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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the White Tail Woods, presented by first Light, creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First

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Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by doctor Mike Chamberlain to discuss

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Speaker 2: the future of wild turkeys and turkey hunting in America.

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Speaker 2: All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast,

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Speaker 2: brought to you by Moultrie. And this week we are

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Speaker 2: talking turkeys, and we're talking turkeys because just a few

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Speaker 2: days from now, when you know, a couple days after

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Speaker 2: the show launches, it will be Turkey Week at Meat Eater.

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Speaker 2: Turkey Week is running March thirtieth through April third, twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty six. All things turkey across the Mediator platforms. All

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Speaker 2: sorts of new podcasts, new videos, new arts, racles, contests,

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Speaker 2: social media, lots of fun reasons to get excited and

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Speaker 2: celebrate turkeys. And so this week we are going to

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Speaker 2: do the same thing here on wy'ed tont And my

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Speaker 2: guest today is quite possibly the most well known, foremost

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Speaker 2: expert on all things wild turkeys in America, and that

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Speaker 2: is doctor Mike Chamberlain. He's got a heck of a title.

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Speaker 2: His title is the National Wild Turkey Federation Distinguished Professor

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Speaker 2: at the University of Georgia. This is the University of

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Speaker 2: Georgia Warnell School of Forestry and Natural Resources is the

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Speaker 2: technical name there. He has been researching wild turkeys for

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Speaker 2: more than thirty years. He is a passionate turkey hunter.

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Speaker 2: He is the creator and the most often content producer

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Speaker 2: for Wild Turkey Labs. Wild Turkey lab dot com, I

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Speaker 2: believe is the url for that website where you can

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Speaker 2: find all sorts of articles, research papers, basically everything that

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Speaker 2: he has compiled, worked on, or been a part of

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Speaker 2: when it comes to wild turkey behavior, research studies, the

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Speaker 2: status of their populations, and much much more. If you

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Speaker 2: enjoy turkey hunting, this is somebody you should be listening to.

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Speaker 2: And hopefully you've already heard from him, read some of

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Speaker 2: his things, seen him across the world. He's very active

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Speaker 2: in the public. He's one of our you know, as

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Speaker 2: I mentioned, great communicators on this topic. But what I

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Speaker 2: wanted to chat with him today about was the future.

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Speaker 2: What does the future hold for this animal, this bird

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Speaker 2: that so many of us love to chase, to hear,

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Speaker 2: to hunt, to eat. Over the last five or six years,

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Speaker 2: there has been an increasing awareness of the fact that

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Speaker 2: turkeys are not doing as well as they once were.

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Speaker 2: There's been a lot of debate about why that might be.

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Speaker 2: There's been a lot of discussion about what we should

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Speaker 2: do about it, and what in fact is happening, and

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Speaker 2: how hunters maybe can or cannot make a different diference

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Speaker 2: on what's happening with turkeys. Should we be lowering bag limits,

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Speaker 2: should we be changing season dates, should we not be

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Speaker 2: using certain turkey loads, should we not be using decoys

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Speaker 2: or blinds or reaping techniques. There's all sorts of debate

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Speaker 2: on this front, and all of that is why I

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Speaker 2: wanted to have a kind of status update from Mike.

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Speaker 2: What's actually happening now, What can we confirm is true?

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Speaker 2: Where is the jury still out? What can turkey hunters

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Speaker 2: do about this? What do we need to be aware

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Speaker 2: of as we come into the twenty twenty six hunting

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Speaker 2: season and seasons to come. What's the future going to

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Speaker 2: look like ten years from now or twenty years from now.

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Speaker 2: All of that is discussed today. If you like turkeys,

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Speaker 2: if you love turkey hunting, this is a must listen

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Speaker 2: to help prepare you for what's coming down the line

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Speaker 2: and how all of us can ensure that there are

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Speaker 2: many more enjoyable turkey seasons to come. So that's what's

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Speaker 2: in store for today. I also want to let you

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Speaker 2: know that we do have a really cool collaboration with

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Speaker 2: doctor Mike Chamberlain and his Wild Turkey Lab with a

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Speaker 2: project coming up related to Meetator's Turkey Week. There's a

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Speaker 2: really neat initiative that Mike has going on called Wild

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Speaker 2: Turkey DNA, in which he is asking for citizens to

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Speaker 2: submit samples of any turkeys that they have killed that

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Speaker 2: have very unique plumage, like all white feathers or funky colors,

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Speaker 2: different things like that. And so Mediator is going to

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Speaker 2: be hosting a photo contest in which you can submit

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Speaker 2: photos of your unique plumage turkeys while also encouraging people

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Speaker 2: to participate in this citizen science initiative as well. You

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Speaker 2: can learn more about that once Turkey Week starts at

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Speaker 2: the Mediator website and that's the meat eater dot com.

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Speaker 2: It's kicking off March thirtieth, twenty twenty six, so check

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Speaker 2: it out. Until then, though, we're going to kick off

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Speaker 2: Turkey Week a little bit early with this very interesting,

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Speaker 2: very practical conversation about the future of turkeys and turkey

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Speaker 2: hunting with doctor Mike Chamberlain. Enjoy all right. Joining me

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Speaker 2: in now on the line is doctor Mike Chamberlain. Welcome

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Speaker 2: to the show.

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Speaker 3: Mike. Good to be with you. Mark.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

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Speaker 2: It's been a long time coming. You've been on the

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Speaker 2: Mediator podcast, You've been all over the media world in

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Speaker 2: recent years sharing the I was gonna say the good

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Speaker 2: news but in some cases good and bad news when

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Speaker 2: it comes to two turkeys with the hunting world, and

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Speaker 2: have really made an impact. But for some reason, I

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Speaker 2: haven't gotten you on this podcast yet, So I'm glad

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Speaker 2: it's finally happening. Glad we have an excuse to get

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Speaker 2: to chat some and I want to just dive right

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Speaker 2: in the deep end because your time is valuable, the

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Speaker 2: listener's time is valuable, and I don't think we have

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Speaker 2: any time to waste when it comes to wild turkeys.

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Speaker 2: So if you could help us lay a foundation for

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Speaker 2: this conversation by giving me your best attempt at like

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Speaker 2: a three minute history of turkeys in America. If you

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Speaker 2: were stuck in an elevator for like two three minutes

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Speaker 2: with someone and they said, hey, what's the deal with

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Speaker 2: turkeys here? Could you give us a quick Hey they

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Speaker 2: started here, this happened, this happened, and now we are here.

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Speaker 2: If you had to broadly summarize that trajectory.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 4: So I mean turkeys followed a trajectory that a lot

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Speaker 4: of game and wildlife species followed. After colonization, you know,

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Speaker 4: populations were largely decimated. The bird was extirpated from much

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Speaker 4: of its historic range. And then in the after World

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Speaker 4: War two, and particularly as you started getting closer to

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Speaker 4: the sixties and seventies, you started seeing restoration efforts that

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Speaker 4: largely failed at the start, but then really kind of

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Speaker 4: accelerated in the nineteen seventies, eighties, and nineties, and turkey

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Speaker 4: populations were restored across their historic range and even into

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Speaker 4: areas where turkeys were never historically present. And so now

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Speaker 4: there are wild turkeys and forty nine of the fifty

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Speaker 4: US states, and they're in multiple other countries overseas as well.

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Speaker 4: And then although things looked really good. The last thirty

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Speaker 4: seconds of that three minute synopsis is around two thousand

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Speaker 4: and five to ten, we started documenting fairly large scale

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Speaker 4: declines and turkey populations. At first, it looked like it

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Speaker 4: was restricted to the south and east, and as more

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Speaker 4: research was conducted, it appears that those declines are much

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Speaker 4: more widespread in occurring across much of the Midwest and beyond.

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Speaker 4: So that is now kind of where we are today

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Speaker 4: with this kind of pulse of turkey research that's out

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Speaker 4: there trying to understand how to mitigate these declines.

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Speaker 2: So before we get into that last part the recent declines,

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Speaker 2: I want to zoom in a little bit on that

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Speaker 2: recovery phase. And I actually did have done a little

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Speaker 2: bit of writing on this on another project as I

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Speaker 2: was kind of thinking through the many different examples of

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Speaker 2: this kind of mid twentieth century recovery of many wildlife

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Speaker 2: species that got pretty close to some serious, serious trouble.

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Speaker 2: And the turkey story is a really interesting one because

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Speaker 2: it wasn't just like there was one major legislative victory

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Speaker 2: that saved them, right. It wasn't like you know, market

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Speaker 2: hunting of bison, you know, being outlawed and then all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden there was an opportunity for them, for

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Speaker 2: them to come back. It was something that was much more,

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Speaker 2: at least seemingly much more driven by people, regular people

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Speaker 2: who volunteered their time or join an organization to do

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Speaker 2: these trap and transfer programs and all that. Could you

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Speaker 2: share a little bit more about what that looked like,

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Speaker 2: because that's such an encouraging, hopeful story of what regular

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Speaker 2: people were able to do and maybe could do again.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, turkey restoration was largely driven by turkey hunters and

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Speaker 4: biologists in a number of states who had a passion

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Speaker 4: to hunt turkeys and were dismayed at the lack of

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Speaker 4: opportunity to do that. And so you saw these early

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Speaker 4: efforts by pioneers like you.

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Speaker 3: Know, Wayne Bailey and other.

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Speaker 4: Biologists who figured out how to capture turkeys at scale.

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Speaker 4: In other words, how do you catch a flock of

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Speaker 4: turkey so that you could trap, you know, you could

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Speaker 4: transport them somewhere and release them. And so you really

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Speaker 4: saw this kind of grassroots effort that started, you know,

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Speaker 4: in the back forty with folks who just loved turkeys

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Speaker 4: and wanted to be able to experience hunting those birds

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Speaker 4: and and many of these folks hunted for seasons and

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Speaker 4: never interacted with a turkey. There's stories of people, you know,

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Speaker 4: folks that were involved in restoration, spending an entire season

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Speaker 4: trying to hear a bird to the gobble and yeah,

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Speaker 4: and so you really saw this kind of this upswell

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Speaker 4: in Hey, we figured out how to do this, We

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Speaker 4: figured out how to capture wild birds and move them.

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Speaker 4: And once that occurred, you saw this real explosion in

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Speaker 4: the desire because now there was a way to do

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Speaker 4: it right, there was an opportunity, there was a methodology

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Speaker 4: in place, and then really restoration just exploded once states

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Speaker 4: realized that they could they could trap and transport across

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Speaker 4: state lines by cooperating with the National Wild Turkey Federation,

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Speaker 4: which put in place this system to where there was

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Speaker 4: a restitution cost associated with birds. So in other words,

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Speaker 4: a state could request birds from one state, have those

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Speaker 4: birds brought into their state, and then pay restitution for

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Speaker 4: those birds. And what that allowed was, if you think

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Speaker 4: about it, instead of just trapping turkeys in your state

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Speaker 4: where opportunities may be fairly limited, right, there may only

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Speaker 4: be a small population of birds in a particular state.

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Speaker 4: Now suddenly you could go to five states and get birds.

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Speaker 4: And that's why you saw in the late eighties and

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Speaker 4: early nineties turkey populations just exploded because states were trapping

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Speaker 4: and transporting across lines.

