1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Finally will there be justice 2 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: in the murderers of Maggie and Paul Murdog. Months and 3 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: months have passed seemingly with no end in sight. But 4 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: as we go to air, a jury is being impaneled. 5 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: It's a long and arduous process. Nine hundred girars have 6 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: been called to the court house. Typically in a case 7 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: like this you can make do with sixty eighty one 8 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: hundred girars to get a jury of twelve, but not 9 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: so here the process happening as we speak. I mean it. 10 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: See Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being 11 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and Serious XM one eleven. 12 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: Amidst all of the hoopla surrounding the College and County 13 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: Courthouse right now, one headline says the star attraction is 14 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: the elephant ear? Are the elephant ears that are being 15 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: sold outside? You know those big pieces of dough covered 16 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: with sugar and cinnamon you get at a fair, the 17 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:23,839 Speaker 1: state fair. Um food trucks arriving media there. Some people 18 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: would call it a circus, but inside that courtroom it's 19 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: a whole different thing. Where did the whole thing start? 20 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: Right here? Teenty one forty seven Mozel Road. I think 21 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: the police my wife and Tom Scot. Okay, you said, sir, 22 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: you said, forty one forty seven Mozel Rod in Olican 23 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: yea road with me? Okay, okay, college And I have 24 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: an Alex Murdoch on the line, caller from forty one 25 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: forty seven moz Road. He's advising that his wife's and 26 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: child was shot. Okay, forty one forty seven Mozelle Road. 27 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: I've been up to it now is bad? Okay? Okay? 28 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: And are they breathing? No, ma'am okay. And he said 29 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: it's your wife and your son, my wife and my scorn. 30 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: Are they in a vehicle? No, ma'am, their own ground 31 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: out at my kennel. If he is lying, and I 32 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: believe he is, he is making me sick and may 33 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: he rot in hell now. Of course, everyone in that 34 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: our country at least has presumed innocent, a proven guilty 35 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: beyond a reasonable doubt, not a fantastical possibility, but beyond 36 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt. But I believe he's lying. In that 37 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: nine one one called Meryl Street, move over, because Alex 38 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: Murdog got it all over you in that nine one 39 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: one call. If what I believe happened, really did happen. 40 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: We got an all star lineup to make sense of 41 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: what we know right now, what is happening in that 42 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: courtroom even as we speak, and we are coming to 43 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: you alive from the courthouse. An Emerson is with US 44 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: senior investigative reporter WCIV ABC. She is a host of 45 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: an award winning podcast, Unsolved South Carolina, The Murdoch Murders, 46 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: Money and Mystery. And Emerson there at the courthouse and warning, 47 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: you can hear the girard numbers being called out. The 48 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: jars are addressed only by their numbers. And Emerson, thank 49 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: you for being with us. Tell me what's happening right now. 50 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: We are in day two of jury selection. We are 51 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: really gaining speed right now, and like you said, you 52 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: can literally hear behind me. I'm in the media overflow room. 53 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: They put us at the Wildlife Center for all the 54 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: media just to give you an idea of the spaces 55 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: that we're in. So it is like a zoo a 56 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: little bit. As we get started with this trial. We're 57 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: on day two, so we have four panels of jury 58 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: possible of jurors to go through. Those panels are about 59 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:39,679 Speaker 1: we've estimated about eighty to ninety jurors. We've already flown 60 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: through three of these panels, which means we're going to 61 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: our last panel as we are talking right now. That's 62 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: what we're listening to as the jurors getting called by 63 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: their numbers and they're starting to whittle it down based 64 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 1: on a very important questionnaire that they sent out to 65 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: the jurors before this all started, and they were prepared 66 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: to answer these questions, and two of the big questions 67 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: they're asking besides you know, you know the murdocks, is 68 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: how have you gotten your information? Is it through the 69 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: podcast that we've been putting out, is it through local news, 70 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: national news, Nancy Grace. You know, we are seriously trying 71 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: to figure out if they can pull a jury that's 72 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: going to be fair and unbiased as best as they 73 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: can based on what they know. Yesterday, there was a 74 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,679 Speaker 1: very dramatic moment when they only had about fifty jurors 75 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: left in the first panel and they said, so, anybody 76 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: stand up if you part about this case, and the 77 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: entire jury panel stood up, well, well, you're exactly right, 78 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: and Emerson, take a listen to our friend Riley Miller 79 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: w JCL. As a jury selection began, Judge Clifton Newman 80 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: asked the first group of potential jurors if they had 81 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: heard about this case, if they had read about this case. 82 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: Every single one stood up during selection, Of course, is 83 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: the first order of business. Judge Newman's questions started simple, 84 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: what do you do for a living? Are you married 85 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: or single? And what does your spouse do? Then the 86 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: questions got more complicated. From Facebook groups to local news 87 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: to national news and documentaries. All potential jurors not surprisingly 88 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: shared how they knew about this double murder case. Well, 89 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not just there in South Carolina. People 90 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: all across the world know about this case, and they should. 