussion. They are not putting forward the

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Speaker 3: policies that are going to hoot pretty much everybody as

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Speaker 3: the center of their policy. That's more like an a

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Speaker 3: side when they give themselves, you know, salary raises and

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Speaker 3: they cut taxes on the ridge. That's not the center

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Speaker 3: of their political message. Center the polical messages, you know,

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Speaker 3: various culture related issues that they can use s rority

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Speaker 3: their base, but it's nothing that's actually benefiting people, you know.

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Speaker 3: And instead of circumventing that, that effort to dictate the

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Speaker 3: course of conversation, dictate our own conversations instead of what

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Speaker 3: it's kind of following along the tail. But that's a

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Speaker 3: bit outside the scope of of this a bit of

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Speaker 3: a digression here. But before we get to the point

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Speaker 3: of the Mexican Revolution, though, we should really take a

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Speaker 3: look at the slow and steady development of radical ideas

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Speaker 3: in Mexico during the nineteenth century. You see indigenous resistance

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Speaker 3: persisted throughout Mexico's history through often quiet, revolved acts of

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Speaker 3: non cooperation that would steadily ensure that Spain could never

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Speaker 3: fully establish his dominion. Even after independence, the culdnal structure

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Speaker 3: lived on in the hasciendas, the church, and the state,

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Speaker 3: so the indigenous communities would continue to resist, sometimes in

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Speaker 3: profoundly anti authoritarian ways by the nineteenth century. And this

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Speaker 3: history is courtesy and hill capialtes anarchism in Latin America.

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Speaker 3: As I mentioned in eighteen sixty one, a man arrived

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Speaker 3: in Mexico with a very distinct name. He was Platino

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Speaker 3: Constantino Rorocanati. He was a Greek immigrant radicalized by the

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Speaker 3: revolutions in Europe and steeped in the works of Furia,

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Speaker 3: who was a utopian socialist, and Prudon, who was an

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Speaker 3: anarchist fust anarchist. He had fled the counter revolutionary tide

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Speaker 3: crashing over the continent with a mission. Roccanati believed Mexico,

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Speaker 3: with its long standing indigenous traditions of communal landholding and

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Speaker 3: mutual aid was the perfect police to plant the seeds

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Speaker 3: of a new utopian society. And in a lot of

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Speaker 3: ways he was right, you know. He saw in the

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Speaker 3: a Hero system, the indigenous Kuna Lantennire a living echo

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Speaker 3: of the kind of society Utopians in Europe could only

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Speaker 3: dream of. Where the liberally saw backwardness, Rota Kanati saw potential.

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Speaker 3: His aim wasn't to civilize these communities, but to learn

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Speaker 3: from them and help them protect their autoroity from the

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Speaker 3: encroaging state through political philosophy and practice. He seemed to

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Speaker 3: be a very interesting fellow by the way. I mean,

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Speaker 3: he apparently spoke seven languages. He practiced medicine by day

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Speaker 3: and philosophy by night. He was a Christian, but not

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Speaker 3: anything like the Christians that dominated Mexico at the time, because,

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Speaker 3: as anhil Capelt he puts it for him, the essence

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Speaker 3: of Christianity is charity, that is love for all, as

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Speaker 3: it is taught in the Gospels, and that essence is

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Speaker 3: the moral foundation of socialism and revolution as well. Pure Christianity,

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Speaker 3: he wrote, is the religion that will regenerate the world

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Speaker 3: when people finally come to understand the power of its

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Speaker 3: basic principles liberty, equality and fraternity. But it is Christianity

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Speaker 3: without dogma like Saint Simon's, and without priesthood, liturgy or

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Speaker 3: hierarchical organization, the model for which he finds in the

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Speaker 3: life of Jesus and his earliest followers. Primitive Christianity is

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Speaker 3: authentic Christianity, but has been entirely degraded by the Catholic

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Speaker 3: and Protestant churches, and has nothing to do with so

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Speaker 3: many sexs that call themselves Christian end quote. A few

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Speaker 3: months after his arrival in eighteen sixty one, he published

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Speaker 3: a socialist primary in Mexico that marked him as the

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Speaker 3: first anarchist to put forward distinctly anarchist theory in the country.

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Speaker 3: In the mid eighteen sixties, he formed a group called

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Speaker 3: Lass Social the goal of spreading the ideas of mutualism,

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Speaker 3: free association, anti capitalist cooperation through books, pamphlets, and education.

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Speaker 3: Barukannati and his collaborators launched workers schools aimed the promoting literacy,

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Speaker 3: political consciousness, and autonomy. Once at school was the Esquila

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Speaker 3: de Rao idel Socialismo, the School of Lightning and socialism hell.

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Speaker 3: Yet it combined moral instruction with a deep critique of

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Speaker 3: the exploitative labor system. This was, you know, education as

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Speaker 3: a rebellion, not just to read, but to recognize the

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Speaker 3: exploitation and to imagine alternatives. Rudicnati thought of his socialism

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Speaker 3: as the fullest expression of the French revolutionary motto of liberty,

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Speaker 3: equality and fraternity, which no half measure like liberalism could

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Speaker 3: ever reach. He recognized that the immediate objective must be quote,

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Speaker 3: the extinction of poverty, the distribution and increase to the commonwealth,

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Speaker 3: the abolition of prostitution, and the conservation of all our faculties,

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Speaker 3: including the intellectual, physical, and moral ones, for the transformation

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Speaker 3: of humanity through science, beauty and virtue end quote. One

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Speaker 3: of those things was not like the others. I'm surely noticed.

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Speaker 3: There was a standout inclusion there, but it makes sense

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Speaker 3: considering his background. He also saw himself as a cosmopolitan,

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Speaker 3: perhaps owing in part his unique circumstances as a man

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Speaker 3: with a Greek father, Austrian mother, a French education, and

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Speaker 3: Mexican who he said, quote, we are Cosmopolitans by nature,

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Speaker 3: citizens of all nations, and contemporaries to all the Asias,

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Speaker 3: the greatest and most heroic human actions belong equally to

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Speaker 3: all end quote. In other words, our country is the

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Speaker 3: entire world, and all men are brothers. He also wrote

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Speaker 3: that the abolition of all governments in the nations, which

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Speaker 3: frightens you and you consider impossible and absurd they have

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Speaker 3: ever tried it, will usher in a totally new world

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Speaker 3: of institutions, in which the peoples of the world will

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Speaker 3: live in happiness end quote. Brouclati was a pacifist and

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Speaker 3: his approached anarchism, which owed his original introduction of socialism

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Speaker 3: being via Charles Furia, but eventually he came to the

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Speaker 3: stand the need for a class struggle, as he said, quote,

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Speaker 3: a social revolution in which many heroic victims will be

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Speaker 3: sacrificed in the sacred altar to restore the justice denied

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Speaker 3: it to the people end quote. His work attracted young radicals,

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Speaker 3: many of whom would later play key roles in the

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Speaker 3: development of Mexico's labor movement. Before he started Laso Ciel,

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Speaker 3: he'd initiated the first Grupo Destudiante Socialistas, from which came

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Speaker 3: figures such as Santiago Villanueva, who tried to organize the

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Speaker 3: worker's movement Permeneghuillo, Filla, Vicinzio, and Francisco's Alacosta, a leader

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Speaker 3: of rural masses. It's the core of this group that

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Speaker 3: would help him to create Lasocil, which would educate and agitate,

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Speaker 3: but also assist workers beyond mutual aid to an active

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Speaker 3: class struggle posture in defense of the interests against bosses.

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Speaker 3: So basically, he took these mutual aid societies and made

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Speaker 3: sure that they didn't stay mutual aid societies, that they

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Speaker 3: were radicalized into resistance societies. Because those sort of mutual

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Speaker 3: aid associations were very common in Latin America at the time.

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Speaker 3: You know, workers would create these little groups where they

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Speaker 3: would try and support each other. But it's very easy

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Speaker 3: to fall back on that and to assume, you know,

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Speaker 3: that's all you have to do. Making sure that they

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Speaker 3: have a radical posture, a revolutionary posture. It's important to

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Speaker 3: ensure that they're not just rest in your laurels and

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Speaker 3: expecting change to come to you, and indeed, they did

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Speaker 3: not expect the change to come to them. In June

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Speaker 3: eighteen sixty five, these resistant societies supported the first industrial

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Speaker 3: strike in Mexico. Unfortunately, it was crushed by the leader

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Speaker 3: of the country at the time, Emperor Maximilian, but it

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Speaker 3: was his occupation and the economic harshness of it all

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Speaker 3: that fermented the spread of anarchist ideas. Another stud on

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Speaker 3: Talt of Rocannati school came Julio Chavez, a precursor to

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Speaker 3: the more famous Emiliano Zapata and a fervent anarchist communist.

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Speaker 3: He agitated for a peasant rebellion and engage in land expropriations,

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Speaker 3: which grew in popularity wherever he was active, from the

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Speaker 3: Cholco texokore John where he began to all the states

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Speaker 3: of Quibbler and Morella as Coupleleetti recounts quote. The federal

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Speaker 3: army finally moved against him and defeated and imprisoned. He

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Speaker 3: was executed in eighteen sixty nine by order of President

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Speaker 3: Benito Juarez. Before he died, Chavez cried out, long Live

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Speaker 3: Socialism end quote. His manifesto, which was written a few

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Speaker 3: months before he died, would help introduce more masses in

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Speaker 3: the Mexican movement to the idea of class drugl and

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Speaker 3: like a light bulb over one's head, it immediately it

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Speaker 3: clear who was responsible for their suffering. Santiago vil and

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Speaker 3: Weaver and a fellow student to Rocanati named Villa Vicenzio

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Speaker 3: worked arduously to organize the artisans and workers in Mexico City,

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Speaker 3: and they definitely had the cards stacked against them, but

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Speaker 3: they helped to organize an industrial strike in a textile

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Speaker 3: mill in eighteen sixty eight, and in eighteen sixty nine

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Speaker 3: they established a Circulo Peraltario, and in eighteen seventy the

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Speaker 3: Grand Seculio de Obreros de Mexico and in eighteen seventy

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Speaker 3: one the newspaper Al Socialista. This is when the red

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Speaker 3: and black so famously associated with anarchism came into the

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Speaker 3: Mexican workers' movement. The eighteen seventies saw struggles between radical

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Speaker 3: and moderate factions among workers, proletarian presses making a name

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Speaker 3: for themselves, and the first convention of the General Workers

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Speaker 3: Congress of the Mexican Republic in eighteen seventy six with

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Speaker 3: a manifesto that indicated the crown influence of libertarian ideology

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Speaker 3: in Mexico. Of course, there was a tension in that

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Speaker 3: Congress between the socialists and the anarchists, but water is wet. Sadly,

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Speaker 3: Mexico wasn't ready for revolution, or rather the ruling class wasn't.

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Speaker 3: While Roadcinnati and others sold seeds among students and workers,

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Speaker 3: the country was swinging toward reaction. As I mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 3: with the rise of Porfilio Diaz in eighteen seventy six,

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Speaker 3: any space for radical thought began to close. Diaz, the

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Speaker 3: stronglan of Oneization, was obsessed with order and progress. He

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Speaker 3: welcomed foreign capital, built railroads across the nation, and gutted

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Speaker 3: the countryside to make room for exports, and he crushed dissent.

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Speaker 3: While Roccarati avoided outright persecution thanks in partists foreign status

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Speaker 3: and paspest leanings, the educational projects he inspired were dismantled

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Speaker 3: or sidelined. The more confrontational elements of the ole anarchists

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Speaker 3: current went underground. Those who spoke of abolishing property or

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Speaker 3: questioned the Porphylian vision of modernity were met with jail, exile,

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Speaker 3: or worse. Rocnati's allies, Alacosta, through his newspaper Like International,

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Speaker 3: promoted a twelve point socialist agenda. Advocated on universal social republic,

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Speaker 3: municipal autonomy, workers' rights, workers associations, wage abolition, and property equality.

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Speaker 3: Despite Diaz's rise in eighteen seventy seven, he led a

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Speaker 3: present uprising in Sierra Gorda and Planet the Lla Baranca,

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Speaker 3: battling federal forces until eighteen eighty. Despite his defeat and

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Speaker 3: imprisonment in eighteen eighty one, the rebellion persisted. Telacosta's ally,

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Speaker 3: Colonel Albert to Santa Fe, introduced the Lays del Pueblo.

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Speaker 3: Influenced by mcunan's ideas. Though not a purely anarchist manifesto,

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Speaker 3: this document emphasized land distribution, national industry promotion, army suppression,

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Speaker 3: and free education. Stafe argued that true Mexican independence depended

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Speaker 3: on reclaimant stolen lands, a movement which, of course gained

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Speaker 3: traction among the peasants. General Negrete supported Santa Fe's revolutionary efforts,

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Speaker 3: just as he had backed Chavez, Lopez and Sarlacosta earlier.

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Speaker 3: Satafe's resistance against Diaz's dictatorship was more radical than mayor

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Speaker 3: electoral opposition. It aimed at transference sovereignty to local municipalities

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Speaker 3: and land to peasant collectors. However, by the eighteen nineties,

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Speaker 3: Diaz effectively suppressed most worker movements through bribery and repression.

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Speaker 3: While industrial workers and miners fared slightly better than the peasants,

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Speaker 3: wages steadily declined after eighteen ninety eight. Rodocanati left Mexico

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Speaker 3: in eighteen eighty six after giving for two decades of

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Speaker 3: his life to the cause. But it's two decades of

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Speaker 3: so and seeds would eventually flourish in the Mexican Revolution.

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Speaker 3: What will be covering in the next episode. Thanks for

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Speaker 3: tuning in, am Andra Sage. You can follow me on

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Speaker 3: YouTube at Andrewism and patron dot com slash Saint Drew.

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Speaker 3: Thanks again. This is it could happen here. All power

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Speaker 3: to all the people. Please hello and welcome to it

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Speaker 3: could happen here. I'm back with Yeason Davis.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and I'm.

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Speaker 3: Andress Sage or Andrewism on YouTube now. Previously we explored

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Speaker 3: a lesser known chapter in Mexico's radical history before my

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Speaker 3: Gone Before for the Revolution, when a Greek emigre named

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Speaker 3: Plotino Rocanati arrived in the eighteen sixties, convinced that Mexico's

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Speaker 3: indigenous communal traditions could form the basis for a new

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Speaker 3: anarchist society. Through schools, pamphlets, and mutual aid societies. He

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Speaker 3: helped sow the first seeds of anarchist thought on Mexican soil.

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Speaker 3: Some of his students pushed even further and flirted with

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Speaker 3: many bush and streams of anarchism. Even as Portfilio Diazis

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Speaker 3: regime clamped down and anything that challenges dry for order

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Speaker 3: and progress, Rocanati faded from view and many of his

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Speaker 3: students that associates had to go underground for a time,

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Speaker 3: but the ideas would live on like quiet sparks or

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Speaker 3: waiting for the next revolt, and an actual volt would

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Speaker 3: come in nineteen ten, when the Mexican Revolution erupted. By

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Speaker 3: keeping in mind the contexts here, when we talk about revolutions,

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Speaker 3: the focus tends to be on the flashpoints, the gunfire,

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Speaker 3: the slogans, the major figures, and I will do a

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Speaker 3: lot of focus on so of them figures throughout this history.

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Speaker 3: We have to keep in mind the revolutions have roots

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Speaker 3: that run deep, run deep below the surface. The revolutions

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Speaker 3: are often shaped by decades or centuries of injustice, and

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Speaker 3: Mexico's revolution was no exception because for over three decades

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Speaker 3: for Fibio Diaz ruled Mexico with what was basically a

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Speaker 3: velvet glove over an iron fist. He brought railroads in electrification,

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Speaker 3: but also crave crave costs for the rural poor, the

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Speaker 3: indigenous communities, and the working classes. By nineteen ten, thanks

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Speaker 3: to his efforts, almost all the land in Mexico was

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Speaker 3: in private hands. The rural port and our found themselves

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Speaker 3: as peons and haciendas abot those that fled to the

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Speaker 3: city for themselves, proletarianized, made to work at various industries

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Speaker 3: for long hours, low pay, and little protection. Despite appearance

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Speaker 3: stable and efficient and orderly, the system in Mexico was

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Speaker 3: profoundly unjust, and yet many saw it as a model

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Speaker 3: for progress in a region full of instability, a description

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Speaker 3: that seems eerily familiar to the situation that's currently taking

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Speaker 3: place in El Salvador. Beneath the Polish Venaier, tensions were

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Speaker 3: breren workers were organizing journalists who were risking their lives.

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Speaker 3: Teachers and lawyers, and even wealthy landowners began to murmur

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Speaker 3: about the need for reform, and the countryside, those old

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Speaker 3: communal memories refused to die. Even after the land was taken.

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Speaker 3: The land was remembered by the term twentieth century, Giaz

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Speaker 3: approached his eighties with no successor in sight, and the

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Speaker 3: people were getting fedter, which brings us into the first

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Speaker 3: phase of the Mexican Revolution. According to A. Hill Cappaletti,

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Speaker 3: the author of Anarchism in Latin America and the main

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Speaker 3: source of this episode, Francisco I. Madero wasn't quite a

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Speaker 3: revolutionary in all honesty. He just wanted to tweet the

425
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 3: status ko to keep a free market, but banned reelection

426
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 3: of presidents came from money. He was an upper class intellectual,

427
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 3: a believer in parliamentary democracy and in free markets. He

428
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 3: read the Review spirit the religiously. It was a spiritualist journalism,

429
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 3: and he believes in a kind of metaphysical liberalism where

430
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 3: good governance and good intentions could stare history in the

431
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 3: right direction. Madero's party, the Partido Democrata, was formed with

432
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 3: a single claire goal, and in Porthio diazis decades long

433
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 3: grip on power. But to more radical forces like Coricardo

434
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: Flores Margonne and the Partido Liberal Mexicano or PLM, Madero's

435
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 3: vision was nowhere near enough to get fooled by the name.

436
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 3: By the way, the PM had some revolutionary credentials. It

437
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 3: started off as a simple anti clerical, anti editatorial party,

438
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 3: but perhaps with the influence of North American and Spanish

439
00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: immigrant anarchosynicalists, it eventually took on a libertarian character, guided

440
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 3: also in part for the ideological evolution of Malgone himself.

441
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 3: It was neither liberal nor truly a party in the end,

442
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 3: but rather a truly revolutionary libertarian organization. We'll get back

443
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 3: to Macgone's story in Osaka, but the point is where

444
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: mcgone was calling for social revolution, landry distribution, and worker's

445
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 3: control of production. Madero merely wanted electoral reform. He had

446
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 3: no real program for agreerian justice and was quote generally

447
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 3: indifferent to the problems of the Mexican masses, as Capeletti

448
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 3: put it. Still, Madero's nineteen ten campaign electrified all of

449
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 3: those who were unit for change, revolutionaries and reformists alike.

450
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 3: His challenge Todas helped ignite a broader uprising that managed

451
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 3: to bring Madero into power in nineteen eleven. Before we

452
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 3: get into what happened during the Madero presidency, let's go

453
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 3: back in time to follow Ricardo Flora's Macgone story. Macgon

454
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 3: was Born in eighteen seventy three in the village of

455
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 3: San Antonio, Iloxo Chi, then in Osaka, his roots straddled

456
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 3: both indigenous and Mestizo heritage. As a law students in

457
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: Mexico City, he found himself swept into the tide of

458
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 3: anti government agitation. Before he even toned twenty, he was

459
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 3: jailed for the first time. He joined the radical press

460
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 3: in eighteen ninety three with El Democrat and anti Diaz people.

461
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 3: The regime quickly snuffed out, but he wasn't deterred. In

462
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 3: nineteen hundred he co founded Regeneracion, the publication that would

463
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: become the voice of the Mexican left in the twentieth century.

464
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 3: It was while behind bars, where he often found himself,

465
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 3: that Macgone encountered the ideas that would shape his life's work.

466
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 3: Thanks to the library of liberal landowner Camillo Ariaga, he

467
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 3: read the writings of Kropotkin and Malichester, and through those

468
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 3: texts crystallized his anarchist vision. Now, even though Magone's ideology

469
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 3: incubated quietly in his early political life, it didn't stay

470
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 3: buried for law as his conflicts of the diazre intensified. So

471
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: truly the radicalism of his actions. He edited L Ejo

472
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 3: del Aquisote, a satirical rag that earned him yet another

473
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 3: stint in prison, and after his release of nineteen oh four,

474
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 3: Magroun fled to Texas where he re launched Geracion with

475
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 3: renewed purpose. By nineteen oh five, the paper helped spark

476
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 3: the creation of the Patido Liberal and the Hicano or PLM, which,

477
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 3: as I said, wasn't much of a political party as

478
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: it was a radical organ though it did have some

479
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 3: reformist demands mixed it. They were trying to soften their

480
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: language at times to appeal to conservative sympathizers of reform.

481
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 3: Away from the ADS, the PMS sought the abolition of

482
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 3: the military tribunals, free secular education, workers rights at the

483
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 3: eight hour workday minimum wage, and the expropriation of idle lands.

484
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 3: In short, it went further than nineteen seventeen constitution that

485
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 3: would come a decade later. I could be seen as

486
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 3: the crystallization of many of the Mexican Revolution's most popular aims.

487
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 3: Margon and the PLM established alliances across borders, particularly among

488
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 3: the industrial workers of the world, but that put a

489
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 3: target on Magone's back. For both Mexican and US authorities.

490
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 3: You already know they can't be having solid darity like that.

491
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 3: The Pinkertons rolled up, backed in part by Diaz himself,

492
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 3: and they were on Magon's tail constantly, even ended up

493
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: as far north as Canada just trying to escape their

494
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 3: constant harassment. But despite the repression, the momentum could not

495
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: be killed. Between nineteen or six and ninety oh eight,

496
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 3: the PLM helped organize a string of strikes and uprisings.

497
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 3: The most infamous was the canear Nea copper strike. Mexican

498
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 3: miners were paid stop vation wages while their American counterparts

499
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 3: earned double for the same work. When the miners struck

500
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 3: for fair pay and better conditions, they were met with

501
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 3: deadly force. The rebellion that followed so American rangers in

502
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 3: Mexican troops massacre more than two hundred people thousands were jailed.

503
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 3: Another uprising ignited in Rio Blanco, where textile workers already

504
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 3: paid a pittance, organized with the leadership of Jose Nierra,

505
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 3: a student of Magon. When negotiations failed and repression ramped up,

506
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 3: the workers responded, not with another petition, both insurrection on

507
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 3: January seventh, nineteen oh seven, they stormed the mill, freed prisoners,

508
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: cut wires, and declared open rebellion. The state responded with

509
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 3: a bloodbath. Entire families were dragged from their homes and executed.

510
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 3: Another one of the uprisings was a peasant revolter, began

511
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 3: in nineteen oh six in Akayukan and spread through Tuxtlas,

512
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: Mine Titlan and Tavasco. It was crushed, of course, in

513
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 3: nineteen oh eight and Viscas, though their plans had been

514
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 3: leaked to the authorities, revolutionaries had a firefight with police

515
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 3: and freed a town jail. Just two days later, in

516
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 3: Las Vegas, other students of Magon were fighting for justice.

517
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 3: Another set of gorillas of rose in Palomas, but they failed.

518
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 3: Yet another insurrection happened in Via the lead Yucatan, and

519
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 3: they suffered summary executions. And all those events, all those

520
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 3: small revolutionary bands challenging the states, they failed, but they

521
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: emboldened the dream of a different world with their will

522
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 3: to act. Magone was jailed again in nineteen oh seven,

523
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 3: but it wasn't over for him yet. And I really

524
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 3: don't like to romanticize, you know, this idea of this uprisings,

525
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 3: that they feel, but you know, they're still inspiring. We

526
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 3: don't want to go too fun to that where you know,

527
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 3: your self sacrifice for self sacrifice sake. But I think

528
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 3: it's important to point out that there were multiple failed

529
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 3: attempts before the successful uprising that ushered in the Mexican Revolution.

530
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 3: It wasn't you know, a first time successful attempt, and

531
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 3: by the time Malgon was at least from prison in

532
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 3: nineteen ten, the revolution had already begun to burn across Mexico,

533
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 3: and that is in part in thanks to the efforts

534
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 3: of those uprisings. Even though those individual uprisings failed, the

535
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 3: Catalan immigrant Amadeo Ferres pumped up this energy in nineteen

536
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 3: eleven with El Tipograph for Mexicano, yet another newspaper with

537
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 3: a fierce anarcho cynicalist spirit, meant to mobilize urban workers.

538
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 3: At the same time, old anarchist typographers were not only

539
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 3: printing their message, they were forming unions like the Union

540
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 3: de Canteras Mexicanos. In mid nineteen twelve, Juan Francisco Moncaliano

541
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 3: arrived from Qure and quickly rallied a diverse group of

542
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 3: workers into Grupo LuSE set on establishing a progressive education platform,

543
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 3: al Francisco Ferrer. By September nineteen twelve, these unions and

544
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 3: Grupo Loos united to form La Cassa Delbrero, forging a

545
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 3: distinctly anarcho synicalist identity. The organized lectures built libraries of

546
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 3: classic anarchist works and launched a new bi weekly called Lucha,

547
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 3: all while energizing a massive May Day rally in nineteen thirteen,

548
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 3: where twenty eight thousand workers rallied. Like Margon, these radicals

549
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 3: saw through the hollow promises of Madero's democracy. Voting for

550
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 3: a new president wouldn't free the peasantry. The legislative seats

551
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 3: wouldn't redistribute land. No congress, no matter how liberal, would

552
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 3: ever voluntarily dismantle the system that fed it. For them,

553
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 3: revolution was no less than put in land and production

554
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 3: in the hands of the people. No bosses, no landlords,

555
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 3: no masters, just workers organizing life on their own terms.

556
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 3: Madero's revolution, if we could even be called that, had

557
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 3: mobilized peasants, workers, and radicals. But that moderate phase was

558
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 3: about to end because once seated as president, Madero leaned

559
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 3: heavily on old elites. He really siphoned energy away from

560
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 3: genuine social change. With that reformance to push that he

561
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 3: was doing a move that sounds all through familiar, but

562
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 3: there was refusals in oct meaningful change lost in his

563
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 3: allies very quickly. Figures like Pasqual, Orosco and even Emiliano Zapata,

564
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 3: who had initially supported the rebellion against Diaz, became dissillusion

565
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 3: sowil Madero governed, the PLM continued its fight now against

566
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 3: the emergent new regime in northern Mexico. PLM aligned forces

567
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 3: initially rose alongside Madero's, but they did not make common

568
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 3: cause with him. When strategic positions and hiwawa were lost

569
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 3: with the middle class and Orosco sided with Madero, the

570
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 3: Mogonists turned their attention elsewhere. The next target was Baja California.

571
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 3: In early nineteen eleven. They began seasoned towns Mexicali, Los Alcodonis, Tecate,

572
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 3: and finally Tijouanna, seeking to establish a libertarian society, a

573
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 3: model for what they called a free America. But the

574
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 3: backlash was swift. American, British and French businesses owned pretty

575
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 3: much all of Baja California, landowners and newspaper mogules in California, USA,

576
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 3: which were often the same people panicked and ended up

577
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 3: smearing the mcgonists as secessionists trying to handle from Mexican

578
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 3: land to the US. In truth, as mcgonn wrote in Regeneracion,

579
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 3: does Baja California belong to Mexico. It does not, is

580
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 3: under the control of foreign capital. Mexicans owned nothing of it.

581
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 3: The PLM's campaign was not about taking Mexico apart. It

582
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 3: was about reclaiming it from the hands of foreign elites.

583
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 3: Nothing less than land and liberty, as Capelletti puts it. Quote.

584
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 3: On the contrary, mcgone's goal was nothing other than a

585
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 3: classless and stateless libertarian society that will provide the archetype

586
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 3: and pointed departure for the Mexican and World revolutionia end quote.

587
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 3: The downfall of the Baja California campaign came in the

588
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 3: hands of bourgeois Champion Madero, backed to where the US

589
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 3: government and capitalists. By mid nineteen eleven, the mcgonists uprising

590
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 3: in Maja California had effectively been extinguished, yet the saga

591
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 3: didn't end there. On the fourteenth of June and nineteen eleven,

592
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 3: magone and three of US associates were arrested, tried in

593
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 3: Los Angeles, and mcgone himself was sentenced to McNeil Island

594
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 3: Prison in Washington, State of Faith. He endured until nineteen fourteen,

595
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 3: which meant that macgone wouldn't be present in Mexico for

596
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 3: the death of one of his biggest ops. Since Madero

597
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 3: failed to gain the support of radicals or secure the

598
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 3: loyalty of reactionaries, the conservative military overthrew and assassinated him

599
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: in stolen Victoriano Huerta into power in nineteen twoty, and

600
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 3: just like that, the so called moderate phase the Mexican

601
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 3: Revolution ended in blood. Quiet's dictator ship tried to imact

602
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 3: the clock to the Porphyrian Eraqueta ruled with military force

603
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 3: and repressure, the usual stuff, persecuting labor organizers, shutting down

604
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 3: radical spaces, deporting for an activists, jail and dissenters, murdering people.

605
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: Crackdowns eventually hit La Cassa de Lobrero's publications and destroyed

606
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 3: the anarchist library. But out of this repression emerged a

607
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 3: new tactic. They basically said, you know, you could burn

608
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 3: our books. That's fine, don't you have to do. We're

609
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 3: not going to stop us from spreading our message. They

610
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 3: established grassroots orators, the Tribuna Roha, who took the revolutionary

611
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 3: message directly to the working classes, given speeches where they

612
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 3: were at and sharing the message even without access to literature.

613
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 3: By May nineteen fourteen, a new people in Antipascion Obrera

614
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 3: was launched. Do it too felt praise the regime's brutality. Thankfully,

615
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 3: the regime wouldn't last long because Ptor's power didn't go unchallenged.

616
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: From the north, Venustiano Carranza and the Constitutionalists rose to

617
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 3: oppose him, claiming to defend the Madero's legacy. From the south,

618
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 3: Emiliano Zapata refused to EXI accept any government that ignore

619
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,879
Speaker 3: the demands of landless peasants, and throughout the country armed

620
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 3: struggle reignited, which brings us to Emiliano Zapata himself. He

621
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 3: was doing his own thing politically, but he was inspired

622
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 3: in part for the anarchist supporters and Margon. His ideology

623
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 3: was rooted in Nikalpui, the collective land systems of his

624
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 3: condigous ancestors. He eventually adopted the slogan Tierra Ileritad and

625
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 3: rallied behind the Plan de Ayala, demanding land redistribution and

626
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 3: local self governance. He had little tolerance for political maneuverent

627
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 3: He saw the false promises of figures like Cuerta and Kranza.

628
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 3: For Zapata, revolutionist thought about elections or modernization. It was

629
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 3: what given land back. That's really all he cared about.

630
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 3: In contrast, as the wariotis Mario, there was Pancho Villa.

631
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 3: He was a charismatic northern general and a populist who

632
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 3: worked with and against Kranza. As Magon described him, Zapata

633
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 3: delivered riches to their true owners, the poor via executes

634
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 3: the proletarian who takes a piece of bread end coot.

635
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 3: That both were opposed to Carranza. Their goals, strategies, and

636
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 3: ethics were far apart. Like I said, mariotas warrior. Queta

637
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 3: didn't last long. As I mentioned, he was ousted by

638
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 3: nineteen fourteen, so just about a year of being in

639
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 3: power and being a violent dictator. And after predator fell,

640
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 3: Perustiano Caranza rose to fill the vacuue. Like I said,

641
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 3: he claimed to be continuing Madero's legacy, and his vision

642
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 3: of Mexico was just as top down. He wasn't exactly

643
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 3: fond of anarchists or the radical left in general, but

644
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 3: faced with pressure from these appatistas in the south and

645
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 3: VI's forces in the north, he courted his lab organizations

646
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 3: like Cassa de la Brero Mundial offer gestures of support,

647
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 3: a few favorable labor reforms, and even physical space like

648
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 3: giving them the Jesuit College Santa Brigida as headquarters. In return,

649
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 3: Kranza hoped to build a loyal base of organized workers,

650
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 3: integrate them into his constitutional army, and neutralize the more

651
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 3: radical strains of revolution. And I'm sorry to say that

652
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 3: it partially worked. He was able to buy off some

653
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 3: of these workers. While this alliance gave La Casa de

654
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,959
Speaker 3: Lobrero's space to organize workers throughout the country and ramp

655
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 3: up educational and prostatizing efforts, much like what would take

656
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 3: place in Spain years later, the anarchists began to lose

657
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 3: their anarchist roots from the collaboration. Instead of back in

658
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 3: the battle. In February nineteen fifteen, Lacassa signed a pact

659
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 3: with the Constitutionalist forces and created quote unquote Red battalions

660
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 3: within Kranza's army. But although Lacassa expanded its influence and

661
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 3: managed amount strikes among miners, teachers, drivers, bakers, oil workers,

662
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 3: textile workers, carpenters, button makers, and barbers in nineteen fifteen,

663
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 3: in response to the economic pressures of inflation and unemployment.

664
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 3: By early nineteen sixteen, their government allies were cracking down

665
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 3: on them. Not long after hiring the Red Battalions. They

666
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 3: fired the Red Battalion, so they shut down La CASA's offices.

667
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 3: They sent key figures to jail. In response, the worker's

668
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 3: movement held a national congress in Veracruz, and out of

669
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 3: this emerged a new labor federation built on anarchist syniclust principles,

670
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 3: committed not to capturing power but to dismantle it, the

671
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 3: Confederacion del Trabajo de Larion and Hicana. In May nineteen sixteen,

672
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 3: a general strike erupted in protest of the imprisonment of

673
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 3: La Caassa's leadership and to demand urgent economic relief. While

674
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 3: the strike was an immediate success, its ease led many

675
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 3: young militans to believe that change could come through a

676
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 3: benevolent state, notably Luis Morones, who would later lead to

677
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:56,240
Speaker 3: Confederacion Nano Prera Mexicana was CROM signed agreements with Caranza's government.

678
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 3: Matters intensified ten months later when a second strike broker

679
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 3: due to lowpe. In response, Caranza ordered mounted police to

680
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 3: break up assemblies and declared martial law. The strike was crushed,

681
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 3: its committee suspended all activities, and one prominent leader was

682
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 3: nearly executed before his sentence was finally commuted. La Cassa

683
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 3: shut down and the strike failed, but the anarchists endured.

684
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 3: By mid nineteen seventeen, new groups like Loose and several

685
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 3: local cassas had reappeared throughout the country. However, internal debates

686
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 3: culminated in the October nineteen seventeen National Workers Congress, where

687
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 3: reformist forces led by Luis Moronees properly marginalized the anarchists,

688
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 3: set in the stage for the rise of the CROM

689
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 3: and a more moderate pro management approach aligned with of

690
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 3: All People the American Federation of Labor the AFL. Caranza's

691
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 3: crowning achievement came in that same year with the signing

692
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 3: of the Constitution of nineteen seventeen on People. It was

693
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 3: progressive land reform, limited churish power, labor protections. But to

694
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 3: many revolutionaries, including Magon, this wasn't the revolution fulfilled. Far

695
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 3: from it. It was a revolution managed their wireless dreams

696
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 3: trimmed down to a policy. Even its better reforms were

697
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 3: hardly enforced. But with the Constitution of nineteen seventeen, Cranzer

698
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 3: could still claim legitimacy, he could claim progress, and he

699
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 3: could claim that the revolution was over. But what happened

700
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 3: to the revolutionaries. Zapata was still fighting for land in

701
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 3: the South, but Caranza would assassinate him in By nineteen nineteen,

702
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 3: Magone was in prison in the USA, denouncing the betrayal

703
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 3: from behind bars. Workers were still struggling for real power

704
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 3: in their work places, and the vast majority of rural

705
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 3: Mexicans remained poor, dispossessed, and dissillusion In case you're wondering

706
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 3: what happened to Macgone in nineteen sixteen, he was jail

707
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 3: in the US until a group of exiled anarchists led

708
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 3: by Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman paid his bond. That

709
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 3: that feels like a cameo or crossover episode of some kind, right,

710
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 3: And then in nineteen seventeen, the year of the new Constitution,

711
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 3: he was back in jail again for speaking out against

712
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 3: the First World War and calling for a social revolutionary

713
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 3: war instead. He was sentenced to twenty years and his

714
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,720
Speaker 3: health deteriorated steadily. He wasn't a fan of care anzer

715
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 3: at Tall. He called him a strike breaker, an assassin,

716
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 3: and a wolf in sheep's clothing. When a Karanza's government

717
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 3: offered him a pension, he said, quote all money obtained

718
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 3: by the stage represents the sweat, the anguish, and sacrifice

719
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 3: of workers. If this money came directly from workers, I

720
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 3: would gladly and even proudly accept it because they are

721
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 3: my brothers. But when it comes to the invention of

722
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,959
Speaker 3: the state, after being compelled from the people the money,

723
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 3: you would only burn my hands and fill my heart

724
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 3: with remorse. End quote. So long story short, he didn't

725
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 3: accept the money. When the US said they might let

726
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,240
Speaker 3: him go if he said sorry and petitioned for a pardon,

727
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 3: he said, in many words, hell no. Among his more

728
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 3: beautiful words, he said, quote repentance. I have not exploited

729
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 3: the sweat, anguish, fatigue, and labor of others. I have

730
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 3: not oppressed a single soul. I have nothing to repent

731
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 3: for my life has been lived without my having acquired

732
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 3: any wealth, power or glory, when I could have gotten

733
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 3: these three things very easily, But I do not regret it.

734
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 3: Wealth power and GLORI are only one by trampling others' rights.

735
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 3: My conscience is at peace, for it knows that under

736
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: my convict's garb beats an honest heart. So he died

737
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 3: in his jail cell in nineteen twenty two, possibly assassinated. Zapata,

738
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 3: like I said, was assassinated by Cranzer in nineteen nineteen,

739
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 3: and Kranz himself was assassinated in nineteen twenty in case

740
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 3: who were keeping truck, both of Magone's major ops. He

741
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 3: ended up outliving right. He outlived Madero and then he

742
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 3: outlived Caranzer, but he still died in jail, which is,

743
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 3: you know, kind of tragic. But Kranza's successor, Alvaro Obregon,

744
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 3: was both friendly with reformists in the crom and not

745
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 3: as hostile to the anarchists as Caranza, which gave the

746
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 3: anarchists an opportunity to regroup. Strikes built up across the

747
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 3: country miners, oil workers, textile workers, dock workers, and more.

748
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 3: Some sixty five thousand workers in July nineteen twenty alone.

749
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 3: Out of this momentum came the Ferracion Communista del Proletariado

750
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 3: Mexicano or FCPR. It was an ideologically mixed group but

751
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 3: leaned in an arctic direction and starkly contrasted itself with

752
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 3: the reformist ways the CROM and the international ally the AFL.

753
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 3: The FCPM went on testa wish the Confederacieneral de Tabajadores

754
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,240
Speaker 3: or CGT in nineteen twenty one as a direct challenge

755
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 3: to CROM. They were fully declaring their independence from state

756
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 3: and party. Their focus was on class struggle. The Mexican

757
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,439
Speaker 3: government flew to his socialist language from time to time,

758
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 3: but the anarchists saw through the charade. They called out

759
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 3: that so called socialist light government's deportation of anarchists and socialists.

760
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 3: They even called Maroney the guy who started ZROM, Mexico's Mussolini.

761
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 3: It's an interesting insult. The CGT is still against the

762
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 3: Moscow backed Third International and instead allied with councilists like

763
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 3: Rosa Luxembourg and Anton Panacoec. They also formed a specifically

764
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 3: anarchist section within the group, meant to play the same

765
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 3: role played by the FAI for the Spanish CGT. The

766
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 3: Mexican CGT backed strikes, including in nineteen twenty one when

767
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 3: they backed a real workers' strike against US companies, and

768
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 3: in nineteen twenty two they expelled the CGT leaders who

769
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 3: had fluted with electoral politics, reiterating their anti party stance.

770
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 3: They would not allow themselves to be retaken and capitulated

771
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 3: to reformist aims. That same year, media protests turned into

772
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 3: confrontations when right wing thugs kill the demonstrator's child in

773
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,959
Speaker 3: front of the US consolate, and they didn't stop there.

774
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 3: Anarchists in the CGT helped organize tenant strikes in Mexico

775
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 3: City and Vera Cruz. They led general strikes and textile

776
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 3: mills and rallied against steed violence. They protested in solidarity

777
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,959
Speaker 3: with international struggles from Spain to Boston, from the murder

778
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 3: of Salvador Sigwi to the gelin of Saco and Vencetti.

779
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 3: They also to deal with efforts to defame them through misinformation,

780
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 3: such as the accusation that they were embeztling workers' funds.

781
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 3: Throughout the early nineteen twenties you had some new libertarian

782
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 3: publications jumping out. You had Verberrojo, you had Lahu, my dad, Sachiitario,

783
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 3: Tierra Libre, Alba, Anakika, and so on. And by nineteen

784
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 3: twenty four, under President Kayas, who followed the assassinated Obrigon,

785
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 3: the tides began to shift. Cays was more hostile to

786
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 3: the anarchists than Abrigon and openly favored CRON. He gave

787
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 3: Moronees a cabinet post past lawst undermined CGT organizing and

788
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 3: escalated repression. The CGT held its ground, organizing general strikes,

789
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 3: occupying textile mills, confronting the police, expanded into the countryside

790
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 3: all their usual stuff. They fought for short term relief

791
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 3: and long term revolution. By nineteen twenty six, CGT had

792
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 3: grown into a federation of one hundred and fifty seven

793
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 3: affiliated groups, unions, syndicates, occurring communities all included. And yet

794
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 3: by the late nineteen twenties things started to free. The

795
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 3: CROM was declining due to the attachments to a government

796
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 3: that was no longer conciliatory to their political ambitions, and

797
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 3: the CGT couldn't capitalize on that decline of the CROM.

798
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:01,840
Speaker 3: The government sought to marginalize them entirely. Thousands of former

799
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 3: CROM members joined the CGT, while the CGT itself began

800
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 3: to make some slides toward concession and reformer zone. And

801
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 3: so it reached a point where they were calling themselves anarchists.

802
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 3: But the anarchism was nowhere never and yet anarchism didn't die.

803
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 3: It morphed, it migrated, and it regrouped. After the fall

804
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 3: of Spain in nineteen thirty nine, exiled members the CNT

805
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 3: and FAI arrived in Mexico, reinvigorating the scene for a time.

806
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 3: They published Tierai Libertad, built new organizations, and kept the

807
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 3: memory and the fight alive. A few anarchists and impulses managed

808
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 3: to english within the Mexican Communist Party into the early

809
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 3: nineteen thirties as well. At least according to Kirkschaffer, President

810
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,720
Speaker 3: Cais ended up founding what became the Institutional Revolutionary Party,

811
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 3: a contradiction if I ever heard it, And they basically

812
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 3: ran the show in Mexico for seventy one years straight,

813
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 3: from nineteen twenty nine to two thousand. They administered co

814
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 3: created the conditions. They were both the NEOs apatisms. In

815
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four, they are anarchists, as they have been

816
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 3: very clear to state, but maybe they'll get a two

817
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 3: part in the future going into their history in more depth.

818
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:18,320
Speaker 3: The history of anarchism in Mexico has been quite the story,

819
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 3: I must say, and with that we've reached the end

820
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:26,280
Speaker 3: of that classical history. Its modern history is still being written,

821
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 3: still being told. But this is the end of our

822
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 3: exploration for now, not as of Mexico's anarchist history, but

823
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 3: of this entire series of anarchism in Latin America. I

824
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 3: joked about baking an episode about Quebec's anarchism scene, but

825
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,720
Speaker 3: that may remain a joke for now. We've justur neyed

826
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 3: a very long way together, from the Andes to Buenos Aires,

827
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 3: to Montevideo to South Battlo all over. We've seen how

828
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 3: long before the name anarchism arrived in Latin America's shows

829
00:53:56,080 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 3: people who resisting hierarchy through indigenous forms of autonomy, African

830
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 3: maroon communities, and peasant traditions of land sharing and reciprocity.

831
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 3: We saw how these anarchic and anarchist instincts met new

832
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 3: ideas genuinely and intentionally anarchist ideas coming from prudin Bacunin

833
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 3: and Kropotkin brought over in pamphlets and in the minds

834
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 3: of exiles and immigrants in Mexico, those forces took on

835
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 3: a revolutionary scale. Roda Kanati planted the seed, Macgone amplified

836
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 3: its voice. The workers, the peasants, the students, they all

837
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 3: gave it their all, their fire, And even when that

838
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 3: fire was smothered by reformists, by nationalists, by reactionaries, by capitalists,

839
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 3: by the bullets and the bribe, it never truly went out.

840
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 3: Across the Americas, these movements rarely one in the traditional sense.

841
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 3: They were often betrayed, suppressed, and erased from history. But

842
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 3: although anarchy was not achieved, anarchists and the anarchist idea

843
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 3: will survive. Anarchist thought is radically resilient, and it never

844
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 3: really disappears, and usually just goes underground or into the margins,

845
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 3: or into new forms, from student collectives to feminist organizations

846
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 3: to squads to ecological struggles, inspiring movements that aren't necessarily anarchists,

847
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 3: but lean in a direction that questions some of the

848
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 3: familiar patterns of authority. Thank you for walking this journey

849
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 3: with me. I've been Andrew Saige You can find me

850
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 3: on YouTube at Andrewism. Support the work over our patreon

851
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 3: dot com slash change threw. All sources, citations and further

852
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 3: reading can be found in the show notes. This has

853
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 3: been It could happen here. All power to all the people. Peace.

854
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 6: Welcome to the war update and update about war. I'm

855
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 6: your host Miya Wong with the is is James and Robert.

856
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 5: War never changes, et cetera, et cetera.

857
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, except for Yeah, I mean all the time changes.

858
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, except for all the changes.

859
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

860
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 5: I think it's a line from the film.

861
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean the most important part doesn't change, which

862
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 2: is most things in proper place at right time, right.

863
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 2: That's that's that's what determines war winning. But the things

864
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 2: that matter are what change.

865
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah. Also what doesn't change not great fun for

866
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:43,959
Speaker 5: the most part, and non enjoyable way to spend your time.

867
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 2: Not enjoyable except for for the chunk of people who

868
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 2: tend to make most of the calls.

869
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, enjoyable a lot. Yeah, enjoyable. You're an old

870
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 5: guy in a big house.

871
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 7: Yeah.

