1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily, and this is Bridge and welcome 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: to Stefflon. Never told you. We are excited to dive 3 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: into today's conversation around something that's not terribly wonderful news, 4 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: but it is very interesting and very solvable. Nonetheless, you 5 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: might have heard the term the mommy tax, or it's 6 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: more modern iteration, the motherhood penalty, and we're going to 7 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: dive into why it's problematic and what can be done 8 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: about it. So it's actually fun is that this is 9 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: one of those problems that's very solvable. So you know, 10 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: you might hear a lot of things in this episode 11 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: that are really depressing and really messed up and then 12 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: make you mad, but just know they have very concrete solutions. Right. 13 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: And I think the mommy tax is is interesting because 14 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: you might have remembered last month in April, equal pay 15 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: day rolled around, which is that unfortunate so called holiday. 16 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: I'm putting that in air quotes because it's an eye 17 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: roll type of holiday that is a symbolic date that 18 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: represents how many days into the average woman had to 19 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: work to earn what the average American man took home 20 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: in his paycheck last year. And this the mommy tax 21 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: really is one of the main contributing factors to why 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: the pay gap between men and women in America is 23 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: so seemingly intractable, so persistent. And the mommy tax was 24 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: a term first coined way back in two thousand one. 25 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: Allah what in sync days, So I think that the 26 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: term is a little dated, But I think it's funny 27 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: because Anne Crittenden wrote her book called The Price of Motherhood, 28 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: and she coined the term the mommy tax, even though 29 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: nowadays it tends to be noted more as the motherhood 30 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: penalty and the fatherhood wage premium. And it really is 31 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: because this is a financial phenomenon that doesn't just affect women, right, 32 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: bridget it doesn't impacts dads to men to um, there's 33 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: some interesting research that suggests that um, it impacts men. 34 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: Get ready for the shocker, it's actually when a man 35 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: as a child, it's actually good for his career. And 36 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: then women are somethings penalized for it. So it's you know, 37 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: it's not something that is sort of just independently focused 38 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: on women, right. And that's really what the motherhood or 39 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: the mommy tax is. It's this reality in the modern 40 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: American job market that having a child is not a 41 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: good career move for women, and The New York Times 42 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: put it really blatantly when they had this uh two 43 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen article with the title, a child helps your 44 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: career if you're a man, and it opens with just 45 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: putting it all out there saying, one of the worst 46 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: career moves a woman can make is to have children. 47 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: Mothers are less likely to be hired for jobs, to 48 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: be perceived as competent at work, or to be paid 49 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: as much as their male colleagues with the same qualifications. 50 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: So just by becoming a mom and someone else importantly 51 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: knowing that you are a mother, they project all of 52 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: these assumptions on you that can really negatively impact your career, 53 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: which is not fair. It's not fair. And what's so 54 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: what's so kind of like shocking about this is that 55 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: one of the studies that we found when you're researching 56 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: this for the show was they did this really interesting 57 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: test where they had resumes, and on the resumes they 58 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: were both identical resumes, and then men and women a 59 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: man and a woman with the identical and on the 60 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: women's resume, they put, you know, on the board of 61 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: the pta, suggesting that she was a mom and that 62 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: or the woman that you know, people didn't call her 63 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: back like I think it was like she got callbacks 64 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: half half the time. And that for men it helps them. 65 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: And so this idea is that like for men, you know, 66 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: you can think of it as the daddy boost. Men 67 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: are going to be more likely to be perceived as 68 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: having these like positive attributions of being a dad, so 69 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: being warm, or being affable or being harry and there's 70 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: a good thing. Yeah, And it's like, oh great, he's 71 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: a dad, it must be like a good guy. Um. 72 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: And then for a woman it's like, oh, she's a mom, 73 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: she must be flighty and uncommitted, not committed to work. 74 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: So that you're you're talking about the study by Shelley Correll, 75 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: who is She's done some a couple of studies that 76 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: have been really troubling to read. She's a sociology professor 77 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: at Stanford. And in that experiment, those fake resumes were 78 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: actually sent really and truly to hundreds of real employers 79 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: and they were identical. Um. But what's interesting is not 80 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: only were fathers more likely to be called back when 81 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,559 Speaker 1: compared to male resumes without the p T A line. 82 00:04:54,880 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 1: So presumably no fatherhood mentioned whatsoever. So men get a 83 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: boost for simply being known as being a father, but 84 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: mothers were half as likely to be