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Speaker 1: This is the Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio every One.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Kelly and I'm Mike Lynch, and we're here Monday's,

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Speaker 1: Wednesdays and Thursday's exploring the big money issues in the

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Speaker 1: world of sports, talking to some of the biggest players

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Speaker 1: in the industry. And one of the most interesting and

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Speaker 1: important stories we and many others have been following is

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Speaker 1: the highly publicized and long running lawsuit between members of

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Speaker 1: the U S women's national soccer team and the US

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Speaker 1: Soccer Federation. It's all about equal treatment and equal pay.

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Speaker 1: This month, players have agreed to settle claims over working

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Speaker 1: conditions and they're gonna look to appeal ruling related to pay.

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Speaker 1: As I mentioned, long running really captures this. Here's what

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Speaker 1: Megan Rapino, arguably the best known star in the women's game,

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Speaker 1: said last July. I think that we can do a

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Speaker 1: lot more, a lot more quickly. I think that it

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Speaker 1: is a complicated issue, and I think sometimes we get

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Speaker 1: in the weeds about it. You can't see the force

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Speaker 1: for the trees when you know big sponsors can just

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Speaker 1: write the check. These are some of the most powerful corporations,

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Speaker 1: not just in sports, but in the world, and have

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Speaker 1: so much weight that they can throw around. UM, and

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Speaker 1: I think that they just need to get comfortable throwing

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Speaker 1: it around. And that's making Rappino, speaking on Meet the

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Speaker 1: Press in July of t nineteen, shortly after another big

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Speaker 1: win for the women's national team. Well, one person who

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Speaker 1: has been right in the middle of all this Cardel Spangler.

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Speaker 1: She's a partner at Winston and Strawn. She joins us

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Speaker 1: from Chicago. This is the law firm that has represented

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Speaker 1: the US women's national soccer team in this legal fight. Cardel.

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Speaker 1: Really nice to have you with Lynch and me. As

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Speaker 1: I said, we've been following the story very closely. Twists

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Speaker 1: and turns to say the least, but this is a

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Speaker 1: big moment, an important moment, not the last part of

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Speaker 1: the fight, but a big deal. Tell us what we

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Speaker 1: need to know about where we are right now. UM. Sure, Well,

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Speaker 1: I think long running first is an appropriate description of

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Speaker 1: this of this matter. UM. As many of your viewers

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Speaker 1: may know, this actually started almost four and a half

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Speaker 1: years ago when we first filed charges of discrimination with

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Speaker 1: the e o C. So that was in two thousand sixteen. UM,

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Speaker 1: and you know this fight is still going on. UM,

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Speaker 1: But this is a big, big step forward, UM in

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Speaker 1: resolving the working conditions claims. So for your listeners, that

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Speaker 1: means UM claims around charter flights and playing surfaces like

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Speaker 1: grass versus turf, and hotel accommodations. You know, the women

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Speaker 1: have taken a big step forward and being treated at

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Speaker 1: least equally to the members of the men's national team.

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Speaker 1: And so cardell, I know this an unsettled part of

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Speaker 1: this equation here and that is an equal compensation. Tell

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Speaker 1: me why the judge denied that and what is happening

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Speaker 1: going forward from there. Yeah, so this is a little

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Speaker 1: bit of background. UM. The claims that we've filed on

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Speaker 1: behalf of UM of these champion women. We're really twofold. One. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Part of it was the pay discrimination claims, so we

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Speaker 1: alleged that the players had been denied equal pay and

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Speaker 1: we believe that that is that that is true, UM.

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Speaker 1: And then the second part of that was the working

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Speaker 1: conditions claims, so that not only were they not being

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Speaker 1: paid equally, but they weren't being treated equally with respect

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Speaker 1: to other terms and conditions of employment light as they said,

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Speaker 1: you know, playing surfaces and hotel accommodations and professional support

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Speaker 1: and other things. UM. The judge had a split ruling

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Speaker 1: in May of this year on whether or not UM

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Speaker 1: the pay claims and the working conditions claims should go

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Speaker 1: to trial, and he ruled on the pay claims UM

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Speaker 1: that the case of should should not go to trial

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Speaker 1: UM and effectively you know, terminated that pending appeal UM

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Speaker 1: for you know a few different reasons, UM, but largely

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Speaker 1: he didn't find, you know, that the players had put

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Speaker 1: forth enough evidence at this point to be able to

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Speaker 1: move their pay climes forward. He did, however, find that

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Speaker 1: the players put forth enough evidence UM at this point

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Speaker 1: litigation to move forward to a trial on their working

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Speaker 1: conditions claims. UM. So I just wanted to make sure

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Speaker 1: that we were clear on those two parts. So Cardell,

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Speaker 1: let's go back a step, but if we can, because

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Speaker 1: this in some ways is so high profile. Obviously you

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Speaker 1: come at this from the perspective of a very experienced

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Speaker 1: lawyer around a much broader view of the world than

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Speaker 1: just sports. You know, you've you've worked on pharmaceutical cases

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Speaker 1: and all sorts of discrimination cases. Tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit about how you got into this. I have to say,

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Speaker 1: this has to be a cool assignment, and I want

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Speaker 1: to know sort of how you got into it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a great case, UM. And I've been

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Speaker 1: very privileged to have worked on it throughout its life.