872
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 6: So we're gonna be talking about three wars. Yeah, I

873
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 6: think we're going to. We're gonna lead off with the

874
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 6: India Pakistan war, and then we're gonna do the other

875
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 6: two wars in some order you want to do you

876
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 6: want to announce the other two wars.

877
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, we're gonna talk about the end of the of

878
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 5: the armed conflict between the PKK and the Turkey State

879
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 5: maybe mm hmm.

880
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll be talking about Yemen a little bit.

881
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:24,919
Speaker 8: Yeah, man, Yeah, let's let's Oh god, let's do this. Okay,

882
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 8: So good news missed that. Look, we do have good news,

883
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 8: which is that we have not all died in the

884
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 8: nuclear fires. I know there are some of you for

885
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 8: whom you were very disappointed, but we're all still here

886
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 8: for better or for worse, I mean for better. Like

887
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 8: I'm very glad we didn't all die in nuclear fire. Yeah,

888
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 8: so let's let's let's talk about the recent war between

889
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 8: India and Pakistan. Lasted about four days, so all right. Well,

890
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 8: we talked about this a little bit before. The very

891
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 8: basic sort of elements of this conflict. We talked about

892
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 8: partition on the show before when India sort of gained

893
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 8: independence from the British ere it split into Indian Pakistan.

894
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 8: Millions died, horrific sort of conflict, people killing each other

895
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 8: like mass migrations across the borders.

896
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 6: Very very very unstable set of borders get set up

897
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 6: that change a bunch of times. And one of the

898
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 6: aspects of this sort of whole thing is that Kashmir

899
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 6: was supposed to be this independent state and then through

900
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 6: an extremely convluted process that I am again once again

901
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 6: pushing off to another episode with like actual good experts

902
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 6: on this, because this is a very very convoluted thing.

903
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 6: But the short version of it basically is that this

904
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 6: series is sort of escalating conflicts, end ends basically in

905
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 6: a short war and then kasher being split into between

906
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 6: India and Pakistan, where like about a third roughly of

907
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 6: Kashmir ends up under Pakistani control and then about two

908
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 6: thirds ends up under Indian control. Now there's an agreement

909
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 6: signed by sort of Kashmir's ruler at the time to

910
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 6: let India like annex like two thirds of Kashmir or

911
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 6: so the actual dividing line basically ends up being like

912
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 6: where the armies stopped. You know, it changes over the years.

913
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 6: But the important thing here, right is that Kashmir is

914
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 6: supposed to have had an independence referendum, right that was like, yeah,

915
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 6: the deal now in a move that is, like Genny Winey,

916
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 6: even more stunning than the ship that, like Indonesia pulled

917
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 6: in West Papua so ins Papua. Right, like Indonesia pulls

918
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 6: a like fake independence referendum here, they've never even done that, Like,

919
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 6: they never pretended to have the referendum, and.

920
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 4: They're supposed to have.

921
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 5: It's like a sub assad level attempt at democracy, you know.

922
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, Yeah, they're just like nope, each ship like you're

923
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 6: you're you're basically a colony now now as part of

924
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 6: this deal, right, Kashmir God a pretty substantial amount of autonomy.

925
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 6: I'm gonna read there. There's actually there's a very good

926
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:07,919
Speaker 6: Jacobin one of the rare good Jacobin articles, which usually

927
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 6: tend to be the ones written like not by the

928
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 6: American Jocobin writers.

929
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm freelancer who made fifty US dollars for writings. Yeah,

930
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 5: and that's their right to goun up.

931
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is written by Irish k And I'm going

932
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 6: to quote here from this article. Quote central to the

933
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 6: instrument of a session. It's the document that the ruler

934
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 6: of Kashmir signed is sort of Likedhan Kashmir ver to India.

935
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 6: Quote which the constitutional provision of Article three seventy, which

936
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 6: assured the Kashmiri people autonomy over all matters besides those

937
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 6: pretending to defense, external affairs, and communications. The article was

938
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 6: supposed to be temporary and provisional because there was a

939
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 6: promise of a referendum by which the people of Kashmir

940
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 6: would decide their own political fate to remain part of India,

941
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 6: to join up with Pakistan, or become an independent state.

942
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 6: But as you've already mentioned, this has never happened. I mean,

943
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 6: they didn't even do a sham one. It just literally

944
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 6: didn't ever happen. And India has just been imposing its

945
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 6: rule in Kashmir ever since. And I mean it's also

946
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 6: worth pointing out that Pakistan has also been imposing its

947
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 6: rule on like it's part of Kashmir. But the Indian

948
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 6: occupation has become increasingly brutal basically since its starting, it's

949
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 6: just continued to get worse and worse, and it is

950
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 6: sort of a full blown military occupation, right there's just

951
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 6: like a bunch of fucking Indian troops in the street.

952
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 6: And as it becomes clear that India is like never

953
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 6: going to let Kashmir be free or just even let

954
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 6: the Kashmi people decide what they want. Milton struggles en

955
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 6: sews and as Kate points out, it's originally spearheaded by

956
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 6: the secular Jamu Kashmir Liberation Front, and this group has

957
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 6: just sort of wiped out because it wanted an independent Kashmir.

958
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:49,600
Speaker 6: And this was convenient to neither the Indian or the

959
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 6: Pakistani government because Pakistan and Pakistan talks about this a

960
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 6: lot internactually, like one of their sort of international political

961
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 6: things is like, yeah, we want free Kashmir. But it's like, no,

962
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 6: you don't. You want Kashmir to be part of Pakistan.

963
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 6: And that is not the same thing is it being free?

964
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 4: Like very clear.

965
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 6: About this, yeah, and so and so Pakistan's engagement towards

966
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 6: Kashmir has always been about this, right, It's always been

967
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 6: about making sure that there wouldn't be any kind of

968
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 6: sort of independent Kashmir. And so both India and Pakistan

969
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 6: crush this sort of secular Kashmiri independence group that have

970
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 6: been spearheading a lot of this, and over time Pakistan is.

971
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 4: Sort of through it.

972
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 6: There are a complicated series of things has sorted a

973
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 6: lot of control over a lot of these groups or

974
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 6: has intelligence relations with them. Is SI kind of notoriously

975
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 6: works with militant groups like the I. S I is

976
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 6: the group in Afghanistan that like really full on did

977
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 6: the thing that everyone thinks that the US and the

978
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 6: Saudi sort of did in in terms of like funding

979
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 6: the worst parts of Lujahadeen, like that was really mostly

980
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 6: Pakistani intelligence. Yeah, So, like they have a lot of

981
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 6: relations with a bunch of people who absolutely fucking suck,

982
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 6: and they've you know, sort of used a lot of

983
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 6: these a lot of these groups as like a way

984
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 6: to sort of poke a stick in India and also

985
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 6: you know, like attempt to obtain their sort of like

986
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 6: domestic political goals of like weakening India for the real

987
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 6: sort of internal stability, which we'll come back to later, well,

988
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 6: the interior's ability of like military of the power of

989
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 6: the military in Pakistan, and also like taking the rest

990
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 6: of Kashmir. Yeah, and so this has caused a really

991
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 6: horrific conflict in which the people of Kashmir have suffered

992
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 6: a bunch of horrible shit. In twenty nineteen, that autonomy,

993
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 6: you know again that the autonomy that was the carrot

994
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 6: in order to like join in order in exchange for

995
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 6: cashmer joining India, right, and I supposedly getting this referendum,

996
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 6: like the like the carrot was supposed to be that

997
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 6: they're supposed to have an unbelievable amount of internal autonomy.

998
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 6: And in twenty nineteen, it had been being eroted for

999
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 6: a long time, but in twenty nineteen, India is just

1000
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 6: like each hit fuck you, it's gone, now have fun.

1001
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 6: And this causes a bunch of protests, It causes Milton

1002
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 6: Group attacks, it causes a genuinely astonishing crackdown. I mean,

1003
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 6: like they they turned off the phones in the internet

1004
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 6: in Cashmir. The Indian government just like did this and

1005
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 6: it became unbelievably difficult to get any information out. They

1006
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 6: arrested unbelievable numbers of people. There are I mean just

1007
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 6: absolutely horrifying accounts of the ship that Indian security forces

1008
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 6: were doing to people. You know what I mean, Like

1009
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 6: this is this is this is a colonial occupation, right,

1010
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 6: The things that happened in the colonial occupation. They fucking

1011
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 6: torture people, they kill people, they like they rape people.

1012
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 6: It's it's really fucked And during this as as more

1013
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 6: sort of like militant attacks rupt like in India, does

1014
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 6: the first version of its well not the first version,

1015
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 6: but it does. It does like it launches a series

1016
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 6: of attacks on southern Pakistan and this is kind of

1017
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 6: you know, there were escalations of it a couple of

1018
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 6: years ago, but you know, the sort of big deal

1019
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 6: this time was insurgents and it's we have a group

1020
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 6: that claimed responsibility for it. It's still I don't know,

1021
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 6: it's still unclear the extent to which packs INNY government

1022
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 6: was actually involved. There's the whole thing with this. But

1023
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 6: a bunch a bunch of sort of insurgents killed like

1024
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 6: twenty five Hindu tourists in a KASHMIRII tourist town and

1025
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 6: it's really fucking horrifying. This immediately causes this just unhinged

1026
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,880
Speaker 6: wave of Indi nationalism, like you do for sort of

1027
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 6: nationalism in India. We talked last time about all of

1028
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 6: these Indian government officials like literally talking about quote in

1029
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 6: Israel style final solution to Kashmir. So a bunch of

1030
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 6: very very horrific shit is happening. Yeah, and then India

1031
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 6: decides that it's going to start launching attacks across the border.

1032
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 6: There's like the immediate small arms fire, there's missile strikes,

1033
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 6: there's drone attack, and then as this sort of escalates,

1034
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 6: India launches attacks on three Pakistani air bases and again

1035
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 6: like they hit an air base that is in the

1036
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 6: city where Pakistan's Army General headquarters is, which is a

1037
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 6: kind of provocation that has not happened since like the

1038
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 6: last time these two countries were just straight up at war.

1039
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:25,200
Speaker 6: And you know, like that could have killed us all.

1040
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 6: It didn't, but it absolutely could have, and it was

1041
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 6: also just horrifying for it. And it's worth pointing this

1042
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 6: out right. The people who are getting killed on both

1043
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 6: sides of the border here, like ur Kashmiri's right, because

1044
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 6: like their home has been occupied by these two powers.

1045
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 6: When when India and Pakistan go to war, the people

1046
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,440
Speaker 6: who die on both sides are ar kashmiris right, who

1047
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:52,760
Speaker 6: are being killed by two states who decided, fuck you,

1048
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:54,520
Speaker 6: we get to control your fate, We get to be

1049
01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 6: the people who fucking occupy your land and then claim

1050
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 6: to be the people who represent you. And you know,

1051
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 6: the civilian toll of this is fucking horrifying. There's a

1052
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 6: bunch of a bunch of civilians are killed. People spend

1053
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 6: a huge amount of time cowering in these like horrifying

1054
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:14,440
Speaker 6: overcrowded bunkers. There's a good sort of BBC report on

1055
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 6: this of like there's so many people packed into bunkers

1056
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 6: that like you can't even like walk. Everyone's just like

1057
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 6: pressed against each other. And three days later you come

1058
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 6: out of your bunker and your fucking house is gone.

1059
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 6: And those are the people who survived, right. It's it's

1060
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 6: just horrifying, and eventually there's a ceasefire. Everyone is now

1061
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 6: saying different things about the ceasefire. The Indian government is

1062
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 6: trying to downplay the US's role in the ceasefire. The

1063
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:44,520
Speaker 6: Pakistani government has been talking about how a whole bunch

1064
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:47,640
Speaker 6: of places were involved, including like Iran and Turkey to

1065
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 6: some extent, or Turkey more than I Ran. It seems

1066
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 6: like the US, the UK, and Saudi Arabia all played

1067
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 6: a role in sort of mediating it that we can

1068
01:07:57,040 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 6: sort of confirm. The US seems to have played the

1069
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:05,000
Speaker 6: law just roll, which I guess I don't know. Like

1070
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 6: Marco Rubio was like, we should probably not have a

1071
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 6: war between to nuclear powers, which okay, I'm glad that

1072
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 6: like he's finally found a thing a level that he

1073
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 6: won't stoop to which is we all die in nuclear war.

1074
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 5: I mean, like I would rather Maka Rubio was not

1075
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:28,280
Speaker 5: the Secretary of State. But like of the people who

1076
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:30,680
Speaker 5: could be under Trump administration, he's not as bad as

1077
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 5: some of the other folks.

1078
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:36,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's like he we are fully in

1079
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 6: Like which of Hitler's generals would you prefer to be

1080
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:40,560
Speaker 6: in charge of this territory?

1081
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:42,920
Speaker 4: All these people.

1082
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:44,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't need it. We don't need a debate

1083
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 2: raml right now. What we do need to do is

1084
01:08:46,720 --> 01:09:00,160
Speaker 2: throw to ads the Irwin Rommel of the podcast industry.

1085
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:03,639
Speaker 6: Okay, so there are a few things about this conflict

1086
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 6: that are very, very bad. One is that India has

1087
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 6: demonstrated the capacity to launch attacks against Pakistan that don't

1088
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 6: involve them mobilizing their ground troops, which takes forever. It

1089
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:17,640
Speaker 6: is hard. That's really fucking bad. It's also bad that

1090
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 6: again they fucking hit like the air base next to

1091
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 6: Pakistan General Army General Headquarters, which means if they try

1092
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 6: to do another attack, they're gonna have to hit a

1093
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:30,559
Speaker 6: bigger target. And they apparently it seems like the Indian

1094
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:32,320
Speaker 6: government has sort of concluded that they can do this

1095
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 6: now it's also very bad that like most of the

1096
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 6: like domestic Indian left supported this, including CPIM, the comediest

1097
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:40,640
Speaker 6: party of India Marxists, which is like the sort of

1098
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:44,320
Speaker 6: social democratic technically Maoist party that is supposed to be

1099
01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 6: like the left in India, like back the attacks, and

1100
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:49,880
Speaker 6: they've always had a fucking terrible line on Kashmir. So

1101
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 6: it's also we're mentioning a little bit. There's been a

1102
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:56,519
Speaker 6: lot of reporting about India. You know, Modia isn't making

1103
01:09:56,560 --> 01:09:58,640
Speaker 6: a bunch of noise about trying to just straight up

1104
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:03,880
Speaker 6: cut off Pakistan's access to water, which is very scary. Yeah,

1105
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 6: it's worth noting. Kay talks about this in that Jocobin piece.

1106
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 6: Case argument basically is that like they don't actually have

1107
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:13,200
Speaker 6: the infrastructure to do this, which is good because I

1108
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:15,200
Speaker 6: mean that would be a genocide. Like if they just

1109
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:18,040
Speaker 6: knocked out all back Then's access to water for agricultural

1110
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:20,559
Speaker 6: purposes and for drinking purposes, it'd be really bad. But

1111
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:22,519
Speaker 6: here's what I'm going to read this quote. Under the

1112
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:25,680
Speaker 6: treaty regulations, India is required to share hydrological data that

1113
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:28,519
Speaker 6: is essential for planning to deal with floods and or

1114
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 6: drought dream monsoon seasons. Denying Pakistan access to this data

1115
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:35,000
Speaker 6: would have a damaging impact. Moreover, because of the limited

1116
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 6: storage capacity, India can change the timing of water flow,

1117
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:41,280
Speaker 6: which is crucial for many crops during sewing seasons. So

1118
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 6: there is still a lot of damage they can do.

1119
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:47,559
Speaker 6: They can't straight up do like a genocide, but they

1120
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 6: can do a lot of damage. And while both sides

1121
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:53,960
Speaker 6: have backed off of like direct military conflict, India still

1122
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:55,880
Speaker 6: is committed to every single thing they can do to

1123
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:59,240
Speaker 6: fuck with Pakistan, which affects just like the people Pakistan.

1124
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:01,599
Speaker 6: This has also been plit very good for Modi because

1125
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:05,559
Speaker 6: alternationalism has been bolstering the sort of like Pakistani military

1126
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 6: government because there are alternationalists feed off of this, and

1127
01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 6: it's once again really fucking bad for the people of Kashmir,

1128
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:12,320
Speaker 6: who are the ones getting killed on both sides of

1129
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:17,640
Speaker 6: the border. Yep, war is bad. Free Kashmir hate this.

1130
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:22,519
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, speaking of war being bad, let's talk about

1131
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 2: what's going on in Yemen. So if you remember from

1132
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 2: the last quarter or so of the Biden administration, after

1133
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:35,919
Speaker 2: Israel launched their were prisal attacks to October seventh on Gaza,

1134
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:40,599
Speaker 2: the Huthis, which is a depending on your stance, either

1135
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 2: the legitimate government of Yemen or a rebel group in Yemen.

1136
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 2: You know, the International community stance is a rebel group.

1137
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 2: The Houthis stance is different. Started launching a series of

1138
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:54,200
Speaker 2: missile attacks, both aimed at Israel and aimed at shipping

1139
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:57,639
Speaker 2: in the Gulf of Aden, right in order to disrupt

1140
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 2: because the significant amount of the world's trade goes through there.

1141
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:03,879
Speaker 2: And this took a number of forms. They have ballistic missiles,

1142
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:06,400
Speaker 2: some of them are indigenous, by which I mean made

1143
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 2: by the who. These oftentimes using stocks that were captured

1144
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:14,320
Speaker 2: from the military and government of Yemen previously. You know

1145
01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 2: that they supplanted in a lot of areas and other

1146
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 2: times using missiles that were given to them by Iran. Yeah, right,

1147
01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:25,120
Speaker 2: So it's a mix of tactics. They have also used

1148
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:28,680
Speaker 2: drones and they have also landed troops in order to

1149
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 2: capture bulk freighters, including one called the Galaxy Leader and

1150
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:37,000
Speaker 2: I think twenty twenty three that was full of cars

1151
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 2: and their claim was that it was a British vessel,

1152
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 2: and obviously the Brits had been helping to arm and

1153
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:48,160
Speaker 2: support Israel. The vessel was actually registered in Lebanon. However,

1154
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:50,560
Speaker 2: whenever we get to discussions about like whose vessel is,

1155
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:53,400
Speaker 2: who's none of that. None of what is registered matters.

1156
01:12:53,479 --> 01:12:55,719
Speaker 2: Vessels are registered all over the place for a variety

1157
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:59,920
Speaker 2: of nothing. It's always nonsense. That means nothing. I'm masha,

1158
01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 2: and nothing in the entire world matters less to the

1159
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:07,280
Speaker 2: reality of a situation than where the vessel is registered.

1160
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:09,439
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that justifies or does it with the

1161
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:11,559
Speaker 2: houthis that, I'm just saying it does not matter where

1162
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:15,880
Speaker 2: the vessel is registered. Yeah, yeah, the ship was owned

1163
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:18,240
Speaker 2: by a Lebanon based company, But also given the nature

1164
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:20,360
Speaker 2: of capitals, it doesn't all matter all that much. Now.

1165
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 2: What also doesn't matter is that in January of this year,

1166
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 2: the Hoothi's freed the captain of that ship and they

1167
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:29,439
Speaker 2: made an announcement that they would limit further attacks to

1168
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:33,960
Speaker 2: vessels flagged deed as Israeli or owned by Israeli individuals

1169
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:38,400
Speaker 2: or entities. Right now, that also doesn't mean a lot,

1170
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 2: right because the nature of international trade means that there

1171
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 2: are a lot of you know, you could basically argue,

1172
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 2: if you're the houthis, well, this is owned by a

1173
01:13:47,479 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 2: multinational corporation who owns companies in Israel or who has

1174
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:55,120
Speaker 2: heavy investments in companies in Israel. Therefore, right, as a result,

1175
01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:58,760
Speaker 2: you know, the Hoothi's continued doing the hoothy stuff, and

1176
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 2: Trump saw them as kind of a convenient target, a

1177
01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:05,479
Speaker 2: convenient place to flex's military muscles. And there were some

1178
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:08,840
Speaker 2: people within the United States defense establishment that considered that

1179
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:12,560
Speaker 2: extremely convenient too, right, And this is largely due to

1180
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:16,080
Speaker 2: the fact that Biden prescribed a very limited campaign against

1181
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:19,480
Speaker 2: the Huthies. Now this does not mean inexpensive or insignificant.

1182
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:23,600
Speaker 2: We kept at least one aircraft carrier carrying out strikes

1183
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:26,320
Speaker 2: in Yemen for like a year or so, which is

1184
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 2: kind of the first combat duty that an aircraft carrier

1185
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:31,360
Speaker 2: has had in quite some time. That was really like

1186
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:35,040
Speaker 2: active taking incoming fire, not incoming fire that ever really

1187
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:38,439
Speaker 2: threatened the carrier itself. But that's sort of beside the point.

1188
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 2: And there were people within the US military establishment who

1189
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:44,680
Speaker 2: were consistently frustrated with the Biden administration that they were

1190
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 2: not letting them operate at a high enough tempo, right,

1191
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 2: And kind of the number one guy advocating for this

1192
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:54,640
Speaker 2: side of events was General Michael E. Carilla, who is

1193
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:57,880
Speaker 2: the head of Central Command or syentcom right, and his

1194
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:00,679
Speaker 2: attitude had been we need a much more aggressive, high

1195
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:03,920
Speaker 2: tempo campaign he pitched the Trump administration when they came in.

1196
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:05,880
Speaker 2: I think it's like an eight to ten month long

1197
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:10,080
Speaker 2: campaign where initially they would degrade who their anti air asset.

1198
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:12,559
Speaker 2: So first we go in there and we use our

1199
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:15,520
Speaker 2: air power to establish air what's called air supremacy.

1200
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 3: Right.

1201
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:20,280
Speaker 2: Air superiority means that you have better quality air support,

1202
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:23,880
Speaker 2: but also your shit can get knocked down. Air supremacy

1203
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:27,120
Speaker 2: means you have complete control of the skies. Right. The

1204
01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 2: US military is fairly used to having air supremacy if

1205
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:34,280
Speaker 2: you look at, like, for example, our combat in Iraq

1206
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:38,360
Speaker 2: and Afghanistan, when it came to like height, like fighter

1207
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 2: aircraft helicopters would get shot down from time to time

1208
01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:46,400
Speaker 2: obviously and have accidents. We weren't losing F eighteens in Afghanistan, right,

1209
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:48,240
Speaker 2: like they weren't getting knocked out of the fucking sky

1210
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:52,400
Speaker 2: by the Taliban. We had air supremacy in Ukraine. Depending

1211
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:55,599
Speaker 2: on what part of the battlespace you're talking about, either

1212
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 2: things have been more or less at a standstill, or

1213
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 2: Russia has had air superiority but not supremacy, right because

1214
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:04,720
Speaker 2: Ukraine has very solid modern anti aircraft defenses and it

1215
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:07,519
Speaker 2: has been able to exact a toll. We will talk

1216
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:10,639
Speaker 2: to a greater extent about what's been happening with India

1217
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:14,360
Speaker 2: and Pakistan. It is exceedingly unclear at the moment who

1218
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:17,320
Speaker 2: got the better of the engagement. Did any of those

1219
01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:20,800
Speaker 2: Chinese anti aircraft missiles actually knock out aircraft? Did any

1220
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:25,200
Speaker 2: India lose any aircraft? Did Pakistan down an aircraft? We

1221
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:27,720
Speaker 2: actually like everyone's making different claims right now, and I

1222
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:30,760
Speaker 2: don't have objective evidence right other than that we can

1223
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:33,640
Speaker 2: we know that things that there's at least evidence of,

1224
01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 2: at least one case what looks like refkage of a

1225
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:38,519
Speaker 2: rough fall, and in at least one case there's what

1226
01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:41,920
Speaker 2: looks like a knocked down Chinese anti aircraft missile. I'm

1227
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:43,760
Speaker 2: spacing on the exact name right now, but again, that

1228
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:47,560
Speaker 2: doesn't mean anything about how they actually affair in the battlespace,

1229
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:50,519
Speaker 2: right So anyway, Yeah, this motherfucker he had a syncom.

1230
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 2: Michael Lee Corilla was like, I've got this plan. We

1231
01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:55,000
Speaker 2: need a much more force we're going to knock out

1232
01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:57,760
Speaker 2: their anti air defenses, and then we're going to basically

1233
01:16:58,400 --> 01:17:00,880
Speaker 2: carry out a modified version of what is real carried

1234
01:17:00,920 --> 01:17:03,800
Speaker 2: out against Hamas and has belat right, where we start

1235
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:06,760
Speaker 2: targeting and killing the leadership Cadro once we've knocked out

1236
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:10,200
Speaker 2: their defenses, and he estimated that would take about a

1237
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:11,960
Speaker 2: little under a year, right, but the better part of

1238
01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:14,600
Speaker 2: a year. And the Trump administration said, you can have

1239
01:17:14,640 --> 01:17:18,200
Speaker 2: your higher tempo war, but you've got to show results

1240
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:21,240
Speaker 2: in about a month. Right, In about a month, the

1241
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:24,200
Speaker 2: US military carrid out about eleven hundred strikes they killed.

1242
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:26,600
Speaker 2: They say hundreds of hoo thy fighters, destroyed quite a

1243
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:29,960
Speaker 2: bit of weapons and equipment. Very unclear how many fighters

1244
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:33,759
Speaker 2: they killed, certainly hundreds of people. Were those all hoothy fighters?

1245
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 2: How many weapons and equipment were destroyed? I don't have

1246
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 2: access to that sort of data, and I'm not entirely

1247
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 2: confident that anyone in the US military has a much

1248
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:46,639
Speaker 2: better idea. Certainly a little bit more data, but also

1249
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:48,639
Speaker 2: they get that shit wrong all the fucking time.

1250
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:49,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1251
01:17:49,360 --> 01:17:51,160
Speaker 6: It's also like it's worth noting, right when they're talking

1252
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:55,759
Speaker 6: about like casualty numbers, the Huthis are not a small

1253
01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:59,920
Speaker 6: rebel group like now they control the capital of Yemen, right,

1254
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:03,880
Speaker 6: Like this is like the government, right yeah, they have not.

1255
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:06,800
Speaker 2: A peer state in terms of the US and that

1256
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:10,080
Speaker 2: they do not have the manufacturing base and capacity, but

1257
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:14,400
Speaker 2: they are equivalent to a small state actor, right yeah, yeah.

1258
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:16,800
Speaker 6: And so and so what you're bombing them, right like

1259
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:21,200
Speaker 6: you're you're just you're blowing smoking creators and apartment buildings.

1260
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:25,080
Speaker 2: And the Hoothies are so experienced with getting bombed. They've

1261
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:27,720
Speaker 2: been bombed by a lot of people before. None of

1262
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:31,160
Speaker 2: this is new to them, right, yeah. So in the

1263
01:18:31,200 --> 01:18:34,599
Speaker 2: first thirty days, while they you know, the US has

1264
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:36,760
Speaker 2: made a lot, has made a lot of claims about

1265
01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:39,040
Speaker 2: how many people they killed and the level of degradation

1266
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:42,559
Speaker 2: of Hoothy capacity, the Houthis have done some damage to

1267
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:45,960
Speaker 2: US capacity. They have shot down sevens at this point,

1268
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:48,240
Speaker 2: at least seven m Q nine Reaper drones, which are

1269
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:51,640
Speaker 2: thirty million dollars each. And in addition, now four f

1270
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:57,160
Speaker 2: eighteen jets have been lost not probably yeah, probably just

1271
01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:59,360
Speaker 2: to fuck ups that are a result of the tempo

1272
01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:02,600
Speaker 2: of activity. Right. These all tend to be craft that

1273
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:06,799
Speaker 2: are landing and don't get caught by the catapult system

1274
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:10,280
Speaker 2: that they've got on these aircraft carriers or otherwise wind

1275
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:13,920
Speaker 2: up in the Red Sea. Right, there is some suspicion

1276
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:16,680
Speaker 2: and debate is to like, is there any sort of

1277
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:21,080
Speaker 2: like internal treason going on here? Is somebody on the

1278
01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:25,200
Speaker 2: aircraft carrier making these fuck ups happen. This is being investigated,

1279
01:19:25,240 --> 01:19:28,799
Speaker 2: I believe, although there's no confirmation about like what exactly

1280
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:32,120
Speaker 2: has gone down. It's weird to lose this many FA

1281
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 2: eighteen super hornets and a very short period of time.

1282
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:38,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, I will say my understanding of it. Also, is

1283
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:40,000
Speaker 6: it the everything that's going on here is that this

1284
01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:42,360
Speaker 6: aircraft carrier has been out past the point it should

1285
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:45,160
Speaker 6: have been refitted. Yes, like so extraordinarily.

1286
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:48,160
Speaker 2: And it's also not weird that people fuck up when

1287
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:50,599
Speaker 2: they are carrying out operations at a tempo they never

1288
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:53,439
Speaker 2: have before, Right, And there's a very good chance that

1289
01:19:53,439 --> 01:19:55,599
Speaker 2: it's nothing more than that the more you fly, the

1290
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:57,040
Speaker 2: more accidents are going to happen.

1291
01:19:57,520 --> 01:19:57,960
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah.

1292
01:19:58,000 --> 01:19:58,320
Speaker 2: Period.

1293
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 6: Also I want to say, I want to say, imagined

1294
01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:02,439
Speaker 6: you were like the deck office.

1295
01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:08,600
Speaker 2: Oh man, that poor motherfucker, that motherfucker's getting fucked Like yeah,

1296
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:09,240
Speaker 2: like the.

1297
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:11,679
Speaker 6: First one goes over, right, and then the second one

1298
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:15,799
Speaker 6: huh goes yeah, And now it's happening right now you've

1299
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:17,960
Speaker 6: probably been you're out of the job.

1300
01:20:18,479 --> 01:20:20,479
Speaker 2: And that first guy's kind of lucky because when the

1301
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:23,080
Speaker 2: next two fall off, at least maybe that's less pressure

1302
01:20:23,160 --> 01:20:23,639
Speaker 2: on you.

1303
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:28,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, Like imagine like you're the deck officer of the

1304
01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 6: fourth Yeah. Yeah, Jesus.

1305
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:41,120
Speaker 2: God, that's gotta suck. So in about thirty days, the

1306
01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 2: US military had burned more than a billion dollars on

1307
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:48,000
Speaker 2: this operation, right at which point Trump and people around

1308
01:20:48,080 --> 01:20:50,479
Speaker 2: him were like, oh fuck, we can't keep this ship up.

1309
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:54,120
Speaker 2: We can't maintain this tempo of operations. There were warnings

1310
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:57,360
Speaker 2: given forin the Defense Department that we have used so

1311
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:00,200
Speaker 2: many of our most advanced munitions that if China makes

1312
01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:02,200
Speaker 2: a move on Taiwan, we're not sure we have the

1313
01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:05,680
Speaker 2: reserves necessary right these munitions. When we talk a lot

1314
01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:08,679
Speaker 2: about the capacity of US firepower, people talk about shit

1315
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:12,760
Speaker 2: like in twenty eighteen, how we like a There was

1316
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:15,719
Speaker 2: this Arqaita guy who had been responsible for the attack

1317
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:18,160
Speaker 2: on the US coal twenty something years ago.

1318
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:21,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, a long gas time ago.

1319
01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:22,880
Speaker 2: Who used a cell phone he shouldn't have used briefly

1320
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:24,200
Speaker 2: and then turned it off, and we were able to

1321
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:26,479
Speaker 2: get visual confirmation of where he was from the cell

1322
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:28,960
Speaker 2: phone signal and knock his ass out with a drone. Right,

1323
01:21:29,439 --> 01:21:35,800
Speaker 2: And we do have incredible capacity potentially to make unbelievably

1324
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:41,639
Speaker 2: precise strikes. However, that capacity is reliant both upon a

1325
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:46,800
Speaker 2: functional network of human intelligence, a functional network of operators

1326
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:50,599
Speaker 2: of aircraft and drones who are not completely burnt out

1327
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:54,759
Speaker 2: by the tempo of operations, and access to incredibly advanced munitions,

1328
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:57,880
Speaker 2: which we do not have an inexhaustible capacity, and are

1329
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 2: reliant upon an international supply chain to continue to manufacture, right,

1330
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:05,880
Speaker 2: and all of that has been endangered by the tempo

1331
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:09,760
Speaker 2: of this campaign. And ultimately there's a great New York

1332
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:13,280
Speaker 2: Times report on this that's just absolutely damning to the

1333
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:16,280
Speaker 2: military that came out as called why Trump suddenly declared

1334
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:19,200
Speaker 2: victory over the Hoothy militia, that declared that after all

1335
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:22,559
Speaker 2: of this, the best we can say is perhaps a

1336
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:27,160
Speaker 2: modest degradation of Hoothy capacities that they can easily recover

1337
01:22:27,280 --> 01:22:29,960
Speaker 2: from given enough time, which they're going to get because

1338
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:32,320
Speaker 2: Trump both declared victory and stated that the Hoothies had

1339
01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:36,320
Speaker 2: yet again agreed to stop striking shipping in the Red Sea,

1340
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:38,040
Speaker 2: and he was like, this is a win. We made

1341
01:22:38,080 --> 01:22:40,479
Speaker 2: a deal with him, big deal maker, Donald Trump made

1342
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 2: a deal. Now, if you look at what the Houthi said,

1343
01:22:42,280 --> 01:22:45,719
Speaker 2: all they said is we're going to stop striking Israeli shipping, which,

1344
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:49,880
Speaker 2: if you'll recall, is what they had said in January.

1345
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:57,679
Speaker 2: So did we win Now? Did the Hoothies win? Not yet,

1346
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:00,720
Speaker 2: but they're you know, they didn't lose. And again, if

1347
01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:04,439
Speaker 2: you understand your insurgent warfare, you win by just not

1348
01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:05,960
Speaker 2: losing for long enough.

1349
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:07,320
Speaker 5: Right. Yeah.

1350
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 6: Well, and it's also worth it's worth mentioning too when

1351
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:12,479
Speaker 6: you're talking about the global supply chain part of this. Right,

1352
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:14,680
Speaker 6: on the one hand, like the US has done an

1353
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:16,639
Speaker 6: extraordinary amount to try to make sure that as much

1354
01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:18,320
Speaker 6: as the supply chain as they can is in the US.

1355
01:23:18,400 --> 01:23:20,639
Speaker 6: On the other hand, it still requires a bunch chef

1356
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:22,560
Speaker 6: mother places, including a bunch of rare earth metals that

1357
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:25,799
Speaker 6: the US gets from China. Now you may be noting

1358
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:29,000
Speaker 6: we are currently fighting a trade war with China. A

1359
01:23:29,040 --> 01:23:32,200
Speaker 6: bunch of the our li strategic planning is about stopping

1360
01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:36,640
Speaker 6: a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. So and we've just expended

1361
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:39,920
Speaker 6: a shit ton of our stack pilot shots that we

1362
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:42,679
Speaker 6: can only replace by using shit we get from China.

1363
01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:47,120
Speaker 6: So absolute, just gedious brain shit that that that's happening

1364
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:49,599
Speaker 6: here right now at the highest levels of the highest

1365
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:50,559
Speaker 6: levels of the regime.

1366
01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:54,280
Speaker 5: Memma has a lot of rare earth metals, but we

1367
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:56,920
Speaker 5: have China is currently a lot closer to securing those

1368
01:23:56,960 --> 01:23:57,920
Speaker 5: than the United States.

1369
01:23:58,000 --> 01:23:58,080
Speaker 8: Is.

1370
01:23:58,640 --> 01:23:59,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not great.

1371
01:24:00,439 --> 01:24:03,679
Speaker 2: Well that's all I got. That's the who is. Let's

1372
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:05,320
Speaker 2: have another ad break real quick here.

1373
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:06,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, let's do that.

1374
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:06,600
Speaker 2: Let's do that.

1375
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:19,680
Speaker 5: Let's have an ad break. Lovely, what a nice advertising

1376
01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:23,439
Speaker 5: break we are. Now that I know many of you

1377
01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:27,120
Speaker 5: have been asking me about what is happening in Kurdistan,

1378
01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:30,600
Speaker 5: So I'm going to try my best to very briefly

1379
01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:34,160
Speaker 5: explain that in the last segment of this show. So,

1380
01:24:35,080 --> 01:24:40,000
Speaker 5: the PKK right, the PKK being the branch of the

1381
01:24:40,080 --> 01:24:44,400
Speaker 5: Kurdish Freedom Movement that has operated in Turkey as Turkey

1382
01:24:44,479 --> 01:24:48,920
Speaker 5: or Northern Kurdistan, and mostly since the mid twenty teens,

1383
01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:52,760
Speaker 5: has been based in a Rack or Southern Kurdistan. Right,

1384
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:56,000
Speaker 5: it convened its twelfth Congress in the second week of May,

1385
01:24:56,600 --> 01:25:01,080
Speaker 5: and it decided to disband itself late down its arms.

1386
01:25:01,520 --> 01:25:04,519
Speaker 5: And I think the phrasing it used was to cease

1387
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:09,040
Speaker 5: armed activities under the PKK name, which is a way

1388
01:25:09,040 --> 01:25:16,040
Speaker 5: of saying things more broadly. It did genuinely seem to

1389
01:25:16,040 --> 01:25:18,680
Speaker 5: indicate a commitment to like this sort of ballot not

1390
01:25:18,760 --> 01:25:21,519
Speaker 5: the bullet approach. And I'm going to quote kind of

1391
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:26,559
Speaker 5: extensively here from the statement that the PKK released, and

1392
01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:30,320
Speaker 5: then from other statements from like people Genial Bick, the

1393
01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:34,040
Speaker 5: leader one of the co chairs of the KCK, the KSEK,

1394
01:25:34,360 --> 01:25:38,080
Speaker 5: if you're not familiar, it's a Curdistan Communities Union that

1395
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:42,360
Speaker 5: is a group that allows the different areas of the

1396
01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:45,479
Speaker 5: Kurdish Freedom movement, all of which are inspired by the

1397
01:25:45,479 --> 01:25:48,839
Speaker 5: political thought of ab Aujerlan, to sort of come together

1398
01:25:49,080 --> 01:25:56,639
Speaker 5: and discuss their paradigm, their goals, their methodologies. I guess.

1399
01:25:57,320 --> 01:26:00,519
Speaker 5: So I want to read from the PKK statement to

1400
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:04,320
Speaker 5: begin with quote the process initiated by Leader Abdullah or

1401
01:26:04,360 --> 01:26:07,840
Speaker 5: Janan statement of February twenty seventh, and further shaped by

1402
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:11,800
Speaker 5: his extensive work and multi dimensional perspectives, culminated in the

1403
01:26:11,800 --> 01:26:15,559
Speaker 5: successful convening of our Twelfth Party Congress between May fifth

1404
01:26:15,560 --> 01:26:19,919
Speaker 5: and May the seventh. Despite ongoing clashes, aerial and ground attacks,

1405
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:24,120
Speaker 5: continued siege of our regions and the KDP embargo, our

1406
01:26:24,120 --> 01:26:28,679
Speaker 5: Congress was held securely under challenging conditions due to security concerns.

1407
01:26:28,720 --> 01:26:31,600
Speaker 5: It was conducted simultaneously in two different locations, with a

1408
01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:34,519
Speaker 5: participation of two hundred and thirty two delegates in total.

1409
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:39,360
Speaker 5: The PKK twelfth Congress discussed leadership, martyrs, veterans, the organizational

1410
01:26:39,360 --> 01:26:43,799
Speaker 5: structure of the PKK and armed struggle, and democratic society building,

1411
01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:46,640
Speaker 5: culminating in the historic decisions marking the beginning of a

1412
01:26:46,680 --> 01:26:50,559
Speaker 5: new era for a freedom movement. It's a very long statement,

1413
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:54,519
Speaker 5: as tends to be the style of statements from the

1414
01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:57,320
Speaker 5: Curdish Freedom movement. It talks a lot about Abdullah ja

1415
01:26:57,360 --> 01:27:00,240
Speaker 5: Lene as tends to be the style of statement from

1416
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:02,880
Speaker 5: the Kurdish freedom movement. I've have linked itin the shown

1417
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:04,560
Speaker 5: as if you'd like to read all of it, you know,

1418
01:27:04,600 --> 01:27:06,639
Speaker 5: and encourage you too, you're interested in this sort of thing.

1419
01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:09,800
Speaker 5: They talk a lot about the democratic nation concept and

1420
01:27:09,840 --> 01:27:12,559
Speaker 5: the idea that occurs in Turks of coxisted in Turkey

1421
01:27:12,720 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 5: for a long time, I thought this part was of interest,

1422
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:17,840
Speaker 5: and going to quote again here, the decision of our

1423
01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:20,880
Speaker 5: Congress to dissolve the PKK and end the method of

1424
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:24,040
Speaker 5: armed struggle offers a strong basis for a lasting piece

1425
01:27:24,080 --> 01:27:28,439
Speaker 5: and a democratic solution. Implementing these decisions requires that leader

1426
01:27:28,479 --> 01:27:32,240
Speaker 5: Appo Appo. It's the evocative form of the Kurdish word

1427
01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:35,360
Speaker 5: for paternal uncle, but in this in this instance, it's

1428
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:38,920
Speaker 5: referring to abdulah Jaalan, right, that's his nickname. Leader Appo,

1429
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:42,800
Speaker 5: Lead and guide the process that has right to democratic

1430
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:48,120
Speaker 5: politics be recognized and that solid, comprehensive legal guarantees be established.

1431
01:27:48,439 --> 01:27:51,120
Speaker 5: At this stage, it is essential that the Grand National

1432
01:27:51,160 --> 01:27:56,000
Speaker 5: Assembly of Turkey plays its role with historical responsibility. So

1433
01:27:56,040 --> 01:27:58,519
Speaker 5: a couple of things that are of note there. One

1434
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:03,200
Speaker 5: is that they're talking about this this transition towards democracy

1435
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:06,360
Speaker 5: or a brotherhood of nations. So talk about somewhere else, right,

1436
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:09,519
Speaker 5: brotherhood of people's it's occurring under the leadership and direction

1437
01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:12,639
Speaker 5: of Abdulla Ujerlan. If you are not familiar with Abdullah Ousjerlan,

1438
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:15,759
Speaker 5: you can listen to Roberts theories. So the women's wards

1439
01:28:15,760 --> 01:28:17,600
Speaker 5: are the great job of explaining a lot of the

1440
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:19,599
Speaker 5: stuff that we won't have time to get into today.

1441
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:24,200
Speaker 5: Very briefly, Appo has been in Imrali and various other

1442
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:28,760
Speaker 5: Turkish prisons since nineteen ninety nine. For long periods of

1443
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:32,120
Speaker 5: that time, no one was able to see him. He

1444
01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:35,200
Speaker 5: was held completely in communicado. At times there were hundreds

1445
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:38,360
Speaker 5: of troops guiding only him on this Turkish prison island.

1446
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:40,840
Speaker 5: That is no longer the case. Right. He made this

1447
01:28:40,880 --> 01:28:44,639
Speaker 5: statement on the twenty seventh of February, and since then

1448
01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:49,800
Speaker 5: the Kurdish Freedom Movement has had access to Ouscherlan. Right.

1449
01:28:50,040 --> 01:28:54,200
Speaker 5: He actually made another statement on the eighteenth of May

1450
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:57,760
Speaker 5: where he said, I quote, a new contract is needed

1451
01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:00,200
Speaker 5: based on the law of brotherhood. What we are doing

1452
01:29:00,200 --> 01:29:03,240
Speaker 5: represents a major paradigm shift. The nature of the Turkish

1453
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:06,640
Speaker 5: Kurdish relationship is fundamentally different. What has been broken in

1454
01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:10,960
Speaker 5: the bond of brotherhood. It seems like through the DEM

1455
01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:14,719
Speaker 5: Party right, which is a left leaning party in Turkey,

1456
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:17,280
Speaker 5: which has supported the Kurdish cause and for a long

1457
01:29:17,320 --> 01:29:21,320
Speaker 5: time has served as like the interlocutor between Turkey and

1458
01:29:21,360 --> 01:29:24,760
Speaker 5: the Kurdish Freedom movement. Through the DEM Party, they have

1459
01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:30,599
Speaker 5: access to Ouserland and they're able relatively frequently. It seems

1460
01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:33,320
Speaker 5: like these dem party officials to go to him rally

1461
01:29:33,400 --> 01:29:37,280
Speaker 5: and talk to him, and so they're talking about his

1462
01:29:37,479 --> 01:29:43,519
Speaker 5: leadership continuing through this democratic transition. Right. For the Curdish

1463
01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:47,360
Speaker 5: Freedom Movement, Jimil Bikes Jimil Bike again is the co

1464
01:29:47,520 --> 01:29:50,719
Speaker 5: chair of the ksey K and institutions within the Kurdish

1465
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:53,639
Speaker 5: Freedom Movement. There's a co chair system, right, which means

1466
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:57,120
Speaker 5: so that a man and a woman share the chairmanship

1467
01:29:57,240 --> 01:30:01,920
Speaker 5: of an institution such that they triarchal structures aren't replicated

1468
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:05,759
Speaker 5: in the movement. That's the goal of the co chair system.

1469
01:30:06,080 --> 01:30:07,720
Speaker 5: He has a two part interview in A and F

1470
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:10,080
Speaker 5: which I've linked again in the notes. He talked about

1471
01:30:10,120 --> 01:30:14,120
Speaker 5: how like the first role of the PKK, of the movement,

1472
01:30:14,160 --> 01:30:16,479
Speaker 5: even before it was called the PKK, was to quote

1473
01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:21,920
Speaker 5: unquote reveal the Kurdish quote unquote Kurdish question, right, That's

1474
01:30:21,960 --> 01:30:24,080
Speaker 5: how they refer to it. Other times I talk about

1475
01:30:24,080 --> 01:30:26,599
Speaker 5: her Kurdish people were on their knees and like under

1476
01:30:26,640 --> 01:30:29,800
Speaker 5: the leadership of Augiland they stood up. They talk about

1477
01:30:29,840 --> 01:30:32,800
Speaker 5: also how matt Arrarat Turkey has a plaque apparently where

1478
01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:35,800
Speaker 5: it says like here is buried the imaginary Kurdish nation,

1479
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:39,599
Speaker 5: and like the Kurdish nation is certainly not buried anymore.

1480
01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:42,599
Speaker 5: Right like it, it's very active. Kurds are very politically

1481
01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:45,680
Speaker 5: empowered in two of the four countries where Kurds live,

1482
01:30:45,800 --> 01:30:48,200
Speaker 5: right Like in Turkey they are to a lesser extent,

1483
01:30:48,240 --> 01:30:50,639
Speaker 5: but they're still present. No one could deny their presence.

