1 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: What do you do when life doesn't go according to 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: with a guest to talk about the times they were 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: Some stories are funny, others are cutwrenching, but all are 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: unapologetically human and remind us that every success and every 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice answers 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: one question, Now, what what did that? Strong? Wells, I'm 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: not getting off the swing, little girl dream for herself. 13 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, let's see. Well when I I mean, it's 14 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: given my history, it is pretty funny that for a 15 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: little while, when I was very young, I had decided 16 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: that I wanted to grow up and be president. So well, 17 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: you know, okay, oh you know they got into the 18 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: Oval office. Yeah. I always say that, wrong way, wrong track. 19 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: My guest today doesn't need an introduction, but rather a reintroduction, 20 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: one that I feel is long overdue. Monica Lewinsky is 21 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: a producer, an activist, a public speaker and a contributing 22 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: editor to Vanity Fair. In the twenty five years since 23 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: her relationship with former President Bill Clinton made her both 24 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: a household name and patient zero for online harassment, she's 25 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: become an expert on the effects of cyberbullying, earning a 26 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: master's degree in social psychology from the London School of 27 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: Economics and Political Science. Her now viral ted talk on 28 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: the matter has racked up more than twenty one million views. 29 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: And that was just the beginning Monica's now what moment. 30 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: It's clear, but her resilience, her drive, and her refusal 31 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: to let the world make her bitter, that story has 32 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: yet to be told. I so admire her. She's one 33 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: of the bravest people I know, and I am honored 34 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: that she made a point to join me. So here 35 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: is Monica Lewinsky. First of all, Monica Lewinsky, I just 36 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: want to say hi, friend, and thank you so much 37 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me Brook, 38 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: it's so sweet, And congratulations on the documentary. Thank you. Yes, 39 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: I think that you are going to really appreciate it 40 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: and identify with it in lots of different little ways. 41 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: But just to kind of you jump in a little 42 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: what are you working on right now? So for the 43 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: last several years I have been focusing on and trying 44 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: to build a career in producing god producing television. I 45 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: saw the documentary fifteen Minutes of Shame. I thought it 46 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: was beautifully done. Oh thank you. Yeah. Max Joseph who 47 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: was the director, did a really fantastic job and the 48 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: whole team. We did it during the pandemic, which in 49 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: a way was a blessing to have work. You know, 50 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 1: it's something to focus on, but was certainly challenging to 51 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: film a documentary. Well yeah, to have access to the 52 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: to what you need to put in the documentary, right. 53 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: But you know what I thought was what really stuck 54 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: out for me is, you know, people think that your 55 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: experiences were just so one of a kind and sort 56 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: of isolated, and what you've done with a documentary is 57 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: really bring to light the power of public shame and 58 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: the vitriol and how it happens all the time, cyberbullying, 59 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: the press, all of the time, all around us. In 60 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: the incidences were for these different people in your story 61 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:21,559 Speaker 1: included are so varied, and that's something that I guess 62 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: I never really thought about it that way. Well, I 63 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: think that it's you know, I mean I've seen certainly 64 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: in the last twenty five years. I can't believe it's 65 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: been that long, but in the twenty five years, since 66 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, I have seen this sort of online 67 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: world virgin in myriad ways. Right, So there was we 68 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: started to have different kinds of aol chat and then 69 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: my Space and blogging, and eventually, you know, we got 70 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: to this sort of explosion of social media. And I 71 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: think that with social media so many people having voices 72 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: really changed our cultural landscape that way. And you know, 73 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: I'm not the only person who's seen this. I mean, 74 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: I think many people have commented that we've just started 75 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: to see this kind of behavior that used to only 76 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: be lobbed at at public figures now start to be 77 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: lobbed at private people as well. And with fifteen minutes 78 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: of shame, I think what we really wanted to do. 79 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: I mean, it's only ninety minutes. So it really was 80 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: kind of this introductory examination of asking these questions of 81 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: like how did we you know, how did we get 82 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: to where we are today with public shaming and where 83 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: the fuck are we going? I mean, and you talk 84 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: about it public shaming has been part of the world 85 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: and an existence at the beginning of humanity, exactly exactly. 