called back when 85 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: compared to other women. That's a wild and in a 86 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: similar study that she did in the Lab, Correll asked 87 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: participants how much they would pay job applicants if they 88 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: were employers with these same resumes. Mothers were offered, on 89 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: average eleven thousand dollars less than childless women and thirteen 90 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: thousand less than fathers. So clearly the pay gap is real, 91 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: but the pay gap between moms and child free women 92 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: is really real too. That's outrageous. I mean, honestly, when 93 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: you think about what they're calling the daddy boost, it 94 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: really reminds me of this sort of like cultural notion 95 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: that like, oh, dad's if you're I feel like the 96 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: bar is kind of low for dad's. I feel like 97 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: dad's like if you are a father who was taking 98 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: any kind of active role in your child's life, society 99 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: is so willing to applaud you for that, But a woman, 100 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: it's like they're so ready to tear her down. It 101 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: builds right into these outdated stereotypes about what a woman's 102 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 1: role is in the family and what a man's role is. 103 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: So it almost it doesn't really surprise me that the 104 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: daddy bonus or the fatherhood premium exists because people still 105 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: today thinking, oh, he's got a family, he needs to 106 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: support them, he's obviously the breadwinner, and the mom is 107 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: just like supplementary and cone It's like, you know, it's 108 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: like this idea that like, if you're a working woman, 109 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: you're just like working to like have spending money, and 110 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: that your husband is taking care of your like you know, 111 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: children or worse or worse. It's like, why aren't you 112 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: home taking care of your kids. You're probably distracted because 113 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: that's what you're actually doing. So for men, the research 114 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: shows that having a child is clearly good for your 115 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: career path. It's it's good for getting hired, for getting 116 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: callbacks and interviews. They're more likely to be higher than 117 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: childless men and be paid more after they have children. 118 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 1: It builds into this outdated assumption that men are breadwinners, 119 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: are soul bread owners of the family, and therefore need 120 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: to be paid more to support their family. And for me, 121 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: actually this came up. We're going to dive into the 122 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: nuanced research of this in a second. But for me, 123 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: this actually came up in a real way recently when 124 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: Brad the Boo was negotiating his new job offer that 125 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: it required a cross country move and we are unmarried 126 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: and have a dog. Let me just be clear about this. 127 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: We are unmarried and have a dog. And yet when 128 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: he was negotiating, and yes, I did coach him through 129 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: that negotiation, because that's that's one of the perks of 130 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: having having me around, you know, we we really prepared 131 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: for his reasoning and his argument. And one of the 132 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: one of the pieces of the conversation that he sort 133 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: of added in on his own was listen, this isn't 134 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: just me we're talking about. We're uprooting, you know, my 135 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: family and we're all moving across the country. And I 136 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: kind of like laughed a little bit at hearing him 137 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: play the family car, like, oh yeah, I'm out of 138 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: the family. Part of the fans such a part of 139 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: the fan that and we had a pull them out 140 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: of doggy daycare and everything a new dog school. I know, 141 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: he used to make new friends all over again. The trauma, 142 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: the trauma, but it worked for him. He got everything 143 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: he asked for and it was a substantial moving bonus 144 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: to cover the costs of all of our relocation. So 145 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: it's just kind of interesting that if he was a woman, 146 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: I would have probably advised him against saying that, but 147 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: he didn't. He didn't, he worked for him. Yeah, I 148 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: almost feel like if he was a woman, that line 149 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: of like I'm moving my whole family wouldn't would not 150 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: cut it. Like, I feel like they almost would be 151 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: inspired to pay that person less. Yes, that's clearly what 152 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: the research points to, and it those differences in resumes 153 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: and pay offered in likelihood of being called back or hired, 154 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: they persist even after controlling for factors just straight out 155 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: of the New York Times article, like the hours people work, 156 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: the types of jobs they choose, and the salaries of 157 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: their houses. So the disparity is not because mothers become 158 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: less productive employees and fathers work harder when they become parents, 159 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: but because employers expect them too. So what's interesting that 160 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: I found, um, is that mothers actually are are great workers. Right. 161 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: You might be thinking like, oh, well, maybe it's just 162 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,959 Speaker 1: that like when women become mothers, they just stop caring 163 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: about their jobs and they know that's wrong. No, incorrect. Um, Yeah, 164 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: all of the studies are pretty conclusive that moms. You know, 165 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: becoming a mother does not impact a woman's motivation at work. 166 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: It does not impact her ambition or her efficiency at all. Anything. 