1484
01:30:51,120 --> 01:30:54,639
Speaker 5: In Iran, it's still, i guess more difficult the time

1485
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:58,559
Speaker 5: for the Kurdish freedom movement, Biack said. Within our initial

1486
01:30:58,600 --> 01:31:02,400
Speaker 5: paradigm and our first manifesto, the Kurdish identity, the Kurdish

1487
01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:06,320
Speaker 5: people and Kurdish society were formed. A society in love

1488
01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:09,519
Speaker 5: with freedom was formed. People emerged that would fight for

1489
01:31:09,600 --> 01:31:12,800
Speaker 5: freedom under any circumstances. On this basis, we are now

1490
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:16,600
Speaker 5: developing a new paradigm, a second manifesto. This paradigm, this

1491
01:31:16,720 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 5: manifesto aimed to resolve not only the Kurdish question, but

1492
01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:21,479
Speaker 5: also the issues of the peoples of the Middle East

1493
01:31:21,520 --> 01:31:25,439
Speaker 5: and humanity as a whole. Rabert Apple, rayber Smith's leader,

1494
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:28,719
Speaker 5: Rabert Apple is no longer leading only the Kurdish people.

1495
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:41,320
Speaker 5: He's leading all peoples in humanity. Yeah it's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1496
01:31:41,320 --> 01:31:45,439
Speaker 5: it's yeah. This is the sort of rhetoric we can

1497
01:31:45,479 --> 01:31:49,320
Speaker 5: expect from the case k right, Like they're very dedicated

1498
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:53,240
Speaker 5: to Julan as a leader. Yes, yes, and you know,

1499
01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:55,120
Speaker 5: Robert and I have both been trus Java.

1500
01:31:55,120 --> 01:31:57,240
Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of no life without our leader's

1501
01:31:57,240 --> 01:31:59,160
Speaker 2: speeches and seeing a lot of a lot of those

1502
01:31:59,160 --> 01:31:59,840
Speaker 2: posters as well.

1503
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:02,280
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, Like you can't really go into a space

1504
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:05,240
Speaker 5: you'll see other Like it's not just Oserlan, right, you're

1505
01:32:05,240 --> 01:32:07,240
Speaker 5: going to see a wind I can, and you're going

1506
01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:10,400
Speaker 5: to see it's not like just a guy with a mustache.

1507
01:32:10,400 --> 01:32:12,479
Speaker 5: You're going to see women idolized in the movement too.

1508
01:32:12,520 --> 01:32:16,960
Speaker 5: But auscher Land to the greatest extent is like their

1509
01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:20,360
Speaker 5: dear leader figure. You can see his face all over Rashava,

1510
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:24,200
Speaker 5: and they're very dedicated to Oucherlen's leadership. And like this

1511
01:32:25,160 --> 01:32:29,160
Speaker 5: change in structure does not change that, or this change

1512
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:32,599
Speaker 5: in approach has not changed that. In fact, it underlines that, right,

1513
01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:36,240
Speaker 5: Like from the letter that Ocherlean wrote and he wrote

1514
01:32:36,320 --> 01:32:39,000
Speaker 5: letters to different parts of the Kurdish Freedom movement came

1515
01:32:39,080 --> 01:32:42,760
Speaker 5: this change, right, So it's still at the instruction of Ochelin,

1516
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:48,519
Speaker 5: albeit with the consent of these delegates who went to

1517
01:32:48,560 --> 01:32:52,519
Speaker 5: this PKK Congress right and voted. I've reached out to

1518
01:32:52,560 --> 01:32:55,760
Speaker 5: the k CK to ask for a comment on like

1519
01:32:56,160 --> 01:32:59,400
Speaker 5: exactly what this means in terms of like most of

1520
01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:01,400
Speaker 5: the KCK, as I said, are in the mountains of

1521
01:33:01,479 --> 01:33:06,080
Speaker 5: southern Kurdistan now, and they have fought Turkey there for years. Right,

1522
01:33:06,120 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 5: We've covered that on this podcast North in Iraq, Southern Kerdistan,

1523
01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:12,839
Speaker 5: however you wish to call it, like Turkey has been bombing.

1524
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:15,160
Speaker 5: They were bombing it last time I was there. I'm

1525
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:17,040
Speaker 5: sure they were bombing it last time Robert was there.

1526
01:33:17,320 --> 01:33:22,040
Speaker 5: They've been bombing it ever since. And the villages that

1527
01:33:22,160 --> 01:33:25,080
Speaker 5: have really suffered as a result. Right, people have lost

1528
01:33:25,120 --> 01:33:27,920
Speaker 5: their theildren, they've lost their lands, they've often had their

1529
01:33:27,920 --> 01:33:32,560
Speaker 5: crops burned right by these bombs. So I'm interested to

1530
01:33:32,640 --> 01:33:36,120
Speaker 5: know that will the idea of the Kurdish Freedom Movement

1531
01:33:36,280 --> 01:33:40,040
Speaker 5: leaving the mountains there is I mean, it would be

1532
01:33:40,080 --> 01:33:42,160
Speaker 5: a hell of a site they've been in, they've been

1533
01:33:42,160 --> 01:33:45,080
Speaker 5: in those mountains for a long time. But I don't

1534
01:33:45,120 --> 01:33:48,760
Speaker 5: know what this means for the Kurdish Freedom Movement in

1535
01:33:48,920 --> 01:33:52,240
Speaker 5: Southern Kurdistan. But I've asked. I don't know if this

1536
01:33:52,360 --> 01:33:56,920
Speaker 5: means that they will attempt like a straight up electoral strategy, right,

1537
01:33:57,080 --> 01:34:02,200
Speaker 5: or when Ogerland's asking for new contract, right, like a

1538
01:34:02,240 --> 01:34:05,800
Speaker 5: new social contract. That's how in Rajaba they literally have

1539
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:06,479
Speaker 5: a social contract.

1540
01:34:06,520 --> 01:34:06,600
Speaker 9: Right.

1541
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:09,640
Speaker 5: The social contract is generally like a theoretical construct in

1542
01:34:09,760 --> 01:34:12,479
Speaker 5: most like neoliberal democracies, the idea that you and the

1543
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:15,960
Speaker 5: state enter into an agreement whereby you give up some

1544
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:19,120
Speaker 5: freedom and you lose some danger and the state gives

1545
01:34:19,160 --> 01:34:21,520
Speaker 5: you some safety and it takes some of your freedom.

1546
01:34:22,200 --> 01:34:24,760
Speaker 5: In raja but the social contract is a real thing, right,

1547
01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:28,200
Speaker 5: Like it's a thing that is formed in consultation with society.

1548
01:34:28,720 --> 01:34:33,720
Speaker 5: So when when we see Appo asking a bandon new contract,

1549
01:34:33,720 --> 01:34:36,040
Speaker 5: does that mean that they will engage like on the

1550
01:34:36,040 --> 01:34:39,680
Speaker 5: basis of a new Turkish constitution. I don't know. I

1551
01:34:39,680 --> 01:34:41,559
Speaker 5: don't think any of us have answers to these questions,

1552
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:43,800
Speaker 5: and I imagine that they don't either, write like they

1553
01:34:44,360 --> 01:34:48,879
Speaker 5: have decided to pursue this strategy of peace. They've decided

1554
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:52,200
Speaker 5: that through their armed conflict they were able to prove

1555
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:55,200
Speaker 5: that they exist. And that's a phrase that specifically people

1556
01:34:55,400 --> 01:34:57,360
Speaker 5: have said to me in the Kurdish Freedom movement, like

1557
01:34:57,439 --> 01:35:00,200
Speaker 5: we had to pick up arms to prove that we exist.

1558
01:35:00,960 --> 01:35:04,160
Speaker 5: And now that there's no denying their existence, they can

1559
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:08,599
Speaker 5: use different methods, right like they put down their weapons

1560
01:35:08,680 --> 01:35:12,040
Speaker 5: and talk and established with Turkey how to coexist, having

1561
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:15,519
Speaker 5: established that they exist through the armed struggle. So for them,

1562
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:17,840
Speaker 5: this is like they're celebrating it, right. They'll draw the

1563
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:22,519
Speaker 5: analogy very often to like Shinfein in Ireland. That's one

1564
01:35:22,560 --> 01:35:25,280
Speaker 5: that you're here pretty often, and that this is their

1565
01:35:25,320 --> 01:35:29,120
Speaker 5: Good Friday. Now. In the Good Friday Agreement, Britainer released

1566
01:35:29,160 --> 01:35:34,599
Speaker 5: people from prison. Number of very highly cherished, very highly

1567
01:35:34,640 --> 01:35:37,759
Speaker 5: respected members of the Kurdish Freedom movement are still in prison.

1568
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:41,599
Speaker 5: Of course, Oderlan being the most sort of widely loved

1569
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:44,920
Speaker 5: and respected member of the Kurdish Freedom movement. I don't

1570
01:35:44,920 --> 01:35:47,320
Speaker 5: think we're seeing Osderlan come out of prison. I don't

1571
01:35:47,360 --> 01:35:49,920
Speaker 5: think there's a world in which Turkey would let that happen.

1572
01:35:50,320 --> 01:35:53,720
Speaker 5: But maybe we will see some other people released. Maybe

1573
01:35:54,040 --> 01:35:57,639
Speaker 5: we will see those people. I don't enter into electoral politics.

1574
01:35:57,640 --> 01:36:00,639
Speaker 5: Some of them have been in the struggle for fifty

1575
01:36:00,640 --> 01:36:03,640
Speaker 5: plus years, right, like fifty years living in the mountains

1576
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:07,559
Speaker 5: and constantly being worried about being bombed. So it'll be

1577
01:36:07,600 --> 01:36:10,160
Speaker 5: fascinating to see how this This has been a long

1578
01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:12,880
Speaker 5: and bloody conflict. It has been going for longer, but

1579
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:16,200
Speaker 5: any of us have been alive. If the friends are happy,

1580
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:16,679
Speaker 5: then I'm.

1581
01:36:16,560 --> 01:36:19,840
Speaker 4: Happy for them, right, And if peace is.

1582
01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:22,680
Speaker 5: What they want and they can get away to continue,

1583
01:36:23,400 --> 01:36:25,839
Speaker 5: like General Bick says, like the people in love with freedom,

1584
01:36:25,880 --> 01:36:28,320
Speaker 5: Like if they can keep their freedom and they can

1585
01:36:28,360 --> 01:36:31,519
Speaker 5: do it without war, then I'm happy for them because,

1586
01:36:31,640 --> 01:36:34,599
Speaker 5: like I've talked to a lot of Kurdish parents who

1587
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:35,559
Speaker 5: have buried their children.

1588
01:36:36,040 --> 01:36:38,680
Speaker 2: God Almighty been to too many of the graveyards and

1589
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:39,439
Speaker 2: northern Syria.

1590
01:36:39,640 --> 01:36:43,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, there's little white graveyards with little children's faces.

1591
01:36:43,479 --> 01:36:45,880
Speaker 5: Like that will stay with me forever.

1592
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:47,680
Speaker 2: Whatever stops that, you know.

1593
01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:51,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like if one of the things that kind of

1594
01:36:51,160 --> 01:36:53,240
Speaker 5: struck me when I was in Rajaba last time is

1595
01:36:53,280 --> 01:36:56,920
Speaker 5: that like death just falls from the night sky sometimes, yeah,

1596
01:36:56,960 --> 01:36:59,800
Speaker 5: and maybe maybe it's your baby, maybe it's you, maybe

1597
01:36:59,840 --> 01:37:03,559
Speaker 5: it's your grandma, And it's a pretty horrible way to live.

1598
01:37:04,200 --> 01:37:07,759
Speaker 5: And going through that for your freedom is something very brave.

1599
01:37:07,920 --> 01:37:12,720
Speaker 5: And they have endured some of the worst conflict on

1600
01:37:12,760 --> 01:37:15,439
Speaker 5: the planet in the last few decades, right, They've fought

1601
01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:17,679
Speaker 5: some of the worst fucking people on the planet on

1602
01:37:17,680 --> 01:37:21,040
Speaker 5: one and if there is a way that the people

1603
01:37:21,040 --> 01:37:23,439
Speaker 5: of Kurdistan can enjoy peace, I want that for them

1604
01:37:24,080 --> 01:37:26,320
Speaker 5: because they've been at war for a very long time. Yep,

1605
01:37:27,400 --> 01:37:29,200
Speaker 5: Hi everyone, it's James, and which is adding this pick

1606
01:37:29,280 --> 01:37:32,080
Speaker 5: up to the episode. I was able to get some

1607
01:37:32,920 --> 01:37:35,880
Speaker 5: questions answered on behalf of the Kurdish Freedim movement, and

1608
01:37:35,920 --> 01:37:38,439
Speaker 5: I would just like to share those answers with you.

1609
01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:41,559
Speaker 5: So I asked Ifvojulan was able to address the Congress.

1610
01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:44,439
Speaker 5: I'd prieviously been told he was. This is a response.

1611
01:37:45,040 --> 01:37:48,240
Speaker 5: Throughout the more than twenty six years that Kurdish People's

1612
01:37:48,320 --> 01:37:50,800
Speaker 5: Leader Abdula Ogelan has been held hostage in the prison

1613
01:37:50,880 --> 01:37:53,080
Speaker 5: island of him Rally, he has always found ways to

1614
01:37:53,080 --> 01:37:55,400
Speaker 5: convey his messages and perspectives to the Congress of the

1615
01:37:55,400 --> 01:37:58,679
Speaker 5: PKK that has taken place. So it was again regarding

1616
01:37:58,720 --> 01:38:01,439
Speaker 5: the twelfth Congress of the pKa, which convened from May

1617
01:38:01,439 --> 01:38:03,200
Speaker 5: the fifth to May the seventh in the Free Mountains

1618
01:38:03,240 --> 01:38:05,760
Speaker 5: of Kurdistan. He was able to forward his ideas and

1619
01:38:05,800 --> 01:38:08,719
Speaker 5: analysis via the various delegations that have visited him throughout

1620
01:38:08,760 --> 01:38:11,960
Speaker 5: the last few months, I asked about Ojulan's call for

1621
01:38:12,000 --> 01:38:14,920
Speaker 5: a new social contract and they told me Turkish People's

1622
01:38:14,960 --> 01:38:17,880
Speaker 5: Leader ab Dela Ojulan's calls and the historic initiative that

1623
01:38:17,960 --> 01:38:20,599
Speaker 5: he has taken do not imply that the Turkish State

1624
01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:22,840
Speaker 5: has adopted the same attitude or that the state has

1625
01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:26,000
Speaker 5: changed its approach. Kurdish People's Leader ab de la Aujulin

1626
01:38:26,120 --> 01:38:28,240
Speaker 5: is not simply hoping for a change of mentality in

1627
01:38:28,240 --> 01:38:30,880
Speaker 5: the state, but it's moving forward developing his project and

1628
01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:33,559
Speaker 5: thereby pulling the state along with him. What he is

1629
01:38:33,600 --> 01:38:37,000
Speaker 5: currently primarily concerned with is a redefining and reconstruction of

1630
01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:40,639
Speaker 5: the historical alliance of the Kurdish and Turkish people, which

1631
01:38:40,640 --> 01:38:43,200
Speaker 5: has been derailed during the past century. A long term

1632
01:38:43,200 --> 01:38:46,280
Speaker 5: democratic solution to the Kurdish question necessitates a recognition of

1633
01:38:46,320 --> 01:38:48,320
Speaker 5: the role of the Kurds in the establishment and development

1634
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:51,559
Speaker 5: of the republic. Relations between the peoples must be brought

1635
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:55,040
Speaker 5: back to the historical routes, so division cannot be realized Unilatterally,

1636
01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:57,719
Speaker 5: it lays in the nature of the way the struggle

1637
01:38:57,760 --> 01:38:59,800
Speaker 5: at the Kurdish People's Leader ab Del Ajulan and the

1638
01:38:59,800 --> 01:39:02,600
Speaker 5: p that when they want to achieve a solution to

1639
01:39:02,640 --> 01:39:05,840
Speaker 5: a specific issue, they initially create through struggle the necessary

1640
01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:09,559
Speaker 5: conditions and contexts for it. What Abdul Ojiland does is

1641
01:39:09,600 --> 01:39:12,560
Speaker 5: to set the context and to encourage all related circles

1642
01:39:12,600 --> 01:39:16,200
Speaker 5: in Turkey to take upon their responsibility for our lasting peace.

1643
01:39:16,880 --> 01:39:18,519
Speaker 5: And then I wanted to ask about the people who

1644
01:39:18,560 --> 01:39:21,200
Speaker 5: are incarcerated and like the steps that they needed from

1645
01:39:21,200 --> 01:39:24,120
Speaker 5: the Turkish state in order for this peace process to continue.

1646
01:39:24,439 --> 01:39:27,920
Speaker 5: And this is what they said. A historic initiative was

1647
01:39:28,000 --> 01:39:30,799
Speaker 5: taken by Curdish People's Leader Abdula Aujilan and the PKK.

1648
01:39:31,320 --> 01:39:33,599
Speaker 5: First of all, there was the publication of the quote

1649
01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:36,959
Speaker 5: call for Peace and democratic Society and quote on February

1650
01:39:36,960 --> 01:39:40,400
Speaker 5: twenty sevenths. Then there was a declaration of the unilateral

1651
01:39:40,439 --> 01:39:43,240
Speaker 5: ceasefire on March first, and now there was the twelve

1652
01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:46,360
Speaker 5: PKK Congress May fifth to seventh was a decision to

1653
01:39:46,360 --> 01:39:49,879
Speaker 5: dissolve the PKK. All of those steps were unilateral steps

1654
01:39:49,920 --> 01:39:52,200
Speaker 5: that were not the result of negotiations with the state.

1655
01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:55,080
Speaker 5: So far, no official negotiations to take a place, and

1656
01:39:55,120 --> 01:39:58,519
Speaker 5: the original verbal agreements have been reached. The steps taken

1657
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:02,559
Speaker 5: were only assign goodwill and expression of seriousness about peace.

1658
01:40:03,080 --> 01:40:05,160
Speaker 5: Now it is upon the Turkish state to answer to

1659
01:40:05,200 --> 01:40:08,960
Speaker 5: this initiative and take the first practical legal steps. So far,

1660
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:11,439
Speaker 5: all we have seen is empty rhetoric. For the process

1661
01:40:11,439 --> 01:40:15,000
Speaker 5: to actually unfold, Kurdish People's leader Abdullah Oujelan must first

1662
01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:18,000
Speaker 5: of all, regain his physical freedom, and the conditions for

1663
01:40:18,120 --> 01:40:21,800
Speaker 5: him to work freely, healthily and securely must be guaranteed

1664
01:40:21,920 --> 01:40:23,800
Speaker 5: so that he can fulfill his role as a chief

1665
01:40:23,840 --> 01:40:27,519
Speaker 5: negotiator of the Kurdish people. Also, the constitutional reforms that

1666
01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:29,920
Speaker 5: grant the basic rights of the Kurds and recognize him

1667
01:40:29,920 --> 01:40:32,360
Speaker 5: as one of the primary constituents of a republic must

1668
01:40:32,400 --> 01:40:36,280
Speaker 5: take place now. These are the first necessary steps. From

1669
01:40:36,320 --> 01:40:40,599
Speaker 5: there a peace process can unfold. If you're wondering about Rajava,

1670
01:40:40,720 --> 01:40:43,800
Speaker 5: just to finish up, Muslumabdi made a statement a Slumubdi,

1671
01:40:44,320 --> 01:40:47,840
Speaker 5: leader of the Syrian Democratic Forces Right, sometimes called General

1672
01:40:47,880 --> 01:40:52,160
Speaker 5: muslium Hova Muslum depends who depends what side of things

1673
01:40:52,160 --> 01:40:55,280
Speaker 5: you're on, I guess. Muslum Abdi made a statement congratulating

1674
01:40:55,320 --> 01:40:57,760
Speaker 5: the PKKA, saying he hoped to all parties supported the

1675
01:40:57,800 --> 01:41:02,599
Speaker 5: peace process. The SDF is still in clashes with remnants

1676
01:41:02,600 --> 01:41:07,520
Speaker 5: of the so called Islamic State and increasingly with Sunnis

1677
01:41:07,560 --> 01:41:11,840
Speaker 5: within the Syrian Revolution who are growing disheartened with what

1678
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:16,000
Speaker 5: they see as al Shara's moderate turn right, the Damascus

1679
01:41:16,000 --> 01:41:21,320
Speaker 5: government being to lib for some of these Sunni groups,

1680
01:41:21,439 --> 01:41:24,920
Speaker 5: and so isis the Islamic State, whatever you want to

1681
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:27,280
Speaker 5: call it. Dash is using that as a chance to

1682
01:41:27,520 --> 01:41:31,679
Speaker 5: recruit people, and that is why we are seeing ongoing fighting.

1683
01:41:31,960 --> 01:41:34,400
Speaker 5: I literally I saw that they were they were burying

1684
01:41:34,439 --> 01:41:38,280
Speaker 5: one of their SDF fighters in Kamishlow today.

1685
01:41:38,000 --> 01:41:38,080
Speaker 4: Ye.

1686
01:41:38,479 --> 01:41:42,800
Speaker 5: So unfortunately for the people who a fra Java, the

1687
01:41:43,160 --> 01:41:46,760
Speaker 5: killing and dying continues, which, yes, it's sad, yes, yeah,

1688
01:41:46,880 --> 01:41:48,920
Speaker 5: I want peace for my friends there and in Burma.

1689
01:41:49,080 --> 01:41:52,040
Speaker 5: Like yeah, despite the fact that Robert and I get

1690
01:41:52,120 --> 01:41:54,360
Speaker 5: paid to go to wars sometimes, it doesn't mean we

1691
01:41:54,400 --> 01:41:56,160
Speaker 5: don't want a friends to live in peace. Yeah.

1692
01:41:56,160 --> 01:41:57,960
Speaker 2: I would like there to not be any more to

1693
01:41:58,000 --> 01:41:58,200
Speaker 2: go to.

1694
01:41:58,320 --> 01:41:59,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, that would be great.

1695
01:41:59,320 --> 01:42:01,400
Speaker 2: I'll find something else to do. Yeah, fuck it, I'll

1696
01:42:01,439 --> 01:42:03,400
Speaker 2: go run with the bulls again. I went White Rotter

1697
01:42:03,520 --> 01:42:05,960
Speaker 2: rafting yesterday. It was nice. I could just do more

1698
01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:06,200
Speaker 2: of that.

1699
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:08,639
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, no o, well climb yeah, you know.

1700
01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:13,000
Speaker 2: All right, everybody We're done for the day. Go hopefully

1701
01:42:13,040 --> 01:42:14,840
Speaker 2: not live in a war zone. But if you do,

1702
01:42:15,040 --> 01:42:17,120
Speaker 2: hopefully that stops so peace.

1703
01:42:30,920 --> 01:42:34,000
Speaker 4: Welcome to it could happen here show about things falling apart,

1704
01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:39,400
Speaker 4: and today the thing falling apart is the Galactic Empire.

1705
01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:43,800
Speaker 4: This is episode four of our four part series talking

1706
01:42:43,840 --> 01:42:48,040
Speaker 4: about the politics of and Or Season two. And Or

1707
01:42:48,120 --> 01:42:50,599
Speaker 4: has sadly come to a close. This will be our

1708
01:42:50,640 --> 01:42:55,960
Speaker 4: final discussion episode talking about and season two episodes ten, eleven,

1709
01:42:56,160 --> 01:43:00,479
Speaker 4: and twelve. I'm Garrison Davis. I'm joined by Robert and

1710
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:05,200
Speaker 4: Mio Wong. What a what a exhilarating For four weeks

1711
01:43:05,200 --> 01:43:05,720
Speaker 4: this has been.

1712
01:43:06,360 --> 01:43:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna miss it.

1713
01:43:08,080 --> 01:43:11,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, we're we're getting relief from the horrors to live

1714
01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:12,879
Speaker 6: the horrors in another universe.

1715
01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:14,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1716
01:43:14,080 --> 01:43:15,960
Speaker 4: No, it's sucks now that that we have to just

1717
01:43:16,040 --> 01:43:19,320
Speaker 4: do all this stuff, except like the eight years in

1718
01:43:19,360 --> 01:43:22,240
Speaker 4: the past version, because the level in which they've advanced

1719
01:43:22,280 --> 01:43:27,440
Speaker 4: here is far beyond certainly the US's revolutionary potential.

1720
01:43:27,920 --> 01:43:30,240
Speaker 2: Alas Yes, tragic.

1721
01:43:30,520 --> 01:43:33,760
Speaker 6: Hey, if anyone wants to be our mom mofbud taken applications,

1722
01:43:34,160 --> 01:43:36,599
Speaker 6: you you you could, you can be the good liberal.

1723
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:37,439
Speaker 4: You can be it.

1724
01:43:37,520 --> 01:43:40,639
Speaker 2: Oh Man I'll take a fucking Kraeger at this point.

1725
01:43:45,280 --> 01:43:47,160
Speaker 4: So I think we're gonna do these episodes a little

1726
01:43:47,160 --> 01:43:50,480
Speaker 4: bit differently. I'm not going to do a whole synopsis

1727
01:43:50,479 --> 01:43:53,120
Speaker 4: for each of these episodes, since for these last three

1728
01:43:53,160 --> 01:43:56,720
Speaker 4: the show has mostly a shwed plot for emotional and

1729
01:43:56,800 --> 01:43:59,559
Speaker 4: character beats, So instead, I want to quickly go over

1730
01:43:59,680 --> 01:44:02,839
Speaker 4: each of those character points and then we can discuss

1731
01:44:02,880 --> 01:44:06,439
Speaker 4: those in detail, and most of our discussion will probably

1732
01:44:06,479 --> 01:44:11,400
Speaker 4: be around episode ten. Make it stop, yep. Let's start

1733
01:44:11,439 --> 01:44:14,080
Speaker 4: at the beginning Lonnie's last meeting.

1734
01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:14,800
Speaker 10: Ah.

1735
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:18,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the ICP double agent Lonnie Young calls Luthen

1736
01:44:18,680 --> 01:44:20,880
Speaker 4: to an emergency meeting to give him one final batch

1737
01:44:20,920 --> 01:44:26,439
Speaker 4: of intel after burning his cover. It's really shocking and

1738
01:44:26,520 --> 01:44:30,320
Speaker 4: worrying when we see Luthen and Lonnie meeting in public.

1739
01:44:30,360 --> 01:44:32,800
Speaker 4: That that that already lets you know like, oh, this

1740
01:44:32,880 --> 01:44:36,120
Speaker 4: is like this is the end. This is stuff is

1741
01:44:36,200 --> 01:44:38,680
Speaker 4: like the most jover it's ever been for Lonnie.

1742
01:44:39,120 --> 01:44:41,040
Speaker 2: There's a great line they got one of the strongest

1743
01:44:41,080 --> 01:44:43,639
Speaker 2: reactions with the folks I was watching it with when

1744
01:44:44,640 --> 01:44:46,920
Speaker 2: Luthan's about to head out and he's talking with Claya

1745
01:44:47,080 --> 01:44:49,160
Speaker 2: and she's like, don't do this.

1746
01:44:49,240 --> 01:44:49,519
Speaker 1: Meeting.

1747
01:44:49,560 --> 01:44:51,880
Speaker 4: If it doesn't look perfect, we don't engage.

1748
01:44:52,200 --> 01:44:54,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Luthen responds, I think we've used up all

1749
01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:55,160
Speaker 2: the perfect.

1750
01:44:56,080 --> 01:44:58,240
Speaker 4: If you're stuff all the perfect.

1751
01:44:58,840 --> 01:45:01,520
Speaker 2: It's this, it's this really good. There's some very impressive

1752
01:45:01,560 --> 01:45:04,760
Speaker 2: like face acting from Scar's guard here where you you

1753
01:45:04,880 --> 01:45:07,680
Speaker 2: see he's There's so much he wants to say to

1754
01:45:07,760 --> 01:45:10,599
Speaker 2: this person, who, as we'll discuss, is essentially his daughter.

1755
01:45:11,240 --> 01:45:14,480
Speaker 2: But ultimately all that happens is she says, Tucky Shirtan.

1756
01:45:15,520 --> 01:45:16,240
Speaker 4: It's insane.

1757
01:45:16,600 --> 01:45:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1758
01:45:17,720 --> 01:45:20,479
Speaker 4: So he meets with Lonnie. Lonnie needs like assurances for

1759
01:45:20,600 --> 01:45:23,719
Speaker 4: like him and his family's safety. Luthen tells them that

1760
01:45:23,840 --> 01:45:30,360
Speaker 4: they'll be able to flee to Yavin together. Sure, sure, buddy. Yeah. So,

1761
01:45:30,640 --> 01:45:33,960
Speaker 4: by accessing Deadro's computer files, Lonnie learns that the Emperor's

1762
01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:37,240
Speaker 4: new energy project, the Calcite mining on Gorman the kyber

1763
01:45:37,280 --> 01:45:40,400
Speaker 4: On Jetta are actually part of a massive super weapon.

1764
01:45:41,160 --> 01:45:43,799
Speaker 4: Luthn is warned that Dedra and the ISB are preparing

1765
01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:45,680
Speaker 4: for a raid on corus On and he may be

1766
01:45:45,840 --> 01:45:49,960
Speaker 4: the target. Luthen ends up killing Lonnie to tie up

1767
01:45:50,040 --> 01:45:52,479
Speaker 4: loose ends and passes off the information to Claya to

1768
01:45:52,560 --> 01:45:55,320
Speaker 4: relay it to the Rebel Alliance while he goes to

1769
01:45:55,439 --> 01:45:58,840
Speaker 4: thermite their computer hard drive, saying yeah, he quotes, I'll

1770
01:45:58,840 --> 01:46:02,800
Speaker 4: do the burn again. It's it's it's jover like our

1771
01:46:03,080 --> 01:46:05,680
Speaker 4: our shop, our little home, our little base of operations

1772
01:46:05,680 --> 01:46:10,320
Speaker 4: in Coruscant. Yeah, is getting destroyed. This is this is

1773
01:46:10,560 --> 01:46:11,679
Speaker 4: truly the end of an era.

1774
01:46:11,800 --> 01:46:12,080
Speaker 5: Here.

1775
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:16,240
Speaker 4: Luthin either knows or has like decided that he has

1776
01:46:16,320 --> 01:46:18,400
Speaker 4: run out of time, and the only way to be

1777
01:46:18,520 --> 01:46:22,680
Speaker 4: sure that the information safely reaches the Alliance is to

1778
01:46:22,840 --> 01:46:26,400
Speaker 4: give the ISB a distraction, and that distraction is himself.

1779
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:30,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again it's very consistent. He's clearly trying to

1780
01:46:30,400 --> 01:46:33,559
Speaker 2: buy time for Claya to escape, right like, that's that's

1781
01:46:33,760 --> 01:46:36,040
Speaker 2: part part of his purpose here. Yeah, and I think

1782
01:46:36,080 --> 01:46:40,679
Speaker 2: he's also just done, you know, totally, he's done. He's

1783
01:46:40,760 --> 01:46:43,360
Speaker 2: tired and he doesn't have it in him to run anymore.

1784
01:46:43,600 --> 01:46:45,960
Speaker 4: And that's kind of what he discusses in this next section,

1785
01:46:46,120 --> 01:46:50,080
Speaker 4: which is such an efficient piece of screenwriting. When Dedra

1786
01:46:50,240 --> 01:46:54,200
Speaker 4: arrives at Luthern's gallery, Yeah, you can you can only

1787
01:46:54,280 --> 01:46:57,719
Speaker 4: hide in play insight for so long, and that time

1788
01:46:57,760 --> 01:47:03,280
Speaker 4: has come. As as dead Roel arrives, Lusen says, here

1789
01:47:03,320 --> 01:47:08,960
Speaker 4: you are at last, uh huh. Every line in their exchange,

1790
01:47:09,120 --> 01:47:11,800
Speaker 4: like but before before she lets him know, like hey,

1791
01:47:11,840 --> 01:47:13,639
Speaker 4: I know you are, Like but like every line leading

1792
01:47:13,720 --> 01:47:15,960
Speaker 4: up to that is a double entendre, like like every

1793
01:47:16,040 --> 01:47:20,000
Speaker 4: single exchange they have is actually communicating something else and

1794
01:47:20,040 --> 01:47:24,920
Speaker 4: it's wild. Forgery is the sad curse of antiquities. At

1795
01:47:24,920 --> 01:47:29,400
Speaker 4: the moment, only two pieces of questionable providence in the gallery.

1796
01:47:29,360 --> 01:47:31,120
Speaker 4: Yea insane stuff.

1797
01:47:31,320 --> 01:47:34,720
Speaker 2: It's great, it's insane writing, and it's it's perfect that

1798
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:37,880
Speaker 2: like she keeps trying to like get some sort of

1799
01:47:38,000 --> 01:47:41,200
Speaker 2: acknowledgment that she's one. That's all she wants out of

1800
01:47:41,200 --> 01:47:44,080
Speaker 2: this is for him to basically she's actually kind of

1801
01:47:44,080 --> 01:47:46,400
Speaker 2: desperate for him to say you did good, kid, you

1802
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:49,519
Speaker 2: cos it's crazy and all he does is through shade at.

1803
01:47:49,439 --> 01:47:53,480
Speaker 4: Her, like shit, sucker, villions.

1804
01:47:53,080 --> 01:47:57,240
Speaker 2: Arelready gone, you dip shit fascist, like you fucking failed

1805
01:47:57,280 --> 01:48:00,240
Speaker 2: to fl like referring to him elf.

1806
01:48:00,280 --> 01:48:03,600
Speaker 4: And in some ways her as like as an antiquity,

1807
01:48:03,720 --> 01:48:05,720
Speaker 4: like like like you said, like he is tired, he

1808
01:48:05,800 --> 01:48:08,160
Speaker 4: is done. He is he's kind of a relic for

1809
01:48:08,360 --> 01:48:09,919
Speaker 4: the current era of the rebellions.

1810
01:48:09,960 --> 01:48:11,640
Speaker 2: And you don't know it yet, but so are you.

1811
01:48:12,240 --> 01:48:15,599
Speaker 4: Yes, and so is so is her. Only two pieces

1812
01:48:15,640 --> 01:48:20,240
Speaker 4: of questionable providence are in the gallery. Amazing. So Luthen

1813
01:48:20,320 --> 01:48:23,240
Speaker 4: hands Dedra a ceremonial dagger. She asks if it's real.

1814
01:48:23,680 --> 01:48:29,240
Speaker 4: He smiles and remarks, we still don't know. And it's like,

1815
01:48:29,520 --> 01:48:33,880
Speaker 4: it's amazing. I get every single line. It's it's it's

1816
01:48:34,439 --> 01:48:37,240
Speaker 4: it's like this screenwriter's play with us just amazing. I

1817
01:48:37,240 --> 01:48:40,800
Speaker 4: think Tom Bisseol and Tony Gilroy uh for these episodes.

1818
01:48:41,000 --> 01:48:46,040
Speaker 4: Just phenomenal. Dedra. Now I'm nervous, Luthed, you've come all

1819
01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:50,640
Speaker 4: this way. And then she unveils this, this artifact that

1820
01:48:50,680 --> 01:48:53,400
Speaker 4: she is brought to Luthen for evaluation. She says, it's

1821
01:48:53,439 --> 01:48:56,679
Speaker 4: a little damaged perhaps, but I'd say it's held its value,

1822
01:48:56,880 --> 01:48:59,559
Speaker 4: as she looks Luthen up and down again, same thing again,

1823
01:48:59,760 --> 01:49:03,200
Speaker 4: singing very efficient. Luthen is a little damage, but he

1824
01:49:03,200 --> 01:49:07,200
Speaker 4: has held his value. And Dedra reveals the vintage Imperial

1825
01:49:07,200 --> 01:49:11,719
Speaker 4: StarPath unit that first brought Luthen's operation under Dedra's eye.

1826
01:49:12,600 --> 01:49:15,719
Speaker 4: And now that like both of them have their cards

1827
01:49:15,760 --> 01:49:19,120
Speaker 4: like displayed on the table, they get to exchange a

1828
01:49:19,120 --> 01:49:21,920
Speaker 4: little bit more clearly without having to use these like

1829
01:49:22,040 --> 01:49:26,080
Speaker 4: coded coded phrases like they were before, and they had

1830
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:29,200
Speaker 4: this fascinating back and forth. She talks about how Luthan's

1831
01:49:29,240 --> 01:49:32,320
Speaker 4: been hiding in the shelter of imperial peace and quiet

1832
01:49:32,320 --> 01:49:35,719
Speaker 4: and just wants to burn the galaxy down, and Luthan

1833
01:49:35,760 --> 01:49:39,040
Speaker 4: gets gets to poke at her for how he's been

1834
01:49:39,080 --> 01:49:42,479
Speaker 4: aware of her this entire time and she's only learned

1835
01:49:42,479 --> 01:49:46,599
Speaker 4: who he is. Quote, I've known you all along. Hardly

1836
01:49:46,680 --> 01:49:50,840
Speaker 4: seems fair. She says, you disgusted me everything you stand for,

1837
01:49:51,200 --> 01:49:54,600
Speaker 4: and he says, do you know why freedom scares you?

1838
01:49:55,160 --> 01:49:57,240
Speaker 4: This is what Dedra's last arc is like really about,

1839
01:49:57,240 --> 01:50:00,920
Speaker 4: and it eventually, you know, paradoxically leads to leads to

1840
01:50:01,000 --> 01:50:01,479
Speaker 4: her fate.

1841
01:50:02,120 --> 01:50:02,240
Speaker 7: Now.

1842
01:50:02,240 --> 01:50:05,280
Speaker 4: I think probably the best line in this little exchange

1843
01:50:05,439 --> 01:50:08,719
Speaker 4: is Luthan telling Deadrea, quote, you're too late. The rebellion

1844
01:50:08,800 --> 01:50:12,760
Speaker 4: isn't here anymore. It's flown away. It's everywhere. Now there's

1845
01:50:12,800 --> 01:50:15,479
Speaker 4: a whole galaxy out there waiting to disgust you.

1846
01:50:15,640 --> 01:50:21,120
Speaker 2: Great light. Yeah again, it's' he's this whole time, he's

1847
01:50:21,160 --> 01:50:24,000
Speaker 2: been like increasingly cooking her like.

1848
01:50:25,000 --> 01:50:27,640
Speaker 4: And also cooking his hard drive by time that's his

1849
01:50:27,720 --> 01:50:28,800
Speaker 4: heart drive burns up.

1850
01:50:29,240 --> 01:50:32,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's just it's just some great

1851
01:50:32,640 --> 01:50:35,080
Speaker 2: some great stuff and the Dedro we get some great

1852
01:50:35,120 --> 01:50:37,960
Speaker 2: face acting. Oh yeah from what is it? Denise is

1853
01:50:38,000 --> 01:50:38,519
Speaker 2: her name? Right?

1854
01:50:38,800 --> 01:50:39,120
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1855
01:50:39,200 --> 01:50:42,200
Speaker 2: Gow I think where you just see in a second,

1856
01:50:42,240 --> 01:50:45,320
Speaker 2: she sees the smoke and then Luthan collapses because he

1857
01:50:45,360 --> 01:50:49,000
Speaker 2: has stabbed himself in the heart, which is also like

1858
01:50:49,080 --> 01:50:51,679
Speaker 2: it serves as another kind of rappost to every argument

1859
01:50:51,720 --> 01:50:55,040
Speaker 2: that she's been making, like it's his ultimate counter to

1860
01:50:55,439 --> 01:50:58,840
Speaker 2: her claims that like you're fundamentally selfish, You're just doing

1861
01:50:58,880 --> 01:51:02,360
Speaker 2: this for yourself and your own you know, desire chaos.

1862
01:51:02,560 --> 01:51:05,760
Speaker 2: He's like, no, bitch, I'm gonna stab myself in the heart,

1863
01:51:06,680 --> 01:51:08,800
Speaker 2: Like you don't know what commitment is.

1864
01:51:09,240 --> 01:51:09,719
Speaker 5: It's great.

1865
01:51:09,760 --> 01:51:13,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, he uses this, uses this ceremonial dagger that he

1866
01:51:14,080 --> 01:51:17,280
Speaker 4: that he earlier hands to Dedra and stabs himself so

1867
01:51:17,320 --> 01:51:19,040
Speaker 4: that the Empire will be able to torture and try

1868
01:51:19,080 --> 01:51:21,679
Speaker 4: to extract information from him about the rebellion.

1869
01:51:21,880 --> 01:51:24,360
Speaker 6: But you gotta have some explosives, like you can't be

1870
01:51:24,439 --> 01:51:26,920
Speaker 6: relying on staggering yourself with me dagger.

1871
01:51:27,240 --> 01:51:30,519
Speaker 4: This is this is like a screenwriting thing, like det

1872
01:51:30,720 --> 01:51:32,519
Speaker 4: has to get out of this. They have to they

1873
01:51:32,560 --> 01:51:36,439
Speaker 4: have to access the computer later. Come on, I think

1874
01:51:36,479 --> 01:51:40,360
Speaker 4: I think this is this is very like poetically written. Yeah, yeah,

1875
01:51:40,560 --> 01:51:42,799
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's beautiful. I like like the romance

1876
01:51:42,840 --> 01:51:46,800
Speaker 4: of it. Yeah, but man, Dedra fucked up so bad here.

1877
01:51:47,560 --> 01:51:51,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, fundamentally ruins absolutely her entire life.

1878
01:51:51,360 --> 01:51:54,080
Speaker 4: The emotion's really got the better of her. She really

1879
01:51:54,120 --> 01:51:57,080
Speaker 4: wanted to like like win one over on on access

1880
01:51:57,120 --> 01:52:00,439
Speaker 4: to like validate herself and her obsession. This we like

1881
01:52:00,520 --> 01:52:03,599
Speaker 4: Cyril does, and it fucking bites her in the ass.

1882
01:52:03,960 --> 01:52:07,600
Speaker 6: It destroys the empires, the entire empire.

1883
01:52:07,920 --> 01:52:13,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I like that they they had her simultaneously.

1884
01:52:14,040 --> 01:52:17,240
Speaker 2: She's both right and that if she had been listened to,

1885
01:52:17,400 --> 01:52:21,320
Speaker 2: she could have stopped the rebel victory. But also she

1886
01:52:22,240 --> 01:52:26,160
Speaker 2: fundamentally like destroys the Death Star as a result of

1887
01:52:26,160 --> 01:52:28,040
Speaker 2: her insistence on being right.

1888
01:52:30,479 --> 01:52:34,200
Speaker 6: It fits into that old Marxist category of objectively revolutionary.

1889
01:52:34,320 --> 01:52:35,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, just by like.

1890
01:52:35,840 --> 01:52:38,719
Speaker 4: How she fucked this up specifically, and.

1891
01:52:39,000 --> 01:52:42,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, get to well, you know, I think we've talked

1892
01:52:42,160 --> 01:52:45,000
Speaker 6: about how how like the Death Star plans got stolen

1893
01:52:45,080 --> 01:52:48,040
Speaker 6: like from her fucking art, right, Yeah.

1894
01:52:47,640 --> 01:52:50,000
Speaker 4: Or like the the the learning of the Death Star

1895
01:52:50,520 --> 01:52:52,240
Speaker 4: existence through the hard.

1896
01:52:52,120 --> 01:52:54,080
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, sorry, said yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they

1897
01:52:54,080 --> 01:52:55,080
Speaker 8: don't have the plans yet.

1898
01:52:55,560 --> 01:52:59,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, So Lutheran's transferred to the hospital, and then we

1899
01:52:59,760 --> 01:53:03,719
Speaker 4: get a flashback with Luthin as an early Imperial Army

1900
01:53:03,760 --> 01:53:08,320
Speaker 4: sergeant involved in a massacre on Claya's home planet. We

1901
01:53:08,400 --> 01:53:12,320
Speaker 4: see him like like huddled over in his ship with

1902
01:53:12,360 --> 01:53:15,280
Speaker 4: a flask, repeating the words make.

1903
01:53:15,120 --> 01:53:17,560
Speaker 2: It, make it stop, make it stop.

1904
01:53:17,560 --> 01:53:21,280
Speaker 4: As like sounds of like carnage and destruction go on

1905
01:53:21,400 --> 01:53:22,200
Speaker 4: in the background.

1906
01:53:22,479 --> 01:53:24,599
Speaker 2: What's what's interesting to me is, yeah, they have You're

1907
01:53:24,640 --> 01:53:27,479
Speaker 2: basically just hearing what's happening outside. He's in an Imperial

1908
01:53:27,600 --> 01:53:31,120
Speaker 2: Army uniform, and you're hearing like radio chatter, and it's

1909
01:53:31,240 --> 01:53:33,679
Speaker 2: radio chatter that could have come from like any war

1910
01:53:33,720 --> 01:53:36,360
Speaker 2: of the last twenty years. Like it's very much modern

1911
01:53:36,680 --> 01:53:39,160
Speaker 2: radio call. It's it sounds like a lot of the

1912
01:53:39,200 --> 01:53:42,800
Speaker 2: shit you heard and like the Collateral Murder video, like

1913
01:53:43,040 --> 01:53:45,040
Speaker 2: some of the stuff that got leaked by Chelsea Manning

1914
01:53:45,080 --> 01:53:47,680
Speaker 2: where people are like, yeah, hit every everything on that

1915
01:53:47,760 --> 01:53:51,160
Speaker 2: hill dies, you know, anything past this this point in

1916
01:53:51,200 --> 01:53:53,559
Speaker 2: this like line of buildings, anyone you see on the

1917
01:53:53,600 --> 01:53:56,719
Speaker 2: heat scope, kill them, Like it's that kind of stuff, right, Yeah,

1918
01:53:56,760 --> 01:53:59,760
Speaker 2: And it's it's it's very much like it's very non

1919
01:53:59,800 --> 01:54:00,880
Speaker 2: st Our Wars chatter.

1920
01:54:01,320 --> 01:54:04,080
Speaker 4: You know, he's he's like horrified at like what he's doing.

1921
01:54:04,120 --> 01:54:05,640
Speaker 4: He's trying to findst to cope with it.

1922
01:54:05,880 --> 01:54:09,120
Speaker 2: He's drinking out of a flask and yeah, just like

1923
01:54:09,840 --> 01:54:12,360
Speaker 2: repeatedly repeating to himself, make it stop.

