WEBVTT - S2 – INTERVIEW 4: Nancy Rubin Stuart 0:00:01.080 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcomed Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minkey. 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:13.200 Our guest historian today is Nancy Ruben Stewart. She's an 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:16.680 award winning author and journalist whose biographies dig deep into 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:19.520 the lives of women who were power players during pivotal 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:23.880 moments in American history. Storytelling is her life's work. She's 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.640 the executive director of the Cape Cod Writer's Center in Massachusetts, 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.240 and she's co president of the Boston chapter of the 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:34.640 National Book Association. Researcher at Carl Nellis talked with Nancy 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:38.360 about her book on Maggie Fox, The Reluctant Spiritualist, which 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:42.920 retells Maggie's life in dramatic detail. About halfway through the conversation, 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.839 a storm rose up around the studio and forced us 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.519 to make some changes to the recording set up. It 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:52.279 made us wonder whether Maggie was pleased with the project, 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:54.600 but I think that you'll want to hear Nancy's side 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:58.040 of the story anyway, So we begin with Nancy's perspective 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:00.360 on what it took to be a spiritualist in the 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:05.039 nineteenth century. This is the Unobscured Interview series for season two. 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:29.040 I'm Aaron Mankey. To be a spiritualist in the nineteenth century, 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:33.280 I think would take quite a bit of pluck and bravery. Um, 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:39.200 depends on where you are, because you would either be revered, adored, admired, 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:45.360 or you would be despised and connected with all the 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.240 evil things in the world and all of the fears 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:55.440 in religion about communion with the devil. Mm hmm. So 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:58.320 what were the motivations then, So you say it would 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:01.279 take pluck and bravery. Uh, And that's that's so clear 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.160 in the lives of the people who were involved. But 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.680 what would motivate someone to to become a medium or 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:11.120 to go to a seance? Well, to become a medium, 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:17.600 I think, I mean the movement itself had huge residence 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:21.920 through society. You have to understand that in the nineteenth century, 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.280 especially in the early years and up to the Civil War, 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:30.920 there was great religious ferment and change. Um. Started with 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:35.400 the Second Great Awakening, which was sort of a refutation 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.440 in a way of many of the Enlightenment ideas of 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:45.160 reason and logic um. And so the Second Great Awakening 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:50.560 looked at the Romance really evolves from Romanticism English romanticism, 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:56.280 where um, you know that there's emotion and that human beings, Um, 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.960 there's something magical and mysterious about us. And so there's 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:04.280 a revival at that point of different and really transformation 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.919 of many different religious ideas, so that you have new 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.760 sex forming, you have revival meetings, you have camp meetings, 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:16.440 you have charismatic preachers, um, and you have questioning of 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:20.679 the old calvinistic ideas. That man was you know, imbued 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.120 with original sin and he must suffer and if he 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:25.200 didn't live a certain kind of a life, he would 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:28.280 he would burn in hell fire. All of this with 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:32.040 the changes that are going on around it in nineteenth 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:37.360 century American industrialism, cities, urbanization and so on, UM made 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.440 people think that, you know, there were there were other 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.320 ways to be a good person and other ways to 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:49.720 embrace the world. And so brotherhood and abolition and co education, 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:54.160 all of these themes start to come in. So questions 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:57.440 about religion, the old religion, and then questions about the 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:01.960 afterlife prevail and so there's sort of, I say, a 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.680 breakdown of the old, very old values and a look 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.400 at well maybe death, which by the way, was you know, 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:14.000 the life expectancy was short for children, um, for women 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:16.960 and for men. I mean in Massachusetts, for instance, the 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.640 life expectancy for a man was fifty For a woman 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.839 this is average was forty two. So death is all 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:25.400 around us every moment. So what is death? Is it 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:27.480 to be feared? Are we to burn in hell fire 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.799 for our sins um or? You know? Is death something 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:36.320 that is benevolent and kind and you know and infects 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.279 all of us and that therefore we shouldn't fear it. 