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Speaker 1: So from the very very beginning, UM, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I got involved, UM And I will tell you when

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Speaker 1: I got involved, it wasn't clear to me that this

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Speaker 1: was something that could go forward because it wasn't clear

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Speaker 1: to be that US Soccer actually employed both the men's

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Speaker 1: players and the women's players, which is really critical in

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Speaker 1: a case where you're alleging violations of the statutes that

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Speaker 1: were claiming right UH to Title seven and the Equal

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Speaker 1: Pay Act. But it became pretty clear that US Soccer

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Speaker 1: in fact employees both the women's national team players and

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Speaker 1: the men's national team players. UM. And so when that

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Speaker 1: became clear UM, and Jeffrey Tessler, my my co lead

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Speaker 1: on this case, also a partner at Winston and Straun UM,

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Speaker 1: asked me to get involved. He's a sports lawyer. He

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Speaker 1: does a lot of UM, various types of sports litigation,

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Speaker 1: but not as much on the employment side. And I'm

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Speaker 1: an employment UM specialist employment law specialists, so I looked

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Speaker 1: at it from the employment law perspective. UM. And you know,

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Speaker 1: with the team decided that this was a case that

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Speaker 1: was really viable and terms of holding UM a sports

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Speaker 1: organization accountable for paying its male and female players UM

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Speaker 1: equally because they perform equal work at least equal work UM,

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Speaker 1: and that they should also be treated equally in connection

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Speaker 1: with all the other terms and conditions of employment. So

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Speaker 1: that's how I got involved back in two thousand sixteen,

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Speaker 1: really as an employment law specialist and trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out if this was a case that that could be

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Speaker 1: brought forward in the court. So, the pay structure between

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Speaker 1: the men and women, from my understanding, is different. The

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Speaker 1: women have fixed salaries and the men get only get

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Speaker 1: paid if they play and they have bonuses, but the

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Speaker 1: women do not have bonuses. Is that correct, UM, Well,

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Speaker 1: there's been some changes to the pay structures over time,

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Speaker 1: but that is a generally accurate way of UM of

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Speaker 1: stating at the women UM have a some of the

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Speaker 1: women all of them have a salary and bonuses on

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Speaker 1: top of that. And the men generally have bonuses UH

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Speaker 1: minimums for certain games played and then additional bonuses if

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Speaker 1: depending on whether they win, lose, retie and so card

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Speaker 1: I mean obviously publicity and the and I guess the

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Speaker 1: profile of the team has risen dramatically. It was high

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Speaker 1: in but by nineteen you know, when you have Rapino

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Speaker 1: is arguably one of the best known athletes in the world.

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Speaker 1: I mean sort of her signature move, you know, throwing

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Speaker 1: her arms up. This is this is where I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: disappointed that we're doing a podcast because you would see

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Speaker 1: me right now throwing my arms up. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: I mean she became both, you know, a pre eminent spokesperson,

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Speaker 1: a lightning rod, it became political. How does that play

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Speaker 1: into a case like this, you know, sort of the

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Speaker 1: public and the political aspects of it. Does it help

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Speaker 1: does it hurt? On balance? Yeah, that's a that's a

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Speaker 1: great question. You know, from the legal perspective. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: we try very hard to focus on, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: what will resonate with with the judge and ultimately with

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Speaker 1: a jury, and some of that may take into account,

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Speaker 1: you know, the public piece of it, A lot of

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Speaker 1: it quite frankly doesn't. But the publicity around it, even

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Speaker 1: the political nature around it, UM, has been I think,

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Speaker 1: on balance, really important because it highlights that even these

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Speaker 1: incredibly famous, accomplished um, you know, champion women you know,

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Speaker 1: have to sue their employer UM and you know endure

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Speaker 1: and I will I use that word deliberately endure UM

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Speaker 1: a year's long legal battle to try to get what

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Speaker 1: they are entitled to under the law. UM. And so

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Speaker 1: I think that's important for your everyday worker UM to

