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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stupidity, home of the greatest media mind ever

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Speaker 1: to walk the planet.

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Speaker 2: I tell you what, man, He's a literal titan across

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Speaker 2: the entire media landscape.

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Speaker 1: Okay, sure, here's a deal.

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Speaker 3: He's a true icon in every sense of the word.

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Speaker 1: He's loved and feared more than any being.

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Speaker 3: To Grace's planet, there.

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Speaker 1: Got a bed with a voice that sounds like Verry White,

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Speaker 1: and be got to say, Hey, let's do it, baby.

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Speaker 1: God himself would pay thirty nine ninety nine for a cameo.

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Speaker 1: Fact of the matter is you are about to embark

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Speaker 1: on a transcendent experience that can only be described as

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Speaker 1: psychological nudity.

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Speaker 3: This is Stu goox, and this is Stupidity. Here we go,

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Speaker 3: Jim Hody.

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Speaker 2: Welcome into another episode of Stupidity, the biggest podcast in

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Speaker 2: the world thanks to you, and of course thanks to

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Speaker 2: our friends Draft Gigs.

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Speaker 3: How about that.

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Speaker 2: Please subscribe, rate and review, unsubscribe, resubscribe.

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Speaker 3: Re rate, re review.

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Speaker 2: You are the reason we are the biggest podcasts in

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Speaker 2: the world.

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Speaker 3: You and Draftkigs. Hello, mikey A. How are you. I'm good?

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Speaker 3: How are you used to I am I am doing well.

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Speaker 3: We are talking way too, way too frequently these days.

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Speaker 3: I'm not happy about it. I don't like it.

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Speaker 2: Stop working so hard and stop making me work so hard.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, listen, I want to tell you. We had

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Speaker 2: Phil helm Youth on our last episode and we played

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Speaker 2: a game of Athletes that can note Poker, and we

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Speaker 2: left out Hartley Dyke's Listen. It has been sitting with

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Speaker 2: me wide receiver at Oklahoma State, I believe, And I

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Speaker 2: don't know why I had to throw that in there.

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Speaker 2: I was flexing my cowboy knowledge there. But it has

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Speaker 2: been sitting with me since the second we stopped playing

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Speaker 2: that game, just letting you.

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Speaker 3: Know, listen that away on you. That's all you got

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Speaker 3: for me, Mike, That's all I got. You suck, all right, Mike.

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Speaker 2: So we're gonna have Howard beck On a lot going

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Speaker 2: on in the NBA. Howard word a uh and I

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Speaker 2: like Howard a lot. He wrote a very interesting column

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Speaker 2: SI Daily cover actually for Sports Illustrated. The days of

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Speaker 2: the great star coach partnership are largely gone from the NBA.

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Speaker 2: Has something been lost? And it gets into the importance

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Speaker 2: of coaching and all that. But before we get to Howard,

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Speaker 2: I'm excited to have him on top five howards of

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Speaker 2: all time? Top five howards of all time? What do

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Speaker 2: you think, mikey A who.

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Speaker 3: Has who has a list of top five howards? I do?

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Speaker 3: I do you have a list? You have a top

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Speaker 3: five list of howards? Okay, I'm gonna get who's going first?

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Speaker 3: Who's going first? Here you go first? Okay?

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Speaker 2: Howard back again from Sports Illustrating, gonna talk. We're gonna

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Speaker 2: talk to him about everything in the NBA in just

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Speaker 2: a second. But first the important stuff are rocket top

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Speaker 2: five howards of all time? Oh my god, here we go.

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Speaker 2: Number five for me? Number five, Ron Howard. How about that,

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Speaker 2: Roddy Howard?

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Speaker 3: Huh? Richard Cunningha, how did you even think? Last name?

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Speaker 3: You did it? Huh? Who is a fifth on your list?

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Speaker 3: Let's go. I'll give mine, you give yours one for

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Speaker 3: one chingy real name, Howard? Okay.

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Speaker 2: Number four for me is Howie Mandel. How about that

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Speaker 2: Howie Mandell. That's not a Howard? But how we Mandel?

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Speaker 3: Are we good? All right? I'm gonna go number four.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna go. With our guests coming up, I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: go Howard Beck. You're such a kiss ass. Number three

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Speaker 3: as you are. Howard beck is in the zoom right now,

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Speaker 3: and listen. He loves Jim Howard.

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Speaker 2: You're not online, okay, but feel free to come up

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Speaker 2: with your own top five hours of all time when

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Speaker 2: we get to you.

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Speaker 3: It's called producing, all right.

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Speaker 2: Number three for me, Howard coat Cell, Howard co Cell,

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Speaker 2: the Great Howard coast Cell. That's number three. Yes, there

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Speaker 2: are two better than the Great Howard. Howard cons fine,

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Speaker 2: all right, all right, I'm gonna steal it.

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Speaker 4: I'm taking Howard Cosell because I forgot him on my list,

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Speaker 4: and I'm okay leaving off Howard Hughes.

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Speaker 3: You're so lazy, Howard Hughes, get the hell out of here,

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Speaker 3: all right.

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Speaker 2: Number two for me, the king of all media, Howard Stern,

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Speaker 2: Number two, Number two, Howard.

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Speaker 3: I'm worried that.

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Speaker 4: We're gonna have the same number one because my number

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Speaker 4: two is also Howard Stern. And I'm terrified we're gonna

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Speaker 4: have the same number one because I've got a great one.

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Speaker 2: My number one is legendary afternoon host from Philadelphia, WYP

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Speaker 2: Howard Eskin.

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Speaker 3: The most famous of Howards. Yes, that's where I went. Okay,

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Speaker 3: we did not go the same route what do you guys?

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Speaker 3: Number one Howard the Duck. Oh, it's very good. That

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Speaker 3: is very very good, but not as good as Howard

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Speaker 3: is down to earth and had sex with an earth woman.

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Speaker 3: A quick Howard Eskin story. We used to want.

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Speaker 2: Dan and I had a very good relation with Terrell Owens.

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Speaker 2: Sorell Owens was playing in Philadelphia. Howard Eskin was the

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Speaker 2: Gang of Philadelphia sports radio. Terrell Owens would only agree

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Speaker 2: to do a radio show with me and Dan and

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Speaker 2: not Howard Eskin, And so we preempted Howard Eskins show

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Speaker 2: for an hour every week afternoon drive in his city,

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Speaker 2: in his market, and he could ask THEO a single question.