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:44.760 So given that as a long background, um, so spiritualism 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.840 becomes the idea that one could commune with that the 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:52.320 human being is not just a body, just a logical, rational, 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.640 you know, set of tissues and cells and whatnot, but 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.839 is rather there's something higher, There's a spirit, and that 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:03.679 spirit cannot be quelled or die with with the body's death. 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:08.560 And so spiritualism is a communion with the spirits of 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.320 those who have gone, and a happy communion in general, 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:17.799 a positive one. So another kind of big picture question, 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:20.800 but that reframes the conversation just a bit. Is how 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.400 significant is spiritualism as a chapter in American history, particularly 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.480 for women in American maybe in American women's history. Well 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.960 it's yes, it's extremely significant for women. I'll come back 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.919 to that in a moment. But it's also UM. I 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.800 would say that it is. It is a conduit for 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:42.760 many things that are today greatly transformed from that because 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:48.400 it encompasses many different social movements UH, and encompasses early psychology, 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:54.000 It encompasses early political UM means of UM, you know, 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:59.520 looking to get rid of slavery. UM. It's it UM. 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:01.960 It has a whole whole. But besides what we know 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.600 about today, when we think about spiritualism, and I'm talking 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:10.679 now in the vernacular, psychics and crystals and all the 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:12.919 previous new age that went on in the in then 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:17.480 UM and so on, all of that really goes back 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.760 to what happened with spiritualism and this whole resurgence of 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:25.000 this idea of communing with spirits. So it's very important 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:27.960 movement UM, which we just really don't even think that 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:31.520 much about today except in certain circles. But as to women, 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:35.840 it's very important because women were very much involved in 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:40.640 UM in the very early days, with the pro social 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:45.479 movements of abolition in particular and brotherhood and obviously the 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:47.960 beginnings of women's rights, where you want to have equal 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:50.680 rights for everybody, that all souls are equal. I mean 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.839 we get into that whole aspect of religion, which I'll 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.520 come back to later. But UM, where all souls are equal, 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.880 therefore all people in a way, all all people of 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:06.120 all colors and races and creeds are equal, and so abolition, 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:11.119 which is which is sort of the driving force. People 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.760 like William Lloyd Garrison, for instance, was a spiritualist. So 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:19.760 there's a belief on that that spirits can should be 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.680 all spirits should be respected, and therefore so women in 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.880 their early, very early women's rights many of those people 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.160 UM actually sat at at some of the saying very 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:32.960 early sayance tables. In fact, you know, it's been said 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:35.760 that some of the early founders, by the way, people 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:39.520 like Elizabeth Katie stanton Um for instance, there are others 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.520 to them at Clintock's UM and some of the others, 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.480 the very early ones that that those tables that that 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:48.760 you know, this is all all blended in in the 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:54.440 in the very early days before the Seneca Falls Convention, 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.120 before we dive into the life of Maggie Fox, the 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.120 people that she knew, the events she was a part of. UM. 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:05.040 I wanted to ask one more question kind of about 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:07.920 about your work and your perspective, because in addition to 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:11.400 writing a biography of Maggie Fox, you've also written historical 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:15.360 biographies of Marjorie Meryweather Post and Merciotis Warren and Isabel 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.520 of Castile. And it made me wonder if there's a 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:21.559 common thread between the women that you've chosen to write 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:27.320 these long book length studies about. Yes, there is not 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:32.120 that it was ever, I guess in the beginning intentional, Um, 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:35.679 but I mean the first biography, well, I've written other 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.800 journalistic books before. They're on social trends and women. But 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.559 the first biography I wrote was on Isabella of cass Stile, 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.760 Queen Isabella. But you've mentioned the other books, so I 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:51.640 won't be labor that. But more importantly, I was curious, 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.880 and this is going way back. But really this is 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.040 going back now. You know in in you know earlier 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:02.320 that what what about women in power? And what happened 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:05.160 to the women in power? Much earlier than our time? 