1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Talking to Death is released every Friday and brought to 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: you absolutely free. But if you want ad free listening 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot 4 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: com or on Apple Podcasts. 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 2: Talking to Death is a production of Tenderfoot TV and 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts. Listener discretion is advised. 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 3: Welcome back to Talking to Death. It's been a few 8 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 3: weeks since we've put out a new episode. Apologies for 9 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 3: the delay. We've been hard at work on Up and Vanished, 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 3: and because of the time constraints involved in investigating a 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 3: case in real time, we just haven't had enough time 12 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 3: to dedicate to Talking to Death. But rest assured. We're 13 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 3: back to it with a new episode this week, and 14 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 3: we have a really fun guest. If you've been a 15 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 3: fan of Tenderfoot shows for a while, you may know 16 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 3: the name MAVs. It's an acronym for Makeup and Vanity Set. 17 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 3: MAVs is the musician who composes the Tenderfoot music across 18 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 3: all of our podcasts. He's an incredibly hard working guy 19 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 3: with an incredibly creative talent. Pain had a chance recently 20 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 3: to sit down with MAVs to talk about how they met, 21 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 3: how They've worked together for nearly ten years to create 22 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 3: some of the most beautiful music to go along with 23 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 3: some of the most tragic stories that Paine tells. This 24 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 3: is one you definitely don't want to miss, So let's 25 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 3: jump into it this week. Make Up in Vanity Set. 26 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 4: I just want to ask you, why are you the 27 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 4: way that you are? In what way? 28 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: In what way? 29 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 4: I'm just fucking with you. 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: You're like, Okay, this is gonna i'mbout to dig deep here. 31 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: I thought it'd be kind of fun because I mean, 32 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: all the podcasts we do at Tenderfood, I would say 33 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: ninety nine point nine percent of them have your music 34 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: in them. So it's a huge component to what we do, 35 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: and I feel like we rarely pull the curtain all 36 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: the way back on that particular credit process all set 37 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: the stage right back in what was it twenty seventeen, 38 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, I was making Atlanta Monster with House Stuff Works, 39 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: which I Heart eventually bought, and I was on music 40 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: bed and I was looking for songs music to score 41 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: the podcast. I found like five tracks that I thought 42 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: were really cool and they were SYNTHI and they had 43 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: this eighties vibe that wasn't stranger things. It was different, 44 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: it was cooler, and it just had like this consistent 45 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: feel I was really looking for. And it was all 46 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: by an artist named Makeup in Vanity said, and I 47 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: was like, who the hell is this person? You were 48 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: a ghost, but you did have a Twitter at the 49 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: time when it was called Twitter, and I DMed you 50 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: and then we eventually had a conversation and I convinced 51 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: House of Works to spend any money at all to 52 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: pay for a composer for a podcast, which at that 53 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: time they thought that was crazy, and it was a 54 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: little crazy because like no one was really doing that, 55 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: and so we scored you scored that and I think 56 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: we signed up for paying you for ten songs, But 57 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: how many do you think you ended up making? 58 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: Uh? I don't remember how many songs. I know that 59 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 2: in the end it was I kept like a running 60 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: playlist in iTunes, and I think in the end it 61 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: was like three and a half hours of music, so 62 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 2: it was way more than ten songs. But it was 63 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 2: also one of those things too, where like we you know, 64 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: at that point, I was kind of a I was 65 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: in my first year of being full time music, you know, 66 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 2: I'd walked away from my day job, and I was like, 67 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: I'm gonna see if I can make this work. And 68 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 2: so when you came along, it was like I really didn't. 69 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: I mean the only only true crime podcasts, only podcast 70 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: really I'd ever listened to, was probably Serial And so 71 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 2: you laid the kind of groundwork of like this is 72 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 2: I did this show up and vanished and I went 73 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 2: and looked that up and listened to it, and I 74 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 2: was like, okay, this is like this is cool. I 75 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 2: dig this. And you kind of gave me the pitch 76 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: on Atlanta Monster, and I remember in the beginning it 77 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 2: was like it's you know, it's late seventies, eighties, so 78 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 2: we're thinking like synthesizers and stranger things got tossed around 79 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: a lot, which you know, at that point, every pitch 80 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: I heard was like stranger things, you know, and it 81 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: was great. And that's not knocking stranger things, Like I 82 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: think stranger Things opened the door for people like me 83 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 2: to be considered. You know, in that conversation, do you. 84 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: Feel like they that show repopularized, like repopularized that music 85 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: or kind of made it a little bit more mainstream And. 86 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 2: I think so, I think I think the way Hollywood works. 87 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 2: I think the way entertainment works in general is you 88 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: get pigeonholed with whatever you do. 89 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 4: You know. 90 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 2: If so, if you go out and pitch yourself for 91 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 2: anything right now, people are going to go, oh, it's 92 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 2: paint Lindsay. He's the True Crime guy the podcast. 93 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, the guy that did that thing on the Crime 94 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:17,359 Speaker 4: podcast one time. 95 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 2: And so I think there was a general school of 96 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:25,119 Speaker 2: thought like what a composer, what composed music for film 97 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 2: and TV should sound like. And I think all they 98 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 2: really did was they kind of opened the door for 99 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 2: people to consider, first of all, like artists because they 100 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 2: were from a band Survive. And then I think, you know, 101 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: the notion that you could have this synthesized thing. And 102 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 2: I always and we had this conversation too an Atlanta Monster. 103 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 2: It's like, you know, the music that you think you 104 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: hear in Stranger Things is not necessarily what you're hearing 105 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 2: because you're you're getting all this visual information, you know, 106 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: so you're seeing all this like you know, rabid eighties stuff, 107 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: and you in your mind you're like, oh, yeah, it's 108 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 2: like so eighty, but really the synthesis in that show 109 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: is way more like seventies kind of it's gnarlier, Like 110 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: if you go and listen to that score, it's so 111 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: much gnarlier without the visual, Like it's very it's rough 112 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 2: around the edges. And so when we started working it 113 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 2: was like, I think it's funny because with the Atlanta Monster, 114 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: Like I think the most stranger things ish thing about 115 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: that show is probably the theme, and then everything else 116 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: gets a lot darker because it was a dark story. 117 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: You needed to be in that space with that story. 118 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: And I don't know, it's cool because we did that 119 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,799 Speaker 2: whole show via text and email. 120 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about that, because that sounds kind of unbelievable. 121 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: I feel like, but we literally we had we had 122 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: a phone call, we did a deal, we agreed to 123 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: work on this together, and I just started making cuts 124 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: of episodes, little segments, and I would just on my MacBook, 125 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: I message sends you a clip with no music, and 126 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: then I would just kind of describe what was going 127 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: on in the tone, and then you would interpret that 128 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: and do your own thing and send it back. 129 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 4: And we just did. 130 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 2: That for the most show. Yeah, the whole. 131 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: Show, like without even really verbally vocally expressing much. 132 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 2: I think that I mean, at that point. How big 133 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 2: was Tenderfoot? How many people worked for Tenderfoot? 134 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 4: Oh? 135 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: Man, it was tiny, it was I mean this was 136 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: on the heels of Up and Vanish season one. So 137 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: season one of Up and Vanished ended in July of 138 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, and then immediately It's so Sworn came out 139 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: Sworn was I guess? 140 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 4: Yep? Uh? During or right after that? 141 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: And then the next question was, Okay, what what podcasts 142 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: am I hosting again? 143 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 2: Is it? 144 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 4: Is it up in Vantage season two? Or are we 145 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 4: doing this or that? 146 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: And Dald had this idea to do to cover the 147 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: Atlanta child murders, and through like a weird series of events, Uh, 148 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: these guys who worked at Apple the podcast department at 149 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: the time, came to Atlanta Poncity Market Building where House 150 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: of Works was working out of and had a meeting 151 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: with Jason Hoak, which we know now, and somehow got 152 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: brought up that you know, the guys who make Up 153 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: and Vanished are upstairs, And eventually Jason emailed me and 154 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: I met with him downstairs, and then I started talking about, 155 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: you know, what we were doing next, and I loosely 156 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: pitched Atlanta Monster podcasts and kind of coincidentally, serendipitously, he 157 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: had a similar idea, like idea of making a podcast 158 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: on the same story, and from there we decided to 159 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: collaborate and make it, you know, make this the priority show. 160 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: So this was the second show I ever hosted, but 161 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: it was also being produced while I was on tour 162 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: for Updash, which was its own bizarre experience, and so 163 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: I was calling the serial killer in prison Wayne Williams 164 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: like literally before and off stage and in the weirdest 165 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: places imaginable, like I'm like, what existence is this? And 166 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: eventually I got I got sick of hearing that guy, 167 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: and I blocked around all numbers. But after Atlanta Monster, 168 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: we decided to keep working together. We were both at 169 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: a point I think in my career I realized the 170 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: value that original music brings to the storytelling that we're doing. 171 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: And I've always been somebody who is inspired by that 172 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: and uses that to kind of set my tone in 173 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: my mind in my writing and imagining a scene or 174 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 1: the vision as a whole. And so the next thing 175 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: we worked on was up in Vantaged season two, and 176 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: at this point we still had never met in person, 177 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: and so this months after Atlanta Monster, which was very 178 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: successful number one, I think for like a month, you know, 179 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: with a huge press run on it, and it was 180 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: a big hit success. And we started working on up 181 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: in Vantage season two. And this is where I want 182 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: you to pick up because we had not met yet. 183 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: No, well, I guess worth saying at that point, like 184 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 2: podcasting was still pretty small, like the amount of the 185 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: amount of shows that were in existence were it was 186 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 2: pretty small, like because I remember that show came out 187 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 2: and it was sort of like, oh, okay, cool, you know, 188 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 2: and I remember at the time thinking like, oh that's neat, 189 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 2: you know, like it did it did well? Like I 190 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: had no I was making it up as I went along, 191 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 2: like I didn't know how anything worked, and you kind 192 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 2: of came in and were like, well, I'm doing the 193 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 2: show and and I think the whole that whole process. 194 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: If I learned anything through that process, right, I learned 195 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 2: that you and I work together really well, Like we 196 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 2: have a very similar kind of workflow where it's like, 197 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:21,719 Speaker 2: don't overthink it, trust your gut, and we I think 198 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 2: almost immediately had a pretty good shorthand. 199 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 4: And I agree with that. 200 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: But for someone who doesn't really know exactly what you mean, 201 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: you know, trusting your gut, don't over think it. 202 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 4: What what actions are? What do what do you like? 203 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 4: What actions are you taking? So I think the thing, 204 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:38,959 Speaker 4: the thing that. 205 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: Happens a ton in it from my perspective, is I'll 206 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: work on something and whatever the thing is, whether it's film, TV, 207 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: if it's a game, it could be anything. A lot 208 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 2: of times people come to the table and they say, hey, 209 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: this is my thing that I made, and I maybe 210 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 2: don't believe in it fully, like I'm shaky on it, 211 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 2: you know, and I need you to make music to 212 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 2: make it better, which is a really bad way to 213 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 2: start a partnership, I think, because you want to be 214 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 2: with somebody who has a vision, you know, who has 215 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: that vision and tru and believes in that vision. And 216 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: you know, up until that point, I had like put 217 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 2: out records, and I had worked on a handful of things. 218 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 2: And my first year in full time, I was like 219 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: chasing freelance work. I was like, Okay, I'm gonna go 220 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 2: do this. I was making I was making all these 221 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 2: like uh well, I was doing all these wine commercials 222 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 2: for a Chilean ad agency. I don't know how the 223 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: guy just found me on like Facebook and was like, 224 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: so I was, I was doing all this like like 225 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 2: music for it, yeah, just music music for these uh yeah. 226 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 2: They were based in Chile, and it was like he 227 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 2: was like, hey, I got this wine ad and he'd 228 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 2: send it to me and I would have to like 229 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 2: make a tycho rip off or something, you know, like 230 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 2: do some do some kind of like sound alike. And 231 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 2: you know, I was doing that just purely because I 232 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 2: was like, this is what you do, I guess. And 233 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 2: you know what I realized was you wanna you want 234 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 2: to be working with people that a the thing they're 235 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: doing is like their number one thing, right, It's like 236 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 2: that's they're they're fully invested in it. And then be 237 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 2: you want to work with people that have You want 238 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 2: to be on the same wavelength with them creatively, right. So, 239 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 2: and I think that's what was great about Atlanta Monsters, 240 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 2: Like I think right out of the gate, we kind 241 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: of understood what I understood, what you wanted, and then 242 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 2: we just I don't know. I always say that those 243 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 2: kind of gigs are the gigs that feel very effortless, 244 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 2: and I feel like Atlanta Monster, at least from my end, 245 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: felt very easy. It was easy work to do because 246 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 2: I like doing it, and because I think we we 247 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 2: got along. It wasn't like i'd send you a queue 248 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 2: and be like, well, I think you know you want 249 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 2: to do this, you want to do that. You like 250 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: a lot of times I just send you stuff and 251 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: you would just text me back and go dope, and 252 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: that would be that. And then we got right right 253 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: and like you know, those gigs are the best gigs 254 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 2: because you're like, okay, we are in lockstep, like we 255 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 2: get it. I get it, I get what you need, 256 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: and so we're just riffing on it, and you know, 257 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 2: I remember, I remember exactly. It was like it was 258 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 2: like around Thanksgiving. You texted me and you were like 259 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: it might have been on Thanksgiving, like I think you 260 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: texted me and you were like, hey, I'm doing this. 261 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 2: I'm doing season two of Up in Vanish. You should 262 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: come and work on that. And I remember like it 263 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: was like a no brainer. I was like, yeah, sure, 264 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 2: like let's go, you know, and you you were like great. 