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Speaker 1: know that while it is not necessarily in the battle, UM,

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Speaker 1: it's one that you can take on, UM and one

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Speaker 1: that you should take on if you believe that you

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Speaker 1: are not being treated appropriately, you know, with your by

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Speaker 1: your employer. UM. So it's it's it's tough. It's tough

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Speaker 1: to say how that ultimately UM plays out, you know,

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Speaker 1: in terms of the court battle. But I think in

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Speaker 1: the court of public opinion, it has been really important

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Speaker 1: for the sports world and UM, you know, the work

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Speaker 1: world in general for these women to be uh so

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Speaker 1: UM generous with their time, with their efforts and with

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Speaker 1: their uh with their strategy, with everything to move this

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Speaker 1: matter forward. Cardinal Beck. In May, President elect Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: tweeted out to US soccer equal pay now or else

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Speaker 1: when I'm president, you can go elsewhere for World Cup funding.

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Speaker 1: Is that taking it's just just a Rara speech or

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Speaker 1: is that something that might rattle US Soccer a little bit. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's a great question, and I guess you have to

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Speaker 1: ask US Soccer uh that question. UM. We certainly hope

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Speaker 1: that that is that was not a ra ra um speech. UM.

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Speaker 1: This is important. Uh. These women have proven over and

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Speaker 1: over again, uh that they are the best in the

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Speaker 1: world at what they do. UM. They bring in more

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Speaker 1: revenue to US Soccer. UM. They their publicity, their profile

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Speaker 1: is higher than anyone else um in the US soccer universe.

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Speaker 1: So they they are not asking to be given anything.

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Speaker 1: They have earned what they are asking for. UM. And

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Speaker 1: so I am hopeful that uh the potentially raw ross speech,

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Speaker 1: but hopefully it's not UM, well for you know, US soccer. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, into action on the pay client CARDI what

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Speaker 1: role do you think, especially knowing corporations that the way

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Speaker 1: you do, having worked again across the landscape when it

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Speaker 1: comes to employment law and fairness around compensation, what role

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Speaker 1: do corporations as sponsors play here? You know, we've heard

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Speaker 1: Megan Rapino and others talk about the fact that this

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Speaker 1: isn't part of solvable problem by the corporations who ultimately

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Speaker 1: support these sports and support women's soccer specifically what's the

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Speaker 1: public aspect of that, what's the legal aspect of that?

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Speaker 1: In your estimation, the legal aspect of it is, let's

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Speaker 1: put it this way. We actually spent a little time

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Speaker 1: with a couple of the of the of the sponsors

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Speaker 1: in the litigation. We actually depose a couple of the

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Speaker 1: of the answers UM, and they were important depositions UM

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Speaker 1: in the sense that UH to the extent that anyone

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Speaker 1: was claiming that the women UH do not bring UH

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Speaker 1: equal value, that sponsors are not interested in a sponsoring

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Speaker 1: only the women's team, that if they're really basically drafting

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Speaker 1: off of the men's team, that UH was laid to

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Speaker 1: waste UM. That the sponsors are very interested in the

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Speaker 1: women's team UM in particular UM. And because of that,

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Speaker 1: So taking now this outside of the legal piece of it, UM,

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Speaker 1: there's a role I think for them to play in

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Speaker 1: UM saying to US Soccer that you know, equal pay,

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Speaker 1: equal working conditions are so important to them as sponsors

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Speaker 1: that if UM that is not achieved by US Soccer,

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Speaker 1: that there could be some ramifications. So it's dislike with

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Speaker 1: news and sponsors or UM corporations and UH and and

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Speaker 1: they're advertising dollars. All of those things matter in the

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Speaker 1: end because it means money UM in US soccer's coffers, UM,

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Speaker 1: and so uh, you know, I think it's important. It's

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Speaker 1: important for sponsors, as Megan said at the top of

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Speaker 1: your program, UH to UM, think about what kind of

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Speaker 1: influence they can have outside of the legal UM uh

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Speaker 1: fear to help move some of these really important issues forward.

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Speaker 1: And I think we've seen some of them do that,

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Speaker 1: and I think, as Megan said, you know, we would

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Speaker 1: courage more of them to do, saying Cardinal, I have

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Speaker 1: three daughters, They're all in their thirties right now, so

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Speaker 1: I'm very sensitive to this issue. Why are we still

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Speaker 1: talking about this in the year and will be? Will

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Speaker 1: we be talking about it in the year? I mean,

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Speaker 1: if why are we still talking about this? I really

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Speaker 1: wish I knew the answer to that. I think we'd

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Speaker 1: all be better off if there were some silver bullet

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Speaker 1: UM that you know, could be fired to resolve this issue. UM.

