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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Coburger's hidden essay reveals

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Speaker 1: a plot to walk free. This essay, found in thousands

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Speaker 1: of pages of documents in his apartment, is at a

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Speaker 1: harbinger of things to come. Also, Coburger screaming from behind bars,

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Speaker 1: I have mental health disorders. Set me free, and tonight

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Speaker 1: are more Coburger victims emerging. How many are there that

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Speaker 1: we don't know about? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: He was very socially in and speaking on the phone

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Speaker 2: for hours with his parents every single day.

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Speaker 1: He is proud. This is right after the murders, thumbs up,

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Speaker 1: self aggrandizing smile, all cleaned up.

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Speaker 2: He just wants to have power for the people.

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Speaker 1: He's a machine of killing machine. Okay, before I get

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Speaker 1: into the thousands of pages that are being poured over

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Speaker 1: as we speak, one revealing his plot to get a reversal,

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Speaker 1: have his plea deal overthrown and guess what it includes

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Speaker 1: claims of prosecutorial misconduct. But before I can get to that,

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Speaker 1: I've got to talk to Susan Hendrix joining us about

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Speaker 1: the creepy selfies, the shirtless selfies, new ones that have

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Speaker 1: just emerged, exactly. Susan Hendrix joining us, a journalist, investigative reporter,

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Speaker 1: author of Down the heel My, Descent Into the Double

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Speaker 1: Murder and Delphi to the control room. I'd like to

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Speaker 1: see the new selfies. Actually that was a mistatement. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't like to see them. I'm gonna have to. Oh

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Speaker 1: dear lord, I'm gonna have to report on them. Just

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Speaker 1: hold that. What the hey? What okay? Tell me, Susan,

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Speaker 1: tell me what this is and why I'm having to

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Speaker 1: look at coburger without a shirt on, flexing and staring

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Speaker 1: into the camera. Why is this happening?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they are cringe worthy. And for the company that

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Speaker 2: looked through his data his self, they found out that.

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Speaker 1: He does he actually have his pants pulled down toward

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Speaker 1: his crotch so I can say more of his belly

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Speaker 1: button hair.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's like in Sports Illustrated magazine, you

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Speaker 3: know cover the swimsuit is pulled down just a tantalizing

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Speaker 3: bit too low.

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Speaker 1: Is that what he's doing? Ew?

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Speaker 2: You, it's gross, it's cringe worthy. If feel sorry for

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Speaker 2: the families who have to look at that. And I

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Speaker 2: was looking at each picture, getting grossed out by the way,

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Speaker 2: but kind of wondering what is he thinking there? He

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Speaker 2: didn't send these to anyone there for himself. It reminded

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Speaker 2: me of the mar Psycho that movie Just Loving Himself

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Speaker 2: is cringeworthy. Discussing very is flexing. It's perplexing seeing all

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Speaker 2: this evidence. What was on his phone?

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Speaker 1: Okay, I think it's deeper than that. Because doctor Sherry

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Speaker 1: Schwartz joining US forensic psychologists specializing in capital mitigation at

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Speaker 1: panthermitigation dot com. She is the author of Criminal Behavior

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Speaker 1: and Where a Law in Psychology intersect. Doctor Sherry, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. I noticed that in one

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Speaker 1: of the photos, and I got a lot more important

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Speaker 1: things to discuss with you, but I had to show

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Speaker 1: these creepy selfies. And I want you to juxtapose these selfies,

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Speaker 1: doctor Sherry, with the fact that we know that Gelli

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Speaker 1: Gonsolvis was stabbed in the face thirty times or more.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it true, Joe Scott Morgan, Then we h at

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Speaker 1: hers to even say it, and look at her beautiful face.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and death

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Speaker 1: investigator isn't it true, Joe Scott that when you have

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Speaker 1: multiple stab wounds, as you and I've discussed before, that

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Speaker 1: they begin to overlap because the person's bam bam, bam

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Speaker 1: bam like that with a in this case of cabar knife,

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Speaker 1: and those stab wounds hit each other. As I've referred

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Speaker 1: to it as biting jello. You can't look at the

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Speaker 1: jello and tell how many bites there were. So we

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Speaker 1: know a thirty stab wounds Kelly Gonsolvis sustained to her face.

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Speaker 1: I believe it was Xana that sustained fifty plus stab wounds.

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Speaker 1: Now now I'm having to look at his shirt list Selfees,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott explain overlapping stab wounds at what was done

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Speaker 1: to Kelly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, when you begin to think about this, Nancy,

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Speaker 4: this also gives you an indication that he is literally

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Speaker 4: on top of her because the proximity of all these

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Speaker 4: woes you talked about the kind of interlocking or overlapping

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Speaker 4: injuries that she sustained. We're talking about Kayley. Where they

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Speaker 4: are so they are so concentrated that the individual that

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Speaker 4: is perpetrating this has to have this individual pinned in

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Speaker 4: one spot where they cannot move because he keeps hitting

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Speaker 4: the target every single time, over and over and over

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Speaker 4: and over again. Not only not only is he cutting

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Speaker 4: her in sizing her, stabbing her, also she's also sustained

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Speaker 4: multiple blunt force trauma where her facial bones were fractured

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Speaker 4: as well.

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Speaker 1: Nance Okay, guys, we're talking about the stablings only to killing.

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Speaker 1: Go on, solve us right now, But there's so much more.