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Speaker 3: And he hated us.

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Speaker 2: Let's bring in our friend Howard back. Howard, did you

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Speaker 2: put together a top five list?

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Speaker 3: First off?

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Speaker 2: Who's list did you like better? Mine or mikey A's?

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Speaker 2: And did you come up with your own top five?

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Speaker 2: Howards of all tame?

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Speaker 5: Hello, gentlemen, thank you for having me. This has been

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Speaker 5: incredibly entertaining. Already I'm calling a couple of fouls here,

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Speaker 5: technical foul. You can't ron Howard's last name is Howard.

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Speaker 5: I think that's cheating.

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Speaker 3: Okay. Also, if we're going.

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Speaker 5: If we're going in the happy days route, then you

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Speaker 5: got to have Howard Cunningham his dad.

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Speaker 3: Right, you're right, mister C.

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Speaker 5: You're right, C so cool that Fonsie just called him, See,

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Speaker 5: mister C. Like, because and I speak with authority on

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Speaker 5: the subject, you would rather be called by the last

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Speaker 5: initial of your last name than by your first name.

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Speaker 5: Because Howard has just never been that cool, right, And

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Speaker 5: that's the thing growing up when I did as probably

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Speaker 5: similar generation to you guys, Howard Cunningham, eh, not that

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Speaker 5: cool at least amongst my friends. Howard Hughes, some weirdo,

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Speaker 5: you know, rich dude. Howard the Duck was just a

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Speaker 5: freaking nightmare that was in high school for me, Like

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Speaker 5: that was just that was just killing me. And Howard Cosell,

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Speaker 5: Like we think we're all in sports media, right, so

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Speaker 5: Howard Cosell is a freaking icon, and plus he's been

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Speaker 5: gone a long time. But when we were growing up,

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Speaker 5: Howard Cosell was this annoying guy with the you know,

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Speaker 5: squeak voice, the whiny voice and everything else.

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Speaker 3: And I there were.

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Speaker 5: No cool Howard's until how we Long came along for

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Speaker 5: the Raiders. And even though he was Howie, not Howard.

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Speaker 5: He actually did more to like mainstream that name that

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Speaker 5: I think anybody during my upbringing. Thank you how he man.

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Speaker 3: Man, But how'd you feel about mikey A putting you

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Speaker 3: on his list?

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Speaker 5: I mean, I mean pandering a little bit, but man,

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Speaker 5: I'll take it. Thank you, Mike.

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Speaker 3: I'm up for you. How'd you feel about Howardes?

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Speaker 5: I mean anything about him? I know of him, we

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Speaker 5: have not crossed paths. I'm not a Philadelphia guy, but

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Speaker 5: Uh and Stern, like Stern would be the other guy

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Speaker 5: who made being Howard. I guess cool, although that's a

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Speaker 5: taste thing. My older brother Uh loves Stern. I respect

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Speaker 5: what Stern has done. I was never a Stern guy.

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Speaker 5: Like I don't.

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Speaker 3: I don't.

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Speaker 5: I don't listen to him regularly. He does phenomenal interviews.

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Speaker 5: I liked his movie oddly, even though don't listen to

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Speaker 5: the show. I like, I thought, that's weird.

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Speaker 3: Paul stole that movie.

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Speaker 5: Paul Gamy did.

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Speaker 3: Paul Gamat, Paul Giamondi steals every movie he's it, doesn't he? No,

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Speaker 3: he kind of does, no doubt. So how Howard.

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Speaker 2: Beck is with a senior Sports Illustrated co host of

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Speaker 2: the Crossover podcast with Chris Mannix and analyst on Serious

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Speaker 2: xm MBA and wrote a very interesting article that Levator

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Speaker 2: and sent to me over the weekend, a Sports Illustrated

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Speaker 2: daily cover the days of the great star coaching partnerships

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Speaker 2: are largely gone from the NBA.

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Speaker 3: Has something been lost?

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Speaker 2: Howard? I found it fascinating. This is something Dan and

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Speaker 2: I have been discussing on our show for quite some time.

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering why you decided to write about this.

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Speaker 5: So in truth, I actually started down this path over

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Speaker 5: a year ago and shout out to my former editors

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Speaker 5: at Bleacher Report, where I was working at the time,

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Speaker 5: who said, yes, this is interesting, go for it. I

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Speaker 5: started doing some reporting the lockdown, hit pandemic hit, it

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Speaker 5: went on pause, job change in the meantime, and my

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Speaker 5: editors at SI thankfully also liked the idea. What it

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Speaker 5: hit me at various junctures over the last few years

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Speaker 5: was that so much of the landscape or the dynamics

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Speaker 5: of the NBA have changed during this player empowerment era,

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Speaker 5: and I think on balance it's a good thing. Right

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Speaker 5: players should get to decide their own fates, their own

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Speaker 5: careers go wherever makes them happy play for whichever team,

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Speaker 5: whichever teammates what like. That's I have no problem with

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Speaker 5: that whatsoever. But I have kept coming back to this

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Speaker 5: every couple of years. I've explored some other tangent of

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Speaker 5: this trend or this era, because I feel like it

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Speaker 5: has changed things in subtle, sometimes very subtle ways. And

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Speaker 5: this was subtle, right, we needed to be ten years

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Speaker 5: into the player empowerment era. We want to start with

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Speaker 5: the decision in twenty ten to see that one of

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Speaker 5: the effects is that, oh, Steve curR and Steph Curry

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Speaker 5: are the last like real player superstar partnership at the

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Speaker 5: highest level, right Like, yes, Terry Statts and Dame Lillard

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Speaker 5: have had seven years together whatever, but they haven't been

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Speaker 5: to a finals, they haven't won a championship. I'm thinking

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Speaker 5: more in terms of in the history of the NBA,

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Speaker 5: as we have all understood it in our lifetimes, you

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Speaker 5: have always had these great partnerships Russell and hour Back

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Speaker 5: Pop and Timmy phil Jackson and Michael Jordan, Magic and

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Speaker 5: Riley Chuck Dale and Isaiah Thomas Ruy, Tom Jhonovich and

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Speaker 5: a chem Olaja Wan So dynasties are even the what

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Speaker 5: I would call mini dynasty the two year runs like