265 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 2: And then I think sometimes shortly thereafter, you were like, Okay, 266 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: well here's the information about it. It's this case in Crestone. 267 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 2: Come to crestone because you just have to experience it. 268 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: And I was like okay. And up until that point, 269 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 2: and I'm very much like behind the scenes, like yeah, 270 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 2: you're in the lab. Yeah, this whole process of you 271 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: interviewing me is like deeply stressful to me because I 272 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: don't want to be. 273 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 4: So so like you're doing me a favor, right, So, like. 274 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: I I was like okay, And it was one of 275 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: those things where I was like, all right, I'm have 276 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 2: to go meet this guy, and I'm gonna have to 277 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 2: go meet these people, and but I knew. I knew 278 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: that like going to Crestone sounded like fantastic. It sounded 279 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: and fantastic, and not in the sense like, oh that's awesome, 280 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 2: like in the sense of like it sounded like some 281 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: kind of weird fantasy. It sounded like a weird like Okay, 282 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 2: that sounds amazing and dangerous and scary and all of 283 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: the things. And I just sort of was like, well, 284 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: you know, it's one of those things that you buy 285 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 2: the ticket, by the ticket, you have to take the ride. 286 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, I'm gonna go. I'm just gonna 287 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: do it. And I remember you bought me a ticket 288 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 2: to Denver and I flew out and then you were 289 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: like hey, I flew in and you're like, hey, I'm 290 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: not gonna make it, so you're gonna crash in this hotel. 291 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 2: I got your hotel room, and I remember I went 292 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: into the hotel room and I just hung out in 293 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: this weird hotel like overnight. And the next morning you're like, hey, 294 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 2: I'm still not gonna make it, but my brother Mason 295 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 2: and this guy Rob are gonna pick you up. To 296 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 2: people I've never met in my life are gonna pick 297 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: You're gonna pick you up, and they're gonna drive you 298 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: to Crestone. And I was like okay. And I remember 299 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: I got all my stuff together and I sat in 300 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 2: the is this okay? 301 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 4: Right? 302 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 2: So I just sat in the lobby and these two 303 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 2: guys walk up. I'll never forget it, Like Mason walks 304 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 2: up and he's like He's like Matt. It was just 305 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 2: sort of like hey, and we went to this diner 306 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 2: and had breakfast, and then we got in the car 307 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: and we just drove for like three hours in the 308 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: car with these two random dudes. I just met uh 309 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: to Crestone, Colorado in the middle of nowhere, at the 310 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 2: foothills of the Crestone Mountains and that was an experience 311 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 2: I will never forget. I mean just being there and 312 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: seeing that place and like walking around. I had like 313 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 2: a I took like a field recording kit that I 314 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: had like sort of put together, and I had like 315 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: a portable recorder. I had like a little I had 316 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 2: like a microphone on a boom with like a zeppelin, 317 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: and I was like walking around and and I just 318 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: recorded so much stuff there. I got so much material 319 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 2: just in that first few days, Like we went everywhere 320 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 2: we went all they had a whole road of like 321 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 2: these religious like you. 322 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 4: Know, like Buddhist temples and stuff, Buddhist temples. 323 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: There was a shoe Ma center. There were like all 324 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:22,719 Speaker 2: these different places, and we went to all of them 325 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 2: and they were mostly empty, and we just walked in 326 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 2: and I would record all the drums and bells and 327 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 2: all these sounds, and then all of that when in 328 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 2: the soundtrack, like all of that, the score of that 329 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 2: show is just dripping with Crestone, like the actual place. 330 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 2: And still to this day when I hear if I 331 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 2: hear that show or hear that music, all I can 332 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 2: think about is just wandering around Crestone and seeing and 333 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 2: I mean that you know that may or may not 334 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 2: come through to the person listening to it, but I 335 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 2: mean that places is like wrapped in that soundtrack really truly, 336 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 2: and I remember just how creepy it was, you know, 337 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 2: like we stayed in this airbnb, like right in the 338 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: middle of town, and it was the kind of town 339 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: where you rolled up and you walked around, you could 340 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 2: like feel the eyes on you. Because yes, it was 341 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: such a small community, like people are like, who are you, 342 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 2: Like you don't belong here? And then and also like 343 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 2: the majority of the people that were there, I mean, 344 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 2: there were people there that were super friendly, and those 345 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: people are oh yeah, podcast, but but there were a 346 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 2: lot of people there who just wanted to be off 347 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 2: the grid. And I remember, like you'd strike up a 348 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 2: conversation with somebody if you ask them anything about like, 349 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 2: oh where are you from, like they're like they don't 350 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: want to talk to you, you know. 351 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, they moved out there to kind of get away 352 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 1: from that. Yeah, a lot of people did. 353 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 2: They're escaping. And so I was out there for a 354 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 2: few days and recorded all that, and then I think 355 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: you showed up shortly thereafter, and that was the first 356 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: time we met in person. And yeah, that was kind 357 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 2: of the beginning of it, like in terms of just 358 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:56,719 Speaker 2: doing a whole bunch of shows. 359 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: I mean, if you've never been to Colorado, it's definitely 360 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: a one of a kind place. 361 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 4: And speaking of being terrified there, I like, I. 362 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: Think I've to date had one of my one of 363 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: the most terrifying nights of my life there. At some 364 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: point I had flown out there. 365 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 4: I think this was. 366 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: This was after Actually this is the first time I 367 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: had ever been there, and I went there by myself 368 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: because my uncle lives there. I never I never said 369 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: that in the podcast. It's kind of like a handshake deal, 370 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: like he didn't really want to get wrapped up in it, 371 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: but he was also kind of my ace in the hole, 372 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: and he actually is in the podcast. I just don't 373 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: ever tell you he's my uncle. He's hilarious. He's been 374 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: there for twenty years. He knows everybody. He's like the 375 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: truest hippie, you know, my favorite, one of my favorite uncles. 376 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 4: He's amazing. 377 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: But I went there probably right after Christmas, just to 378 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: kind of get just an assessment of this place, this town, 379 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: this missing person case. And the first night I was there, 380 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: within the first hour, I was at his house and 381 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: we were smoking weed, we were drinking IPA's, and then 382 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: we went to the brewery and you know, my uncle 383 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: has probably an insane THHC tolerance that I don't have. 384 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 4: But I took I took a. 385 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: Gummy and you know, next thing, you know, I'm in 386 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: this bar and I'm like, oh my god, this is 387 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: the highest I've ever been. I think I'm gonna die. 388 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: And he's like, all right, man, well I'm a head out. 389 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: You know where you're going. And I was like, yeah, yeah, 390 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 1: I had an Airbnb. Yeah, And I was like, uh, okay, 391 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: do you mind like me, like like following me there? 392 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: I make sure I'm going the right way. And I 393 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: was driving down this dark gravel road and I was 394 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 1: so paranoid that I thought that any moment I was 395 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: gonna drive off a cliff, even though when I woke 396 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: up in the daytime, it was just a flat road 397 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: with not even a fucking bump in it. 398 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 2: Were you staying in the dome? Were you in that. 399 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: Yes, I was staying in that domehouse and then own. 400 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: Even though my uncle. I asked my uncle to follow me. 401 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: The next thing, you know, I see these tail lights 402 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: behind me, in these this guy's flashing his lights and 403 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, it's the fucking cops. And 404 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: I pulled over and my uncle's like, man, that gummy's 405 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: hitting crazy and I was like. 406 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 4: Oh my god. 407 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: And so then I get back to this Airbnb and 408 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever stayed in a dome house, 409 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: but the acoustics in there are just weird. 410 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 4: Man. 411 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like beyond this. Yeah, it was a 412 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 2: geodesic dome. 413 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 4: Right. 414 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: It was like, yeah, like you could hear like a 415 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: whisper from like way across the room in your ear, 416 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: like you know, in a certain spot. And so I 417 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: slept with all the lights on. I was absolutely terrified. 418 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm never doing this shit again. Crestone 419 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,239 Speaker 1: was a welcome to crestone, baby. Crestone was like a 420 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: haunted place. I mean it. 421 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: And it's funny because like all those years later, I 422 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: mean a lot of people reach out to me after that. 423 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 2: Doc was on HBO about that lady because we talked 424 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 2: to her at some point the Yeah, and you know, 425 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 2: I think I remember that first night, like we were 426 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 2: in the Airbnb and we had kind of come back 427 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 2: for the evening and it was dark out and went 428 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: dark in Crestone is not dark like anywhere else. I mean, 429 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 2: it's like it's pitch black, like you can't see anything. 430 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: Remember lights, Yeah, And I walked out there. There was 431 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 2: a light on the back of the like the stairwell 432 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 2: for the Airbnb. And I remember I walked out and 433 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 2: I had my microphone and I put my headphones on 434 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: and I'm standing down there and it's like, I don't know, 435 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 2: probably ten thirty or eleven o'clock at night, and I 436 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 2: would point the microphone around. It was like a shotgun 437 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 2: mic you know, you pointed around, and I would hear 438 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 2: like voices like just out in the darkness, just people 439 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 2: just talk like and it wasn't anything. It wasn't like 440 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 2: I could hear what they were saying, but it was 441 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: like you could definitely make out that people were there 442 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 2: and you could not see them and you had no 443 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: idea what was going and it was it was it 444 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 2: was really unnerving, No, it was. I mean it was 445 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 2: so I remember. I think in the recording you can 446 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 2: hear me say like, holy shit, like it was very 447 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 2: like okay, you know. And but I think all of 448 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 2: my experiences in Crestone were kind of like that. I mean, 449 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: they were very like just you know, but then I 450 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: mean the gravity. I mean, coming into it, I had 451 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 2: no experience with true crime other than I had written 452 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 2: music for Atlanta Monster, right, So standing and looking at 453 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 2: Crystal's apartment and realizing that we're walking around in a 454 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 2: small town where people do go missing, and where this 455 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 2: person went missing, and where the likelihood that the person 456 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: who made that person disappear is there is barely high, 457 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 2: you know, and you know, that was really it was 458 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 2: a lot. That was my first experience at Tenderfoot with 459 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 2: grappling with that gravity. You know, the gravity of that 460 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,479 Speaker 2: is really extreme and it and and in a lot 461 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,719 Speaker 2: of ways, I mean for what I do. You know, 462 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 2: you're you guys experience this too, but it's different because 463 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 2: you're sort of record You're you're getting tape, you're recording interviews, 464 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 2: and then you're piecing all that together to tell the story. 465 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 2: And where I come in, I'm emotionally like reacting to 466 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 2: all of that. So my job is to sort of 467 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 2: and I and I think where where I maybe differ 468 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: from from other composers maybe is that I I really 469 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: I tend to just listen to stuff and just straight 470 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 2: up like I don't I don't know. I don't ever 471 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 2: go into thinking like, Okay, well we're going to need 472 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 2: like a stinger here, or we're going to need like 473 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 2: this thing here to punctuate that. I look at it 474 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 2: and I'm like, I'm going to just respond to this 475 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 2: candidly as emotionally as I possibly can. Like I remember 476 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: in Atlanta Monster, you know, the whole the whole bit 477 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 2: about Loubi being found, his body being found, and how 478 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 2: how devastating that tape was, and that queue is is 479 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 2: a devastating cue because I'm literally just responding to it, 480 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 2: you know, and I'm you know, and I feel like 481 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 2: all the shows share in that, you know, there's an 482 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 2: emotional currency there that's just really it's a lot. And 483 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 2: so Creston was my first real experience being on the ground, 484 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 2: like looking at a thing sort of face to face 485 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: and being like, you know, a person literally disappeared here, 486 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: and and how heavy that was, and and knowing you're 487 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere. You're there, you don't have 488 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 2: a safety net, you know, you're just you're there. 489 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: And since then, you've come along on most of the 490 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: trips we've done out in the field, right, how do 491 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: you feel like, you know, from your first experience being 492 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: being in Crestone, Colorado as a composer, how did that 493 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: inform your process and the music that you actually made, 494 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: and what value did you see in it too? 495 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 4: You know, want to come to Montana. 