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Speaker 1: Ethan jugular was sliced, there was arterial bleeding all the

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Speaker 1: way up to the ceiling, and this guy is taking

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Speaker 1: his shirtless selfies for his own enjoyment. Listen to what

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Speaker 1: missus Goldsalves told us.

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Speaker 5: We actually learned all the truth from her autopsy report,

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Speaker 5: and we were given her autopsy report on a thumb

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Speaker 5: drive during the sentence. The investigator walked into the courtroom

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Speaker 5: that day and said, and we had to arranged that,

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Speaker 5: and he said, here's the autops report. So in reading

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Speaker 5: that autopsy report, we found out that Kaylie had been

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Speaker 5: stabbed twenty four times to her face and head. She

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Speaker 5: had eleven to her chest neck and like torso area,

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Speaker 5: and three to her upper extremities.

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Speaker 2: So I thought about her eyes too.

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Speaker 5: I was like was her eyes stabbed, but somehow or another,

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Speaker 5: Kaylee's eyes had not been stabbed. Kaylie did have really

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Speaker 5: bad facial damage. She or some of her teeth were

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Speaker 5: we're missing, several were broken, and she had two subdural

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Speaker 5: hematomas to her head, so.

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Speaker 2: Her nose was broken badly.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Kelly's teeth were stabbed out of her mouth.

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Speaker 1: And did you see Steve Gonsolve as her father at

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Speaker 1: the end of that when when they were speaking with

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Speaker 1: us a few days ago, he as his wife is speaking.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how she even speaks about it. What

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Speaker 1: strength this woman has. He looks like he just wants

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Speaker 1: to take the camera and rip the head off. Just

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Speaker 1: the anger seething in them. And do you blame them?

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Speaker 1: Her teeth were stabbed out of her mouth.

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Speaker 4: No, you're talking about this child's daddy, So let that

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Speaker 4: sink in. He I can dollars to donuts. I guarantee

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Speaker 4: m to you. He wants to reach through that camera

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Speaker 4: and grab somebody, and ain't one of us. It's the

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Speaker 4: guy that's currently housed in Idaho Correctional Facility. And I

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Speaker 4: can understand why because Nancy the brutality and not just

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Speaker 4: Cayley's death, but in all of these deaths is pretty

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Speaker 4: much unimaginable. You don't send your kids off to college

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Speaker 4: and expect them to return to you in a casket.

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Speaker 4: It just it doesn't work that way. It's the most

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Speaker 4: disgusting thing on the face of the planet. And this

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Speaker 4: guy was given this guy I'm not going to say

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Speaker 4: his name. I refuse. You can't make me say his name.

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Speaker 4: This guy was given so much latitude leading up and

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Speaker 4: now all of this evidence is coming forward revealing how

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Speaker 4: brutal he was. The timeline leading up to everything, and look,

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Speaker 4: even DNA in this case is far more than we

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Speaker 4: ever expected.

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Speaker 1: There was a trail here, so much evidence. Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: let me see j Just Scott another thing which I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get to, but I had to show these

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Speaker 1: selfies of this guy preening in front of the camera.

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Speaker 1: You do know that he has found a way to

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Speaker 1: appeal his guilty plea, and we uncovered it in his essays.

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Speaker 1: But not only that, I want to ste you on

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Speaker 1: this for a moment. He's now claiming he has all

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Speaker 1: these mental health issues and should be retried or set free,

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Speaker 1: and one of them is an eating disorder. Okay, hold

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Speaker 1: that thought, Doctor Sherry Schwartz. Back to you, joining US

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Speaker 1: forensics expert psychologist, Doctor Sherry Schwartz. His obsession with American psycho.

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Speaker 1: I don't get it, but can I talk to you

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Speaker 1: about his preening in front of the camera and flexing

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Speaker 1: and what it means. It's like Monk. Did you ever

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Speaker 1: see Monk? Monk only wore a certain he's a brilliant

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Speaker 1: homicide investigator. He only wore one type of shirt every day.

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Speaker 1: I think it was a pale blue button down, just

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Speaker 1: like in this case. Occasionally Coburg will go crazy and

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Speaker 1: we're a white button down. But that said, they're lined

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Speaker 1: up behind him and some of the shots. What is

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Speaker 1: this revealing to you? Because the crime scene is blood soaked,

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Speaker 1: it looks like a Jackson Pollock. The closet and the

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Speaker 1: home where he takes these pictures is like bleached clean,

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Speaker 1: and there's this freaky row of all blue button down

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Speaker 1: shirts behind him. What is that, doctor Sherry.

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Speaker 6: I mean a part of it could be his fascination

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Speaker 6: with some level of fame, even if it is something

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Speaker 6: he'll keep internally to feel better about himself. That he's

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Speaker 6: just like Christian vale in American Psycho. But he'll do

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Speaker 6: it better and not get caught. We know how that

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Speaker 6: worked out. These selfies are disturbing because we know that

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Speaker 6: they're not being sent to anyone. They would be disturbing

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Speaker 6: if they're being sent to someone, but.

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Speaker 1: In this case, these are for him. And so it

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Speaker 1: suggested to me that he has.

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Speaker 6: Some sort of internal dialogue going on where he's fascinated

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Speaker 6: with this idea of got.

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Speaker 1: Got to Sherry, got to Sherry. Wait, wait, I want

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Speaker 1: you to look at the screen right now. Okay, Susan Hendricks,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to get Schwartz's analysis of this. But he

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Speaker 1: is saluting the camera. Now, is this particular shot this

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Speaker 1: was taken after the murders, correct Susan Hendricks.

