Speaker 1: Welcome to NFL Daily, where the entire offseason has been leading.
Speaker 2: To this very show. I'm Greg Rosenthal.
Speaker 1: I am joined by our friend John Ledyard from across
Speaker 1: the country, taking a break from his day job to
Speaker 1: break down the best quarterbacks in the NFL.
Speaker 2: Tongue in cheek a little.
Speaker 1: Bit that the whole often season's been leading to this,
Speaker 1: but this is our last show, John, before the fourth
Speaker 1: of July break. We've been doing our NFL Daily thirty
Speaker 1: two and we've led to quarterbacks the one I think
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people we've been waiting for.
Speaker 1: No one I would rather talk about the position than
Speaker 1: with you.
Speaker 3: I appreciate you, Greg, thank you for having me on.
Speaker 3: I'm excited to talk about this position group. I feel
Speaker 3: like this is the position group that you pulled me
Speaker 3: away from. Any like hot takes I might have, I
Speaker 3: have a lot of them in other positions. I will
Speaker 3: be so curious. I think there are a couple quarterbacks
Speaker 3: that it's like, where are we on these guys, Like,
Speaker 3: are we like full fledged belief mode even though we
Speaker 3: everyone most people would agree we haven't seen it to
Speaker 3: that level yet, or we kind of like, let's hold
Speaker 3: the line until we get more of a sample size
Speaker 3: of excellence from a couple of guys. But other than that,
Speaker 3: I think we're sort of in a like window where
Speaker 3: it's not that controversial right now with this vision. But
Speaker 3: maybe I'll be proven wrong today.
Speaker 1: I think that's right in the sense that I think
Speaker 1: there's more good to solid starting quarterbacks than any time
Speaker 1: since I've been covering the league. It really hits me
Speaker 1: doing this exercise that you can go twenty deep with
Speaker 1: guys that are pretty good, and then you can have
Speaker 1: a number of more promising players after that. It wasn't
Speaker 1: always like that. There's this idea that there was some
Speaker 1: golden age of quarterbacks. No, it used to fall off
Speaker 1: pretty hard after you know, five or twelve or fifteen.
Speaker 1: And so we'll get into who we think should be
Speaker 1: a top our list, but just for parameters for everyone listening,
Speaker 1: it's similar to the rest of the NFL Daily thirty
Speaker 1: two series. We are drafting based on who we would
Speaker 1: want for twenty twenty six alone, so it's not a
Speaker 1: long term, you know, bet, And also we can have
Speaker 1: multiple quarterbacks from the same team. Just guessing could be wrong.
Speaker 1: There might not be a Cleveland Brown drafted today. So
Speaker 1: there's some teams that maybe won't have any quarterbacks and
Speaker 1: some teams that could have two. John, I've been giving
Speaker 1: our guests the first pick, so I will give that
Speaker 1: to you. And for people who aren't familiar, John's joined
Speaker 1: the show before, but he is Ali Connolly's great co
Speaker 1: host on their podcasts together, The Read Optional. He does
Speaker 1: great work on Substack, so everyone check out John Ledyard
Speaker 1: there and they combined for one of the best NFL
Speaker 1: podcasts out there. And now a lot of pressure on you,
Speaker 1: John with the first over.
Speaker 3: Thanks for the kind words and the kind intro there.
Speaker 3: Number one pick. This is a lot of pressure, and
Speaker 3: I think what I'm gonna do is go a little bit.
Speaker 3: Maybe this is oscrip. You tell me, and I don't
Speaker 3: think I would say that. It's pretty like going away
Speaker 3: from Patrick brohomes here two largely I think would be
Speaker 3: a tough move. But I am going to go with
Speaker 3: Josh Allen first. Overall, I think here, I think there's
Speaker 3: a lot of guys in this tier though. That's how
Speaker 3: I'd start My preface about this position is that Tier
Speaker 3: one might be a little more crowded. There's more conversation
Speaker 3: for other guys than there's been in a while where
Speaker 3: I think for a couple of years we've seen it
Speaker 3: mostly Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes and
Speaker 3: then perhaps Joe Burrow if he's a healthy season, it's
Speaker 3: usually Joe Burrow. If he's not outthy, everybody starts talking
Speaker 3: about how he's not on that level. But those guys
Speaker 3: have typically been like still at the top, and well,
Speaker 3: I still think they're all in that conversation. I think
Speaker 3: there's probably other names that we can throw in that
Speaker 3: we're going to discuss. So it's a little more contentious
Speaker 3: for this top spot. I think that it's been in
Speaker 3: the past. The reason I go to Josh Allen, who
Speaker 3: I know hasn't done it in the playoffs at the
Speaker 3: level Mahomes has. But I think it's been a little
Speaker 3: bit better the last couple of seasons is I think
Speaker 3: the team built around him has actually been the least
Speaker 3: helpful of the top guys, you know, the consensus top guys,
Speaker 3: typical top guys. They've certainly had some good things. None
Speaker 3: of these situations are just absolute disasters. So I don't
Speaker 3: mean to paint it that way, but I would say
Speaker 3: the situation around and whether you're looking at pass catcher
Speaker 3: or even if you're looking at just overall offensive dominance,
Speaker 3: like ability to dominate in lots of different situations. Their
Speaker 3: offense has been in which when their team was at
Speaker 3: their best, they had more of a building. That way,
Speaker 3: they were able to be a team that beat different
Speaker 3: types of defenses at a higher level. And certainly in
Speaker 3: the regular season they've still had their share of success.
Speaker 3: But I just think if you look at some of
Speaker 3: their players, like there's some solid players in their offensive line, Obviously,
Speaker 3: losing Aaron Kromer as an offensive line coach, I think
Speaker 3: is going to affect them a lot too. So there
Speaker 3: was like enough kind of bastions of the Bills of
Speaker 3: a couple of years ago to survive year to year.
Speaker 3: And they still have some good players, but he's not
Speaker 3: surrounded by a lot of other all world types of
Speaker 3: players on that offense. And so yet I think he's
Speaker 3: been as good as any quarterback in the league. And
Speaker 3: I know in the playoffs that matters too, And I
Speaker 3: think he's rarely been the reason that they've just kind
Speaker 3: of fallen off in those moments. They've frankly been pretty
Speaker 3: unlucky in some moments in the playoffs, and also they've
Speaker 3: hurt themselves some times too, But I think it he's
Speaker 3: clearly in the conversation, and for me just think I
Speaker 3: think he might still be closer to the peak of
Speaker 3: his powers than maybe mahomes is, although watch to see
Speaker 3: how he comes back from the injury.
Speaker 1: So we'll have some trends with these rankings. And one
Speaker 1: thing I got to thinking going through writing these names
Speaker 1: down is the very top of the league, which I
Speaker 1: think it's been pretty stable for a while, aren't coming
Speaker 1: off their best seasons. To me, Josh Allen was an
Speaker 1: easy number one.
Speaker 2: I thought.
Speaker 1: You know, I know, MVP votes aren't the most perfect
Speaker 1: measure of a player, but the fact that he's third, fifth, first,
Speaker 1: and third over the last four years, that just shows
Speaker 1: the type of consistency you mentioned the playoffs, where his
Speaker 1: play in general has only gone up. Then again, his
Speaker 1: QBR last year, like was his lowest since twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1: There were some ups and downs during the regular season.
Speaker 1: He's very often had little dips in the regular season,
Speaker 1: but the overall picture is great. You know, he's fifth
Speaker 1: in yards percent. Some of the numbers were down, he
Speaker 1: took more sacks. Certainly last year, I do think you
Speaker 1: can fault the surroundings that he had, but over to me, actually,
Speaker 1: he was a pretty easy number one, and I think
Speaker 1: the playoffs are a good microcosm of what he can do.
Speaker 1: The Jaguars game was just absolutely electric, almost a perfect game,
Speaker 1: and then the Broncos game had a little bit of everything.
Speaker 1: There are great scrambles and then there's a disaster scramble
Speaker 1: from him doing too much that you know, helped to
Speaker 1: lead to a turnover.
Speaker 2: His short game is way better.
Speaker 1: I think he's matured in terms of how he gets
Speaker 1: rid of the ball, and he's so much more accurate.
Speaker 2: We've obviously talked about that.
Speaker 1: And he didn't have the weapons deep last year, so
Speaker 1: he didn't use the weapons deep as the lowest air
Speaker 1: yards for him, you know, per row for a season
Speaker 1: by far. But in the end, he puts up all
Speaker 1: those points on that Broncos defense that should have been
Speaker 1: good enough to win that game. And it's one of
Speaker 1: two Bills playoff trips where I really will look back
Speaker 1: and think, man, they should have been in the super
Speaker 1: Bowl that in two of those seasons, and this is
Speaker 1: one of them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no doubt They've had a lot of opportunities to
Speaker 3: look back on that way, and that's maybe the story
Speaker 3: of the Buffalo franchise in some way. But I still
Speaker 3: feel like with him, don't you feel like they've got
Speaker 3: kind of as good a shot as anybody in terms
Speaker 3: of you, because you're right, all these guys are not
Speaker 3: coming off maybe their best season and even some of
Speaker 3: their teams team building wise, there's more questions around the Ravens,
Speaker 3: the Chiefs, the Bills like that. I mean, change is
Speaker 3: a coach like changes? Could there be changes above them
Speaker 3: at some point? Like there's more questions around the structure
Speaker 3: of the franchise, and there's been really over the last
Speaker 3: couple of years for all these guys. And yet I
Speaker 3: think that if you're just saying, Okay, which quarterback would
Speaker 3: I want to go into battle with? Out of all
Speaker 3: these guys. There's certainly arguments for all of them. That's
Speaker 3: why they're in the same tier. But I think Allen's
Speaker 3: multi tool skill set would be the way that I
Speaker 3: would go, Which, by the way, isn't it insane that
Speaker 3: we're talking about Josh Allen best quarterback in the league.
Speaker 3: I always been in that conversation for a while, but
Speaker 3: like you're saying, easy number one of the league, he
Speaker 3: wasn't even good in college. It's just like, yeah, the
Speaker 3: craziest round. I'll never get over the rise of power.
Speaker 2: It is absolutely true.
Speaker 1: And I was slow to accept the new world order
Speaker 1: we've been living in. And yet as someone who loves
Speaker 1: Mahomes and I'm not taking them with them too because
Speaker 1: he's coming off of this injury. You're making a face there,
Speaker 1: but it is strange to feel that. I think, just
Speaker 1: on balance, Alan has been the best guy. He's so
Speaker 1: good that we didn't even mention that. Know, him running
Speaker 1: the ball is essentially the most efficient play in football
Speaker 1: for five straight seasons. So my number two pick, and
Speaker 1: this was very difficult because again I'm with you that
Speaker 1: this is a pretty big tier of five six guys,
Speaker 1: and because of Mahomes' injury, I actually would take Lamar
Speaker 1: Jackson as my second pick. If I was judging just
Speaker 1: off last season, you know he would be much lower.
Speaker 1: He was a different player in twenty twenty five. He
Speaker 1: was not as elusive. He took a ton of sacks
Speaker 1: when he was pressured. There weren't as many wow runs.
Speaker 1: I'm going negative here to start to just build my case.
Speaker 1: But the thing that really worried me was that there
Speaker 1: weren't as many wow throws. Despite all that, he was
Speaker 1: still a top ten quarterback in terms of QBR, is
Speaker 1: still great against man coverage. It was a lot more
Speaker 1: play action, which was weird but was fun to see. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: he's like the all time NFL leader in adjusted yards
Speaker 1: per attempt And I'm not a big QB rating guy,
Speaker 1: but he is the all.
Speaker 2: Time leader in that.
Speaker 1: You know, he's been top two MVP three times the
Speaker 1: other four seasons. It's worth noting like he didn't get
Speaker 1: a vote and he eating missed four games in three
Speaker 1: of the last five seasons. That's kind of the basic
Speaker 1: argument the eyeball test to me is he still in
Speaker 1: the middle of his prime. Last year was a really
Speaker 1: down year. It's a contract situation, not that he wouldn't
Speaker 1: be motivated every single season, but I like the direction
Speaker 1: their offense is going to take, and I'm looking at
Speaker 1: the total balance of his career and still considering him
Speaker 1: smack in the middle of his prime, and the fact
Speaker 1: that Mahomes is coming off this injury is enough for
Speaker 1: me to look at the rest of the quarterbacks and
Speaker 1: think no one's done enough for me to pass Lamar
Speaker 1: Jackson on my overall list, And so I'm still going
Speaker 1: to put Lamar number two.
Speaker 2: What do you think?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's totally valid. I mean, he's obviously
Speaker 3: in that conversation he was three for me. But I
Speaker 3: mean I also went back and forth between me and Mahomes.
Speaker 3: You know, obviously Mahomes the injury, how do you dig
Speaker 3: that into account. I'm a little bit worried about Lamar
Speaker 3: and just how much his body's gonna hold up. But
Speaker 3: I've also been here before in twenty twenty one, I
Speaker 3: believe it was We're a little bit Ooh, what's that
Speaker 3: going to look like? Moving forward with him? Like is
Speaker 3: he going to be able to stay healthy? The way
Speaker 3: that he plays and his adaptability is probably one of
Speaker 3: the more underrated aspects of who he is as a player.
Speaker 3: His ability to more from one system under Greg Roman
Speaker 3: to a new system under Todd Munkin, and different things
Speaker 3: that they asked him to do. He's always been a
Speaker 3: more complete player than he's billed as. And I think
Speaker 3: his ability to I mean, for a while, he was
Speaker 3: like his rushing was as threatening as his passing and
Speaker 3: then he just moved away from that, not being that
Speaker 3: type of player anymore, and he's still like a great athlete,
Speaker 3: but he just changed his style to protect himself more
Speaker 3: after that season, and you get way less of those moments.
Speaker 3: So I think that part of it for him, I mean,
Speaker 3: is a big plus in his favor. I would say
Speaker 3: he's you can make a case also though I think
Speaker 3: the coaching situation has been better. Their talent's also fallen
Speaker 3: off a little bit in Baltimore, and he's not necessarily
Speaker 3: been surrounded by elite guys either, and last year the
Speaker 3: offensive line play really knows dived, So I'm really curious
Speaker 3: to see him in the new system. Could be an
Speaker 3: MVP caliber season again for him, the way that he
Speaker 3: just when you think maybe he's on his downside, the
Speaker 3: way he bounces back, because he is such an adaptable player. Yeah, definitely,
Speaker 3: clearly in this conversation, no doubt.
Speaker 1: It's partly a hunch that he's got one more great
Speaker 1: rushing season in him still, and that to me, he's
Speaker 1: got another MVP caliber type of season in him still,
Speaker 1: and I think this season would make a lot of
Speaker 1: sense for that to happen with that new system. Maybe
Speaker 1: I'm buying the offseason hype a little too much that
Speaker 1: he's like into Decklan Doyle and everything.
Speaker 2: All right, you're up with three. I think you telegraph
Speaker 2: that you're going mind.
Speaker 3: I did tip my hands to Momes. Yeah, and I'm
Speaker 3: still gonna go with him. Maybe I'm a coward. I
Speaker 3: don't know, but I am sort of with you in that, Like,
Speaker 3: has anybody really done enough to like actually sway me
Speaker 3: off the top three? Probably not. I mean, you could
Speaker 3: certainly make an argument, but it's mostly belief based in
Speaker 3: Drake May. And certainly we're saying, oh, for twenty twenty six,
Speaker 3: we don't really even know healthy Mahomes is gonna be,
Speaker 3: Like at the beginning, I tend to think he will be,
Speaker 3: but you know, just based on the reporting that we
Speaker 3: do have out there, but you know, if he isn't that,
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that does open the conversation for
Speaker 3: Drake May. I still feel like I think the situation
Speaker 3: around Mahomes really has been devolving for some time, and
Speaker 3: I think that caught up with them along with his
Speaker 3: health obviously, but I think that really caught up with
Speaker 3: them last season to where they had basically been like
Speaker 3: Mahomes save us for a while, I think, in a
Speaker 3: lot of different directions, and really their star players Kelsey,
Speaker 3: Chris Jones, Patrick Mahomes. And when those players weren't stars anymore,
Speaker 3: couldn't be, or were injured or fall it fell off
Speaker 3: a little bit. There was just a lot of flaws
Speaker 3: revealed that they hadn't actually done this unbelievable job team building,
Speaker 3: but they just had best quarterback, may be, the best
Speaker 3: tight end, one of the best defensive tackles, best head
Speaker 3: coach or in the conversation, best defensive coordinator in the conversation,
Speaker 3: like their cream of the crop was like as good
Speaker 3: as it gets basically, and then after that the rest
Speaker 3: of things really fell off. So as soon as there
Speaker 3: was any type of decrease there, even in terms of
Speaker 3: ingenuity and creativity for me and you read, whatever it
Speaker 3: might be, I think they all felt the effect of that.
Speaker 3: To me, Mahomes is the most likely of all those
Speaker 3: factors to still be at the peak of his power.
Speaker 3: So if they can get to the point, I still
Speaker 3: think it's a huge question mark. By the way, if
Speaker 3: they can get to the point where they have rebuilt
Speaker 3: things around him a little bit I think he's still
Speaker 3: going to be in all these Super Bowl conversations. I
Speaker 3: don't think many people are thinking that he's really falling off.
Speaker 3: So maybe I'm making a case that doesn't necessarily need
Speaker 3: to be made, but he would still be my number
Speaker 3: three guy. But I just think what's really happened in
Speaker 3: this top tier is you've seen the gap close between
Speaker 3: those guys and other people entering the conversation. And I
Speaker 3: also think we're on the precipice of perhaps a big turnover.
Speaker 3: Maybe we'll see if it's this season or it's next,
Speaker 3: but I think we could be on the precipice of
Speaker 3: major change. I thought maybe we were going to get
Speaker 3: there last year. I don't know if we quite got
Speaker 3: there other than Drake Mayo. I'm sure we'll talk about
Speaker 3: here soon, but I think that we could be on
Speaker 3: the precipice of that with some of these recent QB drafts.
Speaker 1: So I struggled with Mahomes in this exercise because for
Speaker 1: this season, I maybe it's just my like old thinking.
Speaker 2: I know acls aren't what they used to be, but.
