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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick. And today we're back with the

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Speaker 3: second part in our Halloween season series about tales of

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Speaker 3: haunted houses.

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Speaker 4: From the ancient Greco-Roman world.

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Speaker 3: Of course, the haunted house is a well-known setting for

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Speaker 3: modern ghost stories, but it turns out there are descriptions

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Speaker 3: of haunted houses going all the way back into antiquity.

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Speaker 3: So in the last episode, we focused on one of

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Speaker 3: the big examples, one of the things that scholars talk

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Speaker 3: about the most from the surviving literature, which is a

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Speaker 3: letter from the first and second century Roman author Pliny

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Speaker 3: the Younger, In this letter, Pliny writes to a friend,

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Speaker 3: a Roman senator named Sura, asking if Sura.

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Speaker 4: Believes in ghosts.

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Speaker 3: And he's like, and you really, I know you like

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Speaker 3: to argue both sides of something, but you really got

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Speaker 3: to come down one side or the other because I

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Speaker 3: need to know.

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Speaker 4: He says, I want to know if you believe in ghosts.

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Speaker 3: And then Pliny gives a trio of stories that he says,

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Speaker 3: that Pliny says compel him to accept that ghosts are

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Speaker 3: real and have their own substance and divinity. And one

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Speaker 3: of the three stories he describes is the tale of

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Speaker 3: a philosopher named Athena Doris, who rents a haunted house

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Speaker 3: in Athens, confronts the ghost, and is able to solve

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Speaker 3: the problem of the haunting by finding bones that are

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Speaker 3: hidden under the courtyard. And then he makes sure that

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Speaker 3: they get a proper public burial, and that allows the

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Speaker 3: ghost to move on to the afterlife. So we talked

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Speaker 3: about a lot of interesting features of this account, including

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Speaker 3: the question of whether it provides any evidence of a

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Speaker 3: broader haunted house genre of folktale at the time of

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Speaker 3: Pliny's writing. Because you can't know for sure when you

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Speaker 3: read the story, whether it's just a unique account that

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Speaker 3: Pliny has heard, or whether it is a type of

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Speaker 3: story that was common in the Roman Empire. Of course,

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Speaker 3: we modern readers recognize that it is a type of

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Speaker 3: story today. But the question is, did that type of story,

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Speaker 3: the haunted house format, evolve later? Or was that something

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Speaker 3: that existed at the time?

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And of course, it's worth noting again that there's still

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Speaker 2: plenty of other ghost stories, but we're dealing very particularly

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Speaker 2: with ghost stories that involve like a ghost localized to

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Speaker 2: a home. And it's haunting is very much tied up

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Speaker 2: in some sort of essentially in kind of like property

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Speaker 2: issues to a certain extent. And we talked about that

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Speaker 2: in the last episode.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And often has a There's a problem solving element to

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Speaker 3: the haunted house story. Unlike some other ghost stories, which

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Speaker 3: just have a random scary thing happening. Whereas in the

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Speaker 3: haunted house story, it follows like the, the, the structure

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Speaker 3: we see with the Athena Doris tale, where there is

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Speaker 3: a haunting people are driven away from the home. Eventually

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Speaker 3: somebody must solve the problem. They investigate, they figure out

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Speaker 3: how to fix the problem. In this case, it has

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Speaker 3: to do with finding the bones of a person left there.

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Speaker 3: We don't ever learn the full story of the person,

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Speaker 3: of the ghost or the person the bones belong to,

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Speaker 3: but the bones are given a proper burial and that

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Speaker 3: fixes the issue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Involving a brave person, generally a scholar or

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Speaker 2: some sort of skeptic who essentially does like the very

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Speaker 2: what is today cliche thing of like, well, I better

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Speaker 2: spend the night in this haunted house or I better

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Speaker 2: like settle in and do some studying in this haunted house,

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Speaker 2: do some reading. and then wait for the ghost to

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Speaker 2: appear to me. Now, I want to mention again a

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Speaker 2: couple of sources that I'm going to refer to. One

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Speaker 2: is Haunted Greece and Rome, Ghost Stories from Classical Antiquity

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Speaker 2: by D. Felton. And then the other is Magic Witchcraft

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Speaker 2: and Ghosts in the Greek and Roman Worlds by Daniel Ogden.

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Speaker 2: Both of these are great authors. These are both really

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Speaker 2: fun books. I recommend them to anyone who wants to

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Speaker 2: learn more about this. And both of these authors have

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Speaker 2: a number of books dealing with various supernatural traditions. from antiquity.

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Speaker 2: We've referred to Ogden's work before, and I might come

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Speaker 2: back to another of Felton's books later this month. There's

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Speaker 2: one of her takes on a particular topic that I've

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Speaker 2: been thinking of, like, oh, that would be a great

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Speaker 2: single episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. We'll see. Okay.

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Speaker 2: I do want to come back to one thing we

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Speaker 2: talked about. So in the last episode, we talked about

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Speaker 2: the different varieties of ghosts that you might encounter. and

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Speaker 2: in Ogden's book, he lays out the three varieties that

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Speaker 2: we already discussed, but also mentions a fourth. So first,

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Speaker 2: the three that we already referenced. First, there are the aoroi.

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Speaker 2: These are those that are dead before their time. We

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Speaker 2: talked about this. Certain time is measured out by the fates,

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Speaker 2: and if you die before that time, well, you still

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Speaker 2: got some time that you're supposed to be on Earth,

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Speaker 2: so you're just going to have to Wait that out

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Speaker 2: until you can enter into Hades. Then there are the Baeothanatoi,

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Speaker 2: and these are those that are dead by violence. And

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Speaker 2: these are supposed to be particularly dangerous, as you might imagine,

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Speaker 2: because their end is tied up in violence, and therefore

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Speaker 2: their ghosts may be violent as well. Then there are

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Speaker 2: the Atofoi, and these are the ones that were deprived

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Speaker 2: of a proper burial. They might have been buried, but

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Speaker 2: it wasn't a proper burial, and therefore that's what needs

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Speaker 2: to be rectified.

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Speaker 3: And we mentioned this in the last episode, but it

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Speaker 3: really is worth emphasizing again how much preoccupation in actually

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Speaker 3: many different cultures around the ancient Mediterranean and the ancient

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Speaker 3: Near East where you find this literature with a preoccupation

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Speaker 3: with getting the proper funeral rites and getting whatever your

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Speaker 3: culture thinks the right thing to do with a dead

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Speaker 3: body is. It's really important that you get that yourself.

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Speaker 3: And if you don't get it, that is not just

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Speaker 3: something that's a little distasteful. That is a terrifying prospect

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Speaker 3: to people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And we've discussed similar situations in other cultures like

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Speaker 2: the Jiangxi, the hopping vampires of China. Like that tradition

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Speaker 2: has its roots in kind of a big public outcry

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Speaker 2: and a lot of anxiety about corpses not being given

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Speaker 2: a proper burial. So go back and listen to that

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Speaker 2: episode in the audio archives if you're interested. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: there's a fourth example that Ogden lays out, and that

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Speaker 2: is the agamoi. And these are those that die before marriage.

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Speaker 2: He says that they could be male or female, but

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Speaker 2: it sounds like female agamoi were more common and were

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Speaker 2: more typical of the case as marriage and motherhood were, quote,

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Speaker 2: a woman's defining rights in antiquity.

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Speaker 3: So it was another way of sort of a variation

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Speaker 3: on dying before your time, but like Dying before you

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Speaker 3: could can reach this important milestone in life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Like one imagines a ghost of a Hollywood

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Speaker 2: director who who is haunting because he hasn't won an

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Speaker 2: Oscar yet. Like some sort of defining milestone for a

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Speaker 2: particular individual or a class of individuals has not been met.

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Speaker 2: And therefore, some haunting has to be done.

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Speaker 1: Hmm.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm reading a book about old Hollywood ghosts right now,

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Speaker 2: so that's probably why that particular example came to mind.

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Speaker 4: That did seem very specific. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Okay, are you ready to talk about another example, one

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Speaker 3: of the three big examples of a haunted house story

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Speaker 3: from the ancient world, the one from Plautus?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love the title on this one.

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Speaker 3: This is from a play called The Mostelaria. So The

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Speaker 3: Mostelaria is a farce written for the stage by a

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Speaker 3: Roman playwright named Titus Macius Plautus, who lived 254 to

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Speaker 3: 184 BCE. The name of the play translates to the

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Speaker 3: ghost or maybe ghostly ghost. And the plot is basically

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Speaker 3: a cross between House on Haunted Hill and risky business.

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Speaker 2: But it really is.

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Speaker 3: It's set in Athens in Greece. And I was thinking

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Speaker 3: about this because this is set in Athens. Pliny's haunted

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Speaker 3: house story is also set in Athens. This made me

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Speaker 3: start to wonder if the ancient Romans thought of Athens

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Speaker 3: as particularly haunted, maybe the way Americans would think of. Salem,

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Speaker 3: Massachusetts or New Orleans, you know, these cities that are

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Speaker 3: known for having a lot of ghost stories and hauntings.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't find any evidence of this as a general belief.

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Speaker 3: Both of these stories, as best I can tell, both

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Speaker 3: of these stories being located in Athens is probably just

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Speaker 3: a coincidence and maybe even has to do with just

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Speaker 3: Athens being a common reference point in Greece. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's where things in Greece happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I looked into this. I was reading in Ogden.

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Speaker 2: And he indicates that Athens is just kind of the

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Speaker 2: default setting for the Greek new comedy. This is where

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Speaker 2: the focus is on more domestic life and drama over

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Speaker 2: political satire. And Romans, you know, later adapted these plays.

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Speaker 2: And so it became the main setting for these sorts

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Speaker 2: of dramas and also the subset of those dramas that

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Speaker 2: have supernatural elements to them. So I guess it's kind

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Speaker 2: of like New York is a setting for movies. Is

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Speaker 2: New York haunted? Yeah. I mean, it's an historic city

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Speaker 2: and a lot of supernatural stories are set there. But

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Speaker 2: then again, there are just a whole lot of stories

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Speaker 2: set there in general. So Chud and Ghostbusters take place

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Speaker 2: in New York City, but so do, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: at Tiffany's and Midnight Cowboy. But at the same time,

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Speaker 2: it's like you can still focus in and say, yeah,

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Speaker 2: New York is a haunted city. You can take horror

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Speaker 2: movie location tours of New York City. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of like both are true at the same time.

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Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean that like hauntings or supernatural events

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Speaker 3: are one of the top associations people would have had

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Speaker 3: with this place.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's not like if you had something set in Salem,

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Speaker 2: to your point, because if you're setting it in Salem,

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Speaker 2: it probably involves witches. Surely there's an example contrary to this,

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Speaker 2: but I would be surprised if it just happens to

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Speaker 2: be a romantic comedy that takes place in Salem and

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Speaker 2: never acknowledges witchcraft at all.

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Speaker 4: That would be funny.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: So the most Delaria, one thing to really note about

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Speaker 3: this play is that it is not a work of

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Speaker 3: horror and it is not even a serious work of drama.

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Speaker 3: It is a farcical comedy. So the haunting in this

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Speaker 3: play is not genuine. Instead, this is an early example

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Speaker 3: of the Scooby-Doo format. It is a Scooby-Doo style hoax

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Speaker 3: perpetrated by a naughty young man who and his co-conspirator

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Speaker 3: to avoid getting in trouble with the young man's dad.

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Speaker 3: So the plot goes like this. It concerns the antics

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Speaker 3: and misbehavior of Philolakis, the son of a rich Athenian

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Speaker 3: merchant named Theopropides. Theopropides has been out of town for

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Speaker 3: a long time. He's been away, I think, for years

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Speaker 3: on business. leaving his son Philolakis in charge of the house.

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Speaker 3: So together with his slave, Trenio, Philolakis has been throwing wild,

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Speaker 3: huge parties, has been drinking wine, has been spending money,

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Speaker 3: just lavish spending of money. So it's a total party house.