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Speaker 2: It absolutely was. And you see that on his knuckle

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Speaker 2: there the injury.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's almost as if just Scott speaking of

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Speaker 1: the military, he's saying job complete done and saluting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, he is offering up this half assed salute

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Speaker 4: that is doing. But what's more significant there is this

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Speaker 4: abraided area on his knuckle. Nancy, that's key. This thing

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Speaker 4: looks like it's in a state of resolve, but it's

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Speaker 4: still relatively fresh in this in this image, the edges

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Speaker 4: from my appearance, from my perspective right now is kind

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Speaker 4: of dried out. But yeah, how do you how do

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Speaker 4: you explain that? Look, we get things all the time

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Speaker 4: on our hands, people at work, you know, with their hands.

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Speaker 4: This guy's a PhD student, Nancy, and doing domainial labor,

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Speaker 4: all right, So we have to begin to think what

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Speaker 4: other kind of injuries did did he have that he

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Speaker 4: was presenting with? Did anybody else see anything else on

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Speaker 4: the surface of his skin? And you know, I begin

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Speaker 4: to think back, we've just discussed the brutality of this

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Speaker 4: multiple homicide, this butchery. He's got to have some injury somewhere.

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Speaker 4: There's something because you know, when you're using a knife

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Speaker 4: like this over and over again, you're also using I

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Speaker 4: think he used it as a bludgeon as well, where

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Speaker 4: he could flip it over and use the end of

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Speaker 4: the knife, and that's going to involve his fist. And

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Speaker 4: even if he's gloved, you're still going to get these

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Speaker 4: little injuries like that through the glove, even through a

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Speaker 4: latex glove, because there's an abraided area. There's a friction

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Speaker 4: that occurs when you strike something, and that would that would.

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Speaker 1: Potentially let me throw this to Josh colesrude. Josh Colsrud's

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Speaker 1: joining us right now, Come on, defense attorney, former US

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Speaker 1: attorney founder Coulsrud Law Offices. What do you do when

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Speaker 1: you're a client after the murders and we know he

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Speaker 1: committed the murders because he's pled guilty, there's no doubt left,

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Speaker 1: and he has on a pair it looks like black

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Speaker 1: klingy tights pull down, I would say, almost to his

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Speaker 1: pubic hair. Dare I even think of that? Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank you? With a cut to his finger, and this

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Speaker 1: is what he's doing. You know those would come into evidence.

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Speaker 1: How disgusted do you believe that your rs would be

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Speaker 1: if they had seen that? This is just part of

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Speaker 1: the evidence the prosecution hid from the victims' families before

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Speaker 1: he entered that deal behind their backs. What about it

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Speaker 1: calls rude?

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Speaker 7: Well, first off, I think we can all agree that mister.

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Speaker 8: Coberger is a cold blooded killer.

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Speaker 7: However, as a former prosecutor, looking at these selfies, you

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Speaker 7: know a selfie is not a smoking gun. In twenty

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Speaker 7: twenty five, everybody takes them. If a selfie equaled vanity,

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Speaker 7: then half of America.

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Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, but put him up? Put him up? Well,

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Speaker 1: where do you think you are? Do you think you're

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Speaker 1: in pre K right now? Are you a nursery school?

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Speaker 1: Look around. You can't just say something like that and

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Speaker 1: not expect to get caught on the carpet. Do you

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Speaker 1: take shirtless selfies? I'm just curious, Josh, do you stand

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Speaker 1: in front of the mirror with your pants pulled down

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Speaker 1: to your crotch and buff all up and take a

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Speaker 1: do you?

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Speaker 7: I'd like to know if I was in college and

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Speaker 7: I had an iPhone, which I didn't when I was

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Speaker 7: in college, but if I did, I'm sure that I

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Speaker 7: would have, as would all of my friends and all

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Speaker 7: of my girlfriends.

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Speaker 1: Then is that a no, you don't? As you doesn't.

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Speaker 1: I don't you take shirtless selfies where you're all like

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Speaker 1: clinched up?

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Speaker 7: You know?

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Speaker 8: I wouldn't say that. It would be unusual to do that.

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Speaker 7: You know, sometimes when you do the track of how

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Speaker 7: you look when you're working out to be like, all right,

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Speaker 7: I want to take a picture of how I look

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Speaker 7: now and compare it to myself a couple of months

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Speaker 7: from now to see if I have the improvement.

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Speaker 8: So I think that there are advantages to taking selfies.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know, just cut the crap. Okay, you don't,

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Speaker 1: you don't McDonough help him. Chris McDonough joining me, Director

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Speaker 1: Cole Case Foundation, homicide detective who has scoured this crime scene.

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Speaker 1: He started the interview room on YouTube. Please. The point

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Speaker 1: is not a shirtless selfie. The point is he's doing

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Speaker 1: this right after the murders, right around the time of

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Speaker 1: the murders. That's where his head is. Those four students

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Speaker 1: lost their lives as part of his vanity project.

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Speaker 9: Yeah.

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Speaker 10: Absolutely, And you know, just look at the salute. The

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Speaker 10: salute is a cub scout salute. I mean he's got

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Speaker 10: two fingers put together with the injury on his hand,

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Speaker 10: and it just goes to show, you know, how empty

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Speaker 10: this guy is. There's nothing there. I mean, these pictures

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Speaker 10: look like they just came out on the movie Zoolander.

