Speaker 1: Welcomed Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minkey.
Speaker 1: Our guest historian today is Nancy Ruben Stewart. She's an
Speaker 1: award winning author and journalist whose biographies dig deep into
Speaker 1: the lives of women who were power players during pivotal
Speaker 1: moments in American history. Storytelling is her life's work. She's
Speaker 1: the executive director of the Cape Cod Writer's Center in Massachusetts,
Speaker 1: and she's co president of the Boston chapter of the
Speaker 1: National Book Association. Researcher at Carl Nellis talked with Nancy
Speaker 1: about her book on Maggie Fox, The Reluctant Spiritualist, which
Speaker 1: retells Maggie's life in dramatic detail. About halfway through the conversation,
Speaker 1: a storm rose up around the studio and forced us
Speaker 1: to make some changes to the recording set up. It
Speaker 1: made us wonder whether Maggie was pleased with the project,
Speaker 1: but I think that you'll want to hear Nancy's side
Speaker 1: of the story anyway, So we begin with Nancy's perspective
Speaker 1: on what it took to be a spiritualist in the
Speaker 1: nineteenth century. This is the Unobscured Interview series for season two.
Speaker 1: I'm Aaron Mankey. To be a spiritualist in the nineteenth century,
Speaker 1: I think would take quite a bit of pluck and bravery. Um,
Speaker 1: depends on where you are, because you would either be revered, adored, admired,
Speaker 1: or you would be despised and connected with all the
Speaker 1: evil things in the world and all of the fears
Speaker 1: in religion about communion with the devil. Mm hmm. So
Speaker 1: what were the motivations then, So you say it would
Speaker 1: take pluck and bravery. Uh, And that's that's so clear
Speaker 1: in the lives of the people who were involved. But
Speaker 1: what would motivate someone to to become a medium or
Speaker 1: to go to a seance? Well, to become a medium,
Speaker 1: I think, I mean the movement itself had huge residence
Speaker 1: through society. You have to understand that in the nineteenth century,
Speaker 1: especially in the early years and up to the Civil War,
Speaker 1: there was great religious ferment and change. Um. Started with
Speaker 1: the Second Great Awakening, which was sort of a refutation
Speaker 1: in a way of many of the Enlightenment ideas of
Speaker 1: reason and logic um. And so the Second Great Awakening
Speaker 1: looked at the Romance really evolves from Romanticism English romanticism,
Speaker 1: where um, you know that there's emotion and that human beings, Um,
Speaker 1: there's something magical and mysterious about us. And so there's
Speaker 1: a revival at that point of different and really transformation
Speaker 1: of many different religious ideas, so that you have new
Speaker 1: sex forming, you have revival meetings, you have camp meetings,
Speaker 1: you have charismatic preachers, um, and you have questioning of
Speaker 1: the old calvinistic ideas. That man was you know, imbued
Speaker 1: with original sin and he must suffer and if he
Speaker 1: didn't live a certain kind of a life, he would
Speaker 1: he would burn in hell fire. All of this with
Speaker 1: the changes that are going on around it in nineteenth
Speaker 1: century American industrialism, cities, urbanization and so on, UM made
Speaker 1: people think that, you know, there were there were other
Speaker 1: ways to be a good person and other ways to
Speaker 1: embrace the world. And so brotherhood and abolition and co education,
Speaker 1: all of these themes start to come in. So questions
Speaker 1: about religion, the old religion, and then questions about the
Speaker 1: afterlife prevail and so there's sort of, I say, a
Speaker 1: breakdown of the old, very old values and a look
Speaker 1: at well maybe death, which by the way, was you know,
Speaker 1: the life expectancy was short for children, um, for women
Speaker 1: and for men. I mean in Massachusetts, for instance, the
Speaker 1: life expectancy for a man was fifty For a woman
Speaker 1: this is average was forty two. So death is all
Speaker 1: around us every moment. So what is death? Is it
Speaker 1: to be feared? Are we to burn in hell fire
Speaker 1: for our sins um or? You know? Is death something
Speaker 1: that is benevolent and kind and you know and infects
Speaker 1: all of us and that therefore we shouldn't fear it.
Speaker 1: So given that as a long background, um, so spiritualism
Speaker 1: becomes the idea that one could commune with that the
Speaker 1: human being is not just a body, just a logical, rational,
Speaker 1: you know, set of tissues and cells and whatnot, but
Speaker 1: is rather there's something higher, There's a spirit, and that
Speaker 1: spirit cannot be quelled or die with with the body's death.
Speaker 1: And so spiritualism is a communion with the spirits of
Speaker 1: those who have gone, and a happy communion in general,
Speaker 1: a positive one. So another kind of big picture question,
Speaker 1: but that reframes the conversation just a bit. Is how
Speaker 1: significant is spiritualism as a chapter in American history, particularly
Speaker 1: for women in American maybe in American women's history. Well
Speaker 1: it's yes, it's extremely significant for women. I'll come back
Speaker 1: to that in a moment. But it's also UM. I
Speaker 1: would say that it is. It is a conduit for
Speaker 1: many things that are today greatly transformed from that because
Speaker 1: it encompasses many different social movements UH, and encompasses early psychology,
Speaker 1: It encompasses early political UM means of UM, you know,
Speaker 1: looking to get rid of slavery. UM. It's it UM.
Speaker 1: It has a whole whole. But besides what we know
Speaker 1: about today, when we think about spiritualism, and I'm talking
Speaker 1: now in the vernacular, psychics and crystals and all the
Speaker 1: previous new age that went on in the in then
Speaker 1: UM and so on, all of that really goes back
Speaker 1: to what happened with spiritualism and this whole resurgence of
Speaker 1: this idea of communing with spirits. So it's very important
Speaker 1: movement UM, which we just really don't even think that
Speaker 1: much about today except in certain circles. But as to women,
Speaker 1: it's very important because women were very much involved in
Speaker 1: UM in the very early days, with the pro social
Speaker 1: movements of abolition in particular and brotherhood and obviously the
Speaker 1: beginnings of women's rights, where you want to have equal
Speaker 1: rights for everybody, that all souls are equal. I mean
Speaker 1: we get into that whole aspect of religion, which I'll
Speaker 1: come back to later. But UM, where all souls are equal,
Speaker 1: therefore all people in a way, all all people of
Speaker 1: all colors and races and creeds are equal, and so abolition,
Speaker 1: which is which is sort of the driving force. People
Speaker 1: like William Lloyd Garrison, for instance, was a spiritualist. So
Speaker 1: there's a belief on that that spirits can should be
Speaker 1: all spirits should be respected, and therefore so women in
Speaker 1: their early, very early women's rights many of those people
Speaker 1: UM actually sat at at some of the saying very
Speaker 1: early sayance tables. In fact, you know, it's been said
Speaker 1: that some of the early founders, by the way, people
Speaker 1: like Elizabeth Katie stanton Um for instance, there are others
Speaker 1: to them at Clintock's UM and some of the others,
Speaker 1: the very early ones that that those tables that that
Speaker 1: you know, this is all all blended in in the
Speaker 1: in the very early days before the Seneca Falls Convention,
Speaker 1: before we dive into the life of Maggie Fox, the
Speaker 1: people that she knew, the events she was a part of. UM.