91 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: Here's why, Alexander NBC. The nine one one call came 92 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: late Monday night. Officials say prominent South Carolina attorney Alex 93 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: Murdog came home last week and called police after discovering 94 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: his wife and son murdered. Fifty two year old Maggie 95 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: Murdoch and twenty two year old Paul Murdoch both shot 96 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: multiple times outside their home. According to investigators, it happened 97 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: in Islandtown, South Carolina, about ninety minutes outside of Charleston. 98 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: Now more than a week later, seeming little progress, no arrests, 99 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: no named suspect, and from police, no motive. In addition 100 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,119 Speaker 1: to Ann Emerson from w CIV joining us right there 101 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: at the courthouse, and you can hear the jars being 102 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: called by number high profile lawyer joining US trial lawyer 103 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: Mark Tate out of the Tate Law Group. He is 104 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: joining from Savannah, not too far away from this courthouse, 105 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: Mark Tate. This is not California where a jury selection 106 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: can take six weeks. I mean typically in a murder case, 107 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: and I don't mean a regular murder case, I mean 108 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: any murder case in the Southeast, a jury can be 109 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: struck two days, Max. Oh. Absolutely. You know the prosecutors 110 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: have in the typical murder case. You know, first of 111 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: all it's a guilty plea, but second of all of 112 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: it goes to trial. The prosecutors have their witnesses in 113 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: their back pocket, and they you know, the police officers 114 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: and investigators they see every single day. And there's not 115 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: a whole lot of difficult evidence, and there's certainly not 116 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: this kind of publicity. And like it or not, that 117 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: whole family was in the news long before the murders 118 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: and suicide attempts commenced, and everyone knew them, and everyone 119 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: has everybody up there in Hilton Head Island, Colleton County, 120 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: all those areas up there. They know who the guy 121 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: is and they're interested in the story. There are a 122 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: lot of people, believe it or not, who are scared 123 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: still of the Murdoch family. And it's going to be hard, 124 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: I think, to find someone who honestly can say that 125 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: they haven't formed opinions about the case. And you know 126 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: that's really the test, Nancy. The test is not whether 127 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: they've heard something about it. The test is whether they 128 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: can put aside anything that they've heard and an impartial 129 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: jury juror and not have formed any opinions prior to 130 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: hearing all the evidence. I think it's gonna be tough. Well, 131 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: you're right, Mark, Jay. The issue is not have you 132 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: heard about the case? I mean, you'd have to be 133 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: under a rock in the cave in another country, far 134 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: far away from the US not to have at least 135 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: heard something, whether it's stuck or not, about this case. 136 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: So it's not have you heard about it? It's can 137 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: you put aside anything you've heard and render a true 138 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: verdict based on the facts and evidence that you hear 139 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: in the courtroom. And I'm willing to bet practically everybody 140 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: I know would be able to promise they would base 141 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 1: their verdict or what they hear in the courtroom, because 142 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 1: what's been in the news so far, it's not evidence. 143 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: It's what journalists think, it's what they've deduced, it's what 144 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: has been filtered out to them. Guys, wan't you take 145 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: a listen to our cut one two four from WJCL 146 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: twenty two. Because notoriety or knowing the Murdoch family, it's 147 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: a double edge sword. Right before trial started, and that 148 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: includes jury selection. A portrait of a Murdog, a male 149 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: Murdoch like a great great grandpa, had to be taken 150 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: down out of the courtroom and it brings back memories 151 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: for me and I'm sure it does for you too, 152 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: Mark tap In most courtrooms they're surrounded by a bunch 153 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: of pictures, typically old white guys. Never seen a woman 154 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: up there. A bunch of old white guys, and they're 155 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: all judges. They're all judges that have served way way 156 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: way back. And I've been in the courtroom so much 157 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 1: I would finally like waiting on a jury to come 158 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: back would look at all of these and they're all 159 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: former judges. One of those had to be taken down 160 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: before the jurards came in because there was a Murdog relative. Hey, guys, 161 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: take a listen to Riley Miller. The Murdoch name was 162 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: once associated with power, were an influence, But attorney at 163 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: Justin Vamberg, who's representing the family of Kim Pinckney, one 164 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: of Alex's alleged financial victims, doesn't think the name will 165 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: help Eleik. Now, people are kind of over there and 166 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: they're like, you know, you had power that you abused 167 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: