1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcomed Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minkey. 2 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: Our guest historian today is Nancy Ruben Stewart. She's an 3 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: award winning author and journalist whose biographies dig deep into 4 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: the lives of women who were power players during pivotal 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: moments in American history. Storytelling is her life's work. She's 6 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: the executive director of the Cape Cod Writer's Center in Massachusetts, 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: and she's co president of the Boston chapter of the 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: National Book Association. Researcher at Carl Nellis talked with Nancy 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: about her book on Maggie Fox, The Reluctant Spiritualist, which 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: retells Maggie's life in dramatic detail. About halfway through the conversation, 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 1: a storm rose up around the studio and forced us 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: to make some changes to the recording set up. It 13 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,279 Speaker 1: made us wonder whether Maggie was pleased with the project, 14 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: but I think that you'll want to hear Nancy's side 15 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: of the story anyway, So we begin with Nancy's perspective 16 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: on what it took to be a spiritualist in the 17 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. This is the Unobscured Interview series for season two. 18 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: I'm Aaron Mankey. To be a spiritualist in the nineteenth century, 19 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: I think would take quite a bit of pluck and bravery. Um, 20 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: depends on where you are, because you would either be revered, adored, admired, 21 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: or you would be despised and connected with all the 22 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: evil things in the world and all of the fears 23 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: in religion about communion with the devil. Mm hmm. So 24 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: what were the motivations then, So you say it would 25 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,279 Speaker 1: take pluck and bravery. Uh, And that's that's so clear 26 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: in the lives of the people who were involved. But 27 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: what would motivate someone to to become a medium or 28 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: to go to a seance? Well, to become a medium, 29 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: I think, I mean the movement itself had huge residence 30 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: through society. You have to understand that in the nineteenth century, 31 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: especially in the early years and up to the Civil War, 32 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: there was great religious ferment and change. Um. Started with 33 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: the Second Great Awakening, which was sort of a refutation 34 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: in a way of many of the Enlightenment ideas of 35 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: reason and logic um. And so the Second Great Awakening 36 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: looked at the Romance really evolves from Romanticism English romanticism, 37 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: where um, you know that there's emotion and that human beings, Um, 38 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: there's something magical and mysterious about us. And so there's 39 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: a revival at that point of different and really transformation 40 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: of many different religious ideas, so that you have new 41 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: sex forming, you have revival meetings, you have camp meetings, 42 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: you have charismatic preachers, um, and you have questioning of 43 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,679 Speaker 1: the old calvinistic ideas. That man was you know, imbued 44 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: with original sin and he must suffer and if he 45 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: didn't live a certain kind of a life, he would 46 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: he would burn in hell fire. All of this with 47 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: the changes that are going on around it in nineteenth 48 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: century American industrialism, cities, urbanization and so on, UM made 49 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: people think that, you know, there were there were other 50 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: ways to be a good person and other ways to 51 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: embrace the world. And so brotherhood and abolition and co education, 52 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: all of these themes start to come in. So questions 53 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: about religion, the old religion, and then questions about the 54 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: afterlife prevail and so there's sort of, I say, a 55 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: breakdown of the old, very old values and a look 56 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: at well maybe death, which by the way, was you know, 57 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: the life expectancy was short for children, um, for women 58 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: and for men. I mean in Massachusetts, for instance, the 59 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: life expectancy for a man was fifty For a woman 60 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: this is average was forty two. So death is all 61 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: around us every moment. So what is death? Is it 62 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: to be feared? Are we to burn in hell fire 63 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,799 Speaker 1: for our sins um or? You know? Is death something 64 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: that is benevolent and kind and you know and infects 65 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: all of us and that therefore we shouldn't fear it. 66 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: So given that as a long background, um, so spiritualism 67 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: becomes the idea that one could commune with that the 68 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: human being is not just a body, just a logical, rational, 69 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: you know, set of tissues and cells and whatnot, but 70 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: is rather there's something higher, There's a spirit, and that 71 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 1: spirit cannot be quelled or die with with the body's death. 72 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: And so spiritualism is a communion with the spirits of 73 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: those who have gone, and a happy communion in general, 74 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:17,799 Speaker 1: a positive one. So another kind of big picture question, 75 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: but that reframes the conversation just a bit. Is how 76 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: significant is spiritualism as a chapter in American history, particularly 77 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: for women in American maybe in American women's history. Well 78 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: it's yes, it's extremely significant for women. I'll come back 79 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: to that in a moment. But it's also UM. I 80 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: would say that it is. It is a conduit for 81 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: many things that are today greatly transformed from that because 82 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: it encompasses many different social movements UH, and encompasses early psychology, 83 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: It encompasses early political UM means of UM, you know, 84 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: looking to get rid of slavery. UM. It's it UM. 85 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: It has a whole whole. But besides what we know 86 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: about today, when we think about spiritualism, and I'm talking 87 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:10,679 Speaker 1: now in the vernacular, psychics and crystals and all the 88 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: previous new age that went on in the in then 89 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: UM and so on, all of that really goes back 90 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: to what happened with spiritualism and this whole resurgence of 91 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: this idea of communing with spirits. So it's very important 92 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: movement UM, which we just really don't even think that 93 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: much about today except in certain circles. But as to women, 94 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 1: it's very important because women were very much involved in 95 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: UM in the very early days, with the pro social 96 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: movements of abolition in particular and brotherhood and obviously the 97 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: beginnings of women's rights, where you want to have equal 98 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: rights for everybody, that all souls are equal. I mean 99 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: we get into that whole aspect of religion, which I'll 100 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: come back to later. But UM, where all souls are equal, 101 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: therefore all people in a way, all all people of 102 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: all colors and races and creeds are equal, and so abolition, 103 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,119 Speaker 1: which is which is sort of the driving force. People 104 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: like William Lloyd Garrison, for instance, was a spiritualist. So 105 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: there's a belief on that that spirits can should be 106 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: all spirits should be respected, and therefore so women in 107 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: their early, very early women's rights many of those people 108 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: UM actually sat at at some of the saying very 109 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: early sayance tables. In fact, you know, it's been said 110 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: that some of the early founders, by the way, people 111 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: like Elizabeth Katie stanton Um for instance, there are others 112 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: to them at Clintock's UM and some of the others, 113 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: the very early ones that that those tables that that 114 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: you know, this is all all blended in in the 115 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: in the very early days before the Seneca Falls Convention, 116 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: before we dive into the life of Maggie Fox, the 117 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: people that she knew, the events she was a part of. UM. 118 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask one more question kind of about 119 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: about your work and your perspective, because in addition to 120 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: writing a biography of Maggie Fox, you've also written historical 121 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: biographies of Marjorie Meryweather Post and Merciotis Warren and Isabel 122 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: of Castile. And it made me wonder if there's a 123 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,559 Speaker 1: common thread between the women that you've chosen to write 124 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: these long book length studies about. Yes, there is not 125 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: that it was ever, I guess in the beginning intentional, Um, 126 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: but I mean the first biography, well, I've written other 127 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: journalistic books before. They're on social trends and women. But 128 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: the first biography I wrote was on Isabella of cass Stile, 129 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: Queen Isabella. But you've mentioned the other books, so I 130 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: won't be labor that. But more importantly, I was curious, 131 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: and this is going way back. But really this is 132 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: going back now. You know in in you know earlier 133 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: that what what about women in power? And what happened 134 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: to the women in power? Much earlier than our time? 135 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: I mean right now we're having a great deal about 136 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: this again. Um but um, then, particularly with what's going 137 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: on within Me Too movement, But what happened to women 138 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: who had power? There were women occasionally in history who 139 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: had power and what happened to those who didn't have 140 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: power and why so my biographies all reflect that. That's 141 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: the link MHM. So let's step back into the eighteen forties. 