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Speaker 2: Was there anything unique about that era that allowed for

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Speaker 2: that to succeed like it did, whether that be habitat

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Speaker 2: on the ground, or political winds or anything else and

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Speaker 2: social things going on. Is there anything that you can

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Speaker 2: point to that's like, oh, yeah, this is why it

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Speaker 2: actually worked so well. Or was it just this wonderful

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Speaker 2: coincidence that the stars aligned and there was people there

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Speaker 2: willing to do the good work.

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Speaker 4: I think in a lot of ways, it was a

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Speaker 4: perfect storm where you got one. You had, you had

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Speaker 4: habitat characteristics across much of North America that were at

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Speaker 4: the time fundamentally much better for a wild turkeys than

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Speaker 4: they are today. You had turkeys being transported into parts

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Speaker 4: of the landscape where predators were not familiar with them,

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Speaker 4: didn't know that a turkey was a prey item, and

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Speaker 4: in some cases moved into areas that had very low

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Speaker 4: predator abundance.

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Speaker 3: To begin with.

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Speaker 4: And then you also saw situations, if you think about it,

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Speaker 4: where you were kind of genetically mixing up animals and creating.

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Speaker 4: And this is something we're actually studying now is whether

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Speaker 4: this is a good thing or not. But this kind

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Speaker 4: of hybrid vigor right where you're sticking animals that are

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Speaker 4: genetically different from one another together into a landscape and predictably,

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Speaker 4: you know, populations really exploded. And the other thing that

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Speaker 4: think about critically if you're a turkey hunter is that

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Speaker 4: during restoration, hunting was not allowed. So once birds were

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Speaker 4: restored to a state, there was a mandate where hunting

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Speaker 4: could not occur within five years of those restoration efforts.

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Speaker 4: So you really saw turkey populations that were able to

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Speaker 4: function without any type of interference from us. And the

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Speaker 4: result I think was, I mean, it's one of the

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Speaker 4: greatest success stories in conservation history. And I also think

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Speaker 4: that at the time, the fabric of state agencies and

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Speaker 4: the fabric of NWTF and the many people who were

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Speaker 4: involved in the restoration efforts generation they were they were

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Speaker 4: They were turkey hunters first and foremost right they were

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Speaker 4: they were turkey enthusiasts, and they by and large had

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Speaker 4: a passion for the bird and to understand the value

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Speaker 4: of existing with turkeys on the landscape and and having

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Speaker 4: talked with many of those folks who are now retired.

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Speaker 4: That was their life, man, that's that's.

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Speaker 3: What they did.

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Speaker 4: Like my job is to restore turkeys in my state,

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Speaker 4: and they worked an entire career to do that. And

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Speaker 4: and I think that's again, I think it was kind

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Speaker 4: of a perfect storm.

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Speaker 2: Do you do we have those kinds of people still today?

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Speaker 3: Gosh, that's a loaded question.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I think what you see when you look across

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Speaker 4: state agencies and and kind of the wildlife management community,

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Speaker 4: you see a very different fabric than you did back

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Speaker 4: in the nineteen seventies and eighties and nineties. You know, unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: as an educator, I see this in my own institution

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Speaker 4: that most students that come into natural resources university programs

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Speaker 4: are not hunters.

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Speaker 3: Most are not.

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Speaker 4: In fact, a very small percentage are. And so the

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Speaker 4: people that are staffing our state agencies now are just different.

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Speaker 4: And I'm not criticizing them. I'm simply noting that they're

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Speaker 4: their fabric is different than the fabric of many in

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Speaker 4: the nineteen eighties and nineties that drove turkey restoration.

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Speaker 3: Is there.

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Speaker 2: Any possible ripple effects of that that you can foresee?

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Speaker 2: Given that the perspective, the background, the values, the cultural

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Speaker 2: associations that a non hunting wildlife manager might bring to

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Speaker 2: the table could lead to different outcome or or maybe not.

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Speaker 2: Do you do you foresee anything given this you know,

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Speaker 2: natural shift that does seem to be happening.

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent?

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Speaker 4: I mean, if you think about it, decision making at

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Speaker 4: a state agency level that involves people who are not

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Speaker 4: hunters and have don't have the the mindset that a

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Speaker 4: hunter would have, if you, I mean, it doesn't take

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Speaker 4: a rocket scientist to kind of project that out across

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Speaker 4: the next few decades. And that concerns me, and it

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Speaker 4: concerns state agencies. Frankly, I have conversations with with administrators

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Speaker 4: from a number of agencies who are concerned about that,

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Speaker 4: because if you think about the constituents that the political

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Speaker 4: process kind of you know, works towards or works for.

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Speaker 4: If hunters are a very small voice period and we

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Speaker 4: are not actively part of our state agencies because of

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Speaker 4: the people that are graduating from universities and going into

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Speaker 4: agency positions are not hunters, then I think it's logical

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Speaker 4: to think that through time we're going to be underrepresented

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Speaker 4: in a way that maybe we're not thinking about because

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Speaker 4: we typically as hunters look to our state agencies, despite

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Speaker 4: the fact that you know, if you go on Facebook,

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Speaker 4: every state agency is the demon. But you know, we

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Speaker 4: criticize state agencies as hunters, sometimes rightfully so. But but

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Speaker 4: the state agencies are law are lawfully charged with conserving

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Speaker 4: sustainable natural resources, right and and many of those resources

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Speaker 4: are our resources you and I cherish, right, whether it

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Speaker 4: be game or non game. And if you're a hunter

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Speaker 4: and you kind of think about what the future is

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Speaker 4: going to look like in your state, If your agency

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Speaker 4: is staffed people that are not like you, that don't

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Speaker 4: have the same passion that you have, then that should

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Speaker 4: be concerning to you.

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Speaker 2: It is to read between the lines a little bit.

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Speaker 2: How serious do you think the possibility of twenty years

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Speaker 2: from now, thirty years from now, if we have continued

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Speaker 2: declines in Turkey numbers paired with increasing number of managers

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Speaker 2: who don't see the value in turkey hunters and turkey hunting,

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Speaker 2: and they see those two things, that being the health

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Speaker 2: of Turkey populations and participation in turkey hunting as being

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Speaker 2: possibly opposed to each other because of those declines, you know,

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Speaker 2: looking forward to does the future of turkey hunting, actually

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Speaker 2: hunting them seem at risk given that trend.

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Speaker 4: Think where my mind goes mark is, you know, in

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Speaker 4: the in the face of ongoing declines, and and to

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Speaker 4: back up a little bit, you know, turkeys are doing

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Speaker 4: quite well in many areas. It's it's the fact that

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Speaker 4: they're they're struggling in and in kind of.

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Speaker 3: The heart of their range. Right if you really look,

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Speaker 3: the south and.

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Speaker 4: East is the heart of of wild turkey range. And

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Speaker 4: for for populations to really, excuse me, be struggling in

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Speaker 4: many of those states and beyond, causes you pause, and

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Speaker 4: I think where my mind goes is, you know, none

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Speaker 4: of us want lower opportunity, none of us want to

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Speaker 4: to not be able to chase the passion that we

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Speaker 4: you know, I live all year for for right now,

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Speaker 4: for the next two months, I think, I tell my wife,

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Speaker 4: I exist all year for the next two months outside

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Speaker 4: of a few weeks when the rut hits. But I

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Speaker 4: kind of look and I think, Okay, what are my

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Speaker 4: opportunities going to look like in twenty years? Right as

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Speaker 4: I'm on the precipice of my you know, I'm at

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Speaker 4: the very end of my turkey hunting career. What's the

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Speaker 4: opportunity going to look like for me? In other words,

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Speaker 4: what are seasons going to look like? What are are

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Speaker 4: am I going to be hunting under quota systems in

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Speaker 4: most places because there's so much demand for what supply

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Speaker 4: is available. You already see this, as you know, on

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Speaker 4: public lands throughout much of North America. And is that

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Speaker 4: just the future for the wild turkey in many In

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Speaker 4: many situations our quotas if you will, as you're and

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Speaker 4: if you pay attention, if you're a traveling turkey hunter,

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Speaker 4: this is already popping up right. You know, states are

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Speaker 4: limiting non resident access and opportunity as they should because

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Speaker 4: of declining populations. And so is that just the future

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Speaker 4: for me as a turkey hunter where there's going to

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Speaker 4: be this consistent kind of this decline and opportunity because

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Speaker 4: there's so much demand for reduced supply and that that's

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Speaker 4: where That's where my head goes when I when I'm

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Speaker 4: asked that type of question, is is that the reality

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Speaker 4: that I'm going to be looking at and avoiding that

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Speaker 4: reality is part of what gets me up in the morning.

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Speaker 2: So with that in mind, Mike, I guess I want

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Speaker 2: to maybe I've dove into the deep end too quickly,

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Speaker 2: because I do want to get kind of a broad

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Speaker 2: sense of the reality of the situation right now, maybe

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Speaker 2: over the last five years or so, I feel like

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Speaker 2: this whole realization that maybe turkeys aren't doing as well

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Speaker 2: as we once thought. That's that's because I'm in top

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Speaker 2: of mind for a lot of people. But I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure that we have a clear sense of the severity

347
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Speaker 2: of that. I think maybe most people know, oh, there's

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Speaker 2: there's some places the turkeys are kind of not like

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Speaker 2: they used to be. But do you have a sense

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Speaker 2: or could you give us a sense of if this

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Speaker 2: is like a I guess on a scale of one

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Speaker 2: to ten, ten being this is a five alarm fire,

353
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Speaker 2: the most dire crisis possible, a one being things are amazing,

354
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Speaker 2: they couldn't be better. Where on that scale would you

355
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Speaker 2: rate your sense of concern right now about the state

356
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Speaker 2: of turkeys across America?

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Speaker 4: I think that completely depends on where you are, so

358
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Speaker 4: like if and even within regions, there's such complexity. So

359
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Speaker 4: for instance, if I'm in South Carolina, for instance, where

360
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 4: populations have continued to lag and the state agency has

361
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Speaker 4: tried regulatory changes and the population continues to seemingly decline.

362
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Speaker 4: I'm concerned if I then go to other places where populations, like,

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Speaker 4: for instance, in Louisiana, populations seem to have gotten as

364
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Speaker 4: low as they were going to get and have responded

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Speaker 4: to changes over the last eight years ish.

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Speaker 3: And then I go.

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Speaker 4: To places, you know, in the Upper Midwest, for instance,

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Speaker 4: where populations in some areas appear to be doing quite well.

369
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Speaker 4: You go into areas out west, and turkeys are thriving

370
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Speaker 4: in many places, almost to the point of overabundance in

371
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Speaker 4: some situations. And I think it just speaks to how

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Speaker 4: complex the turkey world is, if you will, and really,

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Speaker 4: you know, I kind of when I'm asked this at

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Speaker 4: a kind of a broad scale, I talk to people

375
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Speaker 4: that particular state that are like, what are you talking

376
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Speaker 4: about turkey problem?

377
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Speaker 3: Like I got turkeys.

378
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Speaker 4: Running out of my ears, you know, And I'll be like, yeah,

379
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Speaker 4: and counter blessings because I can take you right down

380
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 4: the street here and drive you through a county that

381
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 4: ten years ago you could ed to sew turkeys all

382
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Speaker 4: the time, and you don't see birds anymore.

383
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Speaker 3: They're just not there.

384
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Speaker 4: And if you look at you know, many places in

385
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Speaker 4: North America. That is a common refrain. That's a common

386
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 4: thing you hear, or what I hear a lot is

387
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Speaker 4: you know, I had a bunch of turkeys around two

388
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Speaker 4: thousand and five, and man, I still see turkeys, but

389
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 4: not like I used to. That's the common theme that

390
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 4: I hear, and so the severity of that equation just

391
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Speaker 4: differs from one point to the next.