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Speaker 3: And Philolakis also ends up borrowing a large sum of

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Speaker 3: money to purchase the freedom of a slave named Philematium

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Speaker 3: with whom he is in love. Uh, so now the

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Speaker 3: house is a wreck. It's full of party guests. You

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Speaker 3: can just imagine the, you know, wine bottles scattered everywhere. Uh,

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Speaker 3: I don't know if there would have been bottles at

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Speaker 3: the time when, you know, what's the ancient, ancient Athens

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Speaker 3: equivalent of solo cups all over the floor. Uh, and

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Speaker 3: Philematium is has purchased the freedom of Philematium, but he

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Speaker 3: is now badly in debt. He owes a lot of

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Speaker 3: money to a loan.

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Speaker 4: Shark, basically.

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Speaker 3: So that's the state of affairs at the beginning of

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Speaker 3: the play. But then suddenly things get a lot worse

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Speaker 3: because Tranio runs up to the house, having come back

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Speaker 3: from the harbor. I think he was supposed to be

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Speaker 3: down there buying fish.

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Speaker 4: Maybe for the party.

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Speaker 3: And Traineo says, uh-oh, dad's home. Theopropides has landed in

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Speaker 3: the harbor and he is on the way up to

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Speaker 3: the house now. So the question is, what are Philolakis

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Speaker 3: and Traineo going to do to get out of this mess?

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Speaker 3: Traineo has a brilliant idea. He says, we're going to

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Speaker 3: convince Theopropides that he cannot come into the house because

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Speaker 3: while he was away, we discovered that it was haunted.

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Speaker 3: And he comes up with this story about how there

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Speaker 3: was once a murder that took place in the house,

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Speaker 3: and the ghost of the man who was killed is

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Speaker 3: now running wild and will maybe inflict a death curse

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Speaker 3: on anybody who touches the front door.

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Speaker 4: So, Rob, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Do you want to do a reading of this? Do

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Speaker 3: you want to trade off these lines or something? Okay,

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Speaker 3: so we haven't rehearsed this. This may be a little creaky.

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Speaker 3: But I pulled in some of the original text. This

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Speaker 3: is from the translation by Henry Thomas Riley. And the

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Speaker 3: setup to this exchange is that Theopropides, the father, has

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Speaker 3: just arrived home. And Trenio, the very smart, improvising slave,

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Speaker 3: is coming up with a cover story. So when Theopropides

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Speaker 3: tries to open the front door, Trenio warns him not

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Speaker 3: to touch the house, saying it could lead to the

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Speaker 3: death of his entire family. And then Theopropides demands an explanation. Rob,

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Speaker 3: do you have a preference which role you take here?

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Speaker 2: Oh, I can be Traneo. Okay.

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Speaker 3: Do you do the Traneo lines? I'll do the dad lines,

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Speaker 3: the Theopropides lines.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's see. A crime, tell you, has been

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Speaker 2: committed here a long while ago, one of olden time

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Speaker 2: and ancient date.

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Speaker 4: Of ancient date?

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Speaker 2: Tis but recently, in fact, that we've discovered this deed.

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Speaker 4: What is this crime, or who committed it? Tell me.

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Speaker 2: A host slew his guest, seized with his hand he,

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Speaker 2: I fancy, who sold you the house.

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Speaker 4: Slew him?

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Speaker 2: And robbed this guest of his gold, and buried this

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Speaker 2: guest there in the house, on the spot.

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Speaker 4: For what reason do you suspect that this took place?

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Speaker 2: I tell you, listen. One day, when your son had

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Speaker 2: dined away from home, after he returned home from dining,

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Speaker 2: we all went to bed and fell asleep. By accident,

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Speaker 2: I had forgotten to put out my lamp. And he,

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, called out aloud.

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Speaker 4: What person? My son?

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Speaker 2: Hold your peace. Just listen. He said that a dead

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Speaker 2: man came to him in his sleep.

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Speaker 4: In his dreams, then, you mean?

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Speaker 2: Just so. But only listen. He said that he had

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Speaker 2: met with his death by these means. What?

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Speaker 4: In his sleep?

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Speaker 2: It would have been surprising if he had told him

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Speaker 2: awake who had been murdered 60 years ago. On some occasions,

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Speaker 2: you are absurdly simple. But look what he said. I

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Speaker 2: am the guest of Diapontius from beyond the seas. Here

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Speaker 2: do I dwell. This has been assigned me as my abode,

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Speaker 2: for Orcus would not receive me in Acheron because prematurely

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Speaker 2: I lost my life. Through confiding was I deceived. My

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Speaker 2: entertainer slew me here, and that villain secretly laid me

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Speaker 2: in the ground without funeral rites in this house on

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Speaker 2: the spot for the sake of gold. Now do you

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Speaker 2: depart from here. This house is accursed. This dwelling is defiled.

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Speaker 2: The wonders that Here take place. Hardly in a year

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Speaker 2: could I recount them. Hush, hush.

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Speaker 3: Okay, and so the scene obviously continues from there. One

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Speaker 3: thing that's worth noting in this play is the dynamic

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Speaker 3: between the son, Philolakis, and the slave, Traneo. In some ways,

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Speaker 3: it is like the Jeeves and Worcester stories by P.G. Woodhouse,

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Speaker 3: where in these stories you have Worcester, the young aristocrat,

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Speaker 3: who is a good-for-nothing fool, just totally incompetent, never understands

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Speaker 3: what's going on. And then you have his manservant Jeeves,

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Speaker 3: who is incredibly quick-witted and resourceful and has to solve

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Speaker 3: all of Worcester's ridiculous problems for him. This story is

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Speaker 3: a lot like that. Philolakis is totally hapless. He can't

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Speaker 3: do anything. And Trenio is very clever and quick-witted and resourceful.

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Speaker 3: But one difference, I think, from Jeeves is that Traneo

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Speaker 3: is not blameless. He's not just solving problems the son created.

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Speaker 3: He's also partly responsible for causing the mess in the

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Speaker 3: first place. Like the parties have been instigated by Philolakis

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Speaker 3: and Traneo together.

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Speaker 4: They have been partying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very much an accomplice in all of this. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So from this scene, the normal dynamics of a farce continue. Uh,

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Speaker 3: new problems keep arising. Like people will show up, you know,

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Speaker 3: like the money lender appears, say, Hey, I'm here to

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Speaker 3: collect on that debt that Philo Lockheed owes. And Trenio

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Speaker 3: has to find a way to cover for this too.

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Speaker 3: So he comes up with this idea that, uh, actually

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Speaker 3: we have a debt because we bought the.

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Speaker 4: House next door.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We're buying, we're investing, uh, you know, cause he's trying

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Speaker 3: to make a good impression on the dad. Like we're

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Speaker 3: getting into business. It's real estate now. And they just

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Speaker 3: keep having to improvise. Traneo is doing all these elaborate

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Speaker 3: tricks to keep from being discovered. And eventually they go

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Speaker 3: into touring the house next door under false pretenses, and

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Speaker 3: it's a whole thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and as both Ogden and Felton mentioned, especially Felton,

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Speaker 2: the story that he's telling actually has a lot of

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Speaker 2: errors and inconsistencies in it, which maybe we'll tease apart

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Speaker 2: in a bit, because the idea is He's making all

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Speaker 2: of this up on the spot. I am reminded of this,

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Speaker 2: and maybe some of our people my age are reminded

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Speaker 2: of this as well. Like the John Lovitz character on

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Speaker 2: Saturday Night Live where he's just like, ah, that's the ticket.

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Speaker 2: He's just making up the story on the fly. Liars

340
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Speaker 2: Anonymous or something. Yeah, yeah. And so part of the

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Speaker 2: whole dramatic comedic tension here is, is the father going

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Speaker 2: to really be able to have time to call him

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Speaker 2: on any of these errors and these various inconsistencies and

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Speaker 2: plot holes? And is Traneo going to be able to

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Speaker 2: just sort of like charge through it and be like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: you're in danger, you know, and just really moving on

347
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Speaker 2: to the next thing and making sure there's not enough

348
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Speaker 2: space in the conversation for the old man to really

349
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Speaker 2: call him on it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And this is still a dramatic form today, like the

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00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,109
Speaker 3: farce in which somebody is putting together, like improvising an

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Speaker 3: elaborate ruse or lie, and they just have to keep

354
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Speaker 3: coming up with new covers more and more quickly to

355
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Speaker 3: cover up more absurd problems. Uh, but eventually at the

356
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Speaker 3: end of the story, uh, Theopropides discovers the truth and

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Speaker 3: there is a happy ending there. There's an interlude where

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Speaker 3: things look really rough, like, uh, Traineo runs to claim

359
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Speaker 3: sanctuary by he like grips the altar of a god

360
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Speaker 3: to be like you can't punish me yet but theopropides

361
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Speaker 3: is like well i'm going to crucify you.

362
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Speaker 4: I'm going to have you flayed.

363
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Speaker 3: Like he threatens a lot of really, uh, harsh punishment,

364
00:19:54,220 --> 00:19:58,140
Speaker 3: but then, uh, things are redeemed when. I follow Lockie's

365
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,580
Speaker 3: wealthy friend who I think had been showing up in

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00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,919
Speaker 3: the play drunk earlier. Uh, he now seems sobered up

367
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Speaker 3: and he, uh, shows up and says, Oh, Hey, you know,

368
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:09,810
Speaker 3: I'll repay the son's debt for him. And then the

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Speaker 3: father forgives the son and eventually forgives Trenio, too.

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Speaker 4: So they're off the hook.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a comedy, right? You got to send everybody

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Speaker 2: home happy.

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Speaker 3: So the Mostelaria is thought to be a Latin adaptation

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Speaker 3: of an earlier play in Greek by an author named Philemon.

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Speaker 3: But I believe, Rob, did your sources also say the

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Speaker 3: Greek play is lost? We don't have that, whatever it was.

377
00:20:33,010 --> 00:20:35,400
Speaker 2: I think that's the case, yes. Yes, but they did

378
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:36,660
Speaker 2: refer to the Greek play.

379
00:20:37,690 --> 00:20:40,370
Speaker 3: And just want to note one more time, there is

380
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Speaker 3: no haunting in this play. So it's a haunted house story,

381
00:20:43,830 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 3: but the haunted house is only a lie made up

382
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 3: to cover up for a house that has been turned

383
00:20:50,180 --> 00:20:53,160
Speaker 3: into a total party house against the owner's wishes. So

384
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Speaker 3: a ghost never appears.

385
00:20:54,460 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 4: It's more like Scooby-Doo.

386
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Speaker 3: And there's one interesting thing about that fact, I was thinking,

387
00:21:00,590 --> 00:21:04,189
Speaker 3: which is that if this is a comedy... And the

388
00:21:04,310 --> 00:21:09,560
Speaker 3: haunted house is suggested as a farcical ruse to cover

389
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Speaker 3: up the evidence that Philolockes and Trenio have been partying.

390
00:21:14,180 --> 00:21:19,140
Speaker 3: That would sort of imply that haunted house was already

391
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Speaker 3: like a culturally available concept with widely understood implications.

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Speaker 4: Does that make sense?

393
00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:27,060
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.

394
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Speaker 3: It feels like you couldn't pull that in as a

395
00:21:29,180 --> 00:21:31,859
Speaker 3: comedy concept if it wasn't already a thing people had

396
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:32,379
Speaker 3: heard of.

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00:21:33,070 --> 00:21:35,850
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's generally the scholarly take on

398
00:21:35,869 --> 00:21:39,190
Speaker 2: all of this. Like, this is essentially a parody. For instance,

399
00:21:39,250 --> 00:21:41,930
Speaker 2: you can't have scary movie if you don't have Scream first, right?

400
00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:42,770
Speaker 4: Perfect, exactly.

