1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:21,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome to a special set of episodes of The 2 00:00:21,316 --> 00:00:25,556 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab. The now global spread of coronavirus is affecting 3 00:00:25,556 --> 00:00:29,476 Speaker 1: all of us. This disease has brought a host of medical, economic, 4 00:00:29,516 --> 00:00:32,876 Speaker 1: and political problems, but it's also given us a ton 5 00:00:32,916 --> 00:00:36,076 Speaker 1: of uncertainty and anxiety, which are beginning to have an 6 00:00:36,196 --> 00:00:40,436 Speaker 1: enormous negative impact on our collective while being but whenever 7 00:00:40,476 --> 00:00:43,596 Speaker 1: I'm confused or fearful, I remember that looking for answers 8 00:00:43,716 --> 00:00:46,476 Speaker 1: in evidence based science is always the best way to go, 9 00:00:47,076 --> 00:00:52,636 Speaker 1: and that's where I'm hoping this podcast can help. One 10 00:00:52,676 --> 00:00:55,036 Speaker 1: of the most common questions I've gotten from listeners about 11 00:00:55,076 --> 00:00:57,956 Speaker 1: how to handle this awful COVID nineteen crisis is how 12 00:00:57,956 --> 00:01:00,836 Speaker 1: we can all protect our relationships during this crazy time. 13 00:01:02,796 --> 00:01:05,676 Speaker 1: Lots of us are facing the completely novel situation of 14 00:01:05,716 --> 00:01:08,516 Speaker 1: being forced to shelter in place with our partners, and 15 00:01:08,556 --> 00:01:10,356 Speaker 1: while it's really good to be with the people we 16 00:01:10,436 --> 00:01:14,036 Speaker 1: love during a scary period, it can also be really, 17 00:01:14,076 --> 00:01:17,756 Speaker 1: really tough and way more aggravating than I expected, which 18 00:01:17,796 --> 00:01:21,236 Speaker 1: is kind of ironic. I mean, I've dreamed about having 19 00:01:21,276 --> 00:01:23,676 Speaker 1: some work related stuff get canceled just so I could 20 00:01:23,716 --> 00:01:25,796 Speaker 1: stay home and have some quality time with my husband. 21 00:01:26,316 --> 00:01:28,396 Speaker 1: But I was thinking fuzzy socks and a nice glass 22 00:01:28,396 --> 00:01:31,756 Speaker 1: of wine some weekend. Being forced to shelter in place 23 00:01:31,796 --> 00:01:34,716 Speaker 1: for months was not part of the fantasy. It's much 24 00:01:34,756 --> 00:01:38,596 Speaker 1: harder to prioritize our marriages while also running a babysitting service, 25 00:01:38,876 --> 00:01:42,396 Speaker 1: or a middle school or an elderly care facility. What 26 00:01:42,436 --> 00:01:44,316 Speaker 1: does science say we can do to make sure we 27 00:01:44,356 --> 00:01:47,596 Speaker 1: get out of this mess with our marriages? Intact to 28 00:01:47,596 --> 00:01:49,756 Speaker 1: help me figure out best practices for love in the 29 00:01:49,756 --> 00:01:52,116 Speaker 1: time of COVID, I put a call out to one 30 00:01:52,156 --> 00:01:56,196 Speaker 1: of my favorite relationship experts. I am Eli Finkel, a 31 00:01:56,196 --> 00:01:59,356 Speaker 1: professor at Northwestern University. I'm in the psychology department and 32 00:01:59,476 --> 00:02:02,196 Speaker 1: the Kellogg School of Management, and I am the author 33 00:02:02,316 --> 00:02:04,796 Speaker 1: of The All or Nothing Marriage. So Eli, today, I 34 00:02:04,796 --> 00:02:07,996 Speaker 1: wanted to start with the following question. If absence makes 35 00:02:07,996 --> 00:02:10,836 Speaker 1: the heart grow fonder, what does force togetherness in a 36 00:02:10,876 --> 00:02:14,196 Speaker 1: horrible pandemic due to relationships? Well, I suspect an average 37 00:02:14,196 --> 00:02:16,316 Speaker 1: it makes them worse. What's sort of good about it 38 00:02:16,516 --> 00:02:19,676 Speaker 1: is that it affords new opportunities to try to make 39 00:02:19,716 --> 00:02:22,316 Speaker 1: things even better. And so let's talk through what's really happening. 40 00:02:22,396 --> 00:02:24,876 Speaker 1: What are the particular stressors we're all facing in our 41 00:02:24,916 --> 00:02:29,076 Speaker 1: relationships right now. Yeah, I mean relative to what life 42 00:02:29,156 --> 00:02:31,916 Speaker 1: felt like a month ago, I would say almost all 43 00:02:31,916 --> 00:02:35,236 Speaker 1: of us have a higher level of stress, at least 44 00:02:35,236 --> 00:02:38,476 Speaker 1: when it comes to things like worrying about the health 45 00:02:38,516 --> 00:02:41,076 Speaker 1: of ourselves and our loved one, worrying about the state 46 00:02:41,076 --> 00:02:43,796 Speaker 1: of the economy in general, and our own personal livelihood 47 00:02:43,836 --> 00:02:46,916 Speaker 1: in particular. Again, maybe it's not true for one hundred 48 00:02:46,956 --> 00:02:48,916 Speaker 1: percent of us, but almost all of us are facing 49 00:02:48,956 --> 00:02:52,436 Speaker 1: additional amounts of rather significant stress. And I'm guessing when 50 00:02:52,476 --> 00:02:55,276 Speaker 1: you put two individual people who are really stressed out together, 51 00:02:55,716 --> 00:02:59,036 Speaker 1: that can't be good for a romantic relationship. Yeah, so 52 00:02:59,396 --> 00:03:01,036 Speaker 1: it can be the case that I'm going through a 53 00:03:01,036 --> 00:03:03,436 Speaker 1: stressor and you're not going through a stressor. In fact, 54 00:03:03,596 --> 00:03:06,676 Speaker 1: I think this commonly happens in relationships. It's indeed, one 55 00:03:06,676 --> 00:03:09,556 Speaker 1: of the nice things about relationships is if you have 56 00:03:09,556 --> 00:03:12,676 Speaker 1: a significant other that you're going through life with, you 57 00:03:12,716 --> 00:03:14,956 Speaker 1: guys can serve as sort of buffers for each other. 58 00:03:15,036 --> 00:03:17,196 Speaker 1: And you have a major deadline at work, I can 59 00:03:17,236 --> 00:03:19,716 Speaker 1: step up the amount of responsibility I'm taking for the children. 