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.000 I mean right now we're having a great deal about 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:11.280 this again. Um but um, then, particularly with what's going 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.200 on within Me Too movement, But what happened to women 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.880 who had power? There were women occasionally in history who 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.800 had power and what happened to those who didn't have 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:25.160 power and why so my biographies all reflect that. That's 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:33.400 the link MHM. So let's step back into the eighteen forties. 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:39.200 M And you mentioned that it's this period of religious ferment, uh, 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.160 And some of what we're seeing in the history is 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:47.200 um some young traditions, some young denominations are starting to 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:51.439 grow in power and conflict with each other. Methodists, Universalists, 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.560 they're Shaker communities. And you mentioned the revivallest kind of 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.440 practices of camp meetings and circuit preaching and that kind 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.680 of thing. How did this kind of religious atmosphere open 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:06.800 space for spiritualism in particular, and which traditions in this 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:12.680 ferment were the strongest influences on Spiritualism's origin. Well, I 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:15.160 think it's it's again, it's a it's a mix. It 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.600 was what we'd call this eight guest of of the time, 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:20.840 the flavor of the time. What was sort of in 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.280 the air, what was being discussed, because all of this 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:27.120 was being discussed and experienced in Upstate New York in particular, 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:31.760 which by the way, was a very prosperous area because 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:36.040 the very canal had opened and so all the produce 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:40.200 and all the furs and all kinds of other things 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:42.120 that were coming from the North could now come down 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.000 through the canal uh into the Hudson and down to 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.480 New York City. So places like Rochester, New York, which 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.520 is near with the spiritualism, the official start of American 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:56.840 Spiritualism supposedly begins. UM. And I'll explain that in a minute. 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.960 Supposedly because there's a lot of other threads that feed 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:05.160 into that. Um so. So it's also Rochester, New York 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.960 is a very sophisticated at that point area. It's a city, 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:11.520 and it's prospering, and it has filled with ideas and 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:13.720 people have come in because again it's one of the 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:18.200 conduits for the early early the Erie Canal. And it's 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:22.000 it's um, you know, in its own way, quite sophisticated 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.600 in terms of ideas. But as it turns out, also 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.679 it's Rochester's in the middle of what was then in 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:33.240 western New York. And um, all of the sort of 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:38.800 the leading new religions UM. The Miller Rights would predict 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:41.360 at the end of the world, UM, you know, which 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:46.240 eventually becomes the Seven day Adventists. UM. The Shakers had 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.960 come from England, the Shakers were a branch of the Quakers, 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.640 but they called Shakers because they shook during their religious 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:58.720 ecstasy UM pronouncements. So the Shakers come from England, but 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:00.960 they also are settling up state in New York. And 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.679 of course the Mormons, UM the Book of Maroney and 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:08.440 UM Joseph Smith all start an upstate New York. So 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:12.360 there's enormous religious ferment. And out of that religious ferment, 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:16.520 by the way, also comes a skepticism eventually, because there's 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:19.000 so much of it. In fact, it's been called Western 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.440 New York at that time the burnt out area that 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.920 people were really burnt out with all of these camp meetings, 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:29.400 in these different religious expressions and meetings and and so on, 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:33.160 and so there's a sort of a quest for a 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:38.120 return to the simplicity. And you know, not that spiritualism 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:40.840 is simple, but the idea of it is that again 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:44.400 will come back to the all souls and the UM 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:48.200 pushes underground. Real road is really important in upstate New York. 