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Speaker 5: the Rockets of the Pistons, and you knew that those

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Speaker 5: guys were connected at the hip, that there was something

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Speaker 5: almost telepathic there, and that they were on the same wavelength,

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Speaker 5: and that it meant something for how successful those teams

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Speaker 5: could be because you never had to worry about, or

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Speaker 5: maybe rarely had to worry about, is Michael on the

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Speaker 5: same page with Phil, And if Michael is doing what

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Speaker 5: Phil needs to do, if Michael's buying in on the

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Speaker 5: triangle and Michael is all about like the game plan,

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Speaker 5: you know everyone else is falling in line. And if

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Speaker 5: you're together over years, especially winning titles, that bonds you

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Speaker 5: that much closer. It builds that much more trust. And

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Speaker 5: I thought, well, I don't see that much now, and

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Speaker 5: it's not again. I'm not judging it as good bet

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Speaker 5: or otherwise. It's just different. It's interesting. So Lebron wins

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Speaker 5: two a Spolstra and I kept thinking, I'm never gonna

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Speaker 5: think about Lebron and Spoe the way I think about

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Speaker 5: Michael and Phil. And it was underscored early in the

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Speaker 5: Lockdown when the last Dance came out, and the first

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Speaker 5: minutes of the documentary are Michael saying I'm not playing

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Speaker 5: for anybody else, something that you never hear anybody say today.

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Speaker 5: I don't think and underscored by every time they're winning

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Speaker 5: a title, those guys hugging and the joy on their faces.

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Speaker 5: And I'm not saying that Lebron's never hugged Tyleru or

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Speaker 5: Spolster or Vogel. Probably happened, it's not those same resonant

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Speaker 5: moments because the bonds don't run as deep, the experience

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Speaker 5: with each other hasn't been as long. And so yes,

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Speaker 5: so Lebron four titles with three different coaches, Kawhi two titles,

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Speaker 5: two coaches, Durant two titles, same coach, but left. So

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Speaker 5: if he wins another once with a different coach, and

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Speaker 5: curR and Curry are the only standing remnant of this

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Speaker 5: old model, at least for now. And it made me

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Speaker 5: wonder is that over and what is lost? And that

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Speaker 5: was what I was trying to explore.

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Speaker 2: Would you throw Wade and Spolstra into that mix? Wade

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Speaker 2: one to one with Riley and then two with Eric Spolstro.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's funny because obviously Spoe was part of

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Speaker 5: that staff also, you know, before he became the head coach.

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Speaker 5: So Wade and Spoe had been together for a long stretch.

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Speaker 5: I guess I didn't think of them in the same

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Speaker 5: vein only because yeah, like it wasn't Wade and Spolster

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Speaker 5: for two or three or more, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 5: It was There's a longevity there and then. And I

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Speaker 5: fully admit there are various ways you could look at this.

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Speaker 5: And if anybody wants to come back and say, well,

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Speaker 5: Carlisle had his eleven years with Dirk, and I referenced

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Speaker 5: them in the story, sure, But again, I'm looking at dynasties.

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Speaker 5: I'm looking at the teams that defined Eras. The way

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Speaker 5: that the Bulls did in the nineties, the way that

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Speaker 5: the Lakers did in the eighties, the way the Spurs

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Speaker 5: did off and on over a fifteen year span. You

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Speaker 5: know it when it is It is kind of the

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Speaker 5: obscenity thing. You know it when you see it. You

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Speaker 5: know the coach superstar bond when you see it. I'm

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Speaker 5: not saying that wayde and Spolster don't have it. I'm

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Speaker 5: just saying that when you think about the great star

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Speaker 5: coach combinations in the NBA, the ones that defined Eras,

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Speaker 5: you think of the ones I mentioned, Russell an auerback,

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Speaker 5: Magic and Riley, Pop and Timmy MJ and Phil Phil

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Speaker 5: and Shack Phil and Kobe. Those are the ones that

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Speaker 5: come to mind, and they and that are the strongest

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Speaker 5: image because of their longevity and the number of times.

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Speaker 3: No, and it makes sense. No, you're right.

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Speaker 2: And if you you know, if you took it over

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Speaker 2: to football, you think you know Montana and Walsh, you

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Speaker 2: think Brady and Belichick obviously, and you're right about Dirk, Like,

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Speaker 2: there's never gonna be a time where I think about

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Speaker 2: Dirk and the next thought I have is Rick Carlyle.

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Speaker 3: It's just it's not gonna happen. In fact, it would

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Speaker 3: probably be Steve Nash. Like it's weird, you know, Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And I do think of them together, but it just

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Speaker 5: again it's a little bit eye of the beholder, and

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Speaker 5: it's kind of just the way that we have seen

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Speaker 5: from the outside how these relationships have evolved, or the

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Speaker 5: moments that we think of involving them. Some of the

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Speaker 5: the ones I've mentioned, I think we would all agree

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Speaker 5: you cannot separate them in your mind. You cannot think

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Speaker 5: about Magic without Riley or Riley without Magic.

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Speaker 3: No, it's totally fair. Do you see one?

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Speaker 2: Is there a current pairing maybe that perhaps has a

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Speaker 2: chance of being the next one, Like if Yannis wins

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Speaker 2: in Milwaukee, well, could that potentially be what Gianni's and Budenholzer.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's funny because most of the discussion

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Speaker 5: about those guys is, well, if they lose in the

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Speaker 5: second round, but is gone, you know, right.

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Speaker 3: But they could win it all and when the next

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Speaker 3: five and then all of a sudden you have what

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Speaker 3: you're craving.

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Speaker 5: Totally possible, right, yeah, But it's just again, it's indicative

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Speaker 5: of the era we're in that when we think about

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Speaker 5: Joannas and his coach, the first thing we're thinking is, well,

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Speaker 5: they don't get out of the second round, it's possible.

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Speaker 5: Uh you know maybe you know, like they're older, the

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Speaker 5: stars in Brooklyn are older now, but what if the

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Speaker 5: nets go on to run over the next few years

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Speaker 5: when we start thinking about I don't even know if

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Speaker 5: it's Kyrie and Nash Harden to Nash or Duranton Nash.

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Speaker 5: I mean, right, like the like three almost co equals.

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Speaker 5: It's not the same as like Jordan being the clear

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Speaker 5: alpha dog of the bulls or Magic defining those Laker teams.