142 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: M And you mentioned that it's this period of religious ferment, uh, 143 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: And some of what we're seeing in the history is 144 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: um some young traditions, some young denominations are starting to 145 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: grow in power and conflict with each other. Methodists, Universalists, 146 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: they're Shaker communities. And you mentioned the revivallest kind of 147 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: practices of camp meetings and circuit preaching and that kind 148 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: of thing. How did this kind of religious atmosphere open 149 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: space for spiritualism in particular, and which traditions in this 150 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: ferment were the strongest influences on Spiritualism's origin. Well, I 151 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: think it's it's again, it's a it's a mix. It 152 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: was what we'd call this eight guest of of the time, 153 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: the flavor of the time. What was sort of in 154 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: the air, what was being discussed, because all of this 155 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: was being discussed and experienced in Upstate New York in particular, 156 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: which by the way, was a very prosperous area because 157 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: the very canal had opened and so all the produce 158 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: and all the furs and all kinds of other things 159 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: that were coming from the North could now come down 160 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: through the canal uh into the Hudson and down to 161 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: New York City. So places like Rochester, New York, which 162 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: is near with the spiritualism, the official start of American 163 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: Spiritualism supposedly begins. UM. And I'll explain that in a minute. 164 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: Supposedly because there's a lot of other threads that feed 165 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: into that. Um so. So it's also Rochester, New York 166 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: is a very sophisticated at that point area. It's a city, 167 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: and it's prospering, and it has filled with ideas and 168 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: people have come in because again it's one of the 169 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: conduits for the early early the Erie Canal. And it's 170 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: it's um, you know, in its own way, quite sophisticated 171 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: in terms of ideas. But as it turns out, also 172 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: it's Rochester's in the middle of what was then in 173 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: western New York. And um, all of the sort of 174 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: the leading new religions UM. The Miller Rights would predict 175 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: at the end of the world, UM, you know, which 176 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: eventually becomes the Seven day Adventists. UM. The Shakers had 177 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: come from England, the Shakers were a branch of the Quakers, 178 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: but they called Shakers because they shook during their religious 179 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: ecstasy UM pronouncements. So the Shakers come from England, but 180 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: they also are settling up state in New York. And 181 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: of course the Mormons, UM the Book of Maroney and 182 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: UM Joseph Smith all start an upstate New York. So 183 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: there's enormous religious ferment. And out of that religious ferment, 184 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: by the way, also comes a skepticism eventually, because there's 185 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: so much of it. In fact, it's been called Western 186 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: New York at that time the burnt out area that 187 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: people were really burnt out with all of these camp meetings, 188 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: in these different religious expressions and meetings and and so on, 189 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: and so there's a sort of a quest for a 190 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: return to the simplicity. And you know, not that spiritualism 191 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: is simple, but the idea of it is that again 192 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: will come back to the all souls and the UM 193 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: pushes underground. Real road is really important in upstate New York. 194 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: Many many women in particular are helping UM, but men 195 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: too are helping slaves escape so they can escape up 196 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: to Canada and be free. So in all of that 197 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: the idea comes out. Now there's a man called Andrew 198 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: Jackson Davis. And Andrew Jackson Davis had based his ideas 199 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: on this idea of communion with the spirits UM with 200 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: an earlier UM European philosopher sweden Borg so sweden borgi 201 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: ism and Andrew Jackson. He then promotes a book UM 202 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: just before the Fox Sisters sort of begin and they 203 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: know nothing about they the girls know nothing about it, 204 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: but he promotes the idea of spirit communication again and 205 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: that one can communicate with spirits. Spirit communication is is ancient. 206 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: It's probably as old as mankind. I mean, it goes 207 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: way back into the Greek philosophers. It's it's in many 208 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: Asian religions. Um. The the Native Americans continued to worship spirits. 209 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: So this is not new, but he's given it kind 210 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: of a new twist. Uh So UM. That is the 211 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: bad ground for how this book, this book, The Divine 212 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: Revelations of Nature UM comes out as a best selling 213 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: book and it sweeps the country UM. And one of 214 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: the people who reads it is none other than than 215 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: the girls older sister Leah fox Fish. But the girls 216 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: don't know anything about this. They begin spiritualism in such 217 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: a humble way um by first trying to play tricks 218 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: on their mother that they're little farmhouse which is in um, 219 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: it's about thirty miles from Rochester, is haunted. I mean 220 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: it begins in such an incredibly folksy homey way um 221 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: and that's part of its appeal. Um. And they are 222 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: they Maggie Fox, the heroine of the main character in 223 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: my book is is fifteen and her sister Katie is twelve. 224 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: I mean, they know nothing about the other part. It's 225 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: just fantastic coincidence that that really ignites the beginning of spiritualism. 226 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: And can you describe in brief what it is that 227 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: they do that kicks this whole thing off? Sure? Well, 228 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: their mother is very superstitious. The girls had come, the 229 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: whole family had come from Rochester. So you have this 230 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: fifteen year old board Maggie Fox, she wants to be 231 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: back in Rochester. She's a teenager obviously, uh. And Katie, 232 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: who will a little sister, will follow her. And their 233 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: mother is so superstitious, and they live in this old 234 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: farmhouse and they start thinking about, well, who lived there before? 235 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: People lived here before, did people die here before? And 236 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: then they decided they're going to play jokes on their mother. 