and the expense of some people who were in some 168 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: of the darkest days of their life. So now we 169 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: don't care. That's your last names Murdoch. Some of the 170 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: potential witnesses who could be called to testify in this 171 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: case include Elex's brothers, Randy and John Marvin Murdoch, as 172 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: well as his only surviving son, Buster Crime Stories with 173 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. You know, back to k Mark, Jay, what 174 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: did you mean that some people they actually still be 175 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: afraid of the Murloch family. Well, you know, I'm here 176 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: eighteen twenty miles from them. I've been practicing in Savannah 177 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: and trying cases here in Savannah forru and everywhere else. 178 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: Really for thirty plus years, I've had cases in which 179 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: I represented plaintiffs up in that neck of the woods, 180 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: and that family had significant power up there. And you know, 181 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: at one point, you know, the first mister Murdoch who 182 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: was the elected solicitor there in Colinin County. You know, 183 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: wonderful guy, fantastic reputation, sterling character. But as you know, 184 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: the generations move forward and power seems to be passed 185 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: down generation to generation, as if some sort of royal inheritance. 186 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: M R. Say, don't say royal inheritance to an American. Oh, yes, 187 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: because we don't like that. That's why we had to. 188 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: Let's see what that little thing was, that little skirmish, 189 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary War? Exactly right at all. I don't think 190 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: anybody does, anybody here in the studio like it when 191 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: power or money or fame or whatever is handed down 192 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: all the rest everybody else is scrapping to make a living. 193 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: And yet yet not less to you. Thank you Jackie 194 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: for the insight. But guys, we're in the middle of 195 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: jury selection and Ann Emerson is with us from w CIV. 196 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle dupre Lee, Reber, Chris Spires, doctor Bethany Marshall 197 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: all with us to make sense of what's happening right now. 198 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: And in the midst of all of this, there's a 199 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: new reveal. Take a listen our cut one two six 200 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: from Will Reeve. Now new details about what's ahead in 201 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: the trial. Prosecutors adding Google and Snapchat representatives to their 202 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: witness lists. Murdoch's son Paul reportedly sent a Snapchat video 203 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: to his friends just hours before his death. Meanwhile, the 204 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: defense filing emotion to try to block blood spatter evidence 205 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: from the trial, claiming authorities damaged Murdoch's T shirt during 206 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: the forensic testing process. The debate here is whether or 207 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: not they can actually rely on the blood spatter that 208 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: was found on his T shirt to indicate anything, because 209 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: there is some question as to whether or not it 210 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: was on the shirt due to life saving measures that 211 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: he took when he'd encountered the bodies, or whether it 212 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: was in fact from splatter from a gunshot wound. Okay, 213 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: let me just say this is a quickie to you, 214 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Debrie. I want you to think about this 215 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: and percolate. No, no, no, and no okay, because anybody 216 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: that knows about blood spatter, there is a you will 217 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: know a huge difference between a blood spatter marking and 218 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: a blood transfer. For instance, when the sheriffs took the 219 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: T shirt, if it touched something else, you can easily 220 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: tell that's a blood transfer, not a blood spatter. Just 221 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: think about if you take V eight and you throw 222 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: it on the wall, that's gonna look more like blood spatter, 223 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: not for instance, when you take a band aid all 224 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: a cut that looks like a transfer. Hold that thought. 225 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: I'm coming right back to you, but I'm completely captivated, 226 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: intrigued by the whole Google and not just Google, but 227 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: Snapchat development in the trial. What does it mean take 228 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: a less SNAr cut? One three three amiguil. The State 229 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: has filed a new motion and the Murdoch trial of 230 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,359 Speaker 1: Alec Murdoch requesting both a witness from Google and Snapchat 231 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: testify in the murder trial. The new filing shows that, 232 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: among other things, there is a video sent by Paul 233 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: Murdoch to several friends at seven fifty six that night, 234 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: the night of the murderers that is critical to the 235 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: state's case. Critical to the state's case, and they can 236 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: time it seven fifty six, and I've got to tell 237 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: you I know more about snapchatting than I ever wanted 238 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: to know, because the twins are constantly snapping people. And 239 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: for those of you here in the studio that don't know, 240 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: it's not texting a message, it is a picture. You 241 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: send them a picture, and then they have to send 242 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: you a picture. It's just a there's a snapchat etiquette. 243 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: We were talking about it just today on the way 244 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: to school. But away from that and onto this and 245 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: Emerson with me, wc Ivy tell me everything. What we're 246 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: hearing is this snapchat video, as we were hearing in 247 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: the report, came very close to when this timeline is occurring. 