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask one more question kind of about
Speaker 1: about your work and your perspective, because in addition to
Speaker 1: writing a biography of Maggie Fox, you've also written historical
Speaker 1: biographies of Marjorie Meryweather Post and Merciotis Warren and Isabel
Speaker 1: of Castile. And it made me wonder if there's a
Speaker 1: common thread between the women that you've chosen to write
Speaker 1: these long book length studies about. Yes, there is not
Speaker 1: that it was ever, I guess in the beginning intentional, Um,
Speaker 1: but I mean the first biography, well, I've written other
Speaker 1: journalistic books before. They're on social trends and women. But
Speaker 1: the first biography I wrote was on Isabella of cass Stile,
Speaker 1: Queen Isabella. But you've mentioned the other books, so I
Speaker 1: won't be labor that. But more importantly, I was curious,
Speaker 1: and this is going way back. But really this is
Speaker 1: going back now. You know in in you know earlier
Speaker 1: that what what about women in power? And what happened
Speaker 1: to the women in power? Much earlier than our time?
Speaker 1: I mean right now we're having a great deal about
Speaker 1: this again. Um but um, then, particularly with what's going
Speaker 1: on within Me Too movement, But what happened to women
Speaker 1: who had power? There were women occasionally in history who
Speaker 1: had power and what happened to those who didn't have
Speaker 1: power and why so my biographies all reflect that. That's
Speaker 1: the link MHM. So let's step back into the eighteen forties.
Speaker 1: M And you mentioned that it's this period of religious ferment, uh,
Speaker 1: And some of what we're seeing in the history is
Speaker 1: um some young traditions, some young denominations are starting to
Speaker 1: grow in power and conflict with each other. Methodists, Universalists,
Speaker 1: they're Shaker communities. And you mentioned the revivallest kind of
Speaker 1: practices of camp meetings and circuit preaching and that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. How did this kind of religious atmosphere open
Speaker 1: space for spiritualism in particular, and which traditions in this
Speaker 1: ferment were the strongest influences on Spiritualism's origin. Well, I
Speaker 1: think it's it's again, it's a it's a mix. It
Speaker 1: was what we'd call this eight guest of of the time,
Speaker 1: the flavor of the time. What was sort of in
Speaker 1: the air, what was being discussed, because all of this
Speaker 1: was being discussed and experienced in Upstate New York in particular,
Speaker 1: which by the way, was a very prosperous area because
Speaker 1: the very canal had opened and so all the produce
Speaker 1: and all the furs and all kinds of other things
Speaker 1: that were coming from the North could now come down
Speaker 1: through the canal uh into the Hudson and down to
Speaker 1: New York City. So places like Rochester, New York, which
Speaker 1: is near with the spiritualism, the official start of American
Speaker 1: Spiritualism supposedly begins. UM. And I'll explain that in a minute.
Speaker 1: Supposedly because there's a lot of other threads that feed
Speaker 1: into that. Um so. So it's also Rochester, New York
Speaker 1: is a very sophisticated at that point area. It's a city,
Speaker 1: and it's prospering, and it has filled with ideas and
Speaker 1: people have come in because again it's one of the
Speaker 1: conduits for the early early the Erie Canal. And it's
Speaker 1: it's um, you know, in its own way, quite sophisticated
Speaker 1: in terms of ideas. But as it turns out, also
Speaker 1: it's Rochester's in the middle of what was then in
Speaker 1: western New York. And um, all of the sort of
Speaker 1: the leading new religions UM. The Miller Rights would predict
Speaker 1: at the end of the world, UM, you know, which
Speaker 1: eventually becomes the Seven day Adventists. UM. The Shakers had
Speaker 1: come from England, the Shakers were a branch of the Quakers,
Speaker 1: but they called Shakers because they shook during their religious
Speaker 1: ecstasy UM pronouncements. So the Shakers come from England, but
Speaker 1: they also are settling up state in New York. And
Speaker 1: of course the Mormons, UM the Book of Maroney and
Speaker 1: UM Joseph Smith all start an upstate New York. So
Speaker 1: there's enormous religious ferment. And out of that religious ferment,
Speaker 1: by the way, also comes a skepticism eventually, because there's
Speaker 1: so much of it. In fact, it's been called Western
Speaker 1: New York at that time the burnt out area that
Speaker 1: people were really burnt out with all of these camp meetings,
Speaker 1: in these different religious expressions and meetings and and so on,
Speaker 1: and so there's a sort of a quest for a
Speaker 1: return to the simplicity. And you know, not that spiritualism
Speaker 1: is simple, but the idea of it is that again
Speaker 1: will come back to the all souls and the UM
Speaker 1: pushes underground. Real road is really important in upstate New York.
Speaker 1: Many many women in particular are helping UM, but men
Speaker 1: too are helping slaves escape so they can escape up
Speaker 1: to Canada and be free. So in all of that
Speaker 1: the idea comes out. Now there's a man called Andrew
Speaker 1: Jackson Davis. And Andrew Jackson Davis had based his ideas
Speaker 1: on this idea of communion with the spirits UM with
Speaker 1: an earlier UM European philosopher sweden Borg so sweden borgi
Speaker 1: ism and Andrew Jackson. He then promotes a book UM
Speaker 1: just before the Fox Sisters sort of begin and they
Speaker 1: know nothing about they the girls know nothing about it,
Speaker 1: but he promotes the idea of spirit communication again and
Speaker 1: that one can communicate with spirits. Spirit communication is is ancient.
Speaker 1: It's probably as old as mankind. I mean, it goes
Speaker 1: way back into the Greek philosophers. It's it's in many
Speaker 1: Asian religions. Um. The the Native Americans continued to worship spirits.
Speaker 1: So this is not new, but he's given it kind
Speaker 1: of a new twist. Uh So UM. That is the
Speaker 1: bad ground for how this book, this book, The Divine
Speaker 1: Revelations of Nature UM comes out as a best selling
Speaker 1: book and it sweeps the country UM. And one of
Speaker 1: the people who reads it is none other than than
Speaker 1: the girls older sister Leah fox Fish. But the girls
Speaker 1: don't know anything about this. They begin spiritualism in such
Speaker 1: a humble way um by first trying to play tricks
Speaker 1: on their mother that they're little farmhouse which is in um,
Speaker 1: it's about thirty miles from Rochester, is haunted. I mean
Speaker 1: it begins in such an incredibly folksy homey way um
Speaker 1: and that's part of its appeal. Um. And they are
Speaker 1: they Maggie Fox, the heroine of the main character in
Speaker 1: my book is is fifteen and her sister Katie is twelve.
Speaker 1: I mean, they know nothing about the other part. It's
Speaker 1: just fantastic coincidence that that really ignites the beginning of spiritualism.
Speaker 1: And can you describe in brief what it is that
Speaker 1: they do that kicks this whole thing off? Sure? Well,
Speaker 1: their mother is very superstitious. The girls had come, the
Speaker 1: whole family had come from Rochester. So you have this
Speaker 1: fifteen year old board Maggie Fox, she wants to be
Speaker 1: back in Rochester. She's a teenager obviously, uh. And Katie,
Speaker 1: who will a little sister, will follow her. And their
Speaker 1: mother is so superstitious, and they live in this old
Speaker 1: farmhouse and they start thinking about, well, who lived there before?
Speaker 1: People lived here before, did people die here before? And
Speaker 1: then they decided they're going to play jokes on their mother.