1924
01:54:13,080 --> 01:54:16,639
Speaker 4: Just this like very short scene like recontextualizes a whole

1925
01:54:16,680 --> 01:54:20,160
Speaker 4: bunch of things about Luthern's character, Yes, including his behavior

1926
01:54:20,320 --> 01:54:23,360
Speaker 4: on Ferrex during during the riot, where he like doesn't

1927
01:54:23,360 --> 01:54:26,720
Speaker 4: get involved and instead looks on from a distance with

1928
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:30,240
Speaker 4: like a very like a very blank expression. And like

1929
01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:34,120
Speaker 4: when I first saw that episode, to me, it felt

1930
01:54:34,160 --> 01:54:38,600
Speaker 4: like Luthen was like first confronted with like the fatality

1931
01:54:38,640 --> 01:54:41,280
Speaker 4: that he's dealing with, like like confronted with like the

1932
01:54:41,320 --> 01:54:46,040
Speaker 4: consequences for actually engaging in revolution because he's always been

1933
01:54:46,160 --> 01:54:47,880
Speaker 4: kind of in the shadows. He's been more of this

1934
01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:51,280
Speaker 4: like orchestrator. He doesn't see like that like the tactile

1935
01:54:51,960 --> 01:54:56,160
Speaker 4: death that accompanies his actions. It's like that's how I

1936
01:54:56,160 --> 01:54:58,560
Speaker 4: first saw that scene, and now this has been fully

1937
01:54:58,560 --> 01:55:02,000
Speaker 4: recontextualized as like Eric's is like a PTSD moment for him,

1938
01:55:02,040 --> 01:55:04,560
Speaker 4: Like this is that's that's not the first time he's

1939
01:55:04,600 --> 01:55:05,320
Speaker 4: seeing combat.

1940
01:55:05,440 --> 01:55:06,000
Speaker 2: Yes, this is.

1941
01:55:06,240 --> 01:55:08,920
Speaker 4: This is it changes the way you can now look

1942
01:55:09,000 --> 01:55:11,360
Speaker 4: back at that scene, which is very very cool.

1943
01:55:11,600 --> 01:55:14,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's also interesting to think that he's putting

1944
01:55:14,520 --> 01:55:17,160
Speaker 2: himself in the perspective as much as anything of the

1945
01:55:17,160 --> 01:55:21,240
Speaker 2: imperials doing the massacre. Yes, yeah, as opposed to the

1946
01:55:21,280 --> 01:55:24,960
Speaker 2: civilian victims of the massacre. I read an interview with

1947
01:55:25,200 --> 01:55:29,440
Speaker 2: Tony where apparently because they did not have Lutheran's backstory

1948
01:55:29,600 --> 01:55:32,600
Speaker 2: set up in season one, like they didn't fully know

1949
01:55:32,680 --> 01:55:33,840
Speaker 2: where he was going to go and.

1950
01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:35,200
Speaker 4: Have a single one nail Yeah.

1951
01:55:35,480 --> 01:55:38,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was apparently Scarsguard who was like, don't

1952
01:55:38,800 --> 01:55:41,880
Speaker 2: have him be another person who's pissed, like who just

1953
01:55:41,920 --> 01:55:44,840
Speaker 2: hates the Empire because it took everything from him, like like.

1954
01:55:44,880 --> 01:55:47,200
Speaker 4: A normal revenge story where like the Empire like tells

1955
01:55:47,200 --> 01:55:49,400
Speaker 4: his family so that he becomes an insurgent.

1956
01:55:49,520 --> 01:55:52,720
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, and I really I think it's beautiful that, like, yeah,

1957
01:55:52,720 --> 01:55:56,080
Speaker 2: his backstory is that, no, he was made complicit. Like however,

1958
01:55:56,160 --> 01:55:58,640
Speaker 2: whatever got him into the army in the first place,

1959
01:55:58,680 --> 01:56:01,200
Speaker 2: maybe just conscription. He may not have even had a

1960
01:56:01,280 --> 01:56:04,920
Speaker 2: choice to join, but the Empire forces him to do,

1961
01:56:05,080 --> 01:56:07,680
Speaker 2: like puts him in a position and he's it's as

1962
01:56:07,760 --> 01:56:10,360
Speaker 2: much discussed with himself that he goes along with it

1963
01:56:10,400 --> 01:56:13,720
Speaker 2: as far as he does. And you get in those

1964
01:56:13,840 --> 01:56:16,360
Speaker 2: lines that he's just repeating him to himself over and

1965
01:56:16,400 --> 01:56:18,600
Speaker 2: over again as he like make it Like that's his

1966
01:56:18,680 --> 01:56:21,680
Speaker 2: whole motivation, right, Like that's the next twenty years of

1967
01:56:21,680 --> 01:56:23,520
Speaker 2: his life. Are him trying to make it stop?

1968
01:56:23,840 --> 01:56:26,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the title of the episode. Yeah, well we'll

1969
01:56:26,400 --> 01:56:28,440
Speaker 4: talk more about that and his motivation at the end

1970
01:56:28,480 --> 01:56:31,880
Speaker 4: when we discuss kind of Claya, speaking of which, in

1971
01:56:31,920 --> 01:56:34,480
Speaker 4: this flashback, it is shot from the perspective of Claya

1972
01:56:35,080 --> 01:56:38,400
Speaker 4: hiding in like a cubby on on this ship. Yeah,

1973
01:56:38,920 --> 01:56:43,760
Speaker 4: and Luthen named I think Layer Lar which is Lair.

1974
01:56:44,520 --> 01:56:49,720
Speaker 2: He is Sergeant Lair is original name. Well, we don't

1975
01:56:49,720 --> 01:56:51,560
Speaker 2: know what his first was, but he just reverses it.

1976
01:56:51,680 --> 01:56:55,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, which no, no, but like this is this is

1977
01:56:55,200 --> 01:56:58,640
Speaker 9: this is also like poetic, right, this is this is

1978
01:56:58,720 --> 01:57:01,480
Speaker 9: this is this is Star Wars poeoetry, right, it's like

1979
01:57:01,520 --> 01:57:03,600
Speaker 9: poetry at rhymes popseek wise.

1980
01:57:03,640 --> 01:57:04,120
Speaker 4: Don't do that.

1981
01:57:05,000 --> 01:57:06,400
Speaker 2: I just I just got to put this in there.

1982
01:57:06,640 --> 01:57:07,160
Speaker 2: Don't do that.

1983
01:57:08,640 --> 01:57:12,640
Speaker 4: Do better. But Sergeant Layer finds Claya as like a

1984
01:57:12,720 --> 01:57:16,160
Speaker 4: six year old hiding hiding on this ship. We then

1985
01:57:16,200 --> 01:57:18,760
Speaker 4: go back to the present as Claya infiltrates a space

1986
01:57:18,840 --> 01:57:23,120
Speaker 4: hospital to get to Luthen. Intercut with flashbacks showing how

1987
01:57:23,360 --> 01:57:28,080
Speaker 4: Luthen used his military experience to train Claya in insurgent warfare.

1988
01:57:29,160 --> 01:57:32,200
Speaker 4: So here we see like Luthen being kept alive in

1989
01:57:32,280 --> 01:57:37,240
Speaker 4: this Corroiscant hospital for later interrogation, and then suddenly Dedra

1990
01:57:37,440 --> 01:57:41,080
Speaker 4: is arrested in the hospital by an ISB. Marshall for

1991
01:57:41,360 --> 01:57:44,440
Speaker 4: at first unclear reasons which we will get into later.

1992
01:57:44,720 --> 01:57:47,800
Speaker 4: The ICP has found Lonnie's body, so there's a dead

1993
01:57:47,880 --> 01:57:52,000
Speaker 4: yes B agent in Cororriscant. They've heard of how Dedra

1994
01:57:52,080 --> 01:57:55,560
Speaker 4: did this raid without authorization without notifying the agent now

1995
01:57:55,560 --> 01:57:59,120
Speaker 4: in charge of the Axis investigation, and then she's taken

1996
01:57:59,120 --> 01:58:02,280
Speaker 4: into custody. In these flashbacks, we see Luthen and Clia

1997
01:58:02,480 --> 01:58:07,839
Speaker 4: going town to town pawning historical artifacts while he teaches

1998
01:58:07,920 --> 01:58:11,800
Speaker 4: young Claya insurgent warfare. One of the most devastating exchanges

1999
01:58:11,880 --> 01:58:15,840
Speaker 4: is when Luthen describes Claia as his daughter to a

2000
01:58:15,880 --> 01:58:20,440
Speaker 4: shopkeeper to help like negotiate a price, and afterwards Claya asks,

2001
01:58:20,680 --> 01:58:25,480
Speaker 4: am I your daughter now? He replies when it's useful.

2002
01:58:25,440 --> 01:58:28,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's and then he and then he says, I'm Luthen,

2003
01:58:29,000 --> 01:58:33,320
Speaker 2: you're Clia. Like that's all we need to know right now,

2004
01:58:33,720 --> 01:58:34,920
Speaker 2: that that's.

2005
01:58:34,760 --> 01:58:35,400
Speaker 4: Who we are now.

2006
01:58:35,720 --> 01:58:36,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2007
01:58:36,920 --> 01:58:39,160
Speaker 4: Claia says, like, I'll have to think about that, and

2008
01:58:39,200 --> 01:58:41,760
Speaker 4: Luthen says, sometimes it's not up to us.

2009
01:58:42,400 --> 01:58:42,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2010
01:58:42,920 --> 01:58:47,800
Speaker 4: Another exchange happens after Claio watches this like Imperial firing

2011
01:58:47,880 --> 01:58:52,800
Speaker 4: line kill a batch of kids who are allegedly suspected

2012
01:58:52,880 --> 01:58:56,480
Speaker 4: of shooting a stormtrooper. I think it probably could have

2013
01:58:56,560 --> 01:58:59,840
Speaker 4: actually been Luthen, It's unclear, and it essentially just demonstrates

2014
01:58:59,880 --> 01:59:04,600
Speaker 4: like collective punishment, right, And Claiya gets very upset at

2015
01:59:04,680 --> 01:59:09,320
Speaker 4: watching this massacre and runs off to Luthen and also,

2016
01:59:09,400 --> 01:59:11,560
Speaker 4: like interestingly, like when Luthen knows that this is going

2017
01:59:11,640 --> 01:59:13,800
Speaker 4: to happen, he like chooses to like not watch. He's like,

2018
01:59:13,800 --> 01:59:15,640
Speaker 4: we don't need to be here, we can we can,

2019
01:59:15,720 --> 01:59:18,040
Speaker 4: we can just leave, but but Claia chooses to stay

2020
01:59:18,040 --> 01:59:22,240
Speaker 4: and watch and then runs back to him, and he

2021
01:59:22,240 --> 01:59:25,800
Speaker 4: he tells her we fight to win. That means we

2022
01:59:25,960 --> 01:59:29,120
Speaker 4: lose and lose and lose and lose until we're ready.

2023
01:59:29,560 --> 01:59:31,880
Speaker 4: All you know now is how much you hate you

2024
01:59:32,000 --> 01:59:35,200
Speaker 4: bank that you hide, that you keep it alive until

2025
01:59:35,240 --> 01:59:36,680
Speaker 4: you know what to do with it.

2026
01:59:37,200 --> 01:59:41,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love both that. He's he's attempting to

2027
01:59:41,880 --> 01:59:44,760
Speaker 2: give her as much like agency as he can within

2028
01:59:44,840 --> 01:59:49,440
Speaker 2: this situation where he's also like crafting her into a person.

2029
01:59:49,520 --> 01:59:51,320
Speaker 2: And so like, if she decides she wants to go

2030
01:59:51,320 --> 01:59:53,600
Speaker 2: see this massacre, He'll let her do it. Like he's

2031
01:59:53,640 --> 01:59:56,040
Speaker 2: not going to he's not going to try to make her.

2032
01:59:56,320 --> 01:59:57,840
Speaker 2: But if that's what she wants, he's not going to

2033
01:59:57,880 --> 02:00:00,480
Speaker 2: stop her. And then when she's seeing what she needs

2034
02:00:00,520 --> 02:00:02,720
Speaker 2: to see, he's going to give her the best advice

2035
02:00:02,760 --> 02:00:06,080
Speaker 2: that he can give her. There's another line coming where's

2036
02:00:06,440 --> 02:00:08,960
Speaker 2: she asks if he's scared, and he's like, only about

2037
02:00:08,960 --> 02:00:12,240
Speaker 2: what I'm doing to you, right that like you, But

2038
02:00:12,360 --> 02:00:15,120
Speaker 2: he is still deeply he feels deeply compromised by this

2039
02:00:15,160 --> 02:00:18,400
Speaker 2: position he's put himself in with this only other person

2040
02:00:18,440 --> 02:00:19,960
Speaker 2: that he really can trust.

2041
02:00:20,440 --> 02:00:20,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2042
02:00:20,880 --> 02:00:24,080
Speaker 4: They do their first like large scale direct action together. Yeah,

2043
02:00:24,120 --> 02:00:27,320
Speaker 4: on the Emperor's home planet of Naboo. He teaches her

2044
02:00:27,360 --> 02:00:29,640
Speaker 4: how to blend into the surroundings as they remote debt

2045
02:00:29,720 --> 02:00:33,760
Speaker 4: night and explosive planted on a bridge, while in the present,

2046
02:00:33,880 --> 02:00:36,840
Speaker 4: Clia disguises herself as a nurse to disappear into the

2047
02:00:36,880 --> 02:00:39,680
Speaker 4: hospital where Luthern's being held, and blows up the hospital

2048
02:00:39,720 --> 02:00:41,840
Speaker 4: parking lot as a distraction to get to Lutheran. These

2049
02:00:41,840 --> 02:00:44,720
Speaker 4: two things mirror each other. It's like poetry at rhymes.

2050
02:00:45,040 --> 02:00:49,280
Speaker 4: Clia says to Luthin, you're afraid, He says, I'm only

2051
02:00:49,320 --> 02:00:52,440
Speaker 4: afraid of what I'm doing to you, as he hands

2052
02:00:52,480 --> 02:00:55,200
Speaker 4: this child a detonator. Yeah.

2053
02:00:55,320 --> 02:00:59,120
Speaker 2: Man, she's not willing to she can't make herself use

2054
02:00:59,160 --> 02:00:59,600
Speaker 2: it yet.

2055
02:00:59,680 --> 02:01:02,280
Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like she was almost willing to

2056
02:01:02,560 --> 02:01:05,400
Speaker 4: psych herself up. Luth and actually took it away and

2057
02:01:06,120 --> 02:01:07,360
Speaker 4: had himself do it.

2058
02:01:07,920 --> 02:01:08,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2059
02:01:08,760 --> 02:01:11,200
Speaker 4: But that scene by itself where he's like telling her

2060
02:01:11,360 --> 02:01:13,080
Speaker 4: not to like look at it, to make sure you're

2061
02:01:13,120 --> 02:01:16,240
Speaker 4: like looking at me, only turn after everyone else has turned.

2062
02:01:16,720 --> 02:01:19,320
Speaker 4: Very fun stuff happening in Star Wars.

2063
02:01:19,760 --> 02:01:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it's great, Like the whole the decision

2064
02:01:23,640 --> 02:01:27,160
Speaker 2: he made he makes here is like, like you see

2065
02:01:27,160 --> 02:01:30,560
Speaker 2: a lot about their relationship and again this like how

2066
02:01:30,600 --> 02:01:33,960
Speaker 2: deeply compromised he feels by it. Of both, like I

2067
02:01:34,040 --> 02:01:37,040
Speaker 2: have to get this person ready for what's necessary. And

2068
02:01:37,080 --> 02:01:40,680
Speaker 2: also I have to protect her from like the worst

2069
02:01:40,720 --> 02:01:42,840
Speaker 2: things that we're going to have to do together. Like,

2070
02:01:42,880 --> 02:01:46,920
Speaker 2: he does want to remain primarily the one complicit, so

2071
02:01:47,200 --> 02:01:51,000
Speaker 2: I think in part because he does believe, I mean fundamentally,

2072
02:01:51,040 --> 02:01:53,160
Speaker 2: that's the core of his character. He does believe she

2073
02:01:53,240 --> 02:01:54,840
Speaker 2: has a future outside.

2074
02:01:54,480 --> 02:01:58,040
Speaker 4: Totally is That's the entire point of what he's doing. Yeah,

2075
02:01:58,160 --> 02:02:00,160
Speaker 4: do you know what else is necessary, Robert.

2076
02:02:00,160 --> 02:02:02,920
Speaker 2: For us to throw to ads because otherwise we can't

2077
02:02:03,000 --> 02:02:10,080
Speaker 2: keep this moveable feast on the road.

2078
02:02:15,040 --> 02:02:20,840
Speaker 4: Okay, we are back back in the present day on Corussant.

2079
02:02:21,360 --> 02:02:27,160
Speaker 4: Claia finally reaches Luthen in his hospital room, and I guess,

2080
02:02:27,160 --> 02:02:29,840
Speaker 4: like leading up to this, to this moment, it's unclear

2081
02:02:29,880 --> 02:02:32,440
Speaker 4: if she's going to try to like rescue him, like

2082
02:02:32,440 --> 02:02:35,640
Speaker 4: like extract him, and no, there's no time for that.

2083
02:02:36,200 --> 02:02:39,280
Speaker 4: She takes him off life support and lets him die.

2084
02:02:39,680 --> 02:02:43,360
Speaker 4: There is no escape for his character. Yeah, Like Luthen

2085
02:02:43,560 --> 02:02:47,000
Speaker 4: never gets to see that sunrise, but he did everything

2086
02:02:47,040 --> 02:02:50,600
Speaker 4: he could to give the rebellion the best chance, and

2087
02:02:50,680 --> 02:02:53,720
Speaker 4: Claia gets to finish and like live out what he started.

2088
02:02:54,080 --> 02:02:56,880
Speaker 4: He wants to give Claia that sunrise and like this

2089
02:02:56,880 --> 02:03:00,400
Speaker 4: this relates to his core motivation as a character. He's

2090
02:03:00,400 --> 02:03:03,280
Speaker 4: not getting revenge against the Empire for killing his family

2091
02:03:03,360 --> 02:03:06,240
Speaker 4: or something like that kind of cliched stories is not

2092
02:03:06,400 --> 02:03:10,800
Speaker 4: what they're doing here. Instead, this is all all about Clia. Yeah,

2093
02:03:10,840 --> 02:03:14,720
Speaker 4: it's about how he's like found Claya and both of

2094
02:03:14,760 --> 02:03:18,280
Speaker 4: them are broken by what he has done. So then

2095
02:03:18,320 --> 02:03:21,360
Speaker 4: he spends the rest of his life building the rebellion

2096
02:03:21,520 --> 02:03:24,760
Speaker 4: for Claia so that she can live on and she

2097
02:03:25,520 --> 02:03:29,840
Speaker 4: can beat the Empire. And that's the entire point of him.

2098
02:03:29,920 --> 02:03:31,760
Speaker 4: Like that, that is what's driving him. He is like

2099
02:03:31,800 --> 02:03:35,520
Speaker 4: the most selfless character. Tony in an interview said, quote,

2100
02:03:35,840 --> 02:03:38,120
Speaker 4: there are only a certain number of reasons that you

2101
02:03:38,160 --> 02:03:40,560
Speaker 4: can change your life, and one of them is just

2102
02:03:40,720 --> 02:03:44,000
Speaker 4: absolute self discussed. So we found a way for him

2103
02:03:44,040 --> 02:03:46,839
Speaker 4: to have a belly full of it at the right moment.

2104
02:03:47,240 --> 02:03:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love that that, Like, that's his whole

2105
02:03:49,160 --> 02:03:53,320
Speaker 2: motivation ultimately is like undoing the only part of what

2106
02:03:53,360 --> 02:03:55,600
Speaker 2: he was involved in that he can undo, which is

2107
02:03:56,200 --> 02:04:00,920
Speaker 2: saving this person. And like saving this person involved destroying

2108
02:04:00,960 --> 02:04:03,680
Speaker 2: the thing that took her life away from her.

2109
02:04:04,320 --> 02:04:09,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, the entire apparatus of the Empire yeah, yeah, I

2110
02:04:09,440 --> 02:04:11,920
Speaker 4: think we're kind of wrapped up with this episode here,

2111
02:04:11,960 --> 02:04:17,600
Speaker 4: but like the Clay hospital like infiltration sequence is superb,

2112
02:04:18,280 --> 02:04:21,000
Speaker 4: so good, like one one person doing all of this

2113
02:04:21,040 --> 02:04:26,200
Speaker 4: stuff to the absolute befuddlement of like the Imperial Troopers.

2114
02:04:26,560 --> 02:04:29,840
Speaker 4: She's really embodying the line from Rogue one, make ten

2115
02:04:29,920 --> 02:04:32,840
Speaker 4: men feel like a hundred Yeah, and yeah, she's able

2116
02:04:32,880 --> 02:04:35,040
Speaker 4: to infiltrate this hospital, like she's working with a team

2117
02:04:35,080 --> 02:04:37,440
Speaker 4: of like ten people and it's and it's just her

2118
02:04:37,800 --> 02:04:41,200
Speaker 4: shout out to the Granny alien in the elevator, very

2119
02:04:41,400 --> 02:04:42,880
Speaker 4: very great little comment.

2120
02:04:43,000 --> 02:04:43,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2121
02:04:45,680 --> 02:04:48,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, but unlessly either have anything else to say about

2122
02:04:48,800 --> 02:04:49,640
Speaker 4: episode ten.

2123
02:04:49,760 --> 02:04:52,520
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I like this. This is obviously like

2124
02:04:52,680 --> 02:04:56,400
Speaker 2: my favorite episode of this particular batch.

2125
02:04:57,120 --> 02:04:59,360
Speaker 4: Maybe the best in the whole series. Like this is

2126
02:04:59,520 --> 02:05:00,400
Speaker 4: absolutely yeah.

2127
02:05:00,800 --> 02:05:03,120
Speaker 2: I love the Luthen and Claya moments. I love seeing

2128
02:05:03,200 --> 02:05:05,800
Speaker 2: like how at the same time this like hint when

2129
02:05:05,840 --> 02:05:08,480
Speaker 2: you're seeing them kind of haggle over the price of

2130
02:05:08,520 --> 02:05:11,840
Speaker 2: this antiquity that they've got that like, Okay, So Clay

2131
02:05:11,880 --> 02:05:17,440
Speaker 2: always had this degree of like cunning and this ability

2132
02:05:17,480 --> 02:05:20,640
Speaker 2: to kind of like recognize what's going on, which probably

2133
02:05:20,640 --> 02:05:23,240
Speaker 2: hows you survived in the first place. Right, she's she

2134
02:05:23,440 --> 02:05:27,240
Speaker 2: was always someone who saw more than other people, which.

2135
02:05:27,040 --> 02:05:30,720
Speaker 4: She's the girl's Yeah.

2136
02:05:30,760 --> 02:05:32,280
Speaker 2: And at the same time, you get this piece of

2137
02:05:32,360 --> 02:05:35,720
Speaker 2: Luthan like there must have been like whatever he was

2138
02:05:35,760 --> 02:05:38,480
Speaker 2: before he joined the military, it was somebody who had

2139
02:05:38,480 --> 02:05:41,800
Speaker 2: this kind of deep knowledge of antiquities and probably this

2140
02:05:41,920 --> 02:05:45,120
Speaker 2: desire to make something of his life other than what

2141
02:05:45,280 --> 02:05:47,280
Speaker 2: became of it and all that he's got left of

2142
02:05:47,320 --> 02:05:50,880
Speaker 2: it is like utilizing that real piece of himself to

2143
02:05:51,000 --> 02:05:54,640
Speaker 2: make a fake person, right, Like that's which is such

2144
02:05:54,680 --> 02:05:58,880
Speaker 2: an interesting character beat for him, that like this, this

2145
02:05:58,960 --> 02:06:01,520
Speaker 2: thing that is probably closest to the real Luthan, the

2146
02:06:01,520 --> 02:06:04,600
Speaker 2: one that existed before his military service, before the Empire

2147
02:06:04,680 --> 02:06:08,840
Speaker 2: ruined him, is completely remade in the service of making

2148
02:06:08,920 --> 02:06:10,200
Speaker 2: himself into something he's not.

2149
02:06:10,880 --> 02:06:13,520
Speaker 6: So when I first saw this, I was really worried

2150
02:06:13,680 --> 02:06:16,040
Speaker 6: because I think one of those interesting parts about Clay

2151
02:06:16,080 --> 02:06:17,840
Speaker 6: as a character is that she is the only person

2152
02:06:17,840 --> 02:06:20,160
Speaker 6: that Luthen trusts absolutely right, She's the only person that

2153
02:06:20,200 --> 02:06:22,560
Speaker 6: he She's fully as an equal. She's the only one

2154
02:06:22,560 --> 02:06:26,520
Speaker 6: who has all the information that he has. And you know,

2155
02:06:26,720 --> 02:06:28,640
Speaker 6: I was like kind of worried that it was Okay, Well,

2156
02:06:28,720 --> 02:06:31,480
Speaker 6: now she's effectively his daughter, and it's like, no, it's

2157
02:06:31,480 --> 02:06:34,960
Speaker 6: actually like she is still the only person like even

2158
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:37,520
Speaker 6: though Luthen has been sort of raising her is like

2159
02:06:37,600 --> 02:06:39,520
Speaker 6: he's been trying to raise her as an equal as

2160
02:06:39,600 --> 02:06:41,280
Speaker 6: much as much as he possibly can. I think that's

2161
02:06:41,320 --> 02:06:45,840
Speaker 6: a really really yeah, sort of fascinating like way for

2162
02:06:45,880 --> 02:06:46,720
Speaker 6: this thing to have gone.

2163
02:06:47,320 --> 02:06:49,840
Speaker 4: Like the actress of Claiya has said, like, like from

2164
02:06:49,920 --> 02:06:54,600
Speaker 4: Claya's perspective, like she doesn't really fully see Luthen like

2165
02:06:54,760 --> 02:06:58,240
Speaker 4: as her father figure because like inherently like he was

2166
02:06:58,280 --> 02:07:02,800
Speaker 4: like involved in the actual killing of like of her family,

2167
02:07:03,280 --> 02:07:05,680
Speaker 4: like she she is she has found a way to

2168
02:07:05,760 --> 02:07:08,720
Speaker 4: kind of love him through that. But it's it's not

2169
02:07:08,880 --> 02:07:12,000
Speaker 4: like it's not like that that like immediate familial love

2170
02:07:12,120 --> 02:07:14,720
Speaker 4: like it's it's it's it's a different rationalization that she

2171
02:07:14,760 --> 02:07:17,800
Speaker 4: can still like give him like a final kiss on

2172
02:07:17,920 --> 02:07:21,920
Speaker 4: his deathbed and like does like does care for him,

2173
02:07:22,000 --> 02:07:24,560
Speaker 4: but like it's so much more like complicated and murky

2174
02:07:24,600 --> 02:07:27,240
Speaker 4: and like like roped in with politics and roped in

2175
02:07:27,280 --> 02:07:28,200
Speaker 4: with Yeah.

2176
02:07:28,240 --> 02:07:30,400
Speaker 2: But here's here's the thing what I'll say about that,

2177
02:07:30,560 --> 02:07:32,560
Speaker 2: And and this is kind of my favorite part of

2178
02:07:32,600 --> 02:07:35,080
Speaker 2: that is I can see how she would be like

2179
02:07:35,640 --> 02:07:38,240
Speaker 2: this feeling I have towards him, like isn't like what

2180
02:07:38,320 --> 02:07:41,000
Speaker 2: someone would feel towards a father. But also she doesn't

2181
02:07:41,080 --> 02:07:44,680
Speaker 2: really know how people feel about their parents because she

2182
02:07:44,800 --> 02:07:46,360
Speaker 2: didn't get to have them very long.

2183
02:07:46,480 --> 02:07:49,680
Speaker 4: Keep people can't feel like that can feel about their father.

2184
02:07:50,440 --> 02:07:53,400
Speaker 2: Feeling both this deep sense of love and disgust towards

2185
02:07:53,440 --> 02:07:57,520
Speaker 2: your parents isn't normal experience, and she just doesn't writ

2186
02:07:57,600 --> 02:07:59,320
Speaker 2: I think maybe there's a degree in which she doesn't

2187
02:07:59,320 --> 02:08:01,600
Speaker 2: even really realize how how.

2188
02:08:01,360 --> 02:08:02,920
Speaker 5: Common that is because of.

2189
02:08:04,600 --> 02:08:08,240
Speaker 4: No, that's a good point. That's a good point. Yeah,

2190
02:08:08,280 --> 02:08:12,960
Speaker 4: all right. Episode eleven, who else knows? Krenick and Dedra

2191
02:08:13,160 --> 02:08:16,920
Speaker 4: queen out together? Hell yeah, look at look at them?

2192
02:08:17,040 --> 02:08:22,120
Speaker 4: Go so tetris in this interrogation chamber and Credit grills

2193
02:08:22,160 --> 02:08:25,760
Speaker 4: her about how this piece of information good, so good,

2194
02:08:26,480 --> 02:08:30,440
Speaker 4: how this piece of information has escaped containment and Dedra's

2195
02:08:30,560 --> 02:08:35,280
Speaker 4: Dedra's face strote this whole scene, Oh my gosh.

2196
02:08:35,320 --> 02:08:37,800
Speaker 2: She comes into it. You can tell she thinks I'm

2197
02:08:37,800 --> 02:08:39,360
Speaker 2: gonna get out of this. I'm gonna talk my way

2198
02:08:39,400 --> 02:08:42,640
Speaker 2: out of this. Yeah, surely I will sort this all out.

2199
02:08:44,600 --> 02:08:44,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2200
02:08:44,960 --> 02:08:48,000
Speaker 4: No, Once she realized this that this is actually about

2201
02:08:48,040 --> 02:08:51,080
Speaker 4: like the leakage of like the death Star plans and

2202
02:08:51,200 --> 02:08:55,000
Speaker 4: not just a simple raid on a rebel like weapons dealer.

2203
02:08:55,920 --> 02:08:59,040
Speaker 4: She realizes the kind of gravity of her situation. She

2204
02:08:59,040 --> 02:09:01,480
Speaker 4: she complains about how like he's been forced like scavenge

2205
02:09:01,520 --> 02:09:06,040
Speaker 4: for information because there's not like an efficient, efficient intel

2206
02:09:06,080 --> 02:09:10,680
Speaker 4: sharing operation across different imperial branches. H and Credit says

2207
02:09:10,720 --> 02:09:13,080
Speaker 4: to her, if you're not a rebel spy, you missed

2208
02:09:13,120 --> 02:09:16,520
Speaker 4: your calling, which is the biggest insult you could say.

2209
02:09:16,680 --> 02:09:21,480
Speaker 4: Oh my god, this destroys her. Yeah, like this is

2210
02:09:21,520 --> 02:09:24,320
Speaker 4: the this is the same mistake that like Cyril makes. Right,

2211
02:09:24,360 --> 02:09:27,120
Speaker 4: they're trying to like to like do this like try

2212
02:09:27,200 --> 02:09:27,880
Speaker 4: hard stuff.

2213
02:09:27,960 --> 02:09:32,120
Speaker 2: You think initiative is rewarded here exactly. Yeah, yeah, you know,

2214
02:09:32,320 --> 02:09:35,440
Speaker 2: you follow orders. You do not take your own initiative.

2215
02:09:35,480 --> 02:09:38,240
Speaker 2: You are not your own person. You follow what you're

2216
02:09:38,240 --> 02:09:40,760
Speaker 2: told to do. You don't take things into your own hands.

2217
02:09:41,280 --> 02:09:45,880
Speaker 2: This is how the whole system crumbles. Yeah, it's phenomenal.

2218
02:09:45,960 --> 02:09:49,000
Speaker 4: How like she is so much like you know, like

2219
02:09:49,040 --> 02:09:52,160
Speaker 4: it's especially in Cyril's eyes, right, she is like everything

2220
02:09:52,200 --> 02:09:54,800
Speaker 4: that he wanted to be but like couldn't and yet

2221
02:09:54,840 --> 02:09:57,680
Speaker 4: she has all the same flaws as him. They're both

2222
02:09:57,800 --> 02:10:01,520
Speaker 4: children trying to like grab and sees their spot like

2223
02:10:01,680 --> 02:10:04,880
Speaker 4: in the in the imperial world, and they can never

2224
02:10:05,120 --> 02:10:08,400
Speaker 4: escape the logic of children. Yeah, it's phenomenal. So so yeah,

2225
02:10:08,440 --> 02:10:12,600
Speaker 4: basically because because she was sent memos accidentally, she was

2226
02:10:12,640 --> 02:10:16,520
Speaker 4: accidentally added to HOO THEPC small group. Uh, she had

2227
02:10:16,680 --> 02:10:18,840
Speaker 4: she had information on the desk that she shouldn't have

2228
02:10:18,920 --> 02:10:21,400
Speaker 4: that she sorted that she stored on her computer that

2229
02:10:21,440 --> 02:10:24,360
Speaker 4: then Lonnie was able to access with like a stolen

2230
02:10:24,400 --> 02:10:27,280
Speaker 4: code cylinder, and this is why she's detained.

2231
02:10:27,400 --> 02:10:29,560
Speaker 2: And I love to that. Lonnie makes a statement that

2232
02:10:29,640 --> 02:10:31,760
Speaker 2: like he didn't tell Luthen he had this because he's like, well,

2233
02:10:31,760 --> 02:10:34,520
Speaker 2: you would have made me use it? Well, yeah, I did,

2234
02:10:34,640 --> 02:10:37,400
Speaker 2: super cool, And there's this yeah, like Lonnie has gotten

2235
02:10:37,520 --> 02:10:40,480
Speaker 2: very good at this, like he was right to not

2236
02:10:40,680 --> 02:10:41,600
Speaker 2: tell his boss.

2237
02:10:42,360 --> 02:10:46,200
Speaker 4: Sometimes you share and sometimes you don't. And yeah, yeah, no,

2238
02:10:46,280 --> 02:10:48,360
Speaker 4: like the idea of him holding onto this code cylinder

2239
02:10:48,400 --> 02:10:50,600
Speaker 4: this this whole year, knowing that you can only use

2240
02:10:50,640 --> 02:10:53,120
Speaker 4: this once before you're kind of found out, and then

2241
02:10:53,200 --> 02:10:55,800
Speaker 4: like waiting until he's heard chatter that like Luthin's gonna

2242
02:10:55,800 --> 02:10:59,480
Speaker 4: get raided, uses the cylinder, then discovers all these other files.

2243
02:10:59,800 --> 02:11:02,680
Speaker 4: It it shows how like important Luthin's operation is. Like

2244
02:11:02,720 --> 02:11:04,400
Speaker 4: this is I think what these last episodes are really

2245
02:11:04,400 --> 02:11:07,360
Speaker 4: about is kind of like, yeah, the redemption of Luthen

2246
02:11:07,440 --> 02:11:12,400
Speaker 4: in the eyes of the other rebel agents. So so yes,

2247
02:11:13,480 --> 02:11:17,440
Speaker 4: Dedra is completely fucked and it's hilarious and Ben Mendel

2248
02:11:18,080 --> 02:11:20,160
Speaker 4: is trancing around the scene.

2249
02:11:20,360 --> 02:11:21,880
Speaker 2: He's having such a good time.

2250
02:11:22,720 --> 02:11:23,320
Speaker 4: It's so good.

2251
02:11:23,360 --> 02:11:25,480
Speaker 6: This is like it's like this and and the thing

2252
02:11:25,520 --> 02:11:27,680
Speaker 6: where he's going cow kite.

2253
02:11:28,640 --> 02:11:30,280
Speaker 4: Episode, he's so good.

2254
02:11:30,360 --> 02:11:32,880
Speaker 6: It's only his two best Like yeah, it's also just

2255
02:11:32,960 --> 02:11:35,240
Speaker 6: really like god, they didn't let him cook a and

2256
02:11:35,440 --> 02:11:37,920
Speaker 6: or like oh it's him written like.

2257
02:11:39,760 --> 02:11:41,240
Speaker 4: You know, oh yeah, but.

2258
02:11:41,240 --> 02:11:43,440
Speaker 6: It's like it's like like these it's like you mean

2259
02:11:43,560 --> 02:11:46,480
Speaker 6: about this series is you've been getting to watch yeah, sorry, yeah,

2260
02:11:46,640 --> 02:11:48,280
Speaker 6: Rogue one. Yeah, it's like you've been getting to watch

2261
02:11:48,320 --> 02:11:51,080
Speaker 6: these people who have just been playing like kind of

2262
02:11:51,120 --> 02:11:53,360
Speaker 6: generic Star Wars characters and you get to watch.

2263
02:11:53,240 --> 02:11:56,440
Speaker 4: Them cook and it is a thing of beauty. The

2264
02:11:56,520 --> 02:12:01,320
Speaker 4: real freak gets to be let out because they're all freaks.

2265
02:12:02,080 --> 02:12:05,680
Speaker 2: There's that glorious moment when she realizes how fucked she

2266
02:12:05,920 --> 02:12:07,720
Speaker 2: is when he puts his finger on.

2267
02:12:07,840 --> 02:12:08,520
Speaker 4: Her hand.

2268
02:12:10,320 --> 02:12:12,800
Speaker 2: Like she's just an odd she's there for him to

2269
02:12:12,960 --> 02:12:15,839
Speaker 2: act off. She's right, she's a button.

2270
02:12:15,840 --> 02:12:18,320
Speaker 4: We can push you when, we can push you when

2271
02:12:18,400 --> 02:12:21,160
Speaker 4: we desire to. But you know, you don't go off

2272
02:12:21,240 --> 02:12:23,600
Speaker 4: by yourself. It's phenomena.

2273
02:12:23,640 --> 02:12:24,920
Speaker 2: And he's turning her off.

2274
02:12:25,600 --> 02:12:27,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, he has this line where he's like, you think

2275
02:12:27,880 --> 02:12:30,240
Speaker 6: I would come here for the death of an ISB clerk,

2276
02:12:30,360 --> 02:12:31,320
Speaker 6: Say say.

2277
02:12:31,120 --> 02:12:37,400
Speaker 4: The word it's phenomenal. Yees, say the word death star. Yeah, amazing.

2278
02:12:37,640 --> 02:12:40,400
Speaker 2: And then yeah, he turns her off and is like, yeah,

2279
02:12:40,400 --> 02:12:42,280
Speaker 2: we'll get it. We'll get by without you somehow.

2280
02:12:42,360 --> 02:12:46,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, hopefully, hopefully we'll be able to get by without you.

2281
02:12:46,520 --> 02:12:48,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's so funny because like he is just

2282
02:12:49,160 --> 02:12:52,640
Speaker 2: he is nuking her. There's nothing left after this. And

2283
02:12:52,800 --> 02:12:58,480
Speaker 2: also they can't say actually, actually he's dead in like two.

2284
02:12:58,320 --> 02:13:03,400
Speaker 4: Days, Target literate his ass with.

2285
02:13:03,520 --> 02:13:08,960
Speaker 2: The bargain's about to be sick dust and everyone else. Yes,

2286
02:13:09,080 --> 02:13:10,040
Speaker 2: everyone's a button.

2287
02:13:10,360 --> 02:13:12,400
Speaker 4: And it's crazy how much of like the is B

2288
02:13:12,560 --> 02:13:15,160
Speaker 4: gets totally wiped out, like the week of the Death

2289
02:13:15,200 --> 02:13:18,640
Speaker 4: Stars destruction like this shows like the real decline of

2290
02:13:18,680 --> 02:13:21,960
Speaker 4: the Empires. It's like this, like administrative, bureaucratic state that's

2291
02:13:21,960 --> 02:13:24,480
Speaker 4: been running the real day to day operations gets completely

2292
02:13:24,560 --> 02:13:28,240
Speaker 4: wiped out. And now these two like scith lunatics have

2293
02:13:28,320 --> 02:13:30,760
Speaker 4: to personally run everything themselves and they can't do it.

2294
02:13:31,080 --> 02:13:34,160
Speaker 4: They just can't. They were they were relying on all

2295
02:13:34,200 --> 02:13:36,360
Speaker 4: of like the republic holdovers that actually knew how to

2296
02:13:36,400 --> 02:13:37,720
Speaker 4: like run like run a state.

2297
02:13:37,800 --> 02:13:40,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, these guys like Laren and whatnot who were like

2298
02:13:41,360 --> 02:13:46,400
Speaker 2: harm job yes yeah yeah, oh part of gas and

2299
02:13:46,520 --> 02:13:48,360
Speaker 2: they all get iced out.

2300
02:13:48,960 --> 02:13:51,200
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, I mean, and this is this is a

2301
02:13:51,280 --> 02:13:53,840
Speaker 6: dynamic that I think, like because like everyone you were

2302
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:56,600
Speaker 6: trained from birth in the US to know the like

2303
02:13:56,640 --> 02:13:58,440
Speaker 6: the revolution of ours a children.

2304
02:13:58,240 --> 02:14:01,280
Speaker 4: Thing, and the Empire ever talks about this.

2305
02:14:02,440 --> 02:14:05,400
Speaker 6: Just like no, the liquida should rate for these.

2306
02:14:05,240 --> 02:14:06,360
Speaker 4: People is astonishing.

2307
02:14:06,440 --> 02:14:08,360
Speaker 6: They also all like turn through these people, and it's

2308
02:14:08,360 --> 02:14:11,080
Speaker 6: like you can you can watch like Vader doing this

2309
02:14:11,160 --> 02:14:14,240
Speaker 6: to people. We're like Vader, Like Vader just keeps fucking

2310
02:14:14,320 --> 02:14:15,160
Speaker 6: killing his officers.

2311
02:14:15,560 --> 02:14:17,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, on his Superstar Destroyer all the time.

2312
02:14:18,040 --> 02:14:20,560
Speaker 2: Well, and and what we what we see throughout and

2313
02:14:20,720 --> 02:14:24,360
Speaker 2: Or is rebels fuck up all the time. They fail

2314
02:14:24,440 --> 02:14:27,040
Speaker 2: all the time. We see moments of failure from Luthen,

2315
02:14:27,160 --> 02:14:30,160
Speaker 2: we see them from Cassi in we see them from

2316
02:14:30,400 --> 02:14:34,280
Speaker 2: Draven and they guys at Indoor bail Mon Mathma. They

2317
02:14:34,280 --> 02:14:37,120
Speaker 2: all fuck up, and then they get the chance to

2318
02:14:37,240 --> 02:14:40,400
Speaker 2: learn from their mistakes and get better, which is ultimately

2319
02:14:40,440 --> 02:14:41,040
Speaker 2: why they win.

2320
02:14:41,120 --> 02:14:44,360
Speaker 4: And that privilege is never an extended no to the Empire.

2321
02:14:44,360 --> 02:14:47,360
Speaker 2: Even if you're really good, you're going to make some

2322
02:14:47,480 --> 02:14:50,240
Speaker 2: mistakes and the first time you do, Darth Vader chokes

2323
02:14:50,240 --> 02:14:53,400
Speaker 2: you to death, and so the Empire never gets better.

2324
02:14:54,160 --> 02:14:56,480
Speaker 6: It's just because this was a point in the old

2325
02:14:56,560 --> 02:14:58,320
Speaker 6: Canyon where like one of the one of the arguments

2326
02:14:58,320 --> 02:14:59,920
Speaker 6: of like why the rebels won the war was like

2327
02:15:00,680 --> 02:15:04,760
Speaker 6: X wings have shields, yeah, and tie fighters don't, and

2328
02:15:04,800 --> 02:15:06,120
Speaker 6: you could so you can make a mistake in an

2329
02:15:06,200 --> 02:15:08,120
Speaker 6: X wing, but if you make say a tie fighter,

2330
02:15:08,200 --> 02:15:10,000
Speaker 6: just doe. So the rebel pilots end up being better

2331
02:15:10,040 --> 02:15:12,280
Speaker 6: than the imperial ones because they survive. And there's there's

2332
02:15:12,280 --> 02:15:14,720
Speaker 6: this other like there are lots of these interesting parallels too,

2333
02:15:14,720 --> 02:15:17,400
Speaker 6: where like the death of the Administrative State was also

2334
02:15:17,440 --> 02:15:19,240
Speaker 6: sort of an old canon thing where it's like, so

2335
02:15:19,280 --> 02:15:20,640
Speaker 6: the way it plays out in the old canon's like

2336
02:15:20,680 --> 02:15:22,600
Speaker 6: at endor and this like is the thing that you

2337
02:15:22,680 --> 02:15:24,800
Speaker 6: canon too, I guess but like all of the best

2338
02:15:24,800 --> 02:15:27,720
Speaker 6: officers are trying to get promoted up the ladder, and

2339
02:15:27,760 --> 02:15:32,520
Speaker 6: so they're all on the Emperor the Emperor Superstar Destroyer. Yeah,

2340
02:15:32,600 --> 02:15:34,640
Speaker 6: and when that thing goes down, it's like yeah, it

2341
02:15:34,760 --> 02:15:36,440
Speaker 6: like and this is this is partially just a thing

2342
02:15:36,440 --> 02:15:38,960
Speaker 6: that also about like how imperial administration works is how

2343
02:15:39,000 --> 02:15:41,120
Speaker 6: centralized it is, is that they have single points of failure.

2344
02:15:41,360 --> 02:15:43,200
Speaker 4: And this is for example, Haberdijia fell.

2345
02:15:43,480 --> 02:15:44,240
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, they put.

2346
02:15:46,240 --> 02:15:48,160
Speaker 4: Up and it's like we don't have a state.

2347
02:15:47,920 --> 02:15:50,600
Speaker 6: Anymore because everything's so centralized and it being so centralized

2348
02:15:50,600 --> 02:15:53,640
Speaker 6: and everyone being so essential, and also you killing all

2349
02:15:53,680 --> 02:15:56,240
Speaker 6: these people because your organization doesn't tolerate a failure. It

2350
02:15:56,360 --> 02:15:58,920
Speaker 6: just it creates these discscading failure points where you knock

2351
02:15:58,920 --> 02:16:00,720
Speaker 6: out a couple of people on it and suddenly it's

2352
02:16:00,720 --> 02:16:02,000
Speaker 6: like everything's destroyed.

2353
02:16:02,520 --> 02:16:04,480
Speaker 4: I do want to return to the point of kind

2354
02:16:04,480 --> 02:16:06,360
Speaker 4: of how fastiss in like eth the zone at the end,

2355
02:16:06,400 --> 02:16:09,120
Speaker 4: because Tony has some quotes on that. I'm just gonna

2356
02:16:09,120 --> 02:16:11,080
Speaker 4: speed run through these next few kind of points here.

