WEBVTT - Ketchup 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:09.720 Welcome to Invention, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:12.640 welcome to Invention. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:15.520 Joe McCormick. And today we have a sweet episode for you. 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:18.800 We have a salty episode for you. We have a 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:23.160 relatively slow flowing, kind of uh, kind of stachy episode 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:27.120 for nice, thick episode for you. Because today's episode is 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.720 about catch up, which I just want to go ahead 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:32.440 and put it out there. This is gonna be far 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:36.080 more interesting, far more complex, and a little bit more 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:40.520 confusing than you might anticipate. You know, I was wondering 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.720 if we should start by confessing the strange things that 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.680 we put catch up on, because you just assume everybody 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:48.960 has some strange thing they put catch upon. But I 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.600 realize I am so boring. When it comes to catch up. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.600 They go on fries for French fries, I put it today. 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:56.840 These days, I put catch up on French fries if 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:58.600 I have them, and put them on tater tots if 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.880 I have them. Um, what else? That's those are the 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:05.880 main things. Really. Um. If I'm making my own cocktail 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:09.040 sauce off, it's obviously I use ketchup as the base 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.440 for that. But um, yeah, Aside from that, I didn't. 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.000 I don't think I ever had any strange ketchup habits 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:17.399 growing up. I would I think I would occasionally take 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:19.960 a baked potato and cut it up into rounds and 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:24.840 put ketchup on that with two to the slightly slight disapproval, 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:26.760 I think of the rest of the table. But my 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:30.120 argument was, look, this is essentially the same as French fries. 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.520 We put catch up on French fries. I'm just doing 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:34.640 this to my baked potato instead of covering it in 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:36.920 butter and sour cream and what have you. How about you, 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.679 seth Do you put ketchup on soft serve? He says no, 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:44.760 My my son doesn't even put ketchup on anything. And 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.440 he's certainly at that age where you see a lot 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:50.120 of uh, you know, strange ketchup or even sort of 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:54.240 catch up first strategies like one I've definitely seen before, 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:56.280 and maybe I did see him do this when he 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.000 was younger. I was like to take a French fry, 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:01.360 dip it in the catch up, lick the ketchup off 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.760 the French fry, get the French fry again, and essentially 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:08.519 use the French fry as a soggy delivery system for 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:13.960 that sweet uh you know, sweet and vinegary and salty, uh, 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.600 you know, overpowering taste profile that is Ketchup. You know. 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.240 I was looking at the Hinz website earlier today and 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.000 I found one page where they were like they were 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.720 trying to, i think, advertise the benefits of Ketchup beyond 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:28.720 just it tasting good. And they're like, you can use 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.200 Ketchup to get your kids to eat healthy foods. Just 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.680 put Ketchup on healthy foods and then they'll eat them. 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.560 And I was thinking, I don't know what, how exactly 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:38.440 does that work? And you put ketchup on spinach and 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.560 then they spinach, you put it on sweet potatoes, and 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.560 I don't know. Uh yeah. I mean, look, I don't 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.040 have a lot of room to to talk on this 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.519 because my my son is fortunately has always been a 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.480 very good eater. But I can imagine if you're having 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.840 you're struggling just trying to get any food uh into 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.720 a young child, you you would you would turn to 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:00.400 put and ketchup on just about any thing to make 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.080 it happen. You know, we don't want to vilify ketchup 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.079 today because catch up already in many ways has a 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:09.600 pretty bad reputation, especially among foodies, and you know, people 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:13.680 have sophisticated palates. I think sometimes look at ketchup as 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:17.239 a thing that's just ruining the culinary world. It's it's 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:22.440 worldwide global homogeneity in in cuisine. Uh makes everything taste 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:26.200 the same. It just crushes individual flavor profiles of foods 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:28.440 and signals that like, you don't want to taste anything 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.440 for itself. Yeah, generally it's considered an insult to reach 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.400 for or ask for the catch up when you order 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:37.920 something at a really nice restaurant or even just a 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:42.960 passively nice restaurant. Um, unless of course, you have ordered 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:45.000 the burger and fries or some st man or of 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:48.960 fries and it comes with, say a housemaid ketchup that 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.920 is exclusively used for uh, for dipping. But then again, 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.120 you get French fries at a at a nicer place, 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.720 they're probably gonna have some other dipping options that are 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:03.080 also fantastic that deviate from the standard ketch up trope 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.080 smoked tomato, mayonnaise or something. Yeah, that's sort of thing. 