401
00:21:42,810 --> 00:21:44,050
Speaker 2: That's sort of what's going on here.

402
00:21:44,410 --> 00:21:45,750
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's right.

403
00:21:46,210 --> 00:21:49,210
Speaker 2: And given, again, how little we have in terms of

404
00:21:49,270 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 2: surviving haunted house tales from this period, like, this is telling.

405
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,120
Speaker 2: This means that stories like this widely circulated and were

406
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,020
Speaker 2: known because you can parody it in this form. Like,

407
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 2: I imagine this play would still be humorous and entertaining

408
00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 2: if you were not up on haunted house tales but

409
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,139
Speaker 2: it does seem to ask or expect that kind of

410
00:22:10,220 --> 00:22:15,210
Speaker 2: knowledge of the intended viewer yeah let's see um referring

411
00:22:15,230 --> 00:22:17,850
Speaker 2: back to ogden and felton um i have some notes

412
00:22:17,890 --> 00:22:22,230
Speaker 2: here to refer to on other other comments they had

413
00:22:22,250 --> 00:22:25,950
Speaker 2: um this is very similar in form to the next

414
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:28,330
Speaker 2: tale we're going to discuss the tale from lucian um

415
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,340
Speaker 2: though this one, to be sure, occurs much earlier. So

416
00:22:32,340 --> 00:22:35,959
Speaker 2: 200 BCE versus the 170 CE.

417
00:22:36,420 --> 00:22:36,620
Speaker 4: Yeah.

418
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,369
Speaker 3: So the chronological order of the main three examples we're

419
00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:42,169
Speaker 3: going to be talking about in this series is that

420
00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:45,550
Speaker 3: this one comes first. You've got Plautus, and then several

421
00:22:45,630 --> 00:22:49,129
Speaker 3: hundred years later, you've got Pliny's letter. And then after that, still,

422
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:51,070
Speaker 3: you've got the next example we're going to get to,

423
00:22:51,150 --> 00:22:53,409
Speaker 3: which is in the works of Lucian of Samosata.

424
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So we talked about Pliny first because it's

425
00:22:55,940 --> 00:22:57,620
Speaker 2: the big one, and it's in a way the most

426
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,530
Speaker 2: insightful example. But You know, these are just the three

427
00:23:00,570 --> 00:23:02,350
Speaker 2: that have remained. Everything else has been washed away by

428
00:23:02,390 --> 00:23:08,330
Speaker 2: the tides of time. But yeah, like we can see

429
00:23:08,350 --> 00:23:10,300
Speaker 2: the similar form in all of them. We can see

430
00:23:10,340 --> 00:23:15,340
Speaker 2: them referring to seemingly to expected tropes concerning a haunted

431
00:23:15,380 --> 00:23:15,939
Speaker 2: house story.

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00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:17,020
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.

433
00:23:18,460 --> 00:23:21,419
Speaker 2: And let's see here. We also get some grounding as

434
00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:25,150
Speaker 2: well that may be somewhat subverted in Pliny's 107 CE account.

435
00:23:27,390 --> 00:23:29,290
Speaker 2: to come into contact with a ghost or even a

436
00:23:29,450 --> 00:23:33,730
Speaker 2: haunted house may pretty much mean certain death. The ghost

437
00:23:33,790 --> 00:23:36,550
Speaker 2: might beckon you straight to Hades. Remember, we talked about

438
00:23:36,590 --> 00:23:40,219
Speaker 2: the beckoning of the ghost in Pliny the Younger's story,

439
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 2: where to be beckoned by the ghost, it could just

440
00:23:45,020 --> 00:23:47,700
Speaker 2: mean instant death, but a wise man knows to sort

441
00:23:47,740 --> 00:23:50,500
Speaker 2: of brave that out and take it to the next level.

442
00:23:51,140 --> 00:23:54,770
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting. Both stories make reference to the ghost

443
00:23:54,869 --> 00:23:58,340
Speaker 3: causing death. In this case, Traneo says to the father,

444
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,899
Speaker 3: don't even touch the doorknob, because that could mean everyone

445
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,540
Speaker 3: in the family dies. In the story told by Pliny,

446
00:24:04,180 --> 00:24:07,179
Speaker 3: of course, Athena Doris, the brave philosopher, is not harmed,

447
00:24:07,220 --> 00:24:08,869
Speaker 3: but it says that the people who were in the

448
00:24:08,910 --> 00:24:11,590
Speaker 3: house before that, they had encounters with the ghost and

449
00:24:11,630 --> 00:24:14,530
Speaker 3: then literally died of fright. They were so terrified they

450
00:24:14,570 --> 00:24:16,330
Speaker 3: became ill and just passed away.

451
00:24:16,350 --> 00:24:16,429
Speaker 1: Yeah.

452
00:24:17,830 --> 00:24:20,389
Speaker 2: So Ogden points out that, yeah, there are all these

453
00:24:20,410 --> 00:24:24,189
Speaker 2: little logical inconsistencies. Like he mentions that the ghost has

454
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:26,370
Speaker 2: been dead for 60 years, but shouldn't that be enough

455
00:24:26,410 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 2: to fulfill the remainder of its span-based contract, you know,

456
00:24:30,170 --> 00:24:33,380
Speaker 2: if it died before its time? And Trenio doesn't bother

457
00:24:33,420 --> 00:24:36,020
Speaker 2: with these details and is perhaps, again, is just telling,

458
00:24:36,260 --> 00:24:37,859
Speaker 2: he's just making it up as he goes. So it's

459
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,859
Speaker 2: just like press through and then just make sure you

460
00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:42,619
Speaker 2: insist on how dangerous everything is.

461
00:24:43,180 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you can probably get a flavor from

462
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 3: that dialogue we read that the text has this fast-moving

463
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 3: quality where the improvisation is occurring so quickly it's as

464
00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:56,369
Speaker 3: if to paper over any kind of discrepancies or questions

465
00:24:56,430 --> 00:24:57,310
Speaker 3: that may arise.

466
00:24:57,390 --> 00:24:59,750
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Trenio is acting like a con artist,

467
00:25:00,210 --> 00:25:03,730
Speaker 2: and he is keeping things moving and really insisting on

468
00:25:03,750 --> 00:25:05,109
Speaker 2: the urgency of the scenario.

469
00:25:05,410 --> 00:25:06,350
Speaker 4: Yeah.

470
00:25:06,650 --> 00:25:09,490
Speaker 2: Trenio is also careless in naming the ghost of a

471
00:25:09,550 --> 00:25:14,649
Speaker 2: guest from across the sea Diapontius, which apparently literally means

472
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: guest from across the sea. So, You know, it's almost like,

473
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,780
Speaker 2: you know, staring across the street and naming a character

474
00:25:20,820 --> 00:25:22,860
Speaker 2: off of a street sign, you know, which is often

475
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 2: done to, sometimes done for dramatic effect, obviously, but often

476
00:25:26,220 --> 00:25:28,230
Speaker 2: done for comedic effect. And so there's maybe a little

477
00:25:28,250 --> 00:25:29,370
Speaker 2: of that energy going on here.

478
00:25:29,690 --> 00:25:32,150
Speaker 3: His name was Cat Branch Man.

479
00:25:32,170 --> 00:25:37,429
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sort of thing. Felton says that, yeah, we

480
00:25:37,470 --> 00:25:40,030
Speaker 2: have all these errors and inconsistencies, and it suggests that

481
00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:43,530
Speaker 2: the tighter, leak-free versions of the popular ghost story would

482
00:25:43,570 --> 00:25:46,110
Speaker 2: have made this exchange both funny and tension-building.

483
00:25:46,130 --> 00:25:46,490
Speaker 4: Like, there were.

484
00:25:47,540 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 2: Anybody watching this would know how things are supposed to

485
00:25:50,540 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 2: line up and know that there are some errors here.

486
00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 2: The author is also playing on the beats of popular tragedies.

487
00:25:59,460 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: The big one being that the ghost reveals a crime

488
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,780
Speaker 2: that was committed against it in life. And apparently it's

489
00:26:06,820 --> 00:26:09,129
Speaker 2: uncertain if this is a direct parody of such a

490
00:26:09,180 --> 00:26:13,010
Speaker 2: play or the trope itself. But authors such as Euripides

491
00:26:13,150 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: use this specifically in the telling of Polydorus. in his Hecuba,

492
00:26:18,580 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 2: Polydorus of the Iliad, is a ghost and a character,

493
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,310
Speaker 2: and his death is the cause of the main conflict

494
00:26:24,350 --> 00:26:27,689
Speaker 2: in the play. And in fact, the ghost delivers the prologue.

495
00:26:28,470 --> 00:26:30,109
Speaker 2: So again, we also have to factor in, yeah, there

496
00:26:30,130 --> 00:26:31,730
Speaker 2: are all these other ghost stories that are not haunted

497
00:26:31,770 --> 00:26:33,649
Speaker 2: house stories, and there are all these other plays that

498
00:26:33,670 --> 00:26:34,650
Speaker 2: have ghosts in them.

499
00:26:35,210 --> 00:26:36,350
Speaker 4: Yeah.

500
00:26:36,510 --> 00:26:38,870
Speaker 2: Another thing Felton points out is that in a comedy,

501
00:26:39,410 --> 00:26:42,510
Speaker 2: an enslaved person like Trenio would never get to kill

502
00:26:42,550 --> 00:26:45,930
Speaker 2: his master, but can instead, quote, slay him with words.

503
00:26:46,530 --> 00:26:48,109
Speaker 2: And so there's a lot of that in here. I

504
00:26:48,130 --> 00:26:50,190
Speaker 2: think even what we read, there's a little bit of

505
00:26:50,250 --> 00:26:52,830
Speaker 2: that flavor where he gets to do some little asides.

506
00:26:52,990 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 2: I think there's a bit in what I read that

507
00:26:55,380 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 2: maybe sounds like a direct insult, and maybe that would

508
00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:00,540
Speaker 2: be a part that would be kind of directed at

509
00:27:00,580 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 2: the audience, breaking the fourth wall. So I think that's

510
00:27:04,220 --> 00:27:06,619
Speaker 2: amusing here as well. And it's part of why this

511
00:27:06,660 --> 00:27:09,370
Speaker 2: character is a lot of fun, because he has kind

512
00:27:09,410 --> 00:27:13,500
Speaker 2: of a, He serves like two kind of befuddled or

513
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,940
Speaker 2: dimwitted people. Both the son and the father are kind

514
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 2: of fools in their own way. And he's kind of

515
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: like suspended between the two of them, making the best

516
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,739
Speaker 2: of the life that he can. But he's also, to

517
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,540
Speaker 2: our point, very much an accomplice of the son.

518
00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

519
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,719
Speaker 2: There's this bit, I happen to have forgotten to put

520
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,570
Speaker 2: out the lamp, which Felton connects to something we were

521
00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:34,370
Speaker 2: talking about in the last episode, this idea that lights...

522
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 2: can draw in spirits. Lights are left in graves. Lights

523
00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: are used in funeral processions. And so there's a connection

524
00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:45,300
Speaker 2: between ghosts and lanterns or lamps or candles. And then

525
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,420
Speaker 2: there's also some discussion in Felton's work about dream ghosts

526
00:27:49,460 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 2: versus ghosts encountered in reality. Because obviously in the part

527
00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:55,300
Speaker 2: that we read, that keeps tripping up the father. He's like, wait, wait,

528
00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: was this a dream? And so there's like some known

529
00:27:59,619 --> 00:28:03,230
Speaker 2: difference between what it means to encounter a ghost within

530
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,780
Speaker 2: a dream and a ghost like in the real world,

531
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 2: maybe not quite in the flesh, but maybe in the ectoplasm.