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Speaker 1: But you know you're talking about, in particularly in certain industries,

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Speaker 1: very deep seated beliefs about the value that women bring

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Speaker 1: to something like sports, UM, and they have been undervalued

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Speaker 1: and underappreciated for many many many years, and that's not

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Speaker 1: going to be resolved instantaneously. Unfortunately. I wish that were

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Speaker 1: the case, UM, But I think what we're seeing now

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Speaker 1: is the culmination of decades and decades of UM devaluing

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Speaker 1: an entire group of people, and unfortunately that is going

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Speaker 1: to take a really long time to resolve. This is

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Speaker 1: one step forward, but there's gonna have to be a

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Speaker 1: lot of these steps forwards, um, in order to ultimately

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Speaker 1: get there. So, cardell, as we wrap up a mean,

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Speaker 1: maybe on a slightly optimistic note, I do think about,

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Speaker 1: you know, this decision, which obviously is one in a

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Speaker 1: series that that you're hopeful for, UM. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I think about the outpouring of you know, both grief

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Speaker 1: and hope in the passing of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who

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Speaker 1: obviously fought so valiantly around these issues as a lawyer

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Speaker 1: and then obviously as a Supreme Court justice. Does it

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Speaker 1: feel like as awful a year as it has been

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Speaker 1: in so many regards that we may look back on

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Speaker 1: this as something of a year where maybe things didn't

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Speaker 1: get solved, that they at least move forward in a

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Speaker 1: more meaningful way. Well, I guess we'll have to see,

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Speaker 1: we'll have to see what this, what the future holds,

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Speaker 1: and and and how people do look back, you know,

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Speaker 1: on this on this period of time. But I would

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Speaker 1: say say this, UM, I always am deeply encouraged by

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Speaker 1: people who are willing to fight, because fight is not easy, right,

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Speaker 1: It takes a toll, um. And I think that what

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Speaker 1: we've seen in is that people are willing to fight

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Speaker 1: on all kinds of different fronts, for all kinds of

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Speaker 1: different issues, UM. And the only way that we're going

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Speaker 1: to get lasting, effectual change is for people to to

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Speaker 1: fight for what they believe in. And we've seen that

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Speaker 1: over and over and over again. So I do think

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Speaker 1: that there will be some lasting effect of that, not

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Speaker 1: just on this front, but on lots of others. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I hope that you know, people take that fighting

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Speaker 1: spirit forward into one and beyond so that we can

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Speaker 1: start to see even more change. Well, we certainly appreciate

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Speaker 1: your time. We should also note, UM, that we have

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Speaker 1: reached out to Latham and Watkins. They are representing US

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Speaker 1: Soccer on the other side of this litigation and negotiation.

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Speaker 1: They did give a statement, uh to Bloomberg. This is

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Speaker 1: according to Jamie Wine, one of the partners. There were

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Speaker 1: please the US Soccer and the Women's national team players

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Speaker 1: were able to work collaboratively to resolve the non compensation

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Speaker 1: claims their ongoing litigations. Throughout the new negotiations, Latham sought

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Speaker 1: to implement the vision of US Soccer's new leadership to

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Speaker 1: reinforce a strong relationship between it and the w n T,

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Speaker 1: the women's national team. The settlement reflects US Soccer's continuing

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Speaker 1: commitment to equal treatment of the senior national teams. We

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Speaker 1: hopefully we'll hear from Latham and Watkins on the other

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Speaker 1: side of that on this program next week. This is

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Speaker 1: obviously a very important issue and uh, as Cardel said,

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Speaker 1: it's not over yet, so lots more to talk about. Cardell,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much. Happy holidays to you, best of

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Speaker 1: luck going forward on this. As I said, and I've

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Speaker 1: said that number of times on this program, it's a

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Speaker 1: really important issue and we're we're glad you're able to

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Speaker 1: spend some time with us. Thank you, thanks for having me,

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Speaker 1: and you can catch our podcast right here every Monday,

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Speaker 1: Wednesday and Thursday. And as I mentioned, next Monday, we

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Speaker 1: expect to have the other side of this argument, getting

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Speaker 1: into what equal pay looks like the argument around equal

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Speaker 1: pay and equal treatment from US Soccer's perspective. We will

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Speaker 1: have Latham and Watkins weighing in on that in the meantime.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Kelly. Find me on Twitter at Jason Kelly,

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Speaker 1: newsmum Mike Lynch. You can follow me at Lynch e

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Speaker 1: w CVB, and you're listening to Bloomberg Business of Sports

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Speaker 1: from Bloomberg Radio around the world.