60 00:03:20,076 --> 00:03:23,116 Speaker 1: But yes, this particular blend of stress or this love 61 00:03:23,116 --> 00:03:27,756 Speaker 1: in the time of the coronavirus thing is hitting almost 62 00:03:27,796 --> 00:03:30,676 Speaker 1: everybody at exactly the same time, and that has the 63 00:03:30,756 --> 00:03:34,316 Speaker 1: downside of adding a whole lot of stress at the 64 00:03:34,316 --> 00:03:36,476 Speaker 1: exact same time when our partner might not have as 65 00:03:36,556 --> 00:03:39,556 Speaker 1: much bandwidth as we wish he or she had. It 66 00:03:39,596 --> 00:03:42,156 Speaker 1: has the upside of we often have a pretty good 67 00:03:42,156 --> 00:03:44,236 Speaker 1: sense of what our partner's going through, which isn't the 68 00:03:44,236 --> 00:03:46,436 Speaker 1: case with all stress, and so we have psychologists must 69 00:03:46,436 --> 00:03:49,076 Speaker 1: have seen this before, right, What actually happens to romantic 70 00:03:49,076 --> 00:03:52,276 Speaker 1: relationships during these stressful times. One of my favorite studies 71 00:03:52,556 --> 00:03:55,316 Speaker 1: is the very famous study of Hurricane Hugo. This is 72 00:03:55,356 --> 00:03:59,596 Speaker 1: a nineteen eighty nine hurricane, and what the researchers did 73 00:03:59,876 --> 00:04:02,636 Speaker 1: is they compared the counties that were harder hit and 74 00:04:02,636 --> 00:04:04,716 Speaker 1: the counties that weren't harder hit, and they found that 75 00:04:04,716 --> 00:04:07,116 Speaker 1: there was a surge in the divorce rate, which may 76 00:04:07,116 --> 00:04:08,996 Speaker 1: not be all that surprising. People were dealing with a 77 00:04:09,156 --> 00:04:11,836 Speaker 1: huge amount of additional stress, often not only the hurricane 78 00:04:11,836 --> 00:04:14,596 Speaker 1: itself but the financial issues associated with it. But what 79 00:04:14,636 --> 00:04:18,996 Speaker 1: I found especially enlightening is yes, a lot of the 80 00:04:19,116 --> 00:04:22,796 Speaker 1: relationships that had to endure something like that ended in divorce. 81 00:04:23,196 --> 00:04:25,636 Speaker 1: There was also a big boost in the marriage rate 82 00:04:25,956 --> 00:04:28,716 Speaker 1: and in the fertility rate, that is the number of 83 00:04:28,716 --> 00:04:31,316 Speaker 1: people who decided to have a baby. So it looks 84 00:04:31,316 --> 00:04:34,596 Speaker 1: like these sorts of stressors have a major impact on 85 00:04:35,036 --> 00:04:38,436 Speaker 1: people's lives and people's relationships. But the news isn't all bad, 86 00:04:38,596 --> 00:04:40,076 Speaker 1: and so I guess the one thing we can do 87 00:04:40,116 --> 00:04:42,356 Speaker 1: is to try to scientifically figure out what makes for 88 00:04:42,516 --> 00:04:44,996 Speaker 1: good stress and bad stress and relationships and the kinds 89 00:04:44,996 --> 00:04:47,756 Speaker 1: of things we can do to boost things right now 90 00:04:47,756 --> 00:04:49,676 Speaker 1: when things are so stressful. So I want you to 91 00:04:49,676 --> 00:04:51,516 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about what you work through in 92 00:04:51,516 --> 00:04:53,956 Speaker 1: your book, which is the kinds of features that make 93 00:04:53,996 --> 00:04:57,436 Speaker 1: for a happy and unhappy relationship. Because if my take 94 00:04:57,476 --> 00:04:58,836 Speaker 1: on your book is a lot of what a good 95 00:04:58,836 --> 00:05:01,596 Speaker 1: marriage boils down to is having the right kinds of expectations, 96 00:05:01,876 --> 00:05:04,516 Speaker 1: that's right. And I'd like to contrast what I say 97 00:05:04,516 --> 00:05:06,236 Speaker 1: in the book and what I believe is relevant here 98 00:05:06,396 --> 00:05:08,676 Speaker 1: from the broader thing that we often hear, which is 99 00:05:08,676 --> 00:05:12,476 Speaker 1: stopic aspecting so much your expectations are too high. That's 100 00:05:12,596 --> 00:05:15,996 Speaker 1: pretty good advice, but not as a general principle, right, 101 00:05:16,036 --> 00:05:19,076 Speaker 1: if that advice were find the ways that you and 102 00:05:19,156 --> 00:05:21,956 Speaker 1: your partner are really struggling right now and try to 103 00:05:21,956 --> 00:05:24,116 Speaker 1: tamp back a little bit on those expectations. Then that 104 00:05:24,116 --> 00:05:27,116 Speaker 1: advice is terrific. But what the advice, when it's applied 105 00:05:27,156 --> 00:05:31,316 Speaker 1: more generally, tends to forget is that in the absence 106 00:05:31,356 --> 00:05:35,236 Speaker 1: of expectations, we usually aren't even trying. And so one 107 00:05:35,236 --> 00:05:38,316 Speaker 1: of the things that I find exciting about how marriage 108 00:05:38,316 --> 00:05:40,876 Speaker 1: exists today. We're here in twenty twenty, and we can 109 00:05:40,916 --> 00:05:43,396 Speaker 1: contrast what marriage was like in nineteen fifty or even 110 00:05:43,396 --> 00:05:45,836 Speaker 1: eighteen hundred or whatever, and what we can see is 111 00:05:45,876 --> 00:05:48,556 Speaker 1: that there are opportunities for a different sort of connection 112 00:05:48,596 --> 00:05:51,676 Speaker 1: today than existed in the past. And the only way 113 00:05:51,716 --> 00:05:54,436 Speaker 1: you can really try to achieve those sorts of connections 114 00:05:54,556 --> 00:05:58,396 Speaker 1: is by bringing these expectations, bringing certain understandings about what 115 00:05:58,436 --> 00:06:01,436 Speaker 1: a marriage is supposed to be. And so, for example, 116 00:06:01,676 --> 00:06:04,196 Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds, people really didn't even marry for love, 117 00:06:04,476 --> 00:06:06,836 Speaker 1: and even by around nineteen fifty, when they married for love, 118 00:06:06,876 --> 00:06:10,116 Speaker 1: they weren't really looking to the marriage for personal growth 119 00:06:10,356 --> 00:06:12,916 Speaker 1: or self expression to the same degree as now. And 120 00:06:12,956 --> 00:06:15,276 Speaker 1: so what we see in twenty twenty, this is independent 121 00:06:15,316 --> 00:06:19,876 Speaker 1: of the coronavirus, that the best marriages today are particularly good, 122 00:06:20,276 --> 00:06:23,116 Speaker 1: even while at the same time, the average marriage is 123 00:06:23,236 --> 00:06:25,956 Speaker 1: worse than it was, say, fifty years ago. And the 124 00:06:26,036 --> 00:06:28,356 Speaker 1: reason why is because we're trying to look to our 125 00:06:28,356 --> 00:06:31,236 Speaker 1: marriage to do these much more difficult, much more emotionally 126 00:06:31,236 --> 00:06:33,836 Speaker 1: complicated sorts of things. And for those of us who 127 00:06:33,916 --> 00:06:37,876 Speaker 1: get it right, the satisfaction is very very strong, but 128 00:06:37,916 --> 00:06:41,436 Speaker 1: the pressure can also be really high, which is maybe tough. 