Speaker 1: I saw enough last season before the injury that it
Speaker 1: does worry me just a little bit that he was
Speaker 1: playing his worst football of his career, or the offense
Speaker 1: was as bad as it was. I think he actually
Speaker 1: played really well the first nine to ten games of
Speaker 1: the season. But if you look down the stretch, he
Speaker 1: had a couple performances against it was the Texans, Bills,
Speaker 1: and Broncos, whereas like ten points, thirteen points, thirteen points,
Speaker 1: even the game that he got hurt against the Chargers,
Speaker 1: they were lost in that game. So those are four
Speaker 1: playoff teams he played down the stretch, and like he
Speaker 1: was a little lost in those games like one, you know,
Speaker 1: fifty two percent completion, one touchdown, six interceptions.
Speaker 2: I know those aren't the end, I'll be all.
Speaker 1: He looked better than that, and it was the offense
Speaker 1: collapsing around him, but it did happen at what felt
Speaker 1: like his lowest moment as a pro, even when he
Speaker 1: was out there healthy. So when you're comparing him and
Speaker 1: now it's been a couple of years where the numbers
Speaker 1: have been a little down, I'm curious when you watch
Speaker 1: on film, like, look, the last two healthy seasons, he
Speaker 1: was very good, but he finishes like, you know, sixth
Speaker 1: and seventh in MVP race. It's not quite the same
Speaker 1: like firestarter that he opens his career. Is there anything
Speaker 1: from him specifically, not his surroundings that you see as
Speaker 1: different or concerning compared to the quarterback you saw when
Speaker 1: he first got into the league.
Speaker 3: I think there's still I think he's he dis evolves
Speaker 3: to hero mode, I would say, and there is less
Speaker 3: around him, so that's more frequent, and I think it's
Speaker 3: just generally a hard way to survive. He I mean,
Speaker 3: we talked about this with Russell Wilson when we talk
Speaker 3: about his career, and obviously Mahomes I think is a
Speaker 3: more talented player than Russell Wilson and playing within the structure,
Speaker 3: but when the pieces devolved around you the way they
Speaker 3: have homes and you have to go to hero mode
Speaker 3: more often, the recklessness starts to come out. Some of
Speaker 3: the shots that he's taken start to come out. So
Speaker 3: whether it's taking sacks or just in general more pressure,
Speaker 3: drop backs, those sorts of things. I think he creates
Speaker 3: a lot of that stuff by trying to go into
Speaker 3: hero mode to wake up for the fact that, yeah,
Speaker 3: they can't play against every type of defense the way
Speaker 3: that they used to. They don't have guys that separate
Speaker 3: against top players and coverage the way that they used to,
Speaker 3: So he doesn't have some of the go to things
Speaker 3: that he's had in the past in the structure of
Speaker 3: the offense, so they've had to adapt, So he's had
Speaker 3: to adapt by playing more hero ball, and in general
Speaker 3: their offense has lacked explosiveness in the past game. And
Speaker 3: then the biggest thing is the run game also not
Speaker 3: being so he's not able to do much off of
Speaker 3: the run game, which now, especially as the league's evolved,
Speaker 3: right the Chiefs were like at the peak of their
Speaker 3: powers and all these RPOs and right running this offense
Speaker 3: from the gun and like that was really efficient for them.
Speaker 3: When they go under center, they just have not had
Speaker 3: a great offense. And that's just a really hard way
Speaker 3: to life because everybody right now the last couple of
Speaker 3: years is building these really successful offenses for the most part,
Speaker 3: has this big under center game, and the Chiefs haven't
Speaker 3: been able to be consistently dominant in that capacity. So
Speaker 3: some of that's affected him and just the overall ability
Speaker 3: of him to play with instructure. When you think about
Speaker 3: going under center and pure dropback football, you're thinking a
Speaker 3: lot about structured passing attack, and that's just not been
Speaker 3: where the chief The Chiefs just haven't had the talent
Speaker 3: to be able to do it. I don't think they've
Speaker 3: even had the coaching to be honest, to be able
Speaker 3: to evolve. And I think that can be in there,
Speaker 3: but it just hasn't been, and he suffered as a
Speaker 3: result of that, and some of his worst tendencies have
Speaker 3: come out.
Speaker 1: He's such an interesting career arc right now, and the
Speaker 1: longer it's gone on, I started to think, could he
Speaker 1: have like a Dan Marino like career art? Because I've
Speaker 1: said about Mahomes since the day he entered the league,
Speaker 1: this is the best player I've ever seen enter the league.
Speaker 1: It's the best quarterback I've ever seen enter the league
Speaker 1: in terms of what he is producing on the field
Speaker 1: from the minute he started playing. And then I started
Speaker 1: to thinking, over the last twenty years, who's had an
Speaker 1: arc like this where it's now a three year period
Speaker 1: where it is it's still completely excellent, but it's down
Speaker 1: a little bit like Manning and Brading breath like they
Speaker 1: didn't really have like three year stretches like that. And
Speaker 1: I started thinking, like, could he have a Marino like arc?
Speaker 1: Where Marino is one of, if not the greatest quarterbacks
Speaker 1: of all time in his first five seasons of his career,
Speaker 1: and he was still an all time great the rest
Speaker 1: of the way, but not at that level. I think
Speaker 1: Mahomes will bounce back and get to his previous heights
Speaker 1: in different ways. I don't think this is the year
Speaker 1: to do it. So I had a handful of guys
Speaker 1: ahead of him just because of the injury. I was
Speaker 1: afraid that leaves us to four. You've been saying Drake
Speaker 1: May Nate Tice, I saw took him third overall in
Speaker 1: his in his QB draft, And maybe I'm just negging
Speaker 1: myself because I'm a Patriots fan. I've always been a
Speaker 1: Drake May guy. But I wrote down Joe Burrow ahead
Speaker 1: of Drake May for this season alone, just because I
Speaker 1: want to see May back it up do it again,
Speaker 1: and because I'm really high on Burrow this season specifically.
Speaker 1: I mean, we kind of know who Joe Burrow is
Speaker 1: at this point. He will kill you if you keep
Speaker 1: him clean, period, and he has maybe become, you know,
Speaker 1: similar to to Stafford, like he's he's been better lately.
Speaker 1: When you blitz him, he was holding the ball a
Speaker 1: little longer. I mean he has a very specific style
Speaker 1: of play. Although it's been very interesting. John, I just
Speaker 1: I just listened to this this morning, hearing that they've
Speaker 1: worked way more on under center plays this year. We'll
Speaker 1: see if they actually do it, but in the off season.
Speaker 3: That is western the off season if they're saying, yeah.
Speaker 1: I know, Look, he was great, like capital G. Gray
Speaker 1: in a couple of those games against the Bills and
Speaker 1: the Ravens. He also had some stinkers. He killed the
Speaker 1: bad teams late last year. I think he's going to
Speaker 1: have a great season, and and maybe I think May's
Speaker 1: ceiling is higher. But in terms of like feeling comfortable
Speaker 1: that Joe Burrow is going to have a great season,
Speaker 1: as long as he's out there, I'm gonna go Joe
Speaker 1: Burrow forth.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's totally fair. It's really just a question
Speaker 3: to me, honestly, of health with Joe Burrow. I mean,
Speaker 3: you just had these three seasons, you know, way lead
Speaker 3: by injury to some extent and consistency aspects. But you know,
Speaker 3: you're assuming going to next season it's all healthy. What's
Speaker 3: it going to look like? You know, what's this his
Speaker 3: age thirty season?
Speaker 2: I think?
Speaker 3: Is that right? Yeah? So you know how much of
Speaker 3: that is there going to be a falloff after all
Speaker 3: these injuries, But he was, you know, maybe the best
Speaker 3: quarterback in the league. Certainly in that conversation in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty four, I thought he played at that dominant of
Speaker 3: a level statistically was obviously awesome. But then when you
Speaker 3: take into consideration the tape aspect of this too, greg
Speaker 3: that he's playing the game on the highest setting of difficulty.
Speaker 3: Now he prefers to play it that way. There might
Speaker 3: be way ways for his team to be more successful
Speaker 3: if they play structure things a little bit differently, and
Speaker 3: you referenced under center, more structured play from under center,
Speaker 3: and that would hopefully allow them to lean somewhat on
Speaker 3: some semblance of a run game and just having more
Speaker 3: versatility in their offense, having more unpredictability. They just don't
Speaker 3: run that much. There's not that big of a menu.
Speaker 3: They are saved by their talent. That's how he prefers
Speaker 3: to play. So it's not necessarily a shot at the
Speaker 3: coaching staff. That's how Joe Burrow prefers to play. He's
Speaker 3: excellent at it. Would he be as good at a
Speaker 3: system that was less difficult in some ways? That's a
Speaker 3: goodee question to ask, But that's sort of where you
Speaker 3: get to with Burrow. But I think hopefully we learn that.
Speaker 3: Imagine if he is, by the way, that would be fascinating,
Speaker 3: because the whole offense, the whole team, it is really
Speaker 3: just Burrow in the passing attack, and then everything else
Speaker 3: is kind of like ho hum or, you know, not
Speaker 3: good somewhere in there in that range. And I think
Speaker 3: him individually, I've said for a long time, like, I
Speaker 3: think you absolutely can make the case that in several
Speaker 3: given years of his career he's been the best guy.
Speaker 3: And he's been great in big moments too, which matter
Speaker 3: a lot as well. So I'm totally good with this pick.
Speaker 3: I've considered him underrated sort of, you know, although it
Speaker 3: usually in this conversation for some time, it's really just
Speaker 3: a matter of what you think about physically, where he's going,
Speaker 3: where you think about the fact that this offense hasn't
Speaker 3: had a lot of evolution to it. Does he want
Speaker 3: to evolve? If he doesn't, does that mean that there's
Speaker 3: just more going to go downhill from here? As we've
Speaker 3: seen defensive all more and their success sort of tank.
Speaker 3: Even when he's been good you mentioned him being up
Speaker 3: on bad teams, Like, I think there's real questions about
Speaker 3: that part of it in the league. What's the sustainability
Speaker 3: of it as good as he is at it, So
Speaker 3: that would be my big question for it. But in
Speaker 3: terms of the individual player, I absolutely love Joe Burrow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's partly a bed on twenty twenty six. And look,
Speaker 1: if it really was my team, maybe I probably would
Speaker 1: take Drake May. And yet, like, I think he'd be
Speaker 1: a great MVP pick. I'm sure there's not that long
Speaker 1: odds this year. I do feel that he is set
Speaker 1: up and I do feel a little more comfortable that,
Speaker 1: you know, he's at his age thirty season, as long
Speaker 1: as he stays healthy, which is a big if I
Speaker 1: trust him just a little bit more than Drake May
Speaker 1: still see new things.
Speaker 2: Is Drake May your pick at number five?
Speaker 3: He is my pick? Yeah, And I think there's six
Speaker 3: guys in this tier and we'll see if you pick
Speaker 3: the sixth guy to having this tier. But I think
Speaker 3: that Drake May, you could make arguments from kind of
Speaker 3: all over this tier, I would say, to a degree,
Speaker 3: but he's gonna be my pick here. I just felt
Speaker 3: like poise for him, considering the fact that I don't
Speaker 3: think he was like he had unbelievable production, and especially
Speaker 3: because he got pummeled the second half his rookie season,
Speaker 3: and then to go in and play the way he did,
Speaker 3: to make the amount of throws under dress that he did,
Speaker 3: and yes, he brings some of that on himself. I
Speaker 3: think decision making and pocket presence or the areas the
Speaker 3: big areas he needs to improve on. That's not that abnormal,
Speaker 3: I would say for a quarterback in his place, and
Speaker 3: he's already way better at those things than most guys
Speaker 3: his HR. So I just think downfield accuracy, big play creation.
Speaker 3: The fact that his legs are a legit asset doesn't
Speaker 3: probably get talked about enough. There's a lot to talk about,
Speaker 3: so I get it. Ability to throw in the middle
Speaker 3: of the field is in there. He can play in
Speaker 3: different types of offenses and game situations. That's all really
Speaker 3: really appealing to me. I think he just has the
Speaker 3: skill set of a guy that's going to be an
Speaker 3: elite quarterback in the league. I think we've been able
Speaker 3: to see that, frankly for a while now. Ball placement
Speaker 3: in accuracy to high degree of difficulty, locations, on the
Speaker 3: field is a real sp actual special trait, and I
Speaker 3: think he has that. So one of the top things
Speaker 3: I look for in a quarterback is a lot of
Speaker 3: the stuff that he are. A bunch of the top
Speaker 3: things I look for a bunch of the things that
Speaker 3: he has. And so, yeah, it wasn't pretty in the playoffs,
Speaker 3: and it got real ugly in the super Bowl, obviously,
Speaker 3: and that's part of how it goes at this position,
Speaker 3: especially when you're young. But to get there at all,
Speaker 3: with the type of team they had, he had to
Speaker 3: be an absolute special player all season. So it's just
Speaker 3: not outside the possibility that we're looking at this is
Speaker 3: like he's the number one guy going into coming out
Speaker 3: of this next season. When we do this show again
Speaker 3: next year, like that could be where the conversation starts.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I just I don't want to go any
Speaker 3: lower than this on him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 1: The part that I wouldn't say worries me, but so
Speaker 1: many of the things he did felt like they were
Speaker 1: almost impossible to do. Like he had the highest tight
Speaker 1: window completion percentage in the league by far, it was
Speaker 1: the third highest since twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2: He was insane against the blitz.
Speaker 1: He was insane against pressure until the offseason, where he
Speaker 1: had I think almost more turnovers in the playoffs against
Speaker 1: pressure then he did all of the regular season. But
Speaker 1: you know, completing seventy percent seventy two percent of his
Speaker 1: passes while being fourth an average depth of target like
Speaker 1: and just hitting throws at a crazy high rate down
Speaker 1: the field, Like, it is crazy to combine that all
Speaker 1: you could you could look at that, and you could
Speaker 1: think about him versus Patrick Mahomes' twenty nineteen season. I
Speaker 1: would put Mahomes ahead of it, but it's like not
Speaker 1: that ahead of it, and that's why we like, wouldn't
Speaker 1: be that crazy to take May first.
Speaker 2: Overall. The problem is the playoffs.
Speaker 1: The problem is you suck sort of like his worst
Speaker 1: stretch of the season right after that.
Speaker 2: But I'm excited.
Speaker 1: I'm excited to see this next step and his value
Speaker 1: that he brings running the ball is massive. You said, Okay,
Speaker 1: you think it's a six person tier, which means you're
Speaker 1: either rude enough to say the reigning MVP doesn't even
Speaker 1: belong in the first tier, or you just disagree with
Speaker 1: my pick of Justin Herbert at six, because I'm taking
Speaker 1: Herbert here. I don't care Matthew Stafford. He's getting up
Speaker 1: there in years. Okay, it's to me, it's all one
Speaker 1: big tier. The first seven I would have Stafford in it. Personally.
Speaker 1: That playoff game was so bad out of Herbert, but man,
Speaker 1: he was so good in the regular season.
Speaker 2: I love the combination with Mike McDaniel.
Speaker 1: I know we're trying to divorce the situation somewhat, but
Speaker 1: he went deep more often, he held the ball more often.
Speaker 1: He was pressured at the highest rate, and because he
Speaker 1: was trying to make plays because that's what we've sort
Speaker 1: of asked him to do, and I think he did
Speaker 1: a pretty good job of that.
Speaker 2: And the situation was brutal.
Speaker 1: He faced the most quick pressures in the league, the
Speaker 1: most unblocked pressures in the league. He was the first
Speaker 1: quarterback since Deshaun Watson like eight years ago to face
Speaker 1: the most amount of pressure and actually make the playoffs.
Speaker 1: And so I give him a lot of credit for
Speaker 1: that regular season. I think the arrow is just pointing up.
Speaker 1: And a tiebreaker for these last three for me, between
Speaker 1: you know, May and Herbert and Stafford was age was
Speaker 1: a Dancy was like worrying about you know, possibly the
Speaker 1: back injury for Stafford, but more importantly like mobility, and
Speaker 1: so that that's enough where I think I'm just kind
Speaker 1: of splitting hairs between those three.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna take Herbert sixth overall.
Speaker 3: He's tough for me, really tough. I've been a pretty
Speaker 3: big Herbert sixth overall guy. But actually for me, he
Speaker 3: went down to ninth, and I think you can make
Speaker 3: a lot of arguments he kind of starts he's in
Speaker 3: that beginning of the next tier for me. There's a
Speaker 3: couple guys in the next year. He's in that next tier.
Speaker 3: For me, I would say I have one more guy
Speaker 3: in this in my top tier that you reference, Matt Stafford,
Speaker 3: that we'll talk about here in a second when I
Speaker 3: pick him. But yeah, just to talk about Herbert, I
Speaker 3: am really I'm torn on him because you're right. He
Speaker 3: was awesome in the regular season and awesome despite adverse
Speaker 3: situations in the regular season, and that's been the story
Speaker 3: of his career, right The offensive lines have been bad.
Speaker 3: When they've been good, they've been hurt. Like it's just
Speaker 3: over and over and over again. You're seeing kind of
Speaker 3: some of the similar trends with him, and he yet
Speaker 3: he served he's getting whooped on in the regular season.
Speaker 3: I mean, it is brutal to watch, and statistically you're
Speaker 3: not like necessarily always being wowed in terms of counting stats.
Speaker 3: But if you watch the games, which I'm always saying,
Speaker 3: watch the games, and you'll see how good Justin Herbert is.
Speaker 3: And then the playoffs happen, and I just I'm at
Speaker 3: the point Greg where I am like, not the person
Speaker 3: at all. That's like, oh, let's go with the small
Speaker 3: sample size. But the three playoff games he's played, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's been really bad. And I'm just so I'm sort
Speaker 3: of at that point where I don't want to move
Speaker 3: away from him, which is why I'm still in this tier. Like,
Speaker 3: I mean, he's still a top ten guy for me.
Speaker 3: He's still one of the guys that I think is
Speaker 3: the best in the league. Like obviously you have a
Speaker 3: conversation with him. A lot of places in these rankings
Speaker 3: depending on what you think of stafford in health if
Speaker 3: you're thinking long term, like he would be a guy
Speaker 3: that a lot of people would want to start the
Speaker 3: franchise with. And I see all that. I think it's
Speaker 3: in there. I just don't know why he doesn't play
Speaker 3: that way in the playoffs. I mean, his this last
Speaker 3: playoff game was just unbelievably bad, and the situation around
Speaker 3: him is definitely tough, but it wasn't impossible to figure
Speaker 3: out he genuinely looked like I mean, we're going to
Speaker 3: talk about CJ. Stroud at some point too, and it
Speaker 3: was like those guys just had meltdown performances. And with Herbert,
Speaker 3: it's like, I'm like trying to figure out whether he
Speaker 3: can ever get to the level of player that he
Speaker 3: needs to be to carry a team that doesn't have
Speaker 3: everything right. We were waiting every year for the Chargers
Speaker 3: to get everything right around him, and at some point
Speaker 3: I have to be like, well, can you have any
Speaker 3: success in the postseason when that isn't the case, because yeah,
Speaker 3: they haven't had perfect situations in the O line, neither
Speaker 3: neither did Drake May and neither did the Pagers. Yet
Speaker 3: you find ways and I think they're well coached. I
Speaker 3: think all these other things are these other excuses that
Speaker 3: it maybe exists in the past, aren't there right now.