392
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Speaker 2: Yeah, did I see. I believe the number I saw

393
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Speaker 2: was that the turkey harvest in Georgia has declined by

394
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Speaker 2: something like seventy five percent over I can't remember what

395
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 2: the time spend was, but does that trend sound accurate

396
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: for some of those South Southeastern states?

397
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Speaker 4: Yeah, many Southeastern states have seen well over a fifty

398
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 4: percent decline in harvest, some sixty plus percent, and that

399
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 4: you know, if you think about it this way, twenty

400
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 4: years ago, I could go turkey hunting on public ground

401
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 4: and rarely I could go an entire day and never

402
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 4: bump into another hunter. I could go to a least

403
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 4: property that I was a part of and there were

404
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 4: no other members there, you know.

405
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Speaker 3: And now it's.

406
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Speaker 4: A challenge to go find a public ground that is

407
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Speaker 4: not being hunted, and competition for least property is keen,

408
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 4: and so there's so much interest around turkeys, as there

409
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 4: should be. They're an incredible spaces to hunt and.

410
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 3: And what's not to love.

411
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 4: But if you kind of think about the world of

412
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 4: harvest and you think what's changed in the last twenty

413
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 4: years for harvest to be declining, speaks volumes about kind

414
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 4: of where things stand. Because you know, some will argue, well,

415
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 4: harvest is just an indicator of hunter activity, and that's

416
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 4: largely in some ways true. But if you have increasing

417
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 4: interest and increasing participation and decreasing harvest, the math doesn't

418
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 4: add up, right. That suggests a subli and demand issue.

419
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 4: And that's kind of what I was saying earlier. That's

420
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Speaker 4: what kind of gets me up in the morning, is like, Okay,

421
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 4: I don't want to see a world where we are

422
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 4: dealing with these constant like quota caps, you know, limits,

423
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 4: that that that type of thing, because that that's a

424
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 4: that's a world where the opportunity to chase this this

425
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 4: passion and you know, is going to be reduced.

426
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 2: I've heard you explain my area, you answer my next question.

427
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 3: Let me let me phrase this.

428
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 2: The natural question after hearing all this is is why

429
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: why is this happening. Right, You've been asked that question

430
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 2: a thousand times and it is a complex answer. I recognize,

431
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: and I've heard you once explain it with the analogy

432
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: of a football team kind of being representative of the

433
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 2: interconnected variables that impact Turkey health and populations. Could you

434
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 2: could you answer that question for me? Could you help

435
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 2: us understand why these things are happening and maybe use

436
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 2: that football analogy because I found that so helpful.

437
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,239
Speaker 4: That's the that's the way I can think about it

438
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,479
Speaker 4: that makes sense to me. Is like every year in

439
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 4: every spot, the Turkey population is like football game where

440
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 4: your local population has influenced All the positions that are

441
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 4: on the field can influence the outcome. But every single year,

442
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 4: in every single location, there's certain positions that influence every outcome, habitat, predation, harvest, etc.

443
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 3: But then in.

444
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 4: One particular area, you may have a position on the

445
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 4: field that disproportionately impacts the game this year that doesn't

446
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 4: impact the game in a subsequent year. Severe drought, very

447
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 4: very wet two week period when hens are starting to

448
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 4: hatch polts and you see this decline in productivity. Those

449
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 4: types of things that you can't really predict you can't anticipate.

450
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 4: And then the kind of sinister positions. You know, if

451
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 4: you think about a football game, offensive line always impacts

452
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 4: the outcome of every game, right quarterback plays, you know,

453
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 4: the super important positions, Well, those would be your habitat

454
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 4: and your predator communities, and those two are kind of

455
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 4: intertwined everywhere you go. So that's the way I think

456
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 4: about it. And then when I think about, Okay, so

457
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 4: why is this happening? I mean, I don't think any

458
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 4: informed person would ever argue that habitat is not the

459
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 4: driving force that's impacting turkey populations above everything else. I

460
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 4: don't think any logical person would argue that that in

461
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 4: most places, habitat has changed quite a bit in the

462
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 4: last few decades.

463
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 3: Now.

464
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 4: Of course, you and I we can go to places

465
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 4: that damn near don't look anything different twenty years ago.

466
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 4: They look just like they look now. But if you

467
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 4: go east of the Mississippi in particular, and you look

468
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 4: at the landscape now compared to what it looked like before,

469
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 4: you are going to see dramatic losses of hardwood forest,

470
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 4: which are particularly important for turkeys, one because they provide

471
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 4: hard masks in the winter, but two. They're also important

472
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 4: for brooding brood hens. If you think about it, if

473
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 4: you go in and take hardwood forest and you replace

474
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,719
Speaker 4: them with something else, and you undermine that food resource,

475
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 4: it's not just well they have to go eat something else.

476
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 4: That's a fundamental problem because acorns built fat, and fat

477
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 4: makes hens more productive in the spring, and so in

478
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 4: the bird world, being big and fat is good. And

479
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 4: so if you take turkeys, if you think about it,

480
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 4: if you take hundreds of thousands of acres of hardwoods

481
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 4: and you remove them and replace them with something else,

482
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 4: that's a problem. At the same time, if you look

483
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 4: at much of the United States now compared to a

484
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 4: few decades ago, you're going to see that.

485
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 3: It's fragmented, right.

486
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 4: We we we cut the landscape up into little pieces,

487
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 4: and those little pieces are easier for predators that eat

488
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 4: turkeys and their nests to hunt and so habitat and

489
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 4: predation to me, you can't they're in they're the same

490
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 4: like they're they're they're interacting with one another to influence turkeys.

491
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 4: And then you you tack in, you know, disease issues,

492
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 4: which we we don't see situations with turkeys dying in

493
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 4: masts right, like you'd see with waterfowl. But we we

494
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 4: know that turkeys have diseases, and some of those diseases

495
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 4: kill birds.

496
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 3: Uh.

497
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 4: And then you you tack in, you know, go out

498
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 4: well out in the Midwest and look at agricultural practices

499
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,959
Speaker 4: and how they've changed in the last few decades, and

500
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 4: how the availability of waste green is going to be

501
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 4: much less now because of how efficient harvesting practices are

502
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 4: and and how mechanized agriculture is. And I guess my

503
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 4: point is if you just start, if you sit back

504
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 4: and start in your area, start kind of picking apart

505
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 4: what's different now. It doesn't have to be something that's

506
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 4: so different than it smacks you in the face. It

507
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 4: could be something that just slowly erodes the landscape. And

508
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 4: that's kind of consistent with what we've seen with these

509
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 4: declines is they were not very rapid. They were very

510
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 4: very slow. It took us twenty years to get where

511
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 4: we are, and in a lot of ways it happened

512
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 4: right under our noses.

513
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's that idea of shifting baseline syndrome.

514
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 3: Right.

515
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 2: We become used to a new normal and then that

516
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 2: becomes our baseline and we forget about what that old

517
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: baseline used to be twenty years ago or forty years ago.

518
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: Many of us never knew what it was like forty

519
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: years ago, so we have nothing else to compare it against.

520
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, if you were to take a snapshot of

521
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 2: our world today and compare it to what that landscape

522
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 2: looked like twenty years ago.

523
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 3: It's people, it's unbelievable.

524
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I talk with younger turkey hunters a lot

525
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 4: about this is, you know, if you're in your twenties

526
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 4: or your thirties, I mean, I'm fifty four, I've been

527
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 4: I started hunting turkeys as a teenager, and I saw

528
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 4: literally population restoration.

529
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: But right before my eyes.

530
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 4: I mean when I started turkey hunting, if you went

531
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 4: and killed a bird in the spring, you were you

532
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 4: were doing something.

533
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 3: And then I went.

534
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 4: Through a period where there were so many turkeys on

535
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 4: places I went, even public ground, that you were paralyzed.

536
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 3: You didn't know which direction to.

537
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 4: Head at, you know, a half hour before sunrise, a

538
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 4: little in every direction.

539
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 3: It's like, this is unbelievable.

540
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 4: And now I've seen those declines, and I've seen the

541
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 4: landscape change in my lifetime, and to your point, those

542
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 4: changes in a lot of cases, they reset your kind

543
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 4: of your normal, Right, And now I go to places

544
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 4: that I hunted when I was, say twenty five, and

545
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 4: I don't even recognize those places. And that happened right

546
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 4: in front of me, And at the time, it didn't

547
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 4: seem that big of a deal. Right, It's like the

548
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 4: ten years it took for that to happen, or the

549
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 4: thirty years it took that for that to happen didn't

550
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 4: smack me in the face like it does now now

551
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 4: I see it. And that's just kind of the way

552
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 4: human humans function, you know.

553
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it is. It's hard sometimes to recognize what

554
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 2: you were just sharing there, which is like the slow

555
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 2: accumulation of habitat change and loss and fragmentation. But it's

556
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: really easy for us to point a finger at competition, right.

557
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 2: It makes common sense that if that raccoon or that

558
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: coyote is eating eggs or eating my turkeys, then I'm

559
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: gonna have fewer turkeys to kill. Right. Why is it

560
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: that you say that predators in their impact are directly

561
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 2: tied to habitat That connection seems possibly a little bit

562
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 2: harder to make. Could you help us understand that?

563
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, what I'm saying there is is in a lot

564
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 4: of ways we have created situations that benefit a predator

565
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 4: versus a turkey.

566
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 3: So if you if you if.

567
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 4: You take a you know, take some of the big

568
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 4: egg eaters, rat snakes, raccoons, you know, species that even

569
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 4: coyotes that are good egg raiders. They you know, if

570
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 4: you're a raccoon or a coyote, you're you're hunting with

571
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 4: your nose and you're using a combination of queues, your eyesight,

572
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 4: you're hearing your nose to bounce around through the environment.

573
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 4: And if you can get on something that's linear, like

574
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 4: a road or right of way or something that allows

575
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 4: you to efficiently traverse your range, you can be more successful.

576
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 4: You can hunt bigger ground, you can and particularly we

577
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 4: see this with raccoons is they are so intensive in

578
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 4: how they function as a predator.

579
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 3: They just course.

580
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 4: Over and over and over through places, and so they

581
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 4: are going to find a nest if it's there, right,

582
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 4: if it's there, if it's in the core of their

583
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 4: activity areas, they're going to find it. And so if

584
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 4: you kind of think about that and you say, okay,

585
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 4: I'm going to take these big chunks of habitat and

586
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 4: split them up into ten smaller chunks that may not

587
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 4: seem like a big deal to us because we're just

588
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 4: looking at it. It's green vegetation, it's forced, it's but

589
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 4: every time you split it into sections where a predator

590
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 4: can more effectively course it, they are going to be

591
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 4: more effective in general. And so that's what I'm saying

592
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 4: is in a lot of ways, the habitat issues that

593
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 4: we're that we're seeing are kind of predisposing turkeys to

594
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 4: dealing with predation rates.

595
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 3: And the other thing I.

596
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 4: Would say is on the flip side, there's a large

597
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 4: body of research showing that you can mitigate predation through

598
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 4: wise habitat management. You know, a prime example in my

599
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 4: area would be my own research showing that when you

600
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 4: conduct prescribe burns, you fundamentally change how coyotes and raccoons

601
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 4: use areas that are prescribed burned because you're essentially creating

602
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 4: a vegetative community that's not as conducive to their foraging efficiency.