496 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: I always tell people that I came away from Crestone 497 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 2: absolutely like galvanized by that experience. I was like, this 498 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 2: is so incredible, you know, and I and I felt 499 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 2: like the work that came out of that was so 500 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 2: just felt really heavy and felt really true, you know, 501 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 2: and as a creative, like, that's all you could ever 502 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 2: really want. You just want to be true. You just 503 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: want to tell the true thing. And I remember the 504 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 2: show we did after that was Zodiac with iHeart and 505 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 2: you're like, hey, so we're doing Zodiac, And I think 506 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: the experience on Up and Vanish was the experience where 507 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: I was like, all right, I'm ready to pull the 508 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 2: trigger because you had sort of said come work for 509 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 2: Tenderfoot and I was sort of like, no, I don't 510 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 2: want to do that because I don't want a job. 511 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 2: I like left my job trying to make it. 512 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, You're like, I'm not doing the whole job thing 513 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 4: right now right. 514 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 2: And then but after we're up and vanished after season two, 515 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 2: because we spent about a month in Denver working. You know, 516 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 2: I was out there for a couple of stints and 517 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 2: it was like about fifteen days each and I'd started 518 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 2: meeting more people on the team and I was like, 519 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 2: I'm not going to find this working relationship anywhere else, 520 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: and so I was like, Okay, let's do it. And 521 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 2: so I think Zodiac was the first show we did 522 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 2: where I was officially on board and I went out 523 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 2: to San Francisco and I remember thinking, we're going to 524 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 2: go to San Francisco. It's going to be the Zodiac 525 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 2: and I, you know, I was a huge fan of 526 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 2: the film, Fincher's film, and I got out there and 527 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 2: I got nothing because San Francisco in the seventies is 528 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 2: totally different than San Francisco is today. 529 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 4: And yeah, I remember Detale now that that was one 530 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 4: of one. 531 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 2: Well I remember just I remember just feeling kind of 532 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 2: like let down about that. Like I remember going out 533 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: there and just feeling like, oh no, like I'm not 534 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 2: and kind of in a panic, if I'm honest, like 535 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 2: I kind of got out there like oh no, shit, 536 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: like I'm not getting all the stuff. You know, there's 537 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 2: no there's no grit here, there's no dirt, there's no 538 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: like what am I supposed to do? And what's funny 539 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 2: is I still ended up writing probably eighty percent of 540 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 2: the music that's in that show. I still wrote it 541 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 2: in San Francisco. We just had to like adapt and 542 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: be and think about it differently. And and I think 543 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: also just you know, being out there and having that experience. 544 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: You know, I think you and I are alike in 545 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 2: that there's an adaptability that has to happen where you 546 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 2: have to be flexible. You have to go into a 547 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: situation and say and I think this is true of 548 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 2: anybody who can is hopefully creatively successful as you go 549 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 2: out and you saw of say, okay, this may this 550 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 2: isn't Maybe it may not be going my way, you know, 551 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 2: it may not be gleaning all the stuff that I 552 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 2: thought I was going to glean, But it doesn't mean 553 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 2: that the work is going to go away, Like I 554 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: still have to do this and I still have to 555 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 2: figure it out. And you know, for me, the inn 556 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 2: with Zodiac was just the time period and looking at 557 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 2: it from an instrumental standpoint you know, I looked at 558 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: it and saw drum kit roads, you know, keyboard, bass, guitar. 559 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 2: I looked at it from an instrumentation, which is you know, 560 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: later on, later on down the road, skipping ahead a 561 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: little bit, you know, when we did Dead and Gone, 562 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 2: I remember you came to me and said, we're doing 563 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 2: a podcast about the Grateful Dead, and I thought, great, 564 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 2: I hate the Grateful Dead, like. 565 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 4: And I was like, well, I can't even other songs. 566 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 2: I don't. It was hates a strong word, but I 567 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: think at the time I was like, I have no 568 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 2: no inroads to that world. And you know, and again 569 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: it was the same kind of deal. It was like, okay, well, 570 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 2: let's limit ourselves to only instruments grateful Dad would have, right, 571 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 2: and and. 572 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,959 Speaker 1: Let's make like suspenseful music and ariste that feels like 573 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: you want it to and like like and that's a 574 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: new challenge, right. 575 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 4: Well. 576 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: I remember, like the intro is still like that don't 577 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: don't right, And there's like gravel footsteps. 578 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 4: That one of us had recorded. I think it might 579 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 4: have been from the tape of something, but you made 580 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 4: it into like a ticking metronome. 581 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 2: We wound up in a cabin it was in Mount Desert. 582 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 4: Oh, so that's where you got that. Okay, yeah, all 583 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 4: the there was gravel. 584 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 2: I remember we rolled up to this cabins in the 585 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 2: middle of nowhere and it was right on the water 586 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 2: and beautiful. There was like a wreck of wood outside 587 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 2: and an axe and it was like because it was 588 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 2: like freezing cold at night, and so they had a 589 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 2: fire free standing fireplace in the middle of this place, 590 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 2: and we used to we would have that thing going 591 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 2: like all all the time. And I remember I took 592 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 2: this little table that they had and I set up 593 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 2: my stuff and I had a bass guitar and I 594 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: had like a synth, and I had some other stuff, 595 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 2: and but we went outside. We recorded the gravel outside 596 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 2: in that walkway. It was like you walking in the gravel. 597 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 2: And then also there's pages turning and that was like 598 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 2: one of the books on the bokshelf you recorded, I 599 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 2: recorded you turning pages and all of it. And the 600 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: whole idea was like, you know, thinking about the tape, 601 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 2: it was like that, you know, you always want to 602 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 2: follow the narrative, so you know they're talking about like, oh, 603 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 2: you know, the gravel lots or the fields where the 604 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 2: deadheads would all hang out and then you know, waiting 605 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: for the show or traveling to the show. And and 606 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 2: then also this notion that like there's an investigative journey 607 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 2: here where you're sort of out there following the story 608 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 2: and following the narrative and talking to these people and 609 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 2: trying to get you know. And it's weird because at 610 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,479 Speaker 2: the time we did all that, and then we had 611 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: all that stuff, and I don't think you had gone 612 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 2: out to meet that guy, you know. I think that 613 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 2: stuff came later where you went out to approach him 614 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 2: and it was like terrifying and you had you had 615 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: to like, you know, bolt out of there. 616 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: Yes, that came afterwards. That right, that came months later. 617 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: But we but we made almost all the other episodes 618 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: and the music kind of before then, and then the 619 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: last few we were doing a real time well. 620 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,479 Speaker 2: I think it was, yeah, and I think it was 621 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 2: you know, I remember being out there and I remember 622 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 2: distinctly thinking about how terrifying, like you're talking telling that 623 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 2: story about Crestone and the gummy right, like, how but 624 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 2: how terrifying it would have been. You're out there, you're 625 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 2: following the grateful dead, the Grateful Dead. Is this jam band. 626 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 2: It's like a happy existence. You know, they're just chasing 627 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 2: Nirvana basically, like they're just looking for looking to to 628 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 2: feel good, you know, and how the the sort of 629 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,479 Speaker 2: underbelly of that is is a lot gnarlier. You know, 630 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 2: the drugs, the highs, the high highs and the low lows, 631 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 2: you know. And you know, we went out there and 632 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 2: we talked to people, and people would be very candid 633 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 2: about drugs. And I remember sitting those interviews with you 634 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 2: and being like I would be in the back taking 635 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 2: notes and writing down the names of all these drugs, 636 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 2: and then I would go on YouTube and just you know, 637 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 2: I shout out to Hamilton's Pharmacopeia from Vice. I watched 638 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 2: that whole series and it was essentially like, you know, 639 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 2: learning about all these crazy psychedelic drugs that people were 640 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 2: doing that I had never heard of, and that kind 641 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 2: of terrifying nature of that stuff. And so, you know, 642 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 2: I came at it from a standpoint of like, all right, 643 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 2: I'm gonna really lean into that. I'm going to lean 644 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 2: into the scariness of you know. And it's funny because 645 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 2: like in that soundtrack, there's a lot of it's probably 646 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 2: way more experimental I think in places total than any 647 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 2: other show we'd done. It was just really spaced out, 648 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 2: and but spaced out in a scary way. 649 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: Like do you like giving yourself guidelines or parameters, like 650 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: example being I'm gonna try to strictly use instruments that 651 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: were around that the Grateful Dead would have used and 652 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: had that kind of be a starting point for me. 653 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: And then almost in a way, that's a creative challenge 654 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: to make something work. 655 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 4: Do you do you look at it like that too. 656 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 2: Totally, I think. I mean, before I went to school 657 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 2: to study music, I really wanted to go to film school. 658 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 2: And you know when I was in I graduated high 659 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 2: school in two thousand and at the time, you know, 660 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 2: I was really into indie films, Like independent filmmaking was 661 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,839 Speaker 2: a big deal at that point, and you had kind 662 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 2: of the higher eschelon, like you know, the Tarantinos of 663 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 2: the world. You know, he had he had just put 664 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 2: out pulp fiction, and but then there were all these 665 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 2: other people that were operating in Europe that were incredible, 666 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 2: like uh, you know, the Lars Venturers and you know, 667 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 2: all the guys that got folded into the And I 668 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 2: was really obsessed with the whole Dogma ninety five thing 669 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 2: where it was like, we're going to make these movies 670 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: and you have to adhere to the strict set of rules, right, 671 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 2: and those rules you can only you know, all the 672 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 2: cameras have to be handheld, all the titles have to 673 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 2: be done in camera. You know. There were all these 674 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 2: like strict rules that they made, and they made a 675 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 2: ton of movies using this this sort of guideline, and 676 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 2: they're all fascinating, you know, they're all really interesting. And 677 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 2: I always found, like I always found the place where 678 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 2: I was at my worst in college was I would 679 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 2: go into these studio sessions. We'd book time, and I'd 680 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: go in and I'd sit in this million dollar studio, 681 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 2: you know, the really fancy studio, tons of stuff. 682 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: The one where you're like, I don't know what half 683 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: this shit does or if I even need this shit. 684 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 2: Well, it's like it's like all the school yeah, all 685 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 2: the outboard gear, a giant fancy console, and you sit 686 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 2: in there and you feel like, man, I feel like 687 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 2: my hands are tied behind my back. I don't it's 688 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 2: almost stif what's stifling creatively when you have everything at 689 00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:58,879 Speaker 2: your disposal, you know. 690 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: Like you wanted to be more binary and more just fundamental. 691 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: And I'm I mean, I my whole existence. You know, 692 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: I wear I wear black every day. I eat the 693 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: same thing at the restaurant that I know. I like, 694 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: you know there's a there is there's a true habit. Yeah, 695 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: well there's a there's a decision fatigue. And that's by 696 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: design in a way. It's like you kind of are like, 697 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: this is the this is the way that I this 698 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: is the way I keep myself in a lane so 699 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: that when I'm working creatively, I know exactly what I 700 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: want to do. And my my whole studio, my space 701 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: in here is like that where you know, everything is 702 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: kind of designed in a way where it's all hooked in, 703 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: it's all ready to go. I don't want to patch 704 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: or unpatched things. I just want to work, you know. 705 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 2: And when we work together, like if you're in the 706 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 2: studio with me, I find that's that's how we've always worked. 707 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 2: You know, we kind of just chase an idea, Like 708 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 2: if there's a threat, it's like, okay, pull that and 709 00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 2: do that and see where it goes. And you know, 710 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 2: I don't think that that I don't think that process 711 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 2: has ever led us astray, no matter how weird it is. 712 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 2: You know. I remember coming up with uh, you know 713 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 2: the sound of bow in the Dead and gone? You 714 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 2: know that that crazy noise. You know. It's like once 715 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 2: we had that, we were like, Okay, this is it. 716 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 2: This is the like crazy sound. 717 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: And it was like a It was like a reversed 718 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: uh whoosh or something that or what was it again? 719 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 4: It was like this whoo. 720 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 2: I think it was like it was a combination of 721 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 2: a couple sounds. And then I had run it through 722 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 2: a plug in. This company called Slate Nash makes something 723 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 2: called Cycles and it's a It has a big granular 724 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 2: engine in it, which means it takes the sound and 725 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 2: splinters it into it a thousand tiny pieces and it 726 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 2: what's nice about a granular synthesis is that it you 727 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 2: can take a sound and stretch it way out and 728 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 2: get these really crazy bizarre but you get all these 729 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 2: nice little artifacts and things like that. And I remember 730 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 2: I was just screwing around with it. I think I 731 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 2: had just gotten it. I was like mess around with it, 732 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 2: and like as soon as that sound happened, I think 733 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 2: we were it was like you me and maybe Rooney 734 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:12,879 Speaker 2: was there and we were all like, Okay, that's the sound. 