Speaker 1: And so at first they're doing all kinds of things
Speaker 1: somehow or other, and I've by the way, I've tried this,
Speaker 1: it doesn't work for me. They have tried to make
Speaker 1: sounds with their toes, um popping their toes, popping their
Speaker 1: ankles and so on, um, to make these raps, these
Speaker 1: ghostly raps that would occur at night. And then to
Speaker 1: sort of hype this up, I mean, they keep practicing it.
Speaker 1: They have a cousin actually Leah's daughter. Their their sisters,
Speaker 1: their older sisters daughter who's with them at first, and
Speaker 1: then to kind of rev this up, they tie strings
Speaker 1: on apples and they mimic footsteps in the middle of
Speaker 1: the night and scare them mother. Um. So that's really
Speaker 1: how it begins, and she becomes convinced, and then they
Speaker 1: they go too far with it. Then mother becomes so
Speaker 1: convinced that they continue with it. They're they're thrilled by it.
Speaker 1: And then they they say they think there's a spirit
Speaker 1: they can communicate with, and they talk to it, and
Speaker 1: then one will talk to it and the other other
Speaker 1: one will make quietly wraps with her feet, and pretty
Speaker 1: soon Mrs Fox becomes so excited and hysterical that she
Speaker 1: invites in the neighbors. And now they're caught. So they
Speaker 1: continue on with the seances, and of course the church,
Speaker 1: the local method Methodist couple of churches not too happy
Speaker 1: with him. But anyway, this becomes a crowd of sensation
Speaker 1: and and people start coming from all over. And as
Speaker 1: a man who I guess would be an investigative reporter
Speaker 1: today who starts writing about them and visiting them, and
Speaker 1: it gets promoted in newspapers in Rochester, and it really
Speaker 1: becomes quite a sensation. And meanwhile Leiah, their oldest sister,
Speaker 1: who is a single mother at this point in the
Speaker 1: piano teacher in Rochester, who has read the Sweating the
Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson Davis Um book and knows that all these
Speaker 1: ideas that are going on when she's a piano teacher
Speaker 1: to the wealthy in Rochester. She comes to find out
Speaker 1: what is going on with her with this seance. By
Speaker 1: now there are crowds of people, the people lining up
Speaker 1: the whole Fox householders and cannot function this just it's
Speaker 1: they can't control these scances. And every night they do
Speaker 1: these seances. Um and Mrs Fox kind of sort of
Speaker 1: announces them, and the girls are caught in this terrible
Speaker 1: sort of why but they can't. You know, they're going
Speaker 1: to be disgraced. Their parents will be disgraced if they
Speaker 1: they refuted. And Leiah needs money. Um, and she's quite
Speaker 1: a promoter. She's really a very good pr person. Um.
Speaker 1: She brings them to Rochester and she she has them,
Speaker 1: she forces them, she's sort of blackmails them. Actually she's
Speaker 1: not the kindest person, and she blackmails them, um that
Speaker 1: she's going to expose them if they don't continue these seances.
Speaker 1: And then she tries to learn how to do these
Speaker 1: movements with their toes. But she's older, she's in her thirties.
Speaker 1: She can't move her feet the way they did. Um,
Speaker 1: so she depends on them for that. And of course
Speaker 1: eventually there's this newspaper hubbub continues. It ends up that
Speaker 1: there it reaches I mean, there are people like Horace
Speaker 1: Greeley in the New York Tribune and others, but he
Speaker 1: in particular, who gets wind of it. He sends up
Speaker 1: a reporter too to witness it. They attend all these seances.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of funny stories and strange
Speaker 1: stories one can make the argument that these girls, through Leah,
Speaker 1: would know about the people whose whose families so loved
Speaker 1: ones had died, and so they learned a lot of information.
Speaker 1: And when they sit in a darkened room and hold
Speaker 1: hands and and sort of do a religious ceremony, you know,
Speaker 1: blessing everyone with peace and contentment that they're going to
Speaker 1: reach one of these deceased people. Um. And then suddenly
Speaker 1: the raps come um. And then either Leiah interprets them
Speaker 1: as to what it's about and relates intimate details about
Speaker 1: this beloved one's lost one's life. People are amazed and
Speaker 1: believe it. Um. But you know, there are many accounts,
Speaker 1: not just then, but later on where you really have
Speaker 1: to wonder whether there's whether they develop a clairvoyance, because
Speaker 1: some of them are inexplicable, and it's threaded throughout the book,
Speaker 1: but there are those other incidents. But anyway, it finally
Speaker 1: gets to be so big, and meanwhile the church is
Speaker 1: of course a horrified they think these girls are, which is,
Speaker 1: they are communing with something they shouldn't be communing with
Speaker 1: the dead. So that there, you know, again, as I
Speaker 1: said earlier, they're they're you know, they're death threats against them,
Speaker 1: and they have to be you know, very careful where
Speaker 1: they go. Um, and some very religious clergy and people
Speaker 1: in Rochester threatened to kill them and run them out
Speaker 1: of town or tar tar and feather them at the least. Anyway,
Speaker 1: they end up in November of forty forty eight, UM,
Speaker 1: they end up on a huge stage um in Corinthian Hall,
Speaker 1: which is a grand hall in Rochester at that time,
Speaker 1: and they give a seance, but other reps are just
Speaker 1: very vaguely heard, and it's obviously a rather large auditorium.
Speaker 1: The presses there, one of Horace Greeley's reporters there from
Speaker 1: New York. There are other reporters there and um from
Speaker 1: the Rochester papers and elsewhere and upstate New York and UM.
Speaker 1: So there's outcry, are they frauds? Are they hoaxes? What
Speaker 1: what's happening? And there's a committee appointed to examine the girls,
Speaker 1: particularly Leiah and Maggie at this point, to find out
Speaker 1: what they're making these sons with their body that they
Speaker 1: must be. So these these examinations go on for four
Speaker 1: or five days, um, several of them. Because it's an
Speaker 1: age of modesty for women with the women, um, you know,
Speaker 1: having them be basically underressed down to their underwear and
Speaker 1: examining them. And and there's all kinds of prominent people
Speaker 1: who are now believers, um, everything from you know, city
Speaker 1: officials to judges and even senators because they have had
Speaker 1: the opportunity to be in a seance and communicate with
Speaker 1: a loved one. And most of the time the messages,
Speaker 1: by the way, are reassuring, um to the people who
Speaker 1: are still grieving. So that that goes on for five
Speaker 1: days with these examinations, but nothing is is determined, and
Speaker 1: the publicity on this spreads is they continue to do
Speaker 1: these seances, which by the way, layers pocketing most of
Speaker 1: the money, um, which Maggie and one of her books
Speaker 1: um later on the missing link to spiritualism um you
Speaker 1: know later much later in life bitterly describes. But anyway,
Speaker 1: it grows, the movement grows, and within a year or two, um,
Speaker 1: I mean they're they're nationally known. There are child mediums
Speaker 1: springing up in other places. There are spirit circles that
Speaker 1: are now in seven or eight cities across America. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, from Philadelphia to San Francisco. People become believes
Speaker 1: there are new mediums. I mean the idea for a
Speaker 1: medium was you had a pretty untainted spirit that you
Speaker 1: could commune with yourself. You were a living person who
Speaker 1: had you know, you were innocent, you were able, and
Speaker 1: you were able to receive these these perceptions in these messages.