2357
02:16:11,720 --> 02:16:15,280
Speaker 4: The ice be tracks Klay's movements via hospital security cameras,

2358
02:16:15,840 --> 02:16:19,960
Speaker 4: even though she tries to avoid an evade detection. She

2359
02:16:20,080 --> 02:16:22,680
Speaker 4: is basically stuck on Corussant and starts hiding out in

2360
02:16:22,760 --> 02:16:25,840
Speaker 4: the old safe house, broadcasting an emergency pulse code to

2361
02:16:25,880 --> 02:16:30,440
Speaker 4: her comrades on Yavin. Meanwhile, a divorced Cassian and Melchie

2362
02:16:30,560 --> 02:16:33,600
Speaker 4: get drunk and start bullying their autistic robot friend while

2363
02:16:33,600 --> 02:16:34,240
Speaker 4: playing poker.

2364
02:16:35,560 --> 02:16:40,200
Speaker 6: So good, it's so funny cases, Hey, I know, oh,

2365
02:16:40,280 --> 02:16:42,880
Speaker 6: I know, I'm well aware. I am the sober autistic

2366
02:16:42,920 --> 02:16:44,560
Speaker 6: girl in every one of these things.

2367
02:16:44,720 --> 02:16:48,520
Speaker 2: Well, and they understand the most important thing about television

2368
02:16:48,560 --> 02:16:52,200
Speaker 2: sci fi, which is a robot awkwardly playing poker with

2369
02:16:52,320 --> 02:16:53,120
Speaker 2: a human friend.

2370
02:16:53,200 --> 02:16:53,480
Speaker 5: I know.

2371
02:16:57,720 --> 02:17:01,039
Speaker 4: Data K TWOSO holding hid me and.

2372
02:17:01,000 --> 02:17:03,080
Speaker 2: I love the K two s O is also constantly

2373
02:17:03,080 --> 02:17:04,959
Speaker 2: being like, you guys are drinking a lot, like.

2374
02:17:07,240 --> 02:17:07,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that.

2375
02:17:07,959 --> 02:17:10,680
Speaker 2: When they're about to go on this last mission, Cassian

2376
02:17:10,920 --> 02:17:16,600
Speaker 2: isnically drunk driving. Yeah, he is one and a half

2377
02:17:16,720 --> 02:17:20,199
Speaker 2: shot away from blacking out. It's time to pilot a spacecraft.

2378
02:17:20,320 --> 02:17:25,280
Speaker 7: Most most realistic insertions like no one will be this

2379
02:17:25,400 --> 02:17:29,160
Speaker 7: drunk again until like no, like many many years later

2380
02:17:29,320 --> 02:17:33,680
Speaker 7: in this galaxy, until like there's until like civil war generals, Yeah,

2381
02:17:33,760 --> 02:17:36,040
Speaker 7: are finding each other's next time, and we'll be this drunk.

2382
02:17:37,040 --> 02:17:39,920
Speaker 2: Ulyssie Simpson Grant is the last person to be as

2383
02:17:40,000 --> 02:17:43,200
Speaker 2: drunk as Cassian and or was in this scene.

2384
02:17:44,080 --> 02:17:47,080
Speaker 4: Woman's old like Luthen radio goes off with an as

2385
02:17:47,120 --> 02:17:50,120
Speaker 4: West message. She takes it to Cassian, who then yeah,

2386
02:17:50,200 --> 02:17:52,879
Speaker 4: drunk drives there, you way off Yavin.

2387
02:17:54,480 --> 02:17:56,920
Speaker 2: And let's let's have a shout out to our man

2388
02:17:57,040 --> 02:17:59,720
Speaker 2: Draven here. Who is he? He's kind of he's kind

2389
02:17:59,720 --> 02:18:03,800
Speaker 2: of he's kind of based like I love. I love

2390
02:18:03,840 --> 02:18:06,039
Speaker 2: that they managed to both make him be. He has

2391
02:18:06,120 --> 02:18:08,879
Speaker 2: to be the foil to Cassian because Cassian does not

2392
02:18:09,120 --> 02:18:12,280
Speaker 2: want this chain of command bullshit. He's so sympathetic, but

2393
02:18:12,320 --> 02:18:14,960
Speaker 2: he's not wrong, and he's not a dick. He's like, look, man,

2394
02:18:15,240 --> 02:18:18,200
Speaker 2: I've got like four hundred other freighters. I'm worried about

2395
02:18:18,240 --> 02:18:20,800
Speaker 2: right now, those shipments of rifles that I that I

2396
02:18:20,879 --> 02:18:22,280
Speaker 2: have to keep. I have to keep all of this

2397
02:18:22,360 --> 02:18:24,240
Speaker 2: in my head. I can't write any of it down.

2398
02:18:24,360 --> 02:18:27,440
Speaker 2: I haven't slept in days. I ate nothing, but Tom's like,

2399
02:18:27,760 --> 02:18:31,000
Speaker 2: I can't even drink hot coffee because otherwise my fucking

2400
02:18:31,080 --> 02:18:34,360
Speaker 2: ulcers light on fire. I don't even remember when I

2401
02:18:34,400 --> 02:18:38,600
Speaker 2: hate solid food. My ibs has ibs. Can you please

2402
02:18:38,720 --> 02:18:41,680
Speaker 2: stop taking off in the middle of the night.

2403
02:18:43,040 --> 02:18:45,600
Speaker 4: It's so funny that the thing Cassian does at the

2404
02:18:45,680 --> 02:18:47,920
Speaker 4: end of Rogue one, it's just like a regular currents

2405
02:18:48,000 --> 02:18:53,000
Speaker 4: on the face he's doing this, but no, like like

2406
02:18:53,120 --> 02:18:55,680
Speaker 4: consistently Draven, even even if he gets pissed off, the

2407
02:18:55,720 --> 02:18:59,560
Speaker 4: Cassian consistently has his backstill, which is I think, really

2408
02:18:59,640 --> 02:19:01,360
Speaker 4: really yes.

2409
02:19:01,840 --> 02:19:02,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2410
02:19:02,440 --> 02:19:07,680
Speaker 4: Krenik realizes how fucked they are and tries to get

2411
02:19:07,680 --> 02:19:10,280
Speaker 4: the entire ice B immobilized to locate Claia as she

2412
02:19:10,520 --> 02:19:13,200
Speaker 4: is probably in possession of the death Star intel quote.

2413
02:19:13,240 --> 02:19:16,199
Speaker 4: There will be no horizon to the scope of your inquiry.

2414
02:19:17,000 --> 02:19:19,039
Speaker 4: And this is where we have some of the most

2415
02:19:19,080 --> 02:19:22,880
Speaker 4: interesting stuff from Partigas and how he views like rebellions

2416
02:19:22,959 --> 02:19:26,720
Speaker 4: and revolutions as a disease. And this relates to some

2417
02:19:26,760 --> 02:19:28,760
Speaker 4: of his lines from season one where he describes the

2418
02:19:28,800 --> 02:19:33,080
Speaker 4: ISP as quote unquote healthcare providers. We treat sickness, We

2419
02:19:33,160 --> 02:19:37,200
Speaker 4: identify symptoms, We locate germs, whether they arise from within

2420
02:19:37,760 --> 02:19:40,560
Speaker 4: or have come from the outside. The longer we wait

2421
02:19:40,600 --> 02:19:43,520
Speaker 4: to identify a disorder, the harder it is to treat

2422
02:19:43,520 --> 02:19:46,680
Speaker 4: the disease unquote. And then when the ice P decides

2423
02:19:46,760 --> 02:19:50,320
Speaker 4: on what grounds they are looking to apprehend Clia Partogras

2424
02:19:50,400 --> 02:19:54,840
Speaker 4: proclaims that quote she's diseased. She escaped the hospital with

2425
02:19:54,920 --> 02:19:58,600
Speaker 4: infectious condition that threatens everyone with whom she may come

2426
02:19:58,720 --> 02:20:00,760
Speaker 4: into contact.

2427
02:20:01,480 --> 02:20:03,800
Speaker 6: I'm so glad they did this because this is such

2428
02:20:03,840 --> 02:20:06,880
Speaker 6: a core part of the ideology of fascism, right of

2429
02:20:06,879 --> 02:20:09,200
Speaker 6: seeing seeing that the body is a nation and there

2430
02:20:09,240 --> 02:20:12,040
Speaker 6: being these sort of like parasitic infections that are inside

2431
02:20:12,080 --> 02:20:14,080
Speaker 6: the nation that are like undermining it. That's that's like

2432
02:20:14,120 --> 02:20:18,280
Speaker 6: just the core of fascism. And you're just getting You're

2433
02:20:18,280 --> 02:20:20,880
Speaker 6: just getting to watch like the people in the middle

2434
02:20:20,920 --> 02:20:24,520
Speaker 6: of the Empire just literally trying to do the thing

2435
02:20:24,560 --> 02:20:28,320
Speaker 6: and in the most literal way possible, right Like they're

2436
02:20:28,360 --> 02:20:30,920
Speaker 6: just they're just coming out and saying what the ideology

2437
02:20:30,959 --> 02:20:31,760
Speaker 6: is and how it works.

2438
02:20:31,800 --> 02:20:34,400
Speaker 4: And I it may it may.

2439
02:20:34,240 --> 02:20:36,560
Speaker 6: Still be a level of metaphor that is slightly too

2440
02:20:36,600 --> 02:20:38,480
Speaker 6: high for the average Star Wars viewer, but they are

2441
02:20:38,600 --> 02:20:39,760
Speaker 6: just telling you the politics.

2442
02:20:39,840 --> 02:20:41,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I really appreciate that.

2443
02:20:41,920 --> 02:20:42,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2444
02:20:43,120 --> 02:20:45,959
Speaker 4: Now, while stuck in an ic be holding cell with

2445
02:20:45,959 --> 02:20:50,160
Speaker 4: with with an unbuttoned collar, the detra is crashing out

2446
02:20:50,840 --> 02:20:53,120
Speaker 4: and you can tell because the caller is unbuttoned, but

2447
02:20:53,280 --> 02:20:55,800
Speaker 4: somehow she is still able to give the ISB a

2448
02:20:55,920 --> 02:20:59,440
Speaker 4: lead to track Claya through her use of obscure radio signals. Yeah,

2449
02:20:59,720 --> 02:21:02,360
Speaker 4: one of the cool parts here is an Imperial radio

2450
02:21:02,360 --> 02:21:07,680
Speaker 4: technician is impressed at Lusen's radio setup and can and

2451
02:21:07,760 --> 02:21:10,280
Speaker 4: can't help but be excited when like learning how it works.

2452
02:21:10,720 --> 02:21:13,760
Speaker 4: But they say that Luthan targeted the storage files and

2453
02:21:13,800 --> 02:21:17,480
Speaker 4: the radio signal library when he burned the console, but

2454
02:21:17,560 --> 02:21:20,600
Speaker 4: still they were able to track Claya's pulsecode to a

2455
02:21:20,640 --> 02:21:24,640
Speaker 4: nearby apartment on Coruscant, and in preparation for the raid

2456
02:21:24,680 --> 02:21:26,880
Speaker 4: on the safe house, the ice Peed jams calms around

2457
02:21:26,920 --> 02:21:30,080
Speaker 4: the area right as Cassian, Melchi and K two arrive

2458
02:21:30,160 --> 02:21:34,120
Speaker 4: to extract Claia. As Cassie gets into the apartment and

2459
02:21:34,200 --> 02:21:37,840
Speaker 4: finds not Luthan but Claia and then tries to plead

2460
02:21:37,879 --> 02:21:40,959
Speaker 4: with her to come to Yavin. He also like kind

2461
02:21:41,000 --> 02:21:44,480
Speaker 4: of lambass Luthen for not coming to Yavin sooner because

2462
02:21:44,520 --> 02:21:48,760
Speaker 4: he couldn't swallow his pride, and Claia says, quote, thank

2463
02:21:48,879 --> 02:21:52,840
Speaker 4: the Galaxy, he didn't. He stayed for this that people

2464
02:21:52,879 --> 02:21:56,080
Speaker 4: in Yavin have to know what they're up against. Think,

2465
02:21:56,240 --> 02:21:59,920
Speaker 4: thank the Galaxy. He did it so good. All right,

2466
02:22:00,240 --> 02:22:02,200
Speaker 4: let's go on break and then we'll return to discuss

2467
02:22:02,240 --> 02:22:16,840
Speaker 4: the final episode. Okay, we are back. Episode twelve. Jetta

2468
02:22:17,040 --> 02:22:21,440
Speaker 4: kiber urso so Cass is trying to convince Clia to leave,

2469
02:22:21,520 --> 02:22:24,240
Speaker 4: like right now, right this very second, please dear clot

2470
02:22:24,320 --> 02:22:27,080
Speaker 4: come with me, and Claya is still like kind of

2471
02:22:27,120 --> 02:22:30,480
Speaker 4: pissed up with the whole situation, like Gavin after all

2472
02:22:30,520 --> 02:22:34,320
Speaker 4: these years, what a bitter ending. Cass tries to argue

2473
02:22:34,320 --> 02:22:37,280
Speaker 4: that if she comes, she's helping to keep Luthan alive,

2474
02:22:37,840 --> 02:22:43,720
Speaker 4: which she calls big words the Imperial Swat Team importantly

2475
02:22:43,800 --> 02:22:47,480
Speaker 4: not stormtroopers. Instead, these goofy s swat guys surround the

2476
02:22:47,520 --> 02:22:52,840
Speaker 4: apartment trying to locate Claya. As the ISB locates Cass, Claya,

2477
02:22:53,120 --> 02:22:56,720
Speaker 4: and Melchi, they throw a stun grenade, which, this is

2478
02:22:56,800 --> 02:22:59,280
Speaker 4: very interesting to me, does not really affect Cass and

2479
02:22:59,280 --> 02:23:02,520
Speaker 4: Melchie as much like Claya gets knocked out, but the

2480
02:23:02,640 --> 02:23:07,560
Speaker 4: Narkina five prison shocks conditioned Melchi and Cass against the

2481
02:23:07,600 --> 02:23:10,519
Speaker 4: sun grenade. Yeah, which is again phenomenal.

2482
02:23:10,800 --> 02:23:14,560
Speaker 2: It's so good and I think just generally like Claya

2483
02:23:14,640 --> 02:23:17,560
Speaker 2: has again Luthen has protected her from a lot of

2484
02:23:17,840 --> 02:23:21,560
Speaker 2: like the direct she doesn't have CTE. Right, if Cassie

2485
02:23:21,600 --> 02:23:24,160
Speaker 2: and had lived another thirty years, like his fucking brain

2486
02:23:24,200 --> 02:23:26,440
Speaker 2: would have been melting because he's been around too many

2487
02:23:26,480 --> 02:23:29,720
Speaker 2: goddamn explosions and he's been electrocute and the same things

2488
02:23:29,720 --> 02:23:33,440
Speaker 2: to a melchie, right, they just barely feel it.

2489
02:23:33,520 --> 02:23:35,640
Speaker 4: But to be fair, it's not like she hasn't blown

2490
02:23:35,720 --> 02:23:36,280
Speaker 4: up a bunch of things.

2491
02:23:36,840 --> 02:23:40,240
Speaker 6: She's had a distance from a distance, we just watch

2492
02:23:40,320 --> 02:23:44,360
Speaker 6: her liquidate an entire Imperial Security compliment to go kill Luthen.

2493
02:23:44,640 --> 02:23:46,320
Speaker 4: Like, it's not like she hasn't done this.

2494
02:23:46,320 --> 02:23:49,480
Speaker 2: No, no, no, But she's raised by an old soldier who

2495
02:23:49,560 --> 02:23:51,520
Speaker 2: does the responsible thing that you do if you have

2496
02:23:51,520 --> 02:23:53,959
Speaker 2: the experience, which is you tell the younger people, no, no, no,

2497
02:23:54,160 --> 02:23:57,960
Speaker 2: use your ear pro for no, give further back. I

2498
02:23:58,040 --> 02:24:00,560
Speaker 2: know you don't think you need to be, but get

2499
02:24:00,640 --> 02:24:07,400
Speaker 2: further back, like my ears ring all the time. Don't

2500
02:24:07,440 --> 02:24:10,480
Speaker 2: fucking take risks. I also kind of what I wonder

2501
02:24:10,520 --> 02:24:12,880
Speaker 2: if maybe there's a level of protection from the stand

2502
02:24:12,879 --> 02:24:15,119
Speaker 2: grad age you get again when you are still right

2503
02:24:15,160 --> 02:24:16,360
Speaker 2: on the edge of a blackout.

2504
02:24:17,800 --> 02:24:24,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's compelling. So as K two just completely

2505
02:24:24,080 --> 02:24:29,920
Speaker 4: demolishes this Imperial team. Uh, the the i SB calls

2506
02:24:29,920 --> 02:24:33,879
Speaker 4: for backup, but everyone is spread too thin because they're

2507
02:24:34,080 --> 02:24:37,520
Speaker 4: searching for the emergency disease warrant from partagraphs.

2508
02:24:39,160 --> 02:24:39,640
Speaker 6: So good.

2509
02:24:39,920 --> 02:24:43,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, Claya does get to Yavin, and here we see

2510
02:24:43,680 --> 02:24:47,760
Speaker 4: a lot more of like the tricky aspects of Yavin politics.

2511
02:24:48,600 --> 02:24:51,160
Speaker 4: Saw is kind of getting impossible to deal with. He

2512
02:24:51,240 --> 02:24:52,400
Speaker 4: is haffing way too much fuel.

2513
02:24:52,800 --> 02:24:56,040
Speaker 2: He's huffing an amount of fuel. I don't know if I'm

2514
02:24:55,959 --> 02:24:59,080
Speaker 2: gonna say it's too much, but I do. His insistence

2515
02:24:59,120 --> 02:25:01,720
Speaker 2: where they're dude, we know you're we know you're on

2516
02:25:01,840 --> 02:25:05,200
Speaker 2: Jetta's we know no idea, you.

2517
02:25:05,240 --> 02:25:07,119
Speaker 4: Don't know where I am?

2518
02:25:07,200 --> 02:25:07,360
Speaker 6: You know.

2519
02:25:07,440 --> 02:25:10,760
Speaker 4: Yeah's trying to argue with him about about how they're

2520
02:25:10,760 --> 02:25:13,160
Speaker 4: trying to get to the bottom of like the Imperial

2521
02:25:13,200 --> 02:25:15,959
Speaker 4: kiper minding on Jetta and they're like, we know you're

2522
02:25:16,000 --> 02:25:19,080
Speaker 4: on Jetta, and he tries to deny it. You don't

2523
02:25:19,080 --> 02:25:20,800
Speaker 4: know where I am? Yes, we do.

2524
02:25:21,360 --> 02:25:23,440
Speaker 6: There's also this great thing at the end of that

2525
02:25:23,520 --> 02:25:26,160
Speaker 6: where Moths like, we're just trying to help you. And

2526
02:25:26,200 --> 02:25:29,240
Speaker 6: then and Saw just cuss the line and I think

2527
02:25:29,280 --> 02:25:33,240
Speaker 6: it's Draven. Whatever the the Rebel intelligence. Ghoul in the

2528
02:25:33,320 --> 02:25:36,360
Speaker 6: room cuts the line and Moss was kind of just

2529
02:25:36,360 --> 02:25:39,440
Speaker 6: going like uh, and he goes, oh, no, we've absolutely.

2530
02:25:38,840 --> 02:25:41,360
Speaker 4: Been sending spies into his group, and.

2531
02:25:41,280 --> 02:25:46,039
Speaker 2: She's been We've been bugging him. He's He's absolutely right.

2532
02:25:46,240 --> 02:25:48,760
Speaker 6: It's something I think it's interesting about because, like it

2533
02:25:49,240 --> 02:25:52,080
Speaker 6: in Rogue one, Saw is like seems like such an

2534
02:25:52,160 --> 02:25:53,640
Speaker 6: unbelievably paranoid asshole.

2535
02:25:53,800 --> 02:25:55,000
Speaker 4: It's like, no, like the.

2536
02:25:54,959 --> 02:25:57,959
Speaker 6: Rebels really have been like trying to the rebels and

2537
02:25:58,000 --> 02:25:59,959
Speaker 6: the Empire really have been trying to infiltrate his group

2538
02:26:00,080 --> 02:26:03,160
Speaker 6: for like so fucking long that he's completely lost his

2539
02:26:03,280 --> 02:26:05,160
Speaker 6: mind from just like the paranoia.

2540
02:26:05,400 --> 02:26:08,160
Speaker 2: Also, he is canonically again a forty six.

2541
02:26:11,440 --> 02:26:13,560
Speaker 4: Puffing all that fuel really does rapid age you.

2542
02:26:13,760 --> 02:26:15,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's not great for you.

2543
02:26:16,160 --> 02:26:18,119
Speaker 4: So then we have, I guess the most frustrating part

2544
02:26:18,120 --> 02:26:20,959
Speaker 4: of the episode, Like good but frustrating to watch with

2545
02:26:21,000 --> 02:26:25,160
Speaker 4: this this this Rebel spokes Council meeting about Luthen and

2546
02:26:25,200 --> 02:26:28,480
Speaker 4: the Death Star intel. Oh my god, are these people annoying?

2547
02:26:28,840 --> 02:26:32,360
Speaker 4: Uh yeah, what pieces of shit? These people, These people

2548
02:26:32,400 --> 02:26:35,720
Speaker 4: who have like done basically nothing. Yeah, they're senators, Who's like,

2549
02:26:35,840 --> 02:26:39,000
Speaker 4: who who have who have defected to Yavin, and they

2550
02:26:39,040 --> 02:26:41,640
Speaker 4: don't know the cost of things that that they're actually

2551
02:26:41,680 --> 02:26:45,320
Speaker 4: dealing in. Bail says that that Luthen stayed on Corussants

2552
02:26:45,360 --> 02:26:49,560
Speaker 4: too long and again no, no Luthen state for this

2553
02:26:49,600 --> 02:26:50,400
Speaker 4: piece of information.

2554
02:26:51,280 --> 02:26:51,600
Speaker 5: M hm.

2555
02:26:52,000 --> 02:26:55,200
Speaker 4: And and Mon's getting kind of increasingly frustrated as everyone's

2556
02:26:55,280 --> 02:26:58,520
Speaker 4: kind of like bad talking Luthen. Again. We we We've

2557
02:26:58,560 --> 02:27:01,720
Speaker 4: been very clear on the show about Lusen as a

2558
02:27:01,760 --> 02:27:05,360
Speaker 4: complicated character with some people more pro Luthin than others.

2559
02:27:05,600 --> 02:27:07,800
Speaker 4: But and And a man like Mon herself, has a

2560
02:27:07,800 --> 02:27:10,600
Speaker 4: lot of reservations about Luthen, but yeah, she also knows

2561
02:27:10,720 --> 02:27:13,280
Speaker 4: is like her directly and everyone else are only here

2562
02:27:13,360 --> 02:27:15,400
Speaker 4: in part because of what he's done. And that's not

2563
02:27:15,440 --> 02:27:17,640
Speaker 4: saying he was right about every single thing, but he

2564
02:27:17,879 --> 02:27:20,400
Speaker 4: he but that still is true, right like he this

2565
02:27:20,520 --> 02:27:23,240
Speaker 4: is he is still very important to this. And everyone's

2566
02:27:23,280 --> 02:27:26,600
Speaker 4: being quite dismissive of Cassian and and and the intel

2567
02:27:26,640 --> 02:27:30,160
Speaker 4: from Luthen and Cassian kind of gets you know, put

2568
02:27:30,200 --> 02:27:34,080
Speaker 4: into put into confinement, and and gets dismissed and requests

2569
02:27:34,160 --> 02:27:36,520
Speaker 4: to visit Claya in the hospital. And this is where

2570
02:27:36,520 --> 02:27:39,280
Speaker 4: Mon finally speaks up and immediately grants him permission because

2571
02:27:39,320 --> 02:27:42,440
Speaker 4: like she's she she knows all these people, like like

2572
02:27:42,480 --> 02:27:44,880
Speaker 4: the she's and she's the only one on on this

2573
02:27:44,920 --> 02:27:47,280
Speaker 4: little council that like knows all of these people and

2574
02:27:47,320 --> 02:27:50,800
Speaker 4: knows like how much they have sacrificed. Yeah, but still

2575
02:27:50,959 --> 02:27:53,240
Speaker 4: like mon Mon is still like a good operator here.

2576
02:27:53,320 --> 02:27:57,280
Speaker 4: And she asked her cousin Vell to like talk with

2577
02:27:57,400 --> 02:28:00,880
Speaker 4: cassiean and like suss out how real this death Star

2578
02:28:01,120 --> 02:28:03,959
Speaker 4: intel is. When Belle does this, she doesn't try to

2579
02:28:04,000 --> 02:28:06,440
Speaker 4: do it like covertly. She likes talks to Cassie ad

2580
02:28:06,600 --> 02:28:08,840
Speaker 4: very like flatly, being like hey, like mom, set me

2581
02:28:08,879 --> 02:28:11,000
Speaker 4: here to try to figure out if if this is legit?

2582
02:28:11,320 --> 02:28:15,440
Speaker 4: Is is this legit? And they discuss the intel. Meanwhile,

2583
02:28:15,680 --> 02:28:19,240
Speaker 4: Claia gets up from like her like medical medical bay

2584
02:28:19,640 --> 02:28:21,959
Speaker 4: and starts walking around Yavin in the rain and like,

2585
02:28:22,000 --> 02:28:24,720
Speaker 4: oh my god, somebody please hug her, like someone like

2586
02:28:24,800 --> 02:28:27,480
Speaker 4: do something like she should not be left alone, like

2587
02:28:27,879 --> 02:28:29,720
Speaker 4: she's had one of the one of the most traumatic

2588
02:28:29,800 --> 02:28:33,120
Speaker 4: days of her life. Someone like take care of her.

2589
02:28:33,160 --> 02:28:36,440
Speaker 4: And Bell runs into Claia and like Vell and Clay

2590
02:28:36,440 --> 02:28:37,800
Speaker 4: have had like kind of a kind of like a

2591
02:28:37,840 --> 02:28:42,080
Speaker 4: dicey relationship, but like in this moment we see like

2592
02:28:42,160 --> 02:28:45,440
Speaker 4: just the importance of like sheer solidarity and Vell like

2593
02:28:45,560 --> 02:28:48,240
Speaker 4: cares for her, gets her to like cover, gives her

2594
02:28:48,280 --> 02:28:51,440
Speaker 4: like a place to sleep, and it's a really touching scene.

2595
02:28:51,720 --> 02:28:53,320
Speaker 6: And I want to talk about this moment a little

2596
02:28:53,320 --> 02:28:55,080
Speaker 6: bit because I think it's an interesting character thing with

2597
02:28:55,120 --> 02:28:57,320
Speaker 6: Claia here, where Claya, who had this entire show, is

2598
02:28:57,320 --> 02:28:59,920
Speaker 6: the only character who has to put together the entire time. Yeah,

2599
02:29:00,320 --> 02:29:03,400
Speaker 6: Like even partigast At like the very end starts to

2600
02:29:03,440 --> 02:29:06,880
Speaker 6: sort of crack, right, Claia is the one character who,

2601
02:29:06,959 --> 02:29:09,200
Speaker 6: like when everyone is falling apart around her, when Andre

2602
02:29:09,280 --> 02:29:11,640
Speaker 6: is falling apart, when when like even when Luthen is

2603
02:29:11,680 --> 02:29:14,320
Speaker 6: falling apart, Clay, Clay is always on it, fuck you

2604
02:29:14,320 --> 02:29:17,400
Speaker 6: pulling myself together. You have to hold this together. Yeah,

2605
02:29:17,440 --> 02:29:19,680
Speaker 6: And it's like her and you have this bot like

2606
02:29:19,720 --> 02:29:22,240
Speaker 6: her task. This is when she's finally is able to break. Yeah,

2607
02:29:22,520 --> 02:29:25,160
Speaker 6: she's been holding in so much. Yeah yeah, yeah, Like

2608
02:29:25,280 --> 02:29:27,360
Speaker 6: one her task is finally over and so she can

2609
02:29:27,560 --> 02:29:31,959
Speaker 6: like let herself fall apart. And two it's like a

2610
02:29:32,040 --> 02:29:34,480
Speaker 6: thing that could finally actually drive her to fall apart

2611
02:29:34,520 --> 02:29:36,200
Speaker 6: is the fact that she just had to fucking to

2612
02:29:36,240 --> 02:29:38,960
Speaker 6: kill Luthan kill the person who raised her. Yeah, she

2613
02:29:39,000 --> 02:29:40,680
Speaker 6: had to fucking kill Lutheran and then get out. And

2614
02:29:41,040 --> 02:29:43,080
Speaker 6: you can see this thing where that I think is

2615
02:29:43,120 --> 02:29:44,440
Speaker 6: like very familiar to a lot of people were like

2616
02:29:44,680 --> 02:29:46,320
Speaker 6: she's been. And she also has to hold all this

2617
02:29:46,360 --> 02:29:48,320
Speaker 6: information in her head because if she forgets any of

2618
02:29:48,360 --> 02:29:51,520
Speaker 6: the information that she's been told by Lutheran, the rebellion

2619
02:29:51,560 --> 02:29:54,520
Speaker 6: is doomed. And and and when Ander like first meets

2620
02:29:54,520 --> 02:29:56,720
Speaker 6: her on Corrusons, she's just like spilling it out, springing

2621
02:29:56,720 --> 02:29:59,680
Speaker 6: it out. She's out jumble of words. Yeah, and it's

2622
02:29:59,720 --> 02:30:02,320
Speaker 6: like and it's and it's a thing where like she's

2623
02:30:02,440 --> 02:30:05,280
Speaker 6: she's finally reached the point where it's like she has

2624
02:30:05,360 --> 02:30:07,280
Speaker 6: one last thing to do and she can fall apart,

2625
02:30:07,320 --> 02:30:09,039
Speaker 6: and then she can finally, instead of having to be

2626
02:30:09,080 --> 02:30:12,199
Speaker 6: the one who's caring for literally everyone and holding literally

2627
02:30:12,200 --> 02:30:14,039
Speaker 6: everyone else together, she can finally like.

2628
02:30:15,480 --> 02:30:15,800
Speaker 2: Rest.

2629
02:30:15,920 --> 02:30:18,720
Speaker 6: And she doesn't know how to do that because she's

2630
02:30:18,760 --> 02:30:21,080
Speaker 6: always had to be the one who's holding everything together

2631
02:30:21,120 --> 02:30:21,840
Speaker 6: this entire time.

2632
02:30:22,240 --> 02:30:24,400
Speaker 4: I do love the moment when Lutherin first gives her

2633
02:30:24,400 --> 02:30:26,560
Speaker 4: the information and he like forces her to like repeat

2634
02:30:26,560 --> 02:30:28,080
Speaker 4: it back to him, like make make sure you can

2635
02:30:28,160 --> 02:30:30,520
Speaker 4: you can express it to me. And then she does

2636
02:30:30,520 --> 02:30:33,240
Speaker 4: the same thing to Cassian, and Cassian like doesn't like

2637
02:30:33,400 --> 02:30:36,280
Speaker 4: Cassian doesn't repeat it back to her. And but yeah,

2638
02:30:36,320 --> 02:30:38,080
Speaker 4: like like that small like you know, like like you

2639
02:30:38,120 --> 02:30:39,320
Speaker 4: have to have like a ritual, you have to have

2640
02:30:39,360 --> 02:30:41,080
Speaker 4: like you have you have have like a protocol to

2641
02:30:41,120 --> 02:30:43,000
Speaker 4: make sure you actually like to make sure that I

2642
02:30:43,080 --> 02:30:44,760
Speaker 4: know you actually have this information, you need to like

2643
02:30:44,800 --> 02:30:47,120
Speaker 4: express it back to me. Yeah, it's it's just a

2644
02:30:47,760 --> 02:30:50,320
Speaker 4: nice little short moment. In the next morning, we see

2645
02:30:50,360 --> 02:30:54,720
Speaker 4: Cassian taking care of Bix's plants. Good for him. Yeah,

2646
02:30:54,760 --> 02:30:57,560
Speaker 4: And then this is when cass and Vell talk and

2647
02:30:57,920 --> 02:31:01,280
Speaker 4: they say that they're gonna drink to luthen Justice once,

2648
02:31:01,360 --> 02:31:05,439
Speaker 4: which again Cassiean's drinking right in the morning, good time.

2649
02:31:05,520 --> 02:31:09,680
Speaker 2: As soon as you like he does every day.

2650
02:31:10,000 --> 02:31:13,400
Speaker 4: Yes, But but they say, like we can't toast them

2651
02:31:13,440 --> 02:31:20,120
Speaker 4: all like Lieutenant Gornmic Santa Feryx, Marva Gorman, the El Donnis.

2652
02:31:21,160 --> 02:31:25,040
Speaker 4: And one one short little tidbit here Vell talks about

2653
02:31:25,040 --> 02:31:27,200
Speaker 4: how there's people falsely claiming that they were part of

2654
02:31:27,240 --> 02:31:31,200
Speaker 4: the El Donnie crew, which is the most accurate thing

2655
02:31:31,360 --> 02:31:35,080
Speaker 4: I have ever seen, where.

2656
02:31:34,879 --> 02:31:38,240
Speaker 2: They're like everybody keeps taking credit for this, and she's like, man,

2657
02:31:38,280 --> 02:31:40,520
Speaker 2: if someone did that in front of me there and.

2658
02:31:40,560 --> 02:31:43,959
Speaker 4: I killed him. Yeah, I was like, they're the only

2659
02:31:44,000 --> 02:31:46,720
Speaker 4: two people from the old Donnie Raids still still live,

2660
02:31:46,840 --> 02:31:48,760
Speaker 4: and like, yeah, like the idea that we're getting like

2661
02:31:48,800 --> 02:31:52,320
Speaker 4: rebel stolen valors, but very realistic, you know. I actually

2662
02:31:52,360 --> 02:31:55,320
Speaker 4: I actually punched Richard Spencer as like as like a

2663
02:31:55,360 --> 02:31:56,120
Speaker 4: fourteen year old.

2664
02:31:56,720 --> 02:32:02,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very weird, pretty cool. Yeah.

2665
02:32:02,400 --> 02:32:06,680
Speaker 4: We then start hearing Nemeck's manifesto playing, and it's unclear

2666
02:32:06,760 --> 02:32:08,760
Speaker 4: that if there's playing it like for the show, but

2667
02:32:08,760 --> 02:32:12,480
Speaker 4: then we yeah, but then we realized that it's partographs

2668
02:32:12,480 --> 02:32:17,600
Speaker 4: listening in the Imperial Security Bureaus briefing room, and it's

2669
02:32:17,680 --> 02:32:20,959
Speaker 4: it's a really wonderful thing to return to. Yeah, and

2670
02:32:21,520 --> 02:32:24,520
Speaker 4: one of protographs is like you know, Underlings walks up

2671
02:32:24,560 --> 02:32:28,480
Speaker 4: to him and says like it just keeps spreading, doesn't it,

2672
02:32:29,080 --> 02:32:33,680
Speaker 4: And he says it's been hard to contain again, using

2673
02:32:33,720 --> 02:32:38,680
Speaker 4: this like a disease like rhetoric. He then asks for

2674
02:32:38,720 --> 02:32:41,040
Speaker 4: a moment to collect himself and then shoots himself in

2675
02:32:41,120 --> 02:32:43,840
Speaker 4: the head. This is one of the most fascinating parts

2676
02:32:43,840 --> 02:32:45,840
Speaker 4: of the show, like like knowing like the kind of

2677
02:32:46,400 --> 02:32:49,800
Speaker 4: the tear that he's going to face for like for failing,

2678
02:32:49,879 --> 02:32:53,280
Speaker 4: while also being confronted with like how much of his

2679
02:32:53,400 --> 02:32:55,720
Speaker 4: work for the Empire has been worth it? Like it's

2680
02:32:55,760 --> 02:32:58,480
Speaker 4: it's not his emotions here are not clearly laid out

2681
02:32:58,520 --> 02:33:00,560
Speaker 4: to you, because it's more interesting for you to think

2682
02:33:00,600 --> 02:33:01,520
Speaker 4: about them yourself.

2683
02:33:02,200 --> 02:33:05,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've seen everything from like, oh, he realizes

2684
02:33:05,280 --> 02:33:09,040
Speaker 2: he was wrong to he realizes like the Empire is

2685
02:33:09,080 --> 02:33:12,360
Speaker 2: the disease or just he realizes the disease got out

2686
02:33:12,440 --> 02:33:15,720
Speaker 2: of control, like more than they had realized.

2687
02:33:15,720 --> 02:33:18,600
Speaker 4: But either the punishment he could be facing from the

2688
02:33:18,600 --> 02:33:22,080
Speaker 4: Empires not worth it like he is he is he's

2689
02:33:22,120 --> 02:33:24,800
Speaker 4: a career man. And why would he be sent to

2690
02:33:24,879 --> 02:33:29,359
Speaker 4: Narkina five? Like he is not going to El Salvador. Finally,

2691
02:33:29,600 --> 02:33:32,600
Speaker 4: Cassian is sent to meet a source on Kafring. That's

2692
02:33:32,800 --> 02:33:36,560
Speaker 4: that's one of the guys infiltrating saws operation to learn

2693
02:33:36,760 --> 02:33:39,520
Speaker 4: the location of Gala Urso, the designer at the Death Star.

2694
02:33:39,920 --> 02:33:43,400
Speaker 4: And we have this final montage across all of our characters.

2695
02:33:43,440 --> 02:33:46,760
Speaker 4: We have Man and Vell having breakfast with the grunts.

2696
02:33:47,280 --> 02:33:51,039
Speaker 4: You have divorced Parrin flying flying around on Coruscant. You

2697
02:33:51,080 --> 02:33:56,080
Speaker 4: have Dedra in a Narkina prison, and Claya gets to

2698
02:33:56,120 --> 02:33:59,600
Speaker 4: see the life of the rebellion, Saws at Jedda, Kredit

2699
02:33:59,760 --> 02:34:02,320
Speaker 4: is at the death Star be too, Emo has a

2700
02:34:02,360 --> 02:34:06,959
Speaker 4: new friend, and Bix is holding a baby watching the sunrise.

2701
02:34:07,200 --> 02:34:08,160
Speaker 2: Uh huh.

2702
02:34:08,280 --> 02:34:12,240
Speaker 4: So I want to talk mostly about Bix here, but

2703
02:34:12,400 --> 02:34:15,440
Speaker 4: first I think mon eating with the rebel troops is

2704
02:34:15,440 --> 02:34:17,200
Speaker 4: like very cool to have her just like with the

2705
02:34:17,240 --> 02:34:19,640
Speaker 4: regular people. She's not like with like bail and like

2706
02:34:19,680 --> 02:34:22,480
Speaker 4: not like like often like a special like counselor's room.

2707
02:34:22,520 --> 02:34:25,200
Speaker 4: She's like like just with everyone. We'll also talk a

2708
02:34:25,240 --> 02:34:28,320
Speaker 4: little bit about Claya here as well, but I think

2709
02:34:28,320 --> 02:34:30,280
Speaker 4: I think I want to just do Bix to start,

2710
02:34:30,280 --> 02:34:33,360
Speaker 4: if that's okay, sure, sure, yeah, yeah yeah. So Tony

2711
02:34:33,360 --> 02:34:35,480
Speaker 4: has talked a lot about this ending scene and about

2712
02:34:35,480 --> 02:34:37,760
Speaker 4: how he wanted to end with a sense of hope

2713
02:34:38,040 --> 02:34:40,440
Speaker 4: and like the hope for like life beyond you know,

2714
02:34:40,600 --> 02:34:45,880
Speaker 4: the empire, like like life beyond imperial oppression, and and

2715
02:34:46,080 --> 02:34:48,640
Speaker 4: Bix with the babies was to like symbolize this, and

2716
02:34:48,760 --> 02:34:50,840
Speaker 4: Bix is literally like looking at the sunrise right like

2717
02:34:50,879 --> 02:34:54,160
Speaker 4: the and this this metaphor of the sunrise has been

2718
02:34:54,320 --> 02:34:56,960
Speaker 4: something for Luthin, how he's never gonna get you actually

2719
02:34:57,000 --> 02:34:58,720
Speaker 4: get to see like life beyond the Empire, and he

2720
02:34:58,760 --> 02:35:01,720
Speaker 4: knows that he sacrificed that. It also calls into calls

2721
02:35:01,760 --> 02:35:05,280
Speaker 4: into view a Cassian dying at like the false sunrise

2722
02:35:05,400 --> 02:35:08,360
Speaker 4: of the Death Star. And I've seen I guess some

2723
02:35:08,400 --> 02:35:13,840
Speaker 4: people upset about Bicks just you know, being like off

2724
02:35:13,879 --> 02:35:16,080
Speaker 4: planet with a baby and feeling this is a kind

2725
02:35:16,080 --> 02:35:19,240
Speaker 4: of like relegating her character. And I think that there's

2726
02:35:19,240 --> 02:35:22,080
Speaker 4: a lot of things going on here. This show goes

2727
02:35:22,360 --> 02:35:26,800
Speaker 4: so so like way way beyond like simple politics of

2728
02:35:27,320 --> 02:35:30,040
Speaker 4: like representation and like voc casting right, which can often

2729
02:35:30,120 --> 02:35:33,040
Speaker 4: end up feeling like shallow boxes to check, because this

2730
02:35:33,080 --> 02:35:36,720
Speaker 4: show actually like depicts things like carceral injustice, manufactured consent

2731
02:35:36,760 --> 02:35:41,480
Speaker 4: for genocide, how structural patriarchy drives imperial oppression. Like the

2732
02:35:41,560 --> 02:35:44,320
Speaker 4: depth of the political mechanisms the show is tackling, I

2733
02:35:44,320 --> 02:35:47,039
Speaker 4: think is so much more worthwhile, and it's it's not

2734
02:35:47,080 --> 02:35:49,480
Speaker 4: immune to criticism for those reasons. But I think that

2735
02:35:49,520 --> 02:35:53,200
Speaker 4: aspect can be overlooked oddly. I think it'd we kind

2736
02:35:53,200 --> 02:35:55,160
Speaker 4: of like take for granted, like how good the show

2737
02:35:55,240 --> 02:35:57,560
Speaker 4: is at so many aspects, so many aspects of politics,

2738
02:35:58,000 --> 02:36:00,560
Speaker 4: and like this show specifically has women and in so

2739
02:36:00,760 --> 02:36:03,680
Speaker 4: many different roles beyond like the you know pop feminist

2740
02:36:03,720 --> 02:36:06,039
Speaker 4: girl boss Badass, which has been linked to Star Wars

2741
02:36:06,040 --> 02:36:08,920
Speaker 4: through Lea Ahsoka and to a lesser extent like Ray

2742
02:36:08,959 --> 02:36:12,080
Speaker 4: and Jim, and this trobe is itself kind of low

2743
02:36:12,160 --> 02:36:15,920
Speaker 4: key misogynistic. But in and Or, we have mon Mathma,

2744
02:36:16,000 --> 02:36:17,800
Speaker 4: we have Vel, we have Sinto, we have Claya, we

2745
02:36:17,800 --> 02:36:20,360
Speaker 4: have Dedro, we have Marvel, we have Bix, And I

2746
02:36:20,360 --> 02:36:24,080
Speaker 4: think motherhood is something that characters should be allowed to embrace.

2747
02:36:24,080 --> 02:36:26,360
Speaker 4: And like motherhoods always had a very tricky relationship with

2748
02:36:26,360 --> 02:36:29,600
Speaker 4: Star Wars because of Padme, But like, being a mom

2749
02:36:29,760 --> 02:36:32,560
Speaker 4: is not the issue with Bix's character. No, you can

2750
02:36:32,600 --> 02:36:35,280
Speaker 4: still critique how she was relegated to becoming like the

2751
02:36:35,320 --> 02:36:38,520
Speaker 4: punching bag for the show, but being a mother is

2752
02:36:38,600 --> 02:36:43,640
Speaker 4: like not bad. There's a quote from the Palestinian militant

2753
02:36:44,200 --> 02:36:49,200
Speaker 4: Leila Khalid like revolution must mean life, also every aspect

2754
02:36:49,200 --> 02:36:53,160
Speaker 4: of life, and she specifically referenced motherhood. And like Bix

2755
02:36:53,320 --> 02:36:56,360
Speaker 4: is a fighter, she is a survivor. She fights her

2756
02:36:56,360 --> 02:36:59,360
Speaker 4: way out of depression and PTSD, and she does spend

2757
02:36:59,520 --> 02:37:03,160
Speaker 4: years in age and revolutionary action, and yes, it may

2758
02:37:03,280 --> 02:37:05,400
Speaker 4: it may have been nice to see more of that

2759
02:37:05,440 --> 02:37:09,959
Speaker 4: revolutionary action on screen. We do see some it might

2760
02:37:09,959 --> 02:37:11,920
Speaker 4: have been nice, but this is also write a limited

2761
02:37:11,920 --> 02:37:15,240
Speaker 4: series show with a ton of characters, like four hundred

2762
02:37:15,240 --> 02:37:19,039
Speaker 4: speaking roles, and yeah, that is not been afforded to everybody,

2763
02:37:19,080 --> 02:37:22,120
Speaker 4: and that can be unfortunate. But I think I understand

2764
02:37:22,120 --> 02:37:25,400
Speaker 4: what's going on with this character, and I do not

2765
02:37:25,520 --> 02:37:29,560
Speaker 4: think the problem is the baby itself. I think that's

2766
02:37:29,600 --> 02:37:33,400
Speaker 4: actually fine, and her deciding after years of fighting to

2767
02:37:33,800 --> 02:37:35,680
Speaker 4: take like a few years off to have a baby

2768
02:37:36,000 --> 02:37:37,959
Speaker 4: should be viewed as a choice that like she's like

2769
02:37:38,040 --> 02:37:40,080
Speaker 4: allowed to make. I guess.