735 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 4: You know. 736 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 2: It was like this is it? Yeah? And because it 737 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 2: was so, it was terrifying, you know, it was like 738 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 2: a really startling But again that's the whole thing. It 739 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 2: wasn't like we sat down and went, well, you know 740 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:24,839 Speaker 2: what would be good for that guys if we had 741 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 2: it. It was like no, we just we stumbled into it. 742 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 2: And I feel like my process musically is as like that. 743 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 2: I don't ever want to be the guy that sits 744 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 2: down and goes okay. So it needs to start at 745 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 2: this tempo, and it needs to be in this key 746 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 2: because this key equals this emotion. I just sort of 747 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 2: I'll find a sound and I'll follow it, and then 748 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 2: the work will sort of tell me what it needs 749 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 2: to be, and I'll just trust that process because to me, 750 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 2: that's the most genuine way to do it and it 751 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 2: always yields the most interesting results. 752 00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 1: So and then I go on the podcast. There was 753 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: a Boogeyman. His name was bo and he kept coming 754 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: up slowly but surely throughout the podcast, and you learn 755 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: more and more about this individual, and he's a mystery. 756 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 4: Is he real? Where is he? Is he? Alive, did 757 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 4: he have any part in these murders? 758 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: And so I wanted to have some sort of signifying 759 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: sound that you would kind of eventually subconsciously associate with 760 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: this person without having to say anything. And that's kind 761 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: of and you made the perfect sound. And then once 762 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: we at the end of the show, when I actually 763 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: find this guy, we take that little sound you've been 764 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 1: hearing and it becomes this really full blown almost like 765 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: if you subconsciously forgot about it. It feels familiar, and 766 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: it feels like it's coming and it's running at you 767 00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: right now, right behind you. 768 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean podcasting it's weird because likedcast, scoring a 769 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 2: podcast is not like scoring anything else, in my opinion, 770 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,800 Speaker 2: I think because largely, first and foremost you're really scoring 771 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,320 Speaker 2: for like an audience of one. People don't get together 772 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 2: and listen to podcasts in groups. I mean, if they do, maybe, 773 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 2: I guess great, But most people are driving in the car. Yeah, 774 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,399 Speaker 2: most people are driving in the car, or a lot 775 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 2: of people are listening to it in headphones. And what's 776 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 2: unique about headphones is, like, think about it, like, even 777 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 2: if you're sitting and watching a movie at home, the 778 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 2: chances that you would be watching that movie and headphones 779 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 2: are pretty slim, Like you're probably watching it on a 780 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,919 Speaker 2: TV in your living room, and headphones do this thing. 781 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 2: It's like there's a level of intimacy, there's a proximity 782 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 2: there that you don't get anywhere else. And so, you know, 783 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 2: I learned early on making music for podcasts, like there's 784 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 2: certain things that, yeah, you don't really want to do, 785 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 2: Like you don't want to have weird stereo effects, and 786 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:55,839 Speaker 2: you don't want to do stuff that's going to take 787 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 2: away from the narrative and the tape, because that's the 788 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,240 Speaker 2: most important thing. But also I think what's different between 789 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 2: what we do at Tenderfoot and what maybe someone else 790 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 2: would do is instead of it just being wallpaper, you know, 791 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 2: we wanted to always be useful and used in like 792 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 2: a cinematic way. And I think that was something I 793 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 2: appreciated about the process that you had early on, because 794 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,359 Speaker 2: it was like you came from film, so you look 795 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 2: at everything and go, let's how can we make this 796 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 2: as cinematic as possible and as interesting as possible? And 797 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 2: you know, I just I feel like my job as 798 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,399 Speaker 2: the composer is always just keeping up with that, trying 799 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 2: to trying to stay in that zone and support that. 800 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,320 Speaker 1: I mean, for me, the music in a podcast should 801 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,280 Speaker 1: never be the thing that makes it good. 802 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 4: It should be the thing that makes it better. 803 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: And even down to my process, when I'm making an 804 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 1: episode without the music yet, I build it in these 805 00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: sort of segment blocks. 806 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 4: Right, and I'll send them like I'll send them to. 807 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: You throughout and we'll kind of end up stitching them together, 808 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 1: and sometimes we might rearrange them entirely, but they're usually 809 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 1: their complete thought bubbles or their story building blocks. And 810 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,760 Speaker 1: when I put an episode together and there's no music 811 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 1: in it, and it's in the right order and there's 812 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,760 Speaker 1: no vo, my goal is to be able to play 813 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: that and for you to pretty much have a good 814 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,840 Speaker 1: idea of. 815 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 4: What happened or what's going on totally. 816 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,720 Speaker 1: So therefore, now when I come in and say anything, 817 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,799 Speaker 1: it's technically adding to it. It's building upon it, it's 818 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:49,359 Speaker 1: connecting the tissue, it's adding another layer or you know, 819 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,240 Speaker 1: level of personability or insight description. And then the music 820 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: starts to bring to life the way some of this 821 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: stuff really feels. 822 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 4: And then it becomes a. 823 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: More organic experience, and like you know, people get writer's block, 824 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: you know. I'm sure there's days where you're like, fuck, 825 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,359 Speaker 1: I don't know what to make today. And I feel 826 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: like we've, you know, we've done some weird things sometimes 827 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: to jumpstart our brains when it comes to what should 828 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 1: this sound like it? 829 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 4: And I think it all started in San Francisco. 830 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,920 Speaker 1: When we had lost our minds out there being in 831 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: this weird airbnb and I went downstairs in the basement 832 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 1: and I just recorded some weird noises on my voice 833 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: notes on my phone and I just texted them to you. Yeah, 834 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 1: and then you just started messing with it, and then 835 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: it became this haunting and it became sort of like 836 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: one of them. It became one of the main themes 837 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 1: in Zodiac. And we've to this day we've still done that. 838 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: We we've done it with radio rental, with buying an 839 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: actual reel to reel and playing with those tapes, or 840 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: I'll sends you like I just found this one, like 841 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: like I'll I'll send you stuff like this, right, And 842 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,879 Speaker 1: so yeah, I recorded that on my phone, Like that's 843 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 1: the original audio, not in a like, not in a 844 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,800 Speaker 1: nice microphone, right, So it's got its own weird feel. 845 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 1: And then that became something really weird, and I remember 846 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: just sitting there because you just put it through. I 847 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: don't know what that plugin was, but you just dropped 848 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: it into something pretty quickly and it just went bit 849 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 1: bit bu upupup, bit bit bit. I was like, and 850 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 1: I feel like it was not even like you weren't 851 00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: even fully done. 852 00:44:58,000 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 4: With the next step you're going to do. 853 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: But I was like, let's just save that real quick, 854 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,440 Speaker 1: right then I a happy accident, right. 855 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, and then what do we do with that or something? 856 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 4: Right yeah? 857 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 2: I mean my my musical background, you know, when I 858 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,239 Speaker 2: went to school, I went to school for production, for 859 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 2: basically recording, and growing up like I was always really 860 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,239 Speaker 2: into I just I mean, up until the point I 861 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,759 Speaker 2: discovered electronic music, I was very much like just into 862 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,720 Speaker 2: punk rock and skateboarding with my friends and like screwing 863 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 2: around and you know, not you're just being a kid. 864 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:42,360 Speaker 2: And I remember I remember distinctly definitely not being a badass. 865 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 2: But when I uh, when I stumbled into electronic music, 866 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:54,239 Speaker 2: I remember finding I remember really keying into types of 867 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,319 Speaker 2: music that where I would hear a sound and I'd 868 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 2: be like, that's an organic sound, Like that's a natural sound, 869 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 2: but it's doing unnatural things and being really fascinated by 870 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,319 Speaker 2: that and like, Okay, well how did they do that? 871 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 2: I know what that is, but it's like doing all 872 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 2: these crazy things, and I had no idea how that worked. 873 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 2: So it wasn't necessarily like oh, well, here's a drum 874 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 2: machine or here's a synthesizer. It was like, no, I 875 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 2: was really into the sort of strange application of sound 876 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 2: and editing and sound design, and so when I went 877 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 2: to college, I was like on a mission to do that. 878 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 2: And I was at a school where there were a 879 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,560 Speaker 2: bunch of other kids who were kind of there to 880 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 2: you know, be engineers and studios or work on a 881 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 2: tour or make pop records or whatever, and so I 882 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 2: was I was kind of always I was a little 883 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 2: bit of the odd man out in that way where 884 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 2: I was like I looked at college and said, I'm 885 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 2: here for four years to make music every day and 886 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,520 Speaker 2: just and I did that, and I think it, you know, 887 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 2: in it it built in me a work ethic but 888 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:01,120 Speaker 2: also like a bit of a workflow. And I've always 889 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 2: but I've always really really held on to that, you know, 890 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 2: I've always really held on to the idea that like, 891 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 2: you know, and and really the stuff with you recording 892 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,520 Speaker 2: memos into your phone and then taking those things and 893 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 2: applying them into sound. I mean, there's so many tracks 894 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:15,960 Speaker 2: in Zodiac where there's stuf hidden in the things where 895 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 2: you would never even know. But right, but that, to me, 896 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 2: in my mind, that's no different than what we did 897 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 2: in Crestone. You know. I'm like, yeah, exactly right, I'm 898 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:27,799 Speaker 2: gonna record it in a way it's almost like you're 899 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 2: trying to sample something, like you're sampling, uh, like a 900 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,439 Speaker 2: location or a thing or a feeling, you know, because 901 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 2: there's been plenty of recordings where it's like, you know, 902 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,359 Speaker 2: you you thought the door latch in your house had 903 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 2: a weird sound, Let's record that, you know, and then 904 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,640 Speaker 2: how can we turn that into like an impact sound 905 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 2: or like a you know, a thud. I mean, we 906 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,400 Speaker 2: we have a queue where it's like your cat meowing, 907 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,520 Speaker 2: you know, right, right, and so like how do we 908 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,320 Speaker 2: you know? And I think I just think that stuff's interesting. 909 00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,080 Speaker 2: I think it's cool because it's, first of all, there's 910 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 2: no instrument on earth that's gonna make that sounds. It's 911 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,920 Speaker 2: literally one, it can't, yeah, right, so you can mirror it. 912 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,319 Speaker 2: You can mimic it, but like that is from that thing, 913 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,040 Speaker 2: right And at the end of the day too, also 914 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 2: it's about discernment, like you're looking at it, going does 915 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,960 Speaker 2: this serve the story you're trying to tell? Is this 916 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,399 Speaker 2: haunting in a way that it makes sense to use this, 917 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,360 Speaker 2: you know, And all shows are different, like Crestone, you know, 918 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 2: we had the experience were in Crestone. When I went 919 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:29,160 Speaker 2: to Montana, Montana for me was like totally different because 920 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,839 Speaker 2: to me, Montana was just expressly depressing. 921 00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:34,719 Speaker 4: You know. 922 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 2: I left Montana just I had like two weeks where 923 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,120 Speaker 2: I just couldn't do much because the the you know, 924 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,960 Speaker 2: being in a place that's that big and expansive and empty, 925 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,840 Speaker 2: and then going to the reservation and seeing the way 926 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,600 Speaker 2: that Native Americans were treated and having all that happen 927 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,880 Speaker 2: on the backdrop of like Black Lives Matter, what was 928 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,160 Speaker 2: going on in the States, or what was going on 929 00:48:58,239 --> 00:48:59,600 Speaker 2: you know in Atlanta at that time. 930 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,359 Speaker 1: There was a moment I remember that really kind of 931 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 1: stuck out to all of us and and you specifically. 932 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:08,800 Speaker 1: It was at some diner we were at do you 933 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:09,239 Speaker 1: remember this. 934 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,720 Speaker 2: Right, right? Yeah, we were interviewing somebody at the diner. 935 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:14,280 Speaker 2: It was a woman, she had a bunch of kids. 936 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,920 Speaker 2: They were all Native American, and there were like some 937 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 2: older people in a booth who were just white people. 938 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,040 Speaker 2: And there was a guy there who owned the place 939 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,279 Speaker 2: who was also white. And it was like they were 940 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:28,399 Speaker 2: making like derogatory comments like it with an earshot of 941 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,400 Speaker 2: this woman and her kids, and they like didn't flinch, 942 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,319 Speaker 2: like they were just it was like they you could 943 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:38,480 Speaker 2: tell it was so normalized, and it was remember, yeah, 944 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 2: I remember just being shocked. 945 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,760 Speaker 1: I remember like, what the fuck, Who's gonna do something 946 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 1: about this? But it was just like it went unnoticed, dude. 947 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 2: It just it zapped me. And I remember I came 948 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:49,440 Speaker 2: back and I was like, oh man, and then I 949 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 2: but then I remember as I started really working on 950 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:56,200 Speaker 2: that show and that music, that was a show where 951 00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,279 Speaker 2: most shows, I mean, the material is hard. And I 952 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,359 Speaker 2: think this is kind of an under talked about thing 953 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,920 Speaker 2: in true crime circles. It's like there's an emotional toll 954 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,319 Speaker 2: man that comes with working on this stuff, and like, 955 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,320 Speaker 2: you know, I remember working on those things and really 956 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,560 Speaker 2: just I in my mind it was like Ashley was 957 00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:17,680 Speaker 2: like in the room. You know, It's like I could 958 00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,359 Speaker 2: feel that. I mean that sounds really kind of airy 959 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 2: fairy or something, but like it's it's true. Like I 960 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,919 Speaker 2: really had this sense of like there was a real 961 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 2: responsibility there to tell that story in a way that 962 00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,919 Speaker 2: was gonna you know, hopefully honor her, but also really 963 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,200 Speaker 2: key into that place because you know, that place is 964 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,560 Speaker 2: it was so wild. It was such a wild place 965 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,680 Speaker 2: to go to and the experience of being there. But 966 00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:46,760 Speaker 2: also like and it wasn't just me being a white 967 00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:50,160 Speaker 2: guy walking around a reservation. It was like everybody we 968 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 2: talked to, man, they were just like, you don't understand, 969 00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:54,640 Speaker 2: Like you don't get it, you know, and you can't 970 00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,319 Speaker 2: get it, and. 971 00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,239 Speaker 1: And they're right, yeah, it's like I also have never 972 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,440 Speaker 1: seen this before. You know, you might hear about MMI 973 00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,279 Speaker 1: W and the news or something, but unless you've ever 974 00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,120 Speaker 1: seen things in real life. 975 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,239 Speaker 4: It puts a different perspective. 