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:10.000 And certainly we have more condiment possibilities available to us 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.560 now because but but for the long guest like catch up, 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.120 you know what, Like, that's what we grew up with. 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:17.800 You know that the ketchup is what you got it 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:20.000 all the fast food restaurants, and today you go to 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.960 just about any restaurant and there will be ketch up there. Um, 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.000 it's gonna be there in pumps and bottles and packets, 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.200 in slices even well, I don't know how many restaurants 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.560 are really leaning on the ketchup slices, but ketchup slices 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:35.880 do exist. Yeah, if you haven't seen it, they're like 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:39.920 the craft singles basically. Basically, someone said, you know that, 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:44.919 you know the hardened, dried ketchup that coagulates around the cap? 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.880 What have I had a whole slice of that? Wouldn't 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:49.839 that be great? I don't know, maybe it is great. 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:51.760 I have not tried it. But that's what we're gonna 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.360 be talking about today. Is is the world of ketchup? 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:58.480 Where does it come from? What is it? And why? 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:00.960 Why is it so potent? Why is it's so powerful? 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.080 It's something we all take for granted, but it has 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:07.560 an interesting story. So what is ketchup usually made of? Today? 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:10.640 When you get tomato ketchup in a bottle, your standard stuff, 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.880 you know, not the weird kind, just the standard ketchup 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.039 you get at the store, at the diner. When we 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.560 think of ketchup and we think of that that thick 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.400 red stuff you squeeze out of a m out of 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:25.680 a bottle, you're generally talking about tomato, sauce, sugar or 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:31.160 another sweetener, vinegar, salt, and some sort of proprietary blend 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:36.800 of spices and seasonings, industrial additives, maybe preservatives, something like that. Yeah, 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.159 And I think commonly your tomato element and your sugar 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:44.240 element are probably going to be tomato paste and higher 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.360 discorn syrup. Yeah, highfrid discorn serrup has of course become 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:50.400 the standards, especially here in the United States. But that 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:53.120 being said, and as we'll touch on later, like you 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.600 can find a lot of ketchups on the market, including 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.440 ones from hines that that are sweetened, say with with 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:03.040 a sugar or honey, or reduce sugar and honey. You know, 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:06.440 there are plenty of other options out there now. When 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:09.520 in previous decades, though, I think it was it was 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.320 pretty much you had the one choice right right, So 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.760 when we when we dip a fern fry and catch 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:16.720 up where we put ketch up on our you know, 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.440 our burgers are hot dogs or wantons, whatever you're you're 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.560 putting it on. You know, it brings that blessed sweet, 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.920 sour and salty taste to any bite. So it's it's 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:31.000 potent stuff. It delivers several things that we as organisms 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.279 are hardwired to crave uh and and crave it we do. 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:36.720 That's why you see some serious pump abuse sometimes at 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.359 your local fast food restaurants, you know, where they'll they'll 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:41.400 they'll fill up not one cup, not too but maybe 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:43.760 three or four just to make sure they're they're covering 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:45.800 all their ground there, you know, they have all their 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.159 options available to them, or just pump it all over 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.200 top a big pile of fries. People do that. I'm 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.599 not of that school. I'm a dipper, not a drizzler. Yeah, 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.120 I prefer to because if it's drizzled, you're gonna end 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.280 up with that one French fry that is that is 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:03.400 drowned lost to the catchup um. But then again, I 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:05.920 think that has a benefit as you you know, as 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:08.040 many of us become a little wiser as we get older, 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:10.200 and we realized we should not eat all the French 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:12.920 fries better than some of the French fries drowned and 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:16.760 become inedible, than to actually polish off the entire plate. 