237 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: And so at first they're doing all kinds of things 238 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: somehow or other, and I've by the way, I've tried this, 239 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: it doesn't work for me. They have tried to make 240 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: sounds with their toes, um popping their toes, popping their 241 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: ankles and so on, um, to make these raps, these 242 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: ghostly raps that would occur at night. And then to 243 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: sort of hype this up, I mean, they keep practicing it. 244 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: They have a cousin actually Leah's daughter. Their their sisters, 245 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: their older sisters daughter who's with them at first, and 246 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: then to kind of rev this up, they tie strings 247 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: on apples and they mimic footsteps in the middle of 248 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: the night and scare them mother. Um. So that's really 249 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: how it begins, and she becomes convinced, and then they 250 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: they go too far with it. Then mother becomes so 251 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: convinced that they continue with it. They're they're thrilled by it. 252 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: And then they they say they think there's a spirit 253 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: they can communicate with, and they talk to it, and 254 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: then one will talk to it and the other other 255 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: one will make quietly wraps with her feet, and pretty 256 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: soon Mrs Fox becomes so excited and hysterical that she 257 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: invites in the neighbors. And now they're caught. So they 258 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: continue on with the seances, and of course the church, 259 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: the local method Methodist couple of churches not too happy 260 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 1: with him. But anyway, this becomes a crowd of sensation 261 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: and and people start coming from all over. And as 262 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: a man who I guess would be an investigative reporter 263 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: today who starts writing about them and visiting them, and 264 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: it gets promoted in newspapers in Rochester, and it really 265 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: becomes quite a sensation. And meanwhile Leiah, their oldest sister, 266 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: who is a single mother at this point in the 267 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: piano teacher in Rochester, who has read the Sweating the 268 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson Davis Um book and knows that all these 269 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: ideas that are going on when she's a piano teacher 270 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: to the wealthy in Rochester. She comes to find out 271 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: what is going on with her with this seance. By 272 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: now there are crowds of people, the people lining up 273 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: the whole Fox householders and cannot function this just it's 274 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: they can't control these scances. And every night they do 275 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: these seances. Um and Mrs Fox kind of sort of 276 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: announces them, and the girls are caught in this terrible 277 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: sort of why but they can't. You know, they're going 278 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: to be disgraced. Their parents will be disgraced if they 279 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: they refuted. And Leiah needs money. Um, and she's quite 280 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: a promoter. She's really a very good pr person. Um. 281 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: She brings them to Rochester and she she has them, 282 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: she forces them, she's sort of blackmails them. Actually she's 283 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 1: not the kindest person, and she blackmails them, um that 284 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: she's going to expose them if they don't continue these seances. 285 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: And then she tries to learn how to do these 286 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: movements with their toes. But she's older, she's in her thirties. 287 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: She can't move her feet the way they did. Um, 288 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: so she depends on them for that. And of course 289 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: eventually there's this newspaper hubbub continues. It ends up that 290 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: there it reaches I mean, there are people like Horace 291 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: Greeley in the New York Tribune and others, but he 292 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 1: in particular, who gets wind of it. He sends up 293 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: a reporter too to witness it. They attend all these seances. 294 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of funny stories and strange 295 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: stories one can make the argument that these girls, through Leah, 296 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: would know about the people whose whose families so loved 297 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: ones had died, and so they learned a lot of information. 298 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: And when they sit in a darkened room and hold 299 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 1: hands and and sort of do a religious ceremony, you know, 300 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: blessing everyone with peace and contentment that they're going to 301 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: reach one of these deceased people. Um. And then suddenly 302 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: the raps come um. And then either Leiah interprets them 303 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: as to what it's about and relates intimate details about 304 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 1: this beloved one's lost one's life. People are amazed and 305 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: believe it. Um. But you know, there are many accounts, 306 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: not just then, but later on where you really have 307 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: to wonder whether there's whether they develop a clairvoyance, because 308 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: some of them are inexplicable, and it's threaded throughout the book, 309 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: but there are those other incidents. But anyway, it finally 310 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: gets to be so big, and meanwhile the church is 311 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: of course a horrified they think these girls are, which is, 312 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: they are communing with something they shouldn't be communing with 313 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: the dead. So that there, you know, again, as I 314 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: said earlier, they're they're you know, they're death threats against them, 315 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: and they have to be you know, very careful where 316 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: they go. Um, and some very religious clergy and people 317 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: in Rochester threatened to kill them and run them out 318 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: of town or tar tar and feather them at the least. Anyway, 319 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: they end up in November of forty forty eight, UM, 320 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: they end up on a huge stage um in Corinthian Hall, 321 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: which is a grand hall in Rochester at that time, 322 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: and they give a seance, but other reps are just 323 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: very vaguely heard, and it's obviously a rather large auditorium. 324 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: The presses there, one of Horace Greeley's reporters there from 325 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: New York. There are other reporters there and um from 326 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: the Rochester papers and elsewhere and upstate New York and UM. 327 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: So there's outcry, are they frauds? Are they hoaxes? What 328 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: what's happening? And there's a committee appointed to examine the girls, 329 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: particularly Leiah and Maggie at this point, to find out 330 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: what they're making these sons with their body that they 331 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: must be. So these these examinations go on for four 332 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 1: or five days, um, several of them. Because it's an 333 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: age of modesty for women with the women, um, you know, 334 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: having them be basically underressed down to their underwear and 335 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: examining them. And and there's all kinds of prominent people 336 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: who are now believers, um, everything from you know, city 337 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: officials to judges and even senators because they have had 338 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: the opportunity to be in a seance and communicate with 339 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: a loved one. And most of the time the messages, 340 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: by the way, are reassuring, um to the people who 341 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: are still grieving. So that that goes on for five 342 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 1: days with these examinations, but nothing is is determined, and 343 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: the publicity on this spreads is they continue to do 344 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: these seances, which by the way, layers pocketing most of 345 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: the money, um, which Maggie and one of her books 346 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: um later on the missing link to spiritualism um you 347 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: know later much later in life bitterly describes. But anyway, 348 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:39,959 Speaker 1: it grows, the movement grows, and within a year or two, um, 349 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: I mean they're they're nationally known. There are child mediums 350 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: springing up in other places. There are spirit circles that 351 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: are now in seven or eight cities across America. Um, 352 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: you know, from Philadelphia to San Francisco. People become believes 353 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: there are new mediums. I mean the idea for a 354 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: medium was you had a pretty untainted spirit that you 355 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 1: could commune with yourself. You were a living person who 356 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: had you know, you were innocent, you were able, and 357 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: you were able to receive these these perceptions in these messages. 