532
00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 2: Felton also points out that Trenio risks tipping his hand

533
00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:16,770
Speaker 2: and saying the ghost was improperly buried because we all,

534
00:28:16,850 --> 00:28:19,090
Speaker 2: just from listening to the last episode, you know how

535
00:28:19,150 --> 00:28:21,290
Speaker 2: this is easily rectified in stories, right?

536
00:28:21,570 --> 00:28:22,350
Speaker 4: Right.

537
00:28:22,490 --> 00:28:25,310
Speaker 2: Okay, if there's an improper burial, let's solve this right now.

538
00:28:25,790 --> 00:28:29,190
Speaker 2: So Trenio has to push through this With inspired delivery,

539
00:28:29,250 --> 00:28:31,930
Speaker 2: also speaking of the ghost as the victim of violent death,

540
00:28:32,430 --> 00:28:35,790
Speaker 2: as these were, you know, particularly dangerous ghosts in many tellings. So,

541
00:28:36,170 --> 00:28:37,659
Speaker 2: you know, just steamroll through it.

542
00:28:38,410 --> 00:28:38,630
Speaker 4: Yeah.

543
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,420
Speaker 2: And then he also, he has to keep covering for

544
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: claims that can easily be checked on. Like, for instance,

545
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,979
Speaker 2: the idea that the previous owner knows about this, who

546
00:28:50,260 --> 00:28:53,030
Speaker 2: it's revealed still lives and is like down the street. Yeah.

547
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: You want to keep the father from being like, OK, well,

548
00:28:57,180 --> 00:28:59,420
Speaker 2: let's just go check in with him and get the details. No, no, no.

549
00:28:59,580 --> 00:29:01,740
Speaker 2: It's too dangerous. The urgency is too great.

550
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 3: Wait, am I remembering the detail right? If the previous

551
00:29:04,620 --> 00:29:07,140
Speaker 3: owner is still alive, doesn't Trenio say that the previous

552
00:29:07,260 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 3: owner was the murderer?

553
00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, like everything.

554
00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:10,860
Speaker 4: He killed his guest.

555
00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:13,220
Speaker 2: Yeah, if he has time to think about any of this,

556
00:29:13,300 --> 00:29:15,460
Speaker 2: like all these things don't add up. Like it was

557
00:29:15,460 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 2: 60 years ago. And then the guy down the street

558
00:29:18,260 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 2: is maybe the murderer. And we can just check in

559
00:29:20,180 --> 00:29:25,090
Speaker 2: with him and we can just properly bury the body. But,

560
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,209
Speaker 2: you know, everything's very fast moving and the father's not

561
00:29:28,270 --> 00:29:31,690
Speaker 2: given time to think about this. And then Felton describes

562
00:29:31,730 --> 00:29:34,890
Speaker 2: some that, yeah, here we have an intentionally muddled ghost

563
00:29:34,910 --> 00:29:37,810
Speaker 2: story told by a clever slave, which was a stock

564
00:29:37,850 --> 00:29:41,270
Speaker 2: character of the time and a gullible. old man, which

565
00:29:41,330 --> 00:29:44,930
Speaker 2: is another stock character of the time. And to your point, Joe,

566
00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:49,290
Speaker 2: these stock characters continue on into the modern day in

567
00:29:49,670 --> 00:29:50,410
Speaker 2: different forms.

568
00:29:51,090 --> 00:29:55,090
Speaker 3: Yeah, removing some of the harsher, specific cultural aspects like

569
00:29:55,150 --> 00:29:58,910
Speaker 3: slavery and the threat of crucifixion and stuff, but Still,

570
00:29:59,070 --> 00:30:02,730
Speaker 3: it is a fun type of story people still do where, like,

571
00:30:03,170 --> 00:30:07,190
Speaker 3: somebody leads the boss on a wild goose chase. Somebody is, like,

572
00:30:07,250 --> 00:30:09,890
Speaker 3: pulling one over on the boss, and the boss is just, like,

573
00:30:10,190 --> 00:30:11,710
Speaker 3: befuddled and falling for it.

574
00:30:12,490 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. So we can think of any number of ways

575
00:30:14,820 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: this could be adapted for today's setting. And I was

576
00:30:16,900 --> 00:30:19,060
Speaker 2: looking around a little bit, and I think this place

577
00:30:19,340 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: is occasionally adapted for a modern setting, like, directly. And then,

578
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,239
Speaker 2: of course, the influence of this sort of story can

579
00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: be found all over the place as well.

580
00:30:37,300 --> 00:30:40,020
Speaker 3: Are you ready to talk about the next example from Lucian?

581
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:40,750
Speaker 2: Let's do it.

582
00:30:41,420 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 4: Okay. So this next.

583
00:30:44,340 --> 00:30:47,050
Speaker 3: Story of a haunted house comes to us from a

584
00:30:47,270 --> 00:30:51,810
Speaker 3: text called The Lover of Lies, also sometimes called The Doubter,

585
00:30:52,470 --> 00:30:57,930
Speaker 3: by the second century Syrian author Lucian of Samosata. We

586
00:30:57,970 --> 00:31:01,180
Speaker 3: have talked about Lucian on the show before. I know

587
00:31:01,220 --> 00:31:04,190
Speaker 3: he came up in the past because Lucian Lucian wrote

588
00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:09,730
Speaker 3: extensively detailing the tricks and fraud used in the Roman

589
00:31:09,850 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 3: cult of the snake god Glycon, allegedly perpetrated by the

590
00:31:14,540 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 3: cult leader Alexander of Abinotychus. And according to Lucian, Alexander

591
00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:25,020
Speaker 3: used special effects and sleight of hand to fake miracles

592
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,420
Speaker 3: and supernatural events and thus trick his gullible followers.

593
00:31:28,970 --> 00:31:31,690
Speaker 2: Was this our series on mystery cults? Yes.

594
00:31:31,950 --> 00:31:32,970
Speaker 4: We talked about it there.

595
00:31:33,310 --> 00:31:36,350
Speaker 3: Not because this was necessarily a mystery cult, but it

596
00:31:36,390 --> 00:31:39,570
Speaker 3: came up in the context of talking about using special

597
00:31:39,610 --> 00:31:46,410
Speaker 3: effects to create spectacle in ancient religious practices. So this is,

598
00:31:46,850 --> 00:31:49,890
Speaker 3: by the way, very in character for Lucian because Lucian

599
00:31:50,300 --> 00:31:54,460
Speaker 3: was sort of a James Randi figure of the Roman Empire.

600
00:31:55,110 --> 00:31:58,580
Speaker 3: A skeptical debunker, not in the sense of being an

601
00:31:58,650 --> 00:32:02,780
Speaker 3: investigator like Randy was, who would do experiments. There's no

602
00:32:03,020 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 3: real indication that Lucian did that. But he was a

603
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,060
Speaker 3: skeptical debunker in the sense that he wrote satires mocking

604
00:32:11,140 --> 00:32:16,530
Speaker 3: superstition and detailing the outrages of various alleged conmen and

605
00:32:16,610 --> 00:32:19,630
Speaker 3: frauds of his time. So he was just a guy

606
00:32:19,670 --> 00:32:24,330
Speaker 3: who loved to lampoon trickery and gullibility.

607
00:32:24,980 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

608
00:32:25,660 --> 00:32:29,010
Speaker 2: And I think in this, and also in the nature

609
00:32:29,050 --> 00:32:32,170
Speaker 2: of parody in the last story that we discussed here,

610
00:32:32,210 --> 00:32:35,390
Speaker 2: I mean, this does, I think, continue to drive home

611
00:32:35,910 --> 00:32:40,270
Speaker 2: that the people of ancient Rome were, you know, they

612
00:32:40,290 --> 00:32:43,050
Speaker 2: had kind of a mixed relationship with supernatural ideas, much

613
00:32:43,090 --> 00:32:45,170
Speaker 2: like we do today. You had true believers, and you

614
00:32:45,210 --> 00:32:47,830
Speaker 2: had hard-line skeptics, and you had people just trying to

615
00:32:47,850 --> 00:32:50,209
Speaker 2: sort of figure out where they fell. And the way

616
00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:53,020
Speaker 2: they fell might vary depending on what's going on in

617
00:32:53,140 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 2: their life and what kind of, story or, you know,

618
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,260
Speaker 2: phenomena that they're presented with.

619
00:32:58,820 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 4: I think that's right.

620
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,390
Speaker 3: And in fact, this whole, this diversity of relationships to

621
00:33:03,710 --> 00:33:08,470
Speaker 3: supernatural and superstitious beliefs is exactly the subject matter of

622
00:33:08,510 --> 00:33:11,530
Speaker 3: this book, The Lover of Lies. So the form of

623
00:33:11,570 --> 00:33:15,690
Speaker 3: The Lover of Lies is a narrative dialogue that is

624
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:19,270
Speaker 3: used to illustrate and ridicule a variety of superstitious beliefs.

625
00:33:19,850 --> 00:33:24,390
Speaker 3: The main narrator is a young man named Tycheides. who

626
00:33:24,550 --> 00:33:28,670
Speaker 3: begins by pondering the question of why people love to

627
00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:32,950
Speaker 3: believe in lies, not just why they ever fall for them,

628
00:33:32,990 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 3: but why do they cling to them with such emotional

629
00:33:35,980 --> 00:33:39,140
Speaker 3: intensity and refuse to give them up. And then he

630
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 3: narrates a bunch of instances in which people have tried

631
00:33:42,660 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 3: to convince him to believe in superstitions and miracle cures.

632
00:33:47,770 --> 00:33:50,330
Speaker 3: So here to get to the scene in question where

633
00:33:50,350 --> 00:33:52,980
Speaker 3: we have the description of a haunted house, I went

634
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 3: to the original text of The Lover of Lies, in translation,

635
00:33:56,540 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 3: of course. It's a translation by A.M.

636
00:33:58,400 --> 00:33:58,900
Speaker 4: Harmon.

637
00:33:59,860 --> 00:34:03,780
Speaker 3: And the setup is that Tycheides is hanging out at

638
00:34:03,820 --> 00:34:08,009
Speaker 3: a house belonging to a sick friend of his named Eucrates.

639
00:34:08,989 --> 00:34:10,790
Speaker 3: And there are a bunch of people coming and going,

640
00:34:10,810 --> 00:34:13,890
Speaker 3: and they're all trying to share their miracle cures. And

641
00:34:13,930 --> 00:34:17,670
Speaker 3: they're all talking about times they've had supernatural encounters. And

642
00:34:17,790 --> 00:34:21,609
Speaker 3: insisting that Tycheides believed them. And so just to give

643
00:34:21,630 --> 00:34:23,730
Speaker 3: you an idea of the sort of things that are

644
00:34:23,750 --> 00:34:27,730
Speaker 3: coming up in conversation before the haunted house scene. The

645
00:34:27,770 --> 00:34:32,670
Speaker 3: story right before this is told by Tycheides' friend Eucrates.

646
00:34:33,450 --> 00:34:37,710
Speaker 3: And Eucrates says after his beloved wife died, he burned

647
00:34:37,850 --> 00:34:41,250
Speaker 3: all of her favorite possessions on the funeral pyre with her.

648
00:34:41,870 --> 00:34:44,899
Speaker 3: But on the seventh day after that, he was sitting

649
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,529
Speaker 3: on the couch reading Plato. Like you do, you know,

650
00:34:47,550 --> 00:34:50,350
Speaker 3: just having a little Play-Doh time. And then suddenly her

651
00:34:50,530 --> 00:34:53,780
Speaker 3: spirit appeared to him and he says that he cried

652
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,820
Speaker 3: out and tried to embrace her, but the ghost wouldn't

653
00:34:56,900 --> 00:35:00,540
Speaker 3: have it. And instead she began to criticize him because

654
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,029
Speaker 3: when he burned all of her favorite clothes and possessions

655
00:35:04,110 --> 00:35:06,969
Speaker 3: to send them away with her into the afterlife, he

656
00:35:07,050 --> 00:35:11,370
Speaker 3: forgot to burn one of her favorite sandals, a gilt sandal.