603
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 4: So by burning these these stands, you're causing predators to

604
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 4: have to shift their centers of activity, and in so doing,

605
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 4: you can correspondingly, you know, increase turkey success because you're

606
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 4: changing how predators are distributed.

607
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 2: So someone listening to this right now might be thinking,

608
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 2: all right, I want to try to improve the situation

609
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 2: for turkeys in my area, and I only have so

610
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: much time and so money resources, and I'm thinking about

611
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 2: how best to use my time. If you had, if

612
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 2: you were forced to choose, and if you were forced

613
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: to pick between investing time and energy and resources into

614
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 2: directly addressing predation by way of trapping and hunting, or

615
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: by investing your time, energy and resources into improving habitat.

616
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 2: I think I know the answer, But which would you choose?

617
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 4: I mean, ideally I choose both. I'll always answer this

618
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 4: the same way. It really depends on what you can

619
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 4: control or what you can influence on at scale. Right,

620
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 4: And so if you're thinking about a while turkey, you

621
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 4: have to understand that their home rangers are quite large, right,

622
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 4: if you're in the eastern United States or up into

623
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 4: the upper Midwest where you are, I mean, you're talking

624
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 4: birds that use thousands of acres in their annual cycle.

625
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 4: And then if you go out west and you look

626
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 4: at you know, subspecies like merriams, they may move ten

627
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 4: to fifteen twenty miles between their winter range and their

628
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 4: their spring breeding range. So you've got an area that

629
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 4: you got an animal uses a lot of area, right,

630
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 4: and so that's kind of how I approach the answer

631
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 4: to this question. Okay, if you're impacting turkeys at scale,

632
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 4: at a fairly large scale, then I'm always going to

633
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 4: start with habitat if I can. As you scale down,

634
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 4: you just have to understand that your expectation needs to

635
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 4: be kind of predicated on the fact that you're influencing.

636
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 4: You know, if you're managing ten acres or twenty acres

637
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 4: or fifty acres, you're influencing a small part of that

638
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 4: animal's home range. So you just have to be you know,

639
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,760
Speaker 4: your expectations have to be couched in that. The same

640
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 4: goes with predators, exact same scenario. If you're if you're

641
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:14,439
Speaker 4: capable of influencing predator abundance and distribution and activity at

642
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,879
Speaker 4: a larger spatial scale, then you would expect to have

643
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 4: more impact on your local population than if you were

644
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 4: trapping a ten acre you know, wood lot in the

645
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 4: back forty if you will. And the other thing that's

646
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 4: important to understand with predators is that there are a

647
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 4: lot of predators that influence turkeys and some of those

648
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 4: predators can't you can't legally manage right, and so that's

649
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 4: just that's an important reason for me. I'm trying to

650
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 4: do both if I can. If I can influence habitat

651
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 4: and predators, I'm going to do that. If I can't

652
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 4: touch habitat right, I have no ability to do anything

653
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 4: with the habitat and the property that I have access to.

654
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 4: If you're interested in managing predators, I encourage people to

655
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 4: do it.

656
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 3: I mean, try it.

657
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 4: If you've ever trapped, you realize that that's an incredibly

658
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 4: rewarding activity. It causes you attention to detail, and it

659
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 4: puts you out in the woods at a time when

660
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 4: otherwise you may not be out there, and all of

661
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 4: that's good. Just be realistic in your expectations. That's the

662
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 4: way I answer that.

663
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: On the habitat side, I feel like this is one

664
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 2: where there's a lot of tailwinds, at least for those

665
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 2: people that own or lease land already for hunting, because

666
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 2: there's there's been so much energy and education in managing

667
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: habitat within the white tail world, improving habitat in these lands,

668
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 2: and I'm curious if there is any conflict between the

669
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 2: typical practices that are discussed and recommended for whitetail habitat

670
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,720
Speaker 2: management versus what's best for turkeys. So with the typical

671
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: guy who's been trying to make his property better for

672
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 2: deer hunting, is that guy helping turkeys too, or do

673
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: we need to consider some alternatives or adjusting our approach

674
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,399
Speaker 2: if we really want to address the turkey issues too.

675
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, in a lot of ways they're compatible. You know,

676
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 4: managing for deer and turkeys are compatible in a lot

677
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 4: of ways, but not all. And one fundamental difference that

678
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 4: I think hunters need to understand is that, you know, whitetails,

679
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 4: when they're threatened, they want to run a short distance

680
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 4: and stop and hide. And so as a deer hunter,

681
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 4: we're thinking betting cover, security, cover juxtaposed to foraging areas. Right,

682
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 4: We're we're thinking, Okay, I'm going I can catch this

683
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 4: buck coming from his bedding area to where he's going

684
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 4: to feed, or we're thinking, you know, transitions between vegetative communities,

685
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 4: and so we're kind of thinking, like, you know, a deer,

686
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 4: but in the turkey world, you have to understand they

687
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:27,240
Speaker 4: need to see and then be able to run, right

688
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 4: and their last escape mechanism is flight. They don't really

689
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 4: want to fly. And the reason is very simple and

690
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 4: we don't have to go into it. But turkeys are

691
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 4: a big bird and they have a high amount of wingloading,

692
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,280
Speaker 4: which means their wings are not very proportionate to their bodies.

693
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 4: So they're not designed to fly. They're designed to sail.

694
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 4: And so turkeys need to be able to see. So

695
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 4: if you're thinking about, you know, a forage plot for instance,

696
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 4: and I'm thinking, as deer hunter boy, i want it

697
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 4: thick right up to the edge, right because that joker

698
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 4: is going to pop out there and he's right on me,

699
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 4: he's dead. For a turkey, I want that bird to

700
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 4: stand in that plot and be able to see up

701
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,879
Speaker 4: into the surrounding forest. And so what I encourage landowners

702
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 4: that I interact with if you want both, there are

703
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 4: ways to do both. You just have to be very

704
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 4: surgical in how you plant it. So, for instance, if

705
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 4: I'm looking at a food plot that I've planted or

706
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 4: a foraging area where I'm trying to attract deer and

707
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 4: i want turkeys to also kind of be attracted to it,

708
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 4: I'm managing at least one part of that forest surrounding

709
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 4: that plot to be open, right, so birds can see.

710
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 4: And I'm trying to get intel, if you will, on

711
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 4: how are birds accessing this plot, where are they coming from, where.

712
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 3: They when they leave, where do they go?

713
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 4: And then I'm trying to set up a very surgical

714
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 4: management scenario for literally every part of that property so

715
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 4: that I can optimize the attractiveness for white tails but

716
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 4: also give my birds the ability to see.

717
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 2: So you mentioned this open hardwoods kind of habitat, which,

718
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 2: to your point, is sometimes something that deer hunters don't want.

719
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 2: It looks nice, but white tails don't always love to

720
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 2: spend a lot of time in it. But what about

721
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: nesting and poulting habitat. That's something that you know, seems

722
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: like it's very important for turkey productivity as well. Can

723
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 2: you help me understand what that looks like and why

724
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 2: that's important and how somebody might build to create that.

725
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean nesting habitat is you know, it's variable

726
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 4: and I'm not going to say it depends, but it

727
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 4: really does. I mean Turkey's nest and all kinds of stuff. Right,

728
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,720
Speaker 4: So if I took you to the two thousand nests

729
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 4: that we've you know that we've looked at over the

730
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 4: last however many years from GPS marked birds. You would

731
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 4: kind of as a hunter outdoorsman, you would at some

732
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 4: point you go, okay, I see a little bit of

733
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 4: commonality from one spot to the next.

734
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 3: But not a lot.

735
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 4: And it's because hens are highly variable and how they

736
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 4: how they choose to put a nest at a particular spot,

737
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 4: and so some nests are really thick and dense like

738
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 4: you would think white tail bedding cover, but many nest

739
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 4: are in places that are wide open, and the common

740
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 4: theme seems to only be she thinks she's hidden when

741
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 4: she's sitting right here.

742
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 3: That that's the common theme. And so my point is

743
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 3: turkeys will nest in a in.

744
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 4: A wide array of different vegetative communities, but be thinking

745
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 4: of about it needs to be dense enough at ground level,

746
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 4: say knee and below, that she can.

747
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 3: Hide in it right and not be seen.

748
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:16,479
Speaker 4: And it also needs to provide some overhead cover so

749
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 4: that aerial predators can't see her as well. And that's

750
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 4: kind of what we see. Most nests are up against

751
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 4: something a shrub, a bush, a log, a stump, something,

752
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 4: and there's some type of cover around her that she

753
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 4: feels she can hide in. But when you get to

754
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 4: brood habitat, it completely flip flops. The first couple of weeks,

755
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 4: they're a few inches tall and they're hatching, right, They're tiny.

756
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 4: They need bare ground, they need overhead cover. So if

757
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,439
Speaker 4: you think about places where you would walk where you're

758
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 4: kind of you're kind of pushing things at knee height

759
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 4: out of your way. Yet you're not tripping up on vegetation.

760
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 4: It's not a mat of grass on the ground. You're

761
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 4: walking freely, but you're just having to kind of brush

762
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 4: some things aside. That's kind of an early brood cover.

763
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 4: I tell I give people this analogy. Just lay down

764
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 4: on your stomach and if you can see out in

765
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 4: front of you, then they can too, right, And then

766
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 4: if you hop up on a knee and you look around,

767
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 4: if you can see, then the hen can see as well.

768
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 3: So that that's.

769
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 4: Early brood cover. Looks completely different than nesting cover, Like

770
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 4: they're completely different. But then what you start seeing is

771
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 4: when broods get older, about the time you and I

772
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 4: start seeing them, right, they're chicken size. They're out in fields.

773
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 4: The reason they're out in those fields and pastures and

774
00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:00,439
Speaker 4: more open and grassland type areas is because they can fly.

775
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 4: And so once they get to that stage, that's when

776
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 4: we start seeing them in open fields and areas like that,

777
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 4: and at that point their survival is much higher. And

778
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 4: so my point is you literally go from I need

779
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 4: to hide in plain sight to I need to see.

780
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,800
Speaker 3: Right and then.

781
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 4: As I get two three weeks old, now I can

782
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 4: use a lot of different things, and so I'll go

783
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 4: out in the open where I'm visible because I can

784
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 4: use those vegetative communities and escape risk because.

785
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 3: I can fly.

786
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 2: So there's all these different ways that we can, on

787
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 2: an individual basis try to create this kind of habitat

788
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 2: in the landscapes that we own or lease or manage,

789
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 2: whatever it might be. Is there anything broader, more scalable,

790
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 2: like at a state level or or federal policy level

791
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 2: or anything like that that could help us with this

792
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 2: habitat side of the challenge. I don't know. Is there

793
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 2: something in the farm bill that we if we could

794
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 2: just get this across the line or anything else that

795
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 2: at a broader scale could help with these habitat challenges

796
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 2: we have across Turkey.

797
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 4: Habitat Yeah, I think you know, from a and some

798
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 4: of this this is ongoing with other you know, related

799
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 4: to other species and or landscape types, but farm bill

800
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 4: programs that provide financial incentives for landowners, cost share type programs,

801
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 4: things that are going to allow us to be able

802
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 4: to implement changes and not have to cover all the costs.

803
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 4: To be honest with you, Mark, I see a lot

804
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 4: of a lot of the landowners that I interact with

805
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 4: don't even know that such things exist, right, And so

806
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 4: you will go to some states and talk to local

807
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:09,839
Speaker 4: whether it's Natural Resources Conservation Service or or other agencies.