129 00:06:41,836 --> 00:06:44,276 Speaker 1: The pressure is high, and a lot of us are 130 00:06:44,396 --> 00:06:46,556 Speaker 1: unhappy today with the marriage that would have been totally 131 00:06:46,596 --> 00:06:48,916 Speaker 1: adequate for our grandparents. And so I want to dig 132 00:06:48,916 --> 00:06:50,916 Speaker 1: into this historical difference. It's one of the things I 133 00:06:50,916 --> 00:06:53,156 Speaker 1: found most fascinating when I first read your book. So 134 00:06:53,356 --> 00:06:55,596 Speaker 1: give me a sense in our last pandemic. So let's 135 00:06:55,836 --> 00:06:58,276 Speaker 1: scroll back to the flu of nineteen eighteen. What was 136 00:06:58,316 --> 00:07:00,836 Speaker 1: the typical marriage like back then and what were those 137 00:07:01,236 --> 00:07:03,836 Speaker 1: How were those expectations different than what we expect now? 138 00:07:03,996 --> 00:07:06,996 Speaker 1: The marriage was very, very different. So there existed by 139 00:07:07,036 --> 00:07:12,116 Speaker 1: that time of how marriage could be, which was that 140 00:07:12,596 --> 00:07:15,876 Speaker 1: the man would go off and do his breadwinning and 141 00:07:15,876 --> 00:07:18,756 Speaker 1: the woman would stay and do her homemaking, and that 142 00:07:18,756 --> 00:07:20,676 Speaker 1: that was the vision, and that they would love each other, 143 00:07:20,836 --> 00:07:23,076 Speaker 1: and that was sort of the basis or foundation of marriage. 144 00:07:23,276 --> 00:07:27,316 Speaker 1: That idea existed circa nineteen eighteen, but almost no couples 145 00:07:27,316 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 1: in America could actually make that work. The only time 146 00:07:30,276 --> 00:07:33,036 Speaker 1: really that most Americans would be able to do that was, 147 00:07:33,436 --> 00:07:35,876 Speaker 1: you know, maybe the thirty years following the Second World War, 148 00:07:35,956 --> 00:07:38,796 Speaker 1: when a high school graduate boy could go out and 149 00:07:38,796 --> 00:07:40,956 Speaker 1: get a union card and actually kind of support a 150 00:07:40,956 --> 00:07:43,156 Speaker 1: family of five. But that wasn't true before, and it 151 00:07:43,196 --> 00:07:46,636 Speaker 1: wasn't true now. And so the idea that your spouse 152 00:07:46,676 --> 00:07:48,796 Speaker 1: was supposed to help on a voyage of self discovery 153 00:07:48,836 --> 00:07:51,756 Speaker 1: like you would have been laughed at in nineteen eighteen America, 154 00:07:51,876 --> 00:07:55,156 Speaker 1: but not so today. Whereas right now, some of the expectations, 155 00:07:55,156 --> 00:07:56,956 Speaker 1: even in the midst of this crisis, are like, you know, 156 00:07:57,076 --> 00:07:59,196 Speaker 1: you're not completing me, or you're not making me a 157 00:07:59,196 --> 00:08:03,076 Speaker 1: better person. Yeah, yeah, Look, in fairness, we don't have 158 00:08:03,116 --> 00:08:06,116 Speaker 1: the full information yet about how people are responding. And 159 00:08:06,356 --> 00:08:10,036 Speaker 1: it is difficult to be not only confronted with a 160 00:08:10,076 --> 00:08:12,956 Speaker 1: major stressor, but to be confronted with a major stressor 161 00:08:13,676 --> 00:08:16,596 Speaker 1: with somebody else who also is forced into close isolation 162 00:08:16,636 --> 00:08:19,316 Speaker 1: with you. And so you're dealing with lots of things 163 00:08:19,356 --> 00:08:22,116 Speaker 1: at once. And some marriages will actually really flourish under 164 00:08:22,156 --> 00:08:24,716 Speaker 1: those circumstances that like some of us, that's like the 165 00:08:24,876 --> 00:08:26,996 Speaker 1: thing we've always wanted. We're sick of having to do 166 00:08:26,996 --> 00:08:28,836 Speaker 1: all this travel, or having to work so many hours, 167 00:08:28,876 --> 00:08:31,116 Speaker 1: or having to work three jobs. All we've been wanting 168 00:08:31,116 --> 00:08:32,556 Speaker 1: for the last three years is a little bit of 169 00:08:32,636 --> 00:08:35,196 Speaker 1: quiet time together and lo and behold, through the worst 170 00:08:35,196 --> 00:08:37,356 Speaker 1: of circumstances, we get it, and now look how happy 171 00:08:37,356 --> 00:08:39,756 Speaker 1: we are. But on average, I don't think that's the 172 00:08:39,756 --> 00:08:41,676 Speaker 1: story we're going to see. On average, I think the 173 00:08:41,716 --> 00:08:46,116 Speaker 1: story is going to be about how incredibly disrupted our 174 00:08:46,156 --> 00:08:51,636 Speaker 1: lives are and the amount of forced alone time together. 175 00:08:52,116 --> 00:08:55,116 Speaker 1: But not under the best of circumstances. So it seems 176 00:08:55,116 --> 00:08:57,596 Speaker 1: like one of the changing expectations is just what we're 177 00:08:57,596 --> 00:08:59,676 Speaker 1: doing when we spend time together. You know, I know 178 00:08:59,836 --> 00:09:01,876 Speaker 1: my husband and I are used to like going out 179 00:09:01,916 --> 00:09:03,716 Speaker 1: to a nice restaurant to have a meal, and now 180 00:09:03,756 --> 00:09:06,236 Speaker 1: we're spending time together where he's teaching in the next 181 00:09:06,316 --> 00:09:08,436 Speaker 1: room and on podcast zooming in one room. But it 182 00:09:08,556 --> 00:09:11,676 Speaker 1: just feels different. So talk about what these changes to 183 00:09:11,756 --> 00:09:14,396 Speaker 1: our daily routines and our daily activities together might be 184 00:09:14,436 --> 00:09:16,756 Speaker 1: doing and how it might be stressful. Most of us 185 00:09:16,916 --> 00:09:23,396 Speaker 1: underappreciate the role that luck or circumstances play and how 186 00:09:24,236 --> 00:09:27,716 Speaker 1: happy or unhappy we are in our relationship. It could 187 00:09:27,796 --> 00:09:31,836 Speaker 1: be that the way that you have forced to change 188 00:09:31,956 --> 00:09:34,156 Speaker 1: your life and he has been forced to change his 189 00:09:34,236 --> 00:09:37,196 Speaker 1: life is a recipe for bliss, and that really all 190 00:09:37,236 --> 00:09:41,556 Speaker 1: he's wanted is to have some nice, educational quality time 191 00:09:41,596 --> 00:09:44,876 Speaker 1: with his children, and all you've wanted is to do 192 00:09:44,996 --> 00:09:48,396 Speaker 1: some podcast recording and then walk outside into the familial 193 00:09:48,436 --> 00:09:51,876 Speaker 1: bliss that is taking place in your living room. And 194 00:09:52,316 --> 00:09:55,956 Speaker 1: those people lucky enough to have those sorts of preferences 195 00:09:55,956 --> 00:10:00,316 Speaker 1: will obviously handle the stress and the quarantine better. Most 196 00:10:00,356 --> 00:10:02,436 Speaker 1: of us have kind of built a life and gotten 197 00:10:02,516 --> 00:10:04,636 Speaker 1: used to a life that has elements that we like 198 00:10:04,756 --> 00:10:07,396 Speaker 1: in it. I mean, you talked about enjoying dinner dates. 