657
00:35:11,940 --> 00:35:14,780
Speaker 3: which was lost under a chest. So he burned the

658
00:35:14,820 --> 00:35:16,710
Speaker 3: left sandal, but didn't burn the right.

659
00:35:16,570 --> 00:35:17,870
Speaker 4: Sandal or the other way around.

660
00:35:18,750 --> 00:35:22,030
Speaker 3: And then while she's describing this, a puppy dog barks

661
00:35:22,130 --> 00:35:25,779
Speaker 3: at her and then she disappears. It's specified it's a

662
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 3: Maltese dog. And so Eucrates says he looked under the

663
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 3: chest and he found the other sandal and he burned

664
00:35:32,780 --> 00:35:34,260
Speaker 3: it just as she had asked.

665
00:35:34,460 --> 00:35:36,710
Speaker 4: And there you go. That's proof. Ghosts are real.

666
00:35:37,969 --> 00:35:42,209
Speaker 3: And then Tycheides notes that somebody else enters the house

667
00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:44,950
Speaker 3: right after the story. The person who enters the house

668
00:35:45,210 --> 00:35:51,350
Speaker 3: is Eregnotus, the Pythagorean, whom Tycheides describes as having long

669
00:35:51,450 --> 00:35:55,149
Speaker 3: hair and a majestic face with a reputation for being

670
00:35:55,210 --> 00:35:58,990
Speaker 3: both holy and wise. So you're like, OK, the really

671
00:35:59,090 --> 00:36:02,870
Speaker 3: smart guy has come into the house now. And Tycheides

672
00:36:03,070 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 3: is relieved. He says to himself, quote, there now. A

673
00:36:07,300 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 3: broad ax has come to hand to use against their lies.

674
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 3: The wise men will stop their mouths when they tell

675
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:19,790
Speaker 3: such prodigious yarns. So the philosopher asks Eucrates about his illness.

676
00:36:20,450 --> 00:36:23,750
Speaker 3: And then he's like, hey, it seemed when I came in,

677
00:36:23,790 --> 00:36:25,010
Speaker 3: there was a debate happening.

678
00:36:25,070 --> 00:36:26,670
Speaker 4: I love debates. What was it about?

679
00:36:27,410 --> 00:36:30,989
Speaker 3: And Eucrates explains, he says that they were all trying

680
00:36:31,030 --> 00:36:35,540
Speaker 3: to convince Tycheides, quote, that spirits and phantoms exist. and

681
00:36:35,580 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 3: that souls of dead men go about above ground and

682
00:36:38,739 --> 00:36:43,500
Speaker 3: appear to whomsoever they will. Tycheides, after this, becomes embarrassed,

683
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,740
Speaker 3: and he lowers his head out of respect for the Pythagorean.

684
00:36:47,460 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 3: And then the Pythagorean weighs in. Erichnotus says he thinks

685
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,690
Speaker 3: he may understand the crux of the disagreement. Here's how

686
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:59,009
Speaker 3: he's going to sort it out. Quote, Perhaps, Eucrates, he said,

687
00:36:59,410 --> 00:37:03,070
Speaker 3: Tycheides means that only the ghosts of those who died

688
00:37:03,130 --> 00:37:06,830
Speaker 3: by violence will. For example, if a man hanged himself

689
00:37:06,969 --> 00:37:09,930
Speaker 3: or had his head cut off or was crucified or

690
00:37:09,969 --> 00:37:13,190
Speaker 3: departed life in some similar way, and that those of

691
00:37:13,250 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 3: men who died a natural death do not. If that

692
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,740
Speaker 3: is what he means, we cannot altogether reject what he says.

693
00:37:21,180 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 3: And then another guy at the house, this guy named Dinomachus,

694
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,020
Speaker 3: is like, no, Eregnotus, you've got it all wrong. He

695
00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:30,819
Speaker 3: is so much worse than that. He says ghosts don't

696
00:37:30,940 --> 00:37:36,010
Speaker 3: exist at all. And Aragnotus cannot believe it. He turns

697
00:37:36,070 --> 00:37:39,330
Speaker 3: to Tycheides with a sour look on his face, and

698
00:37:39,390 --> 00:37:42,270
Speaker 3: he's like, how can you not believe in ghosts? Everybody

699
00:37:42,310 --> 00:37:46,009
Speaker 3: sees ghosts. Everybody knows ghosts exist. So this is not

700
00:37:46,070 --> 00:37:48,569
Speaker 3: going the way Tycheides expected. He thought he was just

701
00:37:48,610 --> 00:37:51,930
Speaker 3: having a really smart, powerful ally walk into this argument.

702
00:37:52,010 --> 00:37:57,029
Speaker 3: And instead, now the wise Pythagorean is making him look

703
00:37:57,050 --> 00:38:01,109
Speaker 3: a fool. So, still showing deference to the great man,

704
00:38:01,190 --> 00:38:04,130
Speaker 3: Tychides says that he would believe in ghosts if he

705
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:07,770
Speaker 3: could see one himself, but he never has. And so

706
00:38:07,830 --> 00:38:10,009
Speaker 3: here's where the haunted house comes in. And now I'm

707
00:38:10,030 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 3: going to read from the text, picking up with Eregnotus' reply. Quote, Come,

708
00:38:15,540 --> 00:38:18,959
Speaker 3: said he, if ever you go to Corinth, ask where

709
00:38:19,020 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 3: the house of Eubatides is, and when it is pointed

710
00:38:22,420 --> 00:38:26,180
Speaker 3: out to you beside Cornell Grove, enter. and say to

711
00:38:26,219 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 3: the doorman Tibius that you should like to see where

712
00:38:29,420 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 3: the Pythagorean Eregnotus exhumed the spirit and drove it away,

713
00:38:34,140 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 3: making the house habitable from that time on. And note

714
00:38:39,060 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 3: that this still would not meet Tycheides' standard of seeing

715
00:38:43,219 --> 00:38:46,250
Speaker 3: a ghost himself, but instead it would be travel a

716
00:38:46,290 --> 00:38:49,750
Speaker 3: great distance to Corinth to see a house where Eregnotus

717
00:38:49,790 --> 00:38:54,420
Speaker 3: did something awesome. So then Eregnotus backs up and.

718
00:38:54,380 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 4: He tells the whole story.

719
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 3: He says of the house, quote, It was uninhabitable for

720
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 3: a long time because of terrors. Whenever anyone took up

721
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,580
Speaker 3: his abode in it, he fled in panic at once,

722
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,819
Speaker 3: chased out by a fearful, terrifying phantom. So it was

723
00:39:09,930 --> 00:39:12,770
Speaker 3: falling in and the roof was tumbling down, and there

724
00:39:12,790 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 3: was nobody at all who had the courage to enter it.

725
00:39:16,330 --> 00:39:18,830
Speaker 3: When I heard all this, I took my books. I

726
00:39:18,870 --> 00:39:22,150
Speaker 3: have a great number of Egyptian works about such matters.

727
00:39:22,690 --> 00:39:25,810
Speaker 3: and went into the house at bedtime, although my host

728
00:39:25,989 --> 00:39:28,609
Speaker 3: tried to dissuade me, and all but held me when

729
00:39:28,630 --> 00:39:31,700
Speaker 3: he learned where I was going. into misfortune with my

730
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:37,230
Speaker 3: eyes open, he thought. But taking a lamp, I went

731
00:39:37,310 --> 00:39:40,470
Speaker 3: in alone. In the largest room I put down the light,

732
00:39:40,610 --> 00:39:43,770
Speaker 3: and was reading peacefully, seated on the ground, when the

733
00:39:43,850 --> 00:39:47,149
Speaker 3: spirit appeared, thinking that he was setting upon a man

734
00:39:47,190 --> 00:39:50,450
Speaker 3: of the common sort, and expecting to affright me as

735
00:39:50,489 --> 00:39:54,290
Speaker 3: he had the others, he was squalid and long-haired and

736
00:39:54,370 --> 00:39:58,130
Speaker 3: blacker than the dark. Standing over me, he made attempts

737
00:39:58,230 --> 00:40:01,430
Speaker 3: upon me, attacking me from all sides to see if

738
00:40:01,469 --> 00:40:04,170
Speaker 3: he could get the best of me anywhere, and turning

739
00:40:04,230 --> 00:40:07,930
Speaker 3: now into a dog, now into a bull or a lion.

740
00:40:08,450 --> 00:40:12,790
Speaker 3: But I brought into play my most frightful imprecation, speaking

741
00:40:12,850 --> 00:40:17,379
Speaker 3: the Egyptian language, pent him up in a certain corner

742
00:40:17,489 --> 00:40:21,180
Speaker 3: of a dark room, and laid him. Then, having observed

743
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 3: where he went down, I slept for the rest of

744
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,959
Speaker 3: the night. In the morning, when everybody had given up hope,

745
00:40:27,340 --> 00:40:30,219
Speaker 3: and expected to find me dead like the others, I

746
00:40:30,300 --> 00:40:33,280
Speaker 3: came forth to the surprise of all, and went to

747
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:37,300
Speaker 3: Eubatides with the good tidings that he could now inhabit

748
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,500
Speaker 3: his house, which was purged and free from terrors. So,

749
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,540
Speaker 3: taking him along, and many of the others too, they

750
00:40:44,580 --> 00:40:47,650
Speaker 3: went with us, because the thing was so amazing, I

751
00:40:47,710 --> 00:40:50,209
Speaker 3: led them to the place where I had seen that

752
00:40:50,250 --> 00:40:53,029
Speaker 3: the spirit had gone down and told them to take

753
00:40:53,130 --> 00:40:56,970
Speaker 3: picks and shovels and dig. When they did so, there

754
00:40:57,030 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 3: was found buried about six feet deep a moldering body

755
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,879
Speaker 3: of which only the bones lay together in order. We

756
00:41:03,940 --> 00:41:07,220
Speaker 3: exhumed and buried it, and the house from that time

757
00:41:07,340 --> 00:41:09,410
Speaker 3: ceased to be troubled by the phantoms.

758
00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:14,150
Speaker 2: Nice. I really imagine this character as being more in

759
00:41:14,210 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 2: line with... Christopher Lee from The Devil Rides Out, you know? Oh, perfect.

760
00:41:20,020 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: Kind of a pompous authority on occult matters.

761
00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:29,240
Speaker 3: And that is exactly, clearly he is being parodied by

762
00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:32,890
Speaker 3: Lucian here. Like Lucian is poking fun at this great

763
00:41:32,950 --> 00:41:36,710
Speaker 3: wise Pythagorean who shows up to, you know, boast of

764
00:41:36,770 --> 00:41:39,690
Speaker 3: his great deeds and of his piety and bravery.

765
00:41:39,730 --> 00:41:41,710
Speaker 4: But actually this guy is a windbag.

766
00:41:41,730 --> 00:41:41,810
Speaker 1: Yeah.

767
00:41:42,650 --> 00:41:46,460
Speaker 3: So I notice immediately a lot of similarities to the

768
00:41:46,500 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 3: story told in Pliny's letter about the philosopher Athena Doris.

769
00:41:50,380 --> 00:41:55,150
Speaker 3: So it's almost the same story in most details, but

770
00:41:55,190 --> 00:41:57,630
Speaker 3: I will note a few differences. But the similar details

771
00:41:57,730 --> 00:42:01,150
Speaker 3: are old house haunted by a phantom. Nobody has the

772
00:42:01,190 --> 00:42:04,049
Speaker 3: courage to enter, let alone live there. And then the

773
00:42:04,110 --> 00:42:08,169
Speaker 3: brave philosopher or wise man goes in by himself. Sits

774
00:42:08,230 --> 00:42:11,390
Speaker 3: through the night reading. Here's a slight difference. Athena Doris

775
00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:16,470
Speaker 3: was writing on tablets, whereas it has Eric notice here reading.