2770
02:37:40,360 --> 02:37:43,200
Speaker 2: I also think there's there's something like there's a lot

2771
02:37:43,200 --> 02:37:46,280
Speaker 2: of agency in the choice to like I'm done, but

2772
02:37:46,360 --> 02:37:49,199
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna make that decision for this other person

2773
02:37:49,320 --> 02:37:53,080
Speaker 2: for Cassian. Yeah yeah, but I don't know like it

2774
02:37:53,720 --> 02:37:56,160
Speaker 2: scanned to me. I do like thinking that in this

2775
02:37:56,240 --> 02:37:58,360
Speaker 2: last scene is where like watching these last bits of

2776
02:37:58,400 --> 02:38:00,720
Speaker 2: all our characters, you know, not only people have pointed

2777
02:38:00,760 --> 02:38:03,440
Speaker 2: out is Cassie and going to be dead in like

2778
02:38:03,480 --> 02:38:08,240
Speaker 2: two days, along with Ben Mendelssohn and shortly thereafter grandmav Tarkin,

2779
02:38:08,800 --> 02:38:11,640
Speaker 2: but like all the other stuff that's canonically going down,

2780
02:38:11,760 --> 02:38:15,120
Speaker 2: like right right as fucking Clea sees that first sunrise,

2781
02:38:15,360 --> 02:38:17,960
Speaker 2: Like you have to imagine Han Solo somewhere is doing

2782
02:38:18,000 --> 02:38:21,000
Speaker 2: a line off of like a space prostitute in some

2783
02:38:21,080 --> 02:38:24,000
Speaker 2: sleazy bar. It's like four am in the morning where

2784
02:38:24,000 --> 02:38:26,800
Speaker 2: he is. He hasn't slept in days. You know, Luke

2785
02:38:26,840 --> 02:38:29,000
Speaker 2: Skywalker is looking at his on uncle being like, well,

2786
02:38:29,000 --> 02:38:32,000
Speaker 2: they're never going to be lit on fire, obviously. Just

2787
02:38:32,080 --> 02:38:33,280
Speaker 2: beautiful to.

2788
02:38:33,320 --> 02:38:35,480
Speaker 4: Kind of reiterate on the point about how like fascism

2789
02:38:35,480 --> 02:38:37,400
Speaker 4: that also eats its own is something that Tony has

2790
02:38:37,480 --> 02:38:41,040
Speaker 4: discussed before, specifically in relation to like Cyril and Dedra

2791
02:38:41,480 --> 02:38:42,160
Speaker 4: and protographs.

2792
02:38:42,280 --> 02:38:42,400
Speaker 10: Right.

2793
02:38:42,840 --> 02:38:46,039
Speaker 4: Tony says, like quote, fascism doesn't just take down the oppressed,

2794
02:38:46,080 --> 02:38:48,000
Speaker 4: It doesn't just come for the people trying to control.

2795
02:38:48,440 --> 02:38:51,560
Speaker 4: It inevitably destroys the people who have worked the hardest

2796
02:38:51,560 --> 02:38:54,560
Speaker 4: to build it. And that's been true all through history

2797
02:38:54,560 --> 02:38:57,720
Speaker 4: as well. In a different interview, he says, the empire

2798
02:38:57,760 --> 02:39:01,240
Speaker 4: is just shattering, fragment and grabbing, destroyed and taking, and

2799
02:39:01,280 --> 02:39:03,520
Speaker 4: then the people that are doing it on the imperial

2800
02:39:03,560 --> 02:39:06,240
Speaker 4: side are all isolated. They think they're part of something,

2801
02:39:06,280 --> 02:39:08,440
Speaker 4: but really they're not. Look at what happens to Dedra,

2802
02:39:08,520 --> 02:39:10,879
Speaker 4: Look at what happens to Potographs, Look what happens to

2803
02:39:10,959 --> 02:39:14,039
Speaker 4: Cyril Karn he tries to believe in the dream. It's

2804
02:39:14,080 --> 02:39:17,040
Speaker 4: the carelessness and the cruelty and the lack of empathy.

2805
02:39:17,280 --> 02:39:20,120
Speaker 4: That's what I'm pitching. Even in this little final montage,

2806
02:39:20,120 --> 02:39:22,959
Speaker 4: we have this brief shot of Parin, which is interesting.

2807
02:39:23,000 --> 02:39:27,280
Speaker 4: That's man Mathma's a strange husband, I guess. And Tony

2808
02:39:27,320 --> 02:39:30,560
Speaker 4: has discussed paren as well, and during like the wedding scene,

2809
02:39:30,800 --> 02:39:33,400
Speaker 4: we learned that that as a kid, like while he

2810
02:39:33,400 --> 02:39:35,080
Speaker 4: was in school, he was kind of a a quote

2811
02:39:35,120 --> 02:39:39,400
Speaker 4: unquote political fire brand, and he has sacrificed that a

2812
02:39:39,400 --> 02:39:42,000
Speaker 4: little bit. Tony says, quote there are a lot of

2813
02:39:42,040 --> 02:39:46,119
Speaker 4: sacrifices in this show, all variety of sacrifices. He's made

2814
02:39:46,160 --> 02:39:49,600
Speaker 4: his sacrifice for hedonism. He doesn't look happy in that

2815
02:39:49,800 --> 02:39:52,760
Speaker 4: car unquote. Now I do like the little wrap up

2816
02:39:52,800 --> 02:39:55,519
Speaker 4: we have we have on parents' character there.

2817
02:39:55,560 --> 02:39:58,280
Speaker 2: Although I also love if you'll notice he's with the

2818
02:39:58,320 --> 02:40:01,760
Speaker 2: wife of the Golden daughter off too. It's that you

2819
02:40:01,920 --> 02:40:05,279
Speaker 2: have to assume has gotten purged at this point because

2820
02:40:05,320 --> 02:40:08,160
Speaker 2: they realized that he had been funneling funds to the rebellion.

2821
02:40:08,640 --> 02:40:10,760
Speaker 2: But I I do like we even get that this

2822
02:40:10,840 --> 02:40:13,480
Speaker 2: is this is the only little private rebellion that he

2823
02:40:13,800 --> 02:40:16,920
Speaker 2: can manage right now as he's he's fucking this guy's wife.

2824
02:40:17,040 --> 02:40:19,720
Speaker 4: Everyone has, Everyone has their own rebellion.

2825
02:40:19,840 --> 02:40:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh man.

2826
02:40:21,640 --> 02:40:24,520
Speaker 4: I guess I finally, I at least for me, I

2827
02:40:24,520 --> 02:40:26,879
Speaker 4: guess part of me wanted to see more of like

2828
02:40:26,920 --> 02:40:29,800
Speaker 4: the development of Yaffin as like how like revolutionary celles

2829
02:40:29,840 --> 02:40:32,760
Speaker 4: come together. And Tony has addressed this as well, quote

2830
02:40:33,360 --> 02:40:35,760
Speaker 4: Yavin makes me nervous if you want to know the truth.

2831
02:40:35,800 --> 02:40:38,400
Speaker 4: There's things about Yevin that make me nervous, and the

2832
02:40:38,440 --> 02:40:41,200
Speaker 4: logic about Yavin that makes me nervous. Even within the

2833
02:40:41,240 --> 02:40:43,920
Speaker 4: Star Wars cannon, the security there and how some people

2834
02:40:44,320 --> 02:40:46,320
Speaker 4: know about it but the ice Bea doesn't know about it.

2835
02:40:46,360 --> 02:40:48,480
Speaker 4: And there's some places where you don't want to poke

2836
02:40:48,520 --> 02:40:50,600
Speaker 4: to aggressively because you don't really want to get into

2837
02:40:50,600 --> 02:40:53,280
Speaker 4: the undercarriage. That was a place where I didn't really

2838
02:40:53,320 --> 02:40:56,560
Speaker 4: want to get into the undercarriage very much. That's that

2839
02:40:56,680 --> 02:41:00,640
Speaker 4: is that is understandable. And then finally on Clay and

2840
02:41:00,800 --> 02:41:06,160
Speaker 4: Luthen and specifically like Clia's last look there, like in

2841
02:41:06,200 --> 02:41:09,200
Speaker 4: the morning after her walk in the rain, after all

2842
02:41:09,240 --> 02:41:13,240
Speaker 4: of this, you know, frustration between like Luthen and Yavin.

2843
02:41:14,440 --> 02:41:17,800
Speaker 4: Tony says, quote Cleia and Luthen are over amplifying the

2844
02:41:17,840 --> 02:41:20,240
Speaker 4: distrust and hate in the same way that some of

2845
02:41:20,280 --> 02:41:22,960
Speaker 4: the people on the Alliance are over ramping the disagreement.

2846
02:41:23,080 --> 02:41:25,120
Speaker 4: I think one of my favorite moments in that montage

2847
02:41:25,320 --> 02:41:26,720
Speaker 4: at the end is when clay A wakes up the

2848
02:41:26,720 --> 02:41:28,600
Speaker 4: next morning after her night in the rain, and she

2849
02:41:28,640 --> 02:41:30,640
Speaker 4: looks out and sees that there's people running and people

2850
02:41:30,680 --> 02:41:34,320
Speaker 4: caring supplies, and she's seen how big Yavin is. And

2851
02:41:34,360 --> 02:41:37,120
Speaker 4: there's this mona Lisa's smile that she has that's almost

2852
02:41:37,120 --> 02:41:39,920
Speaker 4: beginning to take pleasure in some sense of ownership of

2853
02:41:39,959 --> 02:41:43,480
Speaker 4: what she's helped create. She realizes how much of a contributor,

2854
02:41:43,480 --> 02:41:46,360
Speaker 4: how much of an investor, she and Luthen are in Yavin.

2855
02:41:46,600 --> 02:41:49,000
Speaker 4: She's watching the people there and just a little moment

2856
02:41:49,000 --> 02:41:51,760
Speaker 4: of pride comes on her face that she warms up

2857
02:41:51,840 --> 02:41:53,920
Speaker 4: just a little bit and begins to take ownership of

2858
02:41:53,959 --> 02:41:57,840
Speaker 4: the rebellion. That's everything to me, unquote.

2859
02:41:57,879 --> 02:42:01,000
Speaker 6: There's something I love about Yavin. Well, you get to

2860
02:42:01,040 --> 02:42:03,400
Speaker 6: see sort of the beauty of it and the beauty

2861
02:42:03,440 --> 02:42:05,160
Speaker 6: of what's going to destroy the empire where it's like

2862
02:42:05,200 --> 02:42:09,160
Speaker 6: you keep just seeing like people who survived all of

2863
02:42:09,200 --> 02:42:11,680
Speaker 6: this shit and make it to yav And like Meshi

2864
02:42:12,320 --> 02:42:15,760
Speaker 6: is like the other survivor of the Narkina FIV like

2865
02:42:15,760 --> 02:42:18,200
Speaker 6: prison break, right, and he's like one of the people

2866
02:42:18,240 --> 02:42:21,600
Speaker 6: going on with the indoor the what's the what's the

2867
02:42:21,640 --> 02:42:24,040
Speaker 6: what's the other rebellion twinks name the kid throw the

2868
02:42:24,200 --> 02:42:28,879
Speaker 6: kitty through the brit Yeah, Willman, Willman's French resistance girlfriend makes.

2869
02:42:28,680 --> 02:42:31,920
Speaker 4: It there, and like all of these like and you.

2870
02:42:31,879 --> 02:42:34,600
Speaker 6: Get this this little microcosmos, like all of these people

2871
02:42:34,720 --> 02:42:37,280
Speaker 6: who are like the survivors of all of these imperial

2872
02:42:37,360 --> 02:42:40,080
Speaker 6: sort of like horrors like have gathered in this place

2873
02:42:40,120 --> 02:42:41,920
Speaker 6: and it's like these are the people who are going

2874
02:42:41,959 --> 02:42:44,160
Speaker 6: to destroy the empire. And I think something really beautiful

2875
02:42:44,160 --> 02:42:46,720
Speaker 6: about that. And then I also think there's a really

2876
02:42:46,720 --> 02:42:49,200
Speaker 6: interesting thing in in the Yavun politics we do see,

2877
02:42:49,240 --> 02:42:51,000
Speaker 6: which is that like you know, so like I get

2878
02:42:51,080 --> 02:42:53,119
Speaker 6: I am notoriously the shows like luth and hater. I'm

2879
02:42:53,120 --> 02:42:54,959
Speaker 6: not really a hater of Luthen. I just I just

2880
02:42:55,040 --> 02:42:57,760
Speaker 6: don't want the most annoying people in the world to

2881
02:42:57,800 --> 02:43:00,800
Speaker 6: try to replicate him in real life. But also like

2882
02:43:01,120 --> 02:43:04,039
Speaker 6: the central rebel command is a shit show. It's complete disasterate.

2883
02:43:04,280 --> 02:43:07,360
Speaker 6: They're like top down hierarchical command from that council. Those

2884
02:43:07,440 --> 02:43:11,040
Speaker 6: people at every every single instance of this attempt to

2885
02:43:11,080 --> 02:43:14,280
Speaker 6: lose the boar, Right, they're too pissed off at Luthan

2886
02:43:14,360 --> 02:43:16,840
Speaker 6: to like listen to the information that he literally fucking

2887
02:43:16,920 --> 02:43:19,640
Speaker 6: died to give them, right, Like this entire operation a

2888
02:43:19,640 --> 02:43:22,040
Speaker 6: bit about giving them the information to destroy the super

2889
02:43:22,080 --> 02:43:23,960
Speaker 6: weapon that will destroy the empire, and they don't want

2890
02:43:23,959 --> 02:43:25,680
Speaker 6: to listen to it. They like in Rogue one, like

2891
02:43:25,680 --> 02:43:28,120
Speaker 6: that council tries to surrender, like they literally vote to

2892
02:43:28,160 --> 02:43:29,760
Speaker 6: be like yeah, sorry, we can't fight the Empire.

2893
02:43:29,800 --> 02:43:30,480
Speaker 4: They're too strong.

2894
02:43:30,640 --> 02:43:33,880
Speaker 6: And then like the rebel military defects and this is

2895
02:43:33,959 --> 02:43:36,039
Speaker 6: not the fact, like they say disrection, they go right,

2896
02:43:36,080 --> 02:43:39,640
Speaker 6: they rebel Yeah, they go rogue and they and they're

2897
02:43:39,640 --> 02:43:40,959
Speaker 6: the ones you do this. And I think it's this

2898
02:43:41,040 --> 02:43:43,600
Speaker 6: interesting thing here. As much as Gilray doesn't want to

2899
02:43:43,600 --> 02:43:46,960
Speaker 6: like touch Yavin that much, there's this there's an interesting

2900
02:43:46,959 --> 02:43:49,520
Speaker 6: political dynamic of like yeah, okay, so like we finally

2901
02:43:49,560 --> 02:43:51,800
Speaker 6: developed this sort of like centralized political force capable of

2902
02:43:51,800 --> 02:43:54,920
Speaker 6: bring all these things together, and they're useless. They are

2903
02:43:54,920 --> 02:43:58,640
Speaker 6: worse than useless. They they they nearly destroy the rebellion

2904
02:43:58,680 --> 02:44:00,400
Speaker 6: that they had been sort of like trying to together

2905
02:44:00,440 --> 02:44:03,400
Speaker 6: on multiple occasions. And they're only stopped by doing that

2906
02:44:03,520 --> 02:44:06,880
Speaker 6: by these sort of like unhinged gorilla like people who

2907
02:44:06,959 --> 02:44:09,600
Speaker 6: are completely out of control and like these like rogue

2908
02:44:09,640 --> 02:44:12,000
Speaker 6: operator people who.

2909
02:44:11,760 --> 02:44:16,120
Speaker 2: Are fundamentally like the the inheritors to Luthan's legacy, right,

2910
02:44:16,280 --> 02:44:18,359
Speaker 2: like which is Cassie in Yeah.

2911
02:44:17,959 --> 02:44:21,320
Speaker 6: By the actual rebels, not the fucking senators. And I

2912
02:44:21,320 --> 02:44:23,560
Speaker 6: think that's like a because I've been I've been seeing

2913
02:44:24,480 --> 02:44:27,080
Speaker 6: there's been I've been seeing some small attempts to like

2914
02:44:27,120 --> 02:44:28,640
Speaker 6: recuperate mon Mathma from this.

2915
02:44:28,680 --> 02:44:31,360
Speaker 4: It's like, no, Matha's the only senator who backs the.

2916
02:44:31,560 --> 02:44:34,320
Speaker 6: Like go for it, like we're we're carrying out this

2917
02:44:34,440 --> 02:44:36,200
Speaker 6: ray to see the desk star plants, like she's the

2918
02:44:36,200 --> 02:44:39,680
Speaker 6: only one, right, And I think there's this is this

2919
02:44:39,720 --> 02:44:41,880
Speaker 6: is like the fund the actual fundamental break here is

2920
02:44:42,920 --> 02:44:47,280
Speaker 6: between these people. Is it's like when when when the

2921
02:44:47,360 --> 02:44:49,879
Speaker 6: chips are down, are you willing to fight? And most

2922
02:44:49,879 --> 02:44:53,280
Speaker 6: of the sort of like like liberal sort of like

2923
02:44:53,360 --> 02:44:58,720
Speaker 6: defecting noble leadership isn't except for Mathma, and she should.

2924
02:45:00,120 --> 02:45:02,560
Speaker 6: And so it's like I want to go down fighting,

2925
02:45:02,640 --> 02:45:03,679
Speaker 6: and that's.

2926
02:45:03,320 --> 02:45:06,280
Speaker 2: The fundament I'm gonna go down swinging. Yeah, yeah.

2927
02:45:06,320 --> 02:45:09,520
Speaker 6: And that's the fundamental difference between like someone who politically

2928
02:45:09,520 --> 02:45:12,640
Speaker 6: I don't like, like the Marquis Lafayet, like that motherfucker

2929
02:45:12,720 --> 02:45:16,560
Speaker 6: went down swinging like he. That man, at every single

2930
02:45:16,560 --> 02:45:19,400
Speaker 6: point of his life was always funding an insurrection, was

2931
02:45:19,440 --> 02:45:21,879
Speaker 6: always like I will take let's.

2932
02:45:21,760 --> 02:45:23,640
Speaker 2: They're a punch. Let's they're a punch. Yeah.

2933
02:45:23,720 --> 02:45:25,360
Speaker 6: And then and it's like you can compare that to

2934
02:45:25,400 --> 02:45:28,400
Speaker 6: like the German liberals or like like the liberals who

2935
02:45:28,400 --> 02:45:32,240
Speaker 6: when Pinochet like takes power, were like, yeah, when when

2936
02:45:32,240 --> 02:45:34,880
Speaker 6: Pinochet called them all to like report to like have

2937
02:45:34,959 --> 02:45:36,840
Speaker 6: meetings with the government, they all went, yeah, we're gonna

2938
02:45:36,840 --> 02:45:38,480
Speaker 6: go report to like talk to the secret police, and

2939
02:45:38,480 --> 02:45:40,400
Speaker 6: they all got like killed, right, And that's the different

2940
02:45:40,440 --> 02:45:41,920
Speaker 6: between those those two things, and that I think is

2941
02:45:41,920 --> 02:45:45,160
Speaker 6: a really really is a crucial political distinction to draw

2942
02:45:45,240 --> 02:45:48,160
Speaker 6: out is like it's not even necessarily like your class background,

2943
02:45:48,160 --> 02:45:49,959
Speaker 6: it's not even necessarily like what your politics are because

2944
02:45:49,959 --> 02:45:51,360
Speaker 6: a lot of these people believe the same things. It's

2945
02:45:51,360 --> 02:45:54,760
Speaker 6: like when when the chips come down, will you fight

2946
02:45:54,959 --> 02:45:56,200
Speaker 6: or will you try to surrender?

2947
02:45:56,520 --> 02:45:57,000
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2948
02:45:57,040 --> 02:45:59,440
Speaker 6: And that's the thing I think, I don't know like that,

2949
02:45:59,400 --> 02:46:01,520
Speaker 6: that's to me, the best part of and Or is

2950
02:46:01,560 --> 02:46:03,760
Speaker 6: like that. And I think that's the part of it

2951
02:46:03,840 --> 02:46:06,040
Speaker 6: that's like being set up in this episode that I love.

2952
02:46:06,680 --> 02:46:08,760
Speaker 4: The very last thing I'll say, because this has gone

2953
02:46:08,760 --> 02:46:14,000
Speaker 4: on wait for quite a while, I'm sorry, is like

2954
02:46:14,120 --> 02:46:16,200
Speaker 4: I was talking with a friend after we watch these episodes,

2955
02:46:16,240 --> 02:46:18,520
Speaker 4: and we were talking about how this show really, in

2956
02:46:18,560 --> 02:46:23,320
Speaker 4: the end is a call for internationalism. Planets are stand

2957
02:46:23,360 --> 02:46:25,920
Speaker 4: ins for different countries and different cities, right, and like

2958
02:46:25,959 --> 02:46:29,039
Speaker 4: they aren't doing the full revolution on Correscant, like the

2959
02:46:29,080 --> 02:46:33,200
Speaker 4: Center for Imperial Power right the Imperial Core. There is

2960
02:46:33,240 --> 02:46:35,959
Speaker 4: some organization happening there, right, Like there is people based

2961
02:46:35,959 --> 02:46:39,080
Speaker 4: out of there. There's networking, right, like Luten's intel shop

2962
02:46:39,120 --> 02:46:41,800
Speaker 4: is there. But most of like the physical arm struggle

2963
02:46:41,879 --> 02:46:44,640
Speaker 4: is on other planets. The first base for the Alliance

2964
02:46:44,640 --> 02:46:46,760
Speaker 4: is built on the aff and four, but the rebellion

2965
02:46:46,800 --> 02:46:50,680
Speaker 4: isn't initially like overthrowing the Empire on Correscant, though through

2966
02:46:50,720 --> 02:46:54,640
Speaker 4: their interplanetary efforts, the whole galaxy gets liberated and the

2967
02:46:54,680 --> 02:46:58,600
Speaker 4: seat of power can be seized. And that's sort of

2968
02:46:58,640 --> 02:47:02,480
Speaker 4: like galaxy wide cooperation mirroring like a worldwide cooperation that

2969
02:47:02,520 --> 02:47:04,520
Speaker 4: we have like really like lost in the past past

2970
02:47:04,520 --> 02:47:07,360
Speaker 4: few decades. Yeah, I think is one of I think

2971
02:47:07,520 --> 02:47:09,720
Speaker 4: one of the points that that should be taken away

2972
02:47:09,760 --> 02:47:11,480
Speaker 4: from from and or here.

2973
02:47:12,080 --> 02:47:15,359
Speaker 2: Yep, all right, well I think that's our episode.

2974
02:47:15,800 --> 02:47:33,280
Speaker 10: Yep, bye everybody.

2975
02:47:42,040 --> 02:47:45,840
Speaker 4: This is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly

2976
02:47:45,879 --> 02:47:49,400
Speaker 4: newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world,

2977
02:47:49,400 --> 02:47:51,680
Speaker 4: and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today

2978
02:47:51,680 --> 02:47:55,480
Speaker 4: I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Sophie Lichterman.

2979
02:47:56,320 --> 02:47:59,000
Speaker 4: This episode, we are covering the week of May fifteen

2980
02:47:59,160 --> 02:48:03,160
Speaker 4: to May twenty. First, Joe Biden has prostate cancer. There's

2981
02:48:03,200 --> 02:48:07,000
Speaker 4: anti natalist terrorism, and the DHS is maybe gonna do

2982
02:48:07,040 --> 02:48:10,120
Speaker 4: a reality TV show. Probably not, but it's a bad plan.

2983
02:48:10,760 --> 02:48:11,720
Speaker 4: How are we doing this week?

2984
02:48:11,840 --> 02:48:13,280
Speaker 1: That was a trifector from hell?

2985
02:48:13,920 --> 02:48:15,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so bad.

2986
02:48:15,840 --> 02:48:16,960
Speaker 4: This one's so bad.

2987
02:48:17,120 --> 02:48:21,240
Speaker 6: It's really I have to do the laughing like right here,

2988
02:48:21,360 --> 02:48:26,280
Speaker 6: because good lord, like, oh many many of these weeks

2989
02:48:26,280 --> 02:48:26,600
Speaker 6: are bad.

2990
02:48:26,680 --> 02:48:28,040
Speaker 4: This one's particularly bad.

2991
02:48:28,600 --> 02:48:31,560
Speaker 1: I don't know DHS reality show.

2992
02:48:32,240 --> 02:48:35,760
Speaker 4: We'll get to that at the at the ending segment. Sure, Hey,

2993
02:48:35,840 --> 02:48:38,959
Speaker 4: this is Gear from the Future cutting in. We recorded

2994
02:48:38,959 --> 02:48:41,640
Speaker 4: this a few hours before some pretty major news the

2995
02:48:41,640 --> 02:48:45,280
Speaker 4: shooting of two Israeli embassy staff in DC. We will

2996
02:48:45,320 --> 02:48:49,520
Speaker 4: be talking about this in next week's Executive Disorder, as

2997
02:48:49,520 --> 02:48:53,400
Speaker 4: well as the new budget bill, which targets trans healthcare.

2998
02:48:54,320 --> 02:48:59,000
Speaker 4: Now back to the episode. I think let's start with,

2999
02:48:59,240 --> 02:49:03,720
Speaker 4: you know, a brief acknowledgment of Joe Biden's prostate cancer.

3000
02:49:03,879 --> 02:49:05,840
Speaker 4: What was Jill doing to him? Oh?

3001
02:49:05,879 --> 02:49:08,400
Speaker 5: By god, Garrison, you could have said that start at

3002
02:49:08,400 --> 02:49:09,640
Speaker 5: the bottom, man, you didn't.

3003
02:49:09,920 --> 02:49:11,640
Speaker 4: I'm allowed to say that because I'm the most gay

3004
02:49:11,680 --> 02:49:14,119
Speaker 4: guy coded person on the podcast, which is saying something

3005
02:49:15,160 --> 02:49:21,640
Speaker 4: so so yes then and now, because we live in

3006
02:49:21,680 --> 02:49:26,080
Speaker 4: a truly sick world. Scott Adams couldn't even let.

3007
02:49:26,080 --> 02:49:27,800
Speaker 1: He could, He couldn't let him have his moment.

3008
02:49:28,360 --> 02:49:30,720
Speaker 4: He couldn't even let Joe Biden have his moment. This

3009
02:49:30,840 --> 02:49:34,600
Speaker 4: anti Biden hatred has transcended so far that Scott Adams

3010
02:49:34,640 --> 02:49:37,080
Speaker 4: couldn't even let Biden have his moment, and announced the

3011
02:49:37,160 --> 02:49:39,760
Speaker 4: same day that Scott Adams has the exact same type

3012
02:49:39,760 --> 02:49:45,920
Speaker 4: of prostate cancer. So to two down, Biden down, Dilbert down,

3013
02:49:46,480 --> 02:49:48,800
Speaker 4: Big week for prostate cancer and bloy.

3014
02:49:48,879 --> 02:49:50,920
Speaker 1: How do you have people been weird about it on

3015
02:49:50,959 --> 02:49:51,560
Speaker 1: the internet.

3016
02:49:52,320 --> 02:49:55,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not going to get into how long he

3017
02:49:55,400 --> 02:49:58,720
Speaker 4: maybe has known he's had it. He's he's had skin

3018
02:49:58,800 --> 02:50:02,520
Speaker 4: cancer moved before. I think that ship has mostly sailed.

3019
02:50:03,080 --> 02:50:05,680
Speaker 4: I think our opinions on Biden are pretty are pretty well,

3020
02:50:05,879 --> 02:50:08,320
Speaker 4: pretty well documented. Yeah, so I don't think we can

3021
02:50:08,360 --> 02:50:10,240
Speaker 4: dedicate much more, much more time to this.

3022
02:50:11,000 --> 02:50:11,280
Speaker 5: Okay.

3023
02:50:11,520 --> 02:50:13,120
Speaker 6: The one important note that I will say is if

3024
02:50:13,120 --> 02:50:16,920
Speaker 6: you have a prostate get check for prostate cancer. Yeah, like, yeah,

3025
02:50:17,080 --> 02:50:17,760
Speaker 6: get the screening.

3026
02:50:17,879 --> 02:50:19,119
Speaker 4: It's good, it'll help.

3027
02:50:19,000 --> 02:50:22,240
Speaker 5: You unless you are over seventy five, in which case

3028
02:50:22,280 --> 02:50:24,800
Speaker 5: I think most people don't get screened for it right

3029
02:50:24,840 --> 02:50:25,960
Speaker 5: because it's slow gross.

3030
02:50:26,280 --> 02:50:28,480
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure Biden's over seventy five.

3031
02:50:28,760 --> 02:50:31,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's why somewhat I thought it was somewhat remarkable

3032
02:50:31,480 --> 02:50:32,400
Speaker 5: part of the issue there.

3033
02:50:32,680 --> 02:50:34,640
Speaker 1: I mean, all I can say is about once a

3034
02:50:34,640 --> 02:50:38,000
Speaker 1: month I think about how at the DNC those thank

3035
02:50:38,040 --> 02:50:41,280
Speaker 1: you Joe Chance lasted four seconds.

3036
02:50:41,720 --> 02:50:43,760
Speaker 4: I have actually been thinking about the thank you Joe

3037
02:50:43,879 --> 02:50:47,279
Speaker 4: Chance for a lot of this time yes week. Frankly,

3038
02:50:49,000 --> 02:50:51,040
Speaker 4: you had to be there. Yeah, it's one of the

3039
02:50:51,040 --> 02:50:54,560
Speaker 4: most it's one of the most horrifying, horrifying things. Hm

3040
02:50:55,160 --> 02:50:57,760
Speaker 4: as they let this like very clearly dying old man

3041
02:50:57,760 --> 02:51:00,000
Speaker 4: out to pasture, because like you know, kinds are diagnosis

3042
02:51:01,040 --> 02:51:03,400
Speaker 4: very clear, he was in some degree of decline. We

3043
02:51:03,440 --> 02:51:05,360
Speaker 4: don't need to retread this. This is this is pretty

3044
02:51:05,400 --> 02:51:07,879
Speaker 4: well known. But no, I have been thinking about how

3045
02:51:08,320 --> 02:51:11,760
Speaker 4: that whole auditorium broke out and chanting thank you Joe

3046
02:51:11,800 --> 02:51:13,440
Speaker 4: for like nearly five.

3047
02:51:13,280 --> 02:51:16,039
Speaker 1: Minutes, and then the following the rest of the week

3048
02:51:16,560 --> 02:51:18,680
Speaker 1: not a single mention it.

3049
02:51:18,600 --> 02:51:24,360
Speaker 4: Was done that day. It was wild anyways, So yeah,

3050
02:51:24,520 --> 02:51:29,400
Speaker 4: ri Ip Dilbert, I guess let's move on to anti

3051
02:51:29,720 --> 02:51:34,520
Speaker 4: natalist terrorism. So I've learned this week that people don't

3052
02:51:34,600 --> 02:51:36,920
Speaker 4: know what anti natalism is, which, as someone who grew

3053
02:51:36,959 --> 02:51:39,040
Speaker 4: up in Portland, is kind of surprising to me because

3054
02:51:39,120 --> 02:51:43,160
Speaker 4: there was some very very prominent, like anti needalist protesters

3055
02:51:43,160 --> 02:51:46,000
Speaker 4: who had set up downtown outside of Powell's books pretty frequently,

3056
02:51:46,440 --> 02:51:48,720
Speaker 4: and we kind of all grew accustomed to them, and honestly,

3057
02:51:48,720 --> 02:51:51,240
Speaker 4: I'm a little bit sympathetic to their arguments. I understand

3058
02:51:51,240 --> 02:51:54,400
Speaker 4: where they're coming from. Anti natalism is to belief that

3059
02:51:54,480 --> 02:51:57,640
Speaker 4: procreation is unethical. This could be based on the idea

3060
02:51:57,720 --> 02:52:00,119
Speaker 4: that there's been like this rapid increase in human population,

3061
02:52:00,280 --> 02:52:03,000
Speaker 4: which is done extensive damage to the planet, or that's

3062
02:52:03,000 --> 02:52:07,160
Speaker 4: simply being born is inherently a non consensual act, especially

3063
02:52:07,240 --> 02:52:10,080
Speaker 4: being born into a world with high levels of suffering.

3064
02:52:10,600 --> 02:52:14,119
Speaker 4: So these people opt to do not have children. As

3065
02:52:14,160 --> 02:52:17,959
Speaker 4: this ethical standpoint, everyone's entitled to their own choice. You

3066
02:52:17,959 --> 02:52:21,320
Speaker 4: don't need to agree with it, but whatever. Now, Interestingly,

3067
02:52:21,640 --> 02:52:25,800
Speaker 4: this past weekend there was a quote unquote active terrorism

3068
02:52:26,000 --> 02:52:30,120
Speaker 4: that has been linked to anti natalist philosophy. I'm just

3069
02:52:30,160 --> 02:52:33,680
Speaker 4: talking about this as it is an instance of kind

3070
02:52:33,680 --> 02:52:39,000
Speaker 4: of the brain ratification of this entire society and the

3071
02:52:39,240 --> 02:52:43,080
Speaker 4: reditification of terrorism, combined with this growing sense of like

3072
02:52:43,200 --> 02:52:48,320
Speaker 4: nihilism driving violent extremist actions. No one was killed except

3073
02:52:48,320 --> 02:52:52,080
Speaker 4: for the perpetrator alleged for perpetrator in this incident, but

3074
02:52:52,080 --> 02:52:54,040
Speaker 4: I still think this is worth talking about as it

3075
02:52:54,200 --> 02:52:58,120
Speaker 4: can be seen as in a sequence of weird terrorism.

3076
02:52:58,200 --> 02:53:00,120
Speaker 4: This is something that Roberts can be working on on

3077
02:53:00,920 --> 02:53:03,720
Speaker 4: for a piece later later down the line. Right, this

3078
02:53:03,840 --> 02:53:06,039
Speaker 4: is not the first car bomb this year. We had

3079
02:53:06,080 --> 02:53:09,879
Speaker 4: the Tesla Tesla cyber truck explosion earlier, which was similarly

3080
02:53:10,040 --> 02:53:13,200
Speaker 4: kind of a weird, a weird incident. Yeah, that one was.

3081
02:53:13,400 --> 02:53:15,600
Speaker 6: I think that one, I think was the official inauguration

3082
02:53:15,640 --> 02:53:18,400
Speaker 6: of the years of lead paint which were perpetually living

3083
02:53:18,400 --> 02:53:18,800
Speaker 6: in now.

3084
02:53:19,480 --> 02:53:23,080
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, I mean the gas leak heear if you will, Yeah,

3085
02:53:23,120 --> 02:53:25,520
Speaker 4: so yes. On Saturday May seventeenth, the car bomb went

3086
02:53:25,560 --> 02:53:30,800
Speaker 4: off outside a fertility clinic in Palm Springs, California, killing

3087
02:53:30,840 --> 02:53:34,360
Speaker 4: the suspect, twenty five year old man named Guy Edwards Barkas.

3088
02:53:34,840 --> 02:53:37,480
Speaker 4: The FBI is calling this a quote unquote intentional act

3089
02:53:37,520 --> 02:53:40,640
Speaker 4: of terrorism. The clinic was closed when the explosion happened.

3090
02:53:40,879 --> 02:53:43,760
Speaker 4: The building was severely damaged, but no embryos were harmed.

3091
02:53:44,560 --> 02:53:48,039
Speaker 4: Investigators believe that the suspect attempted to live stream the bombing,

3092
02:53:48,440 --> 02:53:51,320
Speaker 4: with a website being found online that appeared to be

3093
02:53:51,400 --> 02:53:54,280
Speaker 4: in connection to the incident, where the suspect describes himself

3094
02:53:54,320 --> 02:53:57,240
Speaker 4: as a quot unquote pro mortalist.

3095
02:53:57,760 --> 02:54:00,199
Speaker 5: Slightly slightly different from man.

3096
02:54:00,800 --> 02:54:01,000
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3097
02:54:01,000 --> 02:54:01,280
Speaker 2: Correct.

3098
02:54:01,440 --> 02:54:05,119
Speaker 4: It is more of an affirmative version of anti natalism,

3099
02:54:06,560 --> 02:54:09,959
Speaker 4: where you want to actually take concrete steps to like

3100
02:54:10,120 --> 02:54:13,800
Speaker 4: decrease the population of the planet, not necessarily in a

3101
02:54:13,840 --> 02:54:17,199
Speaker 4: way that's like promoting like the mass killing of individuals.

3102
02:54:17,920 --> 02:54:21,400
Speaker 4: He says, quote understand, your death is already guarantee, and

3103
02:54:21,440 --> 02:54:24,000
Speaker 4: you can thank your parents for that one. All a

3104
02:54:24,080 --> 02:54:26,640
Speaker 4: pro mortalist is saying is let's make it happen sooner

3105
02:54:26,840 --> 02:54:30,720
Speaker 4: rather than later to prevent your future suffering and more importantly,

3106
02:54:30,760 --> 02:54:34,600
Speaker 4: the suffering your existence will cause to all other sentient beings.

3107
02:54:35,440 --> 02:54:37,600
Speaker 4: That's his definition of a promortalist. It can be linked

3108
02:54:37,600 --> 02:54:40,360
Speaker 4: to other philosophies that encourage like self harm and ending

3109
02:54:40,400 --> 02:54:43,440
Speaker 4: your own life as a conscious choice. On this website,

3110
02:54:43,440 --> 02:54:47,240
Speaker 4: he discussed his goal of quote sterilizing this planet of

3111
02:54:47,280 --> 02:54:51,280
Speaker 4: the disease of life unquote great and declared the need

3112
02:54:51,360 --> 02:54:56,160
Speaker 4: for a quote unquote war against pro lifers. His website

3113
02:54:56,200 --> 02:55:04,199
Speaker 4: also highlights other philosophies such as negative utilitarianism, ethlism, abolitionist veganism. Quote. Basically,

3114
02:55:04,200 --> 02:55:08,600
Speaker 4: philosophies that have realized religion is are worded that there

3115
02:55:08,680 --> 02:55:13,080
Speaker 4: is objective value in the universe and it lies in

3116
02:55:13,120 --> 02:55:17,160
Speaker 4: the harm being experienced by sentient beings. So although it

3117
02:55:17,200 --> 02:55:20,400
Speaker 4: may seem quote unquote dark, it's the polar opposite of

3118
02:55:20,520 --> 02:55:27,200
Speaker 4: nonsense like nihilism unquote. Negative utilitarianism is something that comes

3119
02:55:27,280 --> 02:55:29,760
Speaker 4: up a few times on his site as well. This

3120
02:55:29,920 --> 02:55:33,039
Speaker 4: is the viewpoint that instead of positive utilitarianism where we

3121
02:55:33,040 --> 02:55:35,880
Speaker 4: try to maximize, you know, human pleasure, this is trying

3122
02:55:35,920 --> 02:55:39,560
Speaker 4: to minimize suffering, human suffering and like the suffering tied

3123
02:55:39,600 --> 02:55:43,280
Speaker 4: to existence and the like aggurate suffering as well as

3124
02:55:43,400 --> 02:55:45,160
Speaker 4: if you if there's more people and there's going to

3125
02:55:45,200 --> 02:55:48,800
Speaker 4: be more suffering, so you should both make choices in

3126
02:55:48,840 --> 02:55:51,640
Speaker 4: your own life that that may that may limit your suffering,

3127
02:55:51,680 --> 02:55:54,320
Speaker 4: but also make sure that you don't reproduce, because then

3128
02:55:54,400 --> 02:55:57,320
Speaker 4: even more suffering will happen because of your actions through

3129
02:55:57,400 --> 02:55:58,720
Speaker 4: your children.

3130
02:55:58,800 --> 02:56:01,119
Speaker 6: This is the most bare is shit I've ever heard

3131
02:56:01,200 --> 02:56:03,640
Speaker 6: of my entire goddamn very West Coast.

3132
02:56:03,720 --> 02:56:07,400
Speaker 5: This is yeah, like twenty nine Palms is not It's

3133
02:56:07,480 --> 02:56:08,320
Speaker 5: not the West Coast.

3134
02:56:08,520 --> 02:56:10,200
Speaker 4: Like a lot of this is in conversation with like

3135
02:56:10,240 --> 02:56:15,680
Speaker 4: the rationalist subculture rationalist it's like it offers different solutions.

3136
02:56:15,720 --> 02:56:18,080
Speaker 6: These these people shouldn't be allowed to use computers for

3137
02:56:18,160 --> 02:56:21,920
Speaker 6: like fifty years, Like just a band on California using computers.

3138
02:56:22,200 --> 02:56:25,400
Speaker 4: This is all like deeply online stuff like these are

3139
02:56:25,640 --> 02:56:30,120
Speaker 4: these are popular websites, subreddits like YouTube channels. These are

3140
02:56:30,120 --> 02:56:32,960
Speaker 4: people who are dealing with like, you know, pretty intense

3141
02:56:33,000 --> 02:56:37,760
Speaker 4: existentialism depression, who then channel it into this like semi

3142
02:56:37,879 --> 02:56:43,160
Speaker 4: niche like online community and online philosophy. Now, Guy's best friend,

3143
02:56:43,200 --> 02:56:48,879
Speaker 4: a self described quote vegan rad femme, anti datist, recently

3144
02:56:49,120 --> 02:56:52,560
Speaker 4: arranged her own suicide by having her boyfriend to shoot

3145
02:56:52,600 --> 02:56:53,240
Speaker 4: her while she.

3146
02:56:53,280 --> 02:56:55,640
Speaker 1: Was what what what?

3147
02:56:55,840 --> 02:56:56,600
Speaker 5: Correct?

3148
02:56:57,000 --> 02:57:01,320
Speaker 4: Yes, this was This was the themer's best friend who

3149
02:57:01,760 --> 02:57:06,200
Speaker 4: died very recently, like last month. And Guy claims that

3150
02:57:06,240 --> 02:57:10,439
Speaker 4: they were both quote unquote anti sex missandrists with borderline

3151
02:57:10,480 --> 02:57:13,959
Speaker 4: personality disorder, and he admits that her death quote unquote

3152
02:57:14,040 --> 02:57:18,560
Speaker 4: put him over the edge.

3153
02:57:19,000 --> 02:57:23,839
Speaker 6: This is the most. This is the most online like

3154
02:57:23,840 --> 02:57:32,120
Speaker 6: like like best best friend anti natalist has her boyfriend

3155
02:57:32,280 --> 02:57:35,199
Speaker 6: shoot her is the most.

3156
02:57:35,120 --> 02:57:38,440
Speaker 4: Even though her her anti natalist tumblr page has like

3157
02:57:38,560 --> 02:57:43,040
Speaker 4: women loving women, anti gender ideology, miss andry stuff and

3158
02:57:43,120 --> 02:57:45,360
Speaker 4: yet still has a sister gender boyfriend. In many such cases,

3159
02:57:46,920 --> 02:57:48,520
Speaker 4: so yeah, you can see how this type of a

3160
02:57:48,560 --> 02:57:51,080
Speaker 4: community gets like fostered, and people make online friends and

3161
02:57:51,080 --> 02:57:53,600
Speaker 4: then encourage their own self destruction. Yeah, you have to

3162
02:57:53,640 --> 02:57:56,280
Speaker 4: destroy the Internet. A quote that he has on his

3163
02:57:56,320 --> 02:57:58,920
Speaker 4: website is quote I've known for years now that I

3164
02:57:59,000 --> 02:58:01,320
Speaker 4: wasn't going to allow myself to make it past my

3165
02:58:01,400 --> 02:58:04,600
Speaker 4: twenties unquote, And like this is a sentiment I hear

3166
02:58:04,680 --> 02:58:07,320
Speaker 4: even a lot of like young people saying, is it's

3167
02:58:07,440 --> 02:58:10,520
Speaker 4: like this like belief that they're not going to survive

3168
02:58:10,640 --> 02:58:12,800
Speaker 4: their twenties, Like like their belief that like the world

3169
02:58:12,879 --> 02:58:15,800
Speaker 4: is so bent on destruction that I'm probably not going

3170
02:58:15,879 --> 02:58:17,280
Speaker 4: to make it out of my twenties right now, and

3171
02:58:17,320 --> 02:58:19,720
Speaker 4: that that that changes the kind of choices that young

3172
02:58:19,760 --> 02:58:22,279
Speaker 4: people are making. And this is this is getting increasingly common.

3173
02:58:22,720 --> 02:58:24,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure. I think it's a very different world

3174
02:58:24,879 --> 02:58:28,320
Speaker 5: to be growing up in than like the late teenage,

3175
02:58:28,360 --> 02:58:31,320
Speaker 5: early twenties of you know, like millennial people.

3176
02:58:31,120 --> 02:58:33,879
Speaker 4: The millennial world. It's very it's very different. Yeah, And

3177
02:58:33,920 --> 02:58:36,720
Speaker 4: you even had manifestations of this in that millennial era, right,

3178
02:58:36,760 --> 02:58:39,599
Speaker 4: I think it got kind of pushed into this like

3179
02:58:39,600 --> 02:58:43,080
Speaker 4: like nihilistic school shooter culture, which you still see remnants

3180
02:58:43,120 --> 02:58:45,360
Speaker 4: of now in the true krime of community. There is

3181
02:58:45,600 --> 02:58:48,800
Speaker 4: some crossover between an act like this and and some

3182
02:58:48,840 --> 02:58:52,120
Speaker 4: of like the school shooter fandom, the Columbiner stuff, especially

3183
02:58:52,120 --> 02:58:55,240
Speaker 4: considering the resurgence of Columbiner culture that we're currently seeing

3184
02:58:55,320 --> 02:58:58,400
Speaker 4: right now in the United States. But yeah, the general

3185
02:58:58,440 --> 02:59:02,160
Speaker 4: sense of like widespread dread and the interconnectedness of this

3186
02:59:02,440 --> 02:59:03,600
Speaker 4: is more unique.

3187
02:59:04,160 --> 02:59:04,360
Speaker 10: Okay.

3188
02:59:04,400 --> 02:59:06,520
Speaker 6: I keep thinking about that Hunter S. Thompson quote about

3189
02:59:06,560 --> 02:59:08,800
Speaker 6: like those poor bastard troop bonever nine to eleven don't

3190
02:59:08,840 --> 02:59:09,680
Speaker 6: know the party's over.

3191
02:59:10,040 --> 02:59:13,560
Speaker 4: The party is over, and yeah, welcome to help. So

3192
02:59:14,240 --> 02:59:17,120
Speaker 4: the suspect's dad said to reporters that guy had a

3193
02:59:17,200 --> 02:59:20,160
Speaker 4: childhood obsession with pyrotechnics. He set the family home on

3194
02:59:20,240 --> 02:59:23,440
Speaker 4: fire and burned it down he was nine. He made rockets,

3195
02:59:23,520 --> 02:59:26,960
Speaker 4: stink bombs, smoke bombs as a child. Videos on YouTube,

3196
02:59:27,160 --> 02:59:30,400
Speaker 4: likely posted by Guy show m eighties exploding in the desert,

3197
02:59:31,000 --> 02:59:33,440
Speaker 4: a hydrogen balloon being set a blaze, and a bucket

3198
02:59:33,440 --> 02:59:35,400
Speaker 4: of radioactive uranium.