Speaker 3: So I'm just waiting for him to prove that he
Speaker 3: belongs to in the tier with these other guys. I
Speaker 3: think I think you can say he's top of the
Speaker 3: next tier in my mind, and I'm like, yeah, totally
Speaker 3: get it. I have two guys out of him that
Speaker 3: I think there's an absolutely in that next tier that
Speaker 3: I think there's an absolute argument for. I would just
Speaker 3: say with him, I think that if he's going to
Speaker 3: be in the top tier, I have to be able
Speaker 3: to I can't point to the postseason and say, you
Speaker 3: were one of the worst playoff quarterbacks I've seen. And
Speaker 3: that's tough. Three times, that's tough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 1: I NFL history players that have shown his level of
Speaker 1: regular season play, The history of it is just like
Speaker 1: it'll click at some point.
Speaker 2: Maybe it was a little bit of a mental thing.
Speaker 1: He was like over over correcting, trying not to make
Speaker 1: a mistake, and then started to make more mistakes because
Speaker 1: of that holding on to the ball. It wasn't great
Speaker 1: and yet, but I would say, yes, I think he'll
Speaker 1: be able to make things work and well, because I've
Speaker 1: seen it. To me, it's a better sample size over
Speaker 1: the sixteen games. Winning eleven games repeatedly with a lot
Speaker 1: of the things that's been going on around him has
Speaker 1: proven it to me.
Speaker 2: And it's the mobility. I want a quarterback that can run.
Speaker 1: And yet I do feel like we're going to get
Speaker 1: some angry rams fans that Stafford here at number seven.
Speaker 3: Stafford's my next guy. I actually had him at I
Speaker 3: had him fifth. I mean I had Burrows sixth. But
Speaker 3: they're all in the same tier, and I think you
Speaker 3: can certainly make an argument for their anyway, and I
Speaker 3: won't fight you. The reason for me was Stafford. I
Speaker 3: didn't think it was unbelievable in the playoffs on the stretch,
Speaker 3: like as much as he's been maybe in the past playoffs,
Speaker 3: but I still think the.
Speaker 1: Versus the Seahawks, I will not I will not mark
Speaker 1: him down at allfer that Seahawcks gave the Ed more.
Speaker 1: He had something like more deep yardage in that game
Speaker 1: than any quarterback or one of the biggest ones of
Speaker 1: the last like eight or nine years.
Speaker 3: The beginning of that game, I was like, uh oh,
Speaker 3: like we might be at the end, and then he
Speaker 3: just rallied and made like six unreal throws and it
Speaker 3: was maybe like the full best game. But the throws
Speaker 3: he did make for and saying, and that's where you
Speaker 3: get to with him, were just the accuracy to high
Speaker 3: degree difficulty, parts of the field, and the mental stuff
Speaker 3: you trust with him. So as long as that's still
Speaker 3: the case, I worry less about unless he has an
Speaker 3: injury that actually keeps him from playing. I worry less
Speaker 3: about physical drop off and decline because I physical drop
Speaker 3: off and decline doesn't usually affect the arm strength of
Speaker 3: a quarterback unless there's an injury involved. You know, you
Speaker 3: think of Peyton Manning, Drew Brees better outspurt. All these
Speaker 3: guys had injuries that eventually led to some of that falloff.
Speaker 3: It wasn't necessarily just like, oh they got old in
Speaker 3: their arms, they still being able to throw the ad Like,
Speaker 3: I don't think that's gonna happen with Matt Stafford. So
Speaker 3: obviously you worry some about injuries with anybody court player
Speaker 3: gets older. But he realized it missed that much time,
Speaker 3: Like I mean, you know, he's I think still accuracy wise,
Speaker 3: high degree difficulty throws down the field, the whole field
Speaker 3: being open to him at any point, play action, pure
Speaker 3: drop back. He can play within an offensive system that's
Speaker 3: proven to be extremely successful in the league, and adapt
Speaker 3: within the system as well. Mental aptitude, leadership. I think
Speaker 3: all these things are in place, and he's not unbelievable athlete,
Speaker 3: and I think but I think they've obviously he's been
Speaker 3: one of the best situations in the league his whole
Speaker 3: entire time he's been with the Rams, that's basically been
Speaker 3: the case. So there's a lot going for him, but
Speaker 3: also there's a lot asked of him too, Like this
Speaker 3: isn't a cookie cutter offense that doesn't ask things of him.
Speaker 3: They ask tough things of him, and he delivers tough things.
Speaker 3: So to me, he's definitely in that Tier one conversation,
Speaker 3: and I think in a given playoff run stretch of football,
Speaker 3: you can really make it argument he's the best guy
Speaker 3: in the league. I mean, obviously MVP speaks to that
Speaker 3: as well, so I think because of that, he still
Speaker 3: remains in this tier, although with him the downside perhaps
Speaker 3: is more significant the other guys, even in a one
Speaker 3: year because the injury component and just the always the
Speaker 3: back and this and that, and the offseason this is happening,
Speaker 3: and you know, retirement's looming, and you know this all
Speaker 3: this kind of chatter that seems to follow him less
Speaker 3: so this offseason, but you know, you would guess that
Speaker 3: that is going to catch up at some point with him,
Speaker 3: and so maybe it's a little bit of a risk
Speaker 3: in that capacity, but if he's healthy, I have very
Speaker 3: little question that he'll be one of the best quarterbacks
Speaker 3: in the league.
Speaker 1: Agree, And yet I did try to remember, like, what
Speaker 1: would I have thought last year coming into this point?
Speaker 1: Would I have thought in twenty twenty four coming into
Speaker 1: this point? And I do think it's okay to understand
Speaker 1: that there's been ups and downs with Stafford within seasons
Speaker 1: and generally going into seasons. I've never viewed him as
Speaker 1: like a top five guy. He's always right on that edge,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like I have him here at sixth
Speaker 1: or seventh around where I'd have him most of the
Speaker 1: last last handful of years.
Speaker 2: And I'm not going.
Speaker 1: Crazy changing it because of the MVP season, because that
Speaker 1: was the best I've ever seen him play. And so
Speaker 1: at thirty eight years old, is he going to stay
Speaker 1: at that very high level?
Speaker 2: Maybe he will.
Speaker 1: I mean, Rogers was winning back to back MVPs around
Speaker 1: this age, and Brady's still had about five more elite
Speaker 1: years left at this age, so it's totally possible. And
Speaker 1: I'm probably selling him short. And he has replaced Burrow.
Speaker 1: I think as the guy that you're just most afraid
Speaker 1: to blitz, the numbers against the blitz last year are
Speaker 1: just like outrageous. For Matthew Stafford, he has seen it all.
Speaker 1: All right, it's time for the offseason ride along, presented
Speaker 1: by Toyota. I'm going to go with Dak Prescott next.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he was in your group.
Speaker 3: He was actually next for me. I mean I had him.
Speaker 3: He was one of the guys I had ahead of
Speaker 3: Herbert that I think is just really open for conversation,
Speaker 3: I think, and I can see the pushback and yeah,
Speaker 3: so's he was next for me too. I'm glad we
Speaker 3: kind of see this similarly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I you just know what you're gonna get, and
Speaker 1: you know you're gonna get a guy who is not
Speaker 1: afraid to throw every possible route that's on the field.
Speaker 1: He attempted the most tight window throws in the NFL
Speaker 1: that the Cowboys actually had the fewest amount of separation
Speaker 1: on attempts, which is not surprising.
Speaker 2: They use play action more.
Speaker 1: I felt like he produced better in part because they
Speaker 1: gave him a few more easy buttons, But it doesn't
Speaker 1: change how next level he thinks of the game. He
Speaker 1: is very much that old, you know, Peyton Manning style
Speaker 1: of quarterback, which is great to still see in the league.
Speaker 1: I mean, Matthew Stafford is very often that that type
Speaker 1: of player too, And I just feel like I know
Speaker 1: who Dak Prescott is. I can go win a super
Speaker 1: Bowl with Dak Prescott, certainly if I have the right
Speaker 1: support around him. If we can win one with Sam Darnold, John,
Speaker 1: you know, we can win a couple with Dak.
Speaker 2: He just needs the help.
Speaker 1: And I feel very comfortable when he drops back to
Speaker 1: pass the decisions that he's going to make.
Speaker 3: I do too, And I know that it's not always perfect,
Speaker 3: but I think his accuracy, his timing when he's locked
Speaker 3: in mentally and in the flow. He's a little bit
Speaker 3: of a rhythm guy, but my gosh, is it good
Speaker 3: when he's in the rhythm. Like I've seen him takeover games.
Speaker 3: I've seen him dominate. I've seen him make high degree
Speaker 3: difficulty throws down the field. I've everyone's gonna say, well,
Speaker 3: what about in the playoffs? Why hasn't he done in
Speaker 3: the playoffs? And there's lots of reasons and answers, So
Speaker 3: that's some At times, it has been his play. I
Speaker 3: don't think he's been anywhere close to as bad as
Speaker 3: some other guys in the playoffs. I also think that
Speaker 3: that's the conversation we're in. We're outside of the top
Speaker 3: tier now for me, and so the conversation we're in
Speaker 3: is guys that like, yeah, they haven't necessarily been utterly
Speaker 3: dominant in the playoffs. They haven't won super Bowls or
Speaker 3: maybe been the key reason for their team winning a
Speaker 3: super Bowl. We'll get to some guys that have won
Speaker 3: super Bowls, but we you know, they haven't answered that question.
Speaker 3: That question exists about their career. So for evaluating them
Speaker 3: within the context of NFL history valid, but within the
Speaker 3: context of this tier, Like, I just don't see it
Speaker 3: as a compelling point. I think more about Okay, if
Speaker 3: I can't have one of these in the elite tier,
Speaker 3: then what am I getting? What kind of a player
Speaker 3: do I want? I want someone who's cerebral. I want
Speaker 3: someone who's accurate. I want someone who makes difficult throws
Speaker 3: down the field. Now, you can raise questions about Dak
Speaker 3: in other ways, like if you know when the protection
Speaker 3: hasn't been great, has he relied on his legs enough,
Speaker 3: has he played to his athleticism enough, when he's at
Speaker 3: his best, he does he does do those things. So
Speaker 3: I again I have seen those things with him. Is
Speaker 3: there inconsistencies at times? Sometimes? Is there? You know, he
Speaker 3: he gets a little bit I think risk taking in
Speaker 3: some of the throws that he takes, and maybe he
Speaker 3: doesn't make all these the best decisions in certain ruts.
Speaker 3: Again when he gets into his play, that's possible. But
Speaker 3: I think you don't have many consistently bad habits with
Speaker 3: Dak that you're just gonna every single game. He's just
Speaker 3: outside the structure of what you're doing, like some of
Speaker 3: these other guys who have maybe better peaks than Dak,
Speaker 3: but like the downside is just so much worse. Dak
Speaker 3: is going to have you in that thing every year
Speaker 3: if he's healthy and if the rest of your team
Speaker 3: is competent, and there's just not a lot of that
Speaker 3: you can say that about like he individually is that
Speaker 3: good when you know he's had been banged up two
Speaker 3: at times? So I still feel like as much as
Speaker 3: we've moved around, I think he's been eight nine, seven,
Speaker 3: somewhere in the seven to ten range for me basically
Speaker 3: every year since he really got onto the map, So
Speaker 3: I still feel pretty strongly about him being in this group.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy to think how good he was immediately,
Speaker 1: and he's obviously developed and matured.
Speaker 2: As a player.
Speaker 1: And look he was he was second in the MVP
Speaker 1: just what three seasons ago and last season he has
Speaker 1: one of the most productive offenses when he's out there,
Speaker 1: and I'm excited because I do think he's getting more
Speaker 1: help from the coaching staff. I like this marriage with
Speaker 1: Brian Schottenheimer. And that was the off season ride along
Speaker 1: presented by Toyota because when people are the destination, your
Speaker 1: ride is important. Learn more at Toyota dot com and
Speaker 1: find the vehicle that fits your people. So you said
Speaker 1: you had like a little group of three, You had
Speaker 1: a couple guys ahead of Herbert, and I want you
Speaker 1: to disagree. Don't don't be happy that you see things
Speaker 1: the same way with me as Dak tell me that
Speaker 1: I'm an idiot, that I got Herbert way too high.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I might have needed reassurance on that one
Speaker 3: because I was like, I'm like this tier, it's hard
Speaker 3: to sort out. But I just feel better about how
Speaker 3: Dak's performed in big moments postseas. I think I trust
Speaker 3: him a little more than I do Herbert. So I
Speaker 3: know you have Herbert, I have I have Jordan love
Speaker 3: between Dak and Herbert for me, so he would be
Speaker 3: so he'd be eighth for me. And this is what
Speaker 3: I'm torn onto. I mean, I didn't see it with
Speaker 3: Dak as a prospect, this this quarterback ranking. Basically, by
Speaker 3: the way, when you asked me to do this, it's
Speaker 3: funny because it's just littered with all the players I
Speaker 3: was too low. I'm pre drafted. Now they're only leading
Speaker 3: players like Dak. I mean, obviously nobody saw that one
Speaker 3: coming to Josh Allen, Dustin, Herbert, like none of these
Speaker 3: guys I thought were like unbelievable in college. Jordan loves
Speaker 3: another one of those guys. But I've just really been impressed.
Speaker 3: I think the poise that he shows too. I think
Speaker 3: the fact that he avoids negative plays to the degree
Speaker 3: that he does is really compelling to me. Gives his
Speaker 3: team a fighting chance. I think when they've if they
Speaker 3: had been able to stay healthy this season, we might
Speaker 3: be singing even a higher song than this one about
Speaker 3: his ranking. I really think that because I don't think
Speaker 3: he individually has been like usually the reason for why
Speaker 3: they have struggled as a team. I think, honestly, they
Speaker 3: got pretty banged up last year, pretty unlucky. They had
Speaker 3: a window to really do something and it sort of
Speaker 3: fell apart for them with some of the injuries to
Speaker 3: Craft and Parsons and others. But I think with him,
Speaker 3: the thing that impresses me the most is you can
Speaker 3: design an offense. And this is big I'm going to
Speaker 3: emphasize this. With a lot of these guys that are
Speaker 3: in this next group. You can design an offense around them,
Speaker 3: and they consistently play within the structure of the offense,
Speaker 3: and they can make high degree difficulty plays and between
Speaker 3: all those things. Are there issues at times? Are there
Speaker 3: foibles at times? Do you have with them sometimes? Do
Speaker 3: they make questionable decisions and risk taking things to the ball? Yes,
Speaker 3: there's some of that with all these guys. But I
Speaker 3: would rather have the combination of high end potential, even
Speaker 3: for a run, that you get from guys who can
Speaker 3: be creators and make high degree difficulty throws in plays
Speaker 3: within an offense, and that consistently keep their offense on
Speaker 3: schedule and play within the structure of the offense and
Speaker 3: are constantly trying to go into hero mode, constantly trying
Speaker 3: to get away from what their coach has told him
Speaker 3: to do, constantly trying to create outside of what the
Speaker 3: rest of the team, the other ten on the field
Speaker 3: are doing, and just playing in their own world. There's
Speaker 3: guys who are great talents, but they don't consistently play
Speaker 3: that way. Jordan Love's ability to actually buy into a system,
Speaker 3: master the system mentally work to the degree that he
Speaker 3: does that has been the thing that's won me over
Speaker 3: more so than the arm and the wild throws that
Speaker 3: everybody talks about. He has those, certainly, but I knew
Speaker 3: those were in there. It's the other stuff, the floor
Speaker 3: just being way higher. I actually don't think he's that
Speaker 3: risky of a quarterback compared to like what his reputation
Speaker 3: sometimes is. I know he's had some bad ones and
Speaker 3: eygh profile moments, but I don't think he's like throwing
Speaker 3: the ball to the other team ten times a game
Speaker 3: kind of reckless in his game. So I just think
Speaker 3: he's brought the floor up and that hasn't been acknowledged,
Speaker 3: and maybe the ceiling isn't, you know, elite tier guy
Speaker 3: in the league but I think the floor is pretty high,
Speaker 3: and I still think the ceiling's higher than a lot
Speaker 3: of other guys.
Speaker 1: I do have some knits to pick with that argument,
Speaker 1: because to me, hey, the ceiling is that high. I mean,
Speaker 1: I do think he could put it all together and
Speaker 1: and have an MVP top five type of run because
Speaker 1: I think last year he really started to reduce his mistakes.
Speaker 1: That was where I'm totally on board with you that
Speaker 1: he was not a risk taker last year.
Speaker 2: I thought he was a different quarterback in that way.
Speaker 1: It shows up in the turnover where he played percentage,
Speaker 1: but it just it showed up in my watching of
Speaker 1: his film that I just thought he did not really
Speaker 1: lose much of his big playmaking while just making much
Speaker 1: better decisions.
Speaker 2: And anyone that went.
Speaker 1: To kill him for the playoffs, I mean he threw
Speaker 1: four touchdowns in the playoffs. Like it was like for
Speaker 1: a bad relatively bad playoff game. It was like he
Speaker 1: was not the reason that they lost. To me, he
Speaker 1: was he was fine in that playoff game. He was
Speaker 1: great on big plays last year. If he had the
Speaker 1: best success rate and explosive play rate on third downs,
Speaker 1: you know his EPA per play and success rate all
Speaker 1: that QBR all that would you would put him right
Speaker 1: there with Stafford and May as the best like numbers,
Speaker 1: just pure numbers in the league, and I think context
Speaker 1: it's okay to add to that. Probably the biggest context
Speaker 1: I would add, and this is what he needs to do,
Speaker 1: I think to get to that elite here, more than
Speaker 1: anything is he was a lot worse under pressure last year,
Speaker 1: Like you think Jared Goff is kind of the example
Speaker 1: of the guy whose numbers get significantly worse under pressure.
