WEBVTT - Lawrence Wright and Sam Wasson: Two Unique Perspectives on Hollywood 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.640 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:07.600 Thing from I Heart Radio. This week we're featuring two 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:12.840 incredible authors, Sam Wasson, Observer of Hollywood and its artists, 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.880 and the Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker writer Lawrence Wright. 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:31.120 Here's my interview with Sam Wasson. From My guest today 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:35.760 is author Sam Wasson. Whether he's writing about directors such 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:40.000 as Blake Edwards, Paul Mazerski, or the history of improv, 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:45.640 a consistent theme running through Wasson's books is the perseverance 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:51.240 and talent required to make art in Hollywood. His latest book, 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:56.279 The Big Goodbye, is about the seminal film Chinatown. How 0:00:56.320 --> 0:01:00.360 Much You Were? How Much you Want? I just want 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:03.760 to know what you're worth? Over ten millions? Yes? Why 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:06.520 are you doing it? How much better can you eat? 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.600 What can you buy that you can't already afford? The future? 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:19.039 Mr Gitts the future. This is the love theme from 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:26.000 Chinatown by the film's composer Jerry Goldsmith. In The Big Goodbye, 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:29.920 Wasson chronicles the friendships of the four men at the 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:34.880 heart of the nineteen four classic producer Robert Evans, screenwriter 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:40.280 Robert Town, director Roman Polanski, and the movie star Jack Nicholson, 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.840 and what was at stake for each one in making 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:48.440 this definitive film. Sam Wasson grew up in Los Angeles 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.440 and fell in love with the movies. Early on. I 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:55.040 was a movie love. It was actually Bullets over Broadway. 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.880 I went nuts. I thought, oh, film is not just 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:04.160 dialogue and performance. It's visual component. It's a complete sensual experience. 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.639 That Bullets was so beautiful and so funny. It knocked 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:09.240 me out when I saw it. That was the end. 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:12.160 It's the ultimate art form, combining all the other art forms. 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:17.160 You finished film school, yeah, USC First I went significantly. 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.240 I went to Wesleyan for film school in Connecticut and 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:24.200 studied with Janine Basinger, who's the Hollywood historian on the planet. 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:28.040 Knows more about Hollywood than anyone ever has I think 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.440 ever ever will have. And it's just obvious when you 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.480 talk to her, and she really teaches a tour theory 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.640 of Hollywood. So I got a deep, four year long 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:43.760 survey of the greatest and there was no deconstruction, there's 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:48.320 no you know, film theory. It's film as film. And 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:51.440 that was my film education. And then I went to 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.360 USC which was kind of a bust for what for 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:59.240 film production. I directed one film myself and I just 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.079 wouldn't say hate it, but I didn't care for at all. 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:06.679 You know, being responsible for cajoling the work, especially actors. 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:09.160 It's a lot of managing, isn't it. I mean it's 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:14.079 it's as a much managing as art. Whereas if you're acting, 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:16.720 or if you're starring, or if you're writing, there's very 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.360 little bullshit that you have to deal with. It's purer. 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.560 I think, well, when I was acting and mid that 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:26.240 I directed a film, I remember that when you're when 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:28.760 you make films and you're starring in films, you know, 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.760 years ago for me, you could be in your trailer 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:33.440 and they would knock on the door and say, well, 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.800 the producer I would like to talk to you, or 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.040 the head of the studio is here visiting, he'd like 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:40.560 to talk to you, and I'd say tell him I'm 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.640 asleep and just and you could hide in the trailer, 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:47.040 as opposed to when you're directing. You can't do that. 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.040 You can't. You have to. They come to work and 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.040 they're like, let's let's talk about how you're over over schedule. Here. 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.760 That's an amazing thing about directing is that you're you're 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:59.120 really in reality. You're interfacing with reality all the time, 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.360 and other art forms you don't. You can be in 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.040 your imagination, but when you're making a movie, there's so 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:06.800 much ship that you have to do. You're making a 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:10.240 building from scratch. So you finished, you did four years 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.360 at Wesleyan. Yeah, and then you wanted more film school. 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:15.480 And then I and everyone was said, oh, you want 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:17.880 to make movies, you gotta go to film school. You 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.680 gotta go to USC. And so I thought, oh, yeah, 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:22.560 at USC. Of course, that's where you know, you go 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.000 to Juilliard. If you want to do Lincoln Center, you 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.080 go to USC. If you want to do you know, 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.320 Man's Chinese. So Wesleyan was more film theory, and USC 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.000 it was about film production. Yeah, it was film study. 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.000 I mean it was filmed. It was watching movies and 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:40.440 talking about filmmaking. But at what point do you stop 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:42.200 and see you I don't think I'm gonna make movies. 