199 00:10:07,556 --> 00:10:09,836 Speaker 1: I think most of us, at least with the means, 200 00:10:10,436 --> 00:10:12,396 Speaker 1: like to do that. We like to go to the theater, 201 00:10:12,476 --> 00:10:15,116 Speaker 1: and we like to talk about those things. And we 202 00:10:15,436 --> 00:10:19,516 Speaker 1: have an enormous restriction on the opportunities that we have 203 00:10:19,596 --> 00:10:22,156 Speaker 1: on the range of different activities that we can do together. 204 00:10:22,756 --> 00:10:26,436 Speaker 1: And so can we find a way to continue to 205 00:10:26,436 --> 00:10:29,156 Speaker 1: connect at the same level, possibly even more, even though 206 00:10:29,156 --> 00:10:31,716 Speaker 1: we're now confined to our homes. Yeah, and this raises 207 00:10:31,716 --> 00:10:33,916 Speaker 1: a different question, which is I think that all of 208 00:10:33,916 --> 00:10:36,756 Speaker 1: this is stressful for people who are incredibly privileged, but 209 00:10:36,996 --> 00:10:39,316 Speaker 1: it's much worse for people who are facing like real 210 00:10:39,396 --> 00:10:42,876 Speaker 1: economic challenges and real financial challenges during this time. The 211 00:10:42,876 --> 00:10:49,236 Speaker 1: biggest concern by far is mass sickness and death. But 212 00:10:49,596 --> 00:10:53,196 Speaker 1: second to that, I think we're going to see a 213 00:10:53,236 --> 00:11:00,396 Speaker 1: pretty significant exacerbation of what was already significant inequality. People 214 00:11:00,476 --> 00:11:03,476 Speaker 1: like me and other people that I know are weathering 215 00:11:03,516 --> 00:11:06,836 Speaker 1: this thing, okay, and we have the internet access that 216 00:11:06,876 --> 00:11:09,556 Speaker 1: our kids require to do school the way that the 217 00:11:09,636 --> 00:11:11,756 Speaker 1: teachers are trying to get them to do school, and 218 00:11:11,796 --> 00:11:15,556 Speaker 1: we have the money. It's particularly relevant in the context 219 00:11:15,556 --> 00:11:19,796 Speaker 1: of relationships because it's true that divorce rates have been skyrocketing, 220 00:11:20,636 --> 00:11:24,276 Speaker 1: but really only among people with less education. I'm talking 221 00:11:24,316 --> 00:11:27,076 Speaker 1: about American data here. So in the sixties and the seventies, 222 00:11:27,076 --> 00:11:30,116 Speaker 1: divorce rates skyrocketed for people with a college degree, without 223 00:11:30,156 --> 00:11:32,636 Speaker 1: a college degree, without a high school degree. But starting 224 00:11:32,676 --> 00:11:35,956 Speaker 1: around nineteen eighty you see this huge shift people who 225 00:11:36,036 --> 00:11:39,196 Speaker 1: lack a high school degree. The divorce rates are still skyrocketing. 226 00:11:39,196 --> 00:11:41,036 Speaker 1: And that's the case even though fewer and fewer of 227 00:11:41,076 --> 00:11:43,276 Speaker 1: them are marrying in the first place. But if you 228 00:11:43,276 --> 00:11:45,476 Speaker 1: look at people with a college degree and you compare 229 00:11:45,796 --> 00:11:48,636 Speaker 1: us today versus the people like us in nineteen eighty, 230 00:11:48,876 --> 00:11:51,356 Speaker 1: our divorce rates are way down. Like we seem to 231 00:11:51,356 --> 00:11:55,116 Speaker 1: be building an average a pretty effective system that's working 232 00:11:55,196 --> 00:11:57,956 Speaker 1: for us in terms of marriage. And one of the 233 00:11:57,996 --> 00:12:00,876 Speaker 1: major reasons why it's working for us and not working 234 00:12:00,876 --> 00:12:02,796 Speaker 1: for people who don't have the same amount of resources 235 00:12:02,916 --> 00:12:05,396 Speaker 1: is how easy is it to build a marriage, especially 236 00:12:05,436 --> 00:12:08,356 Speaker 1: a sort of self expressive marriage, when you are working 237 00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:10,636 Speaker 1: three different job at three different Starbucks and you're trying 238 00:12:10,636 --> 00:12:11,956 Speaker 1: to wake up at four in the morning to do 239 00:12:11,996 --> 00:12:13,716 Speaker 1: some tutoring for your kid before you go off to 240 00:12:13,756 --> 00:12:17,436 Speaker 1: catch the buses. It's not a system that works well. Now, 241 00:12:17,436 --> 00:12:19,436 Speaker 1: how's that going to change? As a result of the 242 00:12:19,476 --> 00:12:23,676 Speaker 1: coronavirus and the job loss and the economic calamity. It's 243 00:12:23,676 --> 00:12:26,556 Speaker 1: going to hit the worst off people the hardest, and 244 00:12:26,636 --> 00:12:28,636 Speaker 1: so all of this is pretty bad. But when we 245 00:12:28,676 --> 00:12:30,516 Speaker 1: get back from the break, I'm going to demand that 246 00:12:30,516 --> 00:12:32,356 Speaker 1: Eli get us out of this mess. I'm going to 247 00:12:32,436 --> 00:12:34,436 Speaker 1: have Eli walk us through some of the ways we 248 00:12:34,476 --> 00:12:37,556 Speaker 1: can set the right expectations and make sure we're protecting 249 00:12:37,556 --> 00:12:40,996 Speaker 1: our love interests in this time of coronavirus. The Happiness 250 00:12:41,036 --> 00:12:48,956 Speaker 1: Lab will be right back. Sheltering in place during a 251 00:12:48,996 --> 00:12:52,396 Speaker 1: deadly pandemic can put a huge strain on our romantic relationships, 252 00:12:52,836 --> 00:12:55,196 Speaker 1: but there are active strategies that all of us can 253 00:12:55,236 --> 00:12:58,396 Speaker 1: take right now to protect our partnerships. And that's what 254 00:12:58,436 --> 00:13:02,036 Speaker 1: I wanted social psychologists and relationships expert Eli Finkel to 255 00:13:02,076 --> 00:13:05,516 Speaker 1: share with us next. Even when we're stuck in an 256 00:13:05,516 --> 00:13:10,116 Speaker 1: incredibly stressful time basically in something that loosely approximates a 257 00:13:10,156 --> 00:13:12,916 Speaker 1: home prison, it's not quite the same, but we're enforced 258 00:13:12,956 --> 00:13:16,796 Speaker 1: quarantine or forced isolation, there are things that if we 259 00:13:16,836 --> 00:13:19,916 Speaker 1: assume that there's a general decency to our partner and 260 00:13:19,916 --> 00:13:23,956 Speaker 1: a general decency some foundation somewhere in the relationship, there 261 00:13:23,996 --> 00:13:26,876 Speaker 1: should be things that we're able to do to cultivate 262 00:13:26,916 --> 00:13:30,836 Speaker 1: a sense of strength in the relationship, not just mitigating 263 00:13:30,876 --> 00:13:35,156 Speaker 1: or battling away downsides, but really playing up to the upsides. 