358 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: So there are many many child mediums, and then of 359 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: course in particular women mediums because they were so much 360 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 1: more protected from quotes the real hustle bustle male world 361 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century. And eventually they get to New 362 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 1: York where Horace Greeley again um is kind of watching 363 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: them and promoting them and being kind to them and 364 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: meeting them, and they're staying in you know, wonderful hotels, 365 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: their Broadway Broadway doll song written about them. There were 366 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: dolls that have made replica. You know. It was became 367 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: a rage all over um. So now you have these 368 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: country girls who were being brought up into this, this 369 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: entire venue h this this whole way of thinking about 370 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: people and learning about them and trying to interpret what 371 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: what the what these spirits are saying when there are 372 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: these seances. It's an incredible movement. Um. By by eighteen 373 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 1: fifty four, there are fifteen thousand petitions signed signed in 374 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: the petition by some very prominent senators and judges and 375 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: so on, and it's brought to Congress because now it's 376 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: become this outrage. I mean, the religions are all up 377 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: in the air about the standard religions. But you know, 378 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: there's a funny discussion that goes on about how to 379 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: how to do this in Congress, but ultimately it's it's 380 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: it's tabled for the moment um, but it I just 381 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: want to mention that because it just shows you the 382 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: enormity of the popularity of it, and UM, the the 383 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: fantastic publicity that surrounded this early movement, and you mentioned 384 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: that some of that publicity is is positive and they 385 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: make friends among the press like Horse Greeley. At the 386 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: same time, some of the doubts, right that started at 387 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: the very beginning, like you mentioned, continue on after that 388 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: first investigation in UM, there's also an eighteen fifty one 389 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: investigation where they bring in Buffalo University faculty and and 390 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 1: they have a relative, Mrs Culver, who publishes an account 391 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: saying that Maggie admitted to her how they made the 392 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: raps and the fact that they were staged and that 393 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: kind of thing. What effect did the these kind of 394 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: personal pushbacks are the constant scrutiny have on Maggie box 395 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: Say in particular, Well, you know, it's interesting. I mean, 396 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: she doesn't she at least in the beginning, does not 397 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: love this. She's kind of roped into it. She's kind 398 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: of caught in it. You know, she's one of the 399 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: she's really more in the beginning, more the one who 400 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: does it more than Katie. Katie learns. Katie seems to 401 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: become quite clairvoyant. Um. But Maggie at times has gone 402 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: on strike with her sister Leia because she resents the 403 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: fact that Laya is so overbearing and grasping, and she 404 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: seems to keep all the money to herself. And while 405 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: they live well in there, you know they probably have bodyguards, um, 406 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: dressed well and their celebrities. Um, she's just not completely 407 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: pleased with it. You know. I just want to say, 408 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: there are there are distinguished people who all sort of 409 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: weigh in on this. Besides doctors and senators in Congress 410 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 1: and so, and they're distinguished writers and thinkers who also 411 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: weigh in on this. People like Ralph Waldo Emerson, who, 412 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: while transcendentalism is is his his pet philosophy, transcendentalism, meaning 413 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: that this world is only a shadow what was this 414 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 1: physical world is only a shadow of a larger spiritual one. 415 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: I mean again, this is part of the whole, the 416 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: whole aura of the time. But but you know, he 417 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,719 Speaker 1: becomes disgusted, and he finally he calls it a rat revelation, 418 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: that the gospel that comes in by raps in the wall, 419 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: uh and bumps in the table drawer. And James Russell Lowett, 420 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: the poet, condemns it. And Henry David throw says and 421 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: he thinks people who believed it were idiots inspired by 422 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: the crackling of a restless board. Um. And yet there 423 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 1: are famous professors like like um uh professor emeritus of 424 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: University Pennsylvania, chemist Robert Harry becomes a believer. Um so. 425 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: But anyway, so Maggie at times um has rebelled and 426 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: this has not worked too well, and she's again caught 427 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,239 Speaker 1: up in this this whole kind of a whirlwind of 428 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: publicity and fame and celebrityhood and attention and so on. 429 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: But she's she and I I'll call it the reluctant 430 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: spiritual because she's again she's kind of she's kind of 431 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: forced into keep keep doing this, and she has she 432 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,479 Speaker 1: has at least a sense activity to people and maybe 433 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: some clairvoyance. It would seem that way from some of 434 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: the later reports Um in my book, I I really 435 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: don't judge who I tell the story because I'm a storyteller, 436 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: but I don't judge whether I mean there are clairvoyance, 437 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: there are people who work for the police department today, 438 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: and and other things that have happened that there are 439 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: occasionally people who you know, who seem to be able 440 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: to predict or understand UM something that isn't obvious to 441 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: the rest of us. So Maggie has become by now 442 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: she's she's an eighteen nineteen and she's Leah wants to 443 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: spread out the people who do the science, as Katie 444 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: is already fifteen or sixteen. So she's got Katie in 445 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: New York to work with her, and they do tours 446 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: really all over by railroad. But Katie UM, and Katie 447 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: seems is now a beautiful young woman. Also they're both 448 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: very good looking, which certainly helped Um have both men 449 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: and women admire them on the in the seance circle 450 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: and be close to these celebrities. But Maggie finally goes 451 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: to the Web Hotel in Philadelphia and she's giving she 452 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: gives seances there. I'm going to stop there because it 453 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: starts her her whole other story, right, and I want 454 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: to actually I want to jump to that in just 455 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: a minute. But there's an episode, there's a there's a 456 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: kind of dramatic episode in Troy, New York as well 457 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: for Maggie. Um, right before she gets to Philadelphia. Do 458 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: you remember the details of that. She is remarkable, is 459 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: all I can say. It's it's it's very strange. Um. 460 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: But again, there are terrible death threats that are made 461 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: for them, towards them, and and so so it is 462 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: with with Maggie, and she just doesn't want to go on. 463 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: I mean, she's she's kind of a nervous character where 464 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: you can understand why she's kind of nervous and she 465 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: just doesn't want to go on. But she's again she's 466 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: caught up in this forced to go on. It's it's 467 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: too late to refute it. Too many now thousands of 468 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: people and too many things that have happened, and so 469 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: she must continue. Well, then let's jump to Philadelphia and 470 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: that other part of her life that opens up when 471 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: she meets Elisha. Yeah, Elishah Cancaine was a from an 472 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: elite Philadelphia family. His father was a judge UM, and mother, 473 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: you know, was you know, from a very wealth, well 474 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: to do Philadelphia family and the very distinguished, upstanding citizens. 475 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: And Elisha Cancine is a physician, um, but he's also 476 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: an explorer. Uh. He has rheumatic fever. So I remember 477 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: his father said to him, well, your life may be short, 478 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: but make it really useful. And Elisha, knowing he had 479 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: rheumatic fever UM, which was fairly common in those days, uh, 480 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: did exactly what his father said. Besides being a physician, 481 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: he he had he wanted to learn more about the world, 482 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: and he wanted to help people in other ways. And 483 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: one of the one of the things that intrigued him 484 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: was the the the disappearance of Sir John Franklin, who 485 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: was a British explorer went to the Arctic with a 486 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: crew of men, and they disappeared and nobody could find them. 487 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: And he was determined that that he he could, and 488 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: so he went with his own crew of people on 489 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: the Resolute Uh, and he went to the Arctic had 490 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: already been to the Arctic once and I'm not funded enough, 491 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: even though UM major universities and major funders, including I 492 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: believe UM part of the Smithsonian, the early Smithsonian, had 493 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: helped UH fund that expedition. Well, he came back and 494 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: in UM eighteen fifty two. He I don't know why, 495 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: but I think he was intrigued did everything. He's intrigued 496 