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.359 Well I'm not totally convinced that I'm not going to, 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.240 but at that moment it was a combination of two things. 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:53.279 I looked around and I saw that my fellow classmates 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:58.599 were completely invested in the Hobbit thing, and I felt 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:03.040 instantly lonely and realized that I was experiencing a microcosm 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.680 of what it was gonna look like out in the 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.320 real working world. And I thought, you know, maybe the 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.960 Hollywood that I grew up in is no longer the Hollywood. 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:15.320 That is the Hollywood that I grew up outside of. 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:20.880 And I was right. And then the book thing just happened. 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.560 How it was actually Janine Basinger Wesley and said why 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:26.159 don't you write a book? I never thought of it. 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:28.680 And I picked Blake because I wanted to pick who 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.120 I thought was the greatest writer director of comedy alive 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:36.640 who had not been celebrated. Now Blake. My ex wife, 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.679 Kim Basinger did a man who loved women with Blake, 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.479 and that's when I first met Julie. And you know, 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:44.880 you're so right. I mean, he's so under a pre 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.960 I think Victor Victoria is one of the ten funniest 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.840 movies I've ever seen in my life. Ever. I love 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.400 Victor Victoria. I loved ten. I love a movie he 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:55.240 made that a lot of people probably don't know about, 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.800 called What Did You Do? In the War Daddy, Dick Sean, 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.800 Dick Sean, and Dick Sewn. I'll just say this, Dick 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.200 Seawn is a drag scene in the movie. I mean, 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.800 if I don't know what else you need, but but Blake, Blake. 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:14.760 I I always thought that Blake was people look at 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:19.440 slapstick somehow, with the exception of Chaplin, who is revered 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.640 as poetic because he is, everyone else looks at slapstick 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:26.719 as this low form. You know, slapstick is dumb, it's 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:30.000 for children, it's childish, And so I think Blake got 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:34.200 a bum rap because of that, and I wanted to 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.719 elevate him and say this is sophistic. Someone can fall 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.520 off a fucking chair and it's still be nol coward 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.400 and that's what Victor Victoria is. Okay, So then you 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:47.880 do after Blake your next book Fifth Avenue five AM. Yeah, 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:52.280 So fifthven and five M is your next books? Why Missurski, 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:54.000 what did he do to you that made you want 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:55.760 to write a home Because to write a book, as 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:57.640 you know, you spending a lot of time in your 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:01.880 life with that person. Yeah, Missouriski was just just love 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.720 for the work, enthusiasm for the man who I had 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:08.000 met a couple of times, and actually it ties to Blake. 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.200 As much as I loved the work, Blake left me 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:15.080 with such a scar in my heart. Why why he 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:22.600 personally was so sadistic to you? Yeah, sadistic to me, 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:25.240 and he was that way to you as his as 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.960 his boswell here it was astonishing. I was young. I 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:30.680 don't know. You could probably tell me how old I was. 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.440 I don't remember. I was young. And he would cancel 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:36.800 on me, and I'd be in the car on the 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:39.720 way over and he would cancel on me with not 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:43.080 giving any reason. And then he would call me up 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:44.760 and he would say, you know, get in the car, 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:46.600 come on over. And I would get in the car 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:48.960 and he would cancel on me. It was a real 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.760 dance of death. And I finally got in there a 0:07:53.800 --> 0:08:00.200 couple of times. But um, it was open hostility. It 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:05.040 was like nothing, and it was a real abusive codependent relationship. 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:09.480 So Missourski is platformed off of Blake. How why? Because 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:14.120 I we're getting into the therapy portion of the conversation. 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.920 But of course I blame myself for the way I was, 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.280 you know, and I guess I wanted to make sure 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.280 I knew how to do this, and then it wasn't 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.120 going wrong because of me. And so I wanted to 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.320 be with someone that I was comfortable with and obviously idolized, 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:33.120 and those two things dovetailed perfectly. And Paul was nothing 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.840 like Blake I take it. Oh, no, Missour's keys. You know, 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:40.360 it turns out people are like their movies. Blake edwards 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:45.319 movies are sadistic and we love them for it, and 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:49.880 Paul's movies are loving and warm and we love him 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:54.520 for it. But because comedy is finally about rage, to 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:58.560 find a nurturing director of comedy and Nichols wouldn't be 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:02.800 would qualify in this case is a rare thing. And 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:06.360 so I'm interested in funny people, and funny people and 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.960 good people don't always go together. So to find in 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:16.000 Missouriski funny and mench to the core was a beautiful 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.319 thing and is what what his movies are about. Wells 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.000 interesting you mentioned Nichols because Nichols is a very good example. 