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Speaker 5: You know, coaches don't last long enough for this to

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Speaker 5: happen anymore. And that's the other thing, because people said,

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Speaker 5: well what about will we think of Luca and Carlisle

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Speaker 5: that way someday? Well, maybe they got a ways to

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Speaker 5: go to become title contenders. And Carlile's, you know, pretty

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Speaker 5: deep into his career. I don't know how much longer

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Speaker 5: he'll coach. And you know, he's one of the longer

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Speaker 5: tenured guys. There's only a handful. It's like him, Spoe

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Speaker 5: Terry Stotts, I think is one of the longer tenured

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Speaker 5: right now. Everybody else has been where they've been for

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Speaker 5: like three years or less, two years or less, you know,

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Speaker 5: so part of the question becomes, well, is anybody gonna

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Speaker 5: stick around long enough coach or player for this to happen?

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Speaker 5: Because Phil and Michael were together for basically a decade,

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Speaker 5: and you know, even like with Phil, with Shaq and Kobe,

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Speaker 5: it was only a five year run, but they went

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Speaker 5: four times and won three and Phil leaves and then

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Speaker 5: he comes back and he wins a couple more with Kobe,

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Speaker 5: which kind of cemented it and it made it a

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Speaker 5: longer span. So I don't know, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: If you had the pinpoint, Howard, the single most important,

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Speaker 2: this single reason above all other reasons, that this is

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Speaker 2: happen right that we no longer have these relationships. Would

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Speaker 2: it be player empowerment? Would it be free agency combination? Like?

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Speaker 3: What would be the one thing that you would you

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Speaker 3: would pinpoint a.

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Speaker 5: Lot of times when we talk about player empowerment or

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Speaker 5: superstar empowerment or superstar mobility as I've referred to it,

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Speaker 5: at times we think of it as like, well, the

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Speaker 5: players are leveraging their their their authority to make these moves.

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Speaker 5: And that's true. But the layer just beneath that that's

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Speaker 5: allowed that to happen in large part is shorter contracts.

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Speaker 5: So the NBA and the time that I've been covering it,

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Speaker 5: I started in ninety seven, I've covered multiple you know,

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Speaker 5: CBA negotiations and changes to the to the CBA over time.

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Speaker 5: Every single time the NBA has tried to shorten contracts,

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Speaker 5: lower the raise, the annual raises, do everything possible to

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Speaker 5: so they don't have albatross contracts anymore, so that you

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Speaker 5: don't have the juwan Howard, you know, seven years in

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Speaker 5: a bazillion dollars anymore, right, And what's happened is we

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Speaker 5: went from seven year mac you know, seven year deals

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Speaker 5: in ninety nine to the next time they went through

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Speaker 5: they'd lowered that to six year maximum, then five years.

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Speaker 5: We're at a point now where most players are on

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Speaker 5: four year deals, some on five. They just come up

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Speaker 5: for free agency more often. And though the players were

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Speaker 5: against that at the time, the union would always negotiate

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Speaker 5: against the NBA's desired to shorten contracts, it's worked in

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Speaker 5: their favor. It's given them way more leverage and way

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Speaker 5: more freedom. That goes with that, and on top you

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Speaker 5: know that then fosters the player empowerment and all that movement.

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Speaker 5: So the one thing that is that is you know,

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Speaker 5: erasing these kinds of relationships. More than anything. It's shorter

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Speaker 5: contracts and the fact that players can move around, but

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Speaker 5: it's also other things. It's the fact that coaches don't

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Speaker 5: have as much authority as they used to, and they're

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Speaker 5: not empowered by teams in the same way that they were.

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Speaker 5: They make more money than their predecessors, but relative to

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Speaker 5: the players, the gap is even larger than it ever was.

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Speaker 5: So the players have more authority than the coaches do

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Speaker 5: we also have and this is a really hard thing

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Speaker 5: to define, right, Like where are the Chuck Daies or

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Speaker 5: the Phil Jackson's, you know, and Greg Popovic aside, because

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Speaker 5: he's been here so long that the pop of today

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Speaker 5: is still pop. But you just don't see these larger

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Speaker 5: than life personalities that can weather a lot of this, right.

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Speaker 5: They don't have more authority than their players. They don't

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Speaker 5: have more standing or security than their players. They're not.

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Speaker 5: They don't define the franchise in the same way Brad

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Speaker 5: Stevens great basketball mind. Does he define the Celtics. I'd

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Speaker 5: say no, no.

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Speaker 3: You does. But I know what mikey I is thinking

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Speaker 3: as a Nick fan.

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Speaker 2: He thinks that the next great player coach relationship that's

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Speaker 2: gonna last for like a decade is Julius Randall a

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Speaker 2: Tom Thibodeau.

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Speaker 3: Right, Mike, yeah, yeah, I mean you have to right

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Speaker 3: tell me how I'm wrong.

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Speaker 5: I did get at least I did get at least

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Speaker 5: one response like that on Twitter last week, So maybe

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Speaker 5: that was you, Mike.

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Speaker 3: Actually, it's been a listen, Howard, it's been a rough

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Speaker 3: couple of decades for us. Okay, we're both Nick fans. Okay,

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Speaker 3: we're latching out that anything we can guard.

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Speaker 5: And that's the thing though, Like will Randall stick around

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Speaker 5: long enough with Tim Sticker stick around long enough? Maybe

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Speaker 5: maybe this is the start of a beautiful friendship that's

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Speaker 5: going to define the next ten years of the Knicks.

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Speaker 5: Who knows, right, But.

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Speaker 2: Howard, what your article really started, Like what I was

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Speaker 2: thinking about as I was reading it was the importance

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Speaker 2: of coaching itself, like if you like like, and perhaps

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Speaker 2: we should rethink just how important it is, especially in basketball,

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Speaker 2: where you're playing five guys at the time, and if

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Speaker 2: you have the one or two best guys on that court,

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Speaker 2: chances are you're going to win, regardless of what your

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Speaker 2: coach is.

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Speaker 3: And when you look at Lebron.

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Speaker 2: Who's now won, you know, he's won championships with three

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Speaker 2: different coaches.

404
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Speaker 3: He's made it to the NBA finals with David Blatt.

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Speaker 2: You have to ask yourself Howard Port is coaching in

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Speaker 2: the NBA, right?