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: with ideas. He decides he's going to investigate, and he's 497 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: extremely dubious. Being a physician, he's dubious about the reality 498 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: of this seance. So he goes to a seance with 499 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: Maggie Fox. Both Maggie and Katie were very beautiful young women, 500 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: So that certainly did help UM in terms of people 501 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: being popular and amazed. And you know, this was a 502 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: time when women didn't speak out in public, and we're 503 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: doing that, and so were mediums around the country now 504 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: for the first time. So it's pretty interesting. But anyway, Maggie, 505 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: it's eighteen fifty two, it's Webb's hotel in Philadelphia. She's 506 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: there by herself doing seances, and he appears, and he's dubious, 507 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: but that he comes back again a few more times, 508 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: and of course they have discussions and he becomes intrigued 509 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: and pretty soon they're in love. And this is not 510 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: going to go too well with Leia because Leia wants 511 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: to keep Maggie's sort of a cash cow. UM. She 512 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: certainly doesn't want to getting involved with somebody like him. 513 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: And he, uh, he's, as I say, from this, this 514 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: really elite family. His father is a district judge, his 515 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: mother is an important society matron in UM Philadelphia, and 516 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: they're distinguished couple, UM. And they have a very um, 517 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: politically prominent family in Philadelphia. Nevertheless, he continues to court her, 518 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: and when Maggie goes back to New York, there's all 519 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: kinds of scenes. There are many different episodes that happen, UM, 520 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: and they she does have to go to Washington d 521 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: c UM, where again she's you know, doing seance. Is 522 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: very prominent people, senators and so on. And he wants 523 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: to marry her. And there are bitter fights with UM 524 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: with Leia, and this is going to really I mean, 525 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: and moreover, he wants to make her into his wife. Well, 526 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: she's not going to be a medium, which was considered 527 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: at that time. Again, there's a great deal of skepticism. 528 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: You know, who are these people? I mean, they're like actors. 529 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: They've fraud us. There, actors and actresses weren't considered among 530 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: the highest level, no matter how gifted, in the middle 531 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: of nineteenth century America, and it's great disdain and contempt 532 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 1: for these people on their their roguish. Um. So this 533 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: is not going to happen. But he has an idea 534 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 1: that he's going to turn Maggie into quotes a lady, 535 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: and he'll do so by sending her. He'll educate her, 536 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 1: and she of course had not had much education from 537 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: the time she was about fifteen once they started to 538 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: become popular. So um, he she agrees to marry him, 539 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: and as an enormous breach with Leia and even with 540 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,439 Speaker 1: Katie because Katie is now sort of the main um 541 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: spiritualist along with Leia. Um that Maggie is, you know, 542 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: at Maggie's and madly in love with him, and he 543 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: with her, so he has to He is about to 544 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: take yet another expedition to the Arctic, and um before 545 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: he does, he sets Maggie up in a school. Actually 546 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: it's in it's in a place called Crookville, Pennsylvania, which 547 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: always amuses me. But it's with a woman who has 548 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: is a teacher and it's all actually almost I think 549 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: it's a private situation. And she lives there and the 550 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: woman sort of make sure she isn't doing anything improper, 551 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: and she's keeping her, you know, making her study all 552 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: the time. This is not good for Maggie. And she's 553 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: out in the country. She's bored out of her just 554 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: bored to tears. And um. She returns a few times 555 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: to New York City. Meanwhile, on May eighteen fifty three, Um, 556 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: Alicia Cancine departs with a crew and he's funded by 557 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian and all kinds of other people. In this fanfare, 558 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: there's a huge salutes, um um. He's not remember that 559 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,240 Speaker 1: he's not, you know, part of the navy, but there's 560 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: navy escorts and so on and newspapers and so on, 561 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: and off he goes to the Arctic again, and Maggie 562 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: is stuck with this woman Mrs Turner and Crookville and 563 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 1: runs keep coming back to New York and he is 564 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: gone for um he's actually gone for over two years. 565 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: And she waits for him, not happily. She um actually 566 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 1: sends let us to Greenland several times. A few times 567 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: there's a couple of uncanny things where she senses he's 568 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: in danger even though she isn't hearing from him, and 569 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 1: indeed he is actually the the the ship gets frozen 570 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: in the ice, which is disastrous for the crew. Um, 571 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: and through all kinds of heroics, he walks hundreds of 572 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 1: miles and is freezing cold and learns how to reach 573 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: other people and some of the Some of the crew 574 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: now begin to work and live with the Native Americans, 575 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: the Eskimos up there. Um. Some of the stories are 576 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 1: pretty grim. He's also an artist, which is fascinating because 577 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: of a great book that he does later, which the 578 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,720 Speaker 1: in which there are wonderful drawings of what the Arctic 579 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,919 Speaker 1: looked like. They're pretty ferocious. Anyway, he finally comes back, 580 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: and the odd thing is living in cold, cold air, yes, 581 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: away from the impurities of whatever chimneys, smoke and whatever 582 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: his rheumatic fevers is. Um. You know, he's much better, 583 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: he's stronger, he's he looks great. And then she waits 584 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 1: for him, and here is about his arrival, of course, 585 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,280 Speaker 1: and she's waiting and waiting and he doesn't come, and 586 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: she becomes hysterical. Finally, two days later he comes to her. 587 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: She basally, and she's at that point in New York 588 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: and living at her mother's home. Her mother's home, by 589 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: the way, is it's Horace Creeley's home in his townhouse, 590 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: but he lives in the country then, and she's actually 591 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: living to her other person that came a family had 592 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: helped a friend who was trying to look after her. 593 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 1: And he comes to her and she's so happy to 594 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: see him, and she can't understand why he didn't come 595 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 1: and see her right away, and she's waited two years 596 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: and he says to her, Maggie, I can't marry you. 597 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: And you know, she's given up spiritualism, she's alienated most 598 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: of her family, she has no income. Um, he had 599 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: funded her up until now. Why can't you marry me? 600 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: Because I came to proof of you a rapper which 601 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: is what they called them, Um, and UM, I can't 602 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: marry you. And um. She she of course becomes hysterical. Um, 603 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 1: she's just not considered good enough for him. And she says, well, 604 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: you know, you say you love me and no matter what, 605 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 1: and he says as well, UM, yeah, but my family 606 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: says they're going to disown me if I marry you. 607 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: So there are months and months of all kinds of 608 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,919 Speaker 1: um attempts to get back together again and so on 609 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 1: and break off. And meanwhile Leiah of course and Katie. 610 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of tension with the Fox 611 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,439 Speaker 1: family and even Mrs Fox because this is something they'd 612 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: signed on and spent now quite a few years invested in, 613 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: were known for that. Finally, finally, um In late um in. 614 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: But he's going to know he he's back from the Arctic. 615 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,919 Speaker 1: He's he's a hero. He's a hero. He is. He's 616 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: writing a book about this last trip. He did not, 617 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: by the way, find Sir John Franklin and his crew. 618 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: That is somewhat later than that is found that they 619 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: find the remains of those people, but that's another story. 