Speaker 1: So there are many many child mediums, and then of
Speaker 1: course in particular women mediums because they were so much
Speaker 1: more protected from quotes the real hustle bustle male world
Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century. And eventually they get to New
Speaker 1: York where Horace Greeley again um is kind of watching
Speaker 1: them and promoting them and being kind to them and
Speaker 1: meeting them, and they're staying in you know, wonderful hotels,
Speaker 1: their Broadway Broadway doll song written about them. There were
Speaker 1: dolls that have made replica. You know. It was became
Speaker 1: a rage all over um. So now you have these
Speaker 1: country girls who were being brought up into this, this
Speaker 1: entire venue h this this whole way of thinking about
Speaker 1: people and learning about them and trying to interpret what
Speaker 1: what the what these spirits are saying when there are
Speaker 1: these seances. It's an incredible movement. Um. By by eighteen
Speaker 1: fifty four, there are fifteen thousand petitions signed signed in
Speaker 1: the petition by some very prominent senators and judges and
Speaker 1: so on, and it's brought to Congress because now it's
Speaker 1: become this outrage. I mean, the religions are all up
Speaker 1: in the air about the standard religions. But you know,
Speaker 1: there's a funny discussion that goes on about how to
Speaker 1: how to do this in Congress, but ultimately it's it's
Speaker 1: it's tabled for the moment um, but it I just
Speaker 1: want to mention that because it just shows you the
Speaker 1: enormity of the popularity of it, and UM, the the
Speaker 1: fantastic publicity that surrounded this early movement, and you mentioned
Speaker 1: that some of that publicity is is positive and they
Speaker 1: make friends among the press like Horse Greeley. At the
Speaker 1: same time, some of the doubts, right that started at
Speaker 1: the very beginning, like you mentioned, continue on after that
Speaker 1: first investigation in UM, there's also an eighteen fifty one
Speaker 1: investigation where they bring in Buffalo University faculty and and
Speaker 1: they have a relative, Mrs Culver, who publishes an account
Speaker 1: saying that Maggie admitted to her how they made the
Speaker 1: raps and the fact that they were staged and that
Speaker 1: kind of thing. What effect did the these kind of
Speaker 1: personal pushbacks are the constant scrutiny have on Maggie box
Speaker 1: Say in particular, Well, you know, it's interesting. I mean,
Speaker 1: she doesn't she at least in the beginning, does not
Speaker 1: love this. She's kind of roped into it. She's kind
Speaker 1: of caught in it. You know, she's one of the
Speaker 1: she's really more in the beginning, more the one who
Speaker 1: does it more than Katie. Katie learns. Katie seems to
Speaker 1: become quite clairvoyant. Um. But Maggie at times has gone
Speaker 1: on strike with her sister Leia because she resents the
Speaker 1: fact that Laya is so overbearing and grasping, and she
Speaker 1: seems to keep all the money to herself. And while
Speaker 1: they live well in there, you know they probably have bodyguards, um,
Speaker 1: dressed well and their celebrities. Um, she's just not completely
Speaker 1: pleased with it. You know. I just want to say,
Speaker 1: there are there are distinguished people who all sort of
Speaker 1: weigh in on this. Besides doctors and senators in Congress
Speaker 1: and so, and they're distinguished writers and thinkers who also
Speaker 1: weigh in on this. People like Ralph Waldo Emerson, who,
Speaker 1: while transcendentalism is is his his pet philosophy, transcendentalism, meaning
Speaker 1: that this world is only a shadow what was this
Speaker 1: physical world is only a shadow of a larger spiritual one.
Speaker 1: I mean again, this is part of the whole, the
Speaker 1: whole aura of the time. But but you know, he
Speaker 1: becomes disgusted, and he finally he calls it a rat revelation,
Speaker 1: that the gospel that comes in by raps in the wall,
Speaker 1: uh and bumps in the table drawer. And James Russell Lowett,
Speaker 1: the poet, condemns it. And Henry David throw says and
Speaker 1: he thinks people who believed it were idiots inspired by
Speaker 1: the crackling of a restless board. Um. And yet there
Speaker 1: are famous professors like like um uh professor emeritus of
Speaker 1: University Pennsylvania, chemist Robert Harry becomes a believer. Um so.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so Maggie at times um has rebelled and
Speaker 1: this has not worked too well, and she's again caught
Speaker 1: up in this this whole kind of a whirlwind of
Speaker 1: publicity and fame and celebrityhood and attention and so on.
Speaker 1: But she's she and I I'll call it the reluctant
Speaker 1: spiritual because she's again she's kind of she's kind of
Speaker 1: forced into keep keep doing this, and she has she
Speaker 1: has at least a sense activity to people and maybe
Speaker 1: some clairvoyance. It would seem that way from some of
Speaker 1: the later reports Um in my book, I I really
Speaker 1: don't judge who I tell the story because I'm a storyteller,
Speaker 1: but I don't judge whether I mean there are clairvoyance,
Speaker 1: there are people who work for the police department today,
Speaker 1: and and other things that have happened that there are
Speaker 1: occasionally people who you know, who seem to be able
Speaker 1: to predict or understand UM something that isn't obvious to
Speaker 1: the rest of us. So Maggie has become by now
Speaker 1: she's she's an eighteen nineteen and she's Leah wants to
Speaker 1: spread out the people who do the science, as Katie
Speaker 1: is already fifteen or sixteen. So she's got Katie in
Speaker 1: New York to work with her, and they do tours
Speaker 1: really all over by railroad. But Katie UM, and Katie
Speaker 1: seems is now a beautiful young woman. Also they're both
Speaker 1: very good looking, which certainly helped Um have both men
Speaker 1: and women admire them on the in the seance circle
Speaker 1: and be close to these celebrities. But Maggie finally goes
Speaker 1: to the Web Hotel in Philadelphia and she's giving she
Speaker 1: gives seances there. I'm going to stop there because it
Speaker 1: starts her her whole other story, right, and I want
Speaker 1: to actually I want to jump to that in just
Speaker 1: a minute. But there's an episode, there's a there's a
Speaker 1: kind of dramatic episode in Troy, New York as well
Speaker 1: for Maggie. Um, right before she gets to Philadelphia. Do
Speaker 1: you remember the details of that. She is remarkable, is
Speaker 1: all I can say. It's it's it's very strange. Um.
Speaker 1: But again, there are terrible death threats that are made
Speaker 1: for them, towards them, and and so so it is
Speaker 1: with with Maggie, and she just doesn't want to go on.
Speaker 1: I mean, she's she's kind of a nervous character where
Speaker 1: you can understand why she's kind of nervous and she
Speaker 1: just doesn't want to go on. But she's again she's
Speaker 1: caught up in this forced to go on. It's it's
Speaker 1: too late to refute it. Too many now thousands of
Speaker 1: people and too many things that have happened, and so
Speaker 1: she must continue. Well, then let's jump to Philadelphia and
Speaker 1: that other part of her life that opens up when
Speaker 1: she meets Elisha. Yeah, Elishah Cancaine was a from an
Speaker 1: elite Philadelphia family. His father was a judge UM, and mother,
Speaker 1: you know, was you know, from a very wealth, well
Speaker 1: to do Philadelphia family and the very distinguished, upstanding citizens.