264 00:13:35,276 --> 00:13:37,396 Speaker 1: And it may be the sorts of things like Boy, 265 00:13:37,436 --> 00:13:39,476 Speaker 1: when we were dating, we used to play games, and 266 00:13:39,476 --> 00:13:41,836 Speaker 1: we used to have split a bottle of wine, and 267 00:13:41,876 --> 00:13:43,876 Speaker 1: then the kids came and we sort of just forgot 268 00:13:43,916 --> 00:13:46,716 Speaker 1: that that was fun. Like go back through the repertoire 269 00:13:46,796 --> 00:13:49,236 Speaker 1: and remember, what are the things that we've enjoyed together 270 00:13:49,356 --> 00:13:52,916 Speaker 1: that because of the pace of regular life we forgot 271 00:13:52,916 --> 00:13:55,996 Speaker 1: how to do. And it might be hard, given the 272 00:13:56,036 --> 00:13:58,756 Speaker 1: amount of stress, to sort of kick back with wine 273 00:13:58,756 --> 00:14:01,836 Speaker 1: and try to relax, but it is certainly worth an attempt. 274 00:14:02,116 --> 00:14:05,636 Speaker 1: And so we can use this really incredibly unfortunate situation 275 00:14:05,876 --> 00:14:08,436 Speaker 1: to find ways to connect or reconnect with our partner 276 00:14:08,876 --> 00:14:12,076 Speaker 1: that at least make it possible that for some of us, 277 00:14:12,196 --> 00:14:15,636 Speaker 1: we will end this Corona chaos with a deeper and 278 00:14:15,716 --> 00:14:18,196 Speaker 1: stronger connection with our partner than when we started. Because 279 00:14:18,236 --> 00:14:20,116 Speaker 1: that's I think really great news, right, which is if 280 00:14:20,156 --> 00:14:22,236 Speaker 1: we can figure out the things in our relationship that 281 00:14:22,276 --> 00:14:25,396 Speaker 1: are really good and reform those habits. Now, ideally those 282 00:14:25,436 --> 00:14:27,756 Speaker 1: habits won't go away when we're through this mess. They'll 283 00:14:27,756 --> 00:14:30,276 Speaker 1: stick around. Yes, ideally they won't go away, but at 284 00:14:30,276 --> 00:14:34,676 Speaker 1: the very least, it'd be nice to sort of reboot 285 00:14:34,756 --> 00:14:37,956 Speaker 1: everyday life. I presume will eventually reboot everyday life, and 286 00:14:38,156 --> 00:14:41,156 Speaker 1: doing it from a place of strength with our spouse 287 00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:44,556 Speaker 1: or a significant other is going to be a massive difference. 288 00:14:44,596 --> 00:14:47,396 Speaker 1: And if it turns out that then a year. Hence 289 00:14:47,956 --> 00:14:50,916 Speaker 1: things are chaotic and we forget that some of these 290 00:14:50,916 --> 00:14:53,356 Speaker 1: things were important to us. We can at least look 291 00:14:53,356 --> 00:14:55,756 Speaker 1: back and say, well, why do we need a global 292 00:14:55,916 --> 00:14:59,916 Speaker 1: pandemic to figure out or to remember that sharing a 293 00:14:59,956 --> 00:15:03,356 Speaker 1: glass of wine and playing cards together is a recipe 294 00:15:03,396 --> 00:15:05,636 Speaker 1: for laughter and good sex. And so you mentioned the 295 00:15:05,756 --> 00:15:07,676 Speaker 1: kind of wine and the cards and the good sex. 296 00:15:07,716 --> 00:15:09,996 Speaker 1: But I mean other couples of my friends have said 297 00:15:10,036 --> 00:15:13,236 Speaker 1: that this time of preschooling their kids together can also 298 00:15:13,316 --> 00:15:15,436 Speaker 1: be a form of bonding right like they feel like 299 00:15:15,476 --> 00:15:17,836 Speaker 1: in their relationship the thing that drives them together are 300 00:15:17,836 --> 00:15:19,436 Speaker 1: the kids, and this is a time that they can 301 00:15:19,436 --> 00:15:21,156 Speaker 1: focus on the kids in a way that we've never 302 00:15:21,196 --> 00:15:22,756 Speaker 1: been able to before because we've all been at work 303 00:15:22,796 --> 00:15:27,276 Speaker 1: and they've been at school. Yes, that's true. The challenge 304 00:15:27,676 --> 00:15:34,956 Speaker 1: of parenting in the time of coronavirus is that play 305 00:15:34,996 --> 00:15:37,676 Speaker 1: dates are gone. There are now virtual play dates, but 306 00:15:37,716 --> 00:15:40,356 Speaker 1: in general, if you're being responsible, your playdates are probably 307 00:15:40,396 --> 00:15:43,636 Speaker 1: done even with the nextoor, neighbors or good friends, and 308 00:15:44,116 --> 00:15:48,036 Speaker 1: that leaves children and their parents feeling cooped up and 309 00:15:48,036 --> 00:15:50,396 Speaker 1: wondering how to feel the time, and fighting over how 310 00:15:50,436 --> 00:15:53,716 Speaker 1: much screen time people get, and so yes, it is 311 00:15:53,836 --> 00:15:57,036 Speaker 1: immensely stressful and frustrating, and there will be times when 312 00:15:57,036 --> 00:15:59,316 Speaker 1: we want to pull our hair out, and we can 313 00:15:59,356 --> 00:16:02,836 Speaker 1: be excused for feeling that way. But at the same time, 314 00:16:03,636 --> 00:16:06,676 Speaker 1: if we never take a moment to say, yes, I 315 00:16:06,796 --> 00:16:10,036 Speaker 1: don't like these circumstances. I wish they were different. But 316 00:16:10,236 --> 00:16:13,276 Speaker 1: how cool is it that it's the five of us 317 00:16:13,396 --> 00:16:16,356 Speaker 1: here and that there's no distraction, and we're going to 318 00:16:16,636 --> 00:16:19,436 Speaker 1: watch a movie together and we're going to work on 319 00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:23,636 Speaker 1: arithmetic together. It really is an