620 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: Excuse me. So um finally, Uh, he's supposed to go 621 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: to England to be honored by the Royal Society and 622 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: to have reception all Whitehall and all kinds of other 623 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: dignitaries because it's fantastic that he did this, and his 624 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: health is failing, but um, he's going to go anyway. 625 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: And a few nights before he leaves, he suggests to 626 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: her that they get married, but he can't marry her 627 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: in a church because his family disapproves, and they will 628 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: find out there in Philadelphia. But they communication and newspapers 629 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,719 Speaker 1: and everything very quick between Philadelia, railroad very quick between 630 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:58,280 Speaker 1: Philadelphia and New York. And so finally before Mrs Fox 631 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 1: and Katie in an unidentified friend, they exchange vows in 632 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: what would be called a Quaker ceremony. Now, if you 633 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: know about the Quakers, they often becomes a legitimate marriage. However, 634 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 1: there's in this case, there are no civil certificates or registrations. 635 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: This is just quotes the marriage UM. And she is thrilled. 636 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 1: And several days later he leaves Um for Liverpool, England, 637 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: and he arrives there in October eighteen fifty six. UM. 638 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 1: And his plan is, now that he's married her, he's 639 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: going to support Maggie with the proceeds from his book. 640 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: As first book was popular, but this one, the Arctic Explorations, 641 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 1: is going to be even more popular. He's going to 642 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: be able to support Maggie on that money and not 643 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: worry about his family disinheriting him. And there's, you know, 644 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,760 Speaker 1: a way that they have secretly they have an intermediary 645 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: who can get her letters to him in England and 646 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 1: so on, because his money is still watching very carefully. 647 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 1: Um it's just really heartbreaking and um so. But what 648 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 1: happens is he's in England and if you know about 649 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: England and nineteenth century chimney smoke, coal burning fireplaces in 650 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 1: the air is really terribly polluted in his war since 651 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: his rheumatic fever. He finally becomes so ill he cannot 652 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: go on to do some of the other things he 653 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,240 Speaker 1: was supposed to do, and the doctors, royal physicians hustle 654 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 1: him off to a warm, sunny climate and that turns 655 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 1: out to be Cuba, and there are a couple of 656 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 1: communications where he writes to her or she she doesn't 657 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: get most of his, and he doesn't get any really 658 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: almost any of her letters because the family is always interfering. 659 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: And he gets to Cuba and he's almost dying, and 660 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,360 Speaker 1: a couple of the members somehow get down to Cuba 661 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: for his last days and she reads about she before 662 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: he Before he there, he told her he would leave 663 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: her something in his legacy if anything happened, because he 664 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: knew he was terribly ill in his days were numbered anyway. 665 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: I mean, he always had these scary pneumatic fever text, 666 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: but this one was deadly. This one was fatal, and 667 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 1: so he dies, but she doesn't learn about it till 668 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,839 Speaker 1: she reads about in the newspaper. So now she's without 669 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: a way to make a living and she's technically a widow. 670 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,839 Speaker 1: Um and uh, they're very unhappy years that fall um, 671 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:36,280 Speaker 1: and she she still has his letters. She um tries 672 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: to get the family to provide for her through quotes 673 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: his legacy. He left five thousand dollars in a legacy, 674 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,360 Speaker 1: but it's not really pinpointed for her, and she tries 675 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: to prove with the family that she was his wife 676 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 1: and she should at least received dour rights, and they 677 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 1: get involved with attorneys and it was a protracted lawsuit 678 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: Um that goes on. Now the lawsuit takes place in 679 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:03,200 Speaker 1: yes where philadel of course, where he's from and his 680 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: father had been a district court judge. And the family 681 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,160 Speaker 1: keeps making these bargains and if she'll give the letters 682 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 1: because they don't want anyone to know he was married 683 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: to quotes the rapper um Um, then they'll provide for 684 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,800 Speaker 1: her for a nuity out of this five thou dollars. 685 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,919 Speaker 1: And there's a struggle that goes on for a long 686 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: long time. But ultimately and somebody else, neutral party holds 687 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: the letters. But she gets a little bit of money, 688 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 1: but it's not enough, and it goes lawsuit goes on, 689 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: and finally the lawsuit just they just um, they just 690 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,399 Speaker 1: don't believe her. The lawsuit is discounted. She's discounted. Um. 691 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: She's made to feel ashamed, um that she's just nothing 692 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 1: more than an opportunist and a promoter and nobody they 693 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,360 Speaker 1: don't even know if she really married him, and you know, 694 00:44:55,560 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: she and being another illicit woman here and uh, finally 695 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 1: she falls into depressions. She also lashes out at them 696 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: in letters and other behavior, and so she becomes known 697 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:14,839 Speaker 1: as a very unstable, emotionally disturbed person, which doesn't help 698 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:20,440 Speaker 1: with the lawsuit or her public image. And finally, out 699 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:25,400 Speaker 1: of desperation, and it's not until May eighteen sixty two 700 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 1: that she finally co has co authors with his book 701 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 1: with a prominent social prominent spiritualist, and a journalist. It's 702 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:37,960 Speaker 1: called The Love Life of Dr Caine, in which she 703 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: publishes the letters and thinks this is going to make 704 00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:46,359 Speaker 1: her money and also justify and and validate your love 705 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: affair with Dr Kane you know, but by then nobody 706 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 1: gets Look, it's after the Civil War. Um. Actually it's 707 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: right sort of in the minute, sort of in the 708 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,319 Speaker 1: middle of the Civil War, and nobody really is two 709 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,959 Speaker 1: involved with this old spiritual scandal that had gone on beforehand, 710 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 1: and she's been forgotten. So basically there's really no money, um, 711 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,919 Speaker 1: that's left for her to live on. The family really 712 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: does never come through with the rest of of that 713 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:21,000 Speaker 1: that settlement. Do we know what the Fox sisters thought 714 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,719 Speaker 1: of the Civil War? I mean, it seems pretty clear 715 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,400 Speaker 1: that this was really what occupied Maggie's attention, But do 716 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: we have any other kind of indication, you know, the records. 717 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,360 Speaker 1: First of all, I should probably have said earlier on 718 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: the records, um on some of this are all you know, 719 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 1: they're all They're obviously contradictory records everywhere, but they're not 720 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: all that well documented. So we don't have and we 721 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: don't have everything that we wish we did to verify 722 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 1: as as one would do today. UM. I don't. I 723 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: would assume given their long history with abolition earlier on 724 00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,120 Speaker 1: in their lives, they would um, you know, be in 725 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:05,319 Speaker 1: favor of the the offering of the slaves. Um. But 726 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 1: I can't tell you that in any definite way, but 727 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 1: I do know that the Civil War revived still more 728 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: interest in spiritualism because unfortunately, there was so many deaths 729 00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:21,399 Speaker 1: from it that people again sought to communicate with their 730 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:27,279 Speaker 1: lost loved ones. Mhm. You write so beautifully about Maggie's 731 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:32,760 Speaker 1: real sense of suffering and loss, and she also starts 732 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,720 Speaker 1: to drink more and more and more at this time. 733 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:41,919 Speaker 1: Can you talk about um alcoholism for Maggie and for Kate. Yeah, 734 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 1: let me just say that, let's just back up for 735 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,799 Speaker 1: a minute, and let's just say first of all, her 736 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,800 Speaker 1: father had been an alcoholic and at one point that 737 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,680 Speaker 1: her parents had separated until he reformed. So this alcohol 738 00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 1: and his family and is that we know today that 739 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,040 Speaker 1: happens to be a hereditary tenets for this, but that 740 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 1: wasn't knowing that. UM. Also, by the eighteen thirties, along 741 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,080 Speaker 1: with all of this reform that was going on, there 742 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 1: was the beginnings of a real big time temperance movement. 