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Speaker 10: I mean, he has been projecting this persona for so

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Speaker 10: long and now the crime is finished, and now he's

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Speaker 10: trying to gain power as a result of look what

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Speaker 10: I have done. And these are disgusting, but it goes

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Speaker 10: in in concert with the type of personality he is.

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Speaker 1: Colsrud I would like to hear, although you will neither

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Speaker 1: admit or deny your own shortless selfies. That said, how

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Speaker 1: would you get that suppressed? Because you do not want

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Speaker 1: the jury to say that.

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Speaker 7: I would argue that it is unfairly prejudicial pursuant to

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Speaker 7: Rule four h three.

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Speaker 8: Rules of Evidence.

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Speaker 7: It doesn't show that he has motive, it doesn't show

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Speaker 7: that it's a confession. It's not even sent to any person.

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Speaker 7: It is solely for himself. It was found on his

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Speaker 7: phone subsequent to when after he was arrested. And if

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Speaker 7: I'm the prosecutor in the case, the only way that

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Speaker 7: I can think I could get this in would be

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Speaker 7: to show injury like you showed on his knuckles. But

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Speaker 7: the fact that he's shirtless or portrays Christian Bale and

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Speaker 7: American psycho. Unless there's some writings that he has where

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Speaker 7: he says I want to be like American psycho, and

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Speaker 7: then you can juxtapose that picture.

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Speaker 8: Maybe, but it's going to.

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Speaker 7: Be a tough sell to the judge, and I think

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Speaker 7: that would be precluded.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, Josh CALSRD, do you want a lot of cases,

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Speaker 1: But let me remind you that evs can come in

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Speaker 1: front of the jury to show motive, course of conduct,

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Speaker 1: frame of mind, intent, the mental state at the time

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Speaker 1: of the incident. These selfies will come in for that.

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Speaker 1: And as far as did he write about American Psycho,

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Speaker 1: he had a cash treasure trove of American Psycho videos

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Speaker 1: and photos, so he didn't have to write about it.

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Speaker 1: He was looking at him and doing the Lord only

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Speaker 1: what as he was looking at them. And also the

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Speaker 1: timing of these photos is very important, just before and

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Speaker 1: after the murders goes to whether the murders were sexually motivated.

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Speaker 1: We also know, don't we don't we Susan Hendrix that

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Speaker 1: found on his phone were many many searches of raping women,

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Speaker 1: having sex with women when they were comatos. That was

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Speaker 1: one of his sex fantasies. That's what he expected to

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Speaker 1: find the night he went into eleven twenty two, King wrote,

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Speaker 1: but that's not what he found and they all died.

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Speaker 1: So all of this fits together with a sex related motive,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it well?

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent? Nancy. And as we were talking about

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Speaker 2: it twenty twenty two, think about that house on King wrote,

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Speaker 2: how much fun they had They posted on social media selfies.

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Speaker 2: I believe that Brian Koberger not only stopped the students

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Speaker 2: that he killed. I believe he was stalking others. And

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Speaker 2: I believe he stopped them online too, So now is

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Speaker 2: he mimicking them now I could take selfies. I believe

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Speaker 2: he was jealous of their friendships, and I believe that's

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Speaker 2: what he was doing there Washington State. Planning this murder on.

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Speaker 11: A location of your emergency.

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Speaker 2: I don't think he's happen in our hotel.

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Speaker 11: You don't know what what is address of the emergency?

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Speaker 11: What is the rest of the address?

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Speaker 1: Oh, King two Roads, Okay?

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Speaker 11: And there's not a house for an apartment, it's a house.

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Speaker 11: Can you repeat theadress to make sure that I have

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Speaker 11: it right.

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Speaker 8: I'll talk to you guys. We're we have a delight,

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Speaker 8: so we're next to them.

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Speaker 11: I need someone to repeat the address for raification.

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Speaker 10: The address one one to two Kings.

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Speaker 1: Rugs Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 10: It's a social awkward us.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't know how to relate to other people. He's

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Speaker 1: alienated himself.

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Speaker 12: Nobody wants to be around the guy, let alone give

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Speaker 12: them their telephone number and address to be added as

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Speaker 12: a contact to his phone.

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Speaker 1: Because I don't think he feels much at all. All

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Speaker 1: the bloody clothes, the bloody ever is all gone, and

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Speaker 1: there he is songs up. Guys, I did it.

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Speaker 8: This is his dissertation.

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Speaker 1: This is what he was.

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Speaker 8: Preparing for the whole time.

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Speaker 1: This is why he was able to pull it off.

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Speaker 1: This guy Kiberger left a trail a mile wide, and

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Speaker 1: the prosecution hid all of these facts from the victims'

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Speaker 1: families and the public and then took a deal informing

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Speaker 1: them about the play deal after it had already been accepted.

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Speaker 1: And isn't it true, Josh Colesry, veteran trial lawyer, that

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Speaker 1: once a plea dealers offered and accepted, there's no going back.

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Speaker 7: Yes, once a please accepted, it is ironclad, almost no

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Speaker 7: appealable rights, except for under three circumstances. A in effective

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Speaker 7: assist as a council is one, A number two prospratorial

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Speaker 7: and misconduct, or number three a manifest injustice.