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:22.640 But again, ketchup has a an overpowering at times flavor profile. Uh. 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.800 And it goes really well with certain things obviously. Uh. 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.960 And it's and it's good to have an overpowering flavor 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:33.640 profile if you're eating something that is say, less than appetizing. Um. 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.040 But it's certainly gonna insult the chef if you reach 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:37.960 for it when you're having, you know, something that has 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.080 a very delicate and planned out flavor profile itself. And 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:43.840 something I should say in addition to so you mentioned 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.080 that ketchup tends it's got this trio of flavors that 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:49.440 we like in a lot of sauces. It's got sweetness, 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.680 it's got acidity or sourness, and it's got saltiness. But 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.840 it's also got this other thing that's harder to define. 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:58.800 It's the the umami flavor. It comes from the tomatoes, 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.160 for you know, from the it is from the fermentation. Uh. 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:06.400 It's this savory, you know, deliciousness kind of quality that 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.640 that's a little bit um. It's not as sharper as 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.840 easily noticeable as the other three types of flavors. But 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.480 you really value it in many foods that you like, 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:17.920 and so it shouldn't become as a surprise that, especially 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.600 in the United States, it has become such a popular condiment. 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:24.160 I see that the number kind of varies. But for instance, 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:26.800 in a two thousand fourteen article from on the National 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:31.160 Geographic website, how was ketchup invented? By Jasmine and Wiggins Uh, 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:35.240 the author sites nine percent of American households report having 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:38.400 a bottle of the stuff around. That is a I mean, 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:40.760 that's a huge number. That's a huge number. I've seen it. 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:44.160 I've seen it higher, generally by ketchup companies, and I've 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:48.040 also seen it a little lower. But I mean, you know, 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.160 without you know, arguing over the exact number, like it 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.600 is a very widespread condiment, not only here, but now 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.240 you know, in various places around the world. But yet, 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.200 there was a time before ketchup. There was a time 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:04.120 when there was no ketchup. And we're going to begin 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.800 our journey by by traveling back in time. Let's get 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.320 some time travel sound effects. Can we can we blue blue, 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:14.960 blue blup or something? All right, Well, so we're traveling back. Yes, 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.319 we're seeking that time before ketchup? Was there a time 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:22.000 before Ketchup? Yes? But also no, because I told you 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:23.880 this is gonna be a little more confused in the 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.320 might think because in a large sense we have to 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:30.400 consider the legacy of the condiment, of the sauce itself, 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.360 and to think about its inception. You know, what, what 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:35.840 does it mean to put a sauce on something? Like? 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.560 What is what is ketchup itself? You know what is 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.240 what is it essentially doing? And it's pointed out in 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.960 Pure Ketchup, a History of America's National condiment with recipes 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:49.319 by Andrew F. Smith, who who will keep coming back 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.680 to because Andrew seems to be the one of the 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:56.360 primary authorities on the history of ketchup. He's like the 0:09:56.400 --> 0:10:00.160 world Ketchup lore master. He's the l Rond of the 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:04.200 Saruman of Ketchup. Yes, but according to Smith, humans have 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:08.040 attempted to preserve foods with salt for thousands of years. 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:12.439 It retards the growth of bacteria, and salt and water 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:16.000 used like this, you know, is known as brining. Brian 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:20.240 something just right, and certain species of bacteria produce lactic acid, 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.800 which kills off harmful of that bacteria and lowers the 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:27.000 pH It also creates an environment suitable for fermentation, and 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.440 this changes the flavor. Yeah, this pickling. Yeah, And of 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:34.160 course we have pickling traditions in culture is just around 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:36.920 the world. And we can easily do an entire episode 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:40.000 just on pickling and food preserve preservation that I think 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.040 we will. Yeah, that that in and of itself is 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:44.280 