3199
02:59:35,120 --> 02:59:37,480
Speaker 5: Or is that what did he obtain that like out

3200
02:59:37,480 --> 02:59:38,400
Speaker 5: there in Wonda Valley.

3201
02:59:38,720 --> 02:59:42,840
Speaker 4: This is still being investigated. His voice in these videos

3202
02:59:42,879 --> 02:59:47,000
Speaker 4: matches the thirty minute audio manifesto explaining his motivation for

3203
02:59:47,040 --> 02:59:50,560
Speaker 4: the attack, saying quote, Basically, it just comes down to

3204
02:59:50,959 --> 02:59:54,120
Speaker 4: I'm angry that I exist and that you know, nobody

3205
02:59:54,120 --> 02:59:57,560
Speaker 4: got my consent to bring me here. Basically, I'm anti

3206
02:59:57,680 --> 03:00:00,920
Speaker 4: life and IVF is kind of like the epitome of

3207
03:00:01,040 --> 03:00:02,439
Speaker 4: pro life ideology.

3208
03:00:03,480 --> 03:00:06,680
Speaker 1: This is out there, is.

3209
03:00:06,600 --> 03:00:09,280
Speaker 5: There any information on the I'm just because a lot

3210
03:00:09,320 --> 03:00:12,240
Speaker 5: of explosives and other munitions have gone missing. Twenty nine

3211
03:00:12,240 --> 03:00:16,240
Speaker 5: Palms people, that familiar is a town near ish to

3212
03:00:16,280 --> 03:00:19,879
Speaker 5: Palm Springs, nearer to Joshua Tree. There's a pretty big

3213
03:00:19,879 --> 03:00:23,280
Speaker 5: military base. Yeah. Yeah, it's the big marine Corde, like

3214
03:00:23,320 --> 03:00:24,560
Speaker 5: desert warfare training.

3215
03:00:24,800 --> 03:00:28,160
Speaker 4: Explosives have gone missing there before. The basic claims that

3216
03:00:28,160 --> 03:00:31,680
Speaker 4: they've been recovered. It is unclear what explosives he used

3217
03:00:31,720 --> 03:00:34,440
Speaker 4: at this point. It was a pretty large explosion. Investigators

3218
03:00:34,440 --> 03:00:37,480
Speaker 4: are low key impressed at this explosion, like.

3219
03:00:37,440 --> 03:00:39,640
Speaker 5: It was it was what they what they said in

3220
03:00:39,240 --> 03:00:41,320
Speaker 5: that official statement.

3221
03:00:41,080 --> 03:00:43,440
Speaker 4: If you read between the lines, they're like surprised at

3222
03:00:43,440 --> 03:00:45,880
Speaker 4: how effective this car bomb was. Again, this was a

3223
03:00:45,920 --> 03:00:47,520
Speaker 4: guy who spent a lot of time online, a lot

3224
03:00:47,520 --> 03:00:49,720
Speaker 4: of time on Reddit. It seems like he got obsessed

3225
03:00:49,720 --> 03:00:52,320
Speaker 4: with this. He had a fascination with explosives at a

3226
03:00:52,360 --> 03:00:55,720
Speaker 4: young age. So that obsession combined with this anti natalist

3227
03:00:55,800 --> 03:00:59,879
Speaker 4: obsession and this urge for self destruction manifested in this action.

3228
03:01:00,400 --> 03:01:00,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3229
03:01:00,800 --> 03:01:05,000
Speaker 4: This this week, Reddit banned anti natalist anti life subreddit

3230
03:01:05,280 --> 03:01:08,480
Speaker 4: allegedly frequented by bomber. Dude.

3231
03:01:08,520 --> 03:01:10,000
Speaker 5: Just want to say that this is I think the

3232
03:01:10,040 --> 03:01:13,560
Speaker 5: only IVS clinic in the Kachiello Valley, So like for

3233
03:01:13,640 --> 03:01:16,640
Speaker 5: people who are accessing those services, that's a serious disruption,

3234
03:01:16,920 --> 03:01:19,320
Speaker 5: right M Yeah, that sucks.

3235
03:01:20,000 --> 03:01:22,680
Speaker 4: So I, me and Robert are going to talk more

3236
03:01:22,720 --> 03:01:25,520
Speaker 4: about kind of this trend that we're seeing in in

3237
03:01:25,600 --> 03:01:29,240
Speaker 4: extremism or in extremist acts. I still don't like the

3238
03:01:29,280 --> 03:01:31,800
Speaker 4: nihilist buy an extremism term, but we are seeing elements

3239
03:01:31,800 --> 03:01:34,240
Speaker 4: of that getting more and more common, especially combined with

3240
03:01:34,240 --> 03:01:36,680
Speaker 4: the true crime community, which essentially tries to encourage young

3241
03:01:36,720 --> 03:01:38,879
Speaker 4: girls to commit school shootings.

3242
03:01:39,320 --> 03:01:41,760
Speaker 5: M h yeah, I guess. To finish up, I just

3243
03:01:41,800 --> 03:01:43,560
Speaker 5: want to say that, like, I know, it's a really

3244
03:01:43,560 --> 03:01:47,120
Speaker 5: hard time right now. A lot of people are trying

3245
03:01:47,120 --> 03:01:49,879
Speaker 5: to find wayte of cope or feeling like they can't cope,

3246
03:01:50,200 --> 03:01:51,280
Speaker 5: or feel that they're not enough.

3247
03:01:51,360 --> 03:01:55,080
Speaker 4: I guess hopelessness. This sort of like existential nihilism.

3248
03:01:55,320 --> 03:01:57,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I'll combine that with a lot of people

3249
03:01:57,480 --> 03:02:00,280
Speaker 5: who work for the government fundly finding themselves out of work,

3250
03:02:00,280 --> 03:02:02,920
Speaker 5: and you know the economic pressure that puts on people,

3251
03:02:02,920 --> 03:02:05,320
Speaker 5: and I understand that people are pretty in a tough

3252
03:02:05,360 --> 03:02:08,800
Speaker 5: spot right now who want to save very briefly obviously,

3253
03:02:08,800 --> 03:02:10,560
Speaker 5: like the world is more beautiful with you in it.

3254
03:02:11,000 --> 03:02:15,480
Speaker 5: And if you're experiencing suicidal ideation or mental health struggles.

3255
03:02:15,520 --> 03:02:18,560
Speaker 5: A couple of resources I want to suggest the Fireweed

3256
03:02:18,600 --> 03:02:22,960
Speaker 5: Collective and the Jane Adams Collective. Adams spelled with two d's.

3257
03:02:23,040 --> 03:02:26,520
Speaker 5: There a double Dams. We will have links to both

3258
03:02:26,560 --> 03:02:28,320
Speaker 5: of them in the Showdoues. You can also put them

3259
03:02:28,320 --> 03:02:30,560
Speaker 5: into Dug dut go. And they were the first responses

3260
03:02:30,600 --> 03:02:33,279
Speaker 5: that came up for me. If you need those resources,

3261
03:02:33,600 --> 03:02:34,720
Speaker 5: reach out to those people.

3262
03:02:35,120 --> 03:02:37,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's good to see the sunrise, and it's better

3263
03:02:38,000 --> 03:02:40,320
Speaker 6: to see the sunrise with everyone you love in it.

3264
03:02:40,720 --> 03:02:43,680
Speaker 6: And yeah, that's that's a thing that you can make

3265
03:02:43,680 --> 03:02:44,640
Speaker 6: sure you do every day.

3266
03:02:46,640 --> 03:02:48,720
Speaker 4: All Right, thank you, James thanking me. We're gonna go

3267
03:02:48,720 --> 03:03:04,640
Speaker 4: and break and then come back to discuss immigration. All right,

3268
03:03:04,720 --> 03:03:09,440
Speaker 4: we're back, James. I see the amount of text you have.

3269
03:03:09,600 --> 03:03:13,600
Speaker 1: This is a very long section jail of text.

3270
03:03:13,840 --> 03:03:17,520
Speaker 4: I assume this is all good news, so let's hear it.

3271
03:03:17,760 --> 03:03:20,840
Speaker 5: All right, Garrison, I'm so glad that you have seen

3272
03:03:20,840 --> 03:03:22,879
Speaker 5: my wall of text. Because I have been looking at

3273
03:03:22,879 --> 03:03:26,320
Speaker 5: court documents for days. So much fun on pacer.

3274
03:03:26,840 --> 03:03:29,080
Speaker 4: You have been pacer posting in the group chats.

3275
03:03:29,120 --> 03:03:32,400
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, I have been big the court listener

3276
03:03:32,959 --> 03:03:35,760
Speaker 5: as well. Okay, so this is one of the more

3277
03:03:35,800 --> 03:03:37,959
Speaker 5: insane things I've seen on pacer. In a minute, I'm

3278
03:03:37,959 --> 03:03:41,080
Speaker 5: talking about the case here of mister NM, who was

3279
03:03:41,160 --> 03:03:44,680
Speaker 5: identified at some point, and we'll get an m NM.

3280
03:03:44,760 --> 03:03:44,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3281
03:03:44,959 --> 03:03:48,360
Speaker 5: It's not uncommon for migrancy in these kind of high

3282
03:03:48,360 --> 03:03:50,800
Speaker 5: profile cases to be anonymised where they can right, just

3283
03:03:50,840 --> 03:03:54,440
Speaker 5: for their safety. So NM received a final removal order

3284
03:03:54,480 --> 03:03:58,119
Speaker 5: in Nebraska in twenty twenty three, and on the seventh

3285
03:03:58,160 --> 03:04:02,039
Speaker 5: of May, DHS attempted to report to Libya. You'll remember

3286
03:04:02,080 --> 03:04:05,520
Speaker 5: that we colored that week's ed right. They did not

3287
03:04:05,959 --> 03:04:08,800
Speaker 5: manage to do that. And in this court case, we've

3288
03:04:08,840 --> 03:04:12,080
Speaker 5: seen from another detainee that one of these detainees was

3289
03:04:12,080 --> 03:04:14,440
Speaker 5: given a document to sign and told that he would

3290
03:04:14,480 --> 03:04:18,560
Speaker 5: quote be a free man in Libya after signing. Obviously

3291
03:04:18,840 --> 03:04:20,680
Speaker 5: unclear how one can be a free man when one

3292
03:04:20,720 --> 03:04:22,720
Speaker 5: is just dumped into a country, when one does speak

3293
03:04:22,720 --> 03:04:25,280
Speaker 5: the language, has no contact, there is a war.

3294
03:04:25,400 --> 03:04:27,080
Speaker 1: Doesn't make sense in any way.

3295
03:04:27,400 --> 03:04:29,920
Speaker 4: This man is not from Libya, that is correct.

3296
03:04:30,000 --> 03:04:31,120
Speaker 5: None of these people are Libyan.

3297
03:04:31,640 --> 03:04:35,400
Speaker 6: And again, whenever seven someone says the word Libya, you

3298
03:04:35,480 --> 03:04:38,160
Speaker 6: have to figure out which Libyan government you are talking about,

3299
03:04:38,200 --> 03:04:39,840
Speaker 6: because there are multiple of them, because there is a

3300
03:04:39,879 --> 03:04:41,760
Speaker 6: fucking civil war going on there right now.

3301
03:04:41,920 --> 03:04:45,320
Speaker 5: So yeah, and whenever someone talks about people being free

3302
03:04:45,320 --> 03:04:48,040
Speaker 5: in Libya, we should bear in mind that migrants are

3303
03:04:48,120 --> 03:04:52,360
Speaker 5: literally sold into slavery in Libya by both governments. Yes,

3304
03:04:52,959 --> 03:04:56,080
Speaker 5: M's English is limited. His main language is Karenne, which

3305
03:04:56,120 --> 03:04:58,439
Speaker 5: of course is a language that people speak in Cartule,

3306
03:04:58,959 --> 03:05:01,760
Speaker 5: the karen Home Lang, which part of Myanmar. On the

3307
03:05:01,840 --> 03:05:04,039
Speaker 5: nineteenth of this month, that's two days ago, I sent

3308
03:05:04,080 --> 03:05:06,800
Speaker 5: a notification to his lawyer saying that they'd read him

3309
03:05:06,800 --> 03:05:09,720
Speaker 5: a notice of removal in English that they were removing

3310
03:05:09,800 --> 03:05:13,120
Speaker 5: him to South Africa. Ten minutes later, they attempted to

3311
03:05:13,160 --> 03:05:16,080
Speaker 5: recall this message, and then later that same day they

3312
03:05:16,160 --> 03:05:18,520
Speaker 5: notified his lawyer that they'd once again read notice of

3313
03:05:18,600 --> 03:05:21,520
Speaker 5: removal to him in English that he was being removed

3314
03:05:21,560 --> 03:05:25,200
Speaker 5: to South Sudan. South Sudan the world's youngest country, if

3315
03:05:25,200 --> 03:05:27,640
Speaker 5: we're not familiar, a country that is in which conflict

3316
03:05:27,680 --> 03:05:30,360
Speaker 5: is escalating as we speak, government carrying out a barrel

3317
03:05:30,400 --> 03:05:34,520
Speaker 5: bombing campaign this very week. His council set up a

3318
03:05:34,600 --> 03:05:37,480
Speaker 5: video meeting at nine am on the twentieth, but just

3319
03:05:37,560 --> 03:05:40,119
Speaker 5: before that meeting, his council found out that he had

3320
03:05:40,160 --> 03:05:44,680
Speaker 5: already been removed. Mister m had refused to sign the

3321
03:05:44,800 --> 03:05:49,000
Speaker 5: order of removal to South Sudan. And we're seeing right

3322
03:05:49,040 --> 03:05:53,000
Speaker 5: now in a court case it's a class action. Mister

3323
03:05:53,120 --> 03:05:55,440
Speaker 5: NM is one of the members of the class right

3324
03:05:55,560 --> 03:05:58,680
Speaker 5: that there was a preliminary injunction against these people being

3325
03:05:58,720 --> 03:06:00,800
Speaker 5: removed because they are the same people who the Trump

3326
03:06:00,840 --> 03:06:04,520
Speaker 5: administration previously tried to remove to Libya, and at this

3327
03:06:04,560 --> 03:06:07,840
Speaker 5: point they tried to remove them to South Sudan. Before

3328
03:06:07,879 --> 03:06:09,879
Speaker 5: they are sent to these places, they're supposed to have

3329
03:06:09,920 --> 03:06:14,039
Speaker 5: a reasonable fear screening right. That is where someone can

3330
03:06:14,480 --> 03:06:17,360
Speaker 5: articulate if they have a reasonable fear of being removed

3331
03:06:17,400 --> 03:06:20,520
Speaker 5: to that country, right like if they will be persecuted there,

3332
03:06:20,760 --> 03:06:24,600
Speaker 5: they're likely to face torture or violence, or or be

3333
03:06:24,680 --> 03:06:27,560
Speaker 5: picked on because of who they are. Right then they're

3334
03:06:27,560 --> 03:06:30,360
Speaker 5: supposed to have a fifteen day opportunity to submit a

3335
03:06:30,400 --> 03:06:33,320
Speaker 5: motion to reopen. If the Department of Home out Security

3336
03:06:33,400 --> 03:06:35,960
Speaker 5: finds that they don't have reasonable fear. Right, So they're

3337
03:06:35,959 --> 03:06:38,320
Speaker 5: supposed to be this process where they can say I

3338
03:06:38,400 --> 03:06:40,080
Speaker 5: have a reasonable fear of going there, if I go

3339
03:06:40,160 --> 03:06:42,560
Speaker 5: there or be persecuted, and if the AHPs says nobody

3340
03:06:42,560 --> 03:06:44,720
Speaker 5: don't believe you, then they have fifteen days to submit

3341
03:06:45,640 --> 03:06:46,440
Speaker 5: more evidence.

3342
03:06:46,600 --> 03:06:49,560
Speaker 1: Right, are they being allowed to do that or no?

3343
03:06:49,560 --> 03:06:53,480
Speaker 5: No, got it? That is what this case hinges on. Right.

3344
03:06:53,560 --> 03:06:57,440
Speaker 5: So they were informed possibly hours before they were moved

3345
03:06:57,440 --> 03:06:59,760
Speaker 5: to South Sudan that they were being moved to South Sudan.

3346
03:07:00,600 --> 03:07:02,800
Speaker 5: Then they were taken to a secure facility where they

3347
03:07:02,800 --> 03:07:05,760
Speaker 5: couldn't contact their lawyers. And in at least the case

3348
03:07:05,760 --> 03:07:08,320
Speaker 5: of mister NM, he had scheduled an appointment with his

3349
03:07:08,400 --> 03:07:10,120
Speaker 5: lawyer and was deported before he could do so.

3350
03:07:10,320 --> 03:07:14,080
Speaker 4: Right, And this saven a few times before as well. Yeah,

3351
03:07:14,200 --> 03:07:16,839
Speaker 4: that's correct in the past few months.

3352
03:07:16,600 --> 03:07:20,480
Speaker 5: That's right. Yeah, And specifically, there was a priminary injunction

3353
03:07:20,560 --> 03:07:24,840
Speaker 5: against this right. So, quoting from Judge Murphy, who is

3354
03:07:25,040 --> 03:07:27,560
Speaker 5: judging the Massachusetts District Court where this is being held,

3355
03:07:27,920 --> 03:07:32,040
Speaker 5: the government's actions are unquestionably violative of this court order.

3356
03:07:32,280 --> 03:07:34,480
Speaker 5: The government said they have complied with my order because

3357
03:07:34,480 --> 03:07:36,920
Speaker 5: they didn't hear anyone yelling at their jailers that they

3358
03:07:36,959 --> 03:07:42,040
Speaker 5: are afraid to go to South Sudan. This is clearly insufficient. Yeah,

3359
03:07:42,400 --> 03:07:45,240
Speaker 5: so what he's articulating here is like this chance to

3360
03:07:45,879 --> 03:07:48,879
Speaker 5: articulate reasonable fear right. I do want to point out

3361
03:07:48,920 --> 03:07:51,600
Speaker 5: that in Biden's asylum ban that he passed in twenty

3362
03:07:51,600 --> 03:07:56,080
Speaker 5: twenty four, they move from a question of are you

3363
03:07:56,240 --> 03:07:58,360
Speaker 5: afraid to go back to your home country to what's

3364
03:07:58,400 --> 03:08:01,560
Speaker 5: called a shout test where the migrant has to articulate

3365
03:08:01,600 --> 03:08:04,920
Speaker 5: that reasonable fear unprompted right to have a chance at

3366
03:08:04,959 --> 03:08:08,160
Speaker 5: asylum in the United States. So it's again, like all

3367
03:08:08,160 --> 03:08:10,080
Speaker 5: these immigration things, I'm not saying things what the same

3368
03:08:10,160 --> 03:08:12,240
Speaker 5: under Biden, by I'm saying that there is a pathway

3369
03:08:12,280 --> 03:08:14,120
Speaker 5: to how we got here, and it goes through Biden's

3370
03:08:14,160 --> 03:08:14,880
Speaker 5: executive boarder.

3371
03:08:15,320 --> 03:08:17,520
Speaker 4: And like Miller is very willing to use anything in

3372
03:08:17,560 --> 03:08:18,240
Speaker 4: his toolbox.

3373
03:08:18,360 --> 03:08:23,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, and anything that look for decades,

3374
03:08:23,760 --> 03:08:27,360
Speaker 5: castal liberalism has built a series of tools which now

3375
03:08:27,440 --> 03:08:31,080
Speaker 5: lie in the hands of a very illiberal government right,

3376
03:08:31,120 --> 03:08:34,520
Speaker 5: and they are being used against people for whom those

3377
03:08:34,520 --> 03:08:38,760
Speaker 5: who supported castor liberalism may have some sympathy. That is

3378
03:08:38,800 --> 03:08:39,560
Speaker 5: how we got here.

3379
03:08:39,680 --> 03:08:40,680
Speaker 4: That's a good way of putting in.

3380
03:08:41,440 --> 03:08:45,200
Speaker 5: So the situation we are at right now is that

3381
03:08:45,240 --> 03:08:48,600
Speaker 5: these people were flown seemingly in a Gulf Stream jet.

3382
03:08:49,040 --> 03:08:52,280
Speaker 5: Gillian Brockhell, who's a formula Washington Post reporter who are

3383
03:08:52,280 --> 03:08:54,360
Speaker 5: going to have on the show next week, was able

3384
03:08:54,400 --> 03:08:56,680
Speaker 5: to identify this jet based on where it took off

3385
03:08:56,800 --> 03:09:01,039
Speaker 5: and its call sign. It's stopped in Shannon in Ireland. Notably,

3386
03:09:01,160 --> 03:09:04,440
Speaker 5: Shannon is an Irish civilian airport, right, It's not a

3387
03:09:04,600 --> 03:09:08,600
Speaker 5: US air Force base. This does raise some questions within Ireland,

3388
03:09:08,800 --> 03:09:12,600
Speaker 5: within Irish politics about Irish neutrality here. Right. The jet

3389
03:09:12,720 --> 03:09:16,400
Speaker 5: then flew onto Djibouti, which it is believed is where

3390
03:09:16,400 --> 03:09:20,720
Speaker 5: the migrants are right now, in court the discussion probably

3391
03:09:20,760 --> 03:09:24,560
Speaker 5: half an hour before we recorded this, DHS is claiming

3392
03:09:25,160 --> 03:09:29,040
Speaker 5: that they can do their credible fear interviews there on

3393
03:09:29,120 --> 03:09:32,040
Speaker 5: the tarmac in this plane, which people are saying is

3394
03:09:32,080 --> 03:09:34,840
Speaker 5: in Jibouti. Right, there's some suspicion that's in Djibouti. DHS

3395
03:09:34,879 --> 03:09:37,480
Speaker 5: is claiming that the location of the plane is classified,

3396
03:09:38,080 --> 03:09:41,840
Speaker 5: but this widespread belief that this plane is currently in Djibouti,

3397
03:09:41,879 --> 03:09:44,800
Speaker 5: including as I say, Julian was first and y T

3398
03:09:45,000 --> 03:09:47,560
Speaker 5: published something that didn't credit her, should have credited her.

3399
03:09:48,080 --> 03:09:50,400
Speaker 5: So to do the credible fear into you, right, they

3400
03:09:50,400 --> 03:09:51,920
Speaker 5: have to have a chance to research what will happen

3401
03:09:51,959 --> 03:09:54,080
Speaker 5: to them in South Sudan. They have to have access

3402
03:09:54,120 --> 03:09:56,880
Speaker 5: to a lawyer. Most of these people like mister NM

3403
03:09:57,160 --> 03:10:00,200
Speaker 5: will also have to have a translator. Right. Then will

3404
03:10:00,200 --> 03:10:02,960
Speaker 5: also have to have privacy, right, their credible fear may

3405
03:10:02,959 --> 03:10:04,840
Speaker 5: be something they don't want to share with everyone else

3406
03:10:04,879 --> 03:10:05,600
Speaker 5: on that plane.

3407
03:10:05,360 --> 03:10:06,840
Speaker 4: Because that could also put them in danger.

3408
03:10:07,040 --> 03:10:12,200
Speaker 1: Yes, also just like that's a baffling place to suggest

3409
03:10:12,200 --> 03:10:16,760
Speaker 1: somebody have that intimate or private of our conversation. It's

3410
03:10:16,840 --> 03:10:20,280
Speaker 1: just such a violation of their human rights.

3411
03:10:20,520 --> 03:10:24,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, many human rights being violated here. So yeah, I

3412
03:10:24,959 --> 03:10:27,600
Speaker 5: mean the US has a big base in Djibouti, right,

3413
03:10:27,640 --> 03:10:30,160
Speaker 5: so I imagine that's why they're there. Remember that they

3414
03:10:30,160 --> 03:10:32,959
Speaker 5: have that fifteen day period, So if DHS finds that

3415
03:10:33,000 --> 03:10:37,560
Speaker 5: they don't have credible fear, then they will have fifteen

3416
03:10:37,640 --> 03:10:40,920
Speaker 5: days right to bring another to reopen that. Where will

3417
03:10:40,959 --> 03:10:44,360
Speaker 5: they be housed somewhere in fucking Jibouti presumably if that's

3418
03:10:44,360 --> 03:10:47,800
Speaker 5: where they are, right, There are many many unanswered questions

3419
03:10:47,879 --> 03:10:52,000
Speaker 5: at this point. Now, last night we learned that one

3420
03:10:52,040 --> 03:10:54,959
Speaker 5: of the Burmese people, it appears that there are two

3421
03:10:54,959 --> 03:10:58,000
Speaker 5: Burmese people. We know this because the Department of Homeland

3422
03:10:58,040 --> 03:11:02,720
Speaker 5: Security today started tweeting shots of these people Jesus yeah

3423
03:11:02,760 --> 03:11:06,920
Speaker 5: and uh wow yeah, claiming that they were convicted of

3424
03:11:07,000 --> 03:11:11,320
Speaker 5: various crimes. Among them were Tubamese men and m appears

3425
03:11:11,320 --> 03:11:13,720
Speaker 5: to be Neio Miant and the other appears to be

3426
03:11:13,840 --> 03:11:16,480
Speaker 5: Cure Mea. Both of these men have been accused of

3427
03:11:16,560 --> 03:11:19,320
Speaker 5: various a big convicted, I believe of sex crimes. That's

3428
03:11:19,360 --> 03:11:21,879
Speaker 5: where they got their removal orders. Other people among the

3429
03:11:21,920 --> 03:11:24,440
Speaker 5: dozen or so people on the plane have been convicted

3430
03:11:24,440 --> 03:11:26,560
Speaker 5: of some of them like one of them is South

3431
03:11:26,560 --> 03:11:29,640
Speaker 5: Sudanese and he was convicted of removing the serial number

3432
03:11:29,640 --> 03:11:34,600
Speaker 5: from a firearm and of armed robbery, others, murder, and

3433
03:11:34,879 --> 03:11:39,040
Speaker 5: various other fairly serious crimes. Right, none of that means

3434
03:11:39,040 --> 03:11:41,280
Speaker 5: that you should just get dumped in seulth Sudan. Right,

3435
03:11:41,280 --> 03:11:43,840
Speaker 5: that's not a punishment in US, Lord, it is not

3436
03:11:44,520 --> 03:11:47,000
Speaker 5: a morally or legally acceptable thing to do.

3437
03:11:47,280 --> 03:11:51,400
Speaker 1: It's just truly baffling, honestly, Like, that's that's what they're doing,

3438
03:11:52,040 --> 03:11:52,800
Speaker 1: that's the move.

3439
03:11:53,680 --> 03:11:56,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, the move is to send Themselve Sudan, where it's

3440
03:11:56,120 --> 03:11:58,600
Speaker 5: worth noting that South Sudan's government have said it will

3441
03:11:58,600 --> 03:12:02,000
Speaker 5: probably send these people back to their home countries. Evidently

3442
03:12:02,000 --> 03:12:04,200
Speaker 5: the reason they are not being sent there is because

3443
03:12:04,320 --> 03:12:06,960
Speaker 5: they have articulated a fear of going there or they

3444
03:12:07,000 --> 03:12:10,560
Speaker 5: have protection it's called withholding of removal right, so they

3445
03:12:10,560 --> 03:12:14,520
Speaker 5: can't be removed to that country. And basically that is

3446
03:12:14,560 --> 03:12:18,440
Speaker 5: where we're at. Evdans they manage to remove apparently somebody

3447
03:12:18,480 --> 03:12:22,439
Speaker 5: to Burma today or late last night. I'm still waiting

3448
03:12:22,600 --> 03:12:28,320
Speaker 5: on my sources in mean Martin confirm that the Burmese

3449
03:12:28,360 --> 03:12:30,320
Speaker 5: hunter is as leaky as a sieve. Right, If those

3450
03:12:30,320 --> 03:12:32,200
Speaker 5: people are land that we will know about it pretty soon.

3451
03:12:32,640 --> 03:12:36,360
Speaker 5: We have pretty good sources in Burma, so if that happens,

3452
03:12:36,360 --> 03:12:39,960
Speaker 5: we will know. They also discussed another party, right, someone

3453
03:12:40,000 --> 03:12:43,720
Speaker 5: who goes by OCG a gay Guatemalon man who assertain

3454
03:12:43,720 --> 03:12:47,600
Speaker 5: credible fear of being returned while in immigration court. He

3455
03:12:47,680 --> 03:12:51,000
Speaker 5: was deported to Mexico, where he also asserted in credible fear.

3456
03:12:51,400 --> 03:12:54,360
Speaker 5: Mexico gave him a choice of remaining Mexico going to Guatemala.

3457
03:12:54,400 --> 03:12:56,640
Speaker 5: He went to Guatemala, where he is now in hiding.

3458
03:12:57,520 --> 03:13:00,680
Speaker 5: The DHS claimed he said he didn't have credible fear

3459
03:13:01,040 --> 03:13:03,199
Speaker 5: and then later reverse it, and so they didn't ask.

3460
03:13:03,760 --> 03:13:06,160
Speaker 5: So the judge is now asking how on earth they

3461
03:13:06,200 --> 03:13:09,040
Speaker 5: got this conclusion he didn't have credible fear and deported him.

3462
03:13:09,480 --> 03:13:11,760
Speaker 5: He's saying he might potentially put DHS officers on the

3463
03:13:11,800 --> 03:13:16,760
Speaker 5: stand to explain how this happened. In other immigration use

3464
03:13:17,640 --> 03:13:21,519
Speaker 5: ice just today, this is Wednesday has apparently been dismissing

3465
03:13:21,640 --> 03:13:24,400
Speaker 5: court cases against people who turn up before hearing an

3466
03:13:24,440 --> 03:13:28,000
Speaker 5: immigration court and then immediately arresting them. What the fuck?

3467
03:13:28,640 --> 03:13:32,840
Speaker 5: Right there is this fucking cross. Yeah, Like it's a

3468
03:13:32,879 --> 03:13:35,200
Speaker 5: little unclear what the move is here, but clearly they're

3469
03:13:35,200 --> 03:13:37,600
Speaker 5: trying to remove them in a more expeditious way. Right,

3470
03:13:37,600 --> 03:13:39,960
Speaker 5: they have a court case, try to remove this person,

3471
03:13:40,040 --> 03:13:40,840
Speaker 5: they're saying.

3472
03:13:40,760 --> 03:13:42,640
Speaker 4: Because the court case has, like you know, a certain

3473
03:13:42,640 --> 03:13:44,440
Speaker 4: amount of time needs to process. If they dismissed the

3474
03:13:44,480 --> 03:13:45,720
Speaker 4: court case, then they.

3475
03:13:45,640 --> 03:13:46,800
Speaker 5: Might have a right to appeal.

3476
03:13:46,959 --> 03:13:49,840
Speaker 4: And yeah, but if it's dismissed, then they can expedite

3477
03:13:49,879 --> 03:13:52,080
Speaker 4: other like non judicial removal.

3478
03:13:52,160 --> 03:13:54,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, well they can do what they're doing here. Yeah,

3479
03:13:54,879 --> 03:13:57,200
Speaker 5: they can try and get and run people out before

3480
03:13:57,200 --> 03:13:59,240
Speaker 5: they have a chance to get to their lawyer right like.

3481
03:13:59,560 --> 03:14:01,400
Speaker 5: That seems to be the underlying team of all of

3482
03:14:01,440 --> 03:14:03,480
Speaker 5: these things, which is that your due process and your

3483
03:14:03,560 --> 03:14:06,480
Speaker 5: rights under the law are too time consuming, so we're

3484
03:14:06,520 --> 03:14:08,680
Speaker 5: going to try and make and run around your rights

3485
03:14:08,959 --> 03:14:13,240
Speaker 5: by sending you to somewhere fucking horrific. That is the

3486
03:14:13,360 --> 03:14:18,520
Speaker 5: underlying theme here. Unfortunately, this removal will likely now affect

3487
03:14:18,520 --> 03:14:21,760
Speaker 5: a lot more people because a Trump administration has removed

3488
03:14:21,879 --> 03:14:26,000
Speaker 5: the twenty twenty three Temporary Protected Status for Nezuelan people.

3489
03:14:26,520 --> 03:14:30,240
Speaker 5: We talked about TPSS in my Darian series. The TPS

3490
03:14:30,280 --> 03:14:33,560
Speaker 5: provides protection from deportation to people who are already present

3491
03:14:33,600 --> 03:14:36,840
Speaker 5: in the USA when it passes. Generally, it's if a

3492
03:14:36,879 --> 03:14:39,920
Speaker 5: country has experienced war or other like instability that makes

3493
03:14:39,920 --> 03:14:43,160
Speaker 5: it dangerous. You have to apply to the TPS. They

3494
03:14:43,240 --> 03:14:45,760
Speaker 5: don't provide a pathway to permanence or citizenship, but they

3495
03:14:45,800 --> 03:14:48,480
Speaker 5: do give people work authorization, and they often have to

3496
03:14:48,520 --> 03:14:52,080
Speaker 5: be frequently renewed by the Executive Branch. You have to

3497
03:14:52,080 --> 03:14:54,440
Speaker 5: be in the US the date it's issued, so you

3498
03:14:54,520 --> 03:14:57,160
Speaker 5: can't enter after. Despite what you might have seen on

3499
03:14:58,040 --> 03:15:01,280
Speaker 5: Twitter or whatever, that's not the case. It also doesn't

3500
03:15:01,320 --> 03:15:03,560
Speaker 5: count as a legal entry, so you can't use the

3501
03:15:03,560 --> 03:15:07,040
Speaker 5: bridge to a green card. Trump stripped this protection from

3502
03:15:07,080 --> 03:15:10,119
Speaker 5: about three hundred and fifty thousand Venezuelans under the twenty

3503
03:15:10,200 --> 03:15:13,920
Speaker 5: twenty three TPS. This does not impact there are two

3504
03:15:13,959 --> 03:15:16,360
Speaker 5: different tpss for Venezuelan people. They're in a bit of

3505
03:15:16,360 --> 03:15:19,800
Speaker 5: a unique situation. The quarter of a million people covered

3506
03:15:19,800 --> 03:15:23,360
Speaker 5: by the twenty twenty one TPS are still for now

3507
03:15:23,560 --> 03:15:25,959
Speaker 5: covered by that, but it doesn't exactly bode well for them.

3508
03:15:26,040 --> 03:15:26,200
Speaker 4: Right.

3509
03:15:27,080 --> 03:15:30,160
Speaker 5: This appears to be the largest blanket removal of legal

3510
03:15:30,240 --> 03:15:32,600
Speaker 5: status from a group of people in the United States history,

3511
03:15:33,360 --> 03:15:36,039
Speaker 5: and it's a little unclear what this means for the

3512
03:15:36,080 --> 03:15:39,560
Speaker 5: three hundred and fifty thousand Venezuelan people currently residing in

3513
03:15:39,560 --> 03:15:43,480
Speaker 5: the US under TPS. Right, but it's another case of like,

3514
03:15:43,920 --> 03:15:48,000
Speaker 5: by their compliance, isolatory probably knows where they live, so

3515
03:15:48,080 --> 03:15:52,800
Speaker 5: these people, it's possible that we will see deportations of

3516
03:15:52,879 --> 03:15:56,120
Speaker 5: these people back to Venezuela again. The situation in Venezuela

3517
03:15:56,200 --> 03:15:56,680
Speaker 5: is dire.

3518
03:15:56,840 --> 03:15:59,360
Speaker 1: It's a place where just so many people too.

3519
03:16:00,240 --> 03:16:02,800
Speaker 5: And like I think again, if people haven't listened to

3520
03:16:02,840 --> 03:16:04,879
Speaker 5: my Darien series, I would like that because I got

3521
03:16:04,879 --> 03:16:07,200
Speaker 5: a lot of myself into it, But I have a

3522
03:16:07,200 --> 03:16:09,920
Speaker 5: great affection for Venezuelan migrants. I've spent a lot of

3523
03:16:09,959 --> 03:16:12,840
Speaker 5: time in Caracas when I was younger, and I've spent

3524
03:16:12,920 --> 03:16:14,920
Speaker 5: a lot of time with them in the Darien Gap,

3525
03:16:14,959 --> 03:16:17,600
Speaker 5: and then when they arrive in the United States, and yeah,

3526
03:16:17,680 --> 03:16:21,040
Speaker 5: it's really fucking heartbreaking to hear. Like when you think

3527
03:16:21,080 --> 03:16:23,800
Speaker 5: of three hundred and fifty thousand people, understand that a

3528
03:16:23,800 --> 03:16:26,959
Speaker 5: good number of those people will be little children, Yeah, right,

3529
03:16:27,360 --> 03:16:30,640
Speaker 5: people who never had any agency, People whose parents risked

3530
03:16:30,720 --> 03:16:32,960
Speaker 5: their lives to give their kids a chance at a

3531
03:16:32,959 --> 03:16:36,120
Speaker 5: better future, and that's been ripped away from them right

3532
03:16:36,160 --> 03:16:37,880
Speaker 5: now with the consent of the Supreme Court.

3533
03:16:38,600 --> 03:16:41,680
Speaker 6: Like, if you're removing three hundred, like three hundred thousand

3534
03:16:41,680 --> 03:16:43,440
Speaker 6: people from from our country, that's just straight up and

3535
03:16:43,520 --> 03:16:45,680
Speaker 6: ethnic cleansing, Like that's what that is.

3536
03:16:46,040 --> 03:16:48,200
Speaker 5: It's about a third of the Venezuelans living in the

3537
03:16:48,280 --> 03:16:51,200
Speaker 5: United States right now, right, Like, it's it's way more

3538
03:16:51,240 --> 03:16:59,160
Speaker 5: than decimating. Yeah, obviously we will see what legal recourses

3539
03:16:59,200 --> 03:17:02,120
Speaker 5: people have, will see how this goes down, But obviously

3540
03:17:02,240 --> 03:17:06,160
Speaker 5: very concerning for these people whose country is falling apart

3541
03:17:06,240 --> 03:17:10,039
Speaker 5: and being writturned. There will be terrible for them, right,

3542
03:17:10,280 --> 03:17:12,920
Speaker 5: Not only will they likely have none of their savings,

3543
03:17:13,000 --> 03:17:15,840
Speaker 5: all of the resources they poured into getting here, but

3544
03:17:16,360 --> 03:17:20,199
Speaker 5: they're also likely to face political persecution. So yeah, that's

3545
03:17:20,240 --> 03:17:23,040
Speaker 5: all the exciting and uplifting news I have from the

3546
03:17:23,040 --> 03:17:26,640
Speaker 5: immigration side of things. Hey everyone, it's James with a

3547
03:17:26,760 --> 03:17:30,600
Speaker 5: pickup Today me and Mar now is reporting that the

3548
03:17:30,720 --> 03:17:36,240
Speaker 5: United States has deported twenty people since April. To Me

3549
03:17:36,400 --> 03:17:40,160
Speaker 5: and mar most of those people, seven of them have

3550
03:17:40,280 --> 03:17:45,400
Speaker 5: been released. The remainder of those people are being held

3551
03:17:45,560 --> 03:17:50,560
Speaker 5: by Burmese military intelligence in a prison that is notorious

3552
03:17:50,560 --> 03:17:56,360
Speaker 5: for torture, sexual violence, and the general inhumane treatment of

3553
03:17:56,440 --> 03:17:59,520
Speaker 5: incarcerated people that we've become very familiar with in our

3554
03:17:59,600 --> 03:18:04,360
Speaker 5: writing about Meanma. We don't know who these people are yet. Obviously,

3555
03:18:04,400 --> 03:18:06,560
Speaker 5: this is a story that I'm looking into and I

3556
03:18:06,560 --> 03:18:08,480
Speaker 5: will continue to get back to you on. But it

3557
03:18:08,520 --> 03:18:11,600
Speaker 5: seems like somehow we have not been aware of this

3558
03:18:11,680 --> 03:18:15,279
Speaker 5: until now, but dozens of people have been deported. They're

3559
03:18:15,320 --> 03:18:17,760
Speaker 5: saying that twenty seven people in total are expected to

3560
03:18:17,800 --> 03:18:20,720
Speaker 5: be deported, and twenty already have. So obviously this is

3561
03:18:20,800 --> 03:18:22,920
Speaker 5: very disturbing news and something we'll keep reporting on.

3562
03:18:23,600 --> 03:18:23,720
Speaker 6: Well.

3563
03:18:23,760 --> 03:18:27,400
Speaker 4: Thankskeeping us updated on that. James, Yeah, we're gonna go

3564
03:18:27,640 --> 03:18:31,640
Speaker 4: on break and return to talk about the FBI, Palestine

3565
03:18:31,760 --> 03:18:49,360
Speaker 4: and some exciting new reality TV and turfs. I'm sad, okay,

3566
03:18:49,440 --> 03:18:52,560
Speaker 4: we are back. First, I want to do some quick

3567
03:18:52,600 --> 03:18:56,000
Speaker 4: updates about the FBI. A Cash Battel has announced that

3568
03:18:56,040 --> 03:18:59,040
Speaker 4: he's shutting down the FBI's DC headquarters in dj Edgar

3569
03:18:59,080 --> 03:19:02,840
Speaker 4: Hoover Building. Around fifteen hundred agents will be transferred around

3570
03:19:02,879 --> 03:19:06,680
Speaker 4: the country. In this same interview, Cash Brittel and Dan

3571
03:19:06,760 --> 03:19:11,800
Speaker 4: Bongino went on TV to say that Jeffrey Epstein died

3572
03:19:12,000 --> 03:19:16,280
Speaker 4: by suicide and of course Mega, yes, very normal to this.

3573
03:19:16,840 --> 03:19:17,760
Speaker 4: What do they have on this.

3574
03:19:19,879 --> 03:19:20,640
Speaker 1: To them?

3575
03:19:21,480 --> 03:19:24,840
Speaker 11: You said, Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide.

3576
03:19:25,600 --> 03:19:26,640
Speaker 4: People don't believe it.

3577
03:19:26,760 --> 03:19:30,720
Speaker 11: Well, I mean, listen, they have a right to their opinion.

3578
03:19:30,760 --> 03:19:33,400
Speaker 11: But as someone who has worked as a public defender,

3579
03:19:33,440 --> 03:19:35,680
Speaker 11: as a prosecutor, who's been in that prison system, who's

3580
03:19:35,720 --> 03:19:38,960
Speaker 11: been in the Metropolitan Detention Center, who's been in segregated housing,

3581
03:19:40,000 --> 03:19:41,960
Speaker 11: you know a suicide when you see one, and that's

3582
03:19:41,959 --> 03:19:46,480
Speaker 11: what that was. They killed himself again, you want me

3583
03:19:46,520 --> 03:19:48,400
Speaker 11: to get I've seen the whole file.

3584
03:19:48,560 --> 03:19:49,400
Speaker 5: He killed himself.

3585
03:19:49,879 --> 03:19:52,840
Speaker 1: I'm upset because I forgot that Dan Bongina was a

3586
03:19:52,840 --> 03:19:54,080
Speaker 1: person like me too.

3587
03:19:54,640 --> 03:19:58,000
Speaker 4: Oh, I have not forgotten. This is my beat. I

3588
03:19:58,040 --> 03:20:02,200
Speaker 4: forgot it. So yes, of course, uh, Mega is acting

3589
03:20:02,320 --> 03:20:09,240
Speaker 4: very normal about about uh the affirmation that Epstein killed himself. Quote. Okay,

3590
03:20:09,480 --> 03:20:12,280
Speaker 4: now I'm losing confidence in them both. This is not

3591
03:20:12,520 --> 03:20:14,039
Speaker 4: good at all.

3592
03:20:14,959 --> 03:20:17,320
Speaker 1: Cool. Let me read one, Let me read one. Let's

3593
03:20:17,320 --> 03:20:21,600
Speaker 1: do this. This is fun. Sad to see Cash and

3594
03:20:21,600 --> 03:20:23,760
Speaker 1: Bengino have been compromised.

3595
03:20:24,240 --> 03:20:27,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, your turn, Dahn blink twice if they threatened you

3596
03:20:27,600 --> 03:20:28,240
Speaker 6: or your family.

3597
03:20:30,120 --> 03:20:32,400
Speaker 5: Now I got to do one right, Yeah, yeah, deep

3598
03:20:32,440 --> 03:20:35,400
Speaker 5: state traitor d Ei.

3599
03:20:35,360 --> 03:20:37,200
Speaker 4: Higher Oh classic class.

3600
03:20:37,400 --> 03:20:40,280
Speaker 5: There it is, there, it is. I knew it was coming,

3601
03:20:40,560 --> 03:20:43,080
Speaker 5: as much as he likes to wear his CU hunting gear.

3602
03:20:43,320 --> 03:20:47,200
Speaker 4: But no, there's there's thousands, thousands of comments from these

3603
03:20:47,320 --> 03:20:50,879
Speaker 4: like like mega Q, people who feel feel the trade

3604
03:20:51,320 --> 03:20:54,280
Speaker 4: that people like Patel and Bungino have spent years doing

3605
03:20:54,280 --> 03:20:58,920
Speaker 4: content creation talking about this grand Epstein conspiracy that now

3606
03:20:59,040 --> 03:21:02,240
Speaker 4: now they claim isn't real or they are in fact

3607
03:21:02,360 --> 03:21:07,360
Speaker 4: covering up the real conspiracy that Donald Donald Trump's friends

3608
03:21:07,360 --> 03:21:11,800
Speaker 4: with Jeffrey Epstein's. So yeah. There's also an interview clip

3609
03:21:11,800 --> 03:21:14,039
Speaker 4: where where Trump. I was asked if he was going

3610
03:21:14,120 --> 03:21:16,080
Speaker 4: to release the whole file, and at first he said yes,

3611
03:21:16,120 --> 03:21:18,879
Speaker 4: and then he caught himself and was like, well, actually no,

3612
03:21:18,920 --> 03:21:21,200
Speaker 4: we'll probably be We'll probably be careful about releasing the

3613
03:21:21,200 --> 03:21:26,200
Speaker 4: whole file because it could compromise people, Like what kind

3614
03:21:26,240 --> 03:21:29,879
Speaker 4: of people you're talking about? Their don Anyway, we have.

3615
03:21:29,840 --> 03:21:32,800
Speaker 6: A chance of swinging the Epstein demographic, that is her

3616
03:21:32,920 --> 03:21:35,600
Speaker 6: time division to our enemies.

3617
03:21:37,080 --> 03:21:40,240
Speaker 1: The next thing of the doc is I found interesting Gerson.

3618
03:21:40,840 --> 03:21:43,879
Speaker 4: Oh, this is just one piece of uplifting news. Yeah,

3619
03:21:43,920 --> 03:21:45,920
Speaker 4: this is I'm just gonna read the headline from the

3620
03:21:46,000 --> 03:21:49,879
Speaker 4: NBA because I simply can't improve on it. No, it's perfect.