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:53.120 Many many women in particular are helping UM, but men 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.400 too are helping slaves escape so they can escape up 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.440 to Canada and be free. So in all of that 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:03.400 the idea comes out. Now there's a man called Andrew 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:09.319 Jackson Davis. And Andrew Jackson Davis had based his ideas 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:13.320 on this idea of communion with the spirits UM with 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:18.520 an earlier UM European philosopher sweden Borg so sweden borgi 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:23.120 ism and Andrew Jackson. He then promotes a book UM 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:27.079 just before the Fox Sisters sort of begin and they 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.280 know nothing about they the girls know nothing about it, 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.960 but he promotes the idea of spirit communication again and 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:38.440 that one can communicate with spirits. Spirit communication is is ancient. 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:40.920 It's probably as old as mankind. I mean, it goes 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.319 way back into the Greek philosophers. It's it's in many 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:52.720 Asian religions. Um. The the Native Americans continued to worship spirits. 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:55.120 So this is not new, but he's given it kind 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.720 of a new twist. Uh So UM. That is the 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.760 bad ground for how this book, this book, The Divine 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:08.120 Revelations of Nature UM comes out as a best selling 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:11.600 book and it sweeps the country UM. And one of 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:15.120 the people who reads it is none other than than 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:21.120 the girls older sister Leah fox Fish. But the girls 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:25.000 don't know anything about this. They begin spiritualism in such 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:29.600 a humble way um by first trying to play tricks 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:35.200 on their mother that they're little farmhouse which is in um, 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.560 it's about thirty miles from Rochester, is haunted. I mean 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:43.840 it begins in such an incredibly folksy homey way um 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:47.080 and that's part of its appeal. Um. And they are 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:51.920 they Maggie Fox, the heroine of the main character in 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:56.000 my book is is fifteen and her sister Katie is twelve. 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:58.760 I mean, they know nothing about the other part. It's 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:06.960 just fantastic coincidence that that really ignites the beginning of spiritualism. 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.960 And can you describe in brief what it is that 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:14.200 they do that kicks this whole thing off? Sure? Well, 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.240 their mother is very superstitious. The girls had come, the 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.280 whole family had come from Rochester. So you have this 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.920 fifteen year old board Maggie Fox, she wants to be 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:26.400 back in Rochester. She's a teenager obviously, uh. And Katie, 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.320 who will a little sister, will follow her. And their 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:31.920 mother is so superstitious, and they live in this old 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:35.480 farmhouse and they start thinking about, well, who lived there before? 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.880 People lived here before, did people die here before? And 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.280 then they decided they're going to play jokes on their mother. 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:45.400 And so at first they're doing all kinds of things 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.440 somehow or other, and I've by the way, I've tried this, 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.640 it doesn't work for me. They have tried to make 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.960 sounds with their toes, um popping their toes, popping their 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:58.520 ankles and so on, um, to make these raps, these 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.440 ghostly raps that would occur at night. And then to 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:03.960 sort of hype this up, I mean, they keep practicing it. 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.160 They have a cousin actually Leah's daughter. Their their sisters, 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.560 their older sisters daughter who's with them at first, and 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.880 then to kind of rev this up, they tie strings 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.800 on apples and they mimic footsteps in the middle of 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:21.040 the night and scare them mother. Um. So that's really 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:25.840 how it begins, and she becomes convinced, and then they 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.160 they go too far with it. Then mother becomes so 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:33.560 convinced that they continue with it. They're they're thrilled by it. 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.920 And then they they say they think there's a spirit 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:39.960 they can communicate with, and they talk to it, and 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.360 then one will talk to it and the other other 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:46.240 one will make quietly wraps with her feet, and pretty 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:50.800 soon Mrs Fox becomes so excited and hysterical that she 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.640 invites in the neighbors. And now they're caught. So they 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:57.560 continue on with the seances, and of course the church, 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.520 the local method Methodist couple of churches not too happy 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.719 with him. But anyway, this becomes a crowd of sensation 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:09.400 and and people start coming from all over. And as 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.720 a man who I guess would be an investigative reporter 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.439 today who starts writing about them and visiting them, and 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:20.040 it gets promoted in newspapers in Rochester, and it really 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:24.520 becomes quite a sensation. And meanwhile Leiah, their oldest sister, 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.040 who is a single mother at this point