976 00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:13,040 Speaker 1: On on the way some people are being treated in 977 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:13,640 Speaker 1: the country. 978 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:15,640 Speaker 2: And it was it was kind of wild because like 979 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,839 Speaker 2: you know, years later, you know, with like Lily Gladstone 980 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,799 Speaker 2: was nominated for the Scorsese film and was you know, 981 00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,480 Speaker 2: and she's from there, She's from that reservation. It was like, 982 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,480 Speaker 2: so it was so wild. But it was like she 983 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:31,279 Speaker 2: would do all this press and talk about it. I 984 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:32,680 Speaker 2: was and it was like, yeah, I know, I know 985 00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:36,640 Speaker 2: exactly what she's talking about. Like and I mean all 986 00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,080 Speaker 2: the shows, all shows are different, you know, and with 987 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,880 Speaker 2: every show it's it's the same thing. Like I I 988 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,680 Speaker 2: will be sort of brought into the loop on what 989 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,480 Speaker 2: it's supposed to be mm hm, and then I will 990 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,719 Speaker 2: go kind of scurry off and I will just do 991 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,000 Speaker 2: a lot of research on my own. I'll scour you know, 992 00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,960 Speaker 2: the Internet for images and videos and anything I can 993 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,279 Speaker 2: get my hands on that's going to really help me 994 00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:05,040 Speaker 2: dial in to what it is and who it's about 995 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,799 Speaker 2: and that and sometimes, you know, I always tell people 996 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:10,879 Speaker 2: like it's funny, like we did High Strange, and High 997 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,200 Speaker 2: Strange was like this reprieve it was like, oh man, 998 00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,480 Speaker 2: there's no dead people in this one. Like it's like, right, 999 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,000 Speaker 2: we can tell this story. Yeah, no, it was. 1000 00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:18,480 Speaker 4: It was. 1001 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:20,880 Speaker 2: It was like a breath of fresh air in a 1002 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,640 Speaker 2: lot of ways in that way. And and you know, 1003 00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:25,319 Speaker 2: but all those shows, it's like that you just want 1004 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,560 Speaker 2: to do the best possible job that you can do 1005 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,759 Speaker 2: to you know, be respectful to the people that you're 1006 00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,080 Speaker 2: telling the story about and trying to sort of shine 1007 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,080 Speaker 2: a light on this thing. And you know, the music 1008 00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,480 Speaker 2: is always for me, it's always that way. It's about 1009 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,480 Speaker 2: I'm trying to be as emotionally true as I possibly 1010 00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,040 Speaker 2: can when I'm writing that music. It's never about like 1011 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,080 Speaker 2: we've got to ramp up into this moment or we 1012 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,880 Speaker 2: really got to sell this this dialogue. It's like it's 1013 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,799 Speaker 2: and you know, for me, it's always about just responding 1014 00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,440 Speaker 2: emotionally to what's going on and being true to that. 1015 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:07,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, every season of Up and Vanished tonally has a 1016 00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:11,120 Speaker 1: different feel to it in the music, and there is 1017 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,360 Speaker 1: there's obviously some through lines. There's a couple of different 1018 00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:19,920 Speaker 1: sounds that you've even named, like right pain piano or. 1019 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:20,879 Speaker 4: What what are some of them. 1020 00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:24,400 Speaker 2: There's one sound in particular that I've always woven into 1021 00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,680 Speaker 2: Up and Vanished and it's sort of this chimy like 1022 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:32,040 Speaker 2: bell piano kind of sound that's really haunting and it's 1023 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,280 Speaker 2: kind of you know, coming into that show, what was interesting, 1024 00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,880 Speaker 2: like you had an established theme for that show, You 1025 00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,759 Speaker 2: had a callback that is very distinctive, and people as 1026 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,360 Speaker 2: soon as people hear it, they're like up and vanished, 1027 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:48,600 Speaker 2: and so my goal coming into season two was how 1028 00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:54,799 Speaker 2: can I sort of match that energy? But for because 1029 00:53:55,000 --> 00:54:00,719 Speaker 2: what's interesting about scoring anything is especially a podcast, especially podcast, 1030 00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,360 Speaker 2: is that you are a huge component of that show. 1031 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:09,440 Speaker 2: And so to me, I'm trying to honor the material 1032 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,600 Speaker 2: and I'm trying to respect the material, but I'm also 1033 00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,680 Speaker 2: trying to support your place inside of it, right, And 1034 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,239 Speaker 2: so like High Strange is a great example, Like High 1035 00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,120 Speaker 2: Strange has all these flavors to that music that we 1036 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,600 Speaker 2: would never do in a different in another show, but 1037 00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,960 Speaker 2: we did it because to me, to me, High Strange 1038 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,120 Speaker 2: is like the the embodiment of you as a podcast. 1039 00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:32,799 Speaker 2: It's like all of your curiosities and all of your 1040 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,680 Speaker 2: like you know, And it was like, because you know, 1041 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,440 Speaker 2: you're talking about a material that is a curiosity, It's like, 1042 00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:41,560 Speaker 2: I'm really interested in UFOs and I kind of want 1043 00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:43,480 Speaker 2: to pursue this and see what's up. And I think 1044 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:45,120 Speaker 2: we proved a lot of people wrong with that show, 1045 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:46,480 Speaker 2: because I think when it came out, it was like 1046 00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:48,280 Speaker 2: a lot of people were like, what's this It's about UFO. 1047 00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,000 Speaker 2: But I think people listen to it and we're like, oh, 1048 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,880 Speaker 2: this is actually pretty awesome, you know, because. 1049 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,080 Speaker 1: It's a fun topic right right, And I think having 1050 00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,640 Speaker 1: fun with it is just makes it a fun experience 1051 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:00,600 Speaker 1: for the listener or the viewer. 1052 00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,120 Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be so serious, like. 1053 00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think both High Strange and Radio 1054 00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:07,799 Speaker 2: Rental are that. I think it's like those are two 1055 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,799 Speaker 2: shows where it's like, this is a this is like 1056 00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,480 Speaker 2: a really it's a it's a curiosity and I want 1057 00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,560 Speaker 2: to like pull on this thread and see where it goes. 1058 00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,440 Speaker 2: I mean, for the longest time, scoring Radio Rental was 1059 00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,520 Speaker 2: like one of my favorite things because it was like, Okay, 1060 00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,360 Speaker 2: this is like your unsolved mysteries. You know, it's like 1061 00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,480 Speaker 2: your sort of we're gonna get these people to tell 1062 00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,359 Speaker 2: their story and it's going to be creepy, and it's 1063 00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,480 Speaker 2: a and the whole thing is an anthology. It's not 1064 00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,680 Speaker 2: a it's not a like, uh, you know, every episode 1065 00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:35,360 Speaker 2: isn't deeply connected to the next one. It's like you 1066 00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,120 Speaker 2: can jump into it wherever you want and you know, 1067 00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,440 Speaker 2: have kind of a creepy experience. And it was so 1068 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,279 Speaker 2: much fun writing that music because you could key into 1069 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,120 Speaker 2: it and have fun in that way. And High Strange 1070 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,759 Speaker 2: was was definitely that way. You know, when we went 1071 00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,840 Speaker 2: to Nome, you know, for season four of Up and Vanished. 1072 00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:56,360 Speaker 2: You know that is not that you know, going to 1073 00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:01,160 Speaker 2: Nome is uh is, It's it's a whole other animal. 1074 00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,160 Speaker 2: You're going into a place that is literally on the 1075 00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,520 Speaker 2: edge of the world, and you're there and you're you know, 1076 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:09,520 Speaker 2: the at least for me, I'm looking at it the 1077 00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:13,280 Speaker 2: whole time, and I'm going, you know, there's no there's 1078 00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:17,439 Speaker 2: not a like mischievous curiosity here. This is like I'm 1079 00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:21,560 Speaker 2: trying to document something that happened, and I'm trying to 1080 00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:25,759 Speaker 2: document a place, and I'm trying to key into it's 1081 00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:30,879 Speaker 2: not only an indigenous population and indigenous people, it's also 1082 00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,320 Speaker 2: a group of people in general who have just gone 1083 00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:36,880 Speaker 2: who are okay, living on the edge of the world, 1084 00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:41,040 Speaker 2: on the edge of this continent, you know where you 1085 00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,800 Speaker 2: just you would stand there and look out and there's nothing, 1086 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:44,279 Speaker 2: you know. 1087 00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,400 Speaker 1: And there's sure that we took I mean yeah, like 1088 00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:48,399 Speaker 1: we had just got there and you and I walked 1089 00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,960 Speaker 1: off the main road, front street, just to the edge 1090 00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,040 Speaker 1: where the water was, and I think you, I think 1091 00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,200 Speaker 1: you took a picture of me in that exact point 1092 00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,799 Speaker 1: that I'm talking about but we were just both steering 1093 00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:03,520 Speaker 1: at often you could see nothing, and right if you 1094 00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:08,319 Speaker 1: looked at Google maps where you were, you're literally on the. 1095 00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:09,040 Speaker 4: Edge of the world. 1096 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,440 Speaker 1: If there is ever a description that, there's not a 1097 00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:16,800 Speaker 1: better description for that place than that, And you really 1098 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:18,840 Speaker 1: do feel it when you're sitting out there. 1099 00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,680 Speaker 2: It's hard to it's it's really hard, I think, to 1100 00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,240 Speaker 2: get across to people without having gone there and experience it. 1101 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,320 Speaker 2: But you know, you're looking out at that water, and 1102 00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:30,480 Speaker 2: a bunch of things go through your head. You're like, 1103 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,000 Speaker 2: I'm first of all, how far north you are is 1104 00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:38,880 Speaker 2: really intense, like you realize because the sun doesn't go down, 1105 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,480 Speaker 2: so are you're up there? And then you're looking out 1106 00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:46,920 Speaker 2: across this water and it's frigid, it's like very cold. 1107 00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:51,000 Speaker 2: So it's like, not only are you so far removed? 1108 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,120 Speaker 2: And I remember in my own sort of I was naive, 1109 00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:55,480 Speaker 2: and I remember you're like, we're going to fly into 1110 00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:56,840 Speaker 2: an anchorage and I was like great, And I was like, 1111 00:57:56,840 --> 00:57:58,320 Speaker 2: so how long does it take to drive to Nome? 1112 00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,200 Speaker 2: And you're like, no, no, you don't drive in Nome, have 1113 00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:04,880 Speaker 2: to fly. There's no roads. A lot of it's like 1114 00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:08,240 Speaker 2: protected you know Land and indigenous lands, so there's no 1115 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,440 Speaker 2: highways you fly there, and so you get on a 1116 00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:16,120 Speaker 2: smaller plane and you just fly to home. And that 1117 00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,240 Speaker 2: I think was the first sort of inkling I had 1118 00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:22,200 Speaker 2: of like, Okay, this is different, this is different than 1119 00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:25,560 Speaker 2: anything else we'd done. And yeah, standing out there, it's 1120 00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:29,920 Speaker 2: like you feel the cold, you feel the location. You 1121 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,080 Speaker 2: feel you know not not only the location being far away, 1122 00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,920 Speaker 2: but also the like geography of it, how how far 1123 00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,800 Speaker 2: north you are, and and then you know that that 1124 00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,320 Speaker 2: not only is the landscape unforgiving, a lot of the 1125 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,240 Speaker 2: people there are very unforgiving too. I mean people go there. 1126 00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,680 Speaker 2: I remember having conversations with peopeople. You know, same kind 1127 00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:53,560 Speaker 2: of thing as as Crestone, but also different, like the 1128 00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:55,520 Speaker 2: p I had a friend who spent a lot of 1129 00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:59,440 Speaker 2: time living in Anchorage and he hit me up. He's like, hey, 1130 00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:00,880 Speaker 2: I heard you're going to Alaska. And I was like, yeah, 1131 00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:02,360 Speaker 2: I was going to Anchorage and he's like, you're just 1132 00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:03,760 Speaker 2: gonna be an Anchorage and I said, no, I'm going 1133 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:05,840 Speaker 2: to Nome and he said he told me, He's like 1134 00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,880 Speaker 2: be careful and Gnome. He's like, Gnome is a has 1135 00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 2: a reputation being a hard drinking, hard living city in 1136 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,880 Speaker 2: a hard drinking, hard living state. You know, he was like, 1137 00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:17,520 Speaker 2: he did not mince words about it. He's like, it's 1138 00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:20,960 Speaker 2: it's it can be very you know, it can be 1139 00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:26,200 Speaker 2: a very oppressive location. And you know, walking around there, 1140 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,560 Speaker 2: you definitely felt that. You know, you definitely felt that. 1141 00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,640 Speaker 2: And so to me, it was like coming being up there, 1142 00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:36,280 Speaker 2: wandering around and you don't have cell service anywhere, so 1143 00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:37,640 Speaker 2: it's not like you can just take your phone out 1144 00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:39,840 Speaker 2: and be like, hey, I need to call somebody. You're 1145 00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,360 Speaker 2: not calling anybody. You're on your own, buddy. You're you're 1146 00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,840 Speaker 2: back in the in the in the late eighties, you know, I. 1147 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,600 Speaker 1: Mean digesting that stuff, like taking all that in because 1148 00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,600 Speaker 1: this is like what you've done with every season right right, 1149 00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,320 Speaker 1: You've been able. You've plopped yourself right in the middle 1150 00:59:55,400 --> 01:00:04,120 Speaker 1: of a of an environment that is unfamiliar, often terrifying, scary, different, 1151 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:08,800 Speaker 1: loving all these different things. This season of Up and 1152 01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:13,480 Speaker 1: Vanished in the Midnight Sun, Joseph Balderas Florence lar Pialla 1153 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:20,600 Speaker 1: nom Alaska. All the factors here musically, sonically, as you've 1154 01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:25,840 Speaker 1: built the soundtrack of this show thus far, what to 1155 01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:31,400 Speaker 1: You has stood out as something new and strong and 1156 01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:36,520 Speaker 1: different that you feel has propelled this show or has 1157 01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:38,920 Speaker 1: become part of its identity. The first thing I'm thinking 1158 01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,000 Speaker 1: of a few months ago, you were at my house 1159 01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,200 Speaker 1: and you were talking about this thing called Shepherd's tone, 1160 01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:48,280 Speaker 1: right and for and I didn't I thought you. I 1161 01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:52,800 Speaker 1: thought you meant Shepherd's Pie, which is also very delicious. 1162 01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:56,240 Speaker 1: But uh, just for those who don't know, because I 1163 01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:57,919 Speaker 1: didn't either, what is Shepherd's tone? 1164 01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:03,120 Speaker 2: So shepherd'stone is like an auditory illusion where the perception 1165 01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:08,000 Speaker 2: is that the sound is rising in pitch forever, like 1166 01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:09,800 Speaker 2: it just keeps going up and up and up and 1167 01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,080 Speaker 2: up and up. It's been around for a very long 1168 01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:18,000 Speaker 2: time and it was kind of popularized. I think it 1169 01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:23,320 Speaker 2: really got popularized after Dunkirk. The movie Dunkirk, Hanszimmer used 1170 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:27,800 Speaker 2: it as like an effect essentially, But the whole notion 1171 01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:32,080 Speaker 2: is that there's essentially three sounds happening at once. There's 1172 01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:39,520 Speaker 2: the highest octave goes up, the center sound stays steady, 1173 01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:42,400 Speaker 2: and the bottom sound goes up, and the top two 1174 01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,680 Speaker 2: are sort of cross fading in volume, and the middle 1175 01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:48,840 Speaker 2: one stays stays consistent. So you get this effect where 1176 01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:51,560 Speaker 2: the sounds are just endlessly cycling through each other, and 1177 01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,920 Speaker 2: it gives this perception that sound is constantly rising. It's 1178 01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:56,480 Speaker 2: just going up and up and up and up and up. 1179 01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,720 Speaker 2: But it never achieves that payoff. It never gets to 1180 01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,640 Speaker 2: where it's supposed to be going and. 1181 01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:07,560 Speaker 1: Like a real ascension would go and then it was 1182 01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:11,320 Speaker 1: good there. Yeah, but it's it's an auditory illusion. 