743 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,759 Speaker 1: So alcohol is um frowned upon by many religious groups 744 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:22,440 Speaker 1: and in the public in general, even though it's extremely common. 745 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 1: Maggie in the midst of her breakdowns and so on, 746 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:34,080 Speaker 1: after Alisha's death, on finally actually becomes a Catholic, which 747 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,000 Speaker 1: is interesting, but it was something that Elishah had expressed 748 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,680 Speaker 1: interest in. UM. But you know, the good Catholics do 749 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: not believe that one should be communing with the dead um. 750 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: In any case, she does become a Catholic. She does 751 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,080 Speaker 1: drinking more and more. And by the way, her sister, 752 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: who has become quite a famous and now beautiful, lovely 753 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: young woman um so is drinking. The two of them 754 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 1: are drinking and and there are various efforts to put 755 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: them on the wagon, so to speak, especially Katie, who, 756 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,400 Speaker 1: as I say, has become extremely prominent as a medium. 757 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,560 Speaker 1: And Maggie is at this point still forced to live 758 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,839 Speaker 1: off her sister and the money her sister's broken from 759 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:25,080 Speaker 1: Leah to UM that that she's making and her mother 760 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: the money that that you know supports them is also 761 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: used to help support Maggie for quite a few years. 762 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 1: Mhm uh. And Katie actually goes into the Swedish movement 763 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 1: Cura Hospital in the sixties, right and and builds this 764 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,760 Speaker 1: relationship with the tailors. Yes she does now the Swedish 765 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,680 Speaker 1: who was one of those many and there were many, 766 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,520 Speaker 1: you know, health reform movements going on at that point, 767 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,840 Speaker 1: in the beginning of the sanitarium um movements, or at 768 00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:00,400 Speaker 1: least the acceleration of them, and water cures and die cures. 769 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: It was very popular in the mid nineteenth century. You see, 770 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:08,000 Speaker 1: things never changed, do they, um? But anyway, yes, So 771 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:14,280 Speaker 1: the Swedish movement Cure was run by this doctor George 772 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,360 Speaker 1: Taylor and his wife Sarah and uh in New York City. 773 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:23,200 Speaker 1: And um, they care for Katie and they try to 774 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,920 Speaker 1: keep her sober and teach her about this. But every time, 775 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,520 Speaker 1: because she's and she also does sciences at the same time. 776 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,600 Speaker 1: And by the way, her science is continuing, her clairvoyance 777 00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,480 Speaker 1: and I put that in quotes continues to be extraordinary. 778 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,719 Speaker 1: I mean there are many accounts. Uh. And even with 779 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,759 Speaker 1: the tailor's um, she's able to call up spirits. But 780 00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:46,400 Speaker 1: they lovingly monitor her and take care of her. But 781 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,960 Speaker 1: every time she goes to a party, which they don't 782 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,799 Speaker 1: allow it to do till she seems to be, you know, 783 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:58,840 Speaker 1: having having removed the addiction. Um. You know, their dinner 784 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:03,759 Speaker 1: parties and say and whatnot. She's offered wine and and 785 00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,359 Speaker 1: she drinks it, and then she's she's back again. So 786 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,799 Speaker 1: it's a sort of a ping pong situation for them, 787 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:15,080 Speaker 1: but they really adopt her like a daughter and take 788 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:20,040 Speaker 1: care of her in unloving way, and eventually, eventually, UM 789 00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:27,960 Speaker 1: Katie too, UM, Maggie too. UM. Maggie won't go to 790 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:36,160 Speaker 1: the to the tailor's at least initially she resists it um, 791 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:43,080 Speaker 1: and she um slowly is beginning to go back to spiritualism. Leiah, 792 00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:52,200 Speaker 1: of course, Leiah is amazing. Um. Leiah is a very bright, opportunistic, dynamic, 793 00:51:53,080 --> 00:52:00,279 Speaker 1: uh and charismatic if tricky person. And she finally she 794 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:05,600 Speaker 1: marries a very prominent man um. You know, this is 795 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,360 Speaker 1: a later in life thing. His last name is Underhill, 796 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:14,319 Speaker 1: and he's wealthy, and he is really trying to help 797 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,640 Speaker 1: Katie and Maggie supports them. He sets them up an 798 00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:21,399 Speaker 1: apartment by themselves in West forty fourth Street and then 799 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,759 Speaker 1: considered a pretty nice area in in Manhattan, and he 800 00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,719 Speaker 1: is funding both Katie's rehab and Maggie's support for quite 801 00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,880 Speaker 1: a long time, even though there's you know, just really 802 00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:44,000 Speaker 1: ugly feelings and a rift between Leah and her younger sisters. 803 00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:47,719 Speaker 1: And then in the early seventies, h Katie Beeves she 804 00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,719 Speaker 1: goes to London. Yes she does. How is she received there? 805 00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,799 Speaker 1: She's wildly received, because of course spiritualism is long since 806 00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,000 Speaker 1: crossed the channel ever actually, since the eighteen fifties has 807 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:03,120 Speaker 1: become a sensation. There are spirit circles there. Uh, there are, 808 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:07,640 Speaker 1: by the way, scientists looking into all of this trying 809 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,800 Speaker 1: to figure it out. Um. And she's very well received 810 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:16,280 Speaker 1: and very popular. And um, she too married. She marries 811 00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 1: a man named Henry Jenkins who was well to do. Um. 812 00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:25,040 Speaker 1: And they seem to have a happy marriage. Um. They're 813 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,360 Speaker 1: all kinds of things. She has two children, the first 814 00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,920 Speaker 1: one Ferdinand, the baby they say is psychic. I mean 815 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,279 Speaker 1: they have all these stories about him being able to 816 00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,600 Speaker 1: predict things and quite a bit. And then she has 817 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:41,800 Speaker 1: a second childhood named Henry Jr. Um. And she's still drinking. 818 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,839 Speaker 1: I think. Um, again, some of this is a little 819 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,880 Speaker 1: fuzzy in terms of the records. She's still drinking, but 820 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,560 Speaker 1: she's it's not terrible and they seem to be happy. 821 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:57,759 Speaker 1: And then suddenly he dies and then she discovers that 822 00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:04,640 Speaker 1: his legacy is money, as he's originally from Germany. I mean, uh, 823 00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,040 Speaker 1: it has to go back there. She's not going to 824 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:12,200 Speaker 1: get me money for um, and she comes to the 825 00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,120 Speaker 1: United States and back to New York with her two children. 826 00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:21,520 Speaker 1: Maggie meanwhile, is become a spiritualist again because it's the 827 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,520 Speaker 1: only way she can make a living, and she is 828 00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:28,000 Speaker 1: good at it. She's become quite popular and she is 829 00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:33,120 Speaker 1: um moving along with that. How does Maggie go from 830 00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:39,719 Speaker 1: re entering spiritualism to the point where she publishes through 831 00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,160 Speaker 1: another writer? She works with another writer to publish this confession, 832 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:49,680 Speaker 1: saying that her seances are fraud M well, the quick on. 833 00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:51,520 Speaker 1: I will be quick on it because there's something else 834 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,120 Speaker 1: I want to say afterwards, but which is important about 835 00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:59,759 Speaker 1: the impact of spiritualism on psychology. But um, very quickly. Um. 836 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,280 Speaker 1: Katie has come back with these children and she's drinking again, 837 00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,320 Speaker 1: and the children neglected, or at least they're seized by 838 00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,719 Speaker 1: the authorities, and she's accused of being an unfit mother. 839 00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,919 Speaker 1: And Maggie Memo has gone to England and is doing 840 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:17,920 Speaker 1: seances there, and she is extremely upset about Katie, and 841 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:23,440 Speaker 1: she decides that she has got to confess, and so 842 00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:30,240 Speaker 1: even before she comes back to New York, she um. 843 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,880 Speaker 1: She confesses, she makes she starts to make comments and 844 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:40,160 Speaker 1: newspaper articles about how she's going to refute spiritualism, and indeed, 845 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,719 Speaker 1: Um she comes back and there's a few interviews with 846 00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:49,120 Speaker 1: some New York newspapers that are hyping what she's going 847 00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,200 Speaker 1: to say. And then she and Katie Um do an 848 00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:59,560 Speaker 1: interview together. Uh and finally, um, yeah, she Maggie says, 849 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:04,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to exposed corruption in the Spiritualist in this 850 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:08,719 Speaker 1: Spiritualist ulcer. Now, I mean, Spiritualism has not become very florid. 