167 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: They're more efficient totally um compared to fathers. Mothers are 168 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: actually more engaged at work and work more intensely. For example, 169 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: mothers more often than fathers reported that they quote got 170 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: so involved in their work that they forget about everything else, 171 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,599 Speaker 1: even time. Right, And so that's a directive quote of 172 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: someone who was a participant in the study that like 173 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: working women are not sort of like slacking off and 174 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: not just sort of like you know, at work, but really, 175 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: you know, in their heads thinking about picking up the 176 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: kid at soccer or making dinner or whatever. They're actually 177 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: working as hard as, if not harder than their male counterparts. 178 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: But yet this perception problem persists, right, And I can 179 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: understand the challenge, right, it's certainly not easy. But I 180 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: think women are almost overcompensating because we know that perception 181 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: is real, and the fear around being seen is less 182 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: committed when you have a child so warranted. It's so 183 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: legitimate because this perception problem really does hold women back. 184 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: I had a friend Um, when I was working at 185 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: a big media outlet who was a mom, and she 186 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: said that, Um, whenever she mentioned having to do something 187 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: related to her kids, like oh, I can't make that 188 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: meeting because I have my kid as a thing, she 189 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: would always just say I have an appointment because she 190 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 1: noticed that if she ever said I can't, you know, 191 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: because of reason for my child. But that when her 192 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: male counterpart employees and the same position, same whatever, said 193 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: something like oh, I have my kids thing, the reactions 194 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: were like, oh, what a good dad like. But for 195 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: her it was seen as like slacking. And it's interesting 196 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: how these stereotypes, in these myths kind of play out 197 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: in our everyday workless. Yeah, it's infuriating. It's such a 198 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: double standard. Definitely. Um. Well, I think what's also problematic 199 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: here is the pay gap. Right. The pay gap is 200 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: something we hear a lot about between men and women, 201 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: But when you really look at this data about child 202 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: free pay gap or child free women versus mothers and 203 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: their pay gap, the difference is so significant. So childless, 204 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,719 Speaker 1: unmarried women are nineties six cents for every dollar and 205 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: mannerns on average, which is progress in my opinion, like 206 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: great progress, while and still there's a room to go, right, 207 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: There's plenty of room to go. But while married mothers 208 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: earned seventy six cents for the dollar that men make, 209 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: widening that gap to where it seems like it needs 210 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: it needs to be closed. It needs to be closed. 211 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: That I mean, that's so infuriating because I just think 212 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: about my mom growing up, Like my mom is a doctor, 213 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: and she worked her way through medical school when we 214 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: were kids, and like, you know, she worked as a 215 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: maid and like all of this, like she worked so 216 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: hard and to have it be like because of us, 217 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: I guess she didn't make as much money. Like that 218 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: is just infuriating. And some people might be saying, but wait, 219 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: don't moms, you know, just tend to work less after 220 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: they have kids. Don't they pulled back? Doesn't that explain it? 221 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: And the research clearly states and no, some mothers cut 222 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: back on hours or accept lower paying jobs that are 223 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: more family friendly. And we know that flexibility is high 224 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: on the on the desirables list for both men and 225 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: women these days, and that for companies to retain talent, 226 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: that's definitely a big part of how they're doing, though, 227 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: especially amongst millennial men who report wanting work life balance 228 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: and work family balance more so or just on same 229 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: rate as millennial women. Which I think we can really 230 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: solve this problem really if we make if we make 231 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: if our generation makes this a priority, I think we 232 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: can really make progress here. But with mother's cutting back 233 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: on hours are accepting lower paying jobs, that only explains 234 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: about a quarter to a third of the motherhood penalty. 235 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: So it says here that it's true that fathers sometimes 236 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: work more after having children, but that explains at most 237 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: six of their bonus. So basically the there are there 238 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: are personal choices that feed into the premium that dad's 239 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 1: get and the penalty that moms get, but it's not sufficient. 240 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: The majority of the gap research suggests is based on 241 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: good old fashioned discrimination, our old friend, just straight up perception. 