1183 01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:13,960 Speaker 2: It is. It's it's sort of like a weird I mean, 1184 01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,920 Speaker 2: it's like an auditory like mc esure drawing or something like. 1185 01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:23,240 Speaker 2: It doesn't it doesn't make sense. But I would say 1186 01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:27,360 Speaker 2: if there was ever a sound that you would that 1187 01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:29,880 Speaker 2: I would want to associate to a place like Gnome, 1188 01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:33,120 Speaker 2: it would be something like that, because there is a 1189 01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:40,320 Speaker 2: definite sense of all at once. You're experiencing similar things 1190 01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:42,920 Speaker 2: to what we experienced when we were in Browning, Like 1191 01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:45,480 Speaker 2: you're you're in an indigenous you're in an area, but 1192 01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:49,920 Speaker 2: it's not a reservation, but everything about it is fairly 1193 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:53,160 Speaker 2: you know, if you want to live in Gnome, you 1194 01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:57,280 Speaker 2: have to want to live innme like no one people 1195 01:02:57,320 --> 01:02:59,960 Speaker 2: that go there. It's like the homes are are stick framed, 1196 01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:05,280 Speaker 2: they're designed to withstand the elements everybody there drives a 1197 01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:10,560 Speaker 2: truck or an ATV. You know, everything's covered in mud. 1198 01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:12,920 Speaker 2: You're not there trying to have like a nice yard. 1199 01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:16,360 Speaker 2: You know, you're you're there because you do. And it's 1200 01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,880 Speaker 2: one of those places too, where you're if you're gonna 1201 01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,160 Speaker 2: live there, you are like a skilled tradesman. Like you 1202 01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:25,000 Speaker 2: you make something or you do something, because in order 1203 01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:27,800 Speaker 2: for you to survive there, you have to provide for 1204 01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:31,240 Speaker 2: the community. And it's it's not a huge community. And 1205 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,600 Speaker 2: but then you know, also Cooper and I we drove 1206 01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:36,160 Speaker 2: up in the We took the truck one day and 1207 01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:38,280 Speaker 2: drove up a mountain and we're on top of this 1208 01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:41,880 Speaker 2: mountain and there's like pieces, there's like remnants of a glacier, 1209 01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:45,720 Speaker 2: and you look out and you see the majesty of 1210 01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:49,560 Speaker 2: like where you are so so on the backdrop of 1211 01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:54,680 Speaker 2: this place that is so utilitarian and cold and unflinching. 1212 01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:57,280 Speaker 2: You also look out and you're like, this is one 1213 01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:00,680 Speaker 2: of the most beautiful places I've ever seen, you know, 1214 01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:05,280 Speaker 2: So you wind up in this weird uh. It's like 1215 01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:11,240 Speaker 2: this strange duality of like, Okay, everything about this place 1216 01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:13,760 Speaker 2: looks so picturesque. It looks like a painting. But then 1217 01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:15,440 Speaker 2: when you go into it, it's it's sort of like 1218 01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:17,720 Speaker 2: in the beginning of Blue Velvet, you know, it's like 1219 01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:21,720 Speaker 2: the sort of beautiful neighborhood. Everything's perfect white picket fence, 1220 01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,000 Speaker 2: and then they zoom into the grass and you go 1221 01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,400 Speaker 2: beneath the blades and there's all these insects and things 1222 01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:29,720 Speaker 2: that are like, you know, crows. It's like, you know 1223 01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:32,720 Speaker 2: there's something going on under the surface that maybe is 1224 01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,840 Speaker 2: not so good, and you know that there's people here 1225 01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:39,560 Speaker 2: that are struggling, that are trying to escape, struggling with addiction, 1226 01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:40,840 Speaker 2: you know. 1227 01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:41,800 Speaker 5: Uh. 1228 01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:46,160 Speaker 2: And it's a darkness, like there's a there's a long 1229 01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:49,880 Speaker 2: shadow to that place, and I feel like, you know, 1230 01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:53,320 Speaker 2: musically for this season, that's what I really tried to 1231 01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:56,520 Speaker 2: key into. It's like the wind of the place, the 1232 01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,680 Speaker 2: sound of that eeriness about it. You know, there's a 1233 01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:03,840 Speaker 2: big graveyard that sort of overlooks all of the downtown 1234 01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:05,600 Speaker 2: Nome and you get up there, it's all these like 1235 01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,240 Speaker 2: white crosses, you know, that are been stuck into the 1236 01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:11,680 Speaker 2: ground to mark these graves. So you just look out. 1237 01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:15,720 Speaker 2: It's a giant hillside of white crosses, and it's it's 1238 01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,560 Speaker 2: haunting man, it's a haunting experience to be up there 1239 01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:21,600 Speaker 2: and see that. It just it really rattles you. 1240 01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:25,800 Speaker 1: That first fifteen to twenty minutes of the second installment 1241 01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:29,640 Speaker 1: this season, we wanted to come back hit you in 1242 01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:32,320 Speaker 1: the face with this intensity. 1243 01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:35,160 Speaker 4: That we're talking about, right. We wanted it to be intense, 1244 01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:38,960 Speaker 4: and I wanted it to be ever ascending, And so 1245 01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:42,720 Speaker 4: we took this shepherd's pie. Shepherd's pie. 1246 01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:43,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, we took this. 1247 01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:49,040 Speaker 1: We took this shepherd's tone concept. Uh, walk me through, Like, 1248 01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:50,920 Speaker 1: how'd you even start that? 1249 01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:52,280 Speaker 4: So? 1250 01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:58,200 Speaker 2: I was trying to achieve that with strings, and it 1251 01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:01,240 Speaker 2: was you know, because I think with a with a synth, 1252 01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:03,800 Speaker 2: I mean, you could do it probably pretty easily with 1253 01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:05,440 Speaker 2: a synth. I was trying to achieve it in a 1254 01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:09,040 Speaker 2: way that it felt. I mean, season three and season 1255 01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:13,720 Speaker 2: four especially have been heavy. I've I've kind of made 1256 01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:17,080 Speaker 2: it my mission with Tenderfoot over the past, you know, however, 1257 01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:22,120 Speaker 2: many years to avoid all the tropes of true crime music. Right, 1258 01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:23,800 Speaker 2: So I'm looking at I'm going, Okay, I don't want 1259 01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:25,880 Speaker 2: to harp, I don't want any marimba, I don't want 1260 01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:29,240 Speaker 2: any true crime piano with echo on it or reverb. 1261 01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,040 Speaker 2: I don't want any drunk like, no drones like I've read. 1262 01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:36,760 Speaker 2: So for me, when we walked into season four, the 1263 01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,240 Speaker 2: first thing we started thinking about was strings, and so 1264 01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,960 Speaker 2: we ended up recording you know, we went and we 1265 01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:46,480 Speaker 2: had the theme music from Up and Vanished. I worked 1266 01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,520 Speaker 2: with my buddy Jordan Lenning in Nashville. We did arrangements 1267 01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:52,120 Speaker 2: for a string quartet and recorded a string quartet just 1268 01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:55,320 Speaker 2: to do it. Why not, you know, And and then 1269 01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:57,120 Speaker 2: out of that, I think a lot of the sounds 1270 01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:01,440 Speaker 2: ended up being really organic, you know, lots of strings, 1271 01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:03,920 Speaker 2: lots of and so when we started talking about the 1272 01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:05,720 Speaker 2: Shepherd Stone, I was like, okay, well, how can we 1273 01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:10,600 Speaker 2: do this in a way that feels like this organic 1274 01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:14,640 Speaker 2: thing you know, feels like this, you know, the grit 1275 01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:18,880 Speaker 2: and the texture of the place of gnome you know, 1276 01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:22,200 Speaker 2: as an as an actual played instrument. And so for 1277 01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:24,000 Speaker 2: me it was like, how do we take a stringed 1278 01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:28,680 Speaker 2: instrument and create this effect where again a natural sound 1279 01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:32,720 Speaker 2: made unnatural where you know, a cello, you know, there's 1280 01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:34,240 Speaker 2: a cello behind me here, It's like a cello is 1281 01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,840 Speaker 2: only going to go so high, you know, how how 1282 01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:39,520 Speaker 2: do you how do you do that? And you know, thankfully, 1283 01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:41,680 Speaker 2: you know, thanks to the shepherd Stone. It's like we 1284 01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:46,040 Speaker 2: created a sound where it just continuously keeps rising, and 1285 01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:49,480 Speaker 2: there's something uneasy about that. I think, even if you're 1286 01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:52,200 Speaker 2: not a musician, your brain goes, wait a minute, this 1287 01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:54,800 Speaker 2: shouldn't be happening, you know, and it kind of throws 1288 01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:55,800 Speaker 2: you for a loop a little bit. 1289 01:07:55,840 --> 01:08:00,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's uneasy. I wanted the audience to consciously 1290 01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:04,520 Speaker 1: think when is this going to end? Or or like 1291 01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:09,080 Speaker 1: like it keeps your attention and then there's a reprieve 1292 01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:12,600 Speaker 1: and you go, holy shit, and then we can kind of, 1293 01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:17,719 Speaker 1: you know, recalibrate as a listener, you know, the listener 1294 01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:22,520 Speaker 1: can now recalibrate. Speak like the strings that you recorded 1295 01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:27,160 Speaker 1: for Up and vanished this season, there's a whole like 1296 01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:30,080 Speaker 1: there's different renditions of the theme song and a bunch 1297 01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:32,240 Speaker 1: of cues that we've used throughout. 1298 01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:34,679 Speaker 4: In the Midnight Sun and there. 1299 01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:38,519 Speaker 1: There's a little there's those there's a part in one 1300 01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:41,439 Speaker 1: of the new cues you made the bit bit bump 1301 01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:46,160 Speaker 1: up up up that one and it there's this really 1302 01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:52,519 Speaker 1: rough sounding cello and it's like, yeah, what is that from? 1303 01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:55,360 Speaker 4: And like and I'll pull it out and show you 1304 01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:56,920 Speaker 4: but you know what it is like. Yeah. 1305 01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:59,920 Speaker 2: So one of the things we did we we base 1306 01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:02,880 Speaker 2: We booked a session. It was like an all day 1307 01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:09,400 Speaker 2: session in Nashville, and my buddy Jordan came in and 1308 01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:14,559 Speaker 2: engineered the session and we did all the renditions of 1309 01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:17,320 Speaker 2: the theme and recorded all that and then and that 1310 01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:20,040 Speaker 2: was kind of the first half of the session, and 1311 01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:23,640 Speaker 2: then the second half of the session we kind of 1312 01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:29,200 Speaker 2: earmarked for just try and stuff. And I told Jordan 1313 01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:31,240 Speaker 2: going into it, I said, you know, we talked about 1314 01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:33,719 Speaker 2: what kind of players we wanted to get for the session, 1315 01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:37,000 Speaker 2: and I said, you know, who do you know that's 1316 01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:38,960 Speaker 2: going to be? Like who I can go in and 1317 01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:41,880 Speaker 2: talk to and say, hey, what's that what's the weirdest 1318 01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:45,320 Speaker 2: like articulation that you can think of, or what's a 1319 01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:49,080 Speaker 2: weird sound you can make with your viola that no 1320 01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:50,599 Speaker 2: one ever asked you to make, but you think it's 1321 01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:54,160 Speaker 2: kind of interesting. And so we went into that session 1322 01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:57,479 Speaker 2: kind of the second half of it just playing around 1323 01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:59,719 Speaker 2: and just you know, going because we had them isolated 1324 01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:01,040 Speaker 2: and we had them in the booth and we were like, 1325 01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:05,840 Speaker 2: just let's make weird sounds. And what I ended up 1326 01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:09,600 Speaker 2: with was essentially a folder, like a library of just 1327 01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:16,480 Speaker 2: odd sounds. And uh, you know though again talking about sampling, 1328 01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:18,120 Speaker 2: it's kind of that's kind of the way I look 1329 01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:20,759 Speaker 2: at it, like I always lay I've laid those sounds 1330 01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:23,280 Speaker 2: into so many things, so many shows, so many episodes 1331 01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:26,920 Speaker 2: of radio rental, so many Uh, you know, I have 1332 01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:30,360 Speaker 2: worked that stuff in to a lot of places. You know, 1333 01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:32,960 Speaker 2: we're talking about the tape machine that we had in 1334 01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:35,880 Speaker 2: I think we had that. We bought that a Maine. 1335 01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:37,840 Speaker 2: It was like an old little reel and like we 1336 01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:39,920 Speaker 2: went in and recorded all the mechanics, you know, all 1337 01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:42,360 Speaker 2: the weird because those are such clunky switches and they 1338 01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:44,720 Speaker 2: sound really cool. So Cooper went in and record him 1339 01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:46,519 Speaker 2: on and those have been in I can't tell you 1340 01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:48,240 Speaker 2: how many shows we've used those in, But it's like 1341 01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:50,400 Speaker 2: they just show up everywhere, and it's kind of cool 1342 01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:51,920 Speaker 2: because in a way, they kind of become like this 1343 01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:56,880 Speaker 2: audible fingerprint right where there's a memory there. But also 1344 01:10:56,960 --> 01:11:00,400 Speaker 2: there's this sort of distinctiveness. Again, those sounds are one 1345 01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:02,559 Speaker 2: of one. You know, it's like you you just get 1346 01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:04,559 Speaker 2: them and you're they're weird, and you get to use 1347 01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,840 Speaker 2: them in a weird way. And you know, I can't 1348 01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,519 Speaker 2: think of a better place to lay those sounds into 1349 01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,280 Speaker 2: than Nome because Nome Gnome is one of one like 1350 01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:17,280 Speaker 2: that's there's there's nowhere else like that. So, you know 1351 01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:24,320 Speaker 2: it it really served the story to represent that place 1352 01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:29,640 Speaker 2: sonically in such a weird way. And yeah, I I 1353 01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:32,120 Speaker 2: think four Season four has been really interesting in that 1354 01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:36,000 Speaker 2: way because it's been a lot of uh it's I 1355 01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,720 Speaker 2: think it stretched us creatively in terms of how we 1356 01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:41,879 Speaker 2: tell the story and how we tell the story sonically, 1357 01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:46,160 Speaker 2: and you know, and and really trying to and again 1358 01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:47,760 Speaker 2: it goes back to the experience of being in a 1359 01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:50,360 Speaker 2: place and just experiencing it. You know. I remember one 1360 01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:52,599 Speaker 2: night I woke up and I was staying in that 1361 01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:55,360 Speaker 2: there was like a hotel. We're kind of split up. 1362 01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:57,240 Speaker 2: You guys were in an Airbnb and like there were 1363 01:11:57,240 --> 01:11:58,599 Speaker 2: a few of us that were staying in the hotel 1364 01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:00,519 Speaker 2: and the hotel was co it was like on the 1365 01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:05,240 Speaker 2: other side of town. And I remember I woke up 1366 01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:07,200 Speaker 2: one night, it was like three in the morning or something, 1367 01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:09,519 Speaker 2: and I walked over the curtains because they have blackout 1368 01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:12,599 Speaker 2: curtains everywhere because you had to. But I remember they're 1369 01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:15,120 Speaker 2: saying like, oh yeah, the sun sets between such and 1370 01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:17,840 Speaker 2: such time and comes back at like four. So I 1371 01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:19,320 Speaker 2: got up and I saw the time, and I was like, oh, 1372 01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:21,439 Speaker 2: I bet it's dark outside. And I like pull open 1373 01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:24,680 Speaker 2: the curtains and it was like six o'clock. You know, 1374 01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:29,080 Speaker 2: it's like not even remotely dark. It it's it messes 1375 01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:31,320 Speaker 2: with you, right, And it was, I mean it was. 1376 01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:36,280 Speaker 2: It was the the the Nolan's Insomnia film, you know, 1377 01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:38,439 Speaker 2: when Pacino's like going through the whole thing and he 1378 01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:41,120 Speaker 2: can't sleep. It's like, absolutely is that. And it's like 1379 01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:44,679 Speaker 2: and it's weird because it messes with your circadian rhythm, 1380 01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:46,840 Speaker 2: you know, whether you like it or not. I always 1381 01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:48,360 Speaker 2: tell people, like when I was inna my Fiels, you're 1382 01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:49,920 Speaker 2: not used to it. I feel like I took a 1383 01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:53,000 Speaker 2: series of naps. I never really slap, you know. And 1384 01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:57,680 Speaker 2: there's a frenzy. There's a frenzy that comes with that 1385 01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,840 Speaker 2: mentally where you are walking around. I mean obviously Pacino's 1386 01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:04,360 Speaker 2: like sort of you know, plays that up big time 1387 01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:06,679 Speaker 2: for the for the film, but like you do feel 1388 01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,920 Speaker 2: this sort of like you're sort of like sleep walking. 