Speaker 1: Everyone's pressure numbers get worse, but it's even more dramatic
Speaker 1: for golf. Love was probably the most dramatic guy in
Speaker 1: the entire NFL last season. Not sure why that is exactly.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of just holding onto the ball and
Speaker 1: throwing it away and just hoping something happens. Maybe it's
Speaker 1: just a tick slower processing than maybe some of the
Speaker 1: top guys. He wasn't making catastrophic plays, but basically if
Speaker 1: you got near him, he turned into a below average
Speaker 1: quarterback last year.
Speaker 3: Yeah. That The plus with him is that you don't
Speaker 3: see him take a lot of sacks. The negative with
Speaker 3: him is that I don't think he's a great creator
Speaker 3: Outside of structure, and I think that's where a lot
Speaker 3: of people thought the tools would be always his great
Speaker 3: But he's not been a great or will or very
Speaker 3: willing scrambler, and I have questions about that. And I
Speaker 3: have questions about just when he does have to go
Speaker 3: into a hero mode and sort of make those types
Speaker 3: of big end plays outside the pocket, things like that.
Speaker 3: Can he be that guy consistently? I think is a
Speaker 3: valid question with him. So I agree with you. Now,
Speaker 3: he's pretty good at staying. I mean, last year's offensive
Speaker 3: line situation probably is under discussed in Green Bay, and
Speaker 3: even this year moving into the season, I have major
Speaker 3: questions about that group. There are some real questions in
Speaker 3: Green Bay. It might not be talked about enough. But
Speaker 3: I would say that just his ability, I mean, the
Speaker 3: turnover wheth they play, number coming down this past season,
Speaker 3: the percentage of him, just the fact that he's not,
Speaker 3: throughout any season of his career been a guy who
Speaker 3: takes a ton of sacks or puts his team behind
Speaker 3: the sticks in a lot of ways. Gives his team
Speaker 3: more of a chance to sustain drives, and I think
Speaker 3: is a big reason why their offense is always elite.
Speaker 3: The floor is a big part of that. Jordan loves
Speaker 3: a big part of that. Their offense is always one
Speaker 3: of the best in the league. Health has been a factor,
Speaker 3: Lots of other things have been a factor for them,
Speaker 3: but this range, I feel really comfortable taking Jordan Love here.
Speaker 3: I never thought that would be the case when they
Speaker 3: drafted him. So another success story we didn't see coming this.
Speaker 3: The top ten is littered with these greg It's pretty awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I liked the Love pick when they made it, and
Speaker 1: I liked even the process of it, and even then,
Speaker 1: after watching him in his first couple of preseasons, I'm
Speaker 1: stunned because he was a different player early in his career,
Speaker 1: and it does show you for some quarterbacks, man, this
Speaker 1: sort of development path can still help you a lot.
Speaker 1: I don't think his career would be the same if
Speaker 1: he had to play early. He's doing the nineteen seventies
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties mold, where I think it really helped him out.
Speaker 1: This so, to me, I thought it was a very
Speaker 1: clear top nine. At least for me, that was it.
Speaker 1: We've taken those nine and I felt like it was
Speaker 1: a pretty big drop off and that the draft almost
Speaker 1: starts at ten, and I just have massive question marks
Speaker 1: next to the guy I wrote down at number ten,
Speaker 1: and I feel a little cheapish about it because I
Speaker 1: have to just come to terms with the fact, John,
Speaker 1: there's a big state for me that I've become a
Speaker 1: brock pretty guy. I know you're not gonna like it.
Speaker 1: I know plenty of people aren't gonna like it. I
Speaker 1: don't care. I'm gonna go with I'm gonna go with
Speaker 1: my what my heart is telling me right now. I
Speaker 1: think he's dialed back his mistakes quite a bit. He
Speaker 1: was holding the ball a lot longer while taking less sacks.
Speaker 1: The numbers are obviously ridiculous, and I know that's very
Speaker 1: scheme dependent. Like he's second in QBR, he's always first
Speaker 1: or second, and EPA per play success rate last year was,
Speaker 1: you know, incredible. I know Jimmy Garoppolo had all those
Speaker 1: numbers too. My eyes tell me something different, that something
Speaker 1: different is happening here, and that he's gotten significantly better
Speaker 1: each season in terms of his processing, his ability to
Speaker 1: give you a little extra by making plays and in
Speaker 1: a different way than Dak Prescott. I feel pretty comfortable,
Speaker 1: and ultimately that was the tiebreaker between him and then
Speaker 1: four or five guys who I have all very close, Like,
Speaker 1: I feel good about what he's going to give me
Speaker 1: on a week to week basis. And I don't think
Speaker 1: we give him the grace because he was a seventh
Speaker 1: round pick that he's a young player. That's I think
Speaker 1: consistently improved each and every season, and I'm projecting that
Speaker 1: improvement into this a little bit like seventh round picks
Speaker 1: can continue to get better and better and better and
Speaker 1: better too. And to me, his floor is high, and
Speaker 1: I think the ceilings a little higher than other people
Speaker 1: want to admit, especially people like myself who I was
Speaker 1: not buying it in that quote unquote MVP campaign season
Speaker 1: against Lamar Jackson. I think he's a significantly better player
Speaker 1: right now than he was even two years ago.
Speaker 3: I like brock Party, He's not quite this high for me,
Speaker 3: but I think you can make an argument that he
Speaker 3: should be maybe a little bit higher than where I
Speaker 3: have him. I have him fifteenth. Here here's what I'd say,
Speaker 3: Why isn't it Jared Goff? What and Jared Goff to
Speaker 3: me is in the tier that you talked about, the
Speaker 3: tier ending at nine. Why isn't Jared Goff?
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's next on my list.
Speaker 3: Okay, so he's next, So he'd be next for me obviously,
Speaker 3: And I don't want to jump ahead too much, but
Speaker 3: I don't need to talk about golf. Could But I
Speaker 3: just thinking about golf compared to Purty and thinking about
Speaker 3: a couple of different factors to me. Like for me,
Speaker 3: Jared Goff, I love the fact that he doesn't take
Speaker 3: a ton of sacks, right Like I love the fact
Speaker 3: that there's this quick release play within the structure of
Speaker 3: the offense. Know your limitations, get out of there when
Speaker 3: you need to. Yes, the physical tools are on anything amazing,
Speaker 3: but the actoracy, the execution for years, the ability to
Speaker 3: run high profile NFL offense that's proven to be successful
Speaker 3: across the league, the ability to limit negative plays. I
Speaker 3: think there's a couple of games, one or two games
Speaker 3: every year where you see some of those pop up.
Speaker 3: But for the most part, he's limited a lot of
Speaker 3: the low end stuff and had a lot of the
Speaker 3: high end stuff playing with the structure if they don't
Speaker 3: have one of the unluckiest none of which was really
Speaker 3: his fault playoff moments second albs that we've ever seen.
Speaker 3: He's in the super Bowl for the second time, in
Speaker 3: his career, Like he's proven it in the playoffs that
Speaker 3: he can play like at that same level and like
Speaker 3: at the moment isn't too big for him. So I
Speaker 3: still have him in that tier with the other guys,
Speaker 3: and I know that he's not sexy, and I know
Speaker 3: that he's not a lot of people are looking for
Speaker 3: Australia at this is the story you're scouting. But I
Speaker 3: just think when you put on the tape, he gets it.
Speaker 3: He freaking gets it done. And I really appreciate his
Speaker 3: game way more than I thought I would a couple
Speaker 3: of years ago when he finished with the Rams.
Speaker 2: Look, he is exactly who everyone thinks he is.
Speaker 1: He leads the league and in breaking routes there's a
Speaker 1: ton of yak. The the numbers when he's clean are
Speaker 1: just exceptional.
Speaker 2: I mean, he is going to kill you. Let's talk
Speaker 2: about them together.
Speaker 1: You could throw eleven up for Gough because I think
Speaker 1: it's an interesting conversation just comparing the two of them.
Speaker 1: The answer would be that I think Purty still has
Speaker 1: levels to go. Potentially, I'm betting the little on a
Speaker 1: mystery box where I feel like I know who Goff
Speaker 1: is and then it's it's the creation, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's the idea when things aren't going well, and things
Speaker 1: were not going well for that forty nine Ers team
Speaker 1: last year. I've really been impressed the last couple of
Speaker 1: seasons when Perdy's been out there and healthy of his
Speaker 1: ability to make those around him better. It is is
Speaker 1: very close between those two, and goff is maybe a
Speaker 1: little bit of a of a safer pick, but that
Speaker 1: that's it, that he can. He's what Kyle Sanahan wanted,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, a guy who can also create
Speaker 1: some plays on his own.
Speaker 3: And maybe you're maybe listeners are hearing the stylistic differences
Speaker 3: maybe between a little bit of what we gravitated to,
Speaker 3: because you're one hundred percent right, Brock Purty obviously way
Speaker 3: better out of structure than Jared Goff is, and I
Speaker 3: would say Jared Goff way better within the structure. I
Speaker 3: think I gravitated first toward that guy because I trust
Speaker 3: that guy to get it done within the structure without
Speaker 3: needing to play in this creation mode. And I think
Speaker 3: with Perty he definitely can play in the creation mode
Speaker 3: more I worry that he stays there too often. Last
Speaker 3: year's Time to Throw has me really scared just throughout
Speaker 3: his career in some ways as he's played more and
Speaker 3: some of that has been you know, I think it
Speaker 3: was it was a mixed bag a little bit in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four last year he's banged up, and then
Speaker 3: when he did play there's obviously really good things about
Speaker 3: I played in the regular season. I worry about the
Speaker 3: turner where he plays those can come in bunches for him.
Speaker 3: The percentage of times where he gets all the other team.
Speaker 3: I don't trust him to the degree that I trust
Speaker 3: Jared Goff. And then he does a great job of
Speaker 3: avoiding sacks, which I love about him. He really can't
Speaker 3: create like he is a really fun player to watch
Speaker 3: in a lot of ways, he's more exciting to watch,
Speaker 3: and I think because he is this kind of I
Speaker 3: don't want to say boring personalty, but just kind of
Speaker 3: like he's not a like you don't put the mic
Speaker 3: in front of him and I'm like, oh man, this guy,
Speaker 3: let's go. Like, but the way he plays is really compelling,
Speaker 3: I think from a viewership perspective. But then I mean
Speaker 3: the three point twenty two second time to throw, like
Speaker 3: it's just like that was where he lived last year.
Speaker 2: And that's what happens with Jake Ton just as your
Speaker 2: number one.
Speaker 1: I mean, I hear you that he gets helped so
Speaker 1: much by the scheme, but I also think, you know,
Speaker 1: it should be recognized that like Pearce all is in
Speaker 1: and out last year, Kit Kit Kittle, I guess it
Speaker 1: was in it out. It wasn't until the end of
Speaker 1: the year that he was out out. You know, you
Speaker 1: have Juwan Jennings a little in and out last year.
Speaker 1: I mean, for for a part of the season, it
Speaker 1: was really Mac Jones making Kendrick Bourne happen. But I
Speaker 1: think that was part of the reason why he's holding
Speaker 1: on to the ball too long. And I think some
Speaker 1: of the things you can knock him for, like we
Speaker 1: could talk about with Caleb, who I'm sure is going
Speaker 1: to come up fairly soon too, And uh yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that's it. But the fact that for the most part,
Speaker 1: I think he's gotten better at being a little safer,
Speaker 1: but maybe you're right that he gets a little too
Speaker 1: much dip on his chip every now and then.
Speaker 3: And both are really good. I mean they're probably in
Speaker 3: these conversation of quarterbacks that you're like, well, can they
Speaker 3: ever can their good peaks, are they enough basically to
Speaker 3: get you to the top. And that's been the question
Speaker 3: with Perdy because when the Niners have been good, and
Speaker 3: it'll probably continue to be the question with Jared Goff.
Speaker 3: Obviously mcveighen thinks so moved to Matt Stafford. Certainly in
Speaker 3: many ways he was right out of Stafford Hire. He's
Speaker 3: a better player than Golf. But I think the idea
Speaker 3: that Goff's still like still where he's gotten to in
Speaker 3: his career has been pretty unbelievable to me, considering there
Speaker 3: are these like very clear limitations with this game. They're like,
Speaker 3: he can't play all the different ways, and so to me,
Speaker 3: the accuracy, but then also the functional execution within the offense.
Speaker 3: Now things can fall apart for Jared Goff two at times.
Speaker 3: You know, it usually is one or two games a
Speaker 3: season rather than just like these rash stretches of play.
Speaker 3: But I I for like weeks and weeks and weeks
Speaker 3: on end. But I would say that when he's at
Speaker 3: his best, which I think most of the time, he's
Speaker 3: able to play his game in most of formats in
Speaker 3: the league, you know, he's again we're talking about a
Speaker 3: tier of quarterbacks that probably aren't like carrying your team
Speaker 3: in the playoffs, but they're guys that you trust that
Speaker 3: operate the offense at a really high level. Obviously, when
Speaker 3: it's been his best in Detroit, it's been a really
Speaker 3: good offense, and he operated that at an extremely high
Speaker 3: and efficient level for several years, and last year they
Speaker 3: fall upon hard times just kind of in general, but
Speaker 3: I give him a lot of credit for his operation
Speaker 3: of that offense and his ability to maximize that system.
Speaker 3: It was really such a great marriage with him and
Speaker 3: Ben Johnson in so many different ways. And now there's questions,
Speaker 3: and they'll be questions again. I think he's proven kind
Speaker 3: of who he is as a quarterback, and it's up
Speaker 3: to if this is your guy, and there's not many
Speaker 3: guys better than them in the league. Even if you
Speaker 3: want to say he's never going to be a top guy,
Speaker 3: and I think that's fair, I don't he'll never be
Speaker 3: somebody that we talk about in tier one, whereas some
Speaker 3: of these other guys, even ahead of him and maybe
Speaker 3: behind him, have a clear chance to be a number one,
Speaker 3: be it, to be in that top tier at some
Speaker 3: point in their careers if they keep progressing. And that's
Speaker 3: probably off the table for Jared Goff, but who he
Speaker 3: is is something a lot of teams would have benefited.
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of teams that could have won
Speaker 3: and been in Super Bowls if they had a quarterback
Speaker 3: as clean as him that ended up being postseason disappointments
Speaker 3: because their guy wasn't up to the up to the
Speaker 3: up to par the way that he's been.
Speaker 1: I think even in the playoffs, it's all totally fair.
Speaker 1: It's still wild to have traded away Matthew Stafford and
Speaker 1: have a case for did we win that trade? You know,
Speaker 1: for everything that it's set up for the Detroit Lions
Speaker 1: and getting golf as not a throw in, but as
Speaker 1: something that they basically didn't have to give up any
Speaker 1: value for because of his contract is incredible. I am
Speaker 1: struggling here with my next pick. You know, you have
Speaker 1: the class that twenty four guys and Caleb and Jayden
Speaker 1: in the mix for this season and alone, I do
Speaker 1: feel good about Trevor Lawrence. I've never been a Trevor
Speaker 1: Lawrence guy in general. Seventeen, even last season where it
Speaker 1: was kind of a breakout season, how it ended, he
Speaker 1: was seventeenth in success rate, below average and in completion
Speaker 1: percentage over expected. In QBR the stat profile wasn't like incredible,
Speaker 1: but the closing stretch was excellent. He was under pressure
Speaker 1: a lot, and he takes sacks. I want to see
Speaker 1: it again, and yet I do have a feeling and
Speaker 1: maybe I'm falling a little bit for the offseason. Oki
Speaker 1: dooke that year two of Liam Cohen, it's gonna lock in.
Speaker 1: He's never maybe had the quarterback instincts for lack of
Speaker 1: a better word, that you want to see out of
Speaker 1: your elite guy that he has to maybe be in
Speaker 1: the right system. He is now in the right system,
Speaker 1: and I think this is going to be a really
Speaker 1: strong twenty twenty six for Trevor Lawrence.
Speaker 3: Hmm, okay, a little bit of a difference here. I
Speaker 3: have Trevor Lawrence seventeenth For me, I am a fan.
Speaker 3: Last year the progress was exciting to me. I still
Speaker 3: have some questions. I still think that he's less than
Speaker 3: the sum of his parts, which has kind of been
Speaker 3: the story of his career so far, as like this
Speaker 3: guy is all the talent in the world but just
Speaker 3: doesn't quite hasn't quite put it together consistently. What happened
Speaker 3: for Jacksonville with adding Liam Cohen, adding Jacoby Myers, Brenton
Speaker 3: Strange's breakout, even with Brian Thomas having this down year,
Speaker 3: Travis Cunner getting heard and not really being a huge
Speaker 3: offensive weapon right away, What's position is he going to play?
Speaker 3: Even with that, I think that Trevor Lawrence the ability
Speaker 3: that they had as an offense to open up the
Speaker 3: middle of the field for him, and for the first
Speaker 3: time in his career, he became a guy that would
Speaker 3: confidently throw the ball between the numbers, between ash and
Speaker 3: the middle of the field and make those throws with anticipation.
Speaker 3: That is the most interesting thing to me with Trevor Lawrence.
Speaker 3: I think a lot of the other foibles in his
Speaker 3: game remained the same, and like you still has there's
Speaker 3: still some recklessness to him at times. There's some panic
Speaker 3: to him at times, I think, and there's some things
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily like. But if he becomes a guy
Speaker 3: who can off the play action, off the systems that
Speaker 3: Liam Cohen creates, will now throw the ball to every
Speaker 3: area of the field, my interest in him goes way
Speaker 3: up as a quarterback because I think he's going to
Speaker 3: lock himself into being a tier two guys how I
Speaker 3: put it basically, and then who knows from there where
Speaker 3: it'll go if he can iron out some of the
Speaker 3: other things in his game. But for most of his
Speaker 3: career he's just has never been consistent or confident thrown
Speaker 3: in the middle of the field, throwing with anticipation, throwing
Speaker 3: in there, throwing accurately, throwing on time, reading defenses there,
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera. It just hasn't happened for him,
Speaker 3: and that is I think the area of the field
Speaker 3: that most quarterback if you're talking about how do you
Speaker 3: go from being okay or good to great and moving
Speaker 3: up tiers at quarterback play, Being able to throw in
Speaker 3: that area of the field consistently at a high level
Speaker 3: is a big differentiator, and that wasn't the case for
Speaker 3: him until that trade. For Myers. You can see all
Speaker 3: the numbers. You can see their success rate as a
Speaker 3: passing attack. You can see their drop back, their EPA
Speaker 3: per dropback in the ten to nineteen yard range. Between
Speaker 3: the numbers, everything skyrockets and goes up. You can watch
Speaker 3: the tape and watch him throw the ball there. He
Speaker 3: finally had at players that he trusted there and that
Speaker 3: was a big part of it, but also he bought in.