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Speaker 5: You You know, even the best coaches would always tell

408
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Speaker 5: you that, you know, their success is did entirely dependent

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Speaker 5: on the talent of their players, right, We've always all

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Speaker 5: known that. But Phil Jackson brought something to the table

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Speaker 5: that Michael needed at that juncture of his career. Phil

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Speaker 5: Jackson brought them to the table, as Shack said in

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Speaker 5: My Story, that Shack needed at that time in his career,

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Speaker 5: and that Code needed for that matter. And so sometimes

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Speaker 5: you know, at least in the past, there was something

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Speaker 5: that the coach brought in terms of whether it was

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Speaker 5: their knowledge, their gravitas, their ability to give this superstar

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Speaker 5: who has an amazing talent it might just win without them,

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Speaker 5: but this other little thing that they needed to unlock

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Speaker 5: a next level or you know, to go from you know,

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Speaker 5: start a superstar, or to go from superstar no rings

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Speaker 5: to actually having rings. I don't hear that anymore, right

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Speaker 5: Like Michael would tell you how important Phil Jackson was,

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Speaker 5: Tim Duncan would probably tell you how important Greg Popovich was.

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Speaker 5: Akeem Elijah Wan of My Stories says how important Rudy

426
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Speaker 5: t was to him. Isaiah says it about Chuck Day.

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Speaker 5: I don't know, and this is not if it feels

428
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Speaker 5: like mean to say this. I don't know what Lebron

429
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Speaker 5: would say about what any of those three guys that

430
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Speaker 5: he won with did. I'm sure there were good game

431
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Speaker 5: play and good time out he plays called out of timeouts.

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Speaker 5: It's not the same thing as Michael Jordan needing Phil

433
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,560
Speaker 5: to say, listen, your won scoring titles, where's it gotten you.

434
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 5: I need you to do something a little different here.

435
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:13,360
Speaker 5: I need you to play in a scheme where it's

436
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,639
Speaker 5: gonna involve your teammates more, especially the first three quarters

437
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 5: and then the fourth. You can do your thing, but

438
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 5: in the meantime, we need to have, you know, a

439
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 5: five man game where everyone is involved because they're gonna

440
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 5: be more confident and play at a different level, like

441
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,920
Speaker 5: those kinds of lessons that are more mentor to student.

442
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 5: I that's the part that I don't I don't hear

443
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 5: talked about as much. And maybe it's happening and it's

444
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:40,120
Speaker 5: just more subtle, but you know, you know. But does

445
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 5: Kawhi Leonard have the same trajectory if he doesn't land

446
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,400
Speaker 5: with pop first in the Spurs, maybe not. But by

447
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 5: the time he goes to Scent to to Toronto, it's like,

448
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 5: it's not about Nick Nurse. Again, Nick Nurse, great basketball mind,

449
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 5: but that championship is not about him. It's about Kawhi.

450
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,919
Speaker 5: So it I did ask the question which I did

451
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 5: not answer in the story. You know, you know, maybe

452
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,120
Speaker 5: you know coaching still matters, but do coaches?

453
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 3: Is it?

454
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 5: Are they interchanging? And interchangeable? Is again demeaning to them

455
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 5: because in that span of thirty NBA coaches there are

456
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 5: better and not so better.

457
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 2: But I think I think what Lebron would tell you,

458
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 2: by the way, just going back to that point for

459
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 2: a second, is Lebron would tell you Howard I won

460
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 2: those guys championships. Eric Spolser has two extra rings because

461
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 2: he has his two rings because of me. And I'd

462
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 2: be okay with that response.

463
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 5: Would I'd be okay with it too. And I do

464
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 5: think the game has changed to the extent too that

465
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 5: it really is more about you give the players a

466
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 5: bit of a format and then you let them go.

467
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 5: This is not you know, coaches holding up hand signals

468
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 5: for every single play and calling every single play of

469
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 5: the game and micromanaging. That's not today's NBA. There's a

470
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 5: lot more. That's why there's so much screen and roll

471
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 5: because you don't even need instructions necessarily to do that.

472
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 5: Everybody knows how to set up for that. There are

473
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 5: obviously a lot of other things that branch off of that.

474
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 5: But I think it is more player driven in just

475
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 5: the x's and no's of today's game, and maybe because

476
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 5: of that, it is only like calling the play out

477
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 5: of the time out or coming up with a defensive

478
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 5: game plan that matters. It's not the the the broader,

479
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 5: the more global philosophy of we're gonna run seven seconds

480
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 5: or less, we're gonna run the triangle, we're gonna run

481
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,880
Speaker 5: this motion offense, and so again. All those things still

482
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 5: exist in various forms, but it is more about the

483
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 5: talent now than it is about the coaches and what

484
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 5: they're bringing to the table.

485
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 2: Howard Beck With US senior writer Sports Illustrated, co host

486
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 2: of The Crossover podcast with Chris MANNOX an analyst on

487
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 2: Serious XMMBA. All right, we're gonna get you out of

488
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 2: here because we know you're a little bit short on time.

489
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 3: We're gonna play a quick game with you. Okay, quick

490
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 3: game with you? Mike. Are we going with Beck? Yeah?

491
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 3: Or Beck?

492
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 2: No?

493
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 3: What are we doing? Yeah? Let's do Beck yeah or

494
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 3: Beck no?

495
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 2: Okay, but Howard, listen, listen, Howard, I hate to like listen.

496
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: I hate to be a puppeteer here. You're not a puppet, Okay.

497
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 3: But if you're gonna go Beck, Yeah, you gotta say

498
00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 3: it like this, Beck Yeah, and no you want to

499
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 3: you want to try it out? Okay? Yeah?

500
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 5: Do you want me to tested a little right audition

501
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 5: here real quick?

502
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 3: Beck? Yeah, Yeah, That's what I'm talking about. Ah, there

503
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 3: we go. Hey, you're on doing smart guy, all right.

504
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 3: Tom Thibodeau Coach.

505
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:27,479
Speaker 5: Of the Year Beck Yeah, bech no, uh a soft

506
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 5: bech no. Only because I think Money Williams is still

507
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 5: Money Williams. Money Williams on the top of my ballot. Uh,

508
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 5: this hold this whole way, And I think Tims is second.