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.600 A lot of these big directors I worked with and 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:29.000 had very small parts, you know, Stone, Marty, Woody, Nichols. 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:30.800 I mean, I didn't have leading roles in these films. 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:32.480 And when I worked and I did the movie Working Girl, 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:34.600 one of the first films I did, and I worked 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.600 with Mike. You could tell that Mike was someone who 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.160 had come through a gauntlet. He had worked his way, 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:42.720 and I don't I don't mean this as a criticism. 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.120 He had come through a gauntlet where in the way 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.160 that you move through the film business, and you have 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.559 and Polanski reminds me of this as well in your book. 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:54.040 Mike was someone who had in the way that you 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:56.840 You'll take the good ideas wherever they come from. You'll 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.679 take the good advice wherever it comes from, and you're 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.800 going through the jungle if you will. And eventually you 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:04.880 realize that the person you can rely on, the person 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.679 has that typically not always maybe, but who typically has 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.480 the best ideas is yourself. And you grow to rely 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:13.920 on yourself and you don't want anybody to talk you 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.480 out of what you're keen on. That's improvising. That's because 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.439 Mike is an improviser. I mean, does that think that? 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:23.120 Why did you write that book? Why did you write 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:26.400 about improv Well? Two reasons. One, I do believe it 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:28.760 is the great American art form. I do believe that, 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:33.680 and the other reason I wanted to meet Elaine. I 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.720 wanted to know Elane. I wanted to celebrate Elane because 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:41.520 she created this. She's a national treasure. You're referring to 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:45.120 Elaine May. Yes, she is, as you know, you know, 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:47.840 tough to get a hold of. I wanted to do it. 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.080 I didn't do it, and my heart is still not whole. 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.000 There's still a dark Elaine part in the heart. It 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:59.400 belongs to her. Describe for me with the relationship between 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:00.880 you spend a good amount of time in the book, 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:04.360 and the relationship between Town and Polanski. So the film 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:08.560 of Chinatown, the shooting script, the scenes that were shot, 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:11.560 and I'm assuming that eventually a script is compiled and 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:14.920 is and is bound if you will, Then is the 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:19.120 shooting script is that more Polanski than Town? Well, Town 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:24.080 obviously generated it, and then Polanski for years he was 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.800 generating it. And Town is a very slow writer and 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.679 a very expansive writer. I mean he writes big and 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:36.440 then struggles to cut down to structure. So when Polanski 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.160 comes in in the last two or so weeks or 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.440 a month or whatever it was, Polanski really structures it. 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:47.280 So I guess the answer is yes. So the structure 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:52.680 is Roman, no question about it. But the material is Town. 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:58.200 Now Town who had his writing partner Edward Taylor? And 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.480 Taylor was someone described that relationship. Taylor was someone who 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.720 did a lot of work uncredited, I think nearly all 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:06.840 of it on Was he ever credited? Did you mention 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:08.439 that in the book? What did he get a credit anywhere? 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:11.720 And not on a Town movie? He got a credit, 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.200 a writing credit on a movie called w I Warshowski 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:20.040 Kathleen Turner picture. Edward Taylor got credited for that. Um, 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:23.640 but he never got a writing credit on a Robert 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.760 Town movie. UM, never wanted one. Why do you think 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.160 that is when you have a guy, here's four men 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:34.560 who are fairly um, I'm not obsessed with success, They're 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.880 obsessed with greatness, their legacy. I mean you could you 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:41.000 could find tune all four men. What did they had 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.040 something in common? But there was a little bit distinctive 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:46.000 what Nicholson wanted Evan so forth. But for Taylor to 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.800 be in the rooms with these people and writing these 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.080 seminal films, why do you think he didn't want any credit? 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.880 What was it about? Well, there's stated reasons and then 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:57.280 there's unstated reasons. And the stated reasons were, and this 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.760 is Taylor either from his own writing or or what 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.679 he told to other people, were one, he didn't want 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:06.439 to deal with the bullshit of show business. He just 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.960 wanted to punch in, punch out right the scenes, do 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.240 the creative work, and not have to deal with the 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.760 haggling of the negotiations and and egos and despair and 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.640 all that stuff that comes with having your name on something. 