Speaker 3: He bought it to the system, and I think there
Speaker 3: were really good things with him now. Consistency is a
Speaker 3: big factor. It just hasn't been there for him to
Speaker 3: really all levels of the field before last year second
Speaker 3: half of the season was the best we've ever seen him.
Speaker 3: I'm a huge Liam going believer. Maybe they can get
Speaker 3: everything else right around him to where this kind of
Speaker 3: ends up looking bad for me because he's just going
Speaker 3: to play way better within everything finally being right, and
Speaker 3: he's frankly, it's been a disaster around him for a
Speaker 3: lot of his career so far. But I think he's
Speaker 3: got the best chance of anybody to like rise up
Speaker 3: this or these ranks pretty much from this range where
Speaker 3: I have him up higher than this because of the
Speaker 3: factors around him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had him fourteenth, So I don't know why
Speaker 1: I'm reaching even on my own board, but when I
Speaker 1: looked at him compared to some of the younger guys,
Speaker 1: I am giving a little bit of an edge to
Speaker 1: everything that he's seen in the NFL that they have
Speaker 1: not that I think some of the younger quarterbacks are
Speaker 1: going to go through some ups and downs and I
Speaker 1: do think he's going to be in a little bit
Speaker 1: of a sweet spot of having the right coach to
Speaker 1: help to navigate everything that defenses are throwing at him
Speaker 1: and em betting a little bit on it clicking. Like,
Speaker 1: I have never seen him as some generational prospect because
Speaker 1: of what you said, because of the inconsistent he just
Speaker 1: doesn't hit throws as much as you.
Speaker 2: Want him to hit it.
Speaker 1: It's a little maddening even when he has the right
Speaker 1: idea of when and where to go with it, Like
Speaker 1: he's often been a tick late, and I really did
Speaker 1: see that sort of improvement last year to the point
Speaker 1: where I'm like, Okay, I think him next to Goff
Speaker 1: is interesting because I do see them they're very different
Speaker 1: players but in the same sort of idea that if
Speaker 1: they are in the right scheme, and I think they
Speaker 1: both are right now, that you can win a lot
Speaker 1: of games with him.
Speaker 2: All Right, I'm curious where you go thirteenth.
Speaker 3: So for me, this guy was actually eleventh on my
Speaker 3: board and thirteenth now in our draft. But I had
Speaker 3: Jayden Daniels and I know last season he's a little
Speaker 3: bit of a hard one to crack because it's like well,
Speaker 3: last season. Everybody wanted to put him in five or
Speaker 3: six after the season, and he had this unbelievable season
Speaker 3: as a rookie, and it was it was a little
Speaker 3: bit of pumped the brakes, like, let's see what it
Speaker 3: looks like over larger sample size. We honestly didn't get
Speaker 3: that big much bigger of a sample size because he
Speaker 3: only had two hundred and forty four dropbacks last season,
Speaker 3: and really was he healthy for many of those in
Speaker 3: and out of the lineup. Played Week one and two, hurt,
Speaker 3: played a couple of weeks that hurt, then back for
Speaker 3: Week fourteen for reasons that no one understands, and you know,
Speaker 3: it just he was never really healthy last season. And
Speaker 3: so if that sustains, obviously this will look bad. But
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna assume that because there wasn't a major
Speaker 3: injury that took place here, that he's going to be
Speaker 3: healthy again. Maybe he just continues to have nagging injuries
Speaker 3: and that Durrell's his career, and you know, if that's
Speaker 3: how it is, But I mean, this guy is utterly
Speaker 3: brilliant as a rookie, like one of the best quarterbacks
Speaker 3: in the league. Not just doing cookie cutter stuff, lots
Speaker 3: of difficult throws, lots of difficult plays down the field,
Speaker 3: evolved as a full field player, I thought accurate to
Speaker 3: all levels of the field, great execute or great decision maker,
Speaker 3: you know. I thought that was probably an undersold part
Speaker 3: of it. Maybe is there like potential for him to
Speaker 3: be a guy that takes too many sacks? Maybe, but
Speaker 3: that's kind of true for these guys who are like
Speaker 3: unbelievable athletes at their position, that maybe they do that
Speaker 3: early in their career and then they kind of figure
Speaker 3: it out as they go. So I have some questions
Speaker 3: with him, But I also think the ceiling is way higher.
Speaker 3: So I'm really interested in that guy who I thought
Speaker 3: was clearly a top ten guy after his rookie season.
Speaker 3: I mean, he played at a top ten level, I
Speaker 3: should say that year, and you were like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: he could easily be in this conversation, I just thought
Speaker 3: last year he was hurt most of the time, and
Speaker 3: when he in, the situation around him was worse. They
Speaker 3: had other injuries as well, the Stuff and McLaurin in
Speaker 3: the offseason, and just like never getting back to where
Speaker 3: they were as a full offense. There was a lot
Speaker 3: of stuff, and I still didn't think he was like
Speaker 3: that bad, Like there were some things that were definitely concerned,
Speaker 3: but he wasn't like a disaster as all that happened,
Speaker 3: and then he was never healthy. So I just to me,
Speaker 3: I'm feeling like I'm not that much lower on them
Speaker 3: that I was coming out of his rookie season. I
Speaker 3: just want to see him play. I think it was
Speaker 3: one of the worst parts of last season that we
Speaker 3: didn't get to see this absolutely brilliant, likable leading the
Speaker 3: Commanders back after Snyder all this stuff, like it was
Speaker 3: just so fun, and then we just didn't get to
Speaker 3: see it last season really at all. And so they're
Speaker 3: like top of my league pass rankings, Like I can't
Speaker 3: wait to watch Washington. I think jayde Daniels is a star,
Speaker 3: and I hope that he still plays at that level.
Speaker 3: But he's the guy that I would want if I'm
Speaker 3: getting outside that tier, and I'm just like, who gives
Speaker 3: me the best chance to get into Tier two, tier one?
Speaker 3: Maybe even after the season, I would still take him
Speaker 3: over some of the other younger guys that we're probably
Speaker 3: about to discuss.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had him thirteen, So he ends up landing
Speaker 1: exactly where I had him in mind. My main issue
Speaker 1: with him because you can see the vision look in
Speaker 1: a perfect world, I mean, incredible accuracy and incredible decision
Speaker 1: making is quite a combination you can see, like in
Speaker 1: the highest of high outcomes for Jade Daniels, He's got
Speaker 1: a lot of Joe Burrow plus running to him, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, a league MVP type of player. My problem
Speaker 1: is I just haven't seen him in a normal offense
Speaker 1: yet in the NFL, so they're essentially like a no
Speaker 1: huddle offense. I think he'll be able to adjust, but
Speaker 1: he's trying to figure out when to run when not to.
Speaker 1: And it's just the injuries. It's the fact that it's
Speaker 1: not just his size, but that it was you know,
Speaker 1: a handful of different ones, that it's a hamstring, it's
Speaker 1: a knee, the elbow, I guess I'm less concerned about,
Speaker 1: but an elbow on a quarterback is obviously concerning. So
Speaker 1: that combination with his overall size is really the only
Speaker 1: reason why. Yeah, for me, like he's at thirteen and
Speaker 1: not in a higher tier. Just betting on that ceiling,
Speaker 1: I'll pair him with Caleb Williams next at fourteen. I
Speaker 1: think we probably I don't want to speak for you,
Speaker 1: but you know, I almost don't know what to do
Speaker 1: with Caleb Williams at this point of his career because like,
Speaker 1: the reason he has to put on the Superman cape
Speaker 1: is because he's done a ton of frustrating things before that,
Speaker 1: and I think you can forget that, like among qualified passers,
Speaker 1: he was dead last behind JJ McCarthy was second to last,
Speaker 1: and completion percentage over expected like his you know, his accuracy,
Speaker 1: it really comes and goes. And yet I don't want
Speaker 1: to discount the playmaking because you know, the idea is
Speaker 1: to win football games, and his ability to do that
Speaker 1: in the biggest of moments in his combination. I think
Speaker 1: PFF stats are helpful here that he's second in big
Speaker 1: time throw rate, but you know, fifth in terms of
Speaker 1: you know, his sack rate is an incredible combination of
Speaker 1: big plays and avoiding negative plays. So even though his
Speaker 1: best games like they were a little erratic and he's
Speaker 1: holding onto the ball forever, the longest time to throw
Speaker 1: in the league, and the rest of the stats are
Speaker 1: more middle of the pack, like QBR all that stuff
Speaker 1: is a lot of it is middle of the pack.
Speaker 1: You are betting on a young, extremely talented player who
Speaker 1: had some thing's click for mentally last year. Just continuing
Speaker 1: that progression, and he certainly has a chance to make
Speaker 1: both of us look dumb for even letting him go
Speaker 1: this far in the draft.
Speaker 3: He does, Yeah, I mean, he's one of the guys
Speaker 3: that I think could be really you know, a big
Speaker 3: riser that's not going to surprise anyone. You know, maybe
Speaker 3: it'll be surprised some people why Daniel's higher, But I'm
Speaker 3: definitely a fan. I thought the progression last year was
Speaker 3: pretty wild. The I mean, what did he go from
Speaker 3: a pressure to pressure to sack rate went from twenty
Speaker 3: eight point two percent in twenty twenty four to nine
Speaker 3: point six percent in twenty twenty five. That is insane.
Speaker 3: And he held the ball point twenty seconds longer. So
Speaker 3: he was just nothing about his like is this sustainable?
Speaker 3: What you would say? Heck, though, there's no way he
Speaker 3: could sustain this. He is and all He's made this
Speaker 3: point and I think it's absolute spot on when you
Speaker 3: watch him. He's the fastest guy to the edge of
Speaker 3: any quarterback in the league, right, and that's crazy. I
Speaker 3: don't think people just said, oh, pure speed he's just
Speaker 3: so quick and so he out of the pocket so
Speaker 3: fast and basically what he had to be, because I
Speaker 3: don't think he's ever going to be just like you're
Speaker 3: paint by numbers quarterback. Like I don't think he's ever
Speaker 3: it's always going to be hard to compare him to
Speaker 3: everybody else. What you hope with Kailee Williams, I think
Speaker 3: is that he gets on this hot streak at the
Speaker 3: right time because he can do that, he's so special
Speaker 3: out of structure. He's one of the guys that might
Speaker 3: be able to live there more often than others and
Speaker 3: still be good. Now. I think he still has to
Speaker 3: keep getting better within structure, and that was last year.
Speaker 3: He did take steps in that way that was obvious.
Speaker 3: But he is probably the top guy in the league
Speaker 3: right now out of structure on a consistent base. Now
Speaker 3: he spends more time there, So maybe it's an unfair comparison,
Speaker 3: and maybe Mahomes and Allen and Jackson at the peak
Speaker 3: of their powers can still play that way, but they've
Speaker 3: learned to play other ways too, and Williams will need
Speaker 3: to keep evolving there. But he's unbelievably special when it
Speaker 3: comes to getting the edge of the defense, making throws plays.
Speaker 3: We saw that in the playoffs, Like just all kinds
Speaker 3: of unbelievable stuff from him. So the fact that his
Speaker 3: style of play after a season where it looked like
Speaker 3: none of it was going to translate to the NFL
Speaker 3: because he kept trying to play the same way. It
Speaker 3: was a complete disasters or rookie. His style play from
Speaker 3: college going to the NFL and being able to work
Speaker 3: on a really successful season for the team, not just
Speaker 3: him individually, is unbelievably exciting stuff from a viewing perspective
Speaker 3: because he is appointment viewing right. I mean, he is
Speaker 3: all the things that fans on Twitter love to talk
Speaker 3: about with quarterback play. He is those things. And so
Speaker 3: because of that, the brand is going to be strong,
Speaker 3: and that's really good for the league, really good for
Speaker 3: the Bears, really good for people like you and I
Speaker 3: who love watching players. This exciting play. I think in
Speaker 3: between that there are still a lot of things that
Speaker 3: need work, but this is a totally appropriate range for
Speaker 3: him and a player that I think if those things,
Speaker 3: you know, to the degree that they already improved last season,
Speaker 3: if that keeps up, man like, we could really be
Speaker 3: talking about something Greg. It would be really really fun
Speaker 3: if he's able to be this unorthodox different than everybody
Speaker 3: else in the league zig while everybody else zags type
Speaker 3: of player. I would be really excited to kind of
Speaker 3: be able to compare him year after year to some
Speaker 3: other players and around the league because he's so different
Speaker 3: at this position.
Speaker 1: I mean, Bears fans are gonna be honking, this is
Speaker 1: way too low. Why Why is Kale Williams at fourteen
Speaker 1: if Drake may is at five? I think it points
Speaker 1: to what I talked about to start the show, that
Speaker 1: it's a really deep position right now. We still have
Speaker 1: good players remaining to talk about. But there were early
Speaker 1: moments in Stafford's career, in Carson Palmer's career, in different
Speaker 1: like young ascending quarterbacks who are like going into a season,
Speaker 1: it's like, well, you thought, okay, there's six, there's seventh,
Speaker 1: you know, and that's kind of where Caleb Williams is now.
Speaker 1: But there's just too many, you know, proven players ahead
Speaker 1: of them. I have to admit I am regretting that
Speaker 1: Trevor Lawrence pick, that the Lawrence pick in Herbert over Stafford,
Speaker 1: Like I immediately thought twice about I feel pretty good
Speaker 1: about who I would take fifteenth. I'm curious if it'll
Speaker 1: be the same one for you.
Speaker 2: Let's see c J.
Speaker 3: Stroud is the guy.
Speaker 1: Yes, that was mine too, he was like a solid fifteen.
Speaker 1: I don't know why. Actually, so far we've gone off,
Speaker 1: we've ticked off my top fifteen and larder.
Speaker 3: Wow, there's one guy left in my top fifteen. We
Speaker 3: haven't talked about Lawrence just outside of it. For me, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think CJ. Stroud, I who actually have twelve fear
Speaker 3: by the way, just the way that it's falling for
Speaker 3: me because I Jane daniels Hire too, I would say
Speaker 3: with Stroud, I get into this. I see it both ways.
Speaker 3: Right where the postseason has been a mess, I mean
Speaker 3: this this past post season was I don't think all
Speaker 3: of his postseason has been a mess, but this past
Speaker 3: postseason a lot of the worst games I've ever seen
Speaker 3: in my life by a quarterback. I'm not gonna lie
Speaker 3: like any level of greg that was completely insane. Now,
Speaker 3: I've always been a Stroud guy, So you know, this
Speaker 3: feels like a good range for him. Maybe like there
Speaker 3: could you know, there could be arguments for him. You know,
Speaker 3: some would make arguments that he should be you know,
Speaker 3: four or five spots lower maybe than this, but because
Speaker 3: the reasons, he buys a strong right with him, and
Speaker 3: it wasn't this unbelievable year overall with him. I'm really
Speaker 3: curious if does he want to be Joe Burrow? And
Speaker 3: is anybody gonna let him be Joe Burrow? And if
Speaker 3: he can't be Joe Burrow, is he ever gonna be good?
Speaker 3: If he can't be Joe Burrow and the offensive line
Speaker 3: is terrible, Like will it ever get to a great point?
Speaker 3: I think there's real questions that I have there just
Speaker 3: about like what kind of offense works best for him
Speaker 3: in the league. Not to the level I've always said
Speaker 3: this about Kyler Murray. I'm like, I think it's extremely
Speaker 3: difficult to build an offense that this guy can be
Speaker 3: successful in the league with Stroud, I don't ask that question.
Speaker 3: Maybe necessarily, I just don't know how many teams want
Speaker 3: to play the way he might want to play. And
Speaker 3: that's evidence by looking at Joe Burrow and the way
Speaker 3: Burrow plays and the way Cincinnati's played, where you can say,
Speaker 3: are they ever going to evolve, they ever going to change?
Speaker 3: They ever going to do this or that? They're ever
Speaker 3: going to modernize all this stuff. But the reality is
Speaker 3: they're playing the way that they're playing because the quarterback
Speaker 3: wants to play that way, and that hasn't really happened
Speaker 3: in Houston, and so I wonder if that is going
Speaker 3: to just negatively affect his career. And then I wonder
Speaker 3: if he does get to play that way for a
Speaker 3: sutent long period of time, is he consistent enough to
Speaker 3: be able to do that? Because it is quarterback on difficult,
Speaker 3: high difficulty mode. And I think he's brilliant and I
Speaker 3: think he has a lot of similarities to Burrow in
Speaker 3: some ways, but it's not that easy to pull off,
Speaker 3: and we don't see a lot of guys pull it
Speaker 3: off because it's not that easy. So I just have
Speaker 3: questions if they have ever found like a symbiotic this
Speaker 3: is what we want to be nature to Stroud and
Speaker 3: an OC and play caller and system. And so I
Speaker 3: think because of that, you're seeing like more cracks with
Speaker 3: him as a player, Like he hasn't been unbelievable in
Speaker 3: these other systems. And I think obviously this is one
Speaker 3: of been one of the worst offensive lines in football
Speaker 3: during most of his time there, especially the last couple
Speaker 3: of years. So there's all these factors that sort of
Speaker 3: collide to get like this maybe picture that isn't it's
Speaker 3: just not quite as grandiose as we maybe thought it
Speaker 3: was going to be after that rookie season. But I
Speaker 3: still think he's pretty good, and I still think the
Speaker 3: potential is there for him to be really good. The
Speaker 3: stuff I've seen him do, the high derogreed difficulty stuff
Speaker 3: i've seen him do, I'm really intrigued by and I'm
Speaker 3: very high on. So I won't quit him for sure
Speaker 3: yet after this next season. If it goes kind of
Speaker 3: some of this last season, I probably will have to
Speaker 3: slide him down because I understand people's doubt of whether
Speaker 3: this is even the guy. There's been even the should
Speaker 3: he get the next contract questions, which I would for
Speaker 3: sure be given him an X contract, But I understand
Speaker 3: I think there is maybe a little downside there, the
Speaker 3: panicky nature to some things, and the mistake prone ball
Speaker 3: when he plays that way, which wasn't the case for
Speaker 3: early in his career and has become a little more
Speaker 3: of the case. The sacks and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: It's it is somewhat concerning, so I would say for
Speaker 3: the first time I'm concerned about CJ. Stroud, but not
Speaker 3: enough to have him lower than.