776
00:42:17,340 --> 00:42:20,860
Speaker 3: The spirit appears and begins trying to scare him, quote,

777
00:42:21,020 --> 00:42:24,180
Speaker 3: thinking he was sitting upon a man of the common sort.

778
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,900
Speaker 3: So he's like, you know, I'm too good for that.

779
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,940
Speaker 3: He describes the spirit as being squalid with long hair.

780
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 3: Pliny's ghost was squalid with a long beard. The philosopher

781
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,950
Speaker 3: is unafraid. He stands up to the ghost. He marks

782
00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:42,050
Speaker 3: the spot that the ghost retreats to. The next morning,

783
00:42:42,110 --> 00:42:45,310
Speaker 3: the philosopher has the spot dug up, finds a skeleton

784
00:42:45,350 --> 00:42:48,469
Speaker 3: moldering in the ground. People remove the body and give

785
00:42:48,489 --> 00:42:50,969
Speaker 3: it a proper burial, and the hauntings are brought to

786
00:42:51,010 --> 00:42:57,260
Speaker 3: an end. However, there are differences. Unlike the story from Pliny,

787
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,860
Speaker 3: the ghost transforms into various animals. He turns into a lion,

788
00:43:01,900 --> 00:43:03,020
Speaker 3: a bull, and a dog.

789
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 4: Also different.

790
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 3: is that when Athenodorus in Pliny's story is confronted by

791
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 3: the ghost, he merely shows his lack of fear and

792
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,069
Speaker 3: then follows the ghost to its resting place so that

793
00:43:16,090 --> 00:43:18,710
Speaker 3: the bones can be found later. So the way that

794
00:43:18,790 --> 00:43:22,830
Speaker 3: Athenodorus prevails is by keeping a cool head, using clear

795
00:43:22,930 --> 00:43:27,190
Speaker 3: thinking and resolve, and solving the problem in a rational way.

796
00:43:28,050 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 3: Whereas Eregnotus solves the situation with knowledge of Egyptian esoterica,

797
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 3: Presumably he is using spells from an Egyptian magical papyrus

798
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:41,879
Speaker 3: or from, uh, like, you know, Greco.

799
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 4: Egyptian magical papyri.

800
00:43:43,100 --> 00:43:48,390
Speaker 3: Uh, so Eric notice engages in a wizard battle with

801
00:43:48,469 --> 00:43:52,690
Speaker 3: the ghost is similar to exorcism scenes in haunting movies today.

802
00:43:53,550 --> 00:43:58,230
Speaker 3: And this fits the, the different uses of the scene

803
00:43:58,290 --> 00:44:01,899
Speaker 3: in these two sources. Athena Doris is a stoic philosopher,

804
00:44:01,980 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 3: so he prevails by way of personal virtues like courage.

805
00:44:05,830 --> 00:44:09,830
Speaker 3: Eregnotus is being used in the story by Lucian to

806
00:44:10,170 --> 00:44:13,810
Speaker 3: make fun of superstition. So it makes sense that he

807
00:44:13,870 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 3: shows up with what he believes is knowledge of Egyptian magic.

808
00:44:18,940 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 3: And even through the translation, it feels very funny when

809
00:44:21,900 --> 00:44:26,550
Speaker 3: the Egyptian spells are first mentioned. It feels like somebody

810
00:44:26,670 --> 00:44:28,890
Speaker 3: implausibly claiming to know Kung Fu.

811
00:44:28,910 --> 00:44:35,260
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a good comparison, yeah. According to Felton,

812
00:44:35,739 --> 00:44:37,980
Speaker 2: the consensus seems to be that this is a direct

813
00:44:38,020 --> 00:44:41,140
Speaker 2: adaptation of Pliny the Younger's tale, though some scholars have

814
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:46,660
Speaker 2: disagreed on that. Essentially, the plot is the same, but

815
00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:49,850
Speaker 2: with these key differences in place. And yeah, this character

816
00:44:49,890 --> 00:44:52,810
Speaker 2: is just far more pompous. Instead of being a humble,

817
00:44:52,930 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 2: studious character, person who just kind of like just has

818
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,860
Speaker 2: an intellectual curiosity about the location. Oh, the rent is

819
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 2: low here. It said to be haunted. I want to

820
00:45:01,420 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: investigate further. No, this is a guy who's so ready

821
00:45:04,420 --> 00:45:06,899
Speaker 2: to confront the ghost that there's talk in the tail

822
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,460
Speaker 2: of him. They're trying to physically restrain him. Like, no,

823
00:45:09,500 --> 00:45:10,900
Speaker 2: you shouldn't go in there. You're going to die. And

824
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 2: he's like, no, I must. I, you know.

825
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 3: So don't hold me back, bro.

826
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. He's a pompous man looking to make a

827
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,700
Speaker 2: name for himself in confronting the ghost.

828
00:45:20,870 --> 00:45:24,630
Speaker 3: Yeah, so despite the differences, overall it is very similar

829
00:45:24,690 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 3: to Pliny's story. So similar that, yeah, so you said

830
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,340
Speaker 3: it's thought that this is based directly on Pliny's letter.

831
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:33,299
Speaker 4: I think that could be true.

832
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 3: Or I guess you could imagine that they are both

833
00:45:35,820 --> 00:45:39,420
Speaker 3: partaking of a common genre of story with expected tropes.

834
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we don't, again, we don't have all the

835
00:45:41,460 --> 00:45:43,779
Speaker 2: other stories that sort of populate the rest of the

836
00:45:43,820 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 2: haunted house tale ecology of the time.

837
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:46,970
Speaker 4: Exactly right.

838
00:45:48,030 --> 00:45:50,230
Speaker 3: So I wanted to mention a few more details from

839
00:45:50,270 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 3: the wrap up of the narrative in Lucian. So after

840
00:45:54,860 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 3: the story is told, Tychides narrates that when everybody at

841
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,259
Speaker 3: the house hears the story from the mouth of the

842
00:46:02,340 --> 00:46:06,580
Speaker 3: superhumanly wise Eregnotus, they think Tychides is even more a

843
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 3: fool for not believing in the obvious reality of ghosts.

844
00:46:10,820 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 3: And Tychides has been very respectful and deferential to the

845
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,460
Speaker 3: Pythagorean up to this point. But now finally he bites back.

846
00:46:19,060 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 3: He says, what is this, Eregnotus? Were you truth's only hope,

847
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,859
Speaker 3: just like the rest, full of moonshine and vain imaginings? Indeed,

848
00:46:27,969 --> 00:46:30,569
Speaker 3: the saying has come true. Our pot of gold has

849
00:46:30,630 --> 00:46:34,810
Speaker 3: turned out to be nothing but coals. And Eregnotus then

850
00:46:34,850 --> 00:46:37,930
Speaker 3: gets his feelings hurt. And he sort of responds by

851
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 3: doing something.

852
00:46:38,700 --> 00:46:39,049
Speaker 4: This is a.

853
00:46:39,050 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 3: Common move people make in conversations like this. He's like, oh,

854
00:46:43,219 --> 00:46:45,419
Speaker 3: I get it. You don't trust me. You don't think

855
00:46:45,460 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 3: I'm trustworthy. Well, if you don't trust me and you

856
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,060
Speaker 3: don't trust any of your dear friends in this room,

857
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,300
Speaker 3: and if we're so terrible, tell me who would you trust?

858
00:46:55,460 --> 00:46:57,930
Speaker 3: And then Tycheides says, well, I can think of one guy.

859
00:46:57,950 --> 00:47:02,350
Speaker 3: There's a wise man named Democritus of Abdera. And he

860
00:47:02,430 --> 00:47:04,790
Speaker 3: actually has something to say on the subject because one

861
00:47:04,830 --> 00:47:07,450
Speaker 3: time he went out to prove that there is no

862
00:47:07,489 --> 00:47:11,150
Speaker 3: such thing as a ghost. And so Tycheides tells the

863
00:47:11,170 --> 00:47:14,770
Speaker 3: story of Democritus. He says, quote, he shut himself up

864
00:47:14,930 --> 00:47:17,610
Speaker 3: in a tomb outside the gates, I guess outside the

865
00:47:17,630 --> 00:47:21,930
Speaker 3: city gates, and constantly wrote and composed there by night

866
00:47:22,010 --> 00:47:24,270
Speaker 3: and by day. Sounds like Athenodorus again.

867
00:47:24,290 --> 00:47:24,489
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

868
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 3: Some of the young fellows, wishing to annoy and alarm him,

869
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,020
Speaker 3: dressed themselves up like dead men in black robes and

870
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:36,580
Speaker 3: masks patterned after skulls, encircled him and danced round and

871
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 3: round in quick time, leaping into the air. Yet he

872
00:47:39,820 --> 00:47:42,810
Speaker 3: never feared their travesty nor looked up at them at all,

873
00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:46,890
Speaker 3: but as he wrote, said, Stop your foolery. So firmly

874
00:47:46,950 --> 00:47:49,589
Speaker 3: did he believe that souls are nothing after they have

875
00:47:49,630 --> 00:47:54,590
Speaker 3: gone out of their bodies. And then Eregnotus responds, He says,

876
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,710
Speaker 3: if that story is true, all it proves is that

877
00:47:57,830 --> 00:48:01,950
Speaker 3: the supposedly wise Democritus was not so wise after all,

878
00:48:02,469 --> 00:48:04,110
Speaker 3: all smart people believe in ghosts.

879
00:48:04,350 --> 00:48:06,890
Speaker 4: Everybody knows about ghosts. You're just being a fool.

880
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:10,850
Speaker 3: Uh, so I didn't keep reading too far after that

881
00:48:10,890 --> 00:48:12,790
Speaker 3: because it just goes on and on. But the next

882
00:48:12,890 --> 00:48:16,190
Speaker 3: thing is that Eric notice starts talking about all of

883
00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 3: his paranormal experiences in Egypt and where he claims that

884
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 3: he visited the Colossi of Mimnon, which we've done episodes

885
00:48:23,180 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 3: on before, you know, a popular spot for tourists in

886
00:48:26,860 --> 00:48:30,180
Speaker 3: ancient Rome. They would travel to Egypt to hear the

887
00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:34,020
Speaker 3: statues sing. There was a phenomenon where they would actually, like,

888
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,259
Speaker 3: make a sound. They would sing, was it like at

889
00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:39,770
Speaker 3: certain times of day, like around dawn or something?

890
00:48:40,190 --> 00:48:43,890
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was kind of a whistling sort of

891
00:48:43,930 --> 00:48:49,410
Speaker 2: a situation. And, you know, we can't, It eventually stops.

892
00:48:50,130 --> 00:48:52,500
Speaker 2: But there are a lot of good theories as to

893
00:48:52,540 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 2: why it was taking place to begin with. And of course,

894
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 2: none of them involve actual ghosts or gods or anything

895
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:57,180
Speaker 2: like that.

896
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 4: Right.

897
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,739
Speaker 3: But what Eric Noda says here is, quote, what I

898
00:49:00,780 --> 00:49:03,500
Speaker 3: heard from it was not a meaningless voice as in

899
00:49:03,540 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 3: the general experience of common people. Again, he's making the

900
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,510
Speaker 3: distinction like I'm very special. You know, I have special

901
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,670
Speaker 3: relationships with the supernatural, not in the general experience of

902
00:49:13,730 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 3: common people. Memnon himself actually opened his mouth and delivered

903
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,290
Speaker 3: me an oracle in seven verses. And if it were

904
00:49:21,330 --> 00:49:23,450
Speaker 3: not too much of a digression, I would have repeated

905
00:49:23,489 --> 00:49:25,899
Speaker 3: the very verses for you. But we don't have time

906
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:30,720
Speaker 3: for that right now. So anyway, that is how Lucian

907
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 3: of Samosata uses the haunted house story in the context

908
00:49:34,420 --> 00:49:37,720
Speaker 3: of this book about superstition. And I think it really

909
00:49:37,900 --> 00:49:41,860
Speaker 3: serves Lucian's purposes quite well, like the way that he

910
00:49:41,910 --> 00:49:45,250
Speaker 3: can pull in this story that's so similar to the

911
00:49:45,290 --> 00:49:50,150
Speaker 3: way Pliny tells it and make these little variations to

912
00:49:50,890 --> 00:49:56,790
Speaker 3: change the heroic Stoic philosopher into this, you know, pompous

913
00:49:56,870 --> 00:50:00,850
Speaker 3: windbag and fool, Eregnotus here, who's just using it to

914
00:50:00,890 --> 00:50:04,540
Speaker 3: both prove the existence of ghosts, which the author is

915
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,299
Speaker 3: making fun of as a belief, And also prove his own,

916
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,280
Speaker 3: you know, might and superiority and intellect, which also seems

917
00:50:12,340 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 3: to be in doubt.