808
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 4: You'll talk to their staff and there's in some cases

809
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 4: very little interest in using call share programs from landowners

810
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 4: in that area. And of course you go to some

811
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 4: areas and that's it's the reverse. But I think continuing

812
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 4: to explore options that incentivize us to manage our properties

813
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 4: wisely and to implement practices that are going to ensure

814
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 4: early successional vegetation communities. Early succession that you know, turkeys,

815
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 4: their ability to see means that there's early successional habitat there,

816
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:51,280
Speaker 4: and so anything that's going to incentivize us to manage

817
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 4: our properties in ways that sustain early successional vegetation I

818
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 4: think are going to be critical to the future of

819
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 4: this bird and many many other species that thrive in

820
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 4: those same those same habitat types.

821
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to kind of take that and then

822
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 2: circle back to somewhere towards the beginning where we started.

823
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 2: Habitat in many ways regulates the potential productivity for a

824
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: population of animals, right, And I've heard you make comments

825
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 2: somewhat to the effect of the fact that in some

826
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:32,359
Speaker 2: places sometimes we might be hunting with a either set

827
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 2: of regulations or with an effectiveness because of our technology

828
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 2: or whatever might be that might be above and beyond

829
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 2: what habitat can support today. Is that Is that an

830
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: accurate representation of of of how you feel and your

831
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 2: concerns about this kind of third leg of the stool.

832
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 2: If habitat and predation are these two big ones, I

833
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 2: think you mentioned harvest being that third major leg. Can

834
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 2: you can you expand on that a little bit?

835
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would just say, you know, the relative impact

836
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 4: that harvest would have on a population, obviously is going

837
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 4: to vary from spot to spot, county to county, state

838
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 4: to state, etc. I think in the Turkey world you

839
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 4: have to recognize that turkeys are very unique and that

840
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 4: we hunt them during their breeding season. In the game

841
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 4: bird world, that is not the norm. So if you

842
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,919
Speaker 4: were to think about it, let's say, as a waterfowl hunter,

843
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 4: if I told you to go to the prairies and

844
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 4: hunt mallards in May, right, that would be the analogy.

845
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 3: You wouldn't even consider doing that.

846
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 4: So you just have to understand that we are hunting

847
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 4: wild turkeys in the spring while they're breeding, and in

848
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 4: many cases early in their breeding period, and throughout their

849
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 4: entire breeding period, depending on the state that you're in.

850
00:53:56,360 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 4: In some states, you can start hunting in early reading

851
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 4: and hunt the entire breeding season, you know, so the

852
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 4: season encompasses the entire breeding season.

853
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 3: And because of that, you know.

854
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 4: We've known for many decades that harvest for this bird matters, right,

855
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:17,240
Speaker 4: the timing and rate of harvest matters at a very

856
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 4: low rate, Like you're killing a really small percentage of

857
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 4: your males. May probably doesn't matter when you kill the bird,

858
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,399
Speaker 4: but if you're going into a population and taking out

859
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 4: a significant percentage of your males every year, and you're

860
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 4: doing that early in the breeding period, then logically, at

861
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 4: some point, as populations decline, It doesn't to me, doesn't

862
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 4: seem logical to think that you can continue to do that.

863
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 4: If you're producing fewer birds, then you're going to have

864
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,879
Speaker 4: to take fewer birds. And that's like we were talking

865
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 4: about earlier, with the harvest in many states declining the

866
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 4: way it has that, you know that that shows me

867
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 4: that we have you know, we have an issue when

868
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 4: our harvest is declining by fifty plus percent. And something

869
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 4: you and I talked about before we started is, you know, okay,

870
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 4: what do we look like ten years from now, twenty

871
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 4: years from now, fifty years from now. And when I

872
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:23,439
Speaker 4: look at North America and I see the world through

873
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:25,760
Speaker 4: my lens, which is a turkey hunter and a scientist,

874
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 4: and I'm trying to think about what the future looks

875
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 4: like for me, we just can't produce the number of

876
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 4: turkeys that we used to produce. And we're never going

877
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 4: to produce the number of birds that we did twenty

878
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 4: years ago. And the reason for that, irrespective of harvest

879
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 4: or any seasons or bag limits or anything, the landscape

880
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:52,439
Speaker 4: in North America in many areas just can't it can't

881
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 4: produce that many birds. And the reason is, like all

882
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 4: these things we've talked about. I mean, all the changes

883
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 4: to have TAD and everything that's ongoing competing land uses

884
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 4: in North America are incredible. And if you're a traveling

885
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,280
Speaker 4: turkey hunter and you go places like, for instance, Florida,

886
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 4: go to Florida and look at what is happening in

887
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 4: the state of Florida. Literally, that state is imploding on

888
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 4: itself from from coast to coast towards the center. It's

889
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 4: imploding on itself. And if you're a wild turkey living

890
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 4: in Florida, a local population, you're not going to be

891
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,919
Speaker 4: able to function the same as you did twenty years ago.

892
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 3: I mean that should be to me, is common.

893
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 4: Sense that if you've got a shrinking land base, then

894
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 4: turkey populations are not going to be able to sustain

895
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 4: themselves at the levels.

896
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 3: That they did.

897
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 4: And so is that going to require us to change

898
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 4: the way we behave as hunters. I think logically the

899
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:55,720
Speaker 4: answer is yes.

900
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 2: Over the last five years or so, give or take,

901
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 2: there has been a tremendous amount of conversation around that

902
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 2: question of how, how does our behavior as hunters need

903
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:15,240
Speaker 2: to change? How should regulations possibly change, or season timing

904
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 2: or length change, or you know, practices like reaping or

905
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 2: using certain kinds of loads or whatever it might be.

906
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 2: There's there's all sorts of kind of internal discussion around

907
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 2: this within the Turkey hunting community. What of all of

908
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 2: these possible changes that have been debated and discussed at

909
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 2: you know, in bars and on message boards and everywhere,

910
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,919
Speaker 2: what actually could make a difference And which of these

911
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 2: things are just you know, verbal sparring that that really

912
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 2: maybe aren't actually impactful.

913
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

914
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 4: I mean, if you, if you kind of look at

915
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 4: this from the standpoint of the state agencies, and I'm

916
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 4: not speaking on their behalf, if I'm simply explaining to

917
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 4: the listener how regulations work, agencies are going to be

918
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 4: very reticent to try to you know, trying to change

919
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 4: the ammunition we shoot or those types of things. That's

920
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 4: just that that's not going to sell.

921
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 3: Right.

922
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 4: You have some states that have prohibited, you know, certain

923
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 4: practices like fanning or reaping, or the use of decoys

924
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 4: or whatever the case may be. At the end of

925
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 4: the day, none of that matters unless it impacts the

926
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 4: timing and rate of harvest.

927
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 3: Okay.

928
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 4: And what I mean by that is if you change

929
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 4: something and it doesn't change the percentage of males that

930
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 4: are removed, and when they're removed, then why who cares? Right,

931
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 4: That's what agencies are trying to influence. They're trying to

932
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 4: influence when birds are shot and what percentage your shot

933
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 4: under the recognition that they're trying to minimize in some state,

934
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 4: trying to minimize extensive, intensive early harvest.

935
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 3: Okay, And the reason.

936
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 4: They're trying to do that is just this recognition, which

937
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 4: we know most turkeys are going to die the first

938
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 4: couple weeks of the season in many states, regardless of

939
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 4: when the season opens. And that's because right we're engaging

940
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 4: with birds, they're not educated as well. We harvest whatever

941
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 4: we're going to harvest, and then as the season progresses,

942
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 4: harvest declines dramatically, and then by the time it gets

943
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 4: warm in some places, or your kids start playing ball,

944
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 4: or you start fishing or whatever it.

945
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 3: Is, we don't pay attention anymore.

946
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 4: And so what agencies are trying to control is when

947
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 4: the bird is dying and what percentages die. What they're

948
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 4: going to change to do that is they're going to

949
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 4: try to regulate bag limits, They're going to try to

950
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 4: regulate the timing of the season and they're going to

951
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 4: limit opportunity, right, They're trying to change our opportunity to

952
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 4: be out there, because opportunity kills. If you give turkey

953
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 4: hunters more opportunity, they're.

954
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 3: Going to be successful.

955
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 4: And so, whether you like it or love it, and

956
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 4: I don't think any of us like being told we can't,

957
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 4: we can't do something the way that we're used to

958
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 4: doing it. But whether you like it or not, that's

959
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 4: what they're trying to do. They're trying they're trying to

960
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 4: change the one thing they can control at a state level.

961
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 4: They're trying to change that in hopes that it will

962
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 4: mitigate some of these issues that have been observed in

963
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 4: some states.

964
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 3: And so that's that's why you see the.

965
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 4: Changes to regulations and maybe not some of the other things.

966
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:50,919
Speaker 3: That are at practice.

967
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 2: So to the turkey hunter who sees their state possibly

968
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 2: change those season dates or bag limits or something and

969
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 2: they're toed off about it, what do you say to

970
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 2: that guy or girl, whether it be about the value

971
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 2: of making that change or the efficacy of that change,

972
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 2: how would you respond when Bill or Betty says this

973
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 2: is bullshit, I'm not doing this, or this is ridiculous.

974
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, The first thing I say is I want thousand

975
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 4: percent get it, like I understand, I mean, regulation changes

976
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 4: are contentious. Again, I don't want you to tell me

977
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 4: that the last ten years, I've been doing this thing

978
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 4: that I live to do all year, and now suddenly

979
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 4: I have to do it differently. And I don't want

980
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 4: you to tell me that. You know, I'm used to

981
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 4: starting this thing that I cherish on this date, and

982
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 4: now suddenly I have to stop doing that. I have

983
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 4: to do it a week later, or two weeks later,

984
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:55,440
Speaker 4: whatever it is. I don't like it, So I get that.

985
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,120
Speaker 4: The other thing that I think creates real challenges for

986
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 4: for US hunters.

987
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 3: Is that states make these changes.

988
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 4: And you have to understand that there are that these

989
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 4: changes in many ways end up being politically driven and

990
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 4: not framed around biology. And I'll give you an example

991
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 4: hypothetical that you can apply to many states. The state

992
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 4: Wildlife the biological staff will make a recommendation to the Commission,

993
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 4: for instance, in a particular state, and say we recommend

994
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 4: based on the science that the season open here, that

995
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 4: the bag limits be this, et cetera. Okay, they then

996
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 4: they make that change, but they don't they can enact

997
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 4: to that change, that the regulation that ends up being

998
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 4: put into place is then going to be tweaked in

999
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 4: the political process, and so what comes out the other

1000
01:02:56,360 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 4: end in many cases is not what was recommended specifically

1001
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 4: by the biological staff. It's some derivation of that, right.

1002
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 4: And so my point there to the listener is just

1003
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 4: because a change was made should not cause you to

1004
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 4: think that that change is going to have an effect

1005
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 4: at a population level.

1006
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:22,360
Speaker 3: Okay.

1007
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 4: So for example, a state delays their season opener for

1008
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 4: a week, I'm just creating, I'm just giving you a

1009
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 4: scenario by a week, and they reduce a bag limit

1010
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 4: by one bird.

1011
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 3: Okay.

1012
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 4: The hunter in US goes, well, see, nothing's happened. That

1013
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 4: shit didn't work. Let's go back to where we were.