exciting opportunity, and when 320 00:16:23,636 --> 00:16:26,276 Speaker 1: our lives get busy again, we might miss it. And 321 00:16:26,356 --> 00:16:29,076 Speaker 1: so one piece of advice is to leverage the upsides 322 00:16:29,156 --> 00:16:32,236 Speaker 1: both in our circumstances but also in our relationships. But 323 00:16:32,356 --> 00:16:34,196 Speaker 1: you've also given the advice that we need to do 324 00:16:34,276 --> 00:16:36,836 Speaker 1: the opposite too, which is to kind of make sure 325 00:16:36,876 --> 00:16:39,516 Speaker 1: we're paying attention to the not so great parts of 326 00:16:39,516 --> 00:16:44,116 Speaker 1: our relationships. Yes, help to identify for yourself and together 327 00:16:44,156 --> 00:16:47,196 Speaker 1: with your partner, what is it that we're good at 328 00:16:47,236 --> 00:16:49,796 Speaker 1: in these circumstances, Like, we didn't ask for these, we 329 00:16:49,836 --> 00:16:51,876 Speaker 1: didn't want these, but here we are. What are we 330 00:16:51,916 --> 00:16:53,876 Speaker 1: good at? How can we make the most of those? 331 00:16:53,916 --> 00:16:56,516 Speaker 1: And then you're absolutely right, What are we bad at? 332 00:16:56,756 --> 00:16:59,276 Speaker 1: And how can we hold it together? Because we're going 333 00:16:59,316 --> 00:17:01,756 Speaker 1: to be locked in like this at least for weeks 334 00:17:01,756 --> 00:17:04,996 Speaker 1: and possibly for months, and if we don't figure out 335 00:17:05,036 --> 00:17:08,316 Speaker 1: a way to mitigate or reduce the amount of frustration 336 00:17:08,956 --> 00:17:10,996 Speaker 1: is going to get bad here and here I don't 337 00:17:10,996 --> 00:17:13,916 Speaker 1: mean to be cavalier when I say it could get 338 00:17:13,956 --> 00:17:18,756 Speaker 1: physically bad, Like I'm actually concerned that alongside various other 339 00:17:18,836 --> 00:17:22,276 Speaker 1: consequences of the virus and the quarantine, that one of 340 00:17:22,276 --> 00:17:25,276 Speaker 1: them will be a spike in domestic violence. There is 341 00:17:25,316 --> 00:17:27,756 Speaker 1: a huge amount of stress and a huge amount of 342 00:17:27,916 --> 00:17:31,276 Speaker 1: conflict and very few routes to escape. And I am 343 00:17:31,316 --> 00:17:34,436 Speaker 1: concerned that not fifty percent of couples or anything like that, 344 00:17:34,476 --> 00:17:36,916 Speaker 1: but that we'll see some type of problem like that. 345 00:17:37,236 --> 00:17:39,876 Speaker 1: And so we need to attend not only to the 346 00:17:39,916 --> 00:17:42,276 Speaker 1: places where we can really connect with our partner maybe 347 00:17:42,316 --> 00:17:44,796 Speaker 1: it's the wine and the game of cards, but also 348 00:17:44,876 --> 00:17:49,116 Speaker 1: to those specific handful of things that are real danger spots. 349 00:17:49,276 --> 00:17:51,436 Speaker 1: So how do we handle those dangerous spots? Because I'm 350 00:17:51,436 --> 00:17:53,516 Speaker 1: sure there are lots of folks and couples listening who 351 00:17:53,556 --> 00:17:56,316 Speaker 1: are like yeah, communications not really great, or like yeah, 352 00:17:56,476 --> 00:17:58,276 Speaker 1: kind of you know, doubling down on my husband when 353 00:17:58,276 --> 00:18:00,196 Speaker 1: I know I'm kind of nagging him not so great, Like, 354 00:18:00,876 --> 00:18:03,076 Speaker 1: how do you actually address those? Well, there's three options. 355 00:18:03,356 --> 00:18:05,636 Speaker 1: One is we can have the sort of conversation that 356 00:18:05,796 --> 00:18:08,436 Speaker 1: solves the problem. Oh, I didn't realize that was frustrating 357 00:18:08,476 --> 00:18:10,996 Speaker 1: to you. Then for sharing with me. Now it's better, 358 00:18:11,036 --> 00:18:13,116 Speaker 1: and that does happen. I'm not claiming that that's going 359 00:18:13,116 --> 00:18:16,436 Speaker 1: to be the solution to everything. There's another possibility. A 360 00:18:16,516 --> 00:18:21,156 Speaker 1: second option is to expect less, to say, you know what, 361 00:18:21,596 --> 00:18:24,956 Speaker 1: there's a virus spreading the world and killing people, and 362 00:18:24,996 --> 00:18:28,596 Speaker 1: we are stuck here in close proximity with some recalcitrant 363 00:18:28,636 --> 00:18:31,876 Speaker 1: little people. Of course we're going to feel frustrated. It's 364 00:18:31,956 --> 00:18:35,956 Speaker 1: normal to feel frustrated. I'm not going to catastrophize these 365 00:18:36,476 --> 00:18:39,476 Speaker 1: experiences to say, how did we ever end up together? 366 00:18:39,676 --> 00:18:42,556 Speaker 1: And maybe we can't be together any longer. There is 367 00:18:42,596 --> 00:18:45,396 Speaker 1: a third possibility, which is sort of related to the 368 00:18:45,396 --> 00:18:47,916 Speaker 1: second one, and it builds on this observation that I 369 00:18:47,956 --> 00:18:50,556 Speaker 1: love from Marcel Proust who says that mystery is not 370 00:18:50,596 --> 00:18:54,476 Speaker 1: about traveling to new places, but about looking with new eyes. Well, 371 00:18:54,596 --> 00:18:57,396 Speaker 1: right now the planes are grounded, the trains aren't running, 372 00:18:57,396 --> 00:18:59,836 Speaker 1: we're not traveling anywhere, so we can test his idea 373 00:18:59,956 --> 00:19:02,076 Speaker 1: like can we look with new eyes when we think 374 00:19:02,116 --> 00:19:06,756 Speaker 1: about our partner? And the research in psychology is really 375 00:19:06,756 --> 00:19:10,476 Speaker 1: promising here. That is, yes, your partners said that thing, 376 00:19:10,556 --> 00:19:13,836 Speaker 1: and yes maybe it was a little snippy, but we 377 00:19:13,916 --> 00:19:17,076 Speaker 1: have a lot of power and how we interpret what 378 00:19:17,276 --> 00:19:20,196 Speaker 1: she said or he said, we get to determine did 379 00:19:20,236 --> 00:19:23,236 Speaker 1: he or she do that because he's disrespectful and doesn't 380 00:19:23,276 --> 00:19:25,636 Speaker 1: appreciate me, Well, that's going to have consequences for your 381 00:19:25,676 --> 00:19:28,876 Speaker 1: relationship if you draw that conclusion. Or is it that 382 00:19:28,956 --> 00:19:31,036 Speaker 1: he's really overwhelmed and trying to do the best he 383 00:19:31,076 --> 00:19:34,356 Speaker 1: can in difficult situations, That too, will have consequences for 384 00:19:34,396 --> 00:19:37,196 Speaker 1: the relationship and much better ones. I love this idea 385 00:19:37,236 --> 00:19:39,076 Speaker 1: of kind of looking with new eyes. It seems like 386 00:19:39,076 --> 00:19:41,156 Speaker 1: it's part and parcel of something else you've argued for 387 00:19:41,276 --> 00:19:44,076 Speaker 1: that this is the time for love hacks in our relationship. 