Speaker 1: And Elisha Cancine is a physician, um, but he's also
Speaker 1: an explorer. Uh. He has rheumatic fever. So I remember
Speaker 1: his father said to him, well, your life may be short,
Speaker 1: but make it really useful. And Elisha, knowing he had
Speaker 1: rheumatic fever UM, which was fairly common in those days, uh,
Speaker 1: did exactly what his father said. Besides being a physician,
Speaker 1: he he had he wanted to learn more about the world,
Speaker 1: and he wanted to help people in other ways. And
Speaker 1: one of the one of the things that intrigued him
Speaker 1: was the the the disappearance of Sir John Franklin, who
Speaker 1: was a British explorer went to the Arctic with a
Speaker 1: crew of men, and they disappeared and nobody could find them.
Speaker 1: And he was determined that that he he could, and
Speaker 1: so he went with his own crew of people on
Speaker 1: the Resolute Uh, and he went to the Arctic had
Speaker 1: already been to the Arctic once and I'm not funded enough,
Speaker 1: even though UM major universities and major funders, including I
Speaker 1: believe UM part of the Smithsonian, the early Smithsonian, had
Speaker 1: helped UH fund that expedition. Well, he came back and
Speaker 1: in UM eighteen fifty two. He I don't know why,
Speaker 1: but I think he was intrigued did everything. He's intrigued
Speaker 1: with ideas. He decides he's going to investigate, and he's
Speaker 1: extremely dubious. Being a physician, he's dubious about the reality
Speaker 1: of this seance. So he goes to a seance with
Speaker 1: Maggie Fox. Both Maggie and Katie were very beautiful young women,
Speaker 1: So that certainly did help UM in terms of people
Speaker 1: being popular and amazed. And you know, this was a
Speaker 1: time when women didn't speak out in public, and we're
Speaker 1: doing that, and so were mediums around the country now
Speaker 1: for the first time. So it's pretty interesting. But anyway, Maggie,
Speaker 1: it's eighteen fifty two, it's Webb's hotel in Philadelphia. She's
Speaker 1: there by herself doing seances, and he appears, and he's dubious,
Speaker 1: but that he comes back again a few more times,
Speaker 1: and of course they have discussions and he becomes intrigued
Speaker 1: and pretty soon they're in love. And this is not
Speaker 1: going to go too well with Leia because Leia wants
Speaker 1: to keep Maggie's sort of a cash cow. UM. She
Speaker 1: certainly doesn't want to getting involved with somebody like him.
Speaker 1: And he, uh, he's, as I say, from this, this
Speaker 1: really elite family. His father is a district judge, his
Speaker 1: mother is an important society matron in UM Philadelphia, and
Speaker 1: they're distinguished couple, UM. And they have a very um,
Speaker 1: politically prominent family in Philadelphia. Nevertheless, he continues to court her,
Speaker 1: and when Maggie goes back to New York, there's all
Speaker 1: kinds of scenes. There are many different episodes that happen, UM,
Speaker 1: and they she does have to go to Washington d
Speaker 1: c UM, where again she's you know, doing seance. Is
Speaker 1: very prominent people, senators and so on. And he wants
Speaker 1: to marry her. And there are bitter fights with UM
Speaker 1: with Leia, and this is going to really I mean,
Speaker 1: and moreover, he wants to make her into his wife. Well,
Speaker 1: she's not going to be a medium, which was considered
Speaker 1: at that time. Again, there's a great deal of skepticism.
Speaker 1: You know, who are these people? I mean, they're like actors.
Speaker 1: They've fraud us. There, actors and actresses weren't considered among
Speaker 1: the highest level, no matter how gifted, in the middle
Speaker 1: of nineteenth century America, and it's great disdain and contempt
Speaker 1: for these people on their their roguish. Um. So this
Speaker 1: is not going to happen. But he has an idea
Speaker 1: that he's going to turn Maggie into quotes a lady,
Speaker 1: and he'll do so by sending her. He'll educate her,
Speaker 1: and she of course had not had much education from
Speaker 1: the time she was about fifteen once they started to
Speaker 1: become popular. So um, he she agrees to marry him,
Speaker 1: and as an enormous breach with Leia and even with
Speaker 1: Katie because Katie is now sort of the main um
Speaker 1: spiritualist along with Leia. Um that Maggie is, you know,
Speaker 1: at Maggie's and madly in love with him, and he
Speaker 1: with her, so he has to He is about to
Speaker 1: take yet another expedition to the Arctic, and um before
Speaker 1: he does, he sets Maggie up in a school. Actually
Speaker 1: it's in it's in a place called Crookville, Pennsylvania, which
Speaker 1: always amuses me. But it's with a woman who has
Speaker 1: is a teacher and it's all actually almost I think
Speaker 1: it's a private situation. And she lives there and the
Speaker 1: woman sort of make sure she isn't doing anything improper,
Speaker 1: and she's keeping her, you know, making her study all
Speaker 1: the time. This is not good for Maggie. And she's
Speaker 1: out in the country. She's bored out of her just
Speaker 1: bored to tears. And um. She returns a few times
Speaker 1: to New York City. Meanwhile, on May eighteen fifty three, Um,
Speaker 1: Alicia Cancine departs with a crew and he's funded by
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian and all kinds of other people. In this fanfare,
Speaker 1: there's a huge salutes, um um. He's not remember that
Speaker 1: he's not, you know, part of the navy, but there's
Speaker 1: navy escorts and so on and newspapers and so on,
Speaker 1: and off he goes to the Arctic again, and Maggie
Speaker 1: is stuck with this woman Mrs Turner and Crookville and
Speaker 1: runs keep coming back to New York and he is
Speaker 1: gone for um he's actually gone for over two years.
Speaker 1: And she waits for him, not happily. She um actually
Speaker 1: sends let us to Greenland several times. A few times
Speaker 1: there's a couple of uncanny things where she senses he's
Speaker 1: in danger even though she isn't hearing from him, and
Speaker 1: indeed he is actually the the the ship gets frozen
Speaker 1: in the ice, which is disastrous for the crew. Um,
Speaker 1: and through all kinds of heroics, he walks hundreds of
Speaker 1: miles and is freezing cold and learns how to reach
Speaker 1: other people and some of the Some of the crew
Speaker 1: now begin to work and live with the Native Americans,
Speaker 1: the Eskimos up there. Um. Some of the stories are
Speaker 1: pretty grim. He's also an artist, which is fascinating because
Speaker 1: of a great book that he does later, which the
Speaker 1: in which there are wonderful drawings of what the Arctic
Speaker 1: looked like. They're pretty ferocious. Anyway, he finally comes back,
Speaker 1: and the odd thing is living in cold, cold air, yes,
Speaker 1: away from the impurities of whatever chimneys, smoke and whatever
Speaker 1: his rheumatic fevers is. Um. You know, he's much better,
Speaker 1: he's stronger, he's he looks great. And then she waits
Speaker 1: for him, and here is about his arrival, of course,
Speaker 1: and she's waiting and waiting and he doesn't come, and
Speaker 1: she becomes hysterical. Finally, two days later he comes to her.
Speaker 1: She basally, and she's at that point in New York
Speaker 1: and living at her mother's home. Her mother's home, by
Speaker 1: the way, is it's Horace Creeley's home in his townhouse,
Speaker 1: but he lives in the country then, and she's actually
Speaker 1: living to her other person that came a family had
Speaker 1: helped a friend who was trying to look after her.
Speaker 1: And he comes to her and she's so happy to
Speaker 1: see him, and she can't understand why he didn't come
Speaker 1: and see her right away, and she's waited two years
Speaker 1: and he says to her, Maggie, I can't marry you.