1014
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 4: But what you have to understand is the season may

1015
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:54,439
Speaker 4: have opened three weeks before peaks and breeding activity. Right,

1016
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 4: So the one week delay was just window dressing, and

1017
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 4: a percent of hunters in that state, again just hypothetical number,

1018
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:09,720
Speaker 4: don't kill the full bag limit. Okay, So reducing the

1019
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 4: bag by one let's just say, saved five hundred birds

1020
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 4: in a state, and the one week delay shifted the

1021
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 4: harvest from three weeks before peaks and breeding to two

1022
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 4: weeks before peaks and breeding. But like I've already said,

1023
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 4: which the data show this clearly in most states, but

1024
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 4: most of your tims that are going to die are

1025
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 4: still dead in that scenario before you reach peaks and breeding.

1026
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 3: So would you expect that to matter?

1027
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 4: And to me, the answers no, I wouldn't expect it

1028
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 4: to matter. And that you know that creates real challenges

1029
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 4: for us as hunters and as academics because it's like,

1030
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:57,520
Speaker 4: you know, the hunter and us was what did it help?

1031
01:04:58,040 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 3: Did that matter?

1032
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 4: And if the answers well, not really, well, then let's

1033
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 4: go back to the way we were. But you if

1034
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 4: you put your state agency glasses on and they go, well,

1035
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 4: wait a minute, we're charged legally with ensuring sustainability of

1036
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 4: these populations. Were trying to do something that's going to

1037
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:26,040
Speaker 4: mitigate these ongoing declines. And so it puts us as

1038
01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:29,560
Speaker 4: hunters in kind of a conflict with the agencies because

1039
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,960
Speaker 4: they're making a change. We expect something to happen. It

1040
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 4: doesn't happen, and now we're even more skeptical of any

1041
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:42,320
Speaker 4: management action. Really, And so to your original question, when

1042
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 4: that when Bill brings that up. The first thing I

1043
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 4: say is I totally understand, one thousand percent understand, but.

1044
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 2: You would also or would you also ask him to

1045
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 2: have a little bit of understanding for what they're trying

1046
01:05:58,480 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 2: to do and hoping they can achieve.

1047
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:00,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1048
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I also think, and this is me speaking

1049
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 4: as Mike the turkey hunter and Mike the person that

1050
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 4: interacts with state agency administrators, commissioners, and biological staff. I

1051
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 4: think we as hunters are going to have to give

1052
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:28,920
Speaker 4: state agencies enough social license to make changes and be

1053
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 4: patient to see if those changes have any influence on

1054
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:37,480
Speaker 4: the population, because that is what agencies are going to

1055
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:41,560
Speaker 4: try to control harvest. That's the lever they're going to pull,

1056
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 4: whether we like it or not, because we can we

1057
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 4: can scream in a state agency all day long, do

1058
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 4: something about the habitat, do something about the predators. The

1059
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 4: scale at which state agencies are thinking about turkeys is

1060
01:06:56,680 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 4: not on your farm. They're thinking about it at a

1061
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 4: statewide level, and so they're trying to enact things that

1062
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:08,360
Speaker 4: are going to have potential to influence at that scale.

1063
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 3: Okay, and so I.

1064
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 4: Understand the frustration of saying, well, do something about habitat,

1065
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 4: but you have to understand that state agencies don't control most.

1066
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 3: Habitat in any state.

1067
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:24,959
Speaker 4: So at the end of the day, something we talked

1068
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 4: about earlier is private landowners and our willingness to consider

1069
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 4: ways that we can implement practices that can benefit the

1070
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 4: wild turkey. That's going to be key to the future

1071
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:42,640
Speaker 4: of the bird, because agencies are going through time, are

1072
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 4: going to continue to make changes for I mean you,

1073
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 4: if populations respond, you'll see seasons liberalized again. But in

1074
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 4: the face of ongoing declines, what you're seeing is agencies

1075
01:07:56,480 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 4: controlling they what they can at that scale.

1076
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 2: A little thought exercise here, Imagine that you stumble into

1077
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 2: an amazing windfall of power and you all of a

1078
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:27,760
Speaker 2: sudden control the management of turkeys across the entirety of

1079
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:33,640
Speaker 2: the United States, and you have full rain to adjust regulations,

1080
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:38,280
Speaker 2: season length, bag limit, season timing, anything like that. And

1081
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 2: I guess it's narrow downloabit We'll say we'll pick a state.

1082
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,360
Speaker 2: In any one given state, you have the ability to

1083
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 2: adjust that regulatory framework in any way you possibly would

1084
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:52,479
Speaker 2: like to. I would like to know, number one, how

1085
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 2: would you change hypothetical structure of these regulations if we're

1086
01:08:56,120 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 2: in one of these states where declines are underway, So

1087
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:01,880
Speaker 2: I'd like to understand that it's the ideal as best

1088
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 2: as you can think of. And then number two, as

1089
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:11,720
Speaker 2: an individual, what would you do to reflect these changes

1090
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:15,080
Speaker 2: to best account for the fact that these declines are happening?

1091
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:17,599
Speaker 2: So what would you say, as an individual you would

1092
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 2: do to adjust your hunting practices or strategies or approaches

1093
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:27,920
Speaker 2: or personal limits you might place on yourself given those realities.

1094
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:32,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, So for the first question, would I would just

1095
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 4: rely on the science, and there have been multiple documents,

1096
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 4: scientific documents written about this topic offering recommendations, some of

1097
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:50,160
Speaker 4: those authored by state agency biologists themselves, noting that the

1098
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 4: most conservative season framework for wild turkeys would be to

1099
01:09:55,320 --> 01:10:00,400
Speaker 4: open the season timed around peaks and nest inc cubation,

1100
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:04,240
Speaker 4: meaning a large percentage of your hens are sitting on

1101
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:08,440
Speaker 4: nest and at that point are not receptive to breeding anymore.

1102
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,639
Speaker 4: So there's some percentage of toms that could be removed.

1103
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 3: Right.

1104
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 4: A less conservative but also biologically appropriate season would be

1105
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 4: to open at peaks and laying activity, and the reason

1106
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 4: for that would be a lot of your hens are

1107
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:36,559
Speaker 4: starting to lay clutches and so they are well along

1108
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:41,479
Speaker 4: in the breeding process. Why is that less conservative, Well,

1109
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 4: there's a lot of breeding that also occurs during the

1110
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 4: laying period, So hens are continuing to copulate with toms

1111
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:51,840
Speaker 4: during while they're laying eggs, and there's a lot of

1112
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:56,680
Speaker 4: competition at that time, which is why you see gobbling

1113
01:10:56,760 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 4: activity often peaks when you have the peak and laying

1114
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:06,919
Speaker 4: activity because there's a lot of competition. Right then, Tom's

1115
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:10,160
Speaker 4: recognize if you think about it from their perspective, the

1116
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:14,040
Speaker 4: hens are leaving them every day for some period of time,

1117
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:17,760
Speaker 4: going to a nest, laying an egg, so they're not

1118
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:21,679
Speaker 4: available all the time, and Tom's are sensing that. They're

1119
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:23,720
Speaker 4: sensing that hens are starting to break up.

1120
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 3: They're leaving.

1121
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,599
Speaker 4: She's not always around me, and so there's a lot

1122
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:31,800
Speaker 4: of competition. Okay, So if I were, if I were

1123
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:35,639
Speaker 4: in the position you gave me in the first question,

1124
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 4: I would time the season around one of those two periods,

1125
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:45,880
Speaker 4: depending on when exactly that occurs in a given.

1126
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 3: Area and.

1127
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:52,559
Speaker 4: What harvest would look like in general. So, in other words,

1128
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 4: if you have if I had data available to me

1129
01:11:57,360 --> 01:11:59,720
Speaker 4: and I knew what harvest rates look like, if you

1130
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:04,000
Speaker 4: were in a situation where hunting activity is not very

1131
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:09,599
Speaker 4: it's not super high. In a particular state, then you

1132
01:12:09,640 --> 01:12:14,160
Speaker 4: could probably support a little bit earlier harvest, say peaks

1133
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:16,479
Speaker 4: and laying. But if I were in a state where

1134
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 4: my population has declined by fifty percent plus and it

1135
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:26,799
Speaker 4: is continuing to decline, then I would try to frame

1136
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:30,120
Speaker 4: the season in a way where a lot of the

1137
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:32,880
Speaker 4: breeding activity has already occurred by the time I start

1138
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 4: removing birds, and I and the other thing I would do,

1139
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:39,439
Speaker 4: which this is but you're giving me a scenario that

1140
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:40,880
Speaker 4: would be cool.

1141
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 3: You know.

1142
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:45,559
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, the way our regulations work, and I say our

1143
01:12:45,680 --> 01:12:48,360
Speaker 4: I don't. I don't set regulations, so but I'm telling

1144
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:49,680
Speaker 4: you the reality.

1145
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 3: It takes years.

1146
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:55,960
Speaker 4: So, right, an agency recommends a change, it's it can

1147
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:59,679
Speaker 4: take years for that change to occur, and then.

1148
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 3: It can't like that.

1149
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:06,400
Speaker 4: It's not an iterative type adaptive process in a lot

1150
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:10,839
Speaker 4: of situations. So it's not like let's see what nesting

1151
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:14,600
Speaker 4: season looks like this year, and let's make an immediate

1152
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:16,479
Speaker 4: change to the season next train.

1153
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:18,040
Speaker 3: Right, that doesn't happen.

1154
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:22,120
Speaker 4: So we are making changes that are going to occur

1155
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:26,160
Speaker 4: down the road, and then we're continuing to collect information.

1156
01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:30,799
Speaker 4: It may be another set of years before another change

1157
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:36,599
Speaker 4: is implemented, although the discussion surrounding that change started years earlier.

1158
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:41,480
Speaker 4: And I'll give you an example regulations changes made in

1159
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:44,439
Speaker 4: and I won't name the state, but a southeastern state.

1160
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:49,000
Speaker 4: There were regulation there were changes being discussed in an

1161
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:56,680
Speaker 4: agency a full eleven years before they were implemented. And

1162
01:13:56,760 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 4: so it's very common for agencies to have these conversations

1163
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:04,160
Speaker 4: and then it take years to to make the change.

1164
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:09,920
Speaker 4: The second question, what this is just me? I mean,

1165
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 4: as an individual hunter, I'm trying to assess what the

1166
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:16,920
Speaker 4: population looks like, you know, in the areas that I'm hunting,

1167
01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 4: and and I'm just I'm using my my.

1168
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 3: Intel and my own observations to dictate how I behave.

1169
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,759
Speaker 4: If that, If that requires me to take fewer birds

1170
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 4: off of a particular property, then I do it. If

1171
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 4: it involves me not taking any birds off of a property.

1172
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:43,559
Speaker 4: I have a property right near my house that I

1173
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:47,320
Speaker 4: went fourteen years from what I you know, till I

1174
01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 4: shot a bird last year. And it was because I

1175
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:53,519
Speaker 4: just could not justify killing a bird on that property

1176
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:57,120
Speaker 4: given the abundance in the local area. But through years

1177
01:14:57,200 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 4: of management, not just on this property, but the rounding neighborhood,

1178
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 4: our population now has come back and looks decent, you know,

1179
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:08,960
Speaker 4: and so I felt comfortable shooting a bird there last year.

1180
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:12,719
Speaker 4: So as a as an individual hunter, I'm just kind

1181
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,600
Speaker 4: of I'm trying to think through each year in the

1182
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:19,880
Speaker 4: places I go. You know, if I have history there,

1183
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 4: then I kind of know what the population is trending,

1184
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 4: and I'm going to adjust my behavior accordingly, and if

1185
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:30,720
Speaker 4: that involves taking fewer birds in certain places, and that's

1186
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:31,759
Speaker 4: what I'll.