Speaker 2: This same I believe. I've always been a believer.
Speaker 1: Last year was way better than people recognized, just even
Speaker 1: just if you just look at the numbers. He was
Speaker 1: eleventh in QBR for instance. That was higher than Lawrence
Speaker 1: and Goff and Herbert and Caleb and Darneld eleventh in EPA.
Speaker 1: So those are like two different advanced stats that kind
Speaker 1: of have him in that area. That's ahead of Burrow
Speaker 1: and Lawrence. He took less sacks, he avoided pressure last year,
Speaker 1: and yet John, I'm at the same point as you
Speaker 1: where I'm a little more worried right now than I've
Speaker 1: ever been because I actually thought the tape at times
Speaker 1: was worse because it previewed what happened in the playoffs,
Speaker 1: which was whatever the opposite of oh, he has a
Speaker 1: bad play and then he has amnesia and he forgets
Speaker 1: about it and moves on whatever the opposite of that,
Speaker 1: Like CJ. Stroud might might have been one of the
Speaker 1: worst quarterbacks in the league when he got in a
Speaker 1: hole last year, he would stay in a hole. And
Speaker 1: there's three, four or five games where you can see
Speaker 1: him getting frustrated, you can see it on his face,
Speaker 1: and his play just doesn't give him a chance to
Speaker 1: win for a couple quarters straight. And that to me
Speaker 1: was new, and that was a streakiness, and I think
Speaker 1: it came out in the worst possible way in the playoffs. Look,
Speaker 1: I think he's come out and everything I hear from
Speaker 1: this offseason sounds great. I'm optimistic that he'll get past
Speaker 1: that because then the type of career I think he
Speaker 1: can have is very similar to what Dak Prescott is having. Like,
Speaker 1: I think he can be that level of quarterback and
Speaker 1: play in a similar way, and I, if I had
Speaker 1: to guess, I think he's going to get there. But
Speaker 1: the streakiness and sort of the the holes that he
Speaker 1: would get in mentally, that's not what you want out
Speaker 1: of your quarterback. And so that that is concerning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no doubt. I mean, the downside stuff is clear.
Speaker 3: People are not wrong about the aspects of play that
Speaker 3: they've been concerning recently. But I do think there's a
Speaker 3: path forward with him. It's better than the one that
Speaker 3: they've just left behind. I'm just not sure they're going
Speaker 3: to find it. And so because of that, I may
Speaker 3: not look right about this, and you know, I'll obviously
Speaker 3: make my excuses, but like at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: trying to be right. So I understand why people wouldn't
Speaker 3: want to have them asigh.
Speaker 1: I had a pretty clear top fifteen and that was it.
Speaker 1: It's a little bit of a drop off there. There's
Speaker 1: actually not anyone that I'm excited to take next, struggling
Speaker 1: I have.
Speaker 3: I have a disagreement with that. There's one way I
Speaker 3: left that I'm tell me, Okay, I'm a believer.
Speaker 1: Give me bout bikes. Okay, I mean I'm next. So
Speaker 1: I just I'm going to take that pick he was show.
Speaker 1: I'll show you by board. I mean he is next.
Speaker 1: But I'm not as excited to take. It's partly because
Speaker 1: of the injury, which I shouldn't be that concerned about.
Speaker 1: That he's coming off of surgery. He's gonna be ready
Speaker 1: for training camp. I don't love that the injury happened
Speaker 1: on one of those rollouts. And I do think that
Speaker 1: he's a stable quarterback, and yet like so much of
Speaker 1: his game is on the move, Like it feels too much.
Speaker 1: Can you build the whole plane out of a quarterback
Speaker 1: that just throws on the root move, whether it's designed,
Speaker 1: whether it's scrambling, whether it's just you know, throwing.
Speaker 2: He is great at it.
Speaker 1: And yet you know you want to see him win
Speaker 1: from the pocket a little bit. It's a lot of
Speaker 1: hitch routes. He actually led the league in hitch routes,
Speaker 1: not Jalen Hurts, which you would have thought. He's better
Speaker 1: when he's trailing. But ultimately I had him here that
Speaker 1: this was my sixteenth guy. Even though I had a
Speaker 1: tier break. He backed up his rookie year. I think
Speaker 1: he built on it. He had more big plays, he
Speaker 1: had more mistakes, I think as well. But he does
Speaker 1: have sachs And even if he's not making a lot
Speaker 1: of big plays, specifically John when he gets pressured ANDGS
Speaker 1: had him as the fewest air yards for completion when pressured,
Speaker 1: he still had enough big plays in the arsenal. And
Speaker 1: he was really good in late and close situations, third
Speaker 1: down situations, third and long situations. Those are the situations
Speaker 1: you want your quarterback to to be nails, and ultimately
Speaker 1: he was. He played great in that game, and they
Speaker 1: could have been going to the super Bowl if not
Speaker 1: for that injury.
Speaker 3: No doubt I think that, and I was not. Again,
Speaker 3: another guy was not high on bot X coming out
Speaker 3: as a prospect. Didn't get it, you know, I like
Speaker 3: all these you know this offense at Oregon, they kind
Speaker 3: of like basically made him fake play quarterback after he
Speaker 3: was pretty bad. I thought. At Auburn, and I remember
Speaker 3: watching him early in his college crowds like this guy's
Speaker 3: a hype prospect, like hyped high school recruit, I guess
Speaker 3: I should say, And I was like, man, I don't
Speaker 3: see it. And the way he's just kept going like
Speaker 3: he's smart. First of all, I think that's under sold
Speaker 3: and that's a big reason why he took the leap
Speaker 3: he did. Actually didn't think his rookie year was like
Speaker 3: okay to me, but I wasn't. I was like a
Speaker 3: little bit like, I think his rookieyears kind of overrated.
Speaker 3: And maybe it was, or maybe I just didn't see
Speaker 3: what was coming. But I think there was some rough
Speaker 3: stuff early in the season with him, and after that
Speaker 3: he was pretty much really good for the most part,
Speaker 3: I think, And I think you're right about the all
Speaker 3: structure play and just like obviously I've harp done that already,
Speaker 3: but we're in a range again where I'm like just
Speaker 3: looking at, like what's the potential for him? And he
Speaker 3: got better in structure, got better thrown in the middle
Speaker 3: of the field. Those were weaknesses of a rookie season.
Speaker 3: He got better just making quick decisions and getting the
Speaker 3: ball out a little bit faster to the point where
Speaker 3: I think it's more palatable. And then he just continues
Speaker 3: to avoid sacks. And after that early stretch in the season,
Speaker 3: he's not been a high turnover guy either. And then
Speaker 3: he's made really hydro good difficulty throws too, so you
Speaker 3: get less of the valleys, more of the peaks, and
Speaker 3: then a little bit better in structure play not good
Speaker 3: enough yet still I think he's got to continue growing
Speaker 3: in that regard. And then he's really good athlete, unbelievable,
Speaker 3: Like in terms of functional athleticism, he's really really good.
Speaker 3: He doesn't get hit very often. He is not going
Speaker 3: to get sacked very often. That's been proven through two
Speaker 3: years of his career, playing all these games, all these dropbacks,
Speaker 3: he's just rarely, that's rarely happening to him. And he's
Speaker 3: not like he's just like a quick release guy like
Speaker 3: Jared Goff either, like he's holding the ball and making
Speaker 3: plays and not having the downside plays in those situations. Now,
Speaker 3: one year sample size, yeah, okay, I don't know, two
Speaker 3: years sample size. Yeah, I'm starting to become a bowliever now'
Speaker 3: that's long and short of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we both had him at sixteen. And it's a
Speaker 1: fair point because he I mean, he was pretty thrilling
Speaker 1: in that playoff game in the second half in such
Speaker 1: a high leverage moment, and his highs have been higher
Speaker 1: than I would have expected. And you're right, it was
Speaker 1: a big step forward. I do worry about like the
Speaker 1: you know, surgeries after each of his seasons and some
Speaker 1: lower body injuries and Sean Payton and him going at
Speaker 1: it about the medical stuff. It's a little and certain.
Speaker 1: All right, we're halfway through this, John. We got to
Speaker 1: get you back to work. So what we're gonna do
Speaker 1: is we're gonna pick up the pace for the second half.
Speaker 1: We're gonna we're gonna We're not gonna go rapid fire.
Speaker 1: We're gonna give these quarterbacks their love, but we will
Speaker 1: we will go a little faster down the stretch.
Speaker 2: But we're halfway through. You're up with number seventeen.
Speaker 3: I actually had Sam Darnald ahead of Rock Party and
Speaker 3: Trevor Lawrence, even though I think it's a conversation, those
Speaker 3: guys are on the same tier. So he would be
Speaker 3: he's fifteenth for me, what' seventeenth I think for us
Speaker 3: in our draft, and that would be my top seventeen
Speaker 3: basically then would be off the board. So we're we're
Speaker 3: just a little bit different of an order basically there,
Speaker 3: I think with Donald with me, I'm just.
Speaker 2: Really very different.
Speaker 1: If you've got Donald over Perdy Lawrence, yeah I can
Speaker 1: see that, and yeah, I've got feel dumb about Lawrence.
Speaker 3: Well I've got Donald one spot over Perty. And I've
Speaker 3: gone back and forth on this, so I think there's
Speaker 3: a lot of different ways to see it. Because Perdy,
Speaker 3: I think has been better now for like consistently who
Speaker 3: he is for longer, which is like a pretty good guy,
Speaker 3: a guy in this rangel like or a little bit
Speaker 3: higher maybe in the best moments of his career for
Speaker 3: a couple of years now. And Donald there is still
Speaker 3: like this unpredictability to like he's great for Minnesota, then
Speaker 3: he like falls apart at the end of the season.
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, like and you know, last year mostly
Speaker 3: great for Seattle and they obviously win the Super Bowl.
Speaker 3: For last season, he wasn't just good for Seattle. He
Speaker 3: was like in the MVP conversation. I think people forget
Speaker 3: about that, but for most of the season he was
Speaker 3: in that conversation and playing at a really, really high
Speaker 3: level for a team that was among the best in
Speaker 3: the league that entire time. The operation of the offense,
Speaker 3: being able to play pure drop back football, hiding your
Speaker 3: difficulty throws down the field, like a lot of that
Speaker 3: stuff's there now. I'll take a lot of sacks. He'll
Speaker 3: get hit some like he makes some boneheaded throws. He
Speaker 3: throws the other team sometimes and he you know, there's
Speaker 3: there's real lows to him where we talked about with Bonix,
Speaker 3: like there's not really the valley he's like as much
Speaker 3: there's us with with tam Donald, Like I don't know
Speaker 3: that that's ever gonna not that's ever going to completely
Speaker 3: go away. But he has a lot of physical and
Speaker 3: mental tools, ability to play different ways in different systems
Speaker 3: that give you a real fighting chance. I think you
Speaker 3: can design some different things. And he doesn't have a
Speaker 3: skill set that's like, oh, there's lit on it. He
Speaker 3: can't do all these different things, take everything off the menu.
Speaker 3: There's obviously he operated this offense to specifically play acts
Speaker 3: and stuff, but he could throw the middle of the field.
Speaker 3: He throws the ball down the field aggressively. He's not
Speaker 3: going to be scared, so you don't take a ton
Speaker 3: off the menu with him, which is why I really
Speaker 3: like him. And so this range, I think, I just
Speaker 3: won a Super Bowl. Maybe he wasn't the number one
Speaker 3: factor in that, but I also don't think he was
Speaker 3: like a forgotten factor of that either. It wasn't like
Speaker 3: this team was grind, ground and pound football and just
Speaker 3: great defense, all throwback team. And obviously the defense was awesome,
Speaker 3: but it wasn't like that was the style football that
Speaker 3: they played. He had to be he had to make
Speaker 3: plays in almost all these games, and he consistently made him.
Speaker 3: And so I think he's more than just to you know,
Speaker 3: plug anybody in there and they would have done this
Speaker 3: last year. I don't think that at all. I think
Speaker 3: he's a good player. So he probably this group I
Speaker 3: think going up to maybe one more after Trevor Lawrence,
Speaker 3: we'll talk about the next guy. Eighteenth on my list.
Speaker 3: He's the most just a hard one. To figure out,
Speaker 3: I think, but those that probably ends the guys that
Speaker 3: I'm like excited about in the league is being a
Speaker 3: starting quarterback for free. But I think about the point
Speaker 3: where I feel pretty decent if Sam Donald was my
Speaker 3: starting quarterback compared to what the downside could be with
Speaker 3: about half the rest of the league.
Speaker 1: But yeah, fourth and completion percentage over expected nineteenth in
Speaker 1: QBR but ninth and pff, he's even his numbers are
Speaker 1: all over the place. Yeah, he's His weaknesses are still
Speaker 1: what they've always been. He led the NFL and interceptions
Speaker 1: against the guy's coverages and turned it over a lot
Speaker 1: when pressured in general.
Speaker 2: But the highs the pluses.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that down the field, throws really good and
Speaker 1: his functional athleticism is really good.
Speaker 2: I think too, in terms of what he can do
Speaker 2: with the rollouts.
Speaker 1: I have him in this tier of kind of for me,
Speaker 1: it's like a sixteen, seventeen to twenty tier of guys
Speaker 1: you're happy with, you can obviously win with, And yeah,
Speaker 1: he's right smack in the middle of that tier for me.
Speaker 2: I have Hurts next.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's who you were referring to
Speaker 1: as Jalen Hurts, who's a tough one to deal with.
Speaker 1: Now you have him much lower. Ultimately, I gotta give
Speaker 1: him much, but yeah, okay, I gotta give him some
Speaker 1: respective He's four years now removed from his coming in
Speaker 1: second in MVP. The biggest concern I have with him
Speaker 1: because his strengths and weaknesses have been talked to death. Look,
Speaker 1: he's an outside the numbers thrower. He's a good deep
Speaker 1: ball thrower, but he teams know what he's good at,
Speaker 1: what he's not good at. I'm just worried that his
Speaker 1: running ability is not coming back, and that that would
Speaker 1: really make him a much more limited quarterback because his
Speaker 1: short yardage running straight ahead. He's never been as good
Speaker 1: side to side as people thought. But it really added
Speaker 1: a lot of value and I think opened up things
Speaker 1: that that it worries me. But I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 1: give him some credit for durability and not assume that
Speaker 1: the athleticism is gone. And obviously you know you can
Speaker 1: perform at a high level with him when things are clicking.
Speaker 3: We're in that group of quarterbacks now for me, there's
Speaker 3: three guys left where I think like their highs are
Speaker 3: good enough to still be in the top twenty for me,
Speaker 3: but we're in we've entered eighteen nineteen twenty range for
Speaker 3: me of quarterbacks, which is kind of where I see
Speaker 3: maybe a tear break right now. I'd say, where these
Speaker 3: guys I don't trust every week to be good and
Speaker 3: maybe they're just straight up and negative for my team.
Speaker 3: And so Hurts is in that group. He's the second
Speaker 3: one in this three person group that I have. But
Speaker 3: the highs are also I mean, Jalen Hurts has played
Speaker 3: two of the best games in a Super Bowl that
Speaker 3: we've seen, and I struggle to rectify that with the
Speaker 3: rest of what the player I watch weekly in the league.
Speaker 3: And I'm just like, man, there's just so this offense
Speaker 3: is so limited. He won't throw it to certain hears
Speaker 3: of the field, he doesn't play with instructor, he doesn't
Speaker 3: trust people. He only throws certain types of balls. You
Speaker 3: have to have a great run game. The protection's amazing,
Speaker 3: and yet still he holds it and holds it and
Speaker 3: he's really not that unbelievable creator. And I just see
Speaker 3: all these limitations show up when I'm watching him week
Speaker 3: to week to week, and then he just lights it
Speaker 3: on fire in two Super Bowls, and I'm like, look,
Speaker 3: he played out of his mind, got one.
Speaker 2: Of those years.
Speaker 1: He was pretty great the whole season, and that's when
Speaker 1: he had he had the running. I mean, one thing
Speaker 1: he's not going to do is is throw it in
Speaker 1: and turn the ball over. So that combination of just
Speaker 1: some big plays with being very careful with the ball.
Speaker 1: But yeah, he can be a frustrating guy to watch.
Speaker 2: All right. Who else is in this tier for you
Speaker 2: at nineteen?
Speaker 3: So Baker Mayfield's one spot ahead of him. Yeah, me
Speaker 3: and you could make any of those, you know, But
Speaker 3: he's another one that again, I love that you don't
Speaker 3: have to take stuff off the menu with him. He's
Speaker 3: a physical arm strength, he has anough athleticism. You can
Speaker 3: do kind of anything you want with your offense with
Speaker 3: the Mipothetically, you just have to accept the fact that
Speaker 3: everything you do is going to be inconsistent because he's
Speaker 3: not a consistent player. He will get super hyped up
Speaker 3: in the pocket to hold the ball. He won't throw
Speaker 3: it open. People turn down plays and you just have
Speaker 3: all these frustrations with them. So there's a ton on
Speaker 3: the menu. He can make every throw on the field.
Speaker 3: He's the moxie, the leadership, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: I think you have more questions there with Hurtz. Although
Speaker 3: some people praise Hurts for it, there's obviously been some drama.
Speaker 3: There's been enough smoke there where there has to be
Speaker 3: some fire right over the years. With Baker, I think
Speaker 3: there obviously there was early in his career in Tampa Bay.
Speaker 3: It's been nothing but like praise for him and that
Speaker 3: regard like they love the demeto the player, everybody in
Speaker 3: the team loves like. All that stuff is positives right
Speaker 3: at this point with him and the fact that you
Speaker 3: can operate an offense with him. He's also an unbelievable
Speaker 3: ball handler. Kind Of an underrated part about his game
Speaker 3: is that the run game in Tampa got to be
Speaker 3: so versatile that year under Cohen because he was such
Speaker 3: a good ballhandled They could do all the pony stuff
Speaker 3: in the fakes, and that was a real compelling part
Speaker 3: of his game. But there's just some limitations. He's gonna
Speaker 3: make a lot of mistakes. He's gonna miss throws, he's
Speaker 3: gonna miss open guys. He's not gonna play within the
Speaker 3: structure all the time as often as you want him too.