509
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 5: I have not decided. I've not locked in my ballot

510
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 5: for for certain, but Tims could win it, so it

511
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 5: could be a Beck Yeah at the end of the day.

512
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 5: On my ballot, I think he's second to Money Williams.

513
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 3: By the way, that would be a great example of

514
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 3: coaching still mattering. Is Tom has come. He's completely changed

515
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 3: the culture of the entire organization.

516
00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 5: Yes, right, but as Money Williams has in Phoenix, where

517
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 5: that team was wandering literally I think wandering the desert

518
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 5: because there's a lot of it out there. For ten years.

519
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 5: Their drought was longer than the Knicks drought. So you know,

520
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 5: I mean, this wasn't year one of Monney Williams. It's

521
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 5: year two, but it's his first. I didn't even want

522
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 5: to say full year. Last year was interrupted by the lockdown.

523
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 5: This one is compressed, but this is his first full season. There.

524
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 5: A lot of people give the credit to Chris Paul,

525
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 5: and deservedly so too, but Montey Williams has changed the

526
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 5: culture there as well.

527
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 3: And well see that's the tough part of the discussion.

528
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 2: Is Monty Williams a good coach or did he just

529
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: get Chris Paul become a good coach?

530
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 5: Right?

531
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 3: Well?

532
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 5: Did Tim's unlock Julius Randall or did Julius Randall in

533
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 5: year seven finally decide? You know what, maybe if I

534
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 5: got myself in better shape and pass the ball more often,

535
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 5: I'd be a better player.

536
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 2: Speaking of Julius Randall is better than Chris bive Beck

537
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 2: Yeah or bech no?

538
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 5: Oh, you can tell us that this is a show

539
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 5: hosted by two Nick fans.

540
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 3: No I got no.

541
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 5: Listen, quick quick collaboration. Julius Randall at this stage I

542
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 5: think has a arguably a more complete overall skill set,

543
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 5: But has he used that to impact whinning at the

544
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 5: highest level over the course of multiple years. Yet has

545
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 5: he anchored a team like Chris Bush anchored some pretty

546
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 5: good teams and was putting up phenomenal numbers in Toronto

547
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 5: with not a ton of help there for years, even

548
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 5: before he got to Miami. Then went to Miami, reinvented

549
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 5: himself and helped hin a couple of championships and go

550
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 5: to four straight finals. So it's not a fair comparison,

551
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 5: to be honest, Okay, uh, and that.

552
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: You're totally right, But again, it's been a rough couple

553
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 2: of decades for us Nicola. Djoki Okay is the best

554
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 2: basketball player of all time that no one cares about.

555
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 5: That's just mean.

556
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 2: But but true, I didn't hear back, no, no.

557
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 5: No, because listen, true bass ketball fans love what Yokic

558
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 5: is doing. Maybe maybe casual fans are just now coming

559
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 5: to appreciate him. Maybe it's going to take a run

560
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 5: to the finals before people truly appreciate what he does

561
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 5: or tune into him.

562
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 3: Uh.

563
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 5: This is a sport where a lot of people don't

564
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 5: tune in until the playoffs. And you know, the Nuggets

565
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 5: were in the conference finals last year, but it was

566
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 5: a weird year and they were playing the finals in

567
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 5: you know whatever. It was September, and we know that

568
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 5: ratings were let were down because the timing was off,

569
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 5: and a lot of stuff saying nobody cares about.

570
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: Yikes except for Denver. I mean, but if you.

571
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 5: Gave me another like a few minutes, maybe I would

572
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 5: come up with a great player like who would actually

573
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 5: have the title of best player that nobody cares about.

574
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 5: That would be an interesting one to ponder.

575
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: Make that your next column. Hey, I'm welcome for the idea.

576
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 5: I'm thinking.

577
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 2: We will think back and say to ourselves, let's do

578
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 2: it this way that air, beck No, we will think

579
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 2: back and say to ourselves, Kevin.

580
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: Durant was a top five player of all time, Becky,

581
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: get the beck out of here. Kevin Durant, I I

582
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 3: just I don't.

583
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: I think if Kevin Durant had stayed in Oklahoma City

584
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: he would have eventually won NBA championships.

585
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,360
Speaker 5: He took the easy way criticism.

586
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 3: I see, well, No, I listen, listen, I started that criticism.

587
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm taking credit for that take. Okay, and I

588
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 2: am proud of that take. It's one of my all

589
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 2: time great takes, but listen, he did. Can you imagine

590
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: Howard for a second, Michael Jordan not being able to

591
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 2: beat the Pistons, so rather than coming back and trying again,

592
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: he quits on the Bulls and joins Detroit.

593
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 3: It would never happen.

594
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 5: It couldn't have happened because at that time, players just

595
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 5: weren't in a way permitted to do that. The the

596
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 5: idea did not exist. It's it's like, when's the last

597
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 5: time you metiled something right and you went and you

598
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 5: grabbed an envelope? Did you have to lick it? Or

599
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 5: did you peel that thing off to stick the thing shut?

600
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 5: And then wonder why the can I curse on this show?

601
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 5: Why the fuck was I licking these gross things, sticking

602
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 5: my tongue on this thing for decades when we could

603
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 5: have been peeling this thing off the entire time? What

604
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 5: the fuck were we thinking? Like, it's not that players

605
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 5: couldn't leave in free agency. That didn't exist during Magic's

606
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,479
Speaker 5: era or Michael Jordan's era. It's just that nobody had

607
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 5: actually said, dude, we could peel this thing off instead

608
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 5: of licking the stupid envelope. So it just wasn't the

609
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 5: if Michael Jordan had played in this era. Who knows

610
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 5: what might have happened if he had hit that this

611
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 5: a similar kind of roadblock five years in or seven

612
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 5: years in. The decision that Lebron made that was so

613
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 5: controversial in twenty ten now is look back on with

614
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 5: I think a little less intensity, in part because it's

615
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 5: become normalized.

616
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 3: But also I.