248 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: And it's incredibly important to note that this timeline has 249 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: shifted to some degree. You know, previously we were hearing 250 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: from Flood that the that these double murders occurred between 251 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: nine and nine thirty pm. We're now getting a broader 252 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: timeline from prosecutor. Okay An Emerson and Emerson and Emerson 253 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: two out of three people just said, what what what 254 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: does she say? Slow down? You know you're speaking to 255 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: us Mere Mortals and Emerson and we're trying to keep 256 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: up with you. Okay, what you say and listen if 257 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: you hear the judge say anything. I want to know 258 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: what he's saying. I want to hear everything. So please 259 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: go free to change the course of our discussion. But 260 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: back to the snapchat. I know, and I do. I've 261 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: got I've got one ear on the judge to see 262 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: if he has to stop for any reason, because we 263 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: have certainly seen a lot of stoppages along the way 264 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: in this already. What we know is that Paul had 265 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: been snapping with a friend and or several friends and 266 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: sending the snapchat out and as you said, kids are 267 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: all over this, so it was a very important timeline 268 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: that we need to pay attention to. Right now, we're 269 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: being told as of just the last few months, the 270 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: state has moved the timeline of when these murders occurred 271 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: between eight thirty and ten o'clock, So seven fifty six 272 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: is very close to this timeline. Now, as far as 273 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: what's on this video, that's what obviously everybody wants to know. 274 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: We do know about a previous video, and this is 275 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: where we're trying to make connections and see if their connection. 276 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: Is this the same video that they were talking about 277 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: where Paul was having this quote unquote just very light 278 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: conversation with Maggie and Alec his parents talking about a 279 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: dog in the kennels. Is this the same video? So 280 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: these are the kind of questions we still want answers 281 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: to because they didn't outline it in the filing. If Snapchat, 282 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: you know, I've talked to some tech experts on this, 283 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: Snapchat and Google because they're also looking at Google evidence 284 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: on location devices that were turned off. Google and Snapchat 285 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: are not witnesses that like to go up on the stamp. 286 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: I'll just say that's what we're told. The reps are 287 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: not going to be doing this willingly. Oh blah blah 288 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: blah blah. You know what, who wants to who do 289 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: you know typically that wants to get crowbarn out of 290 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 1: their home or office and go sit at the courthouse 291 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: for three or four days to testify and then get 292 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: a booty grilling by the other side, like you're up 293 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: there lying it's a Google or a Snapchat exec that 294 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: don't have a dog in the fight, that don't as 295 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: skin in the game, and they're gonna get roasted on 296 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: cross exam. Of course, they don't want to come that's 297 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: why we have things called subpoenas. If you don't come, 298 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: you're gonna land in jail. So I think you're absolutely right. 299 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: Ann Emerson. Hey, one thing you mentioned location device is 300 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: turned off. What do you mean by that? Well, that's 301 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: what we want to know that. You know, we're seeing 302 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: this filing come across that they want to Google a 303 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: rep to come and testify about why the location devices 304 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: at the scene of the crime were turned off. Oh, 305 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: I'm so happy. I' so happy. Sounds like somebody's pulling 306 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: a coburger. Remember how he cut his phone off, allegedly 307 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: cut his phone off or put it on airplane mode. 308 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: We saw that first recently in the Susan Susanne more 309 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: Few case. But wow, that's telling me a lot right there, 310 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: because you have to go deep dive into your device 311 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: to turn off location or put it on airplane mode. 312 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: What and and I'm coming right to you, Lee Reeber. 313 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: What ann Emerson, There was one other thing that we 314 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: noticed in this filing, and it came why at the 315 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: end of the filing, and it said that one of 316 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: the the experts it was actually coming out of Defense 317 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: because Defense actually shared pretty gruesome crime scene photos of 318 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: when the actual you know, what they saw right after 319 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of this. So we've actually gotten to 320 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: see our first photos from the crime scene. Wait a minute, 321 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: they showed that during for a dire jury selection. No no, no, 322 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: I'm in one of the filings in the Pretrael motion failings. 323 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: But the defense we got we got those crime scene photos, 324 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: so we were looking at that. Now what I've read 325 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: and I have to share it because I don't know 326 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: what this means exactly, but it looks like Paul's phone 327 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: was taken out of his pocket, and according to these 328 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: court filings, when that phone, when his cell phone was 329 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,719 Speaker 1: taken out of his back pocket, it was put on 330 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: top of his pocket. In the filing, it says that 331 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: was done by someone other than Paul, and I thought 332 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: that was interesting. That is very interesting because he's lying 333 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: there dead and somebody stages the scene and that's the 334 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: whole psychopathy right there as to whose stage the scene, 335 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: in other words, moved any evidence postmortem. But it also 336 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: said that there was blood on the inside of his 337 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: back pocket. Oh man, That means whoever picked the phone 338 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: up had blood on their hands when they reached into 339 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: his back pocket to pick up the exact on his pocket. 