a is a fascinating topic, especially when you get into 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.000 all the varied forms of it um from like burying 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.280 a bunch of dead birds in the earth. You know 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:53.280 too well, the earth does play a role in a 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:57.200 number of different fermentation uh uh strategies that were developed, 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:00.520 the idea of taking something, taking a few ingredients, bundling 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:02.360 it away in the darkness of the earth, and then 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.520 bringing it back up when you need it when the 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.360 time of the harvest has grown cold. But as a 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.920 Smith points out, fermented sauces were certainly used by ancient 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.320 peoples to enhance flavors in their food as well as 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:19.800 and this is key to hide unpleasant odors because you know, 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.600 a lot of times, especially in the ancient world or 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.400 any time prior to our our modern age of of 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:30.400 of food abundance and food waste. You know, you often 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.319 have you had what you had, and sometimes it might 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.200 not smell that pleasant or taste that pleasant, but it 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:38.880 was what was for dinner. Uh. It was the meal, 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.920 and you had to choke it down one way or 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:44.720 the other. Uh, And so you might need to cover 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.160 up the underlying flavor or odor. So it's when a 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.880 bottle of ketchup would have come in real handy back then, exactly. 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:53.080 And they didn't quite have ketchup certainly, But the Greeks 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.640 and the Romans used something called garum, Smith says, which 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.240 was a fermented fish sauce. It was itself a byproduct 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.640 of salting tons of foot fish as a means of 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.559 preserving those fish. Yeah, and there are modern analogs of 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:10.559 of garum. There's an Italian cuisine. There's this stuff called colatura. 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:15.160 That's this you know, salty fermented fish sauce flavor that's delicious. 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:17.880 In Asian cuisines, you've got various forms of fish sauce 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:22.319 like nonpla oyster sauces, etcetera. Yeah, exactly. So you take 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.119 some seafood you'd heavily salted, and you get an extract 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:29.960 from it. Um that is this funky, highly savory, ummi 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.000 rich salty kind of thing, and it's great. You know, 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:36.600 that stuff is great, not just in the you know, 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.800 the cuisines it's traditionally associated with, but chefs today use, 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.760 for example, Asia Southeast Asian style fish sauce in all 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:47.400 kinds of things. You'll find chefs putting uh Thai fish 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.760 sauce and beef stews and in chili and bolonnaise and 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:54.040 everything anyway anywhere you want to like boost the beefy 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.000 flavor of food. And they vary a lot, not only 0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:59.960 in their their flavor, but also in their consistency. Yeah, 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.760 it was a summer, very thick, there's a very watery 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.920 uh and and I always any anytime you visit um 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:09.840 uh you know, a new you know, Asian restaurant, do 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.160 try all of the sauces, especially the ones you are 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.880 not familiar with, just to get a good uh you know, 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:19.320 a good you know, overall of the taste sensations available. Totally. 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.360 So yes, obviously, we have a wealth of pickling traditions 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.760 from around the world. Though it's a Smith points out 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:26.520 in the media. In the medieval world, in the medieval 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:30.680 European world, the byproduct of those pickling endeavors were often 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.960 just discarded instead of being reutilized as some sort of 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:38.120 a sauce um. And uh, I have to say that 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.400 my my son does not adhere to this, as he 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.480 loves to drink down the pickle juice from the pickle jar. 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:46.680 He'll drink down the sardine oil from the sardine can. 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.560 Uh he is, he does, he does not waste any 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.360 of it. Well, first of all, I can sympathize because 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:56.160 of course pickles are delicious and and that liquid therefore 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.800 is also somewhat delicious. But second, this springs up. I 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:01.800 don't even know if we should get into this. This 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:06.040 is we probably should. Okay, I don't want to spend 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:07.959 half an hour talking about this, but I just had 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.200 to mention my favorite article of all time from my 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:14.360 hometown newspaper, the Chattanooga Times Free Press, hit Caught in 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:19.080 a Pickle Chattanooga attorney Collma friends explain strange addiction and 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.960 it's about people who can't stop drinking pickle juice. The 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:26.680 main figure in this article is a local lawyer who 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.040 tells these stories about how when he's driving home from 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.160 more he would stop at the grocery store and he'd 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.440 get a jar of pickles and take him out to 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:35.400 his car, and he dump all the pickles out in 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.000 the parking lot and just guzzle down all the juice. 