242 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: And you know, we know that the truth is that 243 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: moms mothers are efficient. Mothers are efficient. They work just 244 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: as hard, if not harder than men. The research is 245 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: really clear about that um and their motivate did by 246 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: you know, wanting to provide for their families. They're just 247 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: just like men are, right like um, mothers and fathers 248 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: are equally motivated by their family responsibilities to provide financially 249 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: for their households. And so it's not like women are 250 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: pulling back, you know, because they because that's a choice 251 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: they're making. They're doing the same thing that men are doing, 252 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: still getting paid less for it. And so I think 253 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: that double standard is really what I find to be 254 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: so sort of mind boggling that it is just based 255 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: on myths and discrimination and sexism, right, and this is 256 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: becoming especially important to figure out. This motherhood penalty is 257 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: especially unfair now that for in ten American households with 258 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: kids include a mother who is either the soul or 259 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: primary earner for her family. So we really got to 260 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: like get this, We gotta get it together on this, America, 261 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: get it together, lack it up, because the fact is, 262 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: these outdated assumptions presumed that the male is the breadwinner 263 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: and so he should earn more to provide for his family, 264 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: and then also resumes unfairly that the woman is the 265 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: primary caregiver so she must be distracted at work, and 266 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: that's just not true and it's not their myths. So 267 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: I think we have a lot more to talk about 268 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: on this, but first I want to take a moment 269 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: to hear from our sponsors and when we are back, 270 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about how this affects high income 271 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: women versus not so high income women very differently. But 272 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: first let's take a break. Interestingly, be there is one 273 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: exception as to where the motherhood penalty stopped showing up 274 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: all together. So who of all the women in the 275 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: world don't get penalized with the motherhood penalty? It is 276 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: ding ding ding. We have a winner. So it's funny 277 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: being a woman holds you back if you're a mom 278 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: at work, except if you're a super loaded rich mom 279 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: who would have thought right, immense wealth would have the 280 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: privilegious such privilegious. Let's just add one more to the file, 281 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: shall we. So this this is from miss Budwig boot 282 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: Bootig's study. Uh sorry, miss Bootig, I think I messed 283 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: your name of But what she found was that women 284 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: in the top ten percent of earners lost no income 285 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: when they had children, and those in the top five 286 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: percent received bonuses. So they have that fatherhood premium effect 287 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: when you are super loaded rich mom in the top 288 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: five percent of income earners. She speculated that these rarefied 289 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: jobs are these these high income employers see their high 290 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: performing women in a similar way that they traditionally see men, 291 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: and that women might need more money to provide for 292 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: their families a k a. To provide for their professional 293 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: caretakers who they need to afford, you know, to afford 294 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: the time to be devoted to their jobs in such 295 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: a big way. Yeah, I mean that's completely unsurprising to me, 296 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: right Like, I And this is something I think I've 297 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: always sort of been an advocate for, is when we 298 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: talk about motherhood, when we talk about having a family, 299 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: the way that economics reflects on that, right, Like, I 300 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: feel like we talk about being a working mom in 301 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: this sort of blanket way and we sort of don't 302 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: like to acknowledge that. Yet you're wealthy, your challenges look 303 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: different than the challenges of a low income mother. The 304 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: things that you're up against look different. Um, I always 305 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 1: it makes me cringe whatever, you know. I think it 306 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: was like Gwyneth Paltrow or somebody or they were like, oh, 307 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: so you're a working mom, how do you do it? 308 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: And I'm like, she probably has lots of help. She 309 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: probably hasn't like nanny Cook. I just love women who 310 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: are very clear about that. Who was it was someone? 311 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: You know? It was John John legends wife Chris's great 312 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: get her cookbook many ways. So she was like, you 313 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: want to know how I bounced back. I have a 314 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: lot of help. I have a lot of professional help 315 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: from a physical standpoint, but also, you know, not just 316 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: on my training, you know, not just my trainer helping 317 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: me get my body back to model status. But also 318 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: she has so much help because she can afford it. 319 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: And this is where I am frustrated by Marissa Mayor, 320 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: the CEO of Yahoo, who was back from giving birth 321 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: just a few short weeks afterwards, and she had a 322 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: nursery attached to her office, which sounds great, but and 323 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: I'm not here to shame her for going back to 324 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: work so soon, because I just think for anyone to 325 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: extrapolate anything about Marissa Mayor's motherhood experience that is supposed 326 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: to be comparable or relatable to the average female worker, 327 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: like the average mother workers experience, is absurd. Yeah, I agree, 328 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: And I That's what makes me cringe is that we 329 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: do that, Like why do we uphold someone like that, 330 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: like someone who's a big wig at young who was 331 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: super super rich. Why do we talk about her motherhood 