Speaker 1: And you know, she's given up spiritualism, she's alienated most
Speaker 1: of her family, she has no income. Um, he had
Speaker 1: funded her up until now. Why can't you marry me?
Speaker 1: Because I came to proof of you a rapper which
Speaker 1: is what they called them, Um, and UM, I can't
Speaker 1: marry you. And um. She she of course becomes hysterical. Um,
Speaker 1: she's just not considered good enough for him. And she says, well,
Speaker 1: you know, you say you love me and no matter what,
Speaker 1: and he says as well, UM, yeah, but my family
Speaker 1: says they're going to disown me if I marry you.
Speaker 1: So there are months and months of all kinds of
Speaker 1: um attempts to get back together again and so on
Speaker 1: and break off. And meanwhile Leiah of course and Katie.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of tension with the Fox
Speaker 1: family and even Mrs Fox because this is something they'd
Speaker 1: signed on and spent now quite a few years invested in,
Speaker 1: were known for that. Finally, finally, um In late um in.
Speaker 1: But he's going to know he he's back from the Arctic.
Speaker 1: He's he's a hero. He's a hero. He is. He's
Speaker 1: writing a book about this last trip. He did not,
Speaker 1: by the way, find Sir John Franklin and his crew.
Speaker 1: That is somewhat later than that is found that they
Speaker 1: find the remains of those people, but that's another story.
Speaker 1: Excuse me. So um finally, Uh, he's supposed to go
Speaker 1: to England to be honored by the Royal Society and
Speaker 1: to have reception all Whitehall and all kinds of other
Speaker 1: dignitaries because it's fantastic that he did this, and his
Speaker 1: health is failing, but um, he's going to go anyway.
Speaker 1: And a few nights before he leaves, he suggests to
Speaker 1: her that they get married, but he can't marry her
Speaker 1: in a church because his family disapproves, and they will
Speaker 1: find out there in Philadelphia. But they communication and newspapers
Speaker 1: and everything very quick between Philadelia, railroad very quick between
Speaker 1: Philadelphia and New York. And so finally before Mrs Fox
Speaker 1: and Katie in an unidentified friend, they exchange vows in
Speaker 1: what would be called a Quaker ceremony. Now, if you
Speaker 1: know about the Quakers, they often becomes a legitimate marriage. However,
Speaker 1: there's in this case, there are no civil certificates or registrations.
Speaker 1: This is just quotes the marriage UM. And she is thrilled.
Speaker 1: And several days later he leaves Um for Liverpool, England,
Speaker 1: and he arrives there in October eighteen fifty six. UM.
Speaker 1: And his plan is, now that he's married her, he's
Speaker 1: going to support Maggie with the proceeds from his book.
Speaker 1: As first book was popular, but this one, the Arctic Explorations,
Speaker 1: is going to be even more popular. He's going to
Speaker 1: be able to support Maggie on that money and not
Speaker 1: worry about his family disinheriting him. And there's, you know,
Speaker 1: a way that they have secretly they have an intermediary
Speaker 1: who can get her letters to him in England and
Speaker 1: so on, because his money is still watching very carefully.
Speaker 1: Um it's just really heartbreaking and um so. But what
Speaker 1: happens is he's in England and if you know about
Speaker 1: England and nineteenth century chimney smoke, coal burning fireplaces in
Speaker 1: the air is really terribly polluted in his war since
Speaker 1: his rheumatic fever. He finally becomes so ill he cannot
Speaker 1: go on to do some of the other things he
Speaker 1: was supposed to do, and the doctors, royal physicians hustle
Speaker 1: him off to a warm, sunny climate and that turns
Speaker 1: out to be Cuba, and there are a couple of
Speaker 1: communications where he writes to her or she she doesn't
Speaker 1: get most of his, and he doesn't get any really
Speaker 1: almost any of her letters because the family is always interfering.
Speaker 1: And he gets to Cuba and he's almost dying, and
Speaker 1: a couple of the members somehow get down to Cuba
Speaker 1: for his last days and she reads about she before
Speaker 1: he Before he there, he told her he would leave
Speaker 1: her something in his legacy if anything happened, because he
Speaker 1: knew he was terribly ill in his days were numbered anyway.
Speaker 1: I mean, he always had these scary pneumatic fever text,
Speaker 1: but this one was deadly. This one was fatal, and
Speaker 1: so he dies, but she doesn't learn about it till
Speaker 1: she reads about in the newspaper. So now she's without
Speaker 1: a way to make a living and she's technically a widow.
Speaker 1: Um and uh, they're very unhappy years that fall um,
Speaker 1: and she she still has his letters. She um tries
Speaker 1: to get the family to provide for her through quotes
Speaker 1: his legacy. He left five thousand dollars in a legacy,
Speaker 1: but it's not really pinpointed for her, and she tries
Speaker 1: to prove with the family that she was his wife
Speaker 1: and she should at least received dour rights, and they
Speaker 1: get involved with attorneys and it was a protracted lawsuit
Speaker 1: Um that goes on. Now the lawsuit takes place in
Speaker 1: yes where philadel of course, where he's from and his
Speaker 1: father had been a district court judge. And the family
Speaker 1: keeps making these bargains and if she'll give the letters
Speaker 1: because they don't want anyone to know he was married
Speaker 1: to quotes the rapper um Um, then they'll provide for
Speaker 1: her for a nuity out of this five thou dollars.
Speaker 1: And there's a struggle that goes on for a long
Speaker 1: long time. But ultimately and somebody else, neutral party holds
Speaker 1: the letters. But she gets a little bit of money,
Speaker 1: but it's not enough, and it goes lawsuit goes on,
Speaker 1: and finally the lawsuit just they just um, they just
Speaker 1: don't believe her. The lawsuit is discounted. She's discounted. Um.
Speaker 1: She's made to feel ashamed, um that she's just nothing
Speaker 1: more than an opportunist and a promoter and nobody they
Speaker 1: don't even know if she really married him, and you know,
Speaker 1: she and being another illicit woman here and uh, finally
Speaker 1: she falls into depressions. She also lashes out at them
Speaker 1: in letters and other behavior, and so she becomes known
Speaker 1: as a very unstable, emotionally disturbed person, which doesn't help
Speaker 1: with the lawsuit or her public image. And finally, out
Speaker 1: of desperation, and it's not until May eighteen sixty two
Speaker 1: that she finally co has co authors with his book
Speaker 1: with a prominent social prominent spiritualist, and a journalist. It's
Speaker 1: called The Love Life of Dr Caine, in which she
Speaker 1: publishes the letters and thinks this is going to make
Speaker 1: her money and also justify and and validate your love
Speaker 1: affair with Dr Kane you know, but by then nobody
Speaker 1: gets Look, it's after the Civil War. Um. Actually it's
Speaker 1: right sort of in the minute, sort of in the
Speaker 1: middle of the Civil War, and nobody really is two
Speaker 1: involved with this old spiritual scandal that had gone on beforehand,
Speaker 1: and she's been forgotten. So basically there's really no money, um,
Speaker 1: that's left for her to live on. The family really
Speaker 1: does never come through with the rest of of that
Speaker 1: that settlement. Do we know what the Fox sisters thought
Speaker 1: of the Civil War? I mean, it seems pretty clear
Speaker 1: that this was really what occupied Maggie's attention, But do
Speaker 1: we have any other kind of indication, you know, the records.