340 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: Are you talking about a dirt pocket back pocket his 341 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: back pants pocket? I thought you said it was taken 342 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: out of his back pocket and just placed on his 343 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: back pocket. That's that's what I raced on or in 344 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: his back pocket on Okay, you know this is reminding me. 345 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: It reminds me. Doctor Michelle Dupree, former forensic pathologists, medical examiner, 346 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, joining us from South Carolina. 347 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: This is her backyard, Doctor Dupree. I'm very curious about 348 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: the blood on the pocket and possibly blood on Paul's 349 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: cell phone, and it reminds me of the first time 350 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: I realized how significant blood spatter and blood evidence is. 351 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: I had a case where a woman was found naked, 352 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: that's important, in bed under the covers, and she had 353 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,160 Speaker 1: quote committed suicide, that's what her husband said, and and 354 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 1: she had shot herself in the head lying in bed naked. 355 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,719 Speaker 1: She committed suicide. Now you and I know all of that. 356 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: Scream's note, that's not what happened statistically. But then an 357 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: old trooper who had been on the Georgia State Patrol 358 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: actually for many many years, we were looking at the 359 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: sheets at the crime lab and we realized that there 360 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: was blood spatter under her pillow, which means she was shot. 361 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: And then someone placed her head on the pillow over 362 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: the blood spatter, and it was like an epiphany for 363 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: me to realize how significant blood spatter evidence is of 364 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: what it can prove jump in doctor Dupree exactly. And 365 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: so blood spatter can actually tell us so many things, 366 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: as you know, Nancy. And that's why I think this 367 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: sharp is very important because when we look at the sharp, 368 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: there are two supposed stains on the upper shoulders of 369 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: both arms that's up that you won't find that when 370 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: you're checking somebody's pulse or something like that and it's spattered. 371 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: It isn't a smear. It isn't something that's going to 372 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: be transferred. The other thing that I found really interesting 373 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: is that the timeline. I want to know how the 374 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: coroner are Sled or whomever determined the time of death. 375 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,959 Speaker 1: I mean, describe the scene for me. Was there pooling 376 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: of blood, was it dried, was there sindicongealed, was there 377 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: a film over it? What was the temperature of the 378 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: body where they wanted to touch? I mean, tell me 379 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: these things so that I know how you figured out 380 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: the time of death. Well, we know that Paul is 381 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: sending a snap a snapchat at about eight o'clock seven 382 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: fifty six, and the bodies were found around ten, so 383 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: we've got eight to ten o'clock. That's two hours. But 384 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: you and I've been going round and round and round 385 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: doctor Dupree about the state of the blood when the 386 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: bodies were found dried, still, wet, fresh, it was it 387 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: getting tacky. All of those things matter as to determining 388 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 1: time of death, which is extremely important to special guests 389 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: joining us. Lee Reber, mobile device forensic expert, CEO of 390 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: Oxygen Forensics, an author of Mobile Forensic Investigation and cash 391 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: this star of a podcast called Forensic Happy Hour. Okay, 392 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: I never thought i'd see those three words put together, 393 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: but they are, Lee Reber. I know you're holding back. 394 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: Hit me, hit me hard with everything you can tell 395 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: me about Snapchat, turning off location devices and why Google 396 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: and Snapchat? Do I want to show up to court? 397 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: Do you blame them? Yes, so many, so many good stuff. 398 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: First on location, I think the important thing, as you see, 399 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: is so many cases right now comes down to that 400 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: mobile device right and location communication is obviously everybody you 401 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: know have you know, you're talking on your phone, but 402 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: using those apps, whether we snapchat, any type of communication, 403 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: any type of if you sign in as a Google 404 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: or with your Google account, the location is there, right, 405 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: You're transmitting your location, and it's clear in all their 406 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: data policies. However, what's interesting to me is, obviously he 407 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: makes the nine one one call, but they had been 408 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: together allegedly before, so showing all phones together by location 409 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: is pretty important. Then showing what I understand, the wife's 410 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: phone was found away from the scene, so if they 411 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: were together at one time, or two of them were 412 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: together and one maybe at the time that somebody was murdered, 413 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: you might have the separation of devices. So actually it's 414 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: almost like a video as you think of the digital devices. 