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Speaker 1: Now what we are learning is Susan Hendricks joining US

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Speaker 1: investigative journalist who has been there on the scene from

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Speaker 1: the get go. He is writing and writing and writing it.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to quote some of his writings that we've

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Speaker 1: uncovered in thousands of pages that were taken from his

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Speaker 1: Washington State apartment. The confessed killer writes at length about

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Speaker 1: how procedural injustice in the American system has produced many

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Speaker 1: false confessions quote false guilty please manifest due to a

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Speaker 1: lack of judicial oversight, blaming the judge and plea deals

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Speaker 1: that seemed to compel the defendant to enter them force

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Speaker 1: the defendant to plead guilty under oath. If defendants failed

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Speaker 1: to accept a plea bargain, he writes, prosecutors will seek

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Speaker 1: this trick discharges. Some people plead guilty to crimes they

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Speaker 1: didn't commit, as to choose the lesser of two evils.

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Speaker 1: So we've got him blaming the judge the system. Now,

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Speaker 1: he says, quote eyewitness misidentification is an issue and therefore

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Speaker 1: we need increasing video surveillance, which is interesting since he

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Speaker 1: picked a home that had no surveillance cameras. He goes

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Speaker 1: on Susan Hendrix to blame prosecutorial misconduct. He describes unethical

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Speaker 1: behavior where people played guilty when they shouldn't. Have Another

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Speaker 1: seven page single space paper we discovered refers to a

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Speaker 1: gruesome stabbing murder case. His words, not mine. Blood pulled

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Speaker 1: around the victim and was spattered on the walls and

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Speaker 1: television near the victim's body. He describes how the victim

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Speaker 1: was found, the grizzly details. He goes on and on

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Speaker 1: and on. Okay, explain to me, Susan Hendrix, this plot

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Speaker 1: revealing Coburger's alleged plans to walk free to get out

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Speaker 1: of the plea deal.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I believe after reading that that he had

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Speaker 2: planned this every single day, even the plea he planned.

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Speaker 2: I believe this was all that he thought about, all

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Speaker 2: that he did. And Nancy, I listened to your heartfelt

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Speaker 2: conversation with Kelly's parents. The laughable part here is they

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Speaker 2: might have a case against the prosecutor, not Brian Coober Cober.

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Speaker 2: It's not going to work here that they were if

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Speaker 2: anything nice to him. I remember hearing the judge say, oh,

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Speaker 2: you don't have to stand up. This was during the

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Speaker 2: plead deal and it infuriated Steve Gonzalveez. So here he

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Speaker 2: doesn't have a case, but I think he was ready

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Speaker 2: for it. He was using his students to get in

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Speaker 2: their minds and think of covering everything. But they did

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Speaker 2: know what color car he was driving, and he did

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Speaker 2: leave DNA there, so it didn't work out in his favor,

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Speaker 2: but the prosecution a case against them not going to

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Speaker 2: work here.

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Speaker 1: You know, writing about procedural injustice, and this has been

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Speaker 1: uncovered now. In fact, out of thousands of pages of

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Speaker 1: documents that he kept meticulously, he is essentially hatching a

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Speaker 1: plot to get his plea is guilty pleate reversed. He

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Speaker 1: refers to to lack of judicial oversight, blaming a judge

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Speaker 1: for taking a plea that was a misguided plea. This

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Speaker 1: is a real dig to Dave Mack joining US Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter, a real dig at the judge claiming

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Speaker 1: prosecutorial misconduct would be overlooked by the judge. And what

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Speaker 1: about Dave matt claiming false guilty? Please, where people are

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Speaker 1: between a rock and a hard spot. If they don't

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Speaker 1: plead guilty in his case to life, then they'll get

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Speaker 1: the death penalty. So therefore, what he pled to something

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Speaker 1: he didn't do. That's what he's saying.

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Speaker 13: That's exactly what he's saying. He's laying this out there

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Speaker 13: ahead of time as to why he would plead guilty.

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Speaker 13: Eye didn't have a choice. I had to because they

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Speaker 13: told me if I didn't do this this was going

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Speaker 13: to happen. But Nancy, you pointed out something during the

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Speaker 13: hearing where the judge was actually asking very p civic questions,

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Speaker 13: and for.

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Speaker 4: Those of us who are not attorneys, we didn't.

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Speaker 13: Quite understand why the judge was going so far with

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Speaker 13: his Q and A here, And the whole point was

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Speaker 13: the judge was making sure everything that Coburger was claiming

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Speaker 13: would stick up so he couldn't come back later and

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Speaker 13: try to pull this. It was a magnificent job by

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Speaker 13: the judge in that moment, but he was obviously planning.

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Speaker 13: He was going the long game here, Nancy, from the

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Speaker 13: very beginning.

434
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: You know another thing, Guys, you were seeing the victims

435
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 1: that lost their lives that early early morning, in the

436
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: wee hours of the morning, when Coburger entered their home

437
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: stealthily expecting to find women asleep. We believed that he

438
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: could rape, and instead he found them up in a

439
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: live ordering door dash eating, texting, and it was literally

440
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 1: a bloodbath. Chris mcduonn ad joining US veteran homicide detective

441
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: and star of the Interview Room. Chris, this is what

442
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: I would always do, and I mean for every single

443
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: guilty plea I ever took. I'd swear the defendant end

444
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: under oath on the Bible and make them state. I

445
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: would ask questions to which they would respond, And one

446
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: of them, after I swore them in, was are you

447
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: entering a guilty plea today too, let's just pretend murder. Yes,

448
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: And have you been promised anything or threatened with anything

449
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,959
Speaker 1: in order for you to plead guilty today? And they

450
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: would go no. And then I would say, are you

451
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: pleading guilty of your own free will without any hope

452
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: of gain? Has anybody threatened you coerced you to plead

453
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: guilty today? And then they would answer no, So then

454
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: they're under oath. I did not hear that happen during

455
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: this guilty plea? Is I mean this? If this didn't happen,

456
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: I mean everybody in the county jail would walk free

457
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: because they would say, oh, I was afraid I would

458
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: get a worse sentence if I went to trial. I

459
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: really didn't do it.