86 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: And I you know, something that we discovered while we 87 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: were working on the film that was really fascinating to 88 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: me was kind of this turning point that happened around 89 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: from public shaming having been kind of a social tool 90 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: in communities, and then when the printing press came along, 91 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: it now all of a sudden went out of the 92 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: public square sort of person to person or gossip, and 93 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: it's now on the printed page, and it now started 94 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: to become a commodity. You know. Throw Rupert Murdoch in there, 95 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: and the tabloid culture, and you really start to see 96 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: the roots of how we got to where we are 97 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: today and how indelible it is and how forever it is. 98 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: Yeah it is, And I think, you know, it's like, um, 99 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: I sometimes use this analogy that I think about, you know, 100 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: we all we all rubber neck when we see a 101 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: car accident on the freeway, you know, but how many 102 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: of us? Certainly not me? But you know, does anybody 103 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: ever five minutes or five hours or five days think, oh, 104 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: I wonder how that person is? We don't you know? 105 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: It sort of comes in. We were we're going to 106 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: see blood, you know, yeah, exactly. Well, it really resonated 107 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: with me because when I was a kid, I was 108 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: tabloid fodder, I mean all the time, and it was 109 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: about my sexuality, and it was about and I was 110 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: portrayed a certain way, and everybody had an opinion. It 111 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: wasn't on social media. I don't. I don't think I 112 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: would have survived if the social media had existed. My 113 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: mother kept it all from me, and I didn't read 114 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: all of it until much much later, because I just 115 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: found all the boxes. And I do identify with you 116 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: in that way. And you hit on the idea. In 117 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: your documentary fifteen Minutes of Shame. You open with this line. 118 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: Imagine waking up one morning with the whole world suddenly 119 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: knowing your name and talking about you. Not because you 120 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: cured a disease or saved your neighbor's house from burning down. 121 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: Everyone knows who you are, because your secret, your mistake 122 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: has now been made public. That is so vulnerable and honest, 123 00:07:54,160 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: and I just have such empty for you, and I'm 124 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: just so sorry that it that it had to happen 125 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: that way for you. Well, I mean, you were just 126 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: talking about your experiences, and you were even younger, much 127 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: younger than I was. I mean, it was that the 128 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: technology was different in the world. And it also I'm 129 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: sure a lot of the attention you were getting was positive. 130 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: I know there might have you were mentioning some of 131 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: the negative. So there was that difference. I don't think 132 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: I had a positive No one liked me. But I mean, 133 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: you admitted you made a mistake or you said you 134 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: did right, but then the level of abuse that was 135 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: thrown at you, it's unfathomable. It wasn't I think too, 136 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: what you know. One aspect that became very interesting to me, 137 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: and I think we tried to thread into the doc 138 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: in the personal stories, was that these kinds of incidents 139 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: aren't just what happens in the moment. The trauma and 140 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: the shame lives with you for such a long time, 141 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 1: and in my instance, and actually in sort of all 142 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: of these the public shamings that happen online, no matter 143 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: the degree it impacts your life, you know, And I didn't. 144 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: I didn't actually see the full effect until probably two thousand, 145 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: let's see two thousand and seven and two thousand and eight, 146 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: when I had gone to graduate school. I tried to, 147 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: you know, sort of build this new scaffolding of who 148 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: I was as a person coming into adulthood. And I 149 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: couldn't get a job. And that was when I realized like, oh, 150 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: this is still here, and this is has imprinted on 151 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: my life in a way. And that's actually when I 152 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: came into some anger. It took me that long to 153 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: come into any anger too. I mean I think that 154 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: there's it's like dealing with death or you know, the 155 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: five stages of grief. And but you talk so eloquently 156 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: about shame and shame coming off in layers. Can you 157 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that to me, tell me 158 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: how you do it? Yes. Let me credit my therapist, 159 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: who's a trauma psychiatrist. So, I mean, she's really really 160 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: helped me to see in different times of times that 161 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: I've come into sessions and gone, well, I think I'm 162 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: depressed again, you know, And when we unpack that and 163 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: really examine it, it's usually grief, and that grief is 164 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: usually connected to some part of a loss for me 165 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: that usually tacks back to ninety eight in some way, 166 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, And so I think that there, I think 167 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: what happens is is it's this like it's this this 168 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: is like such a bad metaphor, but it's sort of 169 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: like peeling an onion, except if you imagine that in 170 00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: between the layers that you're peeling, you're healing and your chaining. 