332 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: experience like as if it is supposed to be like 333 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: we're able to clean anything about that from a regular 334 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: working mom, Like, I don't know why we live in 335 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: a culture that insists that there's some some information to 336 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: be had there when I feel like, you know, there's 337 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: just not. I think it's hard for us to acknowledge 338 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: that instead of my individuality, my individual contributions to work, 339 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,959 Speaker 1: that I'm being measured on, or that I'm being judged on, 340 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: that I fall into a category. Uh, you know that 341 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: that comes with preconceived notions that might hold me back. 342 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: I think there's just an American obsession with individuality also 343 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: that makes it hard for us to say, well, maybe 344 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: there are macro level prejudices acting upon me. That's interesting me, 345 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: that's I think you're so right and that's so interesting 346 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: where it's like I almost wonder if you know, when 347 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: I'm not a mom, but like when you become a mom, 348 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: are you just like in this category of like you're 349 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: no longer like a woman, You're no longer like an individual, 350 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: You're I mean, I feel like from what I've heard again, 351 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,479 Speaker 1: I'm not a mother either, but your identity shifts and 352 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: the way it's not just external either, the way other 353 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: people see you shifts, but the way you see yourself shifts. 354 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: And and I'd love to hear from our moms in 355 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: the audience too, And I and I think that the 356 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: solutions to this problem really adhere are applied to all 357 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: of us in terms of what what would make work 358 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: easier for all women, period, and what would level the 359 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: playing field. We're not talking about giving women an advantage. 360 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 1: We're talking about removing a penalty that's not fair. And really, 361 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: speaking of that penalty, if it doesn't affect very rich women, 362 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: guess who it does affect the absolute I bet you 363 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: would get it ready. It is so the fact that 364 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: low income workers benefit the least or suffer the most 365 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: economically sos in York times is perhaps not surprising. They 366 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: are the least likely of all to have flexible schedules 367 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: or benefits like paid parental leave. Low wage women with 368 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: children under six, when offspring need the most in person care, 369 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: they paid a wage penalty five times as great as 370 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: that of higher paid women with young children. And as 371 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: we've established, higher paid women with young children also pay 372 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: a pretty significant penalty. Multiply that by five, and that's 373 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: that's part of the cycle of poverty. That's so hard, 374 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: and that's that I find that to be so infuriating 375 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: because honestly, it's like everybody deserves to when you have 376 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: a child, to like have maternal leave or paternal leaf, 377 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: Like everyone deserves that. That's what a child means, to 378 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: have a good head start in life. And it makes 379 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: me so angry that we have policies in this country 380 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: that do not reflect you know that that's an important 381 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: thing like that. We talk about sort of being pro life, 382 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: you talk about sort of preserving you know, giving kids 383 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: a good head start, and it's like our policies do 384 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: the exact opposite. Well, and we're such an anomaly in 385 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: terms of the global perspectives. The only developed nation that 386 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: doesn't have paid peral leave is that, right, Yeah, it's absolute, 387 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,719 Speaker 1: the right. Let's dive into the policy solutions to this 388 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: problem in just a second, but first we're going to 389 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: take a quick break. So as we've established the fact 390 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: that having a child can hurt a woman's career and 391 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: somehow benefit men's careers and their salaries feels completely unfair, 392 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: unfair and grounded in outdated bs stereotypes that no longer apply. 393 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: So what, oh, what can we do to solve this problem. 394 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: The good news is it's very solvable, and I feel 395 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: like with so many things that are wrong with our 396 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: country and wrong with our world, it has a policy solution, yeah, 397 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: which is I'm I'm all about individual solutions, you know 398 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: what I mean. I'm all about taking the power into 399 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: your own hands. But this is one of those situations 400 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: where macro level economics and macro level policy solutions take 401 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: the worden off you as an individual, from having to 402 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: solve this problem and fight these battles on your own day. 403 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 1: Because I don't think it's a woman's responsibility to have to. 404 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 1: I think that all women should be good negotiators and 405 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: be boss ladies, right, But I don't think it should 406 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: it should fall on your shoulders to feel like you 407 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: have to negotiate tramp through like institutional sexism, right right, 408 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: You can't. I don't feel that we can, and we can't. Yeah, 409 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: we need, we need all people, men and women to 410 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: come together to solve these big policy problems because guess what, 411 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: they help men and women both eliminate and like sort 412 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: of shake off these outdated, unfair stereotypes that make it 413 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: harder for a man to be a full time parent 414 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: and and are just as confining sometimes and how well, 415 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say just as confining, but are very confining 416 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: the ways in their own ways that hold men back 417 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: from leading full and happy and robust lives personally and professionally. 