460
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 14: Totals yeah, absolutely, Nancy, And I recall you, you know,

461
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 14: saying exactly that when he didn't tell the story and

462
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 14: the court let him, you know, just basically, you know,

463
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 14: go to jail, go to prison.

464
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 10: But here here's a really other interesting thought to dovetail

465
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 10: in to what you're saying here. If we go back

466
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 10: to those pictures just for a minute, just to think

467
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 10: about the duality of this guy's personality.

468
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 8: And look at the.

469
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 10: One where he's at the lake where he's in the shirt,

470
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 10: and you look at the mountain range behind him.

471
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: You know, you know what that mountain range is.

472
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 10: That's Mount Ravery Neerk And he who's famous that one

473
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 10: right there, who's famous for that area, Ted Bundy. And

474
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 10: if we take a look at his phone and the

475
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 10: obsession that he had with serial killing. And there's another

476
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 10: one here where there's a rock behind him in one

477
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 10: side he's studying right there that one. Look at the

478
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 10: right rock. It says slus. This guy hates women. So

479
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 10: in one part of his personality he's projecting in his

480
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 10: public persona, Hey, I'm going to try to get out

481
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,959
Speaker 10: of this. And the second real part in his hidden

482
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 10: personality is I'm going to kill women.

483
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: You know what, Chris mcdonoy, You just put chills down

484
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: my spine to think this guy walking around amongst all

485
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: those beautiful young co eds. I mean, it was just hunting.

486
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: They were his prey and now, these writings found in

487
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: one of his essays show he knows how to go

488
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: about getting a guilty plea overturned. He does, He's researched it,

489
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: he's written about it. And believe you me, Josh Colesrude,

490
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: former assistant US attorney now criminal defense attorney. Josh. You

491
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: can blood, sweat and tears, you can give it all

492
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: to your client. But then when they're behind bars, you

493
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: go on about your life. You go to your next client,

494
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: and they're sitting there, gnashing their teeth and twisting their tail.

495
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: All they have to think about behind bars is how

496
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: am I going to get out of here? How am

497
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: I going to get that plea reversed? That is what

498
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: he is doing right now. And it doesn't matter how

499
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: hard you worked or what a great job you did,

500
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: you will go right down the crapper. You will. The

501
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: attorney will be sacrificed with an ineffective assistance of counsel.

502
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: And I heard Chris mcdonna state the judge let this

503
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: plea happen. Well, yes he did, but you know you

504
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: can't really stop a blind plea. But it was the

505
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: prosecutor's duty to ask those questions, make sure they were

506
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: asked put the defense under oath and make sure he

507
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: was pleading by his own volition, not out of fear,

508
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: threat or coercion. But isn't it true clients, no matter

509
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: what you do for them, they will claim ineffective assistance

510
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: of counsel to get out of jail. That's all he's

511
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: thinking about right now. Cole's rude.

512
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 8: That's absolutely correct.

513
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 7: The most common appeal from a plea agreement is the IAC,

514
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 7: the ineffective assistance of counsel claim.

515
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 8: And what he has to.

516
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 7: Show is that his lawyer missed something that was very obvious.

517
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 7: It was a standard deviation from what was expected. And

518
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 7: here I think he's going to have some difficulty because

519
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 7: his attorney did a great job of getting him out

520
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 7: of the death penalty. You know, that was the attorney's

521
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 7: main motivation at the time. Also, mister Coberger under oath

522
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 7: admitted to these So I think that his angle right

523
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 7: here is going to be prosecutorial misconduct. He's going to

524
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 7: say that the prosecutor hid evidence, that the prosecutor used

525
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 7: controversial DNA technology IgG technology that was illegal, and I

526
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 7: think that's.

527
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 8: Going to be where his angle is going to be

528
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 8: in this case.

529
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: The plea deal, the infamous plea deal taken by the

530
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: prosecutor after so much evidence, so many facts were hidden

531
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: from the families. Coburger as we go to air tonight, plotting, scheming, planning,

532
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: a way to get that plea reversed. What were they hiding.

533
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 9: Just telling us our child was stabbed brutally?

534
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 10: You know how many times?

535
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 5: How many times? We just learned the day of or

536
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 5: the day before the sentencing, how many times Kailee had

537
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 5: been stabbed.

538
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, I am stunned because she was stabbed

539
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: so many times they could not identify her, and you

540
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: just learned about that when the plea was set to

541
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: go down.

542
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 5: We learned about it after the plea the day before

543
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 5: the sentence seing guys should.

544
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 9: Have been touched in the face. He was a creep

545
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 9: and he's a disgusting creeple he is a creep.

546
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: State away from him, anti woman, misogynist, stalking behavior thirteen

547
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: and flanks where he would intimidate for stalk female students,

548
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: and so much more. Tonight, are their more victims emerging?