415 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: They're together, they're separate. Now this phone is away from that, 416 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: and you can use all of that by where they 417 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: even the phone turned on or an app being utilized. 418 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: I think the location information would be quite critical as 419 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: long as you know they obtain this from either their 420 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: cell phone carriers. With Snapchat, what's interesting about Snapchat is 421 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: you know how they're talking. You know, they're really excited 422 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: about this. What's interesting to me is the retention policy 423 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: that you have with Snapchat. We all think as soon 424 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: as you, you know, send a snap, it goes away. Well, 425 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: it's really it depends because if it's unopened, in quotes 426 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: the desired timeline, it keeps it for thirty one days 427 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: if it has not been opened. So I think that's 428 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: extremely important to think about with on the Snapchat side 429 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: of it. So did you say is kept for thirty 430 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: one days if it is not opened? What if it 431 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: is opened? Yeah, if it is opened, it depends upon 432 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: the setting, right, If it's opened by the individuals, it 433 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: goes away. However, if anyone within that group saves that, 434 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: it gets saved onto the Snapchat server, so it's available. 435 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: So you're saying, and regular people talk, you are saying 436 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: that there's a chance that snap was saved. Yeah, sure, yeah, 437 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: it's quite possible. It depends upon when they serve either 438 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: preservation order on that and I don't know that that timeline. 439 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: But if it was saved by any of the people 440 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: within the group, because I understand it was sent to someone, 441 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: If it was saved, then yes, it would still remain 442 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: on the server for snapshet. Well, I can tell you 443 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: most people and I'm speaking generally, don't save snaps unless 444 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: it's something really commemorative or special to them or have 445 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: a certain meaning to them, because you know, it's kind 446 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: of a throwaway. I'd be surprised if it was saved 447 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: unless the subpoena had been delivered within that thirty one 448 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: day period where it's still being housed to Doctor Bethany 449 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: Marshall joining us psychoanalyst out Beverly Heals It. Doctor Bethany 450 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: Marshall dot Com started bling Empire on Netflix. Doctor Bethany, 451 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: let me confirm this with Anne Emerson. First, Anne Emerson 452 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: joining me at the courthouse. You can hear the jars 453 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: being called in the background from WCIV. From what I understand, 454 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: there is a new, bright and shining, new Alex Murdog 455 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: in front of the jurars because he's there to see 456 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: every single thing and make eye contact and smile and 457 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: turn on his apparent charm. I don't think he's charming, 458 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: but apparently some people do. I understand the very slimmed 459 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: down Alex Murdog has actually smirked in court during jury selection, 460 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: and he's turning on a smile I've never seen before. 461 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: He and he's dressed up in a suit. He looks 462 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: like he's going to handle a case, not be a 463 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: defendant in a case. Is this true with the smiles 464 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: and the smirks, And if he couldn't be more true? 465 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: I mean, as far as I'm watching him like a hawk, 466 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: I've got right now. And just so everybody knows, I'm 467 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: in a media workflow overflow room, so I'm not in 468 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: the courtroom. I have the audio coming through the area 469 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: where I'm working today, but when I'm in the courtroom, 470 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: which is just across the street. So basically what's going 471 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: on is he is completely changed from the last few months. 472 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: He made a transformation, and I saw it happening in 473 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: the last motions heering in December when they allowed him 474 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: to have his UH shackles taken off. He shows up 475 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: in with hair. We hadn't seen him with a head 476 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: of hair in a while. Yeah, I thought he shaved 477 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: his head. He sure did. Hear he shows up with 478 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: a head of hair. Real. Now, that's gotta be real real, 479 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: because I don't think they make a weed that looks 480 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: like that. So it's it has gotten a lot wider. 481 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: I have noticed that over the last year or two. 482 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: But somebody's had a touch up exactly, so he is unshackled, 483 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: he's got on his blazer. He's very relaxed. I saw 484 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: it in December, even when he kind of had his 485 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: arm over the one of the sort of que like 486 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: talking to someone behind him, and had a big smile 487 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: on his face, and he looked like part of the 488 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: defense team. And that is something that I can't even 489 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: underestimate how important that is to show that level of 490 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: confidence that he is portraying right now with his defense team. 491 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: There's no there's no nervousness. There, there's a there's a 492 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: there's a real sense of he's taking notes, stirring the jersey, 493 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: he's looking at them. Even by the end of the day. 494 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: He didn't do it at the beginning, but by the 495 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: end of the day. On the third panel, he stands up. 496 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: When they say can you know the defendant? Police stand up? 497 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: He stands up and says, good afternoon, Okay, time stories 498 00:31:54,040 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Okay, I need a shrink, and I 499 