171 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: So it's with more awareness, you know, it's with growth 172 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 1: and more awareness that I think you kind of come 173 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: to that next stage almost like in a video game. 174 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: You know, you've like passed that layer and now, oh, 175 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: here's this other grief or shame aspect that you're looking at. 176 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: Do you find forgiveness for yourself in doing that? I 177 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: try really hard. I need a lot of reminders for that, 178 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: I think, like I try to work on it from 179 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: many different angles, you know. So one thing I started 180 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: doing a couple of years ago is here I can 181 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: show you what. I have photos of me as a 182 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: kid all over my health, like different photos, and I've 183 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: sort of put them there to remind myself to like 184 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: send love to that in her child, that little girl, 185 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: remind her she's safe today. So that's one way I 186 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: do it. Another is, you know, a mantra my therapist 187 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: gave me of like, rather than beat myself up trying 188 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: to just like yeah, that's what I do sometimes when 189 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: I get anxious. Sometimes when I'm scared, I blah blah 190 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: blah blah blah, whatever the thing is that I don't 191 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: want to be doing. We're talking about the concept of shame, 192 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 1: and one thing that really strikes me about our conversation, 193 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: which I've also heard you speak about before, is that, 194 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: for you, and for many young women, myself being one 195 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: of them, your sense of shaming yourself started at a 196 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: really young age. Oh yeah, a thousand percent. I mean 197 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: I think that it was you know, I think that 198 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: there there aspects like another I'm just trying to think 199 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: of how to phrase this because it sort of mirrors 200 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 1: what we were just talking about with the layers of 201 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: shame in a way, is that there's also layers of 202 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: awareness that comes. So for me, it wasn't until my 203 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: life started changing in twenty fourteen and people started to 204 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: see me for more of my true self. I was 205 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: able to earn an income and support myself in my forties. 206 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: As that started to happen, I was able to kind 207 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: of say certain other issues that had always been lurking of, 208 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: you know, trauma, different traumas from before ninety eight, you know, 209 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: from my younger years in high school. I also was 210 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: raised in La so being a little chubby Jewish girl 211 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: was like, I mean, not the Jewish part, but the 212 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, sort of the didn't fit in here, you know. So, 213 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: I mean I remember I went on my first diet, 214 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: I think when I was maybe eleven, maybe you know, 215 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: and I just you know, and now now I think 216 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: it's I'm sure you've experienced it too, because you also, 217 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: you know, you've always been looked at for your beauty 218 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: and which you have both inside and out. Anybody who 219 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: spends five minutes with you knows that, ah, we're in 220 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: the club, we'll get jackets. So but so now you're 221 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: eleven years old, do you do that? Do you do this? 222 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: Self imposed? Again? What were you like as a little girl, Like, yes, 223 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: that was it was self imposed. But I think it's 224 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: probably what I absorbed, um from the culture, what I 225 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: absorbed from school, I you know, but as a kid, 226 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: I mean, like my mom always says that she just 227 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: I was very strong willed and that I knew like, 228 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: I mean, both of my parents sort of still tease 229 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: me that, you know. One of the first sentences I 230 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: ever said before I was two was like, hands on 231 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: my hips, you are not the boss of me, you know, 232 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: so um, and I think that's that's that's still with me. 233 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: But um my, you know, my mom will joke and say, 234 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: I think she feels like she was just never strong 235 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: enough to be the parent to discipline me or to 236 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, to shape the kind of strong, strong willed 237 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: kid that I was. What did that that strong willed 238 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: I'm not getting off the swing, little girl um dream 239 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: for herself. Oh gosh, um let's see. Well when I mean, 240 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's given my history. It is pretty 241 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: funny that for a little while when I was very young, 242 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: I m had decided that I wanted to grow up 243 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: and be president. So that's you know, okay, well you 244 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: got there. You know, you can always say that it's 245 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: like wrong way, wrong track, Uh, definitely not the right way. 246 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: And I went through different um stages of I think 247 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: it was always caring about people. My dad is a 248 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: doctor and my mom was a social worker for a while, 249 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: and so I sort of grew up in this helping environment. Um. 250 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: That was just kind of an undercurrent in my family 251 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: of like, you help people. Um, And so I think 252 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: that there that that was always interesting to me and 253 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: so it wasn't it wasn't really a surprise when ultimately 254 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: I was interested in psychology also because I was fucked 255 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: up so well you talked about I mean trauma. My god, 256 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: you definitely went through a drauma. So did you did 257 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: you think you wanted to be a therapist or initially 258 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: actually so from high school. I did a lot of 259 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: costume design in high school, and so I actually was 260 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: looking into that as a career. But I think my 261 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: parents sort of, you know, like many parents wanted, you know, okay, 262 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: choose choose a major. That's sort of something where you 263 