1389 01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:13,519 Speaker 2: You know, there's like a strange experience that comes with 1390 01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:18,240 Speaker 2: having all of your rhythms like screwed up and and 1391 01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:20,720 Speaker 2: so yeah, I think, you know, looking at the music 1392 01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:22,840 Speaker 2: and thinking about the music like that's very much part 1393 01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,720 Speaker 2: of that. And I think the Shepherd's tone plays into 1394 01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:29,599 Speaker 2: that big time. I think, you know, using a lot 1395 01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:34,280 Speaker 2: of weird using the strings in weird ways plays into 1396 01:13:34,280 --> 01:13:36,840 Speaker 2: that big time. I think with the second half of 1397 01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:39,120 Speaker 2: this season as well, we kind of shifted gears a 1398 01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:41,880 Speaker 2: little bit too. There's a musical distinction I think between 1399 01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:44,320 Speaker 2: the first half and the second half, dealing with Flow 1400 01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:49,280 Speaker 2: and then dealing with Joseph, and you know, Joseph his situation, 1401 01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:52,880 Speaker 2: you know, in terms of where he disappeared, they think, 1402 01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:57,800 Speaker 2: and you know, it was more about like, Okay, now 1403 01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:00,280 Speaker 2: you're in a space that's not in Gnome. You're little 1404 01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:01,000 Speaker 2: further away. 1405 01:14:01,280 --> 01:14:03,200 Speaker 4: You got home, and then you got forty miles out 1406 01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:03,880 Speaker 4: of them, right. 1407 01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:07,040 Speaker 2: Right, You're in the sort of wild country, and the 1408 01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:10,559 Speaker 2: wild country is like unforgiving and it will swallow you whole. 1409 01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:14,760 Speaker 2: It's also beautiful, you know, It's like there's a breathtaking 1410 01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:16,760 Speaker 2: beauty to that place. So it was less so it 1411 01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:20,360 Speaker 2: became more about like maybe the second half of the 1412 01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:23,280 Speaker 2: show is more like a suite, you know, maybe it's 1413 01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:25,840 Speaker 2: more like a you know, there's a piece of music 1414 01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:28,880 Speaker 2: that's written for strings, you know, for like a chamber 1415 01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:33,160 Speaker 2: or you know, a small section orchestra, that kind of thing, 1416 01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:36,479 Speaker 2: and then we build that out. And so for me, 1417 01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:41,520 Speaker 2: you know, I leaned really into a lot of the 1418 01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:44,280 Speaker 2: composer influences that I have, you know, people like John 1419 01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:48,439 Speaker 2: Luther Adams and Johansen, and you know, trying to think 1420 01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:51,519 Speaker 2: about how to score it in a way that is 1421 01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:54,519 Speaker 2: going to lean heavier into strings than we've probably ever 1422 01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:59,439 Speaker 2: done with a with a Tenderfoot show. So it's been cool, man. 1423 01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:01,960 Speaker 2: I think I always tell people like that what's great 1424 01:15:01,960 --> 01:15:04,720 Speaker 2: about scoring podcasts is like they're never the same. They're 1425 01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:07,680 Speaker 2: always different. You know. It's like when you sign on 1426 01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:11,320 Speaker 2: to be an in house composer for a production company 1427 01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:13,760 Speaker 2: or something, it's like, you know, I'm sure there are 1428 01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:15,600 Speaker 2: many places where it's like, yeah, you're just you're like 1429 01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:17,519 Speaker 2: an assembly line and you're just churning out the same 1430 01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:19,240 Speaker 2: thing over and over and over again. I never feel 1431 01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:22,000 Speaker 2: that way about Tenderfoot. I feel like every show is different, 1432 01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:26,839 Speaker 2: presents its own different challenges. It's different, you know, different 1433 01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:30,880 Speaker 2: ways of thinking, and it always requires you to kind 1434 01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:36,439 Speaker 2: of challenge yourself in cool ways creatively when you're making 1435 01:15:36,439 --> 01:15:36,880 Speaker 2: the music. 1436 01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:43,479 Speaker 1: So just kind of like in conclusion here as a creator, 1437 01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:47,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I can't even think of the number of 1438 01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:53,479 Speaker 1: cues you've made just for Tenderfoot alone. I mean, I 1439 01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:56,840 Speaker 1: want to say it's in the thousands, and I'm probably. 1440 01:15:57,040 --> 01:15:59,439 Speaker 2: I would say, like the Atlanta Monster estimate, like the 1441 01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:03,080 Speaker 2: three and a half hours, it's probably in the ballpark, 1442 01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:07,200 Speaker 2: Like I think every show typically winds up around that 1443 01:16:07,320 --> 01:16:09,559 Speaker 2: amount generally. 1444 01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:16,560 Speaker 1: So you've made You've made thousands of songs, cues, atmospheric 1445 01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:22,040 Speaker 1: sounds for Tenderfoot, podcasts for for Up and Vanished, I've 1446 01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:28,720 Speaker 1: made hundreds of podcast episodes. These shows are about dark subjects, 1447 01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:36,519 Speaker 1: sad subjects. I will send you a raw edit of 1448 01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:43,400 Speaker 1: an interview where it may be the victim's family grieving, 1449 01:16:44,240 --> 01:16:49,320 Speaker 1: and you're scoring this having made all these cues, done 1450 01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:53,960 Speaker 1: all this work for all of these years. What is 1451 01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:57,240 Speaker 1: it that keeps you going and keeps you on the 1452 01:16:57,240 --> 01:17:02,960 Speaker 1: straight and narrow and inspires you to make something when 1453 01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:08,000 Speaker 1: it's very easily sad and dark and can influence you 1454 01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:11,680 Speaker 1: in that way and maybe even be negative. How like, 1455 01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:16,920 Speaker 1: referring to this season, how are you getting up off 1456 01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:21,400 Speaker 1: your ass and thinking of a new idea again and 1457 01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:24,559 Speaker 1: feeling inspired and feeling like you're doing something. 1458 01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:32,800 Speaker 2: I think the thing that the thing that goes through 1459 01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:39,400 Speaker 2: my mind is the process of just trying to be present. Right. So, 1460 01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:43,600 Speaker 2: life is always life is full of drama. There's just 1461 01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:46,439 Speaker 2: so much drama everywhere. It exists for all of us. 1462 01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:53,080 Speaker 2: And these stories are dramatic stories. They're real things that happened, 1463 01:17:53,680 --> 01:17:58,360 Speaker 2: and these have real ramifications for people, and those people 1464 01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:00,439 Speaker 2: some of those people are gone. Some of those people 1465 01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:04,799 Speaker 2: are still here and they're just reeling with the reality 1466 01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:07,240 Speaker 2: of they've lost a loved one or a loved one 1467 01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:13,760 Speaker 2: is committed a crime. And I think for me, what 1468 01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:18,000 Speaker 2: keeps me going is just the work itself, the ability 1469 01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:22,120 Speaker 2: to be able to be present in that story and 1470 01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:25,519 Speaker 2: tell that story in that moment. You know, all of 1471 01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:30,559 Speaker 2: these things become sort of parts of that journey of 1472 01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:33,479 Speaker 2: like you carry them with you. I mean, you know, 1473 01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:39,959 Speaker 2: all of the stories that you've told, all of the 1474 01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:43,559 Speaker 2: people that you've covered with up and vanished, those people 1475 01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:45,800 Speaker 2: are always going to be with you. It's like I 1476 01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:47,880 Speaker 2: was saying about feeling like Ashley was in the room 1477 01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:51,680 Speaker 2: when I was working on season three. That's never going 1478 01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:57,640 Speaker 2: to leave me, you know. And I think that those feelings, 1479 01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:02,560 Speaker 2: as heavy as they get, I know that those feelings 1480 01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:06,440 Speaker 2: are gonna be part of a process, and that process, 1481 01:19:06,479 --> 01:19:10,280 Speaker 2: for me, is going to produce truth. I'm just gonna 1482 01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:13,120 Speaker 2: say the thing. And I'm a firm believer in this. 1483 01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:15,240 Speaker 2: I always tell people like the work tells me what 1484 01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:18,200 Speaker 2: it needs to be. I don't look I don't ever 1485 01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:20,000 Speaker 2: look at this job. I don't look at anything that 1486 01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:22,719 Speaker 2: I do musically and ever go well, Okay, we're gonna 1487 01:19:22,720 --> 01:19:24,439 Speaker 2: do We're gonna go from point A to point B. 1488 01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:28,240 Speaker 2: That whole process is going to be. It's gonna go 1489 01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:30,080 Speaker 2: whichever way it's gonna go. And I don't know if 1490 01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:31,680 Speaker 2: you can call that whatever you want to call it. 1491 01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:34,360 Speaker 2: You can make that a spiritual thing and say, you know, 1492 01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:37,000 Speaker 2: the universe is going to inform what you have to do, 1493 01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:39,400 Speaker 2: and that's fine. But I think the only way you 1494 01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:41,439 Speaker 2: get there is you're just present with it and you 1495 01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:43,960 Speaker 2: just sit with it and say, okay, you know. And 1496 01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:46,719 Speaker 2: I think I've heard some a friend of mine who's 1497 01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:49,559 Speaker 2: a composer, he said once upon a time that he 1498 01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:53,080 Speaker 2: doesn't believe in writer's block, that it's really just you 1499 01:19:53,120 --> 01:19:57,320 Speaker 2: haven't figured out the way in yet, you know. And 1500 01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:00,639 Speaker 2: I've always I've always looked at it like it it's 1501 01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:02,720 Speaker 2: a bit like problem solving, you know, you're kind of 1502 01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:05,719 Speaker 2: going into it and saying okay. And that counts for everything. 1503 01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:10,080 Speaker 2: It counts for telling the story musically, it counts for 1504 01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:12,519 Speaker 2: maybe trying to figure out to fit something into something 1505 01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:14,519 Speaker 2: that it needs to do what it needs to do. 1506 01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:18,920 Speaker 2: It could be having conversations with people creatively that you're 1507 01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:21,360 Speaker 2: working with and collaborating with on the project, you know, 1508 01:20:21,439 --> 01:20:22,719 Speaker 2: speaking the same language. 1509 01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:25,240 Speaker 1: Both you and I had a moment like that in 1510 01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:27,720 Speaker 1: part two when we were trying to figure out a 1511 01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:31,599 Speaker 1: news sound for it. You had asked me tonally, how 1512 01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:34,960 Speaker 1: is this different? And I sat there and I was like, 1513 01:20:35,960 --> 01:20:40,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. And then we started talking about the 1514 01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:43,480 Speaker 1: differences in their cases and gnome and. 1515 01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:45,680 Speaker 4: The geography, like we got to the geography of. 1516 01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:49,400 Speaker 1: It, and then you mentioned, you know where Joseph's truck 1517 01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:52,080 Speaker 1: was found, you know, forty plus miles outside the city, 1518 01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:58,400 Speaker 1: this sort of different beast, this different unforgiving wilderness, and 1519 01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:02,120 Speaker 1: you know that is just we're just talking. 1520 01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:02,360 Speaker 5: You know. 1521 01:21:02,439 --> 01:21:05,599 Speaker 1: That's not a sound per se, but it's a it's 1522 01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:09,960 Speaker 1: a starting point thought. And then I wanted to pull 1523 01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:11,880 Speaker 1: that old silly trick out of the bag that we 1524 01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:14,720 Speaker 1: use where I'll just record a voice note of my 1525 01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:17,040 Speaker 1: voice and let's just mess with it and let's just 1526 01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:21,160 Speaker 1: see if it could become something. And so I saying 1527 01:21:21,479 --> 01:21:26,280 Speaker 1: follow me into the woods. Right, you did two things 1528 01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:29,360 Speaker 1: with that. You distorted it and it becomes this. It 1529 01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:33,519 Speaker 1: became this sort of choppy and then if you listen closely, 1530 01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:34,559 Speaker 1: you'll hear this. 1531 01:21:36,439 --> 01:21:37,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, it becomes a melody. 1532 01:21:38,600 --> 01:21:45,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it has a human like tone to it. 1533 01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:49,320 Speaker 1: Maybe it's subconscious, but it's it's almost like the the 1534 01:21:49,360 --> 01:21:54,960 Speaker 1: Turing test, right, it's too real because it is real. 1535 01:21:55,479 --> 01:21:57,080 Speaker 2: Well, but again it goes back to the one of 1536 01:21:57,120 --> 01:21:59,960 Speaker 2: one thing. It's like you when you know you know 1537 01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:02,840 Speaker 2: you know, and I think, and that comes back to 1538 01:22:03,040 --> 01:22:05,880 Speaker 2: trusting your gut, trusting your intuition and just sort of 1539 01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:09,040 Speaker 2: following the thing and just pull. 1540 01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:12,040 Speaker 1: The trigger, man, Because like we could sit here and 1541 01:22:12,600 --> 01:22:17,400 Speaker 1: nitpick one song that you made for one minute of 1542 01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:21,520 Speaker 1: a podcast for weeks, or we could just say, ah, 1543 01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:25,439 Speaker 1: let's move on. Maybe it's amazing, or maybe we just 1544 01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:29,080 Speaker 1: move that queue somewhere else. But the group of people 1545 01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:33,800 Speaker 1: who who are still debating that one que maybe you 1546 01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:36,200 Speaker 1: and I if we didn't do that or six weeks 1547 01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:43,400 Speaker 1: ahead and have have grown from that, built upon that. 1548 01:22:43,760 --> 01:22:47,760 Speaker 1: Whether it worked or not, it it informed the next 1549 01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:49,760 Speaker 1: thing we did, and then it informed the next thing 1550 01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:53,000 Speaker 1: we did. So we don't allow ourselves to be stuck 1551 01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:56,880 Speaker 1: because most things you can walk back, like I've never 1552 01:22:57,040 --> 01:22:59,320 Speaker 1: met like you do it the most extreme. I've never 1553 01:22:59,400 --> 01:23:01,400 Speaker 1: known anything, Like, I don't even do it this way. 1554 01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:05,680 Speaker 1: You will make a song and then you'll just fucking. 1555 01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:10,840 Speaker 4: Delete it, right, And I'll tell and get it though. 1556 01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:14,800 Speaker 1: I get it though, Like I get the you're like nope, 1557 01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:16,920 Speaker 1: Like you're not afraid to abandon it. 1558 01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:19,599 Speaker 4: You're not afraid to kill to kill your darlings, right. 1559 01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:22,040 Speaker 2: I think I think you have to have that mentality. 1560 01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:25,400 Speaker 2: I think that in the at the end of the day, 1561 01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:28,040 Speaker 2: you know it's gonna be the thing it needs to be. 1562 01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:30,479 Speaker 2: And if it's a deleted session, it's a deleted session. 1563 01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:33,320 Speaker 2: I think that you know it sounds extreme, but I 1564 01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:37,160 Speaker 2: I believe in that. I think that you know the 1565 01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:40,080 Speaker 2: music that we and not every show is like that. 1566 01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:43,560 Speaker 2: You know, we we speak a shorthand it and it works. 1567 01:23:44,240 --> 01:23:48,200 Speaker 2: I've worked on other shows where you know, I've been 1568 01:23:48,360 --> 01:23:51,840 Speaker 2: three episodes deep into it and the creative like lead 1569 01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:53,600 Speaker 2: on the show is like, hey, you know what, this 1570 01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:56,040 Speaker 2: is wrong. We're going in the wrong direction and now 1571 01:23:56,080 --> 01:23:58,960 Speaker 2: we got to scrap three episodes and start over. And 1572 01:23:59,240 --> 01:24:02,680 Speaker 2: you know you can, you can, you know, be a 1573 01:24:02,720 --> 01:24:04,400 Speaker 2: stick in the mud and be like, well, you know, 1574 01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:06,320 Speaker 2: I just already made all this music and I can't 1575 01:24:06,400 --> 01:24:09,280 Speaker 2: possibly do that, or you can just say okay and 1576 01:24:09,479 --> 01:24:12,639 Speaker 2: roll with it. And you know the show where that happened, 1577 01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:14,960 Speaker 2: I'm I'm super proud of the way that music turned 1578 01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:17,760 Speaker 2: out in the end because it not only was he 1579 01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:22,120 Speaker 2: right when he made that call, you know, I think 1580 01:24:22,240 --> 01:24:27,000 Speaker 2: the results that it yielded were super interesting. And you know, 1581 01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:30,439 Speaker 2: I don't know I look back on all that stuff. 1582 01:24:30,479 --> 01:24:30,800 Speaker 4: I don't. 1583 01:24:30,880 --> 01:24:33,160 Speaker 2: I it's weird. I don't really go back and listen 1584 01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:35,280 Speaker 2: to stuff. And when when the shows come out, say, 1585 01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:37,640 Speaker 2: I'm ashamed to say, like, I don't really listen to 1586 01:24:37,680 --> 01:24:39,599 Speaker 2: the shows because I've already worked on them, what I've 1587 01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:40,080 Speaker 2: been through. 1588 01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:42,280 Speaker 4: It I was just kidding, And I'll listen to it 1589 01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:44,840 Speaker 4: one time. You yeah, I. 1590 01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:46,719 Speaker 2: Will quality control kind of. 1591 01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:48,960 Speaker 1: No, But like the same way you delete something and 1592 01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:52,200 Speaker 1: it's gone forever, I'll listen to it once it's published 1593 01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:56,000 Speaker 1: and there's no takebacks. And so if I didn't like something, 1594 01:24:56,640 --> 01:25:00,519 Speaker 1: I remember it right, I'm like, I'm like, I'm not. 1595 01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:02,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not doing that next time, or like 1596 01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:04,639 Speaker 1: I liked that, I'm gonna do more of that. 1597 01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:07,479 Speaker 2: I don't go back and listen to records like I 1598 01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:12,360 Speaker 2: think that for me, I kind of look back on 1599 01:25:12,400 --> 01:25:15,320 Speaker 2: that stuff and I go, this served a purpose for 1600 01:25:15,439 --> 01:25:19,040 Speaker 2: the time that it. It was the thing, and then 1601 01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:20,960 Speaker 2: when it's done, I move on. And I think that, 1602 01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:25,280 Speaker 2: you know, with with these podcasts and the shows and 1603 01:25:25,320 --> 01:25:29,760 Speaker 2: all of the emotional currency that comes with that, it 1604 01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:31,920 Speaker 2: that's how I that's how I picked myself up and 1605 01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:34,439 Speaker 2: keep going because I look at it and I go, 1606 01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:36,720 Speaker 2: this is it was the thing that it needed to be, 1607 01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:39,960 Speaker 2: and we did it, and now there's something else and 1608 01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:42,360 Speaker 2: we'll tell that story, and I'm and I'm grateful to 1609 01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:43,439 Speaker 2: be able to tell that story. 