549
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: If we're hearing about these victims, how many other victims

550
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: are out there? And what is the severity of what

551
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,919
Speaker 1: happened to them? Joining me in allstar peal makes sense

552
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 1: of what we are learning to. Women tell police they

553
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: suspect Coburger was stalking them while he was at Washington

554
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: State University. Straight out to Susan Hendrix, these women state

555
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: that they spotted Coburger at their employment over and over

556
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: and over, to the point other coworkers would warn them,

557
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: he's here, he's here. Then one of them goes home.

558
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: She is semi nude changing clothes, and someone comes to

559
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 1: her window and either taps on the window or hits

560
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: the window, and she realizes someone's watching her. And I'm

561
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: going to go to you in just a second, Chris McDonough,

562
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: that's Chris mcdonna. I have and I have looked at

563
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: the scene over and over, and that's exactly what Coburger

564
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: was doing here, and he had a great vantage point

565
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: to stare into the girl's bedroom windows. But not only that.

566
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: One of them has a husband, and during one of

567
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: these stalking episodes, the husband comes home and sees a

568
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 1: white car speeding away similar to Brian Coburger's. So we

569
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: know there are other victims. Tell me about these two.

570
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a clear pattern here. One of the

571
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 2: students worked at the university bookstore. He went in. She

572
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 2: never gave him her name, and he called her by name.

573
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: He was obviously looking into who she was and would

574
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 2: just stare at her. Another one worked in the criminology department,

575
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 2: and she said she caught eye contact with him out

576
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 2: of her window, which means he was staring directly in.

577
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 2: She ran and hid in the bathroom. She even went

578
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: to Brian Coberger and said, I'm Leslian, there's nothing that's

579
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: going to happen here. Didn't deter him. This was happening

580
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 2: over and over again, and I believe he was looking

581
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: for someone to murder and he found that sadly on

582
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: King Road. But I remember Steve Gonzalez telling you, Nancy,

583
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: that there were red flags everywhere with this guy, thirteen

584
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: incidents that they knew.

585
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: Of, and the school, Washington State did nothing. Could you retail.

586
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: Very slowly they encounter where the woman, the victim, saw

587
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: him looking at her through the window and she ran

588
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: and hid in the bathroom.

589
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was in the classroom and she could feel,

590
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 2: you know when you feel someone kind of staring at you,

591
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 2: and looked at him, made eye contact looking out the window.

592
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 2: And she said the only way that that would occur

593
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 2: is if he was looking directly where she was. I

594
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 2: believe she was the target here. Then she sees him

595
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 2: come in the building and she runs and hides in

596
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 2: the bathroom. That's how threatening she thought he was, that

597
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: she had to hide. There are people, Maybe you don't

598
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 2: want to see it work. And he said, oh, you

599
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 2: don't run and hide in the bathroom. And you mentioned

600
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 2: the husband. There were footprints up to that window, and

601
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: she said it was clear, or her husband said it

602
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 2: was clear. That he kind of backed away because there

603
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 2: was only one set of footprints. And one of the

604
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: women said this, Nancy, it's so pressing that nothing seemed

605
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 2: to deter him. He wasn't bothered by.

606
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: Rejection crime stories with Nancy Gray Dotter Sherry Schwartz joining

607
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: US forensic psychologist author Offware, a law and psychology intersect,

608
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: Doctor Sherry, I've had so many cases. This is anik Jodel.

609
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: I don't have a statistic where it would be. I'd

610
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: be prosecuting a rape or a murder, maybe a serial rape,

611
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 1: and I would look back in the suspect's history, way

612
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: back way back. I would find peeping tom and it

613
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: happens so often that I started talking to people in

614
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: the office, you know, the few people that I confided

615
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: in there. Have you noticed that so many of these

616
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: murder perps and or rape perpse have been peeping Tom's

617
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: It's just the beginning. That's one thing I want to

618
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: throw at you, But first I want to explore what

619
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: Susan Hendricks just said. Gosh, this is reminding me so

620
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,479
Speaker 1: much a trying cases, because before I would put say

621
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: you on the stand, I would meet with you ad

622
00:38:54,239 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: nauseum to figure out what it all meant. When someone

623
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: a grown lady young in her twenties, but still a

624
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: grown lady runs and hides. This woman is not fanciful.

625
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: She's got a job, she's going to school, she's running household.

626
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 1: She ran and hid from Coburger. She ran in the bathroom,

627
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: shut the door and locked it. That's an instinct. That's

628
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: why we are alive today, because we have instincts and

629
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 1: we act on them. Why did this young lady see

630
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: Coburger and run and hide in the bathroom.

631
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 6: Well, she either had prior interactions with him, or saw

632
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 6: him around, or something about that particular interaction, which is

633
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 6: completely nonverbal. Something told her her instinct, her fight or

634
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 6: flight response said flee, get out, go hide. This is

635
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 6: somebody who has the potential to cause you danger and

636
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 6: these are things that she and be underestimated when people

637
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 6: have reactions like that.

638
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: And of course, just Cole's rude, your veteran trial lawyer,

639
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: this incident may or may not have come into trial

640
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: as a similar transaction, but it speaks to me. It

641
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: means something to me that this woman, other women were

642
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: so instinctively afraid of coburger they would hide. Just wait

643
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: till I tell you about what a mother hen did

644
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: in the criminal procedure department at WSU. Just wait, you're

645
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: gonna freak. But that means something. But it would never

646
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: have come into evidence, would it? In a nutshell calls rude?

647
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 8: Well, and you're absolutely right, Nancy.