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: could go get a job tomorrow if you had to. 264 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: But with psychology, I didn't feel I'd be able to 265 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: learn the skills to leave work at home, and so 266 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: I wasn't interested in becoming a therapist. I was very 267 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: interested in forensic psychology. So I was fascinated by that 268 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: intersection of law and psychology in everything from jury selection 269 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: to you know, the mind of a criminal. Like my 270 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: dream job was sort of working at the FBI. So 271 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: again and again, my alliance, like the Monica the story, 272 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: you know, one bad path after the other, one crooked path, 273 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: you know, or but what do you think you were 274 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: trying to figure out about yourself in that those twenties, 275 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: you know, looking for I think that professionally I was. 276 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: I was really interested and I've always been interested in 277 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: kind of solving puzzles and problems. You know, understanding the 278 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: cause of something is really interesting to me. And the 279 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: idea that when you unlock that key and understand something, 280 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: you can change behavior individually collectively. Personally, I think I 281 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: was I was looking for validation. I think I felt 282 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: like I was this very kind of split person, you know, 283 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,959 Speaker 1: one who was young and naive and who was looking 284 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: for adoration and validation that I was lovable. And I 285 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: think then there was this other part of me that was, 286 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: you know, exploring who who Who was I? And that 287 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: was a lot of when I moved to Portland, Oregon, 288 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: of like you try on different identities. You know, nowadays 289 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: people kids do that as a teenager on social media, 290 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: but for me that happened, you know, in my late 291 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: teens in early twenties. Well, and then you get validation 292 00:18:53,600 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: from the most important person in the world practically, and 293 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: that's can I say, I don't know if I'm going 294 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: to get in trouble for this, but I get it. 295 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: I get that. I mean, in reading the Andrew Morton 296 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: book that you did collaborate with, I was struck by 297 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: sort of the empathy and the understanding sexuality. Wise, there's 298 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: a quote and you say, I don't see sexuality as 299 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: being something to hide away in the dark or be 300 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: ashamed of. I think our sexuality is something to be honored, 301 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: cherished and valued. That is such a fascinating piece of you. 302 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: How do you think those two things happened in your psyche? 303 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: Was it? Do you think a reaction to the shame 304 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: that you had about your weight and the struggle was 305 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: a defiance Those two things coexisting really is fascinating to me. Yeah, 306 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: it's I mean it's interesting to me too. Where it 307 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: also takes on a whole other layer, is I um, 308 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: I had had an experience when I was fourteen that 309 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: I didn't even recognize as being an unwanted sexual experience 310 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: until I was in my forties. So I look back 311 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: on a lot of my behavior and it's here. There 312 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: are probably other things that happened when I was even 313 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: younger than that that someone led to that situation, and 314 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: so I think that there was a lot of dissociation 315 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: for me you know a lot, and I know there 316 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: are a lot of young women who go through and 317 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: men who go through that too, and so it's it's interesting. 318 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: It's not that I feel differently than that quote now, 319 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: but I think I was twenty five years old, I 320 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: had I had been trying to that part of me 321 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: that was trying to figure out who was I. An 322 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: aspect of my social identity to myself was I'm comfortable 323 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: with my sexuality and it's a good thing, and this 324 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: is what young women should do. And the truth is 325 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: is like underneath all of that, because I see it 326 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: now and also impacted by what happened in ninety eight, 327 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: it's like the intimacy issues, you know, the real sort 328 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: of the very bearing of your soul and and being 329 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,719 Speaker 1: physically and sexually intimate with someone and emotionally intimate, you know, 330 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:33,959 Speaker 1: the difficulties that can happen there, and well, unavailable people 331 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: in some aspects too. There's something in that and it's 332 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: not and I'm sure you know it's not just a 333 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: wedding ring that makes someone unavailable. I mean there's the 334 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: you know, we could probably have a whole museum exhibit 335 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: of different kinds of unavailability and you know. I mean, 336 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: I'll be I'm forty nine, I'll be turning fifty in July. 337 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: And this last year has been so much about acceptance 338 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: for me, of just sort of recognizing, okay, where am 339 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: I and and accepting that. And I you know, there's 340 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 1: there's a part of me that looks at some of 341 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: my relationship history and it has just gotten to a 342 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: point where I'm like, I don't, I don't know. Maybe 343 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: maybe I can't do that. Maybe I have this really 344 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,479 Speaker 1: deep I mean, I'm so lucky I have. I have 345 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: incredible friends. I have really deep emotional intimacy with these people. 