Speaker 3: He's gonna invite his own pressure, and you just have
Speaker 3: to live with this roller coaster a little bit with
Speaker 3: him that you know, is clearly better than some of
Speaker 3: the guys behind him in the last half league spots
Speaker 3: in this list or whatever, twelve thirteen spots, but just
Speaker 3: not as good as the peak guys.
Speaker 1: I think he's like this tier especially, is again proving
Speaker 1: the point that I'm talking about the fact that Baker Mayfield,
Speaker 1: who's coming off one of his you know, worst seasons.
Speaker 1: I would say, although he sat in up and down career,
Speaker 1: but certainly in Tampa, but still like nineteen twenty at
Speaker 1: an EPA and success rate and twelfth QBR, he scrambled
Speaker 1: way too much last year, Like he's just taken off.
Speaker 1: He was making it happen for a while, but the
Speaker 1: percentage when he was pressured, you know, And that's the
Speaker 1: thing you mentioned, the streakiness. But the fact that he's nineteenth,
Speaker 1: I mean, I really do believe if you went and
Speaker 1: looked at at some of the years, like there was
Speaker 1: a really dire perier, like at the end of the
Speaker 1: twenty tens, where like what Baker is right now would
Speaker 1: be like the ninth best quarterback in the NFL. So
Speaker 1: I don't blame the Bucks for thinking and really knowing
Speaker 1: that they can win with Baker.
Speaker 2: He's just streakier.
Speaker 1: I have Kyler Murray next at twenty, and the numbers
Speaker 1: have always been kind of middle of the pack, but
Speaker 1: how he gets there is frustrating. He doesn't. He reminds
Speaker 1: me a little bit of Trevor Lawrence, maybe a better
Speaker 1: version of him for most of his career, but that.
Speaker 2: There's a part.
Speaker 1: Of reading the game and instincts, and by reading the game,
Speaker 1: I mean when to push doing one thing, when to
Speaker 1: know when to take a risk. It's almost like Tyler
Speaker 1: has to be told like, Okay, start running more. Then
Speaker 1: he starts running more for a little while, and then
Speaker 1: he pulls back from running more. Throw to the middle
Speaker 1: of the field more than he's instead of it all
Speaker 1: just naturally flowing. And yet at his best he's incredible
Speaker 1: and he's talented, and even with the ups and downs,
Speaker 1: he's a solid starting quarterback with a real ceiling. There's
Speaker 1: been streakiness to it, but I mean, man, he throws,
Speaker 1: He throws a pretty ball and is a hell of
Speaker 1: a runner. I think at this point of his career
Speaker 1: it's going to be figuring out calibrate how to avoid
Speaker 1: the hits, when to run, when not to and everything.
Speaker 1: But I totally get why the Vikings made that bet,
Speaker 1: and I would have made it even.
Speaker 2: If you had to pay him much more money and
Speaker 2: they didn't have to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the peak examples of this type of player,
Speaker 3: right were just these crazy hot streaks that there's been
Speaker 3: what four or five times in his career where after
Speaker 3: a three week stretch, people like Gause, Kyler Murray and
Speaker 3: the MVP conversation that you questioned if he's a starting
Speaker 3: quarterback the next week like it. So just yeah, it
Speaker 3: doesn't play consistly within the structure of an offense. I
Speaker 3: really question the leader stuff with him. I questioned some
Speaker 3: of that aspect of the game with him, like the
Speaker 3: ability to consistently buy no team concepting to get other
Speaker 3: people to buy, and I think that's important at this position.
Speaker 3: I don't know that he's ever done that at a
Speaker 3: high level. I don't know that he's ever bought in himself.
Speaker 3: He will loves to play hero mode, not a structure,
Speaker 3: and obviously he's great traits, but that's just not led
Speaker 3: to a lot of consistency in his career, so a
Speaker 3: guy I wouldn't necessarily be excited about my team taking
Speaker 3: as a quarterback. But he is also twentieth for me,
Speaker 3: so same top twenty different orders for us. My next
Speaker 3: guy would be huge question mark. I really don't know
Speaker 3: where to go from here. There's a bunch of cases,
Speaker 3: the budget cases that can be made, and it's for
Speaker 3: twenty twenty six, is what I keep telling myself. Who
Speaker 3: all up for twenty twenty six? And I think, I
Speaker 3: think that I don't know, but I think the answer
Speaker 3: is the answer Daniel Jones. It feels so unfun to me,
Speaker 3: but the answer might be Daniel Jones.
Speaker 2: It's fine.
Speaker 1: He's always been better than people thought when he was
Speaker 1: the worst court, you know, and he was terrible, and
Speaker 1: he's not as good as people thought.
Speaker 2: Certainly in the first half of last year.
Speaker 1: They if you're if you have healthy Danny Dimes, this
Speaker 1: is you know, he deserves to be here. Or if
Speaker 1: you had healthy Danny Dimes, you might even want them,
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, a couple of spots higher.
Speaker 3: You might. And he played well last season, and you know,
Speaker 3: I have to give some credit to that. I think
Speaker 3: if he hadn't played well, last season. I don't think
Speaker 3: even think I had him in this tier, but that
Speaker 3: offense was a really good one, and like the system
Speaker 3: around him, like he wasn't like in a mess like
Speaker 3: he was with the Giants, And so I am a
Speaker 3: little bit compelled if he hadn't gotten hurt, Like could
Speaker 3: he be a guy who like would be maybe more
Speaker 3: in the Baker tier, Like would he be in the
Speaker 3: high teens or you know, he's twenty one from a year,
Speaker 3: so it's not like he's much lower than that, but like,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe there's something like that too, So maybe
Speaker 3: he's the safest bet. There are guys with way more
Speaker 3: upside than him though that I'm sure you will pick next.
Speaker 1: So like that's compelling to heavy heavy play action last year,
Speaker 1: it sounds positive the torn achilles that he'll be ready
Speaker 1: for training camp was crazy good, unsustainably good, avoiding Saxon
Speaker 1: and versus pressure early last season. I don't know, I
Speaker 1: don't think I'm taking someone that you would take. Here,
Speaker 1: I'll plant another flag that I'm happy to do, which
Speaker 1: is after watching Tyler Shuck's tape last year talk about
Speaker 1: being wrong about a player, I was solo on Schuck
Speaker 1: coming into the draft. Just thought he wasn't going to
Speaker 1: be able to handle pressure, and he did take a
Speaker 1: lot of sacks. That is the number one concern that
Speaker 1: I have for him. But man, he also hung in there,
Speaker 1: like Ryan Tannehill style, just getting destroyed and making some
Speaker 1: really good next level bros. The only quarterbacks that had
Speaker 1: to higher pressure to sack ratio, by the way last
Speaker 1: year was Gino Smith, who Chuck almost kind of reminds
Speaker 1: me of sometimes with the way that he can throw
Speaker 1: the ball into smaller windows and over the middle of
Speaker 1: the field, and Brady Cook. But I loved how fast
Speaker 1: he got through his reads, the arm was strong enough,
Speaker 1: a lot of opposite field, and I just thought he
Speaker 1: showed more as a rookie. So for twenty twenty six,
Speaker 1: I'd rather have him than dart Or Ward. I think
Speaker 1: he showed a lot. He's no Drake May, But in
Speaker 1: the same way that I felt like I know what
Speaker 1: I saw from Drake May's rookie year and made me
Speaker 1: feel good, I feel like I know what I saw
Speaker 1: from Tyler Shuck. I think he's an NFL quarterback that
Speaker 1: the health is obviously a bit of a concern, you know,
Speaker 1: based on college, but I like Tyler Suck this.
Speaker 3: Year, well, since I was just being a coward until
Speaker 3: you picked one of the second year quarterback O, because
Speaker 3: I just have absolutely no idea what to think coming
Speaker 3: off of those rookie years where Shuck did look like
Speaker 3: the best guy down the stretch. He was situation was
Speaker 3: just strength. Frankly, way better than the one cam Ward
Speaker 3: was in. For sure, Jackson Dard looked good at times.
Speaker 3: He also has hurt all the time. His play is
Speaker 3: really reckless. I just I don't know that twenty twenty six,
Speaker 3: even though you could say he was better than Ward
Speaker 3: and you know, maybe as good as Shuk last year,
Speaker 3: at some points at least, I don't know that I'd
Speaker 3: he would be high my list twenty twenty six. I
Speaker 3: just really questioned whether he's going to stay on the field.
Speaker 3: I have other questions about cam Ward. I have questions
Speaker 3: about Bryce Young. I'm going to go for Anando Mendoza.
Speaker 3: We can do that, right, We can take rookie.
Speaker 2: Ye, Yes, yeah, we should have. We should have talked
Speaker 2: about it. Did I think I did?
Speaker 1: I pointed out in Tech we can take multiple raiders
Speaker 1: if you want. You know who knows chains gets taken
Speaker 1: here he might.
Speaker 3: I think I'm just like, I mean, what this is
Speaker 3: twenty third for me? I think on my list twenty diffs,
Speaker 3: So this range like, yeah, this is where I'm good
Speaker 3: guy would like to go into twenty twenty six with
Speaker 3: Fernanda Mendozo. If the other twenty two guys ahead of
Speaker 3: him are off the list, I would just rather shoot
Speaker 3: that shot and take that chance. I think there's a
Speaker 3: real chance that he's the guy long term. I don't
Speaker 3: think he's unbelievable. I don't think this is an unbelievable prospect,
Speaker 3: but I think he's a pretty good one. I think
Speaker 3: the floor might be higher than some other guys we've
Speaker 3: seen at this position, even if you will wrestle with
Speaker 3: what the ceiling is and how good the team around
Speaker 3: him needs to be to reach that ceiling. I would
Speaker 3: rather be in that conversation, I think, than some of
Speaker 3: these more unpredictable what does it happen week to week,
Speaker 3: you know conversations. So if he was not in year one,
Speaker 3: I would probably have him above Kyler and maybe other guys.
Speaker 3: But like, I need to see it in the league
Speaker 3: first before that's too disrespectful, I guess. But I think
Speaker 3: I I think, I mean, I believe in him, maybe
Speaker 3: more than cam Ward after seeing cam Woard this year,
Speaker 3: and I think cam Ward's ceiling. You know the potent
Speaker 3: what he could be, just when you look at some
Speaker 3: of the high degree difficulty throws with him, or like
Speaker 3: draw on the floor stuff, I just have no idea
Speaker 3: if he's ever going to be consistent within the structure
Speaker 3: of an offense getting the ball out that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: With Mendoza, I just feel better that you'll be able
Speaker 3: to create something functional about him. You think about Sam
Speaker 3: Darnold winning a Super Bowl, right like, I think he
Speaker 3: could be that kind of quarterback. And obviously a lot
Speaker 3: of things were right for Seattle, but I think that's
Speaker 3: in the cards for Windoze would be that kind of guy.
Speaker 3: And now he plays with that oftense coordner as his
Speaker 3: head coach. So I'm I think I'm just more intrigued
Speaker 3: by him than the guys below him, even though there's
Speaker 3: certainly arguments for other players.
Speaker 2: I think it's a good value.
Speaker 1: He's more athletic than the people gave him credit for
Speaker 1: ideal size. If he can pick up the getting through
Speaker 1: his reads quickly, and I think there's some good signs
Speaker 1: that he'll be able to do that. It's just hard
Speaker 1: as a rookie. So I didn't take him any earlier.
Speaker 1: But that's that's absolutely the right spot to take him out. Man,
Speaker 1: we're still talking about the second year guys and yet.
Speaker 3: Oh man, you're gonna do it? Take it? What Young?
Speaker 3: Are you going to take them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well that's yeah. How did you know?
Speaker 1: Well him or Dart I'm thinking about Milk Willis is
Speaker 1: in there. I want to just give Bryce Young some
Speaker 1: love that. I think he improved on a lot of
Speaker 1: things a little and that's how you get better, you know,
Speaker 1: as a pro. I think he got to his checkdown quicker,
Speaker 1: he avoided sacks better. His quick game was really good
Speaker 1: and they were able to use it. It was the push
Speaker 1: and pull of figuring out Canals' offense. There was more
Speaker 1: empty formations finally, which I think is going to help him.
Speaker 1: There was a little more extending plays. He's a good
Speaker 1: outside the numbers thrower. There are limitations, but I do
Speaker 1: think you're seeing the benefit of the experience that he's
Speaker 1: had at the NFL level. So entering year four here,
Speaker 1: I do like him a little better than those year
Speaker 1: two guys. Because at least I feel like he's kind
Speaker 1: of built up to where I know what he is
Speaker 1: and what he isn't. But I feel okay with him
Speaker 1: at twenty four.
Speaker 3: I do too. I still think there's a solid player
Speaker 3: in here. You could really make an argument that he
Speaker 3: should be as high as twenty maybe, and I think
Speaker 3: this should This will be a telling year. Right, There's
Speaker 3: been like marginal improvement I think each year with him.
Speaker 3: But it's been marginal, right, it hasn't. He went from
Speaker 3: can he play in the league? Questions like that's where
Speaker 3: I was at when he got bench Frandy Doll in
Speaker 3: the beginning of year two, it was will he even
Speaker 3: make it in the league? Like will this guy just
Speaker 3: be out of the league because he's not that functional
Speaker 3: as a backup you have to design a whole offense
Speaker 3: around a super unique skill set. So like he really
Speaker 3: is like the ultimate boom bust guy, but he's just
Speaker 3: inching closer to booming, but he's just not really there either,
Speaker 3: So like it's it's funny the space that he's found
Speaker 3: himself in where he's like one of the players that
Speaker 3: I would feel most surely will not be where he
Speaker 3: is not like he will either be off this list entirely,
Speaker 3: out of the league, out of the question, like maybe
Speaker 3: just because of the pedigree, people will keep taking chances
Speaker 3: at him on a roster, or he's going to make
Speaker 3: a jump this year without Dave Canal's calm plays. And
Speaker 3: I don't think Dave canl is necessarily the problem, but
Speaker 3: I'm really curious to see if another approach. The whole
Speaker 3: thing with Bryce Young has been similar to the Kyler
Speaker 3: Murray question. I think, but Kyler Murray, I think he
Speaker 3: doesn't want to ever buying any offense because he wants
Speaker 3: to be his own guy. That's just who he is.
Speaker 3: I think Bryce Young would buy in. I just think
Speaker 3: he can't play in that many different offenses, Like so
Speaker 3: the fact that how do we design a run? Canals
Speaker 3: wants to run the ball, He wants to do all
Speaker 3: these things. He wants to build this way. Well, Bryce
Speaker 3: Young wants to spread it around and throw the ball
Speaker 3: around the yard, like being a point guard type of quarterback.
Speaker 3: And that's just hard, Like it's hard to structure a
Speaker 3: lot of other things offensively off a quarterback who wants
Speaker 3: to play that way. And we've mentioned that a couple
Speaker 3: of times now, but I think that's the quandary of
Speaker 3: the Panthers find themselves in, and Canal is recognizing maybe
Speaker 3: I'm not the right guy to tap into everything that
Speaker 3: he is, but it's way easier to place me than
Speaker 3: the quarterback or so I'm just gonna try that and
Speaker 3: if it doesn't work, I'll probably get fired anyway, like
Speaker 3: if he doesn't progress, So I think making that move.
Speaker 3: I'm really curious to see what happens this year with
Speaker 3: Bryce Young. I could see a conversation of a way
Speaker 3: that he gets into the top fifteen. If it does
Speaker 3: all just work and he's this super unique player, unique system,
Speaker 3: they have enough pieces now around him. You could see
Speaker 3: Jalen Coker and Tetra McMillan and some of these guys
Speaker 3: like hitting their peak right like this season just taking off.
Speaker 3: And but he's gonna need to be like really good
Speaker 3: in that type of system. That is going to put
Speaker 3: a lot on his shoulders in terms of decision making,
Speaker 3: you know, knowing where he's going with the ball, pre snap,
Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff. And there's advantages to it
Speaker 3: for an offense, but it also probably means your run
Speaker 3: game menu will be really limited, which puts more on
Speaker 3: his shoulders again, so it's going to be compelling. He
Speaker 3: is either that guy to the max or he's not
Speaker 3: a guy at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Alex Smith has always been my compa, although he's
Speaker 1: five inches shorter. Not exactly as a style, but more
Speaker 1: of the career that I think Bryce Young can have
Speaker 1: if everything goes well in the type of type of
Speaker 1: ways that he won. All Right, you're up with twenty
Speaker 1: five again. We got we gotta got to get you
Speaker 1: back to the day job. But also everyone, as I mentioned,
Speaker 1: should be checking out John on substack with Ali when
Speaker 1: they do their podcast The Readoptional. But John also does
Speaker 1: some great writing. There's a lot of Steelers, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of Bucks. He's got to be the foremost Steelers
Speaker 1: slash Bucks experts in the in.
Speaker 3: The NFL, there are dozens of us. There are dozens
Speaker 3: of us. There's like two guys that are more that
Speaker 3: are compelling still to talk about to me, maybe three
Speaker 3: Walls is certainly interesting. I'll take cam Ward next, though.
Speaker 3: Just believe that I'm another pre draft. Wasn't great last year,
Speaker 3: Still believe he can be better than that. How good
Speaker 3: can he be? How volatile is he? Still questions there
Speaker 3: I think, but I mean, the situations around so bad.
Speaker 3: I don't feel like I learned that much from his
Speaker 3: rookie season, So just based on that, maybe I should
Speaker 3: have him higher. The only reason I don't is because
Speaker 3: it's for twenty twenty six and I'm just not sure
Speaker 3: that that much better, and so that's why he's not
Speaker 3: highed to me. I think long term career wise, he
Speaker 3: would be over He would be in the high teens
Speaker 3: for me probably, or maybe even mid teens for me.
Speaker 3: Probably mid teens for me, because I still do believe
Speaker 3: there's a really good player in there. For twenty twenty six,
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's gonna look great yet. I
Speaker 3: think he's in just a one of the worst franchise,
Speaker 3: one of the worst situations in the league.
Speaker 2: That that's tough.
Speaker 1: Look, the weapons are better, the the coaching hopefully should
Speaker 1: be better. One concerning to me is he had he
Speaker 1: had the lowest market completion percentage when receivers were open
Speaker 1: last year, which you know, you see it on tape
Speaker 1: like you know NGS measures, like a guy has three
Speaker 1: you know yards of separation. His completion percentage on those
Speaker 1: throws were the lowest, and so you want to see him,
Speaker 1: you know, scramble just like a little bit more, but
Speaker 1: he's got a chance. I the wow plays were wow
Speaker 1: again a note of how deep the quarterback position is
Speaker 1: that he would go this lay. I'll go Malik Willis
Speaker 1: my top free agent the off season report shouldn't bother
Speaker 1: me about how slow it's going picking up this offense.