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:40.680 But now he's figured out that the smarter and more 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.240 economical thing is just to buy jugs of pickle juice, 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.240 like dill pickle juice by itself. You can order it 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.720 from I don't know, various manufacturers. I guess some people 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:54.000 just add their cucumbers straight to dill pickle juice. But 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.080 there are these accompanying photos on the Times Free Press 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.560 website of this guy posing with a gallon jug of 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.240 dill pick old Brian. That's a stigious award. Yes, I 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.040 love this. Uh this, I mean I've I've I've read 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:10.560 articles about like people who are such fermentation enthusiasts that 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.960 they and and sometimes they you know, they back this 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.680 up with arguments about the you know, the health benefits 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:19.080 of fermented products, and and they'll they'll sometimes take on 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.040 like a very fermentation heavy diet. But I also have 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.760 heard just anecdotal accounts so that I think my my 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:28.680 aunt was really into crowd juice for it for a 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.840 long time, and maybe still is just just because she 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.320 liked it or for like like health remody kind of, 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:37.640 I think it was because she just like the flavor. Yeah, 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.720 well I love pickles too. I don't go that far, 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.960 but yeah, it reminds me that the Hannibal Burriss stand 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:47.320 up comedy debt where he's talking about saving the jar 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:50.040 of pickles pickled juice after all the pickles are gone, 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.800 so that he can flick it onto his grilled cheese sandwich. 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.560 I don't know this bit. It sounds smart, Yeah, like 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.000 it Basically it's like a it's it's a bit about 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.120 roommates and not one in the roommate to throw out 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:04.200 the pickle juice because the pickle st juice still has 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.360 use and it can still be flicked onto. And I 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:09.920 think that that gets down to what we're talking about here, Like, yes, 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:15.240 the the resulting h pickle juice is still still packs flavor. 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.080 It can still be used to enhance other foods. So 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:22.040 even though the you know, in the medieval uh European world, 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:27.320 people weren't that into saving their their food preparation juices, uh, 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.800 still you had traditions of creating sauces from early Greek 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.960 times onward, Europeans made sauces that were based in large 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.640 part on vinegar raging for ranging from the simple to 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:42.840 the complex, and they grew very complex in Elizabethan Britain. Uh. Sauce, 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.480 after all, is where we get the the saucer from 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:48.400 which is of course ends up being so vitally connected 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:52.360 with the t culture that grows out of Britain. It's 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.320 actually for sauce. I had no idea. Yeah. This according 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:59.320 to our ketchup expert Andrew F. Smith. All right, well, 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.200 I don't mean this is a slam against British food, 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.919 but if you are sometimes going to be consuming i 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.240 don't know, say largely bland foods in your diet, sauces 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.520 are clearly going to become pretty popular. Yeah. Yeah, and uh. 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.399 He points out that in Robert may five book The 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:21.280 Accomplished Cook, Uh, the author list thirteen sauce categories, and 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.080 each of those sauce categories can contain upwards of a 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.640 dozen different sauces that you can make to say, put 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.879 on your mutton. Yeah. Now, I don't know how this 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.720 lines up historically with the French sauce tradition, but obviously 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:35.399 that's a huge thing as well, Like you know, the 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.840 French have all these uh, French high cuisine has this 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.760 whole family system of sauces, like sauces that you make, 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.359 and then the sauces that are derived from those sauces, 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.480 the mother sauces, and the sauces you make out of them. 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.600 For example, you might make like a French brown sauce, 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.679 and then from that can be derived these vinegar based changes. Uh. 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.560 It's very complex. So that's the the European theater roughly. 