Speaker 1: First of all, I should probably have said earlier on
Speaker 1: the records, um on some of this are all you know,
Speaker 1: they're all They're obviously contradictory records everywhere, but they're not
Speaker 1: all that well documented. So we don't have and we
Speaker 1: don't have everything that we wish we did to verify
Speaker 1: as as one would do today. UM. I don't. I
Speaker 1: would assume given their long history with abolition earlier on
Speaker 1: in their lives, they would um, you know, be in
Speaker 1: favor of the the offering of the slaves. Um. But
Speaker 1: I can't tell you that in any definite way, but
Speaker 1: I do know that the Civil War revived still more
Speaker 1: interest in spiritualism because unfortunately, there was so many deaths
Speaker 1: from it that people again sought to communicate with their
Speaker 1: lost loved ones. Mhm. You write so beautifully about Maggie's
Speaker 1: real sense of suffering and loss, and she also starts
Speaker 1: to drink more and more and more at this time.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about um alcoholism for Maggie and for Kate. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let me just say that, let's just back up for
Speaker 1: a minute, and let's just say first of all, her
Speaker 1: father had been an alcoholic and at one point that
Speaker 1: her parents had separated until he reformed. So this alcohol
Speaker 1: and his family and is that we know today that
Speaker 1: happens to be a hereditary tenets for this, but that
Speaker 1: wasn't knowing that. UM. Also, by the eighteen thirties, along
Speaker 1: with all of this reform that was going on, there
Speaker 1: was the beginnings of a real big time temperance movement.
Speaker 1: So alcohol is um frowned upon by many religious groups
Speaker 1: and in the public in general, even though it's extremely common.
Speaker 1: Maggie in the midst of her breakdowns and so on,
Speaker 1: after Alisha's death, on finally actually becomes a Catholic, which
Speaker 1: is interesting, but it was something that Elishah had expressed
Speaker 1: interest in. UM. But you know, the good Catholics do
Speaker 1: not believe that one should be communing with the dead um.
Speaker 1: In any case, she does become a Catholic. She does
Speaker 1: drinking more and more. And by the way, her sister,
Speaker 1: who has become quite a famous and now beautiful, lovely
Speaker 1: young woman um so is drinking. The two of them
Speaker 1: are drinking and and there are various efforts to put
Speaker 1: them on the wagon, so to speak, especially Katie, who,
Speaker 1: as I say, has become extremely prominent as a medium.
Speaker 1: And Maggie is at this point still forced to live
Speaker 1: off her sister and the money her sister's broken from
Speaker 1: Leah to UM that that she's making and her mother
Speaker 1: the money that that you know supports them is also
Speaker 1: used to help support Maggie for quite a few years.
Speaker 1: Mhm uh. And Katie actually goes into the Swedish movement
Speaker 1: Cura Hospital in the sixties, right and and builds this
Speaker 1: relationship with the tailors. Yes she does now the Swedish
Speaker 1: who was one of those many and there were many,
Speaker 1: you know, health reform movements going on at that point,
Speaker 1: in the beginning of the sanitarium um movements, or at
Speaker 1: least the acceleration of them, and water cures and die cures.
Speaker 1: It was very popular in the mid nineteenth century. You see,
Speaker 1: things never changed, do they, um? But anyway, yes, So
Speaker 1: the Swedish movement Cure was run by this doctor George
Speaker 1: Taylor and his wife Sarah and uh in New York City.
Speaker 1: And um, they care for Katie and they try to
Speaker 1: keep her sober and teach her about this. But every time,
Speaker 1: because she's and she also does sciences at the same time.
Speaker 1: And by the way, her science is continuing, her clairvoyance
Speaker 1: and I put that in quotes continues to be extraordinary.
Speaker 1: I mean there are many accounts. Uh. And even with
Speaker 1: the tailor's um, she's able to call up spirits. But
Speaker 1: they lovingly monitor her and take care of her. But
Speaker 1: every time she goes to a party, which they don't
Speaker 1: allow it to do till she seems to be, you know,
Speaker 1: having having removed the addiction. Um. You know, their dinner
Speaker 1: parties and say and whatnot. She's offered wine and and
Speaker 1: she drinks it, and then she's she's back again. So
Speaker 1: it's a sort of a ping pong situation for them,
Speaker 1: but they really adopt her like a daughter and take
Speaker 1: care of her in unloving way, and eventually, eventually, UM
Speaker 1: Katie too, UM, Maggie too. UM. Maggie won't go to
Speaker 1: the to the tailor's at least initially she resists it um,
Speaker 1: and she um slowly is beginning to go back to spiritualism. Leiah,
Speaker 1: of course, Leiah is amazing. Um. Leiah is a very bright, opportunistic, dynamic,
Speaker 1: uh and charismatic if tricky person. And she finally she
Speaker 1: marries a very prominent man um. You know, this is
Speaker 1: a later in life thing. His last name is Underhill,
Speaker 1: and he's wealthy, and he is really trying to help
Speaker 1: Katie and Maggie supports them. He sets them up an
Speaker 1: apartment by themselves in West forty fourth Street and then
Speaker 1: considered a pretty nice area in in Manhattan, and he
Speaker 1: is funding both Katie's rehab and Maggie's support for quite
Speaker 1: a long time, even though there's you know, just really
Speaker 1: ugly feelings and a rift between Leah and her younger sisters.
Speaker 1: And then in the early seventies, h Katie Beeves she
Speaker 1: goes to London. Yes she does. How is she received there?
Speaker 1: She's wildly received, because of course spiritualism is long since
Speaker 1: crossed the channel ever actually, since the eighteen fifties has
Speaker 1: become a sensation. There are spirit circles there. Uh, there are,
Speaker 1: by the way, scientists looking into all of this trying
Speaker 1: to figure it out. Um. And she's very well received
Speaker 1: and very popular. And um, she too married. She marries
Speaker 1: a man named Henry Jenkins who was well to do. Um.
Speaker 1: And they seem to have a happy marriage. Um. They're
Speaker 1: all kinds of things. She has two children, the first
Speaker 1: one Ferdinand, the baby they say is psychic. I mean
Speaker 1: they have all these stories about him being able to
Speaker 1: predict things and quite a bit. And then she has
Speaker 1: a second childhood named Henry Jr. Um. And she's still drinking.
Speaker 1: I think. Um, again, some of this is a little
Speaker 1: fuzzy in terms of the records. She's still drinking, but
Speaker 1: she's it's not terrible and they seem to be happy.
Speaker 1: And then suddenly he dies and then she discovers that
Speaker 1: his legacy is money, as he's originally from Germany. I mean, uh,
Speaker 1: it has to go back there. She's not going to
Speaker 1: get me money for um, and she comes to the
Speaker 1: United States and back to New York with her two children.
Speaker 1: Maggie meanwhile, is become a spiritualist again because it's the
Speaker 1: only way she can make a living, and she is
Speaker 1: good at it. She's become quite popular and she is
Speaker 1: um moving along with that. How does Maggie go from
Speaker 1: re entering spiritualism to the point where she publishes through
Speaker 1: another writer? She works with another writer to publish this confession,
Speaker 1: saying that her seances are fraud M well, the quick on.
Speaker 1: I will be quick on it because there's something else
Speaker 1: I want to say afterwards, but which is important about
Speaker 1: the impact of spiritualism on psychology. But um, very quickly. Um.