Speaker 1: But also it does bother me a little and just
Speaker 1: reminds me of like, oh my god, Malik Washington's like
Speaker 1: their number one receiver. This is gonna be so hard.
Speaker 1: And Bobby Slowek is his offensive coordinator. But he might
Speaker 1: be the best running quarterback in the NFL right now.
Speaker 2: I think he is.
Speaker 1: If I had to choose, who gives you the most
Speaker 1: on the ground, is a pure runner make you miss
Speaker 1: it's Malik Willis. That gives you a nice floor. He
Speaker 1: had a lot of deep throws last year. Limited sample size,
Speaker 1: but the talent is intriguing. Malik Willis at twenty six.
Speaker 3: Yeah, gotta be fun to watch at the very least,
Speaker 3: like I'm excited for that that part of it. I
Speaker 3: think I will go Jackson Dard here. He's nobody's taking him, right,
Speaker 3: He's still that's right. That they're still sitting there. I'll
Speaker 3: take him. Uh just what were we at twenty twenty seven? Yes,
Speaker 3: I'm really torn on him. I thought he was okay
Speaker 3: as a prospect, where I think he got a lot
Speaker 3: of hate. I was kind of like, I think he solid.
Speaker 3: I'd you know, i'd take him in the second round. Like,
Speaker 3: you know, I think he'd be that kind of a guy.
Speaker 3: And I don't know if I would have traded up
Speaker 3: for him or not, but I mean take him in
Speaker 3: the second round for a quarterback. He kind of had
Speaker 3: like a solid starter type of grade for me in
Speaker 3: the league, like where he'd be in this range, probably
Speaker 3: like maybe in the higher twenty a little bit higher
Speaker 3: in the twenties and late late teens type of ceiling.
Speaker 3: I think that's basically he is. Like I'm curious to
Speaker 3: see what it looks like if he's when he's out
Speaker 3: able to sustain health. I think Giants fans are going
Speaker 3: to be pretty upset that he's that he's just low.
Speaker 3: But you know, and i'd probably have him ahead of
Speaker 3: Willis maybe personally, but you know, I think you could
Speaker 3: make that argument either way. Willison is compelling and exciting,
Speaker 3: and you know, I think both of these guys have
Speaker 3: some you know, leadership tendencies that are going to be
Speaker 3: a really interesting to tap into, very different in a
Speaker 3: lot of ways, and so I think that there's going
Speaker 3: to be when they're given sort of like the show
Speaker 3: to run, what's that going to look like over a
Speaker 3: longer period of time. I just really question that Dart
Speaker 3: is going to like he seems like he just kind
Speaker 3: of plays dumb football. And I don't mean like in
Speaker 3: terms of turnovers, just like he's just kind of reckless
Speaker 3: and doesn't really think through things when he does them.
Speaker 3: And I you know, obviously the injuries are a part
Speaker 3: of that, but like even plays where he wasn't injured,
Speaker 3: there was a lot of just like, yeah, I can
Speaker 3: take it, I can get hammered, and I just am
Speaker 3: not sure, Like, but but the upside plays aren't like that.
Speaker 3: But like he was like, oh, but he's all the
Speaker 3: payoff on the other side of this creation. It's just unbelievable.
Speaker 3: I didn't really see that. So there's definitely more of
Speaker 3: a ceiling here than some of the guys ahead of him.
Speaker 3: But I still have questions, I think, as to whether
Speaker 3: he's going to sustained as an NFL starting quarterback to me, yeah, even.
Speaker 1: Just comparing him and Willis for instance, like the baseline
Speaker 1: of Willis is running, and then the experience that Willis
Speaker 1: had in the Mattlefleur system for multiple years was kind
Speaker 1: of the edge for me, whereas I feel like Dart's
Speaker 1: gonna still need more season. I do think the athleticism
Speaker 1: and the highs were a little higher, better than even expected.
Speaker 1: But he was a first read quarterback really, Like once
Speaker 1: it was after the first read, he's scrambling around. Things
Speaker 1: didn't go that well. That's Jackson Dart at twenty seven.
Speaker 1: Now we're really getting into it. The fact that Jackson
Speaker 1: Darts twenty seven again.
Speaker 2: It's pretty good. Like it wouldn't surprise me at all if.
Speaker 1: Jackson Dart's a top ten quarterback at some point in
Speaker 1: his career and he's fallen here at twenty seventh. I
Speaker 1: think I'll take our guy, Mac Jones. Okay, the NFL,
Speaker 1: you know it's every quarterback's a system quarterback, right, what's
Speaker 1: the most popular system out there in the NFL? John,
Speaker 1: what system dominates this league? We know Mac Jones fits
Speaker 1: in this system. Hell, you can throw him in a
Speaker 1: Jaguars weird system a couple of years ago, and actually
Speaker 1: he could spin it pretty well for them too, So
Speaker 1: he is an ideal backup really if you're in a pin.
Speaker 1: He's a bridge starter one B.
Speaker 2: But I.
Speaker 1: Liked that he kind of combines understanding what to do
Speaker 1: with aggressiveness. Not all out of athleticism obviously, but that's
Speaker 1: why he's a backup. And I feel like he would
Speaker 1: fit on a lot of teams and just kind of
Speaker 1: upgrade your team.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just the ceiling with him because there's not much
Speaker 3: movement ability and I think just limited tools overall. But yeah,
Speaker 3: he's definitely a guy that you can get to like
Speaker 3: learn the system, master the system, play within the system,
Speaker 3: and be solid for you. I think there's absolutely number.
Speaker 2: His numbers are crazy.
Speaker 1: Last year, he's like top five completion over expected, top
Speaker 1: five success.
Speaker 2: He lit up the Rams a couple of times.
Speaker 1: Lit Up is maybe a little strong, but he played
Speaker 1: well against the Rams in two games.
Speaker 3: In this spot for me too. The other guy that
Speaker 3: I still I will I'll take next year. It was
Speaker 3: the twenty ninth Gino Smith. I know that last year
Speaker 3: was just an absolute disaster. I still think there's some
Speaker 3: bounce back potential there is that can happen with the Jets.
Speaker 3: Probably not, But I still think his years of Seattle
Speaker 3: were legit good and I don't think you could talk
Speaker 3: me off his years in Seattle being legit good like
Speaker 3: that that happened, that was real, And I don't know,
Speaker 3: like I just still think he's not just going to
Speaker 3: totally fall part as a player. The way that it
Speaker 3: looked last season less He's was a complete disaster in
Speaker 3: every stretch of the imagine, every semblance of the thing
Speaker 3: was just a mess with the Raiders, and so I
Speaker 3: even with the Jets, which is just a terrible going
Speaker 3: for the Raiders of the Jets is truly should be
Speaker 3: something that never happens to a player in their career,
Speaker 3: but it's happened to Gino Smith that. But even then,
Speaker 3: I think there's some the more of a chance for competency,
Speaker 3: and I still think he's talented. So I mean, we're
Speaker 3: talking about twenty ninth, so it's not any great shakes,
Speaker 3: a great praise, but at least to be a high
Speaker 3: and back of if not like a solid starter type.
Speaker 3: I think you could look at the end of this
Speaker 3: year and be like, Okay, yeah, he's back in like
Speaker 3: the twenty range of quarterbacks. I don't think that's out of.
Speaker 2: The question exactly where I had him.
Speaker 1: I had these two twenty eight and twenty nine Mac
Speaker 1: and Gino Smith, And the biggest upset of this entire
Speaker 1: draft is that I didn't take Gino or Drake make
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm trying to over correct my own biases because
Speaker 1: I'm the president of Geno Nation. Only thirty five years old,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean that's young for quarterbacks these days.
Speaker 1: The story, the stories that have come out about just
Speaker 1: the coaching and the offense with the Raiders, if nothing else,
Speaker 1: He's going to give his receivers a chance. They like
Speaker 1: the Jets reporters almost sound sad that they're like, it's
Speaker 1: shocking how much better the quarterback play is in offseason practices.
Speaker 2: And I'm just like, wow, it was rough there last year.
Speaker 2: Rip justin Field too, who might not get taken here.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm gonna go Kirk.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I thought he played well at the end of last season.
Speaker 3: Me too.
Speaker 1: I think he's just a little bit better version of
Speaker 1: where Rogers is right now, Like neither one of them
Speaker 1: want to get hit.
Speaker 3: But if you just mean yeah, Yeah, Kirk's just better
Speaker 3: playing within the offense, I think than Rodgers at this point.
Speaker 3: Neither one I want to get hit, neither one will
Speaker 3: get hit much. I just think Kirk's better at actually
Speaker 3: like consistently playing tall airs of the field within a
Speaker 3: structure of an offense than Rogers is at this point.
Speaker 3: I think He's a little more fearless and a little
Speaker 3: more capable of going different places with the ball than
Speaker 3: Rodgers's not.
Speaker 1: But this might this might be bucks coated because he
Speaker 1: because Kirk Cousins is Todd Bowles is worst nightmare. So
Speaker 1: you as a as a as a Bucks enthusiast, you know,
Speaker 1: you see the best of Kirk. Although he really was
Speaker 1: moving better and playing better a year further removed from Achilles,
Speaker 1: So I think that was big Yeah yeah for him
Speaker 1: and Rodgers, but especially for for Cousins last year. I
Speaker 1: think he's a great backup.
Speaker 3: He's perfect for the role that he's I would if
Speaker 3: I was if I was Bucks coating Kirk Cousins performances,
Speaker 3: I would have taken him top five because his last
Speaker 3: three games against Tampa Bay have been unbelievable ways in
Speaker 3: my pick.
Speaker 1: Next, yeah, yeah is the Steelers guy gotta fight is
Speaker 1: Rogers finally going off the board.
Speaker 3: Youn't believe you're making me do this. I can't believe.
Speaker 3: I really he's next on mine as well. I really
Speaker 3: flirted with taking the guy that I have thirty second
Speaker 3: over him, just to say I didn't take Aaron Rodgers because.
Speaker 1: If you don't want to take the other guy, take
Speaker 1: the other guy, because it'll I.
Speaker 3: Don't think I could justify it at that. Steelers fans
Speaker 3: will maybe they'll forgive me to having him to this point,
Speaker 3: but I don't think they'd forgive my thirty second guy,
Speaker 3: although I think there's a chance that happens. But Aaron
Speaker 3: Rodgers thirty first, Yeah, I mean it feels right. That's
Speaker 3: about the range for him. You know obviously you know
Speaker 3: we have what two backups three backups ahead of him,
Speaker 3: so like there's some I just think if you're talking
Speaker 3: about like you still have a couple of plays in
Speaker 3: you Yeah, sure he has that in them, but like
Speaker 3: consistently sustainably good quarterback play. No, And he's also making
Speaker 3: more mistakes with the football. He had some terrible turnovers
Speaker 3: last year, fumbles, the sacks that he does take. It's
Speaker 3: just an absolute car crash in the back for like,
Speaker 3: he doesn't offend him, he has no like, he just
Speaker 3: is like it's like he doesn't want to be out there.
Speaker 3: But then he gets hit and it's just like a
Speaker 3: ton of bricks. He's flying all over the place the body.
Speaker 3: Every time he gets hit, he looks like he's not
Speaker 3: going to get back up and he doesn't want to
Speaker 3: get it. He's always angry when he gets hit. I'm like,
Speaker 3: that's kind of part of playing the position. Buddy, you
Speaker 3: should retire if you don't want to do that, And
Speaker 3: so it's just a hard needle to thread. He's mad
Speaker 3: at young guys all the time, even when he makes mistakes.
Speaker 3: But that's just part of his leadership. But I don't
Speaker 3: I think in the locker room things are probably fine.
Speaker 3: It's just if for a team that wants to evolve,
Speaker 3: he doesn't really help you do that, and he doesn't
Speaker 3: help you turn theit in the next chapter necessarily. So
Speaker 3: his place in the league I think is a really
Speaker 3: like might not exist if it wasn't for the Steelers,
Speaker 3: and they're like kind of archaic way of thinking as
Speaker 3: a franchise a little bit. But we're at thirty one
Speaker 3: and you know he can still make a few throws
Speaker 3: at times and look good for a quarter or two,
Speaker 3: and you know, inspire some hope. Just that arm is
Speaker 3: still pretty electric. So he's got that going for him.
Speaker 2: Right like Bryce.
Speaker 1: You have to run a very specific type of offense
Speaker 1: now with Aaron Rodgers, but it's not an offense I
Speaker 1: want to run. I always just just keep coming back
Speaker 1: to the number that stands out to me is when
Speaker 1: pressured last year, his success rate was worse than the
Speaker 1: league by a huge margin, like lower than I think Slacko,
Speaker 1: cam Ward and JJ where the JJ McCarthy were the
Speaker 1: next ones he just plays over essentially, So that leaves
Speaker 1: us at thirty two. I had Rodgers there at thirty one.
Speaker 1: I'm curious who you had here. I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 1: show you at least how I wrote it down. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure if I'm going to draft it this way,
Speaker 1: but these are the next guys. Tua is there, Jakobe
Speaker 1: Brissett's there, Michael Pennox is there, and I wrote down Mariota.
Speaker 2: But now we're getting pretty pretty deep.
Speaker 3: Mariota, that's the guy. That's why I had guy. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean we're thirty two. So it is what it is.
Speaker 3: But I think Washington's offense last year was actually, like
Speaker 3: by a lot of metrics if they were like eighteenth
Speaker 3: to twenties second.
Speaker 2: Yeah, his numbers were great last year.
Speaker 1: I think he's he's a good He's developed into one
Speaker 1: of the best backups in the league. He was eighth
Speaker 1: in completion percentage over expected, like led the league in
Speaker 1: downfield attempts, Like he's willing to throw it into tight windows,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of our rate stat and pretty
Speaker 1: average and success rate, Like there wasn't a big drop
Speaker 1: off Jayden to him.
Speaker 3: I think he's just, yeah, he doesn't. A lot of
Speaker 3: things about his game have kind of smoothed out. He's
Speaker 3: never going to be great, obviously, he's in those thirty
Speaker 3: second Range's career back if he's thirty, will be his
Speaker 3: age thirty three season. So like, obviously a lot of questions,
Speaker 3: But if you're just saying, like, does he give you
Speaker 3: a better chance to win? Would you rather have him
Speaker 3: than all the guys you mentioned, which are also the
Speaker 3: other guys that I've written out here, Yeah, I think
Speaker 3: he does. And I don't know I really saw it.
Speaker 1: I do think like with Stefanski, Sorry to. I do
Speaker 1: you think with Stefanski too could look a little more
Speaker 1: like to Again, he does have some skill set that
Speaker 1: I'm not totally giving up on. He is an NFL quarterback.
Speaker 1: To me, uh, that was a difficult situation. I think
Speaker 1: mentally everything, he was really just going through it. And
Speaker 1: yet my my producer, Eric Roberts knows me well, I mean,
Speaker 1: Jacoby's my guy. I'm just saying, you know, I've always
Speaker 1: been a team Jacoby. It's just a guy, and I
Speaker 1: can take him here at thirty two. What the hell,
Speaker 1: let's take let's take toa Kobe Brissette. There you go,
Speaker 1: Let's have some fun, just like I like Jacoby too.
Speaker 3: That's just it. I mean, he's next for me here
Speaker 3: here Panics were probably next for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be interesting.
Speaker 1: He just keeps having to learn a new offense every
Speaker 1: single season, Jacoby Brissett, and he's gonna have to sign
Speaker 1: that contract and get in and actually learn this offense.
Speaker 1: I think the I think the least is going to
Speaker 1: be very short for him. But for the most part,
Speaker 1: Patriots era accepted. Uh, you know, the two point zero
Speaker 1: with two I think for me, he's got to give
Speaker 1: you credible play, like you kind of know what you're
Speaker 1: getting with Jacoby, So I'm gonna take it.
Speaker 3: With two of for me just quickly to address him,
Speaker 3: I don't know when i'd pick him because the odds
Speaker 3: if I'm just picking them for twenty twenty six, because
Speaker 3: the odds he'd get hurt are high, I think, and
Speaker 3: then i'd have to be with a backup, and then
Speaker 3: the upside if he doesn't get hurt is not great
Speaker 3: enough for me to inherit the risk. So I that's
Speaker 3: where I kind of see his career at this point.
Speaker 3: So like maybe I'm over thinking it by by looking
Speaker 3: at it so practically, but I think that's probably why
Speaker 3: I wouldn't take him, maybe for another couple of spots
Speaker 3: even but it is possible that there's still a season
Speaker 3: in there for him, and like that he ends up
Speaker 3: being in this twenties range.
Speaker 1: He was the next one I wrote down because I
Speaker 1: actually think with with the fans GI, he might have
Speaker 1: the highest ceiling of these guys. Actually that I and
Speaker 1: it's it's not crazy, but we've seen his his ceiling
Speaker 1: where you're just like, okay, you know in rhythm he
Speaker 1: does what he does well in the right in the
Speaker 1: right offense like he can. He can get some buckets
Speaker 1: for you, but I don't trust him in the end,
Speaker 1: so I'm taking Jacoby.
Speaker 2: We did it done.
Speaker 1: We've we've been going a little longer with all these
Speaker 1: NFL Daily thirty twos as we've gone, and but you
Speaker 1: have we have set the record together.
Speaker 2: But it makes sense.
Speaker 3: It's the quarterbacks, that's right. It's a lot to talk about,
Speaker 3: it really is for this position, for sure, it's a lot.
Speaker 2: You're the best, John. I appreciate.
Speaker 1: Like I said, everyone check out his work audibles and
Speaker 1: analytics and then the podcast the read Optional and yeah,
Speaker 1: we wanted to give you a big chunky up. So
Speaker 1: because this is gonna be our last one of this week,
Speaker 1: it's gonna sit over the long holiday weekend as the
Speaker 1: NFL Daily crew hit that music.
Speaker 2: You know, it takes a nice little break, not much
Speaker 2: of one.
Speaker 1: We'll be back next week. Jordan Rodriguez covered there, and man,
Speaker 1: it was fun. I don't think we're done with NFL
Speaker 1: Daily thirty two, but we did. The receivers. We've got
Speaker 1: the skill positions now taken care of, and the quarterbacks
Speaker 1: are in the books. We will see you next week,
Speaker 1: enjoy the fourth of July.