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.280 There's a certain amount of freedom that you get to say, 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:23.720 no one's going to know that I was here. So 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.600 there was that. Then there was the long term friendship 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.000 that he had with Town, going all the way back 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.240 to their years at Pomona when they were in college. 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.679 So he felt a kind of loyalty to Town, which 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:43.480 manifested as subordinating himself to Towns, you know, quite obvious 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:48.199 need to be a star. And then there were all 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:52.480 these speculative secret reasons about secrets that they might have 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.959 had on each other. Uh. Then there was of course 0:13:56.080 --> 0:14:00.200 Edwards alcoholism and Town really being a support to take aller, 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.559 you know, because Taylor got paid for this, and Taylor 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.719 in his heart really did believe, you know, these are 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.400 Towns movies which they were in so far as town 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:13.160 generated them, and I'm just helping Robert with his movie. 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.600 He convinced himself of that that it really was more town. 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:18.400 And also there are people like that who what they 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:20.400 convinced and they have a certain kind of personality. I've 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:22.960 known a couple of myself where through attitude is better 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.360 the crumbs off your table than nothing at all. That's it. 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.320 That's it. So there's deep pathological stuff that we can't 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:30.760 even get into. But that's the type that you're describing. 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:33.800 But the one thing that you see in this movie 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:38.960 is the death of that studio executive like Evans. You 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.000 mentioned a piece of very well known history, the advent 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.920 of Jaws and what Jaws does to marketing and films 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.720 and how the business old changes in the wake of that. 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.120 But you tell it so well, I mean, you tell 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.520 it really wonderful. You you make everybody really see the 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.000 impact that that once these guys knew there was big 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.760 money in them, there are hills. Everything changes. What was 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.000 it a about Evans that he wanted to have great 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.040 films that made money and one awards. He loved it. 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.560 He loved it, He loved show business, He loved movies, 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:14.920 he loved people, he loved talent. It's actually that simple. 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.080 I asked him this question. I said, Evans, is it 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:20.320 as simple as you bet on talent? Do you have 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:24.760 an easy job? And he said, you goddamn right. That 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:28.600 was and and and it's true. I mean, if you 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.760 have the courage, that's the question. Do you have the 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:38.040 courage to say, yes, I believe you are talented. Here's 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.440 the check. Then you're a great studio executive because even 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.200 if the movie fails, even if it is a steaming 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:49.400 piece of ship humiliation to everyone on the planet, at 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.560 least you go to bed thinking I picked a good guy. 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.640 I picked the right people to do that. That's a 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.880 pride that what executive can now go to sleep saying that? 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.480 You know the Evans is and you mentioned Zanek and 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:05.400 people like that who are running with the studios. Back then, 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:08.240 some of them were people who knew how to make movies. 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:11.360 But they knew people who knew how to make movies, 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:13.280 and they knew how to bring them together, and they 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.320 seduced them into communion to join them on this venture. Yes, 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.080 I mean Goldman's maxim turns out to be right. I 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:23.120 believe nobody does know anything. I believe nobody knows anything. 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.120 Those people who end up being the most successful are 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.520 the people who have the who are the strongest to 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:34.960 adhere to their great taste. And those guys Zane, all 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:41.160 those great guys had exactly that. Now, Evans, of course 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:43.240 you you you do a wonderful job in the book. 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.000 This is a prism through which you learn a lot 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.280 about the movie business, in the history of the movie business. 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.640 It's a great, great, great book. And you also learn 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:54.240 what a seminal year of this is in nineteen for 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.000 so many great movies. May and Evans is someone who 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:00.640 you know, is that white hot period in the seventies, 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.640 the studios are making Paint Your Wagon and Finnian's Rainbow 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.919 and all that stuff is tanking, and then along comes 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.080 and Robert Osborne said this to me when we co 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.280 hosted TCM together. He said, you know, I just hate 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.680 Easy Rider, because Easy Riders, the movie that comes along 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.359 and just changes everything. The movie is becomes so real 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.560 and so ugly and so and and and so nasty 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:26.000 and so and they're they're like documentaries. Nicholson becomes a star, 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:27.680 if you will, on the back of that movie. In 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:31.439 sixty nine let me get into the seventies and what happens, Well, 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:35.159 you know, just like Hollywood being Hollywood, Easy Rider is 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.920 a hit. So then they all fall over themselves trying 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:41.600 to get the next one now, unlike today where they 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.600 