Speaker 1: Katie has come back with these children and she's drinking again,
Speaker 1: and the children neglected, or at least they're seized by
Speaker 1: the authorities, and she's accused of being an unfit mother.
Speaker 1: And Maggie Memo has gone to England and is doing
Speaker 1: seances there, and she is extremely upset about Katie, and
Speaker 1: she decides that she has got to confess, and so
Speaker 1: even before she comes back to New York, she um.
Speaker 1: She confesses, she makes she starts to make comments and
Speaker 1: newspaper articles about how she's going to refute spiritualism, and indeed,
Speaker 1: Um she comes back and there's a few interviews with
Speaker 1: some New York newspapers that are hyping what she's going
Speaker 1: to say. And then she and Katie Um do an
Speaker 1: interview together. Uh and finally, um, yeah, she Maggie says,
Speaker 1: I'm going to exposed corruption in the Spiritualist in this
Speaker 1: Spiritualist ulcer. Now, I mean, Spiritualism has not become very florid.
Speaker 1: You know, there are spirit cabinets, there are flowers that
Speaker 1: fall down during things. There are people who reappear this
Speaker 1: ghostly hands. I mean, the Spiritualist now association is very
Speaker 1: large and all over the all over the country and international.
Speaker 1: It has become quite elaborate. Some of them are hoaxes,
Speaker 1: some of them are not all anyway. October twenty one,
Speaker 1: she appears but for three thousand people in the New
Speaker 1: York Academy of Music, and she gets up on the stage.
Speaker 1: She confesses, and she says, and this is how it happens,
Speaker 1: and she and hikes up her skirts and shows how
Speaker 1: she makes these sounds with her feet with her toes. Um.
Speaker 1: And you know, by now there's a national association of
Speaker 1: spiritualists and so on, and they are just outraged. What
Speaker 1: follows UM is in a normal mis controversy. UM that
Speaker 1: goes on for a long time, and then a year
Speaker 1: later because nobody by then, even though she got money
Speaker 1: for this performance, and she's now written a book actually
Speaker 1: co audit this book, UM that uh about spiritualism. But
Speaker 1: then she refutes it. She refutes her her refutation. UM.
Speaker 1: Long story show it. It's it's kind of sad, but
Speaker 1: UM it leaves a lot of questions about her. She's
Speaker 1: towards the end of her life, Katie's is dying and
Speaker 1: does die of alcoholism. Ultimately, Maggie does die two and
Speaker 1: they're all kinds of mysterious knocks and sounds. A person
Speaker 1: who is her nurse, it was not a spiritualist, cannot
Speaker 1: explain them at the time of her death. UM much
Speaker 1: more to say, but we're going to run out of time,
Speaker 1: so I only say that this this. The psychologists have
Speaker 1: become intrigued. This leads into William James Howard, UM, psychologist
Speaker 1: actually in the philosophy department at Harvard, starts investigating some
Speaker 1: clairvoyance and one of them is Lenora piper is never explained.
Speaker 1: You cannot. And so this this starts the whole investigation
Speaker 1: into what we would call parapsychology today, what we would
Speaker 1: call looking into bipolar UM. All kinds of things that
Speaker 1: happened thereafter that become a lot more complex. UM. So
Speaker 1: it's it's a gateway, UM, if you will into UM.
Speaker 1: What we know today is a modern psych modern psycho
Speaker 1: psychology and understandings about psychiatric states and trance states and
Speaker 1: illnesses and and so on. I think that's all pretty
Speaker 1: familiar to people today. But then was brand new investigation
Speaker 1: and lots of investigations, among them the American Society for
Speaker 1: Psychical Research, which was bona fide um scientists, which was
Speaker 1: sort of a carrier from the earlier British Society for
Speaker 1: Psychical Research, and UM. Much much later, the National the
Speaker 1: National Spiritualist Association of Churches with nysak UM was was
Speaker 1: finally recognized UM as a as a legitimate religion and
Speaker 1: used to be centered in upstate New York near cassaday Or.
Speaker 1: It's now called the lily Dale Assembly. And I've had
Speaker 1: the privilege to go there UM and UH can meet
Speaker 1: with some of the real spiritualists. I mean there's a
Speaker 1: whole process that isn't you can just be kind of
Speaker 1: spiritualist into a seance as a whole registration. It's it's
Speaker 1: very strict and fascinating. I'll just say that. One more thing.
Speaker 1: The you know, people have laughed about this, well, people
Speaker 1: like m Artacon and Doyle. Here we are the most
Speaker 1: rational detective. Um writer, he's a spiritualist. Houdini started out
Speaker 1: being believing in it, and then he got to debunk
Speaker 1: it as a musician, as a magician. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: it just kind of goes on. This This leads later
Speaker 1: and much later into investigations by people like William McDougall,
Speaker 1: Harvard psychology professor was the chairman at Duke, his disciple
Speaker 1: Dr Joseph Banks Ryan, who look into esp um. After
Speaker 1: World War Two. Parapsychology labs um morphed into the Parapsychology Association,
Speaker 1: which is now part by the way of the American
Speaker 1: Association for the Advancement of Science. So that's just kind
Speaker 1: of a quick study, um well, quick um run through
Speaker 1: on some of the impacts of of this spiritualism that
Speaker 1: started with these two girls and a little these two
Speaker 1: little girls teenage girls in a little farmhouse in Hydesville,
Speaker 1: New or Eight. Hey, folks, it's Aaron here. I hope
Speaker 1: today's interview helped you deepen your understanding of everything involved
Speaker 1: in the world of spiritualism. But we're not done yet.
Speaker 1: We have more interviews to share with you, so stick
Speaker 1: around after this brief sponsor break to hear a preview
Speaker 1: of next week's interview. Next time on un Obscured. The
Speaker 1: kind of spiritualism that a woman like Victoria Woodhall would
Speaker 1: practice as she traveled around the country was a much
Speaker 1: more basic kind of almost like a advice columnists that
Speaker 1: you might have in a newspaper today. She would set
Speaker 1: up in a hotel and she didn't have seances per se.
Speaker 1: She had one on one encounters with people who would
Speaker 1: come in with maybe physical maladies or problems in their marriage,
Speaker 1: problems with their children's by financial problems, you know, just
Speaker 1: the basic things that a person would go to a
Speaker 1: priest or a therapist or a politician if they so
Speaker 1: dared and described their situation and ask for help. These
Speaker 1: people knew Victoria wasn't equipped to provide them with actual help,
Speaker 1: but in many cases it was enough for just to
Speaker 1: have someone to listen to what they had to say,
Speaker 1: and that in itself was empowering both for them and
Speaker 1: for her. For spiritualists, that kind of conversation, you can
Speaker 1: imagine after a few years, the experience they would build,
Speaker 1: you know, and the kind of advice that they could
Speaker 1: then offer, and how it became very social and very
Speaker 1: political because they knew so many people were suffering from
Speaker 1: the same problem. Unobscured was created by me Aaron Mankey
Speaker 1: and produced by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, and Josh Thane
Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Research and writing for
Speaker 1: this season is all the work of my right hand
Speaker 1: man Carl Nellis and the brilliant Chad Lawson composed the
Speaker 1: brand new soundtrack. Learn more about our contributing historians, source
Speaker 1: material and links to our other shows over at History
Speaker 1: unobscured dot com and until next time, thanks for listening
Speaker 1: Unobscured as a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Monkey.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit i heeart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
Speaker 1: favorite shows.