918
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:13,620
Speaker 4: Yeah.

919
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,100
Speaker 2: And also seems to illustrate the great difficulty, if not impossibility,

920
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: of arguing this sort of matter with someone who believes

921
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 2: in it, you know?

922
00:50:22,380 --> 00:50:22,940
Speaker 4: Yeah.

923
00:50:22,980 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 2: Like that, I think, becomes very clear, at least in

924
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:26,620
Speaker 2: this snippet that we're discussing here.

925
00:50:27,090 --> 00:50:27,450
Speaker 4: Totally.

926
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,530
Speaker 2: So what we have here is essentially an exaggerated comedy

927
00:50:31,590 --> 00:50:34,810
Speaker 2: based on the haunted house tale structure, which again, the

928
00:50:34,890 --> 00:50:38,270
Speaker 2: author here and the readers would have been familiar with.

929
00:50:38,950 --> 00:50:41,230
Speaker 3: One thing I did not have time to look into deeply,

930
00:50:41,290 --> 00:50:43,700
Speaker 3: but I think would probably be interesting if I could

931
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,420
Speaker 3: understand the historical context a little better, like what it

932
00:50:47,500 --> 00:50:50,819
Speaker 3: meant to people at the time when Eric noticed is like,

933
00:50:51,060 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 3: I have Egyptian knowledge. You know, I've got these Egyptian

934
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 3: texts and I know Egyptian magic. that feels like a thing,

935
00:50:59,580 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 3: like a trope that's being invoked in the storytelling here.

936
00:51:02,420 --> 00:51:05,860
Speaker 3: Like that meant something culturally to these people.

937
00:51:06,500 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we know that the ancient Romans

938
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: certainly engaged in Egyptomania and were big into appropriating various

939
00:51:15,540 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 2: belief systems and certainly the culture and beliefs of ancient Egypt.

940
00:51:20,780 --> 00:51:24,220
Speaker 2: But yeah, I wonder how like self-aware, this kind of implies,

941
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,469
Speaker 2: like you're saying, it kind of implies a certain amount

942
00:51:26,510 --> 00:51:29,890
Speaker 2: of self-awareness about that, you know, uh, like, are you

943
00:51:29,950 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 2: really an ancient Egyptian sorcerer or you just get really

944
00:51:33,060 --> 00:51:34,980
Speaker 2: excited about some of these ideas and some of the

945
00:51:35,020 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 2: trappings of the thing, and you've just kind of like

946
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,500
Speaker 2: stolen it for your own pleasure here.

947
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

948
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,890
Speaker 3: And this may be a, uh, an incorrect modern gloss,

949
00:51:43,910 --> 00:51:46,049
Speaker 3: but that was also my reading. It was that like

950
00:51:46,090 --> 00:51:49,550
Speaker 3: how Egyptian really is this Egyptian stuff that Eric notice

951
00:51:49,590 --> 00:51:53,030
Speaker 3: claims to know, like, is he really speaking the Egyptian language?

952
00:51:53,469 --> 00:51:56,790
Speaker 3: are these genuinely Egyptian spells or did he get some,

953
00:51:57,070 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 3: you know, weird little booklet in Greece that says it's

954
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:00,720
Speaker 3: Egyptian magic?

955
00:52:00,940 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we can, we can look to the modern world.

956
00:52:02,580 --> 00:52:04,919
Speaker 2: We can certainly look to the, uh, sort of 20th

957
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,180
Speaker 2: century occultism. And of course there's a lot of adoption

958
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 2: and usage of ancient Egyptian concepts, you know, not all

959
00:52:12,410 --> 00:52:15,069
Speaker 2: in all cases in a foolish manner. Certainly. I mean, there's,

960
00:52:15,550 --> 00:52:19,630
Speaker 2: there's some particularly interesting ideas that are explored through, uh, uh,

961
00:52:20,570 --> 00:52:25,029
Speaker 2: through some of those, uh, those new occult, um, But

962
00:52:25,050 --> 00:52:27,690
Speaker 2: at the same time, there's also a lot of fraudsters

963
00:52:27,730 --> 00:52:29,109
Speaker 2: and all that are just sort of like grab some

964
00:52:29,150 --> 00:52:32,870
Speaker 2: trappings of ancient Egypt and use it to prop yourself up.

965
00:52:33,290 --> 00:52:35,549
Speaker 2: I think it's probably a tale as old as time. Yeah.

966
00:52:35,870 --> 00:52:40,860
Speaker 3: It feels like another kind of metal of occult authority

967
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 3: that you can pin on your chest. It's like I

968
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:45,380
Speaker 3: have mastery of the Egyptian arts.

969
00:52:45,700 --> 00:52:45,779
Speaker 2: Yeah.

970
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:45,900
Speaker 4: Yeah.

971
00:52:56,890 --> 00:52:58,930
Speaker 2: All right. Well, at this point, we've discussed the big three,

972
00:52:59,330 --> 00:53:02,969
Speaker 2: the big three stories, the haunted house stories of antiquity

973
00:53:03,050 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 2: that scholars come back to again and again and try

974
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: to sort of piece together and imagine what the rest

975
00:53:08,140 --> 00:53:12,379
Speaker 2: of the haunted house literary ecology and environment looked like.

976
00:53:13,540 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 2: But I do want to mention a couple of other

977
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,919
Speaker 2: tales that Ogden mentions that come later that also kind

978
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 2: of give us a little more room to think about

979
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,580
Speaker 2: the influence of these tales and the traditions that these

980
00:53:26,620 --> 00:53:31,980
Speaker 2: tales represent. Okay. So one is from 480 CE, composed

981
00:53:32,060 --> 00:53:34,580
Speaker 2: four years after the fall of the Western Roman Empire,

982
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 2: and Ogden describes it as a semi-Christianized version of the

983
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:43,210
Speaker 2: classic Greco-Romanand house tale. It is found in the life

984
00:53:43,290 --> 00:53:47,870
Speaker 2: of Saint Germanus by the cleric Constantius of Lyon in

985
00:53:47,910 --> 00:53:48,790
Speaker 2: what is now France.

986
00:53:49,210 --> 00:53:49,310
Speaker 1: Hmm.

987
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:54,870
Speaker 2: The story concerns the Roman cleric, Germanus, who is traveling

988
00:53:55,050 --> 00:53:56,710
Speaker 2: with some clerk. He's not by himself. He has some

989
00:53:56,750 --> 00:53:59,230
Speaker 2: clerks with him. He's traveling on a winter's day, so

990
00:53:59,290 --> 00:54:02,310
Speaker 2: it's cold. They're all hungry. They haven't eaten all day.

991
00:54:02,530 --> 00:54:05,970
Speaker 2: The sun is starting to set. And what do they

992
00:54:06,500 --> 00:54:09,740
Speaker 2: happen to come across? They come across a rundown house.

993
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 2: It's half ruined. It's long unoccupied. Seems better than sleeping

994
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 2: out in the cold. So he decides, yes, we will

995
00:54:16,980 --> 00:54:21,180
Speaker 2: bed down here, despite the fact that that farther up

996
00:54:21,219 --> 00:54:24,739
Speaker 2: the road, two old men gave him stern warnings about

997
00:54:24,780 --> 00:54:27,140
Speaker 2: this place, telling him that it was, in fact, haunted.

998
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,950
Speaker 3: This is funny, again, in how similar it is to

999
00:54:31,230 --> 00:54:33,489
Speaker 3: later haunting stories. This could be like the setup of

1000
00:54:33,530 --> 00:54:34,970
Speaker 3: a 20th century ghost movie.

1001
00:54:35,690 --> 00:54:38,770
Speaker 2: Yeah, in fact, it is. Weird How Cinema fans might

1002
00:54:38,810 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 2: remember our episode on 1987's A Chinese Ghost Story, which

1003
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 2: itself was based on a particular tale from Tales... from

1004
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,860
Speaker 2: a Chinese studio by Qing Dynasty scholar and weird tale

1005
00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:55,710
Speaker 2: collector Pusong Ling, who lived 1640 through 1715, particularly the story,

1006
00:54:55,730 --> 00:54:59,750
Speaker 2: The Magic Sword in the Magic Bag. Very similar setup,

1007
00:54:59,810 --> 00:55:03,430
Speaker 2: except it's like a haunted temple, you know, liminal space,

1008
00:55:03,830 --> 00:55:08,390
Speaker 2: supernatural beings. I don't think that there's much to connect

1009
00:55:08,430 --> 00:55:10,610
Speaker 2: the two beyond that. Like, I'm not saying that one

1010
00:55:10,650 --> 00:55:12,710
Speaker 2: is inspired by the other or anything like that. There

1011
00:55:12,730 --> 00:55:16,300
Speaker 2: seems to be, you know, within Chinese tradition, traditions, there's

1012
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 2: this entirely sort of separate haunted house tradition. And in fact,

1013
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 2: Pusong Ling has a story in that collection called, in translation,

1014
00:55:24,540 --> 00:55:27,420
Speaker 2: The Haunted House, which is a sort of telling of

1015
00:55:27,660 --> 00:55:32,020
Speaker 2: a Lilliputian hallucination experienced with a perceived chill in the air.

1016
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 2: But otherwise, it's like, you know, rather different from what

1017
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,089
Speaker 2: we would think of as a haunted house story in

1018
00:55:38,570 --> 00:55:40,190
Speaker 2: antiquity or in Western traditions.

1019
00:55:40,730 --> 00:55:41,540
Speaker 4: Well, Yeah.

1020
00:55:41,620 --> 00:55:44,060
Speaker 3: I mean, all I meant by the comparison in this

1021
00:55:44,100 --> 00:55:48,620
Speaker 3: case of the story of Germanus is just that very

1022
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:50,399
Speaker 3: often you have a story of somebody buys a house

1023
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 3: or moves into a house and it's haunted. Those are

1024
00:55:52,340 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 3: the ones we've been talking about already, but this is

1025
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 3: the other big variation. Somebody's traveling, there's bad weather, they

1026
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:00,259
Speaker 3: have to find a place to stay for the night.

1027
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 3: And so they go into an old abandoned seeming house

1028
00:56:03,300 --> 00:56:05,930
Speaker 3: or invited into an old house and it turns out

1029
00:56:05,969 --> 00:56:06,470
Speaker 3: it's haunted.

1030
00:56:06,850 --> 00:56:10,210
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, exactly. We see it time and time again.

1031
00:56:10,250 --> 00:56:12,770
Speaker 2: So in this case, though, Germanus, he's not afraid. He's

1032
00:56:12,810 --> 00:56:15,150
Speaker 2: a wise man. He's a cleric. He sets up in

1033
00:56:15,230 --> 00:56:18,489
Speaker 2: one of the more intact rooms and soon falls to

1034
00:56:18,550 --> 00:56:21,270
Speaker 2: sleep as one of his clerks continues to read aloud

1035
00:56:21,310 --> 00:56:23,590
Speaker 2: from some holy book. You know, you didn't have a

1036
00:56:23,610 --> 00:56:25,589
Speaker 2: white noise machine, so you just had your clerk just

1037
00:56:25,610 --> 00:56:29,219
Speaker 2: do some holy readings while he slept, I guess. While

1038
00:56:29,260 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 2: he's sleeping, the ghost storms in in a terrible form.