346 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: There's there's not a barrier there, and yet I think, 347 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, I seem to don't cry, lift off, 348 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: don't don't don't say it's not but also great. But 349 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: it's just I think that there's also it doesn't mean 350 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: I can't have connection, it doesn't mean I won't evolve, 351 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: it's you know, where things may not shift. You know 352 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: that I'm hearing a lot of people who are trying 353 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: MDMA therapy and having a lot of success, and especially 354 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: with PTSD, so you know, who knows. But I'm not 355 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: trying to It's not like a Saba or you know, 356 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: violin playing moment of like, oh I I've you know, 357 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: retired from romance or anything. I think it's just about 358 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 1: coming into your own being okay with with where things are. 359 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you become complacent, but you just you're okay. 360 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: You didn't just become okay. You know, I want to 361 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: I want to really applaud you for all of the 362 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: work and the time and the willingness to confront and talk. 363 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: And you know you didn't just push things up, shove 364 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: stuff under the carpet. And you know you've you've had 365 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of abusiveness towards you and towards 366 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: that little girl, and well, I talk a lot about 367 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:50,959 Speaker 1: this about a reclaiming of yourself and I didn't start 368 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:55,719 Speaker 1: that until my fifties. And I'm happy for you for 369 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: this next phase because I think it's a blooming. It's 370 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: a it's a different type of a blossoming. But you've 371 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: done the hard work to get there. I have I'm 372 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: going to I will accept that. So thank you. It 373 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: is it's I was actually just saying yesterday to someone 374 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: who has for positive reasons but kind of come into 375 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: a lot of attention in a fast way, somewhat unexpectedly, 376 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: and I was saying, how in order to do in 377 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, when Impeachment was coming out and a 378 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: month later fifteen Minutes of Shame was launching, and I 379 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 1: was needing to do a lot of things that are 380 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: very uncomfortable for me. The amount of support that I 381 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: had to build for myself is crazy, you know. I 382 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: mean it's the regular therapist, the somatic therapist, the energy work, 383 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: the friend of his, this other energy work, the crystals, 384 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: the the you know, the person I work with practice 385 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: seeing and hearing questions that could upset me so that 386 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: I'm able to show up because it's really scary for 387 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:16,719 Speaker 1: me to show up publicly that way. What's interesting is 388 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: you did so many interviews, yeah, back in the day, 389 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 1: and you were so open and so I'm so curious 390 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: too in looking back at them. What do you think 391 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: about them? What is your opinion of the Barbara Walters interview? 392 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: Because I have an opinion about my Barbara Walters interview. Yeah, 393 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: it's um. You know. I Barbara and I had a 394 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: friendship that you know, went on until she passed recently. 395 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: Although I think like a number of people. I heard 396 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: from her less and less the last couple of years, 397 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: but from that whole period. I mean, those those kinds 398 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: of interviews are complicated to look at now because where 399 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: they're fascinating when you're not the person who's the subject, 400 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: is to see, oh, this is a reflection of where 401 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: we were in the culture. It was okay to say this, 402 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: It was okay to ask that of a young person, 403 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: and I for me and maybe this is you know, 404 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: not that there's a right answer, but that whole period 405 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: of I just look back on it, and what feels 406 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: sad to me was I had this very naive view 407 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: at the time that if people just got to know me, 408 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: they would go, oh, oh okay, you're not all these 409 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: awful things that we thought. And I truly thought that 410 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: after I sat down and did this, you know, big 411 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: interview with Barbara and had had participated in the book 412 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: with Andrew. I mean that was more also to help 413 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: pay legal fees and things that I thought, oh, okay, 414 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: then people will they'll get it, they'll understand, people will 415 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: like me. And I was so wrong. I was so wrong. 416 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it took over fifteen years for people to 417 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: be in a place the world to be in a place, 418 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: new generations, for people to be willing to sort of 419 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: ratch the surface of my true self. But you're you're 420 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: preyed upon, and you're I mean, the betrayal is what 421 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm I mean from Linda Trip's betrayal, the non admission 422 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: of relationship, with Bill's betrayal, the people who knew me, 423 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: you know, they were a handful of people who who 424 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: who knew me, who were in that who still made 425 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: the choices they made. You know, um, and that it 426 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: didn't jade you and harden your heart is a fucking marriage. 427 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: I agree. I'm really it's you know, I've had some 428 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: incredibly unlucky things happened to me, but I'm a really 429 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: lucky person because you're so right. I could have ended 430 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: up just bitter. I could have ended up bitter, not 431 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: ever trusting anybody, never opening my heart again to someone. 