418 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: So so there are two main policy solutions that researchers 419 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: have found, especially in the many other countries that actually 420 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: have of these policies in place, that shrink the motherhood penalty. 421 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: And first and foremost is publicly funded, high quality childcare 422 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: for babies and toddlers. And that's so important because I mean, 423 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: I have only recently found out how expensive it is 424 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: to have shelfcare. Like I didn't. I don't think I 425 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: realized what an insane I mean, like in some places 426 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: it's it's you know, it's compartable to paying for rest or. 427 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: And so I just think that, like, you know, we're 428 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: not able to be a functional society if we don't 429 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: allow for people to care for their kids while they 430 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: were just doesn't end. And there were two books actually 431 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: that really opened my eyes to that problem. One is 432 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: called Overwhelmed. It's by Bridget Schulte, who was spent a 433 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: good portion of her career at the Washington Post overwhelmed, work, love, 434 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: and play when no one has the time. She did 435 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: an extensive review and to the history behind America's relationship 436 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: with almost but then not reforming our policies around childcare. Um, 437 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: it almost happened, but it didn't. We should do a 438 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: whole other episode on that, quite frankly. And then the 439 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: other book was one authored by a Marie Slaughter called 440 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: Unfinished Business, and really she talks about how the women's 441 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: movement have helped women act more like men and enter 442 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: the fields that men are in and and be more 443 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: you know, masculine in our leadership and getting paid. But 444 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: it hasn't asked, you know. The unfinished business of feminism 445 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: is that the world hasn't adapted to what women actually 446 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: need in our non work related lives and our personal 447 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: lives to show up fully. Unfortunately, Kristen and Caroline did 448 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 1: a great episode on this, uh just last year, the 449 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 1: Unfinished Business of Working Class Equality. That's a really good 450 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: episode to check out completely. And I also, I mean, 451 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: I always have to shout this out, but like in 452 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: my book, it's not feminism if it leaves working class 453 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: women behind, right, if your feminism is just like, how 454 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: can women be more like men and how like, you know, 455 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: I don't think that's what we're supposed to be doing. 456 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: I think yeah, and that's I think that's why the 457 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: public policy piece is so critical here. The other so 458 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: beyond publicly funded high quality childcare that's universally you know, 459 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 1: affordable and accessible, which would change the game for women 460 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: achieving our full potential at work for men and women 461 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: from being you know, sharing in both work and at 462 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: home responsibilities. But beyond that is also paid per rental 463 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: leave policies, which got a lot of press in this 464 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: last presidential election. Notably for the first time, and don't 465 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to give anybody too much 466 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: credit here, for the first time, a major Republican party, right, 467 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: the major Republican party presidential candidates were on board for 468 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: paid maternal leave, right, paid maternity and that is something 469 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: that's not new, that is new, and what it means 470 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: is that they actually acknowledge that women workers are demanded 471 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: that we catch up to the rest of the developed world, 472 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: and that maybe it's not a radical government takeover if 473 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,479 Speaker 1: we ask to be given time off after the arrival 474 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: of a new child in our lives, whether you give 475 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: birth to them or not right the arrival of your 476 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: child and your family to get some time off. And 477 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: I think it's so reasonable. And it's like, I get 478 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: so cranky about this because when you think about folks 479 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: who are on this sort of American exceptionalist bandwagon, it's like, 480 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: doesn't that like, shouldn't that really bother them? The people 481 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: who are like, oh, America is the greatest country ever. 482 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: Shouldn't bother them that? Like women, you know, I've heard 483 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 1: horror stories of women having to go back to work, 484 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: you know, days after giving birth. You know, there are 485 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: lawsuits where you know, they dictate whether or not a 486 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: pregnant worker can stand or not. And it's like having 487 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: to make those choices. It's it's I think it's obscene. 488 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: It is obscene. It's not very humane if we really 489 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: think about it. But beyond that, it's not good business. 490 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: So there's an argument from the business community. And I 491 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: own a small business. I get it. It's expensive, right, 492 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: it's costly, But you know what else is expensive and 493 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: costly is turnover is like not actually caring about your talent. 