1187
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 2: Do in the last five years or so where there's

1188
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 2: been And tell me if you think I'm wrong on

1189
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:41,920
Speaker 2: this kind of broad strokes assessment here. But give or

1190
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 2: take the last five years or so, this has become

1191
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:48,880
Speaker 2: a little bit more of a popularly discussed topic. Have

1192
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:53,000
Speaker 2: we made any progress? Has anything positive happened in the

1193
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:55,719
Speaker 2: last five years or so since this conversation has become

1194
01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:58,800
Speaker 2: more public and Turkey hunters seem to be realizing that, oh,

1195
01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:03,160
Speaker 2: the the golden days maybe are are not here anymore,

1196
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:06,200
Speaker 2: We're entering a new era. Has anything turned around? Have

1197
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:11,400
Speaker 2: we seen any changes in either hunter activities or regulations anywhere,

1198
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:14,280
Speaker 2: or habitat or anything that makes you think like, oh,

1199
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 2: we sounded the alarm on some of this stuff and

1200
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:19,719
Speaker 2: we're actually seeing some positive shifts occurring.

1201
01:16:20,640 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 3: Oh lot, yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah.

1202
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:27,920
Speaker 4: I think in the last six years since COVID, that's

1203
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:31,120
Speaker 4: when it that's when it started to shift. In my opinion,

1204
01:16:32,080 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 4: is that spring. First of all, we were stuck. Second,

1205
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:39,840
Speaker 4: we were told, like in many like in my case,

1206
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 4: I had to cancel multiple trips to go out of state.

1207
01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:46,479
Speaker 4: We couldn't interact with each other, We had nothing to do.

1208
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:50,720
Speaker 4: We were we were concerned with what was going on,

1209
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:54,280
Speaker 4: and we started communicating with each other through social media.

1210
01:16:55,160 --> 01:16:58,679
Speaker 4: And I think a lot of people in the Turkey

1211
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:03,479
Speaker 4: hunting world started listening to podcasts and having conversations and

1212
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:08,799
Speaker 4: they started one potentially seeing that a problem existed somewhere

1213
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:12,759
Speaker 4: and they weren't aware of it, or they started hearing

1214
01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 4: other people say the same thing they were seeing and

1215
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:19,479
Speaker 4: they were like, oh shit, okay, that not just being

1216
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:23,680
Speaker 4: not just me. And they started having more conversations, and

1217
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:27,520
Speaker 4: they started becoming educated about what other people were experiencing.

1218
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 4: They started sharing perspectives, sometimes heatedly, right, and that's okay.

1219
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:40,080
Speaker 4: And I think you started seeing this upswell of kind

1220
01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 4: of attention focused around turkeys and the ongoing declines, which

1221
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:50,439
Speaker 4: you know, we had been talking about since twenty fifteen.

1222
01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:52,559
Speaker 4: That was when we first published some of the work

1223
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:57,360
Speaker 4: showing regional declines in the south. And fast forward six

1224
01:17:57,439 --> 01:17:59,880
Speaker 4: years and yeah, I think there's been a tremendous chain

1225
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:02,639
Speaker 4: and I think a lot of people are having these

1226
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 4: conversations like we're having right now, wherein there's recognition that

1227
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 4: we may need to change things we're doing, whether it's

1228
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:16,639
Speaker 4: it's management, whether it be our own behavior. I think

1229
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:20,760
Speaker 4: a lot of turkey hunters now understand that they can

1230
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:24,479
Speaker 4: be part of the solution in many cases, and they

1231
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:27,519
Speaker 4: can be part of the future, and they want they

1232
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:30,840
Speaker 4: see true value in that, and that's awesome. And so

1233
01:18:31,200 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 4: I think if I look now at the conversations that

1234
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 4: I have, they are comparatively way different than they were

1235
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:47,400
Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen, way different. And I think that's good

1236
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:51,720
Speaker 4: and that tells me the future of the bird. There's

1237
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:54,840
Speaker 4: a future there because turkey hunters are going to be

1238
01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:58,760
Speaker 4: I mean, we are the ones that are going to

1239
01:18:58,840 --> 01:18:59,639
Speaker 4: be the future.

1240
01:18:59,720 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 3: Right.

1241
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 4: Our willingness and our passion to buy a hunting licenses,

1242
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:08,720
Speaker 4: to purchase the things that we were talking about to

1243
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:12,439
Speaker 4: spend our money and our time focused on hunting this

1244
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:16,160
Speaker 4: bird and supporting conservation of the bird. We are the

1245
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:20,839
Speaker 4: future of this bird, period. And so like our earlier

1246
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:26,320
Speaker 4: discussions about students and you know who populates our agencies,

1247
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:31,080
Speaker 4: and how do we incentivize landowners to manage how it's

1248
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 4: have for turkeys, and how do we ensure cost share

1249
01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:37,160
Speaker 4: programs and farm bills that are going to target management.

1250
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 4: Turkey hunters are going to be front and center of

1251
01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:43,920
Speaker 4: that because turkey hunters are the ones that most value

1252
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:47,519
Speaker 4: the wild turkey and most want to see this bird

1253
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:50,080
Speaker 4: on our landscapes in the future. So the future of

1254
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:51,639
Speaker 4: the turkeys starts with us.

1255
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:57,440
Speaker 2: So would that be the case? Paint for me two pictures.

1256
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:01,000
Speaker 2: This will be the last thing I asked, and it's

1257
01:20:01,040 --> 01:20:06,439
Speaker 2: a doozy, but paint me a picture of a world

1258
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:09,920
Speaker 2: twenty years from now. I want to imagine my youngest

1259
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:11,960
Speaker 2: son will be twenty six, my oldest son will be

1260
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:17,000
Speaker 2: twenty eight, adults on their own, hopefully avid turkey hunters.

1261
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:20,400
Speaker 2: Maybe they're starting their own young families at that point.

1262
01:20:20,439 --> 01:20:24,519
Speaker 2: Possibly in that world that I'm hoping for and imagining

1263
01:20:24,520 --> 01:20:29,920
Speaker 2: for my kids. Paint from a picture of first a

1264
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:34,760
Speaker 2: worst case scenario, what that would look like and what

1265
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:37,360
Speaker 2: would have to happen for that to come to be,

1266
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:41,240
Speaker 2: and then a best case scenario twenty years from now,

1267
01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:44,280
Speaker 2: what the best case could possibly be for turkeys and

1268
01:20:44,280 --> 01:20:46,840
Speaker 2: turkey hunting and what would have had to happen for

1269
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 2: that to come to life.

1270
01:20:50,200 --> 01:20:53,200
Speaker 3: Damn, that is a doozy. Oh.

1271
01:20:53,560 --> 01:20:57,480
Speaker 4: I almost don't even want to ponder the worst case scenarios,

1272
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 4: you know, honestly, and I'm not trying to skirch your answer,

1273
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:06,240
Speaker 4: but sure, I think I'm going to stick those two

1274
01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:10,439
Speaker 4: scenarios into what I think is going to be the future.

1275
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:14,720
Speaker 4: I think what you're going to be looking at is

1276
01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:20,120
Speaker 4: a world where there there is a lot of demand

1277
01:21:20,680 --> 01:21:26,160
Speaker 4: for a shrinking supply, and basic math and laws of

1278
01:21:26,200 --> 01:21:32,520
Speaker 4: economics are going to tell you that your opportunity to

1279
01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:38,320
Speaker 4: to be part of consuming this bird right through through

1280
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:42,320
Speaker 4: harvest is going to change as the future progresses, and

1281
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:44,800
Speaker 4: so the world that I think we're going to live

1282
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:48,120
Speaker 4: in a few decades from now, I think you're going

1283
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:52,600
Speaker 4: to see a continued use of quota systems by state agencies.

1284
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:58,200
Speaker 4: I think you're going to see situations where harvest is

1285
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:03,320
Speaker 4: going to be increasingly more limited on public lands because

1286
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:05,400
Speaker 4: that's the properties.

1287
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:06,320
Speaker 3: That agencies can control.

1288
01:22:07,960 --> 01:22:10,599
Speaker 4: I think you're going to continue to see, at least

1289
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:14,280
Speaker 4: for the foreseeable future, situations where states are going to

1290
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:20,240
Speaker 4: try to regulate non resident access because non resident hunters

1291
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:22,160
Speaker 4: kill a lot of turkeys. And I'm part of that

1292
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:26,599
Speaker 4: problem myself. You know, my calendar is full go every

1293
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:30,080
Speaker 4: spring because I love to do that, and so I

1294
01:22:30,160 --> 01:22:34,439
Speaker 4: see that, and so I see your kids hunting in

1295
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:39,120
Speaker 4: a world where activity and opportunity is going to in

1296
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:42,919
Speaker 4: some cases be limited because of the availability of the resource.

1297
01:22:44,600 --> 01:22:48,680
Speaker 4: I also think you're going to continue to see situations

1298
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:56,160
Speaker 4: where competing land use essentially causes turkeys to disappear from

1299
01:22:56,200 --> 01:23:01,000
Speaker 4: parts of the landscape, and so our collective population inevitably

1300
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:04,880
Speaker 4: are going to have to decline, particularly in local areas,

1301
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:07,519
Speaker 4: and in some places, I think you may actually see

1302
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:10,599
Speaker 4: the reverse. You may see populations respond like we've talked

1303
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:13,639
Speaker 4: about very early on and start to do much better.

1304
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:18,240
Speaker 4: But across the bird's range, I think you're going to

1305
01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:22,639
Speaker 4: be looking at situations where pockets of turkeys that are

1306
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:27,160
Speaker 4: existing now will not exist in twenty years, and so

1307
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:31,759
Speaker 4: what that's going to cause is a shrinking land base,

1308
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:36,200
Speaker 4: right that contains turkeys, and that's going to put more

1309
01:23:37,479 --> 01:23:43,120
Speaker 4: attention on the dwindling supply of turkeys, which again is

1310
01:23:43,160 --> 01:23:44,920
Speaker 4: going to prompt agencies to.

1311
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:49,320
Speaker 3: Change how we're able to pursue the bird.

1312
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:54,000
Speaker 4: And that's just the that's the reality answer, if you know,

1313
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 4: whether you like it or not. I think that's where

1314
01:23:57,080 --> 01:24:00,840
Speaker 4: we're headed with not just turkeys, many many species. As

1315
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:02,840
Speaker 4: you know, if you go out wes you know, I

1316
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:07,000
Speaker 4: mean in the big game world. You know, preference points

1317
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:11,040
Speaker 4: rules the world, you know, in many states, and that

1318
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:14,439
Speaker 4: could we be in a situation where we're applying for

1319
01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:17,920
Speaker 4: preference points to hunt turkeys. I don't I don't think

1320
01:24:17,960 --> 01:24:18,799
Speaker 4: that's far fetched.

1321
01:24:20,479 --> 01:24:20,760
Speaker 3: All Right.