851 00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,239 Speaker 1: You know, there are spirit cabinets, there are flowers that 852 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,719 Speaker 1: fall down during things. There are people who reappear this 853 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,560 Speaker 1: ghostly hands. I mean, the Spiritualist now association is very 854 00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,959 Speaker 1: large and all over the all over the country and international. 855 00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,640 Speaker 1: It has become quite elaborate. Some of them are hoaxes, 856 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:29,520 Speaker 1: some of them are not all anyway. October twenty one, 857 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,680 Speaker 1: she appears but for three thousand people in the New 858 00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,960 Speaker 1: York Academy of Music, and she gets up on the stage. 859 00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:40,000 Speaker 1: She confesses, and she says, and this is how it happens, 860 00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:43,960 Speaker 1: and she and hikes up her skirts and shows how 861 00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:48,880 Speaker 1: she makes these sounds with her feet with her toes. Um. 862 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,840 Speaker 1: And you know, by now there's a national association of 863 00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:56,480 Speaker 1: spiritualists and so on, and they are just outraged. What 864 00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:02,600 Speaker 1: follows UM is in a normal mis controversy. UM that 865 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,399 Speaker 1: goes on for a long time, and then a year 866 00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,239 Speaker 1: later because nobody by then, even though she got money 867 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,360 Speaker 1: for this performance, and she's now written a book actually 868 00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:17,320 Speaker 1: co audit this book, UM that uh about spiritualism. But 869 00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:23,080 Speaker 1: then she refutes it. She refutes her her refutation. UM. 870 00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,160 Speaker 1: Long story show it. It's it's kind of sad, but 871 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,680 Speaker 1: UM it leaves a lot of questions about her. She's 872 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,400 Speaker 1: towards the end of her life, Katie's is dying and 873 00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:39,160 Speaker 1: does die of alcoholism. Ultimately, Maggie does die two and 874 00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:42,520 Speaker 1: they're all kinds of mysterious knocks and sounds. A person 875 00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:44,800 Speaker 1: who is her nurse, it was not a spiritualist, cannot 876 00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:48,320 Speaker 1: explain them at the time of her death. UM much 877 00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:50,160 Speaker 1: more to say, but we're going to run out of time, 878 00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:55,520 Speaker 1: so I only say that this this. The psychologists have 879 00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:02,200 Speaker 1: become intrigued. This leads into William James Howard, UM, psychologist 880 00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:06,720 Speaker 1: actually in the philosophy department at Harvard, starts investigating some 881 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,440 Speaker 1: clairvoyance and one of them is Lenora piper is never explained. 882 00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:14,040 Speaker 1: You cannot. And so this this starts the whole investigation 883 00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:17,560 Speaker 1: into what we would call parapsychology today, what we would 884 00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:22,280 Speaker 1: call looking into bipolar UM. All kinds of things that 885 00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:26,720 Speaker 1: happened thereafter that become a lot more complex. UM. So 886 00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:32,160 Speaker 1: it's it's a gateway, UM, if you will into UM. 887 00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,480 Speaker 1: What we know today is a modern psych modern psycho 888 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:40,760 Speaker 1: psychology and understandings about psychiatric states and trance states and 889 00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,960 Speaker 1: illnesses and and so on. I think that's all pretty 890 00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:48,600 Speaker 1: familiar to people today. But then was brand new investigation 891 00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:52,200 Speaker 1: and lots of investigations, among them the American Society for 892 00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:57,600 Speaker 1: Psychical Research, which was bona fide um scientists, which was 893 00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,280 Speaker 1: sort of a carrier from the earlier British Society for 894 00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:08,440 Speaker 1: Psychical Research, and UM. Much much later, the National the 895 00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:13,760 Speaker 1: National Spiritualist Association of Churches with nysak UM was was 896 00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:20,120 Speaker 1: finally recognized UM as a as a legitimate religion and 897 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:25,640 Speaker 1: used to be centered in upstate New York near cassaday Or. 898 00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:28,520 Speaker 1: It's now called the lily Dale Assembly. And I've had 899 00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:33,479 Speaker 1: the privilege to go there UM and UH can meet 900 00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,880 Speaker 1: with some of the real spiritualists. I mean there's a 901 00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:38,800 Speaker 1: whole process that isn't you can just be kind of 902 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:42,200 Speaker 1: spiritualist into a seance as a whole registration. It's it's 903 00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,800 Speaker 1: very strict and fascinating. I'll just say that. One more thing. 904 00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:50,120 Speaker 1: The you know, people have laughed about this, well, people 905 00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:54,280 Speaker 1: like m Artacon and Doyle. Here we are the most 906 00:59:54,440 --> 01:00:01,800 Speaker 1: rational detective. Um writer, he's a spiritualist. Houdini started out 907 01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,760 Speaker 1: being believing in it, and then he got to debunk 908 01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,120 Speaker 1: it as a musician, as a magician. Um. You know, 909 01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:11,720 Speaker 1: it just kind of goes on. This This leads later 910 01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:16,160 Speaker 1: and much later into investigations by people like William McDougall, 911 01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:21,520 Speaker 1: Harvard psychology professor was the chairman at Duke, his disciple 912 01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:27,040 Speaker 1: Dr Joseph Banks Ryan, who look into esp um. After 913 01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:35,520 Speaker 1: World War Two. Parapsychology labs um morphed into the Parapsychology Association, 914 01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:37,440 Speaker 1: which is now part by the way of the American 915 01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:42,160 Speaker 1: Association for the Advancement of Science. So that's just kind 916 01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:47,959 Speaker 1: of a quick study, um well, quick um run through 917 01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:52,080 Speaker 1: on some of the impacts of of this spiritualism that 918 01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,760 Speaker 1: started with these two girls and a little these two 919 01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:59,760 Speaker 1: little girls teenage girls in a little farmhouse in Hydesville, 920 01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:10,600 Speaker 1: New or Eight. Hey, folks, it's Aaron here. I hope 921 01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:14,600 Speaker 1: today's interview helped you deepen your understanding of everything involved 922 01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,560 Speaker 1: in the world of spiritualism. But we're not done yet. 923 01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:20,320 Speaker 1: We have more interviews to share with you, so stick 924 01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:23,480 Speaker 1: around after this brief sponsor break to hear a preview 925 01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:35,280 Speaker 1: of next week's interview. Next time on un Obscured. The 926 01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,600 Speaker 1: kind of spiritualism that a woman like Victoria Woodhall would 927 01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:41,240 Speaker 1: practice as she traveled around the country was a much 928 01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:45,680 Speaker 1: more basic kind of almost like a advice columnists that 929 01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:47,960 Speaker 1: you might have in a newspaper today. She would set 930 01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,800 Speaker 1: up in a hotel and she didn't have seances per se. 931 01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,760 Speaker 1: She had one on one encounters with people who would 932 01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:57,920 Speaker 1: come in with maybe physical maladies or problems in their marriage, 933 01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:01,440 Speaker 1: problems with their children's by financial problems, you know, just 934 01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:03,800 Speaker 1: the basic things that a person would go to a 935 01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:07,600 Speaker 1: priest or a therapist or a politician if they so 936 01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:12,400 Speaker 1: dared and described their situation and ask for help. These 937 01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:17,720 Speaker 1: people knew Victoria wasn't equipped to provide them with actual help, 938 01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:20,200 Speaker 1: but in many cases it was enough for just to 939 01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,200 Speaker 1: have someone to listen to what they had to say, 940 01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,360 Speaker 1: and that in itself was empowering both for them and 941 01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:29,640 Speaker 1: for her. For spiritualists, that kind of conversation, you can 942 01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:32,560 Speaker 1: imagine after a few years, the experience they would build, 943 01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:34,919 Speaker 1: you know, and the kind of advice that they could 944 01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:38,640 Speaker 1: then offer, and how it became very social and very 945 01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:42,280 Speaker 1: political because they knew so many people were suffering from 946 01:02:42,320 --> 01:03:02,720 Speaker 1: the same problem. Unobscured was created by me Aaron Mankey 947 01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:06,160 Speaker 1: and produced by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, and Josh Thane 948 01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:09,640 Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Research and writing for 949 01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:11,840 Speaker 1: this season is all the work of my right hand 950 01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,080 Speaker 1: man Carl Nellis and the brilliant Chad Lawson composed the 951 01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:19,400 Speaker 1: brand new soundtrack. Learn more about our contributing historians, source 952 01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,640 Speaker 1: material and links to our other shows over at History 953 01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:27,680 Speaker 1: unobscured dot com and until next time, thanks for listening 954 01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,640 Speaker 1: Unobscured as a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Monkey. 955 01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:39,920 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit i heeart 956 01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,360 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 957 01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:43,040 Speaker 1: favorite shows.