648
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 7: In violent cases, judges do allow sometimes some type of

649
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 7: character evidence. And what this could show is a pattern

650
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 7: or a pattern evidence that could go towards motive later on,

651
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 7: that this defendant was learning how to be a predator.

652
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 7: He was learning how to case female victims, how to

653
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 7: hide his tracks, how to target certain female victims. However,

654
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 7: the evidence has cannot be unserved for judicial which is

655
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 7: what the argument would be in this case.

656
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 12: A Washington State University faculty member says her maternal instinct

657
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 12: took over when she wouldn't allow a female student to

658
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 12: be left alone in an office on campus with Coburger.

659
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 12: She keeps herself busy until he left, and says it

660
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 12: wasn't anything specific about his behavior that prompted a response,

661
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 12: it was just a feeling she had at the time.

662
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 12: After Coberger left, she told the student to email her

663
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 12: with the subject line nine to one one if she

664
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 12: ever needed help.

665
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: J Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics, Chanital State University.

666
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: A faculty was so concerned about Coburger stalking this particular

667
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: and I've got look at this. All of these are

668
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: other instances of him scaring women, but this one. A

669
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: faculty member was so concerned that she told the girl

670
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: just text me nine on one if he comes back.

671
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: Look that is grounded in something. All of these women

672
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: are not hysterical. And you remember that other home invasion

673
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 1: they have not yet attributed to Coburger, which leads me too,

674
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: this is not a quantum leap of faith. What else

675
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: is out there? What else is out there?

676
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 4: Nancy? I'm in my twenty first year of academia this year.

677
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 4: And let me tell you something. When you're in an environment,

678
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 4: in an academic environment, and you have freshmen that are

679
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 4: coming in, returning sophomores, juniors, and certainly those that are

680
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 4: about to graduate, they are the most vulnerable when it

681
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 4: comes to a faculty member. And look, I know he

682
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 4: was a TA, but he's been given charge over these individuals,

683
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 4: over these students, to instruct them. Nancy, I submit to

684
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 4: you that this whole game about the PhD thing, this

685
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 4: is a means to an end. He saw this as

686
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 4: shooting fish in a barrel because he knew that he

687
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 4: would have instantaneous access to some of the most vulnerable people,

688
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 4: those that want a degree, those that want to be

689
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 4: successful in the university. He could do and say anything

690
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 4: to them because he perceived himself as having power. And

691
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 4: it's a terrible situation to send your kids to the

692
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 4: university and have a monster like this in this environment.

693
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 4: And let me tell you one more thing if you

694
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 4: like that one. I think that WSU got hoodwinked into

695
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 4: hiring this guy. That's what I really think. I don't

696
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 4: think they did a deep dive on his background at all.

697
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 4: And you know, you think about the position that this

698
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 4: university put these kids in because they gave him charge

699
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 4: over these kids. Hadn't it Hadn't it ever struck you

700
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 4: as odd that he didn't get along with his supervisors.

701
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 4: You know why, because his purpose was not to be

702
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 4: there as an academic. His purpose was to be there

703
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 4: as a predator, Nancy, you know.

704
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 1: Following up on that, Chris McDonough joining me, former homicide detective.

705
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: I don't know if you or if anybody on the

706
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: panel ever had this experience, but over and over and

707
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,280
Speaker 1: over and over, I would see cases that had morphed,

708
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: had graduated into rape, serial rate and or murder where

709
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,399
Speaker 1: it all started with a freak peeping Tom. He would

710
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: be a Peeping Tom and it would be dismissed. Peeping

711
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: Tom paid twenty five dollars Peeping Tom order violation, citation,

712
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: and it would go suddenly. It would be more and

713
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: more serious until it culminated and landed as an indictment

714
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: on my desk to prosecute. Have you ever noticed that

715
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: starting with Peeping Tom?

716
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, absolutely, that voyeurism in of itself is the fuel

717
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 10: that helped fan the fantasy. And remember Nancy when we

718
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 10: were there. And if you look at this, I mean,

719
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 10: this picture right here tells us everything we need to know.

720
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 10: The intensity of this particular picture. This is the intensity

721
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 10: that he is operating with while voyeurism. And if we

722
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 10: think about the fuel that he is now operating on,

723
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 10: it's all of that intense non consensual pornography. And think

724
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 10: about that him sitting in the backyard of those four kids'

725
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 10: house and has a fish bowl type of view. And

726
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 10: that's why I have always been fascinated by that one

727
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 10: cylinder block underneath the window of the back bedroom at

728
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 10: that house. I saw him in my mind through my experience,

729
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 10: just sitting there and just waiting for those kids to

730
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 10: fall asleep and then his fantasy starts to play out,

731
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 10: because that's what was driving him.

732
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: And you're right, Chris mcdonah, he wanted sleeping slash comatose

733
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: women to rate based on his own computer searches. All

734
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: of this kept away from the victim's family. This and

735
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: more tonight Coburger behind bars plotting his jailhouse exit. Legally,

736
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: listen to what Steve and Christy gounsolve Is say about

737
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: this plea deal.

738
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 9: For me, it was outrage because my daughter was fighting

739
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 9: up to her very last breath.

740
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 1: Over and over.

741
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 9: She kept trying to get out of that bed and

742
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 9: he was just drilling her. And she's fighting for her

743
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 9: last breath. And I got this old Santa Claus who's

744
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 9: just thrown out of White Towl, just saying, oh, let's

745
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:47,720
Speaker 9: just make it all go away.

746
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,240
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,