617
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 5: Said it at the time, it was justified. It was

618
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 5: just a fi a ball. They were not going to

619
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 5: get him a Scottie Pippen. They were not going to

620
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 5: get him a Shaquie O'Neal, except for the older version

621
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 5: that they got him, which was, you know, not the

622
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 5: right player at the right time. He was never gonna

623
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 5: have that guy in Cleveland. Cleveland couldn't get him. And

624
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 5: that's another thing that's changed in the modern era is

625
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 5: that because players stayed even in smaller markets that we

626
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 5: now look at as like not so desirable. Sorry Cleveland,

627
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 5: Sorry Oklahoma, sorry a few other places, players now feel like, well,

628
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 5: I don't have to stay here, I can go. Players

629
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 5: back then did not feel that freedom, and so they

630
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 5: did stay and it did and then as a result,

631
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 5: it gave those teams a better opportunity to keep trying

632
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 5: to build around them fail try again. Now the clock

633
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,959
Speaker 5: is ticking from day one, and that's only right, and

634
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 5: so you know, look for competitive balance reasons, I would

635
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 5: rather have seen Durant at that time go to Boston,

636
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 5: which was one of the other teams that was in consideration,

637
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 5: rather than take a team that was already kind of

638
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 5: a super team and make it like in one of

639
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 5: the greatest teams of all time. I would have rather seen,

640
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 5: for competitive balance sake, him go to a team that

641
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 5: he could have taken from good to contender. But again

642
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 5: that's not for me to say. And the fact is this,

643
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 5: if we're gonna judge players overall for their legacy purposes,

644
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 5: for top five purposes, which was your premise on two things?

645
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 5: What did you do individually? How gaudy were the statsu

646
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 5: put up? Where are you on the all time rankings

647
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 5: and scoring and assists and rebounds and everything else? And

648
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 5: then how many finals did you make if you want

649
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 5: to go rings and judge by that. The fact is

650
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 5: Kevin Durant is one of the most incredible scores we've

651
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 5: ever seen, and considering also his size and his body

652
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 5: type and everything, he is truly unique. He is one

653
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 5: of one. He is an elasticized version of Kevin Garnett

654
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 5: with more skills, with more ball handling and more shooting.

655
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 5: And he has won two titles and he may win another,

656
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 5: and I think we will ultimately judge that the broader

657
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 5: outline then, oh, he left this team because he lost

658
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 5: to that team. Like I think those details will eventually

659
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 5: fade from the narrative, as they call it, and we'll

660
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 5: think more about what he achieved, because ultimately, it's about

661
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 5: what you achieved. It's not about how you got there.

662
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 5: It's what did you do with the ten to twelve

663
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 5: to fifteen years that you had. What did you do individually?

664
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 5: What did you do to impact winning? What did you

665
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 5: do to win at the highest level?

666
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: Mike, Yeah, I'm not certain if Metal Larc Media has

667
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: a scroll yet, but if they do, if they don't

668
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: get on it, and if they do, put this on

669
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: the scroll.

670
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 3: Howard Beck just called playing with Russell Westbrook.

671
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: Russell Westbrook is like licking an envelope.

672
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 5: It's not exactly That's why.

673
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, listen, I didn't say it, you said it. I

674
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 3: meant to play with.

675
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: When you go to just peeled it off and boom,

676
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 2: Steph Curry, you peel it off.

677
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 3: There it is.

678
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 5: I'm just saying, you know, where were these people? Why

679
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 5: didn't they invent that decades ago?

680
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 6: Right?

681
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 5: Why did it take? So this seems obvious?

682
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 3: So right? Playoff playing games? Beck yeah, Beck no.

683
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 6: Beck yes, yes, yes listen Lebron Lebron's Steph hold on

684
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 6: a quick follow up to that Lebron Steph one game

685
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 6: to make it into the playoffs would do NBA Finals

686
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 6: type numbers?

687
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: Beck yeah, Beck yeah, yeah, yes, hell yeah.

688
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 5: Are you kidding that that game might do better numbers

689
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 5: than some of the like Lakers heat games from last September. Again,

690
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 5: given time of year or whatever, it will certainly do

691
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 5: better numbers then probably a lot of playoff games over

692
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 5: the years have done, or maybe certain all star games

693
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 5: like take take the worst of the most important. How

694
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 5: about this, It will definitely do better numbers than calvs.

695
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 5: Spurs did in two thousand and seven in the final

696
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 5: Lebron versus Steph. Not for all the marbles, but but

697
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 5: but for winner go home effect. It's not exactly that

698
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 5: one gets the seventh seed and the other one has

699
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 5: to play one more game, but the stakes are really

700
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 5: high in the play in you can't afford a single misstep, Well,

701
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 5: you can afford maybe one misstep, and this not the

702
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 5: second one. Now you're out seven eight. But listen, think

703
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 5: about how many different great features we've already gotten out

704
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 5: of this one. We may well get Steph versus Lebron

705
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 5: just to stay in the damn postseason. Then on top

706
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 5: of that, we have the Washington Wizards, who are not

707
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 5: a great team but are fabulously entertaining and do have

708
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 5: one of the most unique players in history in Russell

709
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 5: Westbrook and a phenomenal score and Bradley Beal, who in

710
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 5: any other year would have just been long gone. And

711
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 5: they they may get into this thing and make the

712
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 5: first round that much more fun. So we have all

713
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 5: these stars who are going to be involved who might

714
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 5: not have been. And we've had three four weeks here

715
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 5: where it was still worth watching what the ninth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth,

716
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 5: and even thirteenth place teams were doing, and they actually

717
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 5: still had to try it rather than pull the plug,

718
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 5: because they were close enough that they had to go

719
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 5: for it. And even if you don't think tanking's a

720
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 5: big deal, however you feel about that, just the fact

721
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 5: that more teams were engaged and cared and we're going

722
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 5: all out down the stretch in a way that we

723
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 5: have not seen. Is a net plus for the league.

724
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 5: And if that means by the way that a team

725
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 5: makes the playoffs that only won in a normal season,

726
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 5: like thirty five out of eighty two, find so be it.

727
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 5: I don't care. I know some people say cheapen is

728
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 5: the regular season on this You know what, The seventh

729
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 5: and eighth seeds have historically been cannon fodder anyway. So

730
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,959
Speaker 5: if they were a forty two win team that got

731
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 5: smoked in the first round by the one seed, or

732
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 5: if they're a thirty five win team that got smoked

733
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 5: in the first round by the number one seed, I

734
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 5: don't care. I like, just give me a reason to

735
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 5: make the latter parts of the regular season meaningful, and

736
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 5: then the playing games themselves. It's gonna be like March Madness.

737
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 5: Every game is gonna feel like the weight of the

738
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 5: world is on it. And that's a good thing.