in the 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.960 piano teacher in Rochester, who has read the Sweating the 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:36.040 Andrew Jackson Davis Um book and knows that all these 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.119 ideas that are going on when she's a piano teacher 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:41.640 to the wealthy in Rochester. She comes to find out 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.760 what is going on with her with this seance. By 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.360 now there are crowds of people, the people lining up 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:53.080 the whole Fox householders and cannot function this just it's 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.399 they can't control these scances. And every night they do 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.960 these seances. Um and Mrs Fox kind of sort of 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.280 announces them, and the girls are caught in this terrible 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.199 sort of why but they can't. You know, they're going 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.480 to be disgraced. Their parents will be disgraced if they 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:14.800 they refuted. And Leiah needs money. Um, and she's quite 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.920 a promoter. She's really a very good pr person. Um. 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:21.080 She brings them to Rochester and she she has them, 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.480 she forces them, she's sort of blackmails them. Actually she's 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.919 not the kindest person, and she blackmails them, um that 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:31.560 she's going to expose them if they don't continue these seances. 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.639 And then she tries to learn how to do these 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.000 movements with their toes. But she's older, she's in her thirties. 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.879 She can't move her feet the way they did. Um, 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.760 so she depends on them for that. And of course 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:46.679 eventually there's this newspaper hubbub continues. It ends up that 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.879 there it reaches I mean, there are people like Horace 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:51.720 Greeley in the New York Tribune and others, but he 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.959 in particular, who gets wind of it. He sends up 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:58.720 a reporter too to witness it. They attend all these seances. 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.720 You know, there's a lot of funny stories and strange 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:05.800 stories one can make the argument that these girls, through Leah, 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.560 would know about the people whose whose families so loved 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.080 ones had died, and so they learned a lot of information. 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.600 And when they sit in a darkened room and hold 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.199 hands and and sort of do a religious ceremony, you know, 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.359 blessing everyone with peace and contentment that they're going to 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:28.240 reach one of these deceased people. Um. And then suddenly 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:33.040 the raps come um. And then either Leiah interprets them 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:38.439 as to what it's about and relates intimate details about 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:42.360 this beloved one's lost one's life. People are amazed and 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:46.320 believe it. Um. But you know, there are many accounts, 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:50.560 not just then, but later on where you really have 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:55.760 to wonder whether there's whether they develop a clairvoyance, because 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.600 some of them are inexplicable, and it's threaded throughout the book, 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.560 but there are those other incidents. But anyway, it finally 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.960 gets to be so big, and meanwhile the church is 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.440 of course a horrified they think these girls are, which is, 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:13.840 they are communing with something they shouldn't be communing with 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:17.639 the dead. So that there, you know, again, as I 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.360 said earlier, they're they're you know, they're death threats against them, 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.480 and they have to be you know, very careful where 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:28.119 they go. Um, and some very religious clergy and people 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.760 in Rochester threatened to kill them and run them out 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:35.800 of town or tar tar and feather them at the least. Anyway, 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:42.800 they end up in November of forty forty eight, UM, 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:48.000 they end up on a huge stage um in Corinthian Hall, 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.639 which is a grand hall in Rochester at that time, 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:55.000 and they give a seance, but other reps are just 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:58.960 very vaguely heard, and it's obviously a rather large auditorium. 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:02.680 The presses there, one of Horace Greeley's reporters there from 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.520 New York. There are other reporters there and um from 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:11.000 the Rochester papers and elsewhere and upstate New York and UM. 