388 00:19:44,116 --> 00:19:46,156 Speaker 1: So talk to me about what these love hacks look like. 389 00:19:46,556 --> 00:19:50,196 Speaker 1: So love hacks have two properties. They are things that 390 00:19:50,236 --> 00:19:52,036 Speaker 1: you can do by yourself, so they don't have to 391 00:19:52,036 --> 00:19:55,356 Speaker 1: be date nights or conversations or trying to have more 392 00:19:55,396 --> 00:19:57,156 Speaker 1: sex or anything like that. The things that you can 393 00:19:57,196 --> 00:20:00,196 Speaker 1: just do to reorient how you think about things, and 394 00:20:00,956 --> 00:20:03,756 Speaker 1: they don't take much work. So the question is can 395 00:20:03,796 --> 00:20:05,876 Speaker 1: we look with new eyes at these things? And so 396 00:20:05,916 --> 00:20:07,996 Speaker 1: one of the things that I think is if we 397 00:20:07,996 --> 00:20:10,196 Speaker 1: can do it, a very very effective thing to do 398 00:20:10,436 --> 00:20:13,996 Speaker 1: is try to develop more generous explanations for why our 399 00:20:14,036 --> 00:20:16,196 Speaker 1: partner was snippy with us. But there's a range of 400 00:20:16,196 --> 00:20:18,636 Speaker 1: these things. And in fact, one of the studies from 401 00:20:18,756 --> 00:20:22,076 Speaker 1: our lab looked at this idea of trying to think 402 00:20:22,156 --> 00:20:26,196 Speaker 1: about conflict from the perspective of a neutral third party 403 00:20:26,236 --> 00:20:28,396 Speaker 1: who wants the best for everybody. And what we did 404 00:20:28,436 --> 00:20:30,436 Speaker 1: is we recruited one hundred and twenty couples from the 405 00:20:30,516 --> 00:20:33,756 Speaker 1: Chicago area and we every four months for two years, 406 00:20:33,956 --> 00:20:36,516 Speaker 1: asked them to report on the biggest fight they'd have 407 00:20:36,956 --> 00:20:39,356 Speaker 1: over the previous four months, and in the second year, 408 00:20:39,636 --> 00:20:42,876 Speaker 1: we randomly assigned half the couples to do an additional task. 409 00:20:43,276 --> 00:20:47,156 Speaker 1: They wrote for seven minutes about that conflict, but from 410 00:20:47,196 --> 00:20:50,036 Speaker 1: this neutral third party perspective, and then we tracked their 411 00:20:50,036 --> 00:20:52,556 Speaker 1: relationship quality over time. And what we saw is that 412 00:20:52,636 --> 00:20:55,636 Speaker 1: relative to people who were just in the control condition, 413 00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:57,996 Speaker 1: people who were trying to think not only about the 414 00:20:58,036 --> 00:21:00,556 Speaker 1: conflicts that they were having, but also trying to think 415 00:21:00,556 --> 00:21:03,796 Speaker 1: about them from this generous third party perspective. Their relationships 416 00:21:03,796 --> 00:21:07,196 Speaker 1: actually were better off afterward, not just in terms of satisfaction, 417 00:21:07,236 --> 00:21:09,956 Speaker 1: but also in terms of things like trust, intimacy, and 418 00:21:09,996 --> 00:21:12,636 Speaker 1: even passion. So if you use the strategy of going 419 00:21:12,636 --> 00:21:16,396 Speaker 1: all in your own relationship, yes, for sure, there's no 420 00:21:16,916 --> 00:21:20,076 Speaker 1: specific way that you have to do it. The idea 421 00:21:20,276 --> 00:21:24,196 Speaker 1: is there something that we could do together? Is there 422 00:21:24,356 --> 00:21:27,436 Speaker 1: something that would be nice. Has it been kind of 423 00:21:27,556 --> 00:21:30,476 Speaker 1: longer than it probably should be since we last had sex. 424 00:21:30,676 --> 00:21:33,396 Speaker 1: Has it been kind of longer than it probably should 425 00:21:33,396 --> 00:21:35,796 Speaker 1: be since we talked about anything other than the kids. 426 00:21:35,996 --> 00:21:38,276 Speaker 1: Has it been kind of longer than it probably should 427 00:21:38,276 --> 00:21:41,436 Speaker 1: be since we last played a game or played anything together. 428 00:21:41,836 --> 00:21:44,276 Speaker 1: For most of us, the answer to at least one 429 00:21:44,276 --> 00:21:49,236 Speaker 1: of those questions is yes, And so going all in says, Okay, 430 00:21:49,476 --> 00:21:51,396 Speaker 1: I don't have the bandwidth for this all the time, 431 00:21:51,436 --> 00:21:53,196 Speaker 1: I don't have the time for this all the time, 432 00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:55,996 Speaker 1: but I'm going to make sure it's a priority at 433 00:21:56,036 --> 00:21:58,796 Speaker 1: least some of the time, because I don't want a 434 00:21:58,876 --> 00:22:02,476 Speaker 1: marriage that always fits in to the little leftover time 435 00:22:02,556 --> 00:22:05,436 Speaker 1: slots that I give it. And that's a particularly useful 436 00:22:05,476 --> 00:22:07,356 Speaker 1: strategy right now, in part because you know, we need 437 00:22:07,396 --> 00:22:10,076 Speaker 1: to work on our relationships now during COVID more than ever, 438 00:22:10,436 --> 00:22:13,436 Speaker 1: but also a lot of us are experiencing time windfalls 439 00:22:13,476 --> 00:22:15,876 Speaker 1: that we've never had before. You know, those of us 440 00:22:15,916 --> 00:22:17,996 Speaker 1: who aren't working have lots of time. Those of us 441 00:22:18,036 --> 00:22:20,876 Speaker 1: who are working still don't aren't spending time on canute, 442 00:22:20,876 --> 00:22:22,996 Speaker 1: and often the work is like less than it was before. 443 00:22:23,076 --> 00:22:25,756 Speaker 1: Like this is a way to use our time windfall 444 00:22:25,836 --> 00:22:28,596 Speaker 1: in a super positive way for our relationships for many 445 00:22:28,636 --> 00:22:30,956 Speaker 1: of us, not the people who are shopping for eleven 446 00:22:30,996 --> 00:22:34,036 Speaker 1: dollars an hour for everybody else, but for many of us, 447 00:22:34,076 --> 00:22:37,676 Speaker 1: this is an incredible opportunity. And I think you're right. 