494 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: And I think there is a lot of argument, there 495 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: are many arguments to be made that for our economy 496 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: to function sustainably. That this is not too much to ask. 497 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: That other countries have clearly made it work. And the 498 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: problem is here, here's the problem with just maternity leaf, though, 499 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: what is that set up for the rest of that 500 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: child's life, for the rest of that parental structure. It 501 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: assumes that mom needs time off because mom is the 502 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: primary caregame, right, And again, it's just like what we're 503 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: talking about earlier. It's baking these kind of outdated, old 504 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: fashioned notions about gender into you know, the domestic sphere. 505 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: And it is troubling too, because there's a kind of 506 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: sexism here that that's baked into that assumption is benevolent sexism, 507 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: which sometimes takes this awful, nice sounding form of well, 508 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: we want to be kind to women, right, we want 509 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: to protect women, and so we're gonna care for women, 510 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: but not treat them like peers, not respect their intellectual prowess, 511 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: of their their ability to show up fully in the workplace. 512 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: We're gonna give them this gift because women are weak 513 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: and need our protection. It shouldn't like that, that's exactly right, Like, 514 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: we shouldn't be thinking about paternal opporternity leave as a gift, right, 515 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: but I think the way that we talk about it 516 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: is it's like this like special thing that we're exception, 517 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: and I think it's we're thinking about it all wrong. 518 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: Even when we get it right, we still kind of 519 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: get it wrong, yeah, which is sad. Well. I feel 520 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: like half the dialogue politically has been about maternity leave. 521 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: The other half has been about parental leave. And in 522 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: countries that um that have parental leave policies, like Sweden, 523 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: which actually has really progressive policies, including incentives for new 524 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,239 Speaker 1: fathers to take that leave, they end up having a 525 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: smaller pay at between the motherhood penalty shrinks even further, 526 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: and it actually encourages the changing role of fathers in society, 527 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: being more active and they are rewarded for that. Right. 528 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: I think that's that tidbit of it is so impactful, 529 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: because what good is this policy if like men feel 530 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: kind of a shamed out of taking they do, and 531 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: like if you incentivize it and say like, no, actually 532 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: we really want we think you're going to be a 533 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: better employee, it's just good business. And so I do 534 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: think that thinking about it from the business community, that 535 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: perspective of, like we want to encourage our employees to 536 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: be happy, healthy, functional, full people when they come to 537 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: work that our you know, bottom line is going to improve. 538 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: When that's the case, you can really incentivize some of 539 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: these common sense legislations and common sense policies. Sound like 540 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: you're on the stump, just common send. I love it. 541 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: I would totally vote for bridget Yeah, I mean it is. 542 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: It is troubling because and I want I'm glad to 543 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: bring attention to this, this nuanced component to what I 544 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: think gets a lot of ink, which is the pay gap. 545 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: We hear over and over again that women make you know, 546 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: what is it seventy something since on the every dollar, 547 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: and then people start to get all man's blaining on 548 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: it and start to like say, well, not really, and 549 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: that there's truth to the fact that it's very complex 550 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: and nuanced, but when you still control for all the 551 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: personal choices that go into it, Moms especially, but women 552 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: overall are still paid less than men for the same work, 553 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:26,959 Speaker 1: and that needs to change. But this is a good 554 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: place to start. Let's start with parental policies. Let's start 555 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: with policies that benefit both men and women, that level 556 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: the playing field and start to eliminate and have clearly 557 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: eliminated in other countries the motherhood penalty that women incur 558 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: at work when having kids. And so I think in 559 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: tackling a lot of these problems, it makes so much 560 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: sense to just start with things that have already been 561 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: demonstrated to be effective with other countries. Absolutely, and I 562 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: think big policy or big level, high level policy reform 563 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: is a really important prerequisite to solving this problem. We 564 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: can't solve this problem alone, However, there is and there 565 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: are some practical takeaways for individuals in the job search 566 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: process or in that negotiation process that can also we 567 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: can draw some conclusions from the data too that I 568 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: think are really really important to touch upon. So, as 569 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: a negotiation coach, right, what would you suggest that women do? 570 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: Who are moms? So first, it gives me no great 571 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: pleasure to give this advice, because women shouldn't have to 572 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: adapt to our imperfect world full of injustice, and women 573 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: shouldn't have to hide themselves and their human lives right 574 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: from employers. However, according to this research, there's a very 575 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: clear case to be made for not discussing or disclosing 576 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: your parental status while in the interview and negotiation process. 