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: made one very quickly. Nine one one, Doctor Bethany, nine 500 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: one one way in Oh, everybody's heard my long, boring 501 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: explanation so many times I've never heard you ever. Okay, 502 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: I won't say long, but I've never heard you give 503 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: a boring explanation. Go ahead, Okay. The brief is that 504 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: sociopaths have very low levels of anxiety. They never feel 505 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: they're going to get caught. Because of that, they don't 506 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: have cause and effect thinking, and they are messy, and Nancy, 507 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: that's what all these crimes are. They are messy. This 508 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: guy has so many charges against him, even though we're 509 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: talking about this first charge right now. The big picture, Nancy, 510 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: I think about intergenerational wealth and power and how almost 511 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: every family that has power over the people around them 512 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: has one crazy, messy sociopathic family member. I mean, we 513 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: were talking about the royal family member Prince Andrew. You know, 514 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: he is hanging out with freet with with Epstein, and 515 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: then they try to clean him up afterwards, make him 516 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: look good. But in that BBC interview he really reveals 517 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: his associations with Epstein. You can't clean up crazy, Nancy. 518 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: So seeing the senior Murdoch in the courtroom, it's like 519 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: the family's craziest, messiest, sociopathic, drug addicted, homicidal, larcenous family 520 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: member on display for the jurors and everyone to see. 521 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,719 Speaker 1: And do you think they're going to be caring about 522 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: Snapchat when they have this Craig Craig guy in front 523 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,719 Speaker 1: of them. I really don't think. So. This is going 524 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: to be a study in sociopathy and everybody's going to 525 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: learn that these guys are grandiose. They think they're in charge, 526 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: they think that they control the system. And just a 527 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: brief comment on all the cell phones and the apps 528 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: that were open that night. To me, this is like 529 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: one big family therapy session. When I was thinking about this, 530 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: see where the family members did, see where they go 531 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: we did the families? Did they have dinner together that night? 532 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: And then did he start swirling around in the dog 533 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: kennel and in the kitchen and wherever he stored his guns. 534 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: We're going to know a lot from where he ambled 535 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: around the house during that night, and I'm sure it 536 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: was not in intimate settings with his family. Wow, that's 537 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: one of the first times I've ever heard you not 538 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: work in sato mastotism. I was just waiting for it. 539 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: It didn't happen in masturbating. Just let yeah that too. 540 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: But I don't think that Alex murnog is in any sense, 541 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: crazy in the legal sense. In other words, didn't know 542 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: right from wrong at the time of the incident because 543 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: there was too much cover up. Chris Buyer's joining with 544 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: joining me former police chief John's Creek all the four 545 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: twenty five years now private investigator and polygrapher at Lancaster 546 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: Information Lancaster Services dot Com. Chris Buyer, I think it's 547 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 1: very significant what people do and what they don't do. 548 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,280 Speaker 1: And I think it's significant if it's true that Alex 549 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: and Murlog turned off location services on his device. Oh yeah, 550 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: that's that's hugely telling. We know our devices, we have 551 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: them all the time, are connected to him, and as 552 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,240 Speaker 1: an investigators then one of the greatest tools in solving 553 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: cases the last you know, several years up to a decade. 554 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,760 Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, very curious that he found a reason 555 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: to turn that off, especially when he was, you know, 556 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: at his house. Um so, yeah, that's very telling to 557 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: me as an investigator for sure. Chris Biers, what do 558 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: you make of his smiling and ultimately smirking demeanor in 559 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: the courtroom. I think I think the the one that 560 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,879 Speaker 1: spoke before nailed it. I think he's just got an 561 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: ore of all he's getting away from with things from 562 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: a family of privilege, and I think he's just not 563 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: feeling the pressure of it. No one that you know, 564 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: history is always been on his side as far as 565 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: his family and getting all some different things that they 566 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: were accused of, and I think he's just got that 567 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: air of arrogance. Well, he's definitely had a makeover. And 568 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: I'll tell you a classic makeover. Or the Menendez brothers. 569 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: They look like two college freshmen when they went in 570 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: on trial for the murders of their mother and father. 571 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking about what's happening in the courtroom 572 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: right now. I want you to take a listen to 573 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: our cut one twenty eight, our friends at GMA. Murdoch 574 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 1: is facing more than one hundred finance related charges, accused 575 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: of stealing more than eight and a half million dollars 576 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: from more than a dozen victims, friends, family, and clients 577 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: of his family's law firm. This was a long standing, 578 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: prominent family in the area and that's going to have 579 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: a lot of impact on our jurors. This is going 580 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 1: to be a very long process to get to jurors 581 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: that are not biased by this family's long standing presence. 