1322
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:22,200
Speaker 2: I told you that's gonna be my last question, but

1323
01:24:22,200 --> 01:24:26,360
Speaker 2: I'm gonna ask one more. Now, give me one reason

1324
01:24:26,439 --> 01:24:29,440
Speaker 2: for hope on this front. What's one thing that encourages

1325
01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:32,120
Speaker 2: you that, hey, you know what, while all those things

1326
01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:37,600
Speaker 2: are possible and maybe even likely, uh, there there's some

1327
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:40,519
Speaker 2: silver lining. There's some avenues for for moving things in

1328
01:24:40,520 --> 01:24:42,800
Speaker 2: a more positive direction. Because I do think that one

1329
01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:46,799
Speaker 2: thing about the hunting conservation community that has always almost

1330
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:49,920
Speaker 2: always been true has that has been that while we

1331
01:24:50,080 --> 01:24:55,519
Speaker 2: have faced serious challenges in the past, very often unique

1332
01:24:55,560 --> 01:24:59,599
Speaker 2: within the broader environmental or conservation community, we've always been

1333
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:02,920
Speaker 2: a very much let's pull on the gloves and get

1334
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:05,439
Speaker 2: to work. You know, we haven't been the group that

1335
01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:08,280
Speaker 2: just moans and bitches about how things are all going

1336
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:11,000
Speaker 2: to hell, but instead we've actually been quite hands on

1337
01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:13,439
Speaker 2: and saying, all right, well, I'm gonna do something about it.

1338
01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:15,720
Speaker 2: That's something that hunters and anglers have always done a

1339
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:17,840
Speaker 2: pretty darn good job of the last one hundred and

1340
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:20,680
Speaker 2: twenty some years. So with that in mind, give me

1341
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:24,960
Speaker 2: something to be hopeful about.

1342
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:29,360
Speaker 4: That's an easy one to answer. Turkey hunters interacting with

1343
01:25:29,439 --> 01:25:34,000
Speaker 4: turkey hunters. I see, you know, it doesn't matter if

1344
01:25:34,080 --> 01:25:38,080
Speaker 4: you you can get on social media and find somebody

1345
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:40,400
Speaker 4: that that hates on this or hates on that, or

1346
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:45,040
Speaker 4: it doesn't matter because every turkey hunter at their core

1347
01:25:45,439 --> 01:25:48,240
Speaker 4: wants the same thing. We want to be able to

1348
01:25:48,320 --> 01:25:51,479
Speaker 4: hunt turkeys in the future, and we want our kids

1349
01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:53,720
Speaker 4: and our grandkids to be able to hunt turkeys. We

1350
01:25:53,840 --> 01:25:57,680
Speaker 4: all at our heart want the same So that's what

1351
01:25:57,880 --> 01:26:02,400
Speaker 4: tells me there's hope, because there is a turkey hunting

1352
01:26:02,439 --> 01:26:04,800
Speaker 4: community that is fanatical.

1353
01:26:04,240 --> 01:26:05,280
Speaker 3: About this bird.

1354
01:26:06,320 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 4: Turkey hunters, I say this, I've said it hundreds of times,

1355
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:10,639
Speaker 4: are just different.

1356
01:26:10,720 --> 01:26:12,040
Speaker 3: They're just different people.

1357
01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:17,320
Speaker 4: They are cerebral and they have a passion that is

1358
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:23,400
Speaker 4: borders fanatical, right, And so you have people that are

1359
01:26:23,560 --> 01:26:29,360
Speaker 4: that vested in this bird that it consumes their year,

1360
01:26:29,560 --> 01:26:33,479
Speaker 4: it consumes how they behave, it consumes who they are

1361
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:38,800
Speaker 4: as a person. It's their fabric. That is what gives

1362
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:42,120
Speaker 4: me hope because, like you've said, we've done this before.

1363
01:26:42,240 --> 01:26:46,400
Speaker 4: We've faced existential crisis, which we're not there with turkeys now,

1364
01:26:46,479 --> 01:26:50,559
Speaker 4: but we've faced situations where we didn't have turkeys and

1365
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:53,280
Speaker 4: we put our innovative caps on and we figured out

1366
01:26:53,320 --> 01:26:56,800
Speaker 4: a way to make it happen. And now we've gotten

1367
01:26:56,800 --> 01:27:00,679
Speaker 4: a little behind and our populations have declined, and now

1368
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:02,679
Speaker 4: we have to figure out how to reverse the ship.

1369
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:06,680
Speaker 4: Understanding that, like we've talked about, there's all these challenges

1370
01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:08,679
Speaker 4: and face things that we're going to have to face

1371
01:27:08,760 --> 01:27:11,160
Speaker 4: and hoops we're going to have to jump through. Okay,

1372
01:27:11,240 --> 01:27:13,679
Speaker 4: let's just jump through them. Let's figure it out. Let's

1373
01:27:13,760 --> 01:27:17,120
Speaker 4: let's put our innovative caps back on. Be willing to

1374
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:20,599
Speaker 4: give a little bit and figure out what the future

1375
01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:22,800
Speaker 4: for this bird looks like and then be part of it.

1376
01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:25,240
Speaker 4: And that's that that gives me hope, and that starts

1377
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:26,240
Speaker 4: with turkey hunters.

1378
01:27:26,479 --> 01:27:26,799
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1379
01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:31,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe that's possible, and I have to I

1380
01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:34,559
Speaker 2: have to thank you and give you, give you credit

1381
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:38,360
Speaker 2: for helping a lot of people start that journey. The

1382
01:27:38,400 --> 01:27:43,400
Speaker 2: work you've done, the research, the broader communication effort that

1383
01:27:43,439 --> 01:27:45,639
Speaker 2: you've led over the last hand, you know, however many

1384
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:48,120
Speaker 2: years you've been, you know, really be in the public eye.

1385
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:52,880
Speaker 2: It's been tremendous and it's making a difference. So first

1386
01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:55,400
Speaker 2: to thank you, and secondly, if there's people out there

1387
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:58,519
Speaker 2: listening who want to dive deeper into this, who want

1388
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:01,760
Speaker 2: to start engaging more and understanding what's going on with

1389
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:04,799
Speaker 2: turkeys and all the many, many different things that you share,

1390
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:07,360
Speaker 2: could you tell folks about the Wild Turkey Lab and

1391
01:28:07,760 --> 01:28:10,040
Speaker 2: other platforms or places where they can connect with you

1392
01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:13,000
Speaker 2: or the information that you're sharing with the world.

1393
01:28:13,360 --> 01:28:14,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, Yeah.

1394
01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:17,920
Speaker 4: So I have a website, wild Turkey lab dot com

1395
01:28:17,960 --> 01:28:22,080
Speaker 4: that is kind of a clearinghouse for the work i've done.

1396
01:28:22,240 --> 01:28:26,679
Speaker 4: All of the research articles that we've published are there

1397
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:31,040
Speaker 4: posted with a summary of what we did, what we found,

1398
01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:33,400
Speaker 4: and why you should care if you don't feel like

1399
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:36,960
Speaker 4: reading the entire paper. All of the social media posts

1400
01:28:36,960 --> 01:28:40,160
Speaker 4: I've ever done our archive there, a bunch of the

1401
01:28:40,200 --> 01:28:42,960
Speaker 4: podcasts that I've done our archive there, so you can

1402
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:47,559
Speaker 4: find all of that material if you're on social media.

1403
01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:49,840
Speaker 4: If you're on Facebook, if you just type my name in,

1404
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:54,960
Speaker 4: you'll see my account. I post on Facebook, Instagram and

1405
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:58,639
Speaker 4: X every week. If you're on Instagram or X, it's

1406
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:03,559
Speaker 4: wild Turkey Doc, Wild Turkey Doc one word UH. Pretty

1407
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:07,439
Speaker 4: much the same content within reason, on on all of

1408
01:29:07,439 --> 01:29:10,640
Speaker 4: those platforms, although I tend to post more on Instagram

1409
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:12,720
Speaker 4: than I do on the others because I share some

1410
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:13,760
Speaker 4: personal stuff there.

1411
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:17,000
Speaker 3: But and lastly, if you're interested in.

1412
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:22,280
Speaker 4: UH, we launched a huge nationwide genetics project last spring

1413
01:29:22,360 --> 01:29:26,599
Speaker 4: called Wild Turkey DNA, and that's a project that's really

1414
01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:30,160
Speaker 4: starting to expand this spring, and we're super excited about it.

1415
01:29:31,360 --> 01:29:33,960
Speaker 4: If you go to wald Turkey dna dot com, you

1416
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:37,000
Speaker 4: can see that that stuff there, and and we also

1417
01:29:37,120 --> 01:29:39,840
Speaker 4: have socials. Wild Turkey DNA is on all three of

1418
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:43,720
Speaker 4: those platforms that I mentioned previously. So yeah, if you're

1419
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:48,080
Speaker 4: interested in any of that stuff. Check it out, and man,

1420
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:51,519
Speaker 4: thank you for for being interested enough to go to

1421
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:53,360
Speaker 4: go to those pages and take a look.

1422
01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:57,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great stuff. You've You've been a wealth of

1423
01:29:57,680 --> 01:30:00,640
Speaker 2: information for for so many people, and I'm appreciative of

1424
01:30:00,680 --> 01:30:02,960
Speaker 2: that and really appreciate you taking the time today to

1425
01:30:03,240 --> 01:30:06,000
Speaker 2: talk turkey. While some of this, you know, is a

1426
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:10,000
Speaker 2: little bit a little bit discouraging when you dive into it,

1427
01:30:10,040 --> 01:30:12,320
Speaker 2: there's also a whole lot to be excited about turkey

1428
01:30:12,360 --> 01:30:15,240
Speaker 2: season kicking off in a lot of parts of the country.

1429
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:20,320
Speaker 2: And like you said, turkey hunting is a thing to celebrate,

1430
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:22,120
Speaker 2: and it's a thing to get us off our tails

1431
01:30:22,120 --> 01:30:24,439
Speaker 2: and work for these birds too. And so I think,

1432
01:30:24,479 --> 01:30:27,160
Speaker 2: you know, let's get out there, let's have an amazing season,

1433
01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:29,920
Speaker 2: let's enjoy it, and let's let that kind of refill

1434
01:30:30,280 --> 01:30:33,320
Speaker 2: our reservoir with energy to go and do some of

1435
01:30:33,360 --> 01:30:35,280
Speaker 2: these good things to keep it around for many, many

1436
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:36,120
Speaker 2: generations to come.

1437
01:30:36,200 --> 01:30:39,040
Speaker 4: Right, I completely agree, Get out there and spend some

1438
01:30:39,120 --> 01:30:41,200
Speaker 4: time in the woods and the presence of this bird

1439
01:30:41,240 --> 01:30:44,639
Speaker 4: and let it reach ourge reingines and then get to work,

1440
01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:47,240
Speaker 4: you know, in the summer, when the summer gets here,

1441
01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:49,800
Speaker 4: don't stop thinking about turkeys.

1442
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:52,320
Speaker 3: And slow down and take a breath. Man.

1443
01:30:52,400 --> 01:30:56,200
Speaker 4: It spring goes by really quick, and it ends so

1444
01:30:56,280 --> 01:30:58,400
Speaker 4: quickly for me every year, and then I have to

1445
01:30:58,439 --> 01:31:01,040
Speaker 4: live all year to.

1446
01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:03,280
Speaker 3: Get back to slow down and soak it in. So true.

1447
01:31:03,560 --> 01:31:09,599
Speaker 2: All right, Thank you, Mike Man. All right, and that's

1448
01:31:09,640 --> 01:31:12,240
Speaker 2: gonna do it for us today. Thanks for joining me,

1449
01:31:12,439 --> 01:31:14,680
Speaker 2: thanks for tuning in to this one. Good luck on

1450
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:19,000
Speaker 2: your future turkey hunts, and until next time, stay wired

1451
01:31:19,400 --> 01:31:19,840
Speaker 2: to hunt.