1039
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,580
Speaker 2: But Germanus awakens and he rebukes the ghost in the

1040
00:56:36,620 --> 00:56:38,660
Speaker 2: name of Christ and forcing it to take on a

1041
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,980
Speaker 2: more agreeable form and this is something that is also

1042
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,860
Speaker 2: a big trope in ghost stories in general and in

1043
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 2: haunted house stories that the ghost has like a terrible

1044
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,259
Speaker 2: form and then a form that you can sort of

1045
00:56:51,300 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 2: maybe negotiate with yeah we see that in everything we

1046
00:56:55,780 --> 00:56:59,150
Speaker 2: even see that in the ring right like sometimes the

1047
00:56:59,170 --> 00:57:03,590
Speaker 2: little girl is definitely horrifying other times just terribly spooky.

1048
00:57:04,670 --> 00:57:06,590
Speaker 2: And then maybe it's more pronounced in other ghost stories

1049
00:57:06,630 --> 00:57:08,509
Speaker 2: where there's kind of like the sympathetic version of the

1050
00:57:08,570 --> 00:57:09,870
Speaker 2: ghost and then the frightful version.

1051
00:57:10,210 --> 00:57:12,730
Speaker 3: Yeah, she has her merely creepy form and then her

1052
00:57:12,770 --> 00:57:14,070
Speaker 3: demonic killing form.

1053
00:57:14,410 --> 00:57:14,629
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1054
00:57:15,610 --> 00:57:19,790
Speaker 2: So Germanus, yeah, he's not having any of this with

1055
00:57:19,810 --> 00:57:23,710
Speaker 2: the terrible form. And then he gets the ghost to

1056
00:57:23,770 --> 00:57:27,230
Speaker 2: take on this more agreeable form and then questions it.

1057
00:57:27,330 --> 00:57:30,990
Speaker 2: What's the deal here? So it's basically like, you know,

1058
00:57:31,930 --> 00:57:34,490
Speaker 2: We were criminals in life. We were not properly buried.

1059
00:57:35,230 --> 00:57:38,090
Speaker 2: And our chain bodies are buried underneath some rubble in

1060
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 2: this building. So Germanus gets some townsfolk to come dig

1061
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 2: out the rubble. He doesn't do it himself. He has

1062
00:57:43,580 --> 00:57:45,940
Speaker 2: some folks from in town do it. They find the

1063
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,900
Speaker 2: chain bodies. They unchain them. They clothe them in linen.

1064
00:57:49,140 --> 00:57:51,340
Speaker 2: And they give them a proper burial with a prayer

1065
00:57:51,620 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 2: of intercession. And Ogden points out that this is kind

1066
00:57:54,820 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 2: of a hybrid tale. So Christian belief officially decreed that

1067
00:57:58,220 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: all souls are confined beneath the earth until the day

1068
00:58:00,500 --> 00:58:05,620
Speaker 2: of resurrection. So it's presented here that it's unconfessed sins

1069
00:58:05,660 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 2: that are seemingly holding the ghost back. Proper burial plus

1070
00:58:09,340 --> 00:58:12,460
Speaker 2: a prayer solves the haunting, and we're told that people

1071
00:58:12,500 --> 00:58:13,860
Speaker 2: live there happily to this day.

1072
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 4: Interesting.

1073
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's like theology may rule out some elements

1074
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,470
Speaker 2: of your traditional ghost story. You just got to find

1075
00:58:22,510 --> 00:58:25,110
Speaker 2: some wiggle room in there to allow it to continue

1076
00:58:25,150 --> 00:58:27,490
Speaker 2: to take place with, at least within the story, the

1077
00:58:27,530 --> 00:58:31,650
Speaker 2: full blessings of Christian theology. All right, Ogden also discusses

1078
00:58:31,730 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 2: a haunted house in the tale, in the dialogues of

1079
00:58:34,380 --> 00:58:36,610
Speaker 2: Gregory the Great. I believe this is Pope Gregory I,

1080
00:58:36,580 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 2: 540 through 604 CE. And it's basically the Lucian tale

1081
00:58:41,700 --> 00:58:45,420
Speaker 2: all over again, but the ghost has been substituted with

1082
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:51,310
Speaker 2: a devil or even the devil. So again, a Christianization

1083
00:58:51,390 --> 00:58:52,770
Speaker 2: of it. Like we can't really have a ghost in there,

1084
00:58:52,790 --> 00:58:55,250
Speaker 2: but we can have a devil or the devil popping

1085
00:58:55,350 --> 00:58:58,010
Speaker 2: up and being the enemy of the tale. And in

1086
00:58:58,050 --> 00:59:02,620
Speaker 2: this tale, Darius, Bishop of Milan, stays in the house,

1087
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 2: you know, same thing, stay in the house overnight, drives

1088
00:59:05,780 --> 00:59:09,510
Speaker 2: out the devil by insulting him, just like talking smack

1089
00:59:09,890 --> 00:59:12,060
Speaker 2: to the devil and saying like, ah, you think you're

1090
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:15,220
Speaker 2: so bad, you know, you fell from heaven and so forth.

1091
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,870
Speaker 2: And then this drives the devil away and makes it

1092
00:59:18,990 --> 00:59:21,330
Speaker 2: once again possible for the faithful to live here again,

1093
00:59:21,370 --> 00:59:22,570
Speaker 2: and they do so to this day.

1094
00:59:23,410 --> 00:59:28,010
Speaker 3: Popular like in-your-head-shower argument among bishops. Like, here's what I'd

1095
00:59:28,070 --> 00:59:28,830
Speaker 3: say to the devil.

1096
00:59:29,050 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We see this time and time again, too. Yeah,

1097
00:59:35,300 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 2: what kind of insults do you have? Don't let old

1098
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:40,940
Speaker 2: pitch or old Satan get the better of you. You've

1099
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:42,620
Speaker 2: got all the dirt on him. You know what he's about.

1100
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 3: Did you say, or did I just see in the

1101
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:47,860
Speaker 3: notes that this tale is set in Corinth?

1102
00:59:48,340 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 4: It is, yeah.

1103
00:59:49,490 --> 00:59:51,830
Speaker 2: And I don't truly know what to make of that

1104
00:59:51,850 --> 00:59:54,170
Speaker 2: but i know we were just talking about how like

1105
00:59:54,210 --> 00:59:57,230
Speaker 2: important the athens setting uh was in some of these

1106
00:59:57,550 --> 01:00:01,620
Speaker 2: tales uh certainly corinth pops up so this this is

1107
01:00:01,660 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 2: another corinth haunted house.

1108
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 3: Story yeah i just mentioned that because so while we

1109
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 3: said we didn't think athens had a reputation as being

1110
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,470
Speaker 3: particularly haunted i i'm not an expert on this but

1111
01:00:12,490 --> 01:00:16,630
Speaker 3: i think it's possible maybe corinth did have a reputation

1112
01:00:16,690 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 3: as being more haunted than other places uh Not just

1113
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,940
Speaker 3: because that's the setting of the Eregnotus story in Lucian.

1114
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,700
Speaker 3: It just seems like generally it was a place where

1115
01:00:26,740 --> 01:00:29,860
Speaker 3: there were a lot of kind of ghost and monster stories.

1116
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 2: Okay, so maybe it is more of the sort of

1117
01:00:32,900 --> 01:00:37,220
Speaker 2: the Salem, right? Of the ancient world. Interesting.

1118
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,140
Speaker 3: Like I said, I'm not totally sure about that, but

1119
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,660
Speaker 3: maybe that's something for us to come back and revisit sometime.

1120
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:47,210
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leave some room for further investigation. Likewise,

1121
01:00:48,030 --> 01:00:50,950
Speaker 2: we're not going to do this in this journey. But

1122
01:00:51,030 --> 01:00:53,290
Speaker 2: I think in the future, maybe another Halloween season, we

1123
01:00:53,330 --> 01:00:55,740
Speaker 2: might come back and talk about haunted house stories in

1124
01:00:55,760 --> 01:01:00,580
Speaker 2: the Chinese and Japanese traditions and in other traditions. Because, yeah,

1125
01:01:00,660 --> 01:01:04,620
Speaker 2: it's not just ancient Greek and Rome that have these

1126
01:01:04,660 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 2: tales of haunted houses. It's not just European, Victorian, and

1127
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 2: Gothic tales. These pop up all over the world. And

1128
01:01:11,860 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 2: so I think it would be fun to zero in

1129
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:17,270
Speaker 2: on them some more. And, of course— Obviously, we have

1130
01:01:17,310 --> 01:01:21,530
Speaker 2: ghost stories of all sorts all over the world. And,

1131
01:01:21,590 --> 01:01:23,700
Speaker 2: you know, we're always talking about those on the show.

1132
01:01:25,260 --> 01:01:26,560
Speaker 2: All right. Well, we're going to go ahead and wrap

1133
01:01:26,580 --> 01:01:28,060
Speaker 2: this one up. But we'd love to hear from you

1134
01:01:28,140 --> 01:01:34,440
Speaker 2: out there. What ghost stories, ancient or contemporary, did these

1135
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 2: episodes make you think about? Particular details that stand out

1136
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,650
Speaker 2: to you, particular stories, particular movies and so forth. Write in.

1137
01:01:42,710 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 2: We would love to hear from you. And if you

1138
01:01:45,620 --> 01:01:47,780
Speaker 2: actually have an encounter with some sort of a haunted

1139
01:01:47,860 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 2: house and you wanted to discuss your experience, you know,

1140
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 2: in an open to skepticism way, then write in. We'd

1141
01:01:55,140 --> 01:01:57,660
Speaker 2: love to hear from you on that as well. Likewise,

1142
01:01:57,720 --> 01:01:59,220
Speaker 2: as is always the case, if you have something you

1143
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 2: want to share with us and you don't want us

1144
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:03,580
Speaker 2: to read it on the show in a future listener

1145
01:02:03,620 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 2: mail episode, just say that that is the case or

1146
01:02:06,340 --> 01:02:08,610
Speaker 2: that you want it to be anonymous, that sort of thing.

1147
01:02:09,090 --> 01:02:13,220
Speaker 2: We're always happy to honor those requests. Totally. Just a

1148
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 2: reminder that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a

1149
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:17,990
Speaker 2: science and culture podcast. Let's see, on Wednesdays we do

1150
01:02:18,010 --> 01:02:21,150
Speaker 2: a shorter episode. On Fridays we do a movie episode,

1151
01:02:21,170 --> 01:02:24,170
Speaker 2: Weird House Cinema. And we just ask that wherever you

1152
01:02:24,190 --> 01:02:26,970
Speaker 2: get the podcast, be it the audio forum on your

1153
01:02:26,990 --> 01:02:30,950
Speaker 2: various audio providers, or if you're watching us on Netflix,

1154
01:02:30,970 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 2: because Netflix is where you get to see the video

1155
01:02:33,180 --> 01:02:36,600
Speaker 2: of our show, just rate, review, subscribe. On Netflix, give

1156
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:39,340
Speaker 2: us two thumbs up. Ask to be reminded about new episodes.

1157
01:02:39,380 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 2: All of that helps us out.

1158
01:02:40,950 --> 01:02:44,530
Speaker 4: Huge thanks, as always, to our excellent audio producer, J.J. Posway.

1159
01:02:44,950 --> 01:02:46,390
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1160
01:02:46,430 --> 01:02:48,980
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1161
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:50,980
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1162
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com.

1163
01:03:03,350 --> 01:03:05,810
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1164
01:03:06,150 --> 01:03:09,470
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1165
01:03:09,510 --> 01:03:11,850
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