577 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: In fact, it is illegal for people to ask you, 578 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: for your employers to ask you about parental status in 579 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: the interview or in the negotiation process. Yeah, there's actually 580 00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,959 Speaker 1: a lot of questions that are not allowed for employer. 581 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: Not that employers don't allowed to ask you because of 582 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: discriminatory likelihood, right, because of discriminatory uh, conclusions that can 583 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: be drawn from that information. However, if you volunteer the topic, 584 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: they can ask follow up questions. So don't you know 585 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: there is a case to be made. Don't put the 586 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: pta mentioned on your resume. And I it brings me 587 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: no great pleasure to say this, because I for moms 588 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: you've taken time off to you're kind of damned if 589 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: you do. Damn if you don't there because you want 590 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: to show some track record even when you're not working 591 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: for pay. Right, but there is a clear case to 592 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: be made to not mention motherhood status. And that does 593 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: mean it's it's concrete. You know, it's bad advice. It 594 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: doesn't feel it does feel like like you know, I 595 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: in my ideal world, both men and women employees are 596 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: able to show up to their workplace as their full selves, 597 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: as moms, as daughters, as caregivers, whoever they are, but 598 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: we that's not. We don't live in that world. We 599 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: don't yet, we will, we can, We can change things. 600 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: We should advocate and demand the policies that we mentioned 601 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: from our legislators, from our elected officials. We should put 602 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: pressure on the Trump administration clearly is talking about maternity leave, 603 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: but that's not good enough. In fact, that perpetuates really 604 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: negative stereotypes that can worsen the situation for women. So 605 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: we have to make the case for parental leave policies 606 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: that apply to both men and women, and really that 607 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: that takeaway for individual women. There's a flip side for men, 608 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: there is an argument to tell the men in your 609 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: lives and for our male listeners all of them, uh, 610 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: for the male listeners here, that there might be a 611 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: case to mention your family, as Brad the Boo did. 612 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: There might be a case to be made for for 613 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: actually not hiding the PTA status on your resume at all, 614 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: because you can actually experience a pay premium from it. 615 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,280 Speaker 1: And I'm I mean, get that get that money, people, 616 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: right like privilege it making this unjust system that we 617 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: all live under, making it work for you, right like, 618 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: there's no shame in it. It. Get your money, get 619 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: your money. I love it. I love it so not 620 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: that Yeah, I think I think there's there's there are 621 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: conclusions we can apply in our own lives, and and 622 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: I hope that we can change that advice really soon 623 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: for women. That we can also make sure that we 624 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: understand the women and with whom we work who are 625 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: moms are statistically likely to be as if not more 626 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: efficient than you, um, and that we should treat those 627 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: those people we work with who have kids with respect 628 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: to moms. Although you know, we should do an episode 629 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 1: on is something I hear a lot from single women 630 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: or childless workers that Yo, just because I don't have 631 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: a kid to go home, Oh my god, doesn't mean 632 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: I can work satory of my life, story of my life. 633 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: It's such a big deal. And I hear that from 634 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: and just because I don't have kids doesn't mean I 635 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: don't have stuff to do in my day or like 636 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: my yoga class is also important. I'm sorry, I yeah, 637 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: but also dinner matters, dinner with friends matters, and and 638 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: like yeah, just like my time is valuable. Yeah, but 639 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: that's person whether I have kids or not. Right, you 640 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: get it, right, So for now, I want to hear 641 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: from you. We want to hear from you the listener. 642 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 1: We want to hear from the mom's of stuff Mom 643 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: Never Told You. Has this experience been true for you? 644 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: Have you felt ever like your parental status has held 645 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 1: you back, has led you to being left out or 646 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: judged or less compensated in ways that are totally not fair? 647 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: And men, have you felt the effects of the fatherhood premium? 648 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: Have you gotten a bump in your paycheck when you 649 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: had children or if not, what has the experience been 650 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: like for you? And to our single listeners too, Yeah, 651 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: single ladies and also men, you want to hear from 652 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: you too, righte like, what are your perceptions of the 653 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: moms and dads in your workplace? How do you This 654 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: is all playing out, So make sure to tweet us 655 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: at Mom's Stuff podcast, snap us a pick on Instagram 656 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: at stuff I've Never Told You, And as always, we 657 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: love when you fill up our inbox with lots of 658 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: good ease, So send us a message at mom Stuff 659 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:28,879 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com