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:04.480 But then also, of course, you know, across across the continent, 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:09.720 across eur Asia, you have different traditions going on. Um. 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.199 Assalted and fermented fish sauces are an ancient part of 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:17.040 Southeast Asia and as well, and you know they're they're too, 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.640 were numerous and varied in their flavor and consistency. For instance, 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:25.600 in in China, the soybean was domesticated uh by roughly 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.600 b c. E. And eventually soy sauce springs from this, 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:34.119 one of the great sauces of of human creation, the 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:38.200 ultimate savory condiment. Yeah, and then uh, you know, eventually 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.880 the Western and Eastern kingdoms of the sauce eventually meet 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.840 and during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, British and European 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:50.000 sailors were introduced to and impressed by the various soy 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.520 and fish sauces and sauces that they inevitably didn't even 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.040 really know, you know, what the ingredients were. They just 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.080 knew that when you put it on food, it was amazing. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:01.080 And they no doubt, Um, you know, we're enthralled by 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:05.160 the possibility of bringing these sauces back to to spice 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.640 up things at home that we're either bland or had 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:13.320 grown bland to their now you know, excited palate and 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.080 uh and yeah, So they encountered these things on their voyages. 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:20.359 Smith writes, quote from this culinary crucible assaulted pickled and 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:24.960 fermented foods from ancient Europe and exotic Southeast Asia. British 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:29.560 ketchup materialized during the eighteenth century. All Right, it's time 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:31.400 to take a Breakpool will be right back with more 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:38.640 on the history of ketchup. Alright, we're back, Okay, Joe 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:43.880 who invented the ketchup? Was it Sir Carmichael Ketchup? Was it? 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:46.399 Was it Baron von ketch Up? There have been names 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.400 proposed by various food historians over the years. But these 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:53.359 these proposals are definitely wrong, Like we just know for 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:56.040 a fact, like we don't know the inventor of the 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:59.960 original ketchup. But as we've been explaining someone, the quest 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.160 chin of Ketchups inventors fraught anyway, because the sauce has 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:05.399 evolved so much over time. So where do you put 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:10.040 the inventor? Ketchup seems to be a long lineage of 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:14.159 copies of copies of types of sauces, and so the 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.719 origins of Ketchup bear very little resemblance to the sauce 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:20.760 that's sold under that name in most of the world today. 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.280 But nevertheless, we will do our best to trace the 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:25.880 origins of how that sauce came to be. So when 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:30.119 you think about the characteristics of Ketchup, uh, Andrew F. 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:32.439 Smith points this out, and I think he's correct. You 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.959 try to think of the three main characteristics of ketchup, 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:38.719 but you'd probably think that it's something that's thick, something 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.600 that is sweet, and something that is made from tomatoes, right, yes, 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.520 and of course also just vitally red like so red 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.520 that that it often in our comedies and uh, you 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:54.080 know cartoons, it is a substitute for human blood yes, uh, 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:57.800 and so the origins of ketchup possessed probably none of 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.360 these qualities at all. Not made from tomatoes, not sweet, 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:05.280 not thick, not read uh. And so. In his book 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:07.960 in In Pure Ketchup and f Smith relays a number 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.000 of competing theories about the origins of ketchup, most of 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:13.720 which we now know are almost definitely wrong. A lot 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:17.840 of the older origin stories lie in Europe, like, for example, 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:21.879 that ketchup comes from the English word cavitch, which is 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:25.600 a type of fish pickled in vinegar. This and the 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:27.960 idea that this is a cognate for the French term 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:30.960 escovich a, which means like food and sauce for the 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:35.240 Spanish escabech a uh, this theory is now considered incorrect. 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:37.720 It seems generally agreed that ketchup, as we were saying 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:40.840 before the break, comes from some kind of tradition of 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.600 Asian cuisine. But while that's pretty well established, it gets 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:48.240 harder to pin down in more definite ways. In eighteen 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:52.760 seventy seven, somebody named Nas Dallas speculated that the word 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.480