448 00:22:37,716 --> 00:22:40,716 Speaker 1: It's a windfall that if you'd said to us a 449 00:22:40,756 --> 00:22:43,756 Speaker 1: couple months ago, you're going to have a few weeks. 450 00:22:43,836 --> 00:22:46,116 Speaker 1: It's going to be inconvenient, and it's going to be scary, 451 00:22:46,716 --> 00:22:49,836 Speaker 1: but you are going to have a suite of hours 452 00:22:49,916 --> 00:22:52,676 Speaker 1: open for you and your spouse, you and your spouse 453 00:22:52,676 --> 00:22:54,996 Speaker 1: and your children or your significant other, and you can 454 00:22:55,156 --> 00:22:57,356 Speaker 1: use that to do anything that kind of doesn't drive 455 00:22:57,396 --> 00:23:00,636 Speaker 1: you crazy. And how do you want to spend that time. 456 00:23:01,116 --> 00:23:05,036 Speaker 1: We would have been thrilled with that deal to get 457 00:23:05,036 --> 00:23:07,996 Speaker 1: a month like that or whatever. So the circumstances are terrible, 458 00:23:08,036 --> 00:23:10,836 Speaker 1: but some of the details are amazing, and boy, it 459 00:23:10,876 --> 00:23:14,836 Speaker 1: would be regrettable to miss this opportunity. And I think 460 00:23:14,836 --> 00:23:16,396 Speaker 1: it's a nice way to sum up one of the 461 00:23:16,476 --> 00:23:18,276 Speaker 1: last things you said in your Twitter feed, which is 462 00:23:18,316 --> 00:23:20,356 Speaker 1: that if you had to sum up your advice, it 463 00:23:20,396 --> 00:23:22,396 Speaker 1: would just be to tell everyone to be kind to 464 00:23:22,436 --> 00:23:24,516 Speaker 1: the people that are stuck with them in this crisis. 465 00:23:24,556 --> 00:23:28,956 Speaker 1: So sympathy and kindness generally a good strategy in life. Again, 466 00:23:29,156 --> 00:23:32,196 Speaker 1: not necessarily the one that will always protect you from exploitation, 467 00:23:32,756 --> 00:23:35,476 Speaker 1: but the one that will generally make your life better. 468 00:23:36,236 --> 00:23:40,356 Speaker 1: It's more important now than usual. It's a time when 469 00:23:40,476 --> 00:23:43,956 Speaker 1: we're all going through something pretty intense. There's no rule book, 470 00:23:44,556 --> 00:23:47,556 Speaker 1: and all of us will make some false steps, all 471 00:23:47,556 --> 00:23:49,756 Speaker 1: of us will say something that didn't come out like 472 00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:51,756 Speaker 1: we meant it, and all of us will feel frustration. 473 00:23:52,436 --> 00:23:55,156 Speaker 1: And being kind to the other members of our family, 474 00:23:55,156 --> 00:23:58,036 Speaker 1: and frankly, being kind to ourselves is a pretty good 475 00:23:58,076 --> 00:24:00,756 Speaker 1: way of making sure that the difficult stuff doesn't spiral 476 00:24:00,796 --> 00:24:03,516 Speaker 1: into something seriously bad. Are you hopeful that if people 477 00:24:03,596 --> 00:24:05,836 Speaker 1: know these tips that come from science, then we'll do 478 00:24:05,916 --> 00:24:08,316 Speaker 1: better than we've seen in past crises, like people can 479 00:24:08,356 --> 00:24:10,876 Speaker 1: really apply them. Is that push you more towards the 480 00:24:10,876 --> 00:24:13,956 Speaker 1: positive outcomes in this crisis and less towards the yucky ones? 481 00:24:14,036 --> 00:24:17,956 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think a huge amount of what happens 482 00:24:18,156 --> 00:24:21,476 Speaker 1: to relationships, A huge amount of the destruction or the 483 00:24:21,556 --> 00:24:27,796 Speaker 1: corrosion erosion maybe that happens to relationships is inattention, is 484 00:24:27,836 --> 00:24:31,396 Speaker 1: like not necessarily in attention to each other, but in 485 00:24:31,476 --> 00:24:38,436 Speaker 1: attention to slow erosion and failure to think I'm not 486 00:24:38,556 --> 00:24:42,236 Speaker 1: okay with us being thrilled on our wedding night and 487 00:24:42,356 --> 00:24:45,436 Speaker 1: like one or two percent less happy every year after that. 488 00:24:45,436 --> 00:24:47,556 Speaker 1: That eventually adds up, even if we don't notice it 489 00:24:47,596 --> 00:24:49,236 Speaker 1: in any given year, in the same way that most 490 00:24:49,276 --> 00:24:51,396 Speaker 1: of us eventually gained weight, even though we didn't notice 491 00:24:51,436 --> 00:24:54,756 Speaker 1: that we gained a given pound. And so I hope 492 00:24:54,756 --> 00:24:57,916 Speaker 1: the people listening will take a few extra minutes, a 493 00:24:57,956 --> 00:25:02,076 Speaker 1: few extra like neuronal firings, to say I do care 494 00:25:02,396 --> 00:25:05,276 Speaker 1: about my relationship, I do care about my family, and 495 00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:07,556 Speaker 1: there's something in there like I don't know which one 496 00:25:07,636 --> 00:25:10,076 Speaker 1: strategy is no, like the and tricks to make every 497 00:25:10,076 --> 00:25:12,956 Speaker 1: relationship great. But there are ways of thinking about these 498 00:25:12,996 --> 00:25:17,116 Speaker 1: things that absolutely can help the vast majority of us 499 00:25:17,196 --> 00:25:21,676 Speaker 1: have a better relationship. So there you have it, some 500 00:25:21,796 --> 00:25:24,716 Speaker 1: best practices for love in the time of COVID. I, 501 00:25:24,876 --> 00:25:26,916 Speaker 1: for one, plan to use some of Eli's strategies with 502 00:25:26,956 --> 00:25:29,636 Speaker 1: my own husband Mark. I'm going to try to double 503 00:25:29,676 --> 00:25:32,516 Speaker 1: down even more during this challenging time, and I hope 504 00:25:32,556 --> 00:25:35,396 Speaker 1: you will too, And I also hope that you'll come 505 00:25:35,436 --> 00:25:38,556 Speaker 1: back for the next special COVID nineteen episode of The 506 00:25:38,596 --> 00:25:44,356 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos. The Happiness Lab 507 00:25:44,436 --> 00:25:47,116 Speaker 1: is a Pushkin podcast. It's co written and produced by 508 00:25:47,196 --> 00:25:50,876 Speaker 1: Ryan Dilley and mastered by Evan Theola. Our original music 509 00:25:50,916 --> 00:25:54,636 Speaker 1: is written by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to Ben Davis, 510 00:25:54,876 --> 00:25:59,756 Speaker 1: Heather Fame, Carl mcgliori, Julia Barton, Neil La Belle, Jacob Weisberg, 511 00:25:59,956 --> 00:26:01,236 Speaker 1: and the rest of the Pushkin crew.