739
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 3: It's a great thing. Two more, We'll get you out

740
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 3: of here quickly.

741
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 2: The NBA doesn't want Utah or Phoenix or Denver in

742
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 2: the NBA finals.

743
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 3: Beck yeah, bech no, bech No, and they want the

744
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 3: Lakers Clippers.

745
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 5: Like, it's funny when we do this what the league

746
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 5: would want to see. I mean, listen, there's some part

747
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 5: of the league's marketing arm that obviously is gonna want

748
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 5: the best ratings combination every time, or as David Stern

749
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 5: once said, the ideal Lakers, the ideal finals would be

750
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 5: the Lakers versus the Lakers, which, by the way, at

751
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 5: the at the time he said that, that was in

752
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 5: the midst of the Shaq Kober and I was covering

753
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 5: that team, and I took it two ways. I'm like,

754
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 5: is he actually saying the Lakers versus the Lakers because

755
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 5: it's great ratings or is he actually like, is this

756
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 5: a like a meta commentary in the fact that the

757
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 5: Lakers are actually against the Lakers all the time because

758
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 5: Shaq and Kobeer tried to kill each other. I was

759
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 5: never sure if he meant that on multiple levels or

760
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 5: if that was just me. Yeah, listen that you obviously

761
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 5: think there's there are certain matchups and certain markets that

762
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 5: are better for ratings than others. But if you think

763
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 5: about it more broadly, it's in the league's best interest

764
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 5: that the Milwaukee Bucks the Phoenix Suns, like the Phoenix

765
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,439
Speaker 5: is not a small market, It's like mid mid size market.

766
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 5: Milwaukee's a smaller market. Obviously, that those that those franchise

767
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 5: can thrive and those fan bases can be engaged and

768
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 5: have belief that their teams can contend. Also, because you know,

769
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 5: if Jiannis had been the next one to walk away,

770
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 5: if yet another small market team or a cold weather

771
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 5: area lost its star and these teams never make the

772
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 5: finals eventually, I think that has a net negative impact

773
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 5: on the league because fan interest in those markets can

774
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 5: understandably wane. If you feel like you never have any hope,

775
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 5: if you feel like the Stars never want to come here,

776
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 5: when they do come here through the draft, we lose

777
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 5: them seven years later, that that's not good for the

778
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 5: overall health of the league. So yeah, easy thing to

779
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 5: say Lakers versus Lakers or Lakers versus Nicks, But you know,

780
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 5: Suns versus Bucks or Jazz versus Bucks is not necessarily

781
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 5: the worst thing for the league in Abriokers.

782
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: Sounds good, Mike, two more line, Nicks winning one playoff

783
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 2: series will mean more to the city of New York

784
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 2: than the Nets making it to the NBA Finals and

785
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: losing Beck Yeah, Beck yeah yeah.

786
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 5: And listen, as you can see with my my virtual

787
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 5: back theath the Brooklyn Bridge here, like I'm broadcasting here

788
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 5: from Brooklyn. I'm a mile and a half from Barclays Center.

789
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 5: I've been here for seventeen years. Fellas, there are certain

790
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 5: things that are very, very clear, even though there was

791
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 5: a spike in Nets gear when they got to Brooklyn,

792
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 5: and especially like the kids, like my daughter's fifteen, the

793
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 5: Nets get here, she was like six and a half

794
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 5: or something. I saw a lot of her friends. The

795
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 5: kids right that generation is like, oh, we've got our

796
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 5: own team. Now they're wearing their gear. I saw a

797
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 5: lot of Nets gear this first few years, also because

798
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 5: it was cool and it was trendy and the black

799
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 5: and white looked sharp and all that. But has this

800
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 5: ever been close to the Nets taking over and even

801
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 5: during a time when the Knicks have obviously gone through.

802
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 5: Hell no, It's like the Knicks are entrenched over generations.

803
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 5: I mean that generations of families obviously, you know, decades

804
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,720
Speaker 5: in this city. And yeah, they haven't won since fifty

805
00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 5: years ago, but that still resonates, and the nineties still resonate,

806
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 5: and the Knicks have just been here longer. You know.

807
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 5: It's it's like with the Clippers and the Lakers, Like

808
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 5: the Clippers have been there a lot longer than the

809
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 5: Nets have been in New York City, And when the

810
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 5: Nets were in New Jersey, nobody cared like literally like

811
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 5: a Lakers Nets Finals, which I covered, like the building

812
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 5: was not sold out, you know, there were a lot

813
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 5: of empty seats during the finals at that awful arena.

814
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 5: They if the Nets are ever going to have a

815
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 5: footprint in terms of fan base that I don't want

816
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 5: to say rivals the Knicks because it's not going to

817
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 5: be equal, but if they ever want to have a

818
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 5: substantial footprint or at least be the team of Brooklyn

819
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 5: as opposed to most Brooklyn fans Brooklyn NBA fans still

820
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 5: being Knicks fans, it's gonna take generations, and it's gonna

821
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 5: take a lot of winning, and it's gonna take the

822
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 5: Nets being great to for for years and you know,

823
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 5: generations growing up on them to make that kind of dent.

824
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 5: Because you can just look at La and it's different

825
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 5: there too. Lakers have a thousand championship banners up. The

826
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 5: Knicks do not. But the Lakers hold on that market

827
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 5: is so strong, and again, the Clippers were obviously run

828
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 5: horribly for most much of their time there, but it's

829
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 5: just really hard. It's hard to displace the team that's

830
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 5: been there longer with a richer history.

831
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 2: Howard Back check out his latest column, his latest article

832
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 2: Sports Illustrated cover story, and also senior writer Sports Illustrated,

833
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 2: co host of The Crossover Podcast with Chris Mannix, an

834
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 2: analyst on Sirius xm MBA.

835
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 3: You were fantastic at Beck.

836
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, bech No, it was great, fantast Thank you for

837
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 2: doing this, by the way, appreciate it.

838
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 3: Take care, guys, Mike, that was fantastic. I love Howard Beck.

839
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 3: His information is great. He's a great writer.

840
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,919
Speaker 2: The entire time, I must be honest, I was thinking

841
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 2: about fucking Howard Johnson's.

842
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 3: Ho Jo's.

843
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,399
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about the restaurants. I'm talking about the Mets,

844
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 2: their basement, Hojo stupodity,