3621
03:21:51,080 --> 03:21:51,360
Speaker 2: Quote.

3622
03:21:51,760 --> 03:21:55,240
Speaker 4: Suspected serial killer shouts out Trump in last words before

3623
03:21:55,280 --> 03:22:00,400
Speaker 4: he's put to death. Keep making America great. Glenn Rogers

3624
03:22:00,400 --> 03:22:02,880
Speaker 4: once told police he had killed about seventy people. He

3625
03:22:02,959 --> 03:22:05,280
Speaker 4: was executed by lethal injection Thursday in Florida.

3626
03:22:05,400 --> 03:22:07,520
Speaker 1: That's the way that I knew it would be Florida.

3627
03:22:07,920 --> 03:22:10,840
Speaker 4: Literally seconds before he got the lethal injection, he said,

3628
03:22:11,120 --> 03:22:14,960
Speaker 4: President Trump, keep making America great. I'm ready to go.

3629
03:22:15,360 --> 03:22:19,279
Speaker 4: Last words. Wow. So that kind of shows you the current,

3630
03:22:19,360 --> 03:22:22,320
Speaker 4: like wellspring of Trump's support right now. That's really hitting

3631
03:22:22,360 --> 03:22:24,640
Speaker 4: his prime demographic of suspected serial killers.

3632
03:22:24,720 --> 03:22:27,760
Speaker 1: I just have to say that had big Florida energy.

3633
03:22:29,040 --> 03:22:29,480
Speaker 5: For real.

3634
03:22:29,920 --> 03:22:32,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's time to hear the lucid lullaby

3635
03:22:32,840 --> 03:22:33,760
Speaker 4: of tariff talk.

3636
03:22:38,120 --> 03:22:47,359
Speaker 3: Rocking jazz Bob, Rocky jazz Bot, Sorry, locking rocking jazz bomb.

3637
03:22:47,480 --> 03:22:52,560
Speaker 6: Rocking jazz Bob, you know, all right, before everything gets

3638
03:22:52,560 --> 03:22:54,920
Speaker 6: so so like, I do the most depressing segment I've

3639
03:22:54,920 --> 03:22:55,760
Speaker 6: maybe ever done on.

3640
03:22:55,760 --> 03:22:58,320
Speaker 4: Here terriffs that can't be true.

3641
03:22:58,400 --> 03:23:00,960
Speaker 6: No, not the teriff, but the next I genuinely think

3642
03:23:01,040 --> 03:23:02,640
Speaker 6: is the most impressing thing I've ever done on here,

3643
03:23:02,720 --> 03:23:05,800
Speaker 6: but the tariffs. So our negotiations with China that we're

3644
03:23:05,840 --> 03:23:07,960
Speaker 6: supposed to like solve all of the tariff problems are

3645
03:23:07,959 --> 03:23:10,560
Speaker 6: already breaking down. Both sides are like sniping at each other.

3646
03:23:11,160 --> 03:23:13,600
Speaker 6: This is not going to work. It structurally cannot work.

3647
03:23:13,680 --> 03:23:17,320
Speaker 6: That the US's demands on the negotiating table, which is again

3648
03:23:17,440 --> 03:23:19,400
Speaker 6: the political we're economic rationale behind this, is that the

3649
03:23:19,480 --> 03:23:22,120
Speaker 6: US should not have a trade deficit with China that

3650
03:23:22,480 --> 03:23:26,000
Speaker 6: can't be solved, and it's already breaking down. The talks

3651
03:23:26,000 --> 03:23:28,160
Speaker 6: are going almost certainly going to fail, and we're going

3652
03:23:28,200 --> 03:23:30,360
Speaker 6: to be right back to where we were. It's also

3653
03:23:30,400 --> 03:23:34,040
Speaker 6: worth talking about a bunch of companies have been doing

3654
03:23:34,080 --> 03:23:38,280
Speaker 6: price raises, and I think it's worth going back a

3655
03:23:38,280 --> 03:23:40,480
Speaker 6: little bit to some of some of the economic work

3656
03:23:40,480 --> 03:23:42,080
Speaker 6: we've done in this show with the people at Strange

3657
03:23:42,080 --> 03:23:44,959
Speaker 6: Matters and talking about in our previous episodes about inflation,

3658
03:23:45,040 --> 03:23:48,480
Speaker 6: about how price works, because this is really really badly

3659
03:23:48,560 --> 03:23:51,640
Speaker 6: understood by just about everyone, which is that the way

3660
03:23:51,680 --> 03:23:53,840
Speaker 6: that people think about tend to think about price is

3661
03:23:54,000 --> 03:23:56,800
Speaker 6: as like, okay, it's supply and demand.

3662
03:23:56,800 --> 03:23:58,199
Speaker 4: There's two axes they meet on a graph.

3663
03:23:58,480 --> 03:24:01,000
Speaker 6: That's not how price is set. Price is set by

3664
03:24:01,040 --> 03:24:05,039
Speaker 6: like specific people in supply chains, right, Like they're constrained

3665
03:24:05,040 --> 03:24:06,960
Speaker 6: by certain factors. And one of the biggest things, and

3666
03:24:06,959 --> 03:24:08,560
Speaker 6: one of the things, the biggest things they're constrained about,

3667
03:24:08,560 --> 03:24:10,320
Speaker 6: is that if you raise prices, people get pissed at you.

3668
03:24:10,920 --> 03:24:13,200
Speaker 6: But the way that they actually do pricing strategies is

3669
03:24:13,240 --> 03:24:14,039
Speaker 6: cost plus markup.

3670
03:24:14,080 --> 03:24:14,200
Speaker 2: Right.

3671
03:24:14,240 --> 03:24:16,880
Speaker 6: There's a cost of of of the physical good and

3672
03:24:16,920 --> 03:24:18,280
Speaker 6: then they do a markup and the markup is a

3673
03:24:18,280 --> 03:24:22,080
Speaker 6: profit margin. And the thing about tariffs, right, is that

3674
03:24:22,520 --> 03:24:25,200
Speaker 6: the way the tariffs affect supply chains is that each

3675
03:24:25,240 --> 03:24:28,240
Speaker 6: part of the supply chain now, that's movings, that's importing stuff. Right,

3676
03:24:28,760 --> 03:24:30,720
Speaker 6: each part of those things now has an additional cost

3677
03:24:30,760 --> 03:24:32,920
Speaker 6: that they have to have to put into their costless

3678
03:24:32,920 --> 03:24:34,440
Speaker 6: markup ratio.

3679
03:24:34,760 --> 03:24:35,840
Speaker 4: Now, Trump wants all.

3680
03:24:35,840 --> 03:24:38,080
Speaker 6: These companies to just fucking eat shit and eat eat

3681
03:24:38,080 --> 03:24:39,800
Speaker 6: the price of the tariffs. He's been tweeting about this

3682
03:24:40,680 --> 03:24:42,320
Speaker 6: or posting a bit and I think on truth social

3683
03:24:42,400 --> 03:24:43,440
Speaker 6: and possibly also on.

3684
03:24:43,400 --> 03:24:47,879
Speaker 4: T again, all of his truths have been re reposted

3685
03:24:47,879 --> 03:24:48,440
Speaker 4: on exos.

3686
03:24:48,520 --> 03:24:54,160
Speaker 6: Now, yeah, retruthed, but the thing is right and in theory,

3687
03:24:54,360 --> 03:24:57,400
Speaker 6: right like Walmart could just like take this right in theory,

3688
03:24:57,720 --> 03:24:59,039
Speaker 6: like like you know, like they're really some of the

3689
03:24:59,120 --> 03:25:02,000
Speaker 6: really really big company could in theory do this. They won't,

3690
03:25:02,760 --> 03:25:04,280
Speaker 6: like they a lot of any other. Thing is like

3691
03:25:04,320 --> 03:25:06,320
Speaker 6: these companies have an incentive not to raise prices because

3692
03:25:06,320 --> 03:25:09,360
Speaker 6: it pisses consumers off. And also because Trump is just

3693
03:25:09,520 --> 03:25:13,920
Speaker 6: direct like directly threatening sanctions on companies that raise prices. Mattel,

3694
03:25:14,240 --> 03:25:15,840
Speaker 6: for the people who make Barbie, said that they were

3695
03:25:15,840 --> 03:25:17,879
Speaker 6: gonna raise prices on toys, and Trump is now threatening

3696
03:25:17,920 --> 03:25:20,840
Speaker 6: them with one hundred percent sanctions or one hundred percent tariffs.

3697
03:25:21,160 --> 03:25:27,640
Speaker 4: Only three dollars yeah, so that's the government limited.

3698
03:25:27,400 --> 03:25:30,600
Speaker 6: Dolls, completely handed situation. We've gotten here. We're gonna have

3699
03:25:30,680 --> 03:25:34,039
Speaker 6: doll quotas. But you know, again again it's it's worth

3700
03:25:34,080 --> 03:25:37,400
Speaker 6: mentioning right that, like in theory, for a little bit

3701
03:25:37,440 --> 03:25:39,640
Speaker 6: of time, some of these companies can sort of eat

3702
03:25:39,640 --> 03:25:41,160
Speaker 6: this or they can fuck with their supply chains. So

3703
03:25:41,200 --> 03:25:44,000
Speaker 6: they companies have been publicly talking about this. The problem

3704
03:25:44,320 --> 03:25:47,360
Speaker 6: is the suppliers, because the the the distributors tend to

3705
03:25:47,400 --> 03:25:51,359
Speaker 6: have pretty high margins, right, like your Walgreens, like Amazon

3706
03:25:51,360 --> 03:25:53,600
Speaker 6: a sub except like their margins are okay, and like

3707
03:25:53,680 --> 03:25:56,280
Speaker 6: Amazon makes most of us money from government computing contracts anyways,

3708
03:25:56,600 --> 03:26:00,640
Speaker 6: so it's not as catastrophic. But the supply years operate

3709
03:26:00,760 --> 03:26:03,360
Speaker 6: on very low margins. The shipping companies, everything else along

3710
03:26:03,400 --> 03:26:05,720
Speaker 6: the supply chain operates on really really low margins, right,

3711
03:26:06,080 --> 03:26:09,359
Speaker 6: And those people have to raise their price because otherwise

3712
03:26:09,400 --> 03:26:11,560
Speaker 6: they are just going to die. And when they raise

3713
03:26:11,640 --> 03:26:14,800
Speaker 6: their price right in, that's an increase to the next

3714
03:26:14,800 --> 03:26:17,520
Speaker 6: company's costless markup, which increases the next company's costless market,

3715
03:26:17,600 --> 03:26:19,920
Speaker 6: which increases the next companies. And we're starting to see

3716
03:26:19,959 --> 03:26:21,800
Speaker 6: this ripple to the supply chain. Things are disappearing from

3717
03:26:21,800 --> 03:26:24,080
Speaker 6: grocery stores. They're going to continue disappearing from grocery stores.

3718
03:26:24,560 --> 03:26:27,280
Speaker 6: And as as this goes on, and as presumably the

3719
03:26:27,360 --> 03:26:29,800
Speaker 6: teriffs from China come back into effect, when these negotiations

3720
03:26:29,840 --> 03:26:32,840
Speaker 6: break down and the next round of tariffs goes into

3721
03:26:32,879 --> 03:26:35,680
Speaker 6: effect and deliberation day tariffs come off their ninety day

3722
03:26:35,680 --> 03:26:38,160
Speaker 6: pause and go to effect, this is all gonna get worse.

3723
03:26:38,720 --> 03:26:44,039
Speaker 6: This has been tariff talk lovely U. This unfortunately was

3724
03:26:44,080 --> 03:26:45,279
Speaker 6: the fun part of the episode.

3725
03:26:46,600 --> 03:26:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's gonna get worse free two one.

3726
03:26:51,160 --> 03:26:52,879
Speaker 6: Okay, So when I said this might be the bleak

3727
03:26:52,879 --> 03:26:54,920
Speaker 6: at segment I've ever done on this show, we need

3728
03:26:54,959 --> 03:26:58,200
Speaker 6: to do an update on Palestine because things have gotten

3729
03:26:58,320 --> 03:27:02,320
Speaker 6: ye Like, when I was kind of opening this episode,

3730
03:27:02,320 --> 03:27:04,199
Speaker 6: I thought it was going to mostly be about Trump's

3731
03:27:04,240 --> 03:27:06,959
Speaker 6: plan to deport the entire popula to its like deport

3732
03:27:07,000 --> 03:27:10,120
Speaker 6: most of the polation of Palestine to Libya. That's not

3733
03:27:10,240 --> 03:27:12,959
Speaker 6: even the immediate crisis. The immediate crisis is that and

3734
03:27:13,320 --> 03:27:15,360
Speaker 6: that that's not even sure what I'm saying the immediate crisis.

3735
03:27:15,440 --> 03:27:17,360
Speaker 6: Last week, I thought the crisis was going to be

3736
03:27:17,400 --> 03:27:19,280
Speaker 6: the eleven week blucket of Gaza and the fact that

3737
03:27:19,320 --> 03:27:23,000
Speaker 6: everyone is about to starve. Yeah, and so the actual

3738
03:27:23,080 --> 03:27:26,720
Speaker 6: specific thing that we're getting to right now is Israel

3739
03:27:27,160 --> 03:27:30,320
Speaker 6: it is attempting to evacuate. That's their wording. What they're

3740
03:27:30,320 --> 03:27:33,280
Speaker 6: actually doing is ethnically cleansing basically the entire population of

3741
03:27:33,400 --> 03:27:37,000
Speaker 6: Conunis by just forcing everyone out of the city. Right

3742
03:27:37,160 --> 03:27:39,760
Speaker 6: The United Nations has said that nearly one hundred thousand

3743
03:27:39,840 --> 03:27:42,200
Speaker 6: Palestinians have been displaced in Gaza in the last four

3744
03:27:42,280 --> 03:27:46,080
Speaker 6: days as Israel has been expanding its its ground invasion

3745
03:27:46,080 --> 03:27:49,000
Speaker 6: to the Gaza strip. This has been combined with the

3746
03:27:49,080 --> 03:27:51,440
Speaker 6: eleven week long blockade of Gaza. I think by the

3747
03:27:51,520 --> 03:27:54,480
Speaker 6: end of this week, on the week twelve, this has

3748
03:27:54,600 --> 03:27:57,360
Speaker 6: set off an enormous risk of famine. I'm just going

3749
03:27:57,400 --> 03:28:00,560
Speaker 6: to read this from Al Jazeira. Quote some sef days

3750
03:28:00,560 --> 03:28:04,560
Speaker 6: after the Israeli military halted the entry of food, water, medicine,

3751
03:28:04,600 --> 03:28:07,400
Speaker 6: and all other life saving supplies into Gaza, the report said.

3752
03:28:07,440 --> 03:28:10,320
Speaker 6: This is a report from a UN a UN back

3753
03:28:10,360 --> 03:28:13,760
Speaker 6: set of food security group of analysts. The report said,

3754
03:28:13,840 --> 03:28:17,840
Speaker 6: quote goods indispensable for people's survivals survival are either depleted

3755
03:28:17,920 --> 03:28:19,720
Speaker 6: or expected to run out in the coming weeks.

3756
03:28:20,320 --> 03:28:20,800
Speaker 4: Quote.

3757
03:28:20,879 --> 03:28:24,960
Speaker 6: The entire population is facing high levels of acute food insecurity,

3758
03:28:25,320 --> 03:28:28,920
Speaker 6: with half a million people one in five facing starvation.

3759
03:28:29,080 --> 03:28:29,520
Speaker 3: It said.

3760
03:28:30,000 --> 03:28:35,320
Speaker 6: Approximately ninety three percent of Gaza's population is experiencing acute

3761
03:28:35,320 --> 03:28:38,720
Speaker 6: food shortages. It added. The report also said that like

3762
03:28:38,760 --> 03:28:41,160
Speaker 6: one in five people could starve between now and November.

3763
03:28:42,040 --> 03:28:45,360
Speaker 6: People have already started starving to death. Israel has been

3764
03:28:45,360 --> 03:28:49,520
Speaker 6: blocking AID from getting through. They symbolically allowed a small

3765
03:28:49,600 --> 03:28:52,720
Speaker 6: number of trucks in, but AID groups on the ground

3766
03:28:53,040 --> 03:28:55,000
Speaker 6: and I want to emphasize that this reporting is coming

3767
03:28:55,040 --> 03:28:57,680
Speaker 6: directly from the Times of Israel. If you want to

3768
03:28:57,720 --> 03:29:00,320
Speaker 6: understand how bad the situation is, the Times of Isael

3769
03:29:00,440 --> 03:29:03,800
Speaker 6: is reporting that a groups from the ground say that

3770
03:29:03,840 --> 03:29:05,240
Speaker 6: none of the ilia's gotten through and none of it

3771
03:29:05,240 --> 03:29:09,360
Speaker 6: has been attributed. This is I don't know how to

3772
03:29:09,440 --> 03:29:13,720
Speaker 6: convey how bad it is. Indescribable. Numbers of people are

3773
03:29:14,040 --> 03:29:15,440
Speaker 6: on the verge of starv and go death in the

3774
03:29:15,480 --> 03:29:19,600
Speaker 6: Israelis are simply not letting any food arrive. They keep

3775
03:29:19,600 --> 03:29:21,360
Speaker 6: talking about how they're going to let food arrive because

3776
03:29:21,400 --> 03:29:24,440
Speaker 6: this is actually, this is the first thing I've seen

3777
03:29:24,800 --> 03:29:29,000
Speaker 6: them do that's actually seriously gotten. I mean not even seriously,

3778
03:29:29,000 --> 03:29:31,560
Speaker 6: but it's like gotten A lot of their Western allies

3779
03:29:31,600 --> 03:29:33,760
Speaker 6: pissed at them because they're just very obviously trying to

3780
03:29:33,800 --> 03:29:37,120
Speaker 6: exterminate entire population by starving them the death. And this

3781
03:29:37,160 --> 03:29:40,959
Speaker 6: has caused the UK, Canada, and France to issue a

3782
03:29:41,040 --> 03:29:43,640
Speaker 6: joint statement coming out against the Israeli policy and telling

3783
03:29:43,680 --> 03:29:46,200
Speaker 6: them to fucking stop and let food through so these

3784
03:29:46,240 --> 03:29:50,600
Speaker 6: people don't starve. The UK is talking about suspending free

3785
03:29:50,600 --> 03:29:53,560
Speaker 6: trade agreements with Israel, they're talking about like sanctions at

3786
03:29:53,560 --> 03:29:56,920
Speaker 6: West Bank settlers. The whole group has threatened that they're

3787
03:29:56,959 --> 03:30:01,520
Speaker 6: going to take more actions unless the Israelis let food in. Now,

3788
03:30:01,600 --> 03:30:04,520
Speaker 6: the Israelis, because of the Israelis shot at a bunch

3789
03:30:04,600 --> 03:30:07,680
Speaker 6: of diplomats who were visiting a refugee camp in Janine.

3790
03:30:07,720 --> 03:30:08,879
Speaker 4: This was like a few days ago.

3791
03:30:09,120 --> 03:30:11,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's like a few days ago. Yeah, yeah, And

3792
03:30:11,360 --> 03:30:15,280
Speaker 6: so that's that's not been like making anyone less angry

3793
03:30:15,360 --> 03:30:17,880
Speaker 6: at them. It's genuinely remarkable to we've reached a place

3794
03:30:17,879 --> 03:30:21,879
Speaker 6: where like the UK, Canada in France, who are all

3795
03:30:21,920 --> 03:30:25,680
Speaker 6: major weapons suppliers to Israel, are like talking about sanctions,

3796
03:30:26,560 --> 03:30:28,440
Speaker 6: like even targeted actions, like yeah, you know, and like

3797
03:30:28,480 --> 03:30:30,520
Speaker 6: the like the UN's like Human Rights Commission was like well,

3798
03:30:30,520 --> 03:30:32,119
Speaker 6: This is bullshit. You can't juste targeted sanctions.

3799
03:30:32,120 --> 03:30:33,200
Speaker 4: It is the entire government doing this.

3800
03:30:33,280 --> 03:30:35,880
Speaker 6: But like you know, the fact that they're doing something

3801
03:30:36,680 --> 03:30:41,400
Speaker 6: is an indicator of just how apocalyptically bad the situation

3802
03:30:41,520 --> 03:30:42,000
Speaker 6: is right now.

3803
03:30:42,600 --> 03:30:43,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to.

3804
03:30:43,360 --> 03:30:47,920
Speaker 6: Read this quote from the Guardian from just Perennial, most

3805
03:30:47,959 --> 03:30:50,640
Speaker 6: fascist guy in the Israeli government.

3806
03:30:50,959 --> 03:30:51,920
Speaker 5: That's he's saying something.

3807
03:30:52,480 --> 03:30:56,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, who's their fucking finance minister who said quote, Now,

3808
03:30:56,879 --> 03:31:00,480
Speaker 6: we conquer, cleanse and stay until Hamas is stroy he

3809
03:31:00,520 --> 03:31:03,160
Speaker 6: told him news conference. Along the way, what remains of

3810
03:31:03,240 --> 03:31:04,920
Speaker 6: the strip is also being wiped.

3811
03:31:04,600 --> 03:31:08,039
Speaker 4: Out, plants conquered, the normal things.

3812
03:31:08,080 --> 03:31:10,879
Speaker 6: To say, the extent to which they are simply doing

3813
03:31:10,959 --> 03:31:14,039
Speaker 6: a genocide here has reached a point where even a

3814
03:31:14,040 --> 03:31:17,280
Speaker 6: bunch of Israel's closest allies are going, what the fuck?

3815
03:31:18,080 --> 03:31:18,520
Speaker 4: I don't know.

3816
03:31:18,760 --> 03:31:23,560
Speaker 6: I really hope that people are able to force their

3817
03:31:23,600 --> 03:31:25,800
Speaker 6: governments to actually fucking do something about this, because if

3818
03:31:25,840 --> 03:31:29,480
Speaker 6: they don't, it's going to continue to get really bad. Yeah,

3819
03:31:29,480 --> 03:31:32,520
Speaker 6: And I mean I guess right now, that's mostly like

3820
03:31:32,560 --> 03:31:34,720
Speaker 6: if if you're if you're in like the UK, Canada

3821
03:31:34,800 --> 03:31:37,360
Speaker 6: or France, and you think you can apply more pressure

3822
03:31:37,400 --> 03:31:39,160
Speaker 6: on your government, like go for.

3823
03:31:39,200 --> 03:31:40,960
Speaker 4: It, do do it? Do that.

3824
03:31:41,720 --> 03:31:43,119
Speaker 6: Like, I don't know, I don't know to what extent

3825
03:31:43,120 --> 03:31:45,600
Speaker 6: pressure can even be mounted on the Trump administration.

3826
03:31:45,200 --> 03:31:48,040
Speaker 4: But it's yeah, I think that's pretty much a dead end,

3827
03:31:48,600 --> 03:31:52,360
Speaker 4: right Yeah, Like but seeing these countries align outside of

3828
03:31:52,400 --> 03:31:57,360
Speaker 4: any US influence to I potentially recognize the Palestinian state,

3829
03:31:57,400 --> 03:32:00,840
Speaker 4: according to Lemonde, right, like is significant.

3830
03:32:00,840 --> 03:32:04,959
Speaker 5: And yeah, people in those countries should absolutely like stay

3831
03:32:04,959 --> 03:32:05,560
Speaker 5: in the streets.

3832
03:32:05,640 --> 03:32:07,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, because like like and this is this is the

3833
03:32:07,720 --> 03:32:10,040
Speaker 6: thing here, right, Like these countries the stuff that there's

3834
03:32:10,360 --> 03:32:12,000
Speaker 6: stuff are threatened you is not enough to really make

3835
03:32:12,040 --> 03:32:14,360
Speaker 6: a difference here, but like if they're willing to do this,

3836
03:32:14,440 --> 03:32:15,280
Speaker 6: they can be pushed further.

3837
03:32:15,400 --> 03:32:15,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3838
03:32:15,720 --> 03:32:17,640
Speaker 4: So yeah, you have to get your foot in the door.

3839
03:32:17,760 --> 03:32:18,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3840
03:32:18,040 --> 03:32:22,360
Speaker 4: And Carney has also seemed susceptible to this, Yeah, as

3841
03:32:22,400 --> 03:32:26,000
Speaker 4: there has been a block on armsteels to Israel for

3842
03:32:26,000 --> 03:32:27,320
Speaker 4: the past few months in Canada.

3843
03:32:27,360 --> 03:32:27,520
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3844
03:32:27,760 --> 03:32:32,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're going to close with another story of like

3845
03:32:32,720 --> 03:32:36,560
Speaker 4: anti humanity, but just a slightly different flavor. And I

3846
03:32:36,959 --> 03:32:39,080
Speaker 4: know this this does the show does often just end

3847
03:32:39,120 --> 03:32:41,000
Speaker 4: up feeling like a bad news round up, and that

3848
03:32:41,080 --> 03:32:42,440
Speaker 4: is because there's a lot of bad news.

3849
03:32:42,480 --> 03:32:43,720
Speaker 5: I have good news for the end.

3850
03:32:43,720 --> 03:32:46,160
Speaker 4: Actually, that's a good thing. We'll have some good news, yeah,

3851
03:32:46,240 --> 03:32:48,400
Speaker 4: as a treat. And part of the good news here

3852
03:32:48,440 --> 03:32:50,640
Speaker 4: is that this probably will not end up happening, but

3853
03:32:50,680 --> 03:32:54,280
Speaker 4: it's still useful insight into the minds of these ghouls.

3854
03:32:55,160 --> 03:32:59,760
Speaker 4: And I've long advocated that reality TV is basically inherently Satanic.

3855
03:33:00,040 --> 03:33:03,360
Speaker 4: I think it's a spiritual darkness. This is offensive to Satanists.

3856
03:33:03,840 --> 03:33:04,720
Speaker 6: It is a.

3857
03:33:04,720 --> 03:33:07,760
Speaker 4: Spiritual darkness that has played the United States for far

3858
03:33:07,800 --> 03:33:10,240
Speaker 4: too long. I think it's ushered in a degree of

3859
03:33:10,280 --> 03:33:15,959
Speaker 4: evil that is nearly unfathomable. And the current administration is

3860
03:33:16,040 --> 03:33:20,120
Speaker 4: essentially a reality TV administration on a very clear and

3861
03:33:20,120 --> 03:33:20,800
Speaker 4: obvious level.

3862
03:33:21,200 --> 03:33:23,959
Speaker 1: Yes, but did I enjoy watching the Secret Lives of

3863
03:33:24,000 --> 03:33:24,880
Speaker 1: Mormon Wives?

3864
03:33:25,320 --> 03:33:25,600
Speaker 5: Yes?

3865
03:33:26,160 --> 03:33:28,680
Speaker 4: I did. I think watching it stuff is actually a

3866
03:33:28,760 --> 03:33:32,279
Speaker 4: personal moral failure. I think you're channeling darkness into your soul.

3867
03:33:32,400 --> 03:33:33,119
Speaker 1: And love it it.

3868
03:33:33,480 --> 03:33:36,720
Speaker 4: Last week, multiple outlets reported that the Department of Homeland

3869
03:33:36,760 --> 03:33:40,840
Speaker 4: Security was considering participating in a reality TV show where

3870
03:33:40,879 --> 03:33:46,360
Speaker 4: immigrants compete against each other to gain US citizenship. The

3871
03:33:46,400 --> 03:33:50,680
Speaker 4: proposed series would be called The American This nightmare has

3872
03:33:50,680 --> 03:33:55,080
Speaker 4: been dreamed up by Duck Dynasty producer Rob Warsof, and

3873
03:33:55,120 --> 03:33:58,080
Speaker 4: apparently he's been trying to make this since Obama's second term,

3874
03:33:58,600 --> 03:34:01,880
Speaker 4: but only now has made progress on getting the necessary

3875
03:34:01,879 --> 03:34:05,520
Speaker 4: backing from the DHS. After sending Trump's DHS a thirty

3876
03:34:05,640 --> 03:34:09,880
Speaker 4: five page pitch, Warsof wants it to be quote unquote

3877
03:34:10,240 --> 03:34:15,880
Speaker 4: the biggest loser for immigration, which again, reality TV is

3878
03:34:15,920 --> 03:34:20,560
Speaker 4: inherently evil. That's fucking insane. It should not be tolerated

3879
03:34:20,560 --> 03:34:24,320
Speaker 4: on any aspect of human society. No, the Wall Street

3880
03:34:24,400 --> 03:34:29,879
Speaker 4: Journal header reads, quote, this isn't the Hunger Games for immigrants,

3881
03:34:30,080 --> 03:34:33,480
Speaker 4: says the producer behind the pitch. If you have to

3882
03:34:33,600 --> 03:34:38,279
Speaker 4: say this isn't the Hunger Games for immigrants, that means

3883
03:34:38,400 --> 03:34:40,879
Speaker 4: this is the Hunger Games for immigrants. Getting a lot

3884
03:34:40,879 --> 03:34:44,080
Speaker 4: of questions about my this isn't the Hunger Games for

3885
03:34:44,200 --> 03:34:47,760
Speaker 4: Immigrants shirt already answered by the shirt to quote the

3886
03:34:47,800 --> 03:34:52,120
Speaker 4: Wall Street Journal quote. DHS spokeswoman Tricia McLaughlin said that

3887
03:34:52,320 --> 03:34:55,119
Speaker 4: she had spoken to the producer of the proposed television

3888
03:34:55,240 --> 03:34:59,439
Speaker 4: reality show and that consideration of the idea was ongoing.

3889
03:35:00,080 --> 03:35:03,280
Speaker 4: It is quote in the very beginning stages of that

3890
03:35:03,400 --> 03:35:07,720
Speaker 4: vetting process, she said, adding that quote each proposal undergoes

3891
03:35:07,800 --> 03:35:12,560
Speaker 4: a thorough vetting process prior to denial or approval unquote.

3892
03:35:12,640 --> 03:35:15,040
Speaker 4: McLoughlin was also quoted in The Daily Mail as saying

3893
03:35:15,080 --> 03:35:19,040
Speaker 4: she thought the television show was quote unquote a good idea.

3894
03:35:19,840 --> 03:35:20,720
Speaker 5: Jesus, Jesus.

3895
03:35:21,040 --> 03:35:24,520
Speaker 4: The pitch details that the immigrant contestants would board a

3896
03:35:24,600 --> 03:35:28,160
Speaker 4: train called the American and ride across the country to

3897
03:35:28,200 --> 03:35:30,960
Speaker 4: meet quote unquote interesting Americans and learn about the local

3898
03:35:31,000 --> 03:35:35,279
Speaker 4: history and culture while competing in region specific quote unquote

3899
03:35:35,320 --> 03:35:40,119
Speaker 4: heritage challenges to prove they are the most American. Such

3900
03:35:40,160 --> 03:35:44,240
Speaker 4: cultural contests include balancing on logs in Wisconsin, building a

3901
03:35:44,360 --> 03:35:47,320
Speaker 4: rocket at the Florida NASA headquarters, assembling a model t

3902
03:35:47,480 --> 03:35:50,800
Speaker 4: Ford in Detroit, and collecting gold in a San Francisco

3903
03:35:50,920 --> 03:35:55,879
Speaker 4: mind shaft. Prizes would be quote unquote iconically American, like

3904
03:35:56,000 --> 03:35:59,760
Speaker 4: one million American Airlines points, a ten thousand dollars Starbucks

3905
03:35:59,800 --> 03:36:03,960
Speaker 4: give card, or a lifetime supply of seventy six gas.

3906
03:36:04,440 --> 03:36:06,800
Speaker 4: Immigrants would be split into teams that compete head to

3907
03:36:06,840 --> 03:36:10,760
Speaker 4: head across one hour episodes, ending with an elimination challenge,

3908
03:36:10,920 --> 03:36:14,440
Speaker 4: followed by a town hall and a final vote to

3909
03:36:14,560 --> 03:36:17,400
Speaker 4: quote the producer quote along the way, we will be

3910
03:36:17,520 --> 03:36:20,680
Speaker 4: reminded what it means to be American through the eyes

3911
03:36:20,879 --> 03:36:23,520
Speaker 4: of people who wanted most.

3912
03:36:25,440 --> 03:36:28,760
Speaker 5: I feel like even this will it will humanize migration

3913
03:36:28,879 --> 03:36:30,879
Speaker 5: to the United States too much for them, and like

3914
03:36:30,920 --> 03:36:35,879
Speaker 5: if that they will be afraid of that, like of

3915
03:36:35,920 --> 03:36:38,360
Speaker 5: these people articulating their desire to be here and what

3916
03:36:38,400 --> 03:36:41,680
Speaker 5: it means to them, And I feel like that that

3917
03:36:41,720 --> 03:36:44,119
Speaker 5: doesn't end well for the administration, that they this might.

3918
03:36:44,040 --> 03:36:45,600
Speaker 4: Be too liberal for the Trump administration.

3919
03:36:46,600 --> 03:36:48,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, it could be too I'm not even joking.

3920
03:36:49,920 --> 03:36:51,920
Speaker 6: This is a concept just should be the death knell

3921
03:36:52,000 --> 03:36:55,040
Speaker 6: for the idea of America. Like, oh, yeah, if America

3922
03:36:55,080 --> 03:36:57,160
Speaker 6: has an experiment, we tried it.

3923
03:36:57,160 --> 03:36:59,760
Speaker 4: It failed. This is the most America thing I've ever heard, Like.

3924
03:36:59,720 --> 03:37:02,720
Speaker 6: It's yeah, as an experiment, the American Project was a

3925
03:37:02,720 --> 03:37:05,040
Speaker 6: fucking disaster, and we need to it needs to stop

3926
03:37:05,400 --> 03:37:09,280
Speaker 6: because this is what it's done. No more, No more

3927
03:37:09,280 --> 03:37:14,840
Speaker 6: American Project. The Hitch has pre vetted contestants. First arriving

3928
03:37:14,879 --> 03:37:18,879
Speaker 6: at Ellis Island a board a boat called the Citizenship,

3929
03:37:19,720 --> 03:37:23,680
Speaker 6: They are greeted by the show's host quote a famous

3930
03:37:23,760 --> 03:37:27,560
Speaker 6: naturalized American who was also born in another country unquote.

3931
03:37:27,800 --> 03:37:33,240
Speaker 6: The pitt recommends Sophia Vrighera or Ryan Reynolds. Upon arriving,

3932
03:37:33,480 --> 03:37:37,000
Speaker 6: the host would give each of them a personalized baseball

3933
03:37:37,080 --> 03:37:39,200
Speaker 6: glove America's past time.

3934
03:37:39,800 --> 03:37:43,080
Speaker 1: There's no way Sophia Brigata or Ryan Reynolds would ever

3935
03:37:43,240 --> 03:37:45,800
Speaker 1: fucking do a show like this. That's batshit.

3936
03:37:46,120 --> 03:37:49,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I fucking hope so to quote the producer's pitch.

3937
03:37:49,720 --> 03:37:54,680
Speaker 4: Quote will join in the laughter, tears, frustration, and joy

3938
03:37:54,720 --> 03:37:58,320
Speaker 4: hearing their backstories as we are reminded how amazing it

3939
03:37:58,400 --> 03:38:01,840
Speaker 4: is to be American through the eyes of twelve wonderful

3940
03:38:01,879 --> 03:38:05,560
Speaker 4: people who want nothing more than to have what we have.

3941
03:38:06,560 --> 03:38:06,879
Speaker 7: Quote.

3942
03:38:07,879 --> 03:38:10,120
Speaker 4: This is one of the most evil things I've ever

3943
03:38:10,160 --> 03:38:14,400
Speaker 4: I've ever heard of. Yeah, the live finale would have

3944
03:38:14,440 --> 03:38:17,280
Speaker 4: the winner getting sworn in on the steps of the

3945
03:38:17,400 --> 03:38:21,920
Speaker 4: US Capital by a quote top American politician or judge

3946
03:38:22,320 --> 03:38:26,720
Speaker 4: with F sixteen's flying overhead. Quote. There won't be a

3947
03:38:27,920 --> 03:38:32,080
Speaker 4: fuck me sorry, there won't be a dry eye in

3948
03:38:32,160 --> 03:38:33,760
Speaker 4: the house unquote.

3949
03:38:34,160 --> 03:38:39,560
Speaker 5: There have actually been like high spectacle single individual awards

3950
03:38:39,600 --> 03:38:44,920
Speaker 5: of citizenship before I'm thinking For example, Hermann Bodger was

3951
03:38:45,200 --> 03:38:49,240
Speaker 5: a He's often known as like the one man army

3952
03:38:49,280 --> 03:38:53,560
Speaker 5: of BOONA John Butcher. He was I believe, living as

3953
03:38:53,560 --> 03:38:55,840
Speaker 5: an undocumented person in the United States when he joined

3954
03:38:55,840 --> 03:38:58,960
Speaker 5: the Abraham Lincoln Brigade volunteered to fight in the Spanish

3955
03:38:58,959 --> 03:39:03,320
Speaker 5: Civil War, where he was an officer. He then joined

3956
03:39:03,360 --> 03:39:07,879
Speaker 5: the United States military and fort again in World War II.

3957
03:39:08,600 --> 03:39:11,000
Speaker 5: During the Battle of Bune, he personally led a charge

3958
03:39:11,000 --> 03:39:15,360
Speaker 5: against several Japanese pillboxes, which he eliminated with grenades. He

3959
03:39:15,520 --> 03:39:18,879
Speaker 5: then had his ear drum perforated, and I believe he

3960
03:39:19,000 --> 03:39:22,039
Speaker 5: was shot in the arm. He was awarded, I think

3961
03:39:22,040 --> 03:39:25,040
Speaker 5: he wasn't ordered the Medal of Honor. He was recognized

3962
03:39:25,040 --> 03:39:27,600
Speaker 5: for his bravery. Congress pass and act to make him

3963
03:39:27,600 --> 03:39:30,280
Speaker 5: a citizen, and he declined to attend the ceremony because

3964
03:39:30,280 --> 03:39:33,920
Speaker 5: he wanted to get back to the front lines. That rules, Yeah,

3965
03:39:34,080 --> 03:39:34,879
Speaker 5: a bit of a legend.

3966
03:39:35,240 --> 03:39:39,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, a little bit cooler than the live grand finale

3967
03:39:39,640 --> 03:39:44,000
Speaker 4: of the American The pitch clarified that the losers would

3968
03:39:44,080 --> 03:39:47,959
Speaker 4: not be immediately deported and that the contestants would have

3969
03:39:48,280 --> 03:39:51,640
Speaker 4: a leg up in applying for citizenship the more traditional

3970
03:39:51,680 --> 03:39:55,440
Speaker 4: way based on being pre vetted for this show. So

3971
03:39:55,480 --> 03:39:57,880
Speaker 4: it's good that it's good that he had to clarify

3972
03:39:58,000 --> 03:40:01,680
Speaker 4: that they would not be immediately deported upon on getting eliminated.

3973
03:40:02,280 --> 03:40:03,520
Speaker 4: That's that's a good sign.

3974
03:40:03,959 --> 03:40:05,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, another thing that you should always have to

3975
03:40:05,600 --> 03:40:06,920
Speaker 5: craifind a TV page.

3976
03:40:07,080 --> 03:40:10,760
Speaker 4: At a Tuesday congressional hearing, Christineome denied having knowledge of

3977
03:40:10,800 --> 03:40:14,840
Speaker 4: the reality TV show despite reporting to the contrary, while

3978
03:40:14,920 --> 03:40:19,560
Speaker 4: also defining hebeas corpus in this hearing as a quote

3979
03:40:19,879 --> 03:40:22,800
Speaker 4: constitutional right that the president has to be able to

3980
03:40:22,800 --> 03:40:27,720
Speaker 4: remove people from this country unquote. So there you go. Yeah,

3981
03:40:27,800 --> 03:40:31,560
Speaker 4: that's not what that means, Christineome is a disaster that

3982
03:40:31,680 --> 03:40:34,360
Speaker 4: is kind of the opposite of what Abe's corpus is.

3983
03:40:35,280 --> 03:40:39,200
Speaker 4: And there is there is substantial reporting showing that DHS

3984
03:40:39,200 --> 03:40:41,520
Speaker 4: staff are looking at this pitch. It might not go

3985
03:40:41,640 --> 03:40:43,840
Speaker 4: through now based on all this backlash, but they were

3986
03:40:43,840 --> 03:40:49,680
Speaker 4: looking through the pitch, including possibly Corey Lewandowski. But yeah,

3987
03:40:50,040 --> 03:40:53,960
Speaker 4: that is that is the Reality TV news. James, Do

3988
03:40:54,000 --> 03:40:56,920
Speaker 4: you have anything anything to end on here.

3989
03:40:56,840 --> 03:40:59,000
Speaker 1: Please, James, please?

3990
03:40:59,080 --> 03:41:01,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know something a little bit nice. So for

3991
03:41:01,879 --> 03:41:05,520
Speaker 5: those of you who like me, enjoy a strawberry ice.

3992
03:41:05,600 --> 03:41:11,760
Speaker 5: Agents arrived at the West Coast Berry Farms facility in Oxnard, California,

3993
03:41:12,280 --> 03:41:15,519
Speaker 5: earlier this month, where they were met by a gatekeeper

3994
03:41:15,680 --> 03:41:18,440
Speaker 5: who demanded a warrant and refused to let them enter

3995
03:41:18,480 --> 03:41:22,480
Speaker 5: the facility without one and eventually managed to turn them away.

3996
03:41:22,840 --> 03:41:27,119
Speaker 5: So this is a rare dub I guess. Clearly, as

3997
03:41:27,160 --> 03:41:29,760
Speaker 5: we enter the time of year when things need to

3998
03:41:29,760 --> 03:41:33,240
Speaker 5: be picked in the fields, this will be a place

3999
03:41:33,680 --> 03:41:38,959
Speaker 5: where ICE sees the opportunity to conduct its enforcement operations.

4000
03:41:39,120 --> 03:41:43,360
Speaker 5: And like it is genuinely positive to see that this company,

4001
03:41:43,400 --> 03:41:46,800
Speaker 5: I guess, critical support to this company that obviously underpays

4002
03:41:46,800 --> 03:41:50,160
Speaker 5: and takes advantage of migrant labor that they have provided them,

4003
03:41:50,200 --> 03:41:53,200
Speaker 5: according to an anonymous source in sf Gate with know

4004
03:41:53,280 --> 03:41:56,440
Speaker 5: your rights training, and in this case, the gatekeeper was

4005
03:41:56,480 --> 03:41:59,640
Speaker 5: able to not let the ICE agents enter and eventually

4006
03:41:59,760 --> 03:42:00,800
Speaker 5: they left.

4007
03:42:01,240 --> 03:42:04,800
Speaker 4: Like ICE isn't impervious. Like all week, ICE has been

4008
03:42:04,800 --> 03:42:09,840
Speaker 4: releasing statements complaining about being compared to to the to.

4009
03:42:09,800 --> 03:42:13,240
Speaker 5: The well once again, right, like another thing that you

4010
03:42:13,280 --> 03:42:15,920
Speaker 5: shouldn't have to be releasing statements about I am.

4011
03:42:15,800 --> 03:42:19,879
Speaker 4: Not the Gestapo shirt has people asking a lot of questions. Yeah,

4012
03:42:19,920 --> 03:42:23,160
Speaker 4: and they're also publishing false stats about ICE officers being

4013
03:42:23,200 --> 03:42:26,760
Speaker 4: assaulted in the line of duty, So like obviously they are.

4014
03:42:27,160 --> 03:42:29,760
Speaker 4: They're facing some kind of like fear even among their

4015
03:42:29,760 --> 03:42:31,560
Speaker 4: own agents. That's why they're all like covered up wherever

4016
03:42:31,600 --> 03:42:34,240
Speaker 4: they go. They're trying to prosecute people for posting information

4017
03:42:34,280 --> 03:42:35,640
Speaker 4: on ICE agents in your area.

4018
03:42:35,879 --> 03:42:38,280
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, but like I say, they're not impervious. There

4019
03:42:38,360 --> 03:42:41,200
Speaker 5: is a difference between a judicial warrant and a warrant

4020
03:42:41,200 --> 03:42:44,800
Speaker 5: that ICE has essentially made itself right, the latter not

4021
03:42:44,879 --> 03:42:46,959
Speaker 5: being signed by a judge. And it appears that the

4022
03:42:47,000 --> 03:42:50,320
Speaker 5: gatekeeper was aware of that. We still have courts, you still,

4023
03:42:50,320 --> 03:42:54,440
Speaker 5: in theory have rights, and you know, well it depends

4024
03:42:54,480 --> 03:42:58,320
Speaker 5: but yeah, yeah, yeah, theoretically that was a pivotal word.

4025
03:42:58,600 --> 03:43:02,200
Speaker 5: But yeah, shout out to the gatekeepers at the Oxnad

4026
03:43:02,560 --> 03:43:04,000
Speaker 5: strawberry plant.

4027
03:43:04,440 --> 03:43:07,560
Speaker 6: And they could be stopped by a door keeper, Like,

4028
03:43:07,680 --> 03:43:10,400
Speaker 6: they can be resisted, they can be stopped from doing things.

4029
03:43:10,959 --> 03:43:13,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, and like, it is genuinely important that this person

4030
03:43:13,520 --> 03:43:16,560
Speaker 5: unders the difference between a judicial warrant and these documents

4031
03:43:16,560 --> 03:43:20,720
Speaker 5: that ICE might produce. And it does illustrate the value

4032
03:43:20,760 --> 03:43:23,760
Speaker 5: of being educated and educating people in your communities about

4033
03:43:23,760 --> 03:43:25,280
Speaker 5: these things if they might be at risk for this.

4034
03:43:26,160 --> 03:43:28,039
Speaker 4: All right, we reported the news.

4035
03:43:28,160 --> 03:43:31,280
Speaker 1: Boy, howdy did we We reported the news.

4036
03:43:38,040 --> 03:43:41,200
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday. With more episodes every week

4037
03:43:41,240 --> 03:43:43,160
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

4038
03:43:43,920 --> 03:43:46,400
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

4039
03:43:46,600 --> 03:43:49,680
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4040
03:43:49,720 --> 03:43:53,280
Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

4041
03:43:53,360 --> 03:43:55,240
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

4042
03:43:55,240 --> 03:43:56,280
Speaker 4: Listen to podcasts.

4043
03:43:56,680 --> 03:43:58,640
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It could Happen Here.

4044
03:43:58,640 --> 03:44:00,480
Speaker 4: Listened directly an episode just Ruptions.

4045
03:44:00,800 --> 03:44:01,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.