582 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: In this community. The presiding judge in this case issued 583 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: an order last month saying any identifying information about the 584 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: jurors who serve in this trial cannot be disclosed. The 585 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: trials expected to last about three weeks. Prosecutors are seeking 586 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: life in prison to Mark Tate, high profile lawyer are 587 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: joining us from the Tate Law Group in Savannah, just 588 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: in the shadow of this courthouse, Mark Tate, do you 589 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 1: believe these jurs will be or should be sequestered put 590 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: in a hotel? Well? I mean, you know, Nancy, You've 591 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: tried tons of criminal cases. You know how much jurors 592 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: hate to be sequestered. Do you blame them? I hate 593 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: to even travel away from my twins, I do it, 594 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, who wants an angry juror in 595 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: the box? Yeah? And the defense feels the same way. 596 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: You know they're going to punish somebody, and you want 597 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: to make things as easy as possible. And in all honesty, 598 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: I have found when I've tried high profile civil cases, 599 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:56,320 Speaker 1: jurors listen to judges and the judges admonish them every 600 00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: single day and inquire every single morning. Don't pay attention 601 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: to the press, don't talk about it. And I tend 602 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: to think they take that seriously. If they're not going 603 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: to take it seriously, they're going to sneak information when 604 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: they're western. If they're going to take it seriously, they're 605 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: going to take it seriously at home. You know, I've 606 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: never been on a jury. I've always been stricken, believe 607 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 1: it or not. But I do know that people. I've 608 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: seen near domestic violence situations of husbands and wives trying 609 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: to get them to each other to talk about what 610 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,240 Speaker 1: happened in a jury or what's going on in a trial. 611 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 1: And so I tend to think that there. I tend 612 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 1: to think that they believe and trust and try to 613 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: adhere what the judge tells them. I think it's a 614 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 1: tough call for either side to insist on sequestration. And 615 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: if I were the one sitting there defending Murdoch, first 616 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 1: of all, I would have emptied out every single bank 617 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: account he has for a paid an advanced fee before 618 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 1: I set foot to defend him. Man, you're not kids 619 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 1: rule number one in criminal defense. Cash up front, That's right, 620 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: because you know if you walk him, and he might, 621 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: you're not getting paid a dime by that redhead pool. No, 622 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,879 Speaker 1: not any go ahead, And Emerson, Oh, I just wanted 623 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: to let you know. Right now they're going through finding 624 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 1: out exactly how all of jurors know about what's going 625 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: on into Alec Murdoch case. They're finding out what they're 626 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: they're finding out. They're asking each juror, how do you 627 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: know about this case? Got to you listening to and 628 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: we're hearing over and over again at the lot of 629 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: word of mouth in this little community. You can't underestimate 630 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: a little community with a good grapevine and Coleton County 631 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: is all about it. Well, I mean the thing is 632 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: in any high profile cases, people have heard about it, 633 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 1: heard about it ahead of time, or whether it's on 634 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: TV and the newspaper online. So the issue is can 635 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: they be honest jurars and decide that come up with 636 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: a decision based on what they hear in court? And 637 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: Emerson got a question for you. He's facing over one 638 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: hundred other finance related charges. But what charges well this 639 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 1: jury here about? Oh boy, that is right now. What 640 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: they've got to decide now from what I've been told 641 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: from Yeah, what what they want to know is whether 642 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: or not these financial crimes, all ninety nine of them 643 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: are going to show up as the motive for why 644 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: this double murder has But is he being tried for 645 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,800 Speaker 1: those in front of the jury, right, they were severed. 646 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: They were severed, correct An Emerson, They are absolutely severed. 647 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: They are severed from from that. But this is a 648 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: question can they be brought in because he hasn't been 649 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 1: convicted of these crimes yet, So because they haven't been convicted, 650 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,840 Speaker 1: the judge has to rule on allowing these crimes to 651 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: be brought in as the motive. And the motive is 652 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: very clearly from the state to that he had a 653 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: confrontation right before these double murders occurred. The state is 654 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 1: saying that he used these double murders as a distraction 655 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,919 Speaker 1: and a way to gain sympathy from the public, from 656 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: his family, from all of these people, to get the 657 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: heat off. That is what the motive is that the 658 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: state is saying. That's a tough tough call, a very 659 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: tough call for this judge whether to allow in prior 660 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,720 Speaker 1: acts financial fraud to the team of millions to show motive. 661 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: The jury is being selected right now. We are live 662 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 1: at the courthouse. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,