432 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: And that hasn't happened, and it has come from hard work. Yeah. 433 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: I was going to say, why do you think you 434 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 1: didn't become bitter? You know, I went through phases where 435 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: I was, but I think that I started, you know, 436 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: I started doing I see it's energy work or consciousness 437 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: work in part because even though I've done it for 438 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: over fifteen years, I still don't know how to really 439 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: talk about it in the right way. But it's really 440 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: been this energy, consciousness, spiritual work that heals and evolved 441 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: my soul right, And so I think that because of that, 442 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: and because of my friends and my family, I was 443 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: able to hold on to that core self, and that 444 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: core self was eventually felt safe enough to sort of 445 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: start to blossom again. Do you think that you've grieved 446 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: sufficiently the loss of privacy? No? No, I I you've 447 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: gotten some of your privacy back. Yeah, I have. I 448 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: have where it's definitely and it's also shifted, you know. 449 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: So I mean I say it jokingly, but there's truth 450 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: to it that. It's like people don't say to me, 451 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: no offense, do you know who you look like? Anymore? 452 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: Like they'll say, oh, your Ted talk helped me, or 453 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: you know, your anti bullying campaign on this help my kids. 454 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: They start with no offense. Yeah, oh for years, like 455 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: no offense, but do you know who you look like? 456 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: And it's like, yes, yes I do. I've gotten you know, 457 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: I thought you were really gonna suck, but you're You're like, Okay, 458 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: you're good. When they've seen me on stage and it's like, oh, well, 459 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: thank you for setting the bar solo exactly easily, you know, 460 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: jump over bred um. Yeah. So this show is called 461 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: now What. And aside from the most infamous now what 462 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: year are two or fifteen? What in your life? Can 463 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: you sort of pinpoint as another powerful now what moment 464 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: in your life? I think there were two that were 465 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: very close together for me, and one was my Vanity 466 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,239 Speaker 1: Fair essay being published in twenty fourteen and sort of 467 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: having this opportunity of writing a first person essay instead 468 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: of being interviewed that coming out, having the conversations that 469 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: were happening between the generations, and it was really this 470 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: younger generation that kind of forced me to re evaluate, 471 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: or not forced me, but I think forced others to reevaluate, 472 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: to reevaluate the situation. That was sort of a jumping 473 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: in having no idea where I was going to land moment. 474 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: And then second close to that, I think was the 475 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: moment at the end of my TED talk when people 476 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: responded positively to the talk. When I was in the room, 477 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: people were shaking their heads, they were agreeing with you, 478 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: They gave you a standing ovation. It was it was hard. 479 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: Chris Anderson sort of sweetly kind of made me take 480 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: the moment, in which I very much appreciate now, because 481 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: I just kind of wanted to run off stage, and 482 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: you know, three quarters of the way through, in my head, 483 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, this is so boring. 484 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: Everybody's bored. I better hurry up and finish, and oh god. 485 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: So but I think from there that those were and 486 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: those only came because I took risks. I think public opinion, 487 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: you know, really sort of shifted and people are looking 488 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: back at ninety eight with a very different lens, and 489 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: so much of our history really does shape us. But 490 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: I really firmly believe that we are also more than 491 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: what we've been through. So who is Monica Lewinsky in 492 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three very grateful? I'm just grateful person. I 493 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: love to laugh. I love making other people laugh. I 494 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: don't you know. I'm my happiest when I'm kind of 495 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: with the people that really get me, that I love. 496 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: And you know, I have a handful of friends that 497 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: the marker for me is usually around like can I 498 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: spend an entire day with you and not get annoyed? 499 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: You know, And so like the ones that I do like, 500 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: those are my people. I'm happier in a one on 501 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: one or a small dinner party than a big, you know, 502 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: a big thing. So I don't know, that's not I 503 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: don't I don't know how to say who I am now, 504 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm silly. That was the incredible Monica Lewinsky. Monica, 505 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: if you're listening, thank you so much for sharing your story. 506 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: The world needs to hear it from you, and I'm 507 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: so grateful for your time. If you have time, go 508 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,959 Speaker 1: watch Monica's documentary Fifteen Minutes of Shame. It's streaming now 509 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: on HBO Max. And if you have extra time, head 510 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: on over to Apple Podcasts and please give now What 511 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: with Brookshields a rating and a review. These things really 512 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: help listeners discover us. Now What with Brookshields is a 513 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. Our lead producer and wonderful showrunner is 514 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: Julia Weaver. Additional research and editing by Darby Masters and 515 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: abou Zafar. Our executive producer is Christina Everett. The show 516 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: is mixed by Bahed Fraser.