1610 01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:46,960 Speaker 1: So you know, it's one more anecdote that I thought 1611 01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:52,800 Speaker 1: of that was funny. A summer ago we were in 1612 01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:56,240 Speaker 1: We were in the studio in Atlanta and I was 1613 01:25:56,280 --> 01:25:59,519 Speaker 1: telling you about a new podcast idea I had about 1614 01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:06,080 Speaker 1: UFO called high Strange, and I I asked you, point blank, 1615 01:26:07,040 --> 01:26:11,960 Speaker 1: is this a crazy idea? And the idea was I 1616 01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:16,760 Speaker 1: want to end every episode of this show with this 1617 01:26:16,840 --> 01:26:19,719 Speaker 1: Metro boomin gonna trap song. 1618 01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:28,600 Speaker 4: And I remember you were like, what and then or 1619 01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:31,920 Speaker 4: what was or what was your initial first knee jerk reaction. 1620 01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:37,439 Speaker 2: To be totally fair, And I think I may have been. 1621 01:26:38,200 --> 01:26:39,840 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say that because I don't think that. 1622 01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:44,000 Speaker 2: I don't think that I was the only one, but 1623 01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:47,599 Speaker 2: I definitely no. I feel like I was on board 1624 01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:48,759 Speaker 2: because I thought. 1625 01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:50,679 Speaker 4: You you got on board quickly. 1626 01:26:50,920 --> 01:26:55,599 Speaker 1: But I remember I remember initially because it sounds dumb 1627 01:26:55,960 --> 01:26:57,960 Speaker 1: at first, like when I said it out loud, it 1628 01:26:58,040 --> 01:27:02,559 Speaker 1: sounded silly, But then you know that you quickly went 1629 01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:05,040 Speaker 1: fuck it, let's try it. And so we threw in 1630 01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:11,320 Speaker 1: the instrumental and then we tried really hard to transition 1631 01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:15,920 Speaker 1: this Travis Walton interview and how it ended and then 1632 01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:20,920 Speaker 1: have it swell and organically ended up boom, And then 1633 01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:24,160 Speaker 1: it honestly took all of thirty minutes, and we both 1634 01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:25,719 Speaker 1: looked at each other and we. 1635 01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:26,840 Speaker 2: Were like, this is it. 1636 01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:29,559 Speaker 4: This is dope, right. 1637 01:27:30,080 --> 01:27:34,439 Speaker 2: Well, I think with that whole thing I mean was 1638 01:27:34,479 --> 01:27:36,720 Speaker 2: what was really cool about that experience was listening to 1639 01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:40,400 Speaker 2: Travis Walton, whose voice is incredible. I mean, it's like sandpaper, 1640 01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:44,840 Speaker 2: it's so gritty and gravelly. Yeah, and he's telling you 1641 01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:48,080 Speaker 2: about how he's abducted and he's relaying this story and 1642 01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:49,520 Speaker 2: it's totally insane. 1643 01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:50,840 Speaker 4: It's terrifying. 1644 01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:55,120 Speaker 2: And I remember, like before we even did that, before 1645 01:27:55,280 --> 01:27:57,519 Speaker 2: we had tape on that show, I think you had 1646 01:27:57,560 --> 01:27:59,679 Speaker 2: told me about it. I thought, if it's about UFOs, 1647 01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:02,439 Speaker 2: we should get a theremon, and you were like, and 1648 01:28:02,479 --> 01:28:04,600 Speaker 2: I remember like we talked about it and then you 1649 01:28:04,640 --> 01:28:06,920 Speaker 2: were like, you sent me like a shipping notification that 1650 01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:09,439 Speaker 2: a theremon was on its way to me. And so 1651 01:28:10,120 --> 01:28:11,680 Speaker 2: I remember it showed up and I set it all 1652 01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:13,880 Speaker 2: up and I realized right away that I can't play 1653 01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:16,920 Speaker 2: a theremon. It's incredibly hard to play. 1654 01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:19,479 Speaker 4: It's plun to play with, but it's fun. 1655 01:28:19,360 --> 01:28:23,360 Speaker 2: To play with, but man, it's really hard. But when 1656 01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:24,880 Speaker 2: we were in the studio in Atlanta, like what I 1657 01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:27,400 Speaker 2: realized is if you take a theremon and you pit, 1658 01:28:27,720 --> 01:28:30,559 Speaker 2: you take the pitch all the way down right, as 1659 01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:33,639 Speaker 2: so everybody attributes Theramis to being like this high pitched 1660 01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:37,200 Speaker 2: like who kind of like you know UFO sound. If 1661 01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:40,639 Speaker 2: you take the pitch super low, it actually has this 1662 01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:45,720 Speaker 2: like really weird, sort of gritty textural quality. But it's 1663 01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:48,360 Speaker 2: also because the pitch is sort of uneven and uneasy 1664 01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:52,360 Speaker 2: because it's hard to play this like yeah, you get 1665 01:28:52,360 --> 01:28:56,040 Speaker 2: this really weird sort of thing. And what's great is 1666 01:28:56,040 --> 01:29:00,600 Speaker 2: there's sounds during Walton talking about that that I'm like, 1667 01:29:01,720 --> 01:29:03,200 Speaker 2: I'm still to this day, I'm like, I don't know 1668 01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:06,960 Speaker 2: how I got those sounds, but they're great. They sound great, 1669 01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:10,120 Speaker 2: and they sound so alien and weird. But those, I mean, 1670 01:29:10,160 --> 01:29:13,719 Speaker 2: those sounds are all from the theremon And it's great 1671 01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:16,960 Speaker 2: because the whole time working on that show, the whole 1672 01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:23,839 Speaker 2: trajectory of that project, I never ever once thought anything 1673 01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:27,679 Speaker 2: other than this is pain making the show that Pain 1674 01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:31,280 Speaker 2: was destined to make, because it's the most you show. 1675 01:29:31,479 --> 01:29:35,679 Speaker 2: In my mind, it's you pulling the thread and going 1676 01:29:35,720 --> 01:29:38,160 Speaker 2: I'm curious about this and just following it. And so 1677 01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:40,320 Speaker 2: when you came in, you said, what do you think 1678 01:29:40,320 --> 01:29:42,280 Speaker 2: about this metro Boomin song? Maybe in the beginning, I 1679 01:29:42,320 --> 01:29:46,280 Speaker 2: was like, Okay, that's weird, but immediately I was like, 1680 01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:49,120 Speaker 2: that's you. That's the most you thing, and this is 1681 01:29:49,160 --> 01:29:51,240 Speaker 2: the most you show. So yeah, of course it should 1682 01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:52,160 Speaker 2: end this way, you know. 1683 01:29:52,640 --> 01:29:55,840 Speaker 1: And I also have this weird like juxtaposition right right, 1684 01:29:56,040 --> 01:30:01,720 Speaker 1: you go from forty minutes of Travis Walton recounting a 1685 01:30:01,880 --> 01:30:05,200 Speaker 1: terrifying story, whether you believe him or not, that's a 1686 01:30:05,280 --> 01:30:09,200 Speaker 1: terrifying dream too, And it's dark and it's intense, and 1687 01:30:09,200 --> 01:30:12,280 Speaker 1: then it goes to this bing in it and it's 1688 01:30:12,320 --> 01:30:17,719 Speaker 1: almost like it's out of place. It almost it almost 1689 01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:20,640 Speaker 1: makes fun of itself or it takes the seriousness, like 1690 01:30:20,680 --> 01:30:23,759 Speaker 1: the seriousness away, and I totally I wanted to play 1691 01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:29,160 Speaker 1: into that as a reminder of, hey, we can look 1692 01:30:29,160 --> 01:30:31,800 Speaker 1: at this from different angles. If we can somehow pull 1693 01:30:31,960 --> 01:30:36,439 Speaker 1: off going from scary intense to this song and it 1694 01:30:36,479 --> 01:30:40,320 Speaker 1: feel like a a what a good listening experience it 1695 01:30:40,479 --> 01:30:41,559 Speaker 1: then it becomes exciting. 1696 01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:44,320 Speaker 2: It's kind of at odds with what I was talking 1697 01:30:44,360 --> 01:30:46,120 Speaker 2: about before. It's like, musically, you don't want to do 1698 01:30:46,240 --> 01:30:48,320 Speaker 2: things that take away, right, You don't want to have 1699 01:30:48,360 --> 01:30:50,320 Speaker 2: these panning effects that people are trying to listen to 1700 01:30:50,360 --> 01:30:54,559 Speaker 2: Dialogue and like, well I can't. It's confusing, and it's 1701 01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:56,240 Speaker 2: sort of the it's like a one to eighty from 1702 01:30:56,320 --> 01:30:59,200 Speaker 2: that because when that moment happens, it kind of smacks 1703 01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:00,840 Speaker 2: you in the face a little bit. You're like, oh, 1704 01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:03,880 Speaker 2: wait a minute. But also like there's no shows. I 1705 01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:07,080 Speaker 2: remember when you first hired me for Atlanta Monster going 1706 01:31:07,520 --> 01:31:11,080 Speaker 2: online and being like podcast soundtracks and trying to find that, 1707 01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:12,439 Speaker 2: and there weren't. 1708 01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:14,280 Speaker 4: There weren't turns out, there weren't none. 1709 01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:16,960 Speaker 2: There was a there was like a SoundCloud playlist by 1710 01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:20,120 Speaker 2: the guys that made Cereal and they had cues from 1711 01:31:20,160 --> 01:31:22,519 Speaker 2: Cereal and a SoundCloud playlist, and I remember. 1712 01:31:22,360 --> 01:31:25,200 Speaker 1: They were great, but they were they were the Cereal sounds. 1713 01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:28,400 Speaker 1: They were just MPR sounds, right, and we were going 1714 01:31:28,479 --> 01:31:31,640 Speaker 1: cinematic versus you know, it's the journalistic. 1715 01:31:32,479 --> 01:31:36,280 Speaker 2: It was immediately like obvious to me that this was 1716 01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:42,200 Speaker 2: a very it was uncharted territory. And to me all 1717 01:31:42,280 --> 01:31:45,080 Speaker 2: these years later when you came and said metro booming, 1718 01:31:46,080 --> 01:31:49,280 Speaker 2: it was like, oh, this is this is that you know, 1719 01:31:49,400 --> 01:31:52,280 Speaker 2: this is do the do the thing that you feel 1720 01:31:52,320 --> 01:31:54,920 Speaker 2: like is the thing to do. Don't worry about you know, 1721 01:31:55,240 --> 01:31:57,439 Speaker 2: don't worry about what the market says, or what the 1722 01:31:57,560 --> 01:32:00,600 Speaker 2: industry is doing, just do do the thing. And it 1723 01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:04,120 Speaker 2: was a wild swing. But I think it absolutely worked. 1724 01:32:04,200 --> 01:32:06,559 Speaker 2: And it's like, and why would you why would that 1725 01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:08,760 Speaker 2: not be our mantra? You know, you want that to 1726 01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:11,160 Speaker 2: be the way to do it. You don't want to 1727 01:32:11,560 --> 01:32:13,720 Speaker 2: don't do the safe thing, do the scary thing, you know. 1728 01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:15,599 Speaker 2: And I don't think tenderfootg got to where it is 1729 01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:19,400 Speaker 2: by doing the safe thing. I think, you know, we 1730 01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:21,640 Speaker 2: try to do something that's a little bit outside of 1731 01:32:21,640 --> 01:32:23,840 Speaker 2: the box. And that definitely was. It was super weird. 1732 01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:27,720 Speaker 2: But I love that show because that show tells a 1733 01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:32,880 Speaker 2: bunch of interesting stories, treats a bunch of interesting you know, topics, 1734 01:32:33,320 --> 01:32:36,479 Speaker 2: and it's all wrapped up through this prism of you 1735 01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:39,360 Speaker 2: and who you are. And I don't think people necessarily 1736 01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:41,600 Speaker 2: got that through something like up and vanished, you know. 1737 01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:43,800 Speaker 2: I think that this is an opportunity for you to 1738 01:32:43,800 --> 01:32:45,880 Speaker 2: be like, no, no, this is like what I'm this 1739 01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:46,599 Speaker 2: is what I'm about. 1740 01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:50,320 Speaker 1: And I like that we're all multifaceted people, right right right, yeah. 1741 01:32:50,400 --> 01:32:53,040 Speaker 1: I mean the first podcast we ever made together, you 1742 01:32:53,120 --> 01:32:58,639 Speaker 1: scored hundreds of songs. We dove into this really dark 1743 01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:00,879 Speaker 1: Synthy Vibe in Atlanta. 1744 01:33:00,920 --> 01:33:04,880 Speaker 4: Monster. The podcast itself was a huge success. 1745 01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:08,200 Speaker 1: This was a new experience for both of us, making 1746 01:33:08,280 --> 01:33:11,400 Speaker 1: original music with someone we hadn't We hadn't even met 1747 01:33:11,439 --> 01:33:14,960 Speaker 1: in person yet. A few months after the podcast came out, 1748 01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:20,920 Speaker 1: there was a scathing article about the show, most mostly 1749 01:33:20,960 --> 01:33:25,559 Speaker 1: about me and how stupid they thought I was. But 1750 01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:29,360 Speaker 1: there was a line in there about the music. Right, 1751 01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:31,240 Speaker 1: do you remember what it was? 1752 01:33:33,680 --> 01:33:33,800 Speaker 4: Oh? 1753 01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:35,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll never forget it. 1754 01:33:35,080 --> 01:33:35,400 Speaker 4: I got it. 1755 01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:37,479 Speaker 2: I always say, like I got to mention in the 1756 01:33:37,520 --> 01:33:40,640 Speaker 2: New Yorker, which is pretty awesome. But they referred to 1757 01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:44,040 Speaker 2: my music as synthe noir plink Plink, which was which 1758 01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:46,080 Speaker 2: was in my social media handles when I still had 1759 01:33:46,120 --> 01:33:49,559 Speaker 2: social media. But I think that, like, you know, I 1760 01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:52,280 Speaker 2: think that's great. I'm into that, Like I think, damn right, 1761 01:33:52,360 --> 01:33:56,160 Speaker 2: it is no But I think I think that you 1762 01:33:56,200 --> 01:33:59,240 Speaker 2: know you Again, it goes back to the thing like 1763 01:33:59,280 --> 01:34:02,640 Speaker 2: if I if if you go through and I know 1764 01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:04,120 Speaker 2: you're the same way. But it's like if if you 1765 01:34:04,200 --> 01:34:08,280 Speaker 2: go through everything waiting for somebody to dictate to you, 1766 01:34:08,400 --> 01:34:12,960 Speaker 2: like whether that thing is good or bad. First of all, 1767 01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:15,759 Speaker 2: you can't hope to be true with what you're saying 1768 01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:19,200 Speaker 2: right with what you're trying to do, the being genuine 1769 01:34:19,200 --> 01:34:21,160 Speaker 2: about something, And I don't I don't think a show 1770 01:34:21,200 --> 01:34:25,040 Speaker 2: like High Strange gets made if you're not trying to 1771 01:34:25,240 --> 01:34:29,920 Speaker 2: tell the truth as it pertains to you and who 1772 01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:31,200 Speaker 2: you are, right. 1773 01:34:31,040 --> 01:34:32,680 Speaker 1: Yes, I just hope that you get it the way 1774 01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:35,240 Speaker 1: that I got it, or experienced it the way that 1775 01:34:35,360 --> 01:34:39,120 Speaker 1: I wanted you, like, wanted you to experience it the 1776 01:34:39,160 --> 01:34:41,479 Speaker 1: way that that I was experiencing it while making it 1777 01:34:41,760 --> 01:34:45,599 Speaker 1: right like to me. That's the message. I don't want 1778 01:34:45,640 --> 01:34:48,040 Speaker 1: you to like it or like me. I want you 1779 01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:50,719 Speaker 1: to have the same experience that I had. 1780 01:34:51,040 --> 01:34:54,280 Speaker 2: Right, I mean one hundred percent. I think that you know, 1781 01:34:54,479 --> 01:34:58,160 Speaker 2: if you if you listen to all that dialogue, you know, 1782 01:34:58,240 --> 01:35:00,640 Speaker 2: you you end up like you know, like Brian, you 1783 01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:03,360 Speaker 2: know from the Beach Boys. You know, you release all 1784 01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:05,960 Speaker 2: your records in mono and you fill your living room 1785 01:35:05,960 --> 01:35:08,439 Speaker 2: with sand, you know, because you're because you go crazy, 1786 01:35:08,600 --> 01:35:13,800 Speaker 2: because you're you're just obsessed with how people perceive it 1787 01:35:14,000 --> 01:35:17,439 Speaker 2: or you know whatever. And I don't know. I'm like 1788 01:35:17,479 --> 01:35:19,320 Speaker 2: I said, I'm I'm just happy to be here. I'm 1789 01:35:19,360 --> 01:35:22,080 Speaker 2: happy to make music. And you know, I get up 1790 01:35:22,080 --> 01:35:24,880 Speaker 2: in the morning and I make coffee and I come 1791 01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:27,040 Speaker 2: in here and I just make stuff and I you know, 1792 01:35:27,200 --> 01:35:30,000 Speaker 2: that's a pretty cool space to be in. I'm grateful 1793 01:35:30,000 --> 01:35:32,320 Speaker 2: to be in it, and I'm grateful that we get to, 1794 01:35:32,360 --> 01:35:34,840 Speaker 2: you know, tell stories and and tell stories the way 1795 01:35:34,840 --> 01:35:35,240 Speaker 2: we want to. 1796 01:35:35,280 --> 01:35:38,160 Speaker 1: I guess so you got a lot more synth, more 1797 01:35:38,360 --> 01:35:39,800 Speaker 1: plink plink left in you, right. 1798 01:35:39,840 --> 01:35:42,559 Speaker 2: I'm just plink plinking away, and I appreciate. 1799 01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:44,919 Speaker 1: I mean, you, you've taught me so much as a creator. 1800 01:35:45,040 --> 01:35:47,400 Speaker 1: I feel like we've both been able to learn from 1801 01:35:47,400 --> 01:35:51,080 Speaker 1: each other and challenge each other. And you know, you 1802 01:35:51,240 --> 01:35:54,360 Speaker 1: told me one time that every time you open your 1803 01:35:54,439 --> 01:35:59,400 Speaker 1: MacBook and you're making a new song for a podcast, 1804 01:35:59,680 --> 01:36:01,639 Speaker 1: there's a brief moment where it feels like you're learning 1805 01:36:01,680 --> 01:36:03,880 Speaker 1: how to ride a bike again, right, And I was like, 1806 01:36:04,000 --> 01:36:07,599 Speaker 1: holy shit, that resonates so well with me. I've made 1807 01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:12,040 Speaker 1: hundreds of episodes. Every single time I go, I think 1808 01:36:12,080 --> 01:36:14,400 Speaker 1: I forgot how to do this right, and then we 1809 01:36:14,560 --> 01:36:17,680 Speaker 1: just pushed through it. And I think that you know, 1810 01:36:18,479 --> 01:36:20,800 Speaker 1: to me, that's what's been special about working with you 1811 01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:24,960 Speaker 1: is that we've been able to get better at what 1812 01:36:25,000 --> 01:36:28,679 Speaker 1: we do and and try new things and not feel 1813 01:36:28,720 --> 01:36:31,320 Speaker 1: stuck and creatively, it's kind of all you could ever 1814 01:36:31,400 --> 01:36:35,839 Speaker 1: ask for to do what you're passionate about for a living, 1815 01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:40,639 Speaker 1: have an outlet that you feel doesn't keep you stuck, 1816 01:36:41,320 --> 01:36:46,360 Speaker 1: and the adventure is forever if you lean into it, 1817 01:36:47,280 --> 01:36:51,160 Speaker 1: lean into synthe more plink plink versus being scared by it. 1818 01:36:51,479 --> 01:36:52,200 Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying. 1819 01:36:52,479 --> 01:36:54,519 Speaker 2: I can't imagine what the alternative is, you know. I 1820 01:36:54,600 --> 01:36:57,960 Speaker 2: just it's you, just know, you just you just keep 1821 01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:00,320 Speaker 2: pulling the thread. I mean, that's if there's anything to it, 1822 01:37:00,320 --> 01:37:03,400 Speaker 2: it's that it's you just you trust it, trust your 1823 01:37:03,400 --> 01:37:06,280 Speaker 2: gut and just go with it. And yeah, I mean 1824 01:37:07,080 --> 01:37:11,120 Speaker 2: it's it hasn't let us down yet, So no, let's 1825 01:37:11,200 --> 01:37:11,599 Speaker 2: keep going. 1826 01:37:12,120 --> 01:37:13,040 Speaker 4: What's been fun? Man? 1827 01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:16,720 Speaker 1: I need to come to Nashville soon. Yeah, I'll let 1828 01:37:16,720 --> 01:37:18,920 Speaker 1: you know if I'm in the area. Yeah it's been 1829 01:37:18,960 --> 01:37:22,479 Speaker 1: a minute, all right, but yeah, I'll talk to you sooner, brother, 1830 01:37:22,680 --> 01:37:23,040 Speaker 1: all right. 1831 01:37:23,200 --> 01:37:23,519 Speaker 2: Peace. 1832 01:37:26,640 --> 01:37:29,400 Speaker 5: Talking to Death is a production of Tenderfoot TV and 1833 01:37:29,479 --> 01:37:34,280 Speaker 5: iHeart Podcasts, created and hosted by Payne Lindsay. For Tenderfoot TV, 1834 01:37:34,560 --> 01:37:38,760 Speaker 5: executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co Executive 1835 01:37:38,760 --> 01:37:43,080 Speaker 5: producer is Mike Rudey for iHeart Podcasts. Executive producers are 1836 01:37:43,160 --> 01:37:46,960 Speaker 5: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, with original music by Makeup 1837 01:37:47,000 --> 01:37:51,120 Speaker 5: and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington, 1838 01:37:51,360 --> 01:37:55,920 Speaker 5: Sean Nurney, Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wilde for Coohedo. Production 1839 01:37:56,080 --> 01:38:00,240 Speaker 5: support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young, Mix 1840 01:38:00,400 --> 01:38:04,040 Speaker 5: and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover 1841 01:38:04,200 --> 01:38:07,800 Speaker 5: art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website 1842 01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:15,360 Speaker 5: Talking todeathpodcast dot com. 1843 01:38:15,439 --> 01:38:17,719 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death. 1844 01:38:18,160 --> 01:38:21,559 Speaker 1: This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you 1845 01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:25,080 Speaker 1: want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe 1846 01:38:25,120 --> 01:38:29,320 Speaker 1: to tenderfoot plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus 1847 01:38:29,439 --> 01:38:33,240 Speaker 1: dot com