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:15.879 So there's outcry, are they frauds? Are they hoaxes? What 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:20.399 what's happening? And there's a committee appointed to examine the girls, 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:25.000 particularly Leiah and Maggie at this point, to find out 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:27.320 what they're making these sons with their body that they 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.880 must be. So these these examinations go on for four 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.199 or five days, um, several of them. Because it's an 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:37.800 age of modesty for women with the women, um, you know, 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:40.520 having them be basically underressed down to their underwear and 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:44.440 examining them. And and there's all kinds of prominent people 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:48.480 who are now believers, um, everything from you know, city 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:54.480 officials to judges and even senators because they have had 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:57.520 the opportunity to be in a seance and communicate with 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:00.560 a loved one. And most of the time the messages, 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.840 by the way, are reassuring, um to the people who 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:08.200 are still grieving. So that that goes on for five 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:12.920 days with these examinations, but nothing is is determined, and 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:17.720 the publicity on this spreads is they continue to do 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:20.840 these seances, which by the way, layers pocketing most of 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:24.520 the money, um, which Maggie and one of her books 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:29.720 um later on the missing link to spiritualism um you 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:34.440 know later much later in life bitterly describes. But anyway, 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:39.959 it grows, the movement grows, and within a year or two, um, 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:43.160 I mean they're they're nationally known. There are child mediums 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:45.679 springing up in other places. There are spirit circles that 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:49.000 are now in seven or eight cities across America. Um, 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:52.280 you know, from Philadelphia to San Francisco. People become believes 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:54.720 there are new mediums. I mean the idea for a 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:58.280 medium was you had a pretty untainted spirit that you 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:03.120 could commune with yourself. You were a living person who 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:06.199 had you know, you were innocent, you were able, and 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:10.760 you were able to receive these these perceptions in these messages. 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:13.439 So there are many many child mediums, and then of 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:16.920 course in particular women mediums because they were so much 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:21.360 more protected from quotes the real hustle bustle male world 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:25.080 in the nineteenth century. And eventually they get to New 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:31.400 York where Horace Greeley again um is kind of watching 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:33.879 them and promoting them and being kind to them and 0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:37.560 meeting them, and they're staying in you know, wonderful hotels, 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:42.720 their Broadway Broadway doll song written about them. There were 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:45.240 dolls that have made replica. You know. It was became 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:50.640 a rage all over um. So now you have these 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:54.160 country girls who were being brought up into this, this 0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:59.359 entire venue h this this whole way of thinking about 0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:04.200 people and learning about them and trying to interpret what 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:07.200 what the what these spirits are saying when there are 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:13.160 these seances. It's an incredible movement. Um. By by eighteen 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:19.159 fifty four, there are fifteen thousand petitions signed signed in 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:24.760 the petition by some very prominent senators and judges and 0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:28.320 so on, and it's brought to Congress because now it's 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:32.000 become this outrage. I mean, the religions are all up 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.919 in the air about the standard religions. But you know, 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:38.560 there's a funny discussion that goes on about how to 0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:41.800 how to do this in Congress, but ultimately it's it's 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:45.679 it's tabled for the moment um, but it I just 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:48.840 want to mention that because it just shows you the 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:53.480 enormity of the popularity of it, and UM, the the 0:24:53.640 --> 0:24:58.600 fantastic publicity that surrounded this early movement, and you mentioned 0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:01.240 that some of that publicity is is positive and they 0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:05.639 make friends among the press like Horse Greeley. At the 0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:08.639 same time, some of the doubts, right that started at 0:25:08.640 --> 0:25:12.320 the very beginning, like you mentioned, continue on after that 0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:16.720 first investigation in UM, there's also an eighteen fifty one 0:25:16.720 --> 0:25:20.760 investigation where they bring in Buffalo University faculty and and 0:25:20.800 --> 0:25:23.400 they have a relative, Mrs Culver, who publishes an account 0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:26.760 saying that Maggie admitted to her how they made the 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:28.520 raps and the fact that they were staged and that 0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:33.760 kind of thing. What effect did the these kind of 0:25:33.920 --> 0:25:38.480 personal pushbacks are the constant scrutiny have on Maggie box 0:25:38.600 --> 0:25:42.800 Say in particular, Well, you know, it's interesting. I mean, 0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:47.240 she doesn't she at least in the beginning, does not 0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:50.000 love this. She's kind of roped into it. She's kind 0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:53.560 of caught in it. You know, she's one of the 0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:56.960 she's really more in the beginning, more the one who 0:25:57.000 --> 0:26:00.240 does it more than Katie. Katie learns. Katie seems to 0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:05.520