fall over themselves trying to get the next one. Back 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:50.280 then making a movie was relatively inexpensive enough that they 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:54.720 could understand the next one being well, let's try another 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.960 little movie based on a you know, based on a 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.000 couple of guys. You know, the modesty of the Easy 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:06.440 Rider project could be replicated, and that is a recipe 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.760 for creativity. And so that's what they did after that 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:15.440 absolutely cynical undertaking insofar as Hollywood is doing what it's 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:20.080 always done, But because the economics of the system are 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:24.120 conducive to creativity and the people calling the shots are 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:30.399 genuinely interested in art, it can flower Polanski's wife. He 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.400 makes the movie Rosemary's Baby, which I can't say enough 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:35.160 about that movie. And the more I watched that movie, 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.119 that's one of the ones I've downloaded on my computer 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:42.600 because of that remarkable balance he has. You have Ruth 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:45.760 Gordon in this like right up to her toes are 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:49.160 right on the line of camp in that, and yet 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:53.359 they're Sydney Blackmer playing her husband who's his velvety, and 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:57.959 the cast is Alicia Cook. You have the creepy and 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.560 the sour and the sweet and the yeared in the 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.399 pleasant everything harmony, and the same is true for this movie. 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:08.560 The same is true. Polanski is a master of casting master. 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:11.720 I'm so glad you brought definitely down to I mean, 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:16.080 who is Bert Young in Chinatown? Talk about juicy? I mean, 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:18.640 there's so it's an embarrassment of riches that we never 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.399 get The movie is so fertile in talent that we 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:26.560 never get down to the Bert Young of it all. Yeah, 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:30.280 we do obscure Bert Young. Diane Lad how about that 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:35.880 dead on the floor and just a perfect, perfect portrait 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:40.120 of a nervous actress all the way through performing, down 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:43.000 to the very end when he pulls out the sag card, 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:47.080 And that is an l that is also inside. That's 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:50.520 a little gift to an Angelino to see that, Oh yes, 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:52.960 she was an actress. Of course she was, And you 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:55.560 play it back in your mind and and the whole 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:59.639 psychology of the actress just kind of harmonizes with what 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:04.280 you've seen. Fucking Polanski casting that movie. I mean, how 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.600 do you do you can't tell. How do you teach 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:08.720 the ability to cast? That has to be one of 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:13.000 the things like like, yeah, you don't have you have 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:15.760 to have you have to sense that that person can 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.080 do even if you have to push them, even if 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.000 they have to dig down, you know, you know. Gary 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:26.240 Oldman became a star doing Sid Nancy. Gary Olden became 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.720 a star doing Sid Nancy and won an oscar playing Churchill. 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:33.040 Talk about that journey as an actor in terms of 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:37.200 the disposition of the character. Now, Polanski, his wife is killed, 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.080 he does Rosemary's Baby. It's it's released in sixty eight. 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.280 His wife is killed in sixty nine. He comes and 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:44.520 does this movie I guess in seventy three. It's released 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:48.479 in seventy four, correct, And what Polanski is showing up 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:52.240 now to shoot Chinatown? Which Polanski shows up Now he's changed, 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.919 how from the horrors of what happened to his wife. 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:59.200 He's been devastated, He's been devastated, and he's he left town. 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:04.080 And it should be said, not just because his wife 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.440 and child and friends were murdered by them, not just 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.240 because of the emotional residue of the grief but because 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:15.800 the town turned on him in a way, the town 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.720 in the panic around figuring out who the killer was. 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:25.480 We didn't know who the killer was. There was speculation that, well, 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:30.280 maybe it's Polanski. His movies are enough from you. I 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.879 learned that from your book. And it's a tribute to 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:40.679 his friends, Dick Silbert, Jack, Warren Batty Evans, the people 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:44.119 who were really his friends, who stuck by him and 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:47.280 supported him in that. I mean the grief to compound 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:50.879 on top of the grief, the paranoia of the town 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.040 closing in on you. I can't even make a word 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:56.120 to come out of that. We were They put him 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:58.120 back together again, so to speak, his friend, They put 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:01.320 him back together. He's got a bunch of friends. And 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:03.800 that's kind of also what this book is about, secretly 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:06.520 for me, is a good bunch of friends, because that's 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:10.119 what I dream of, That's what a good Hollywood should 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:13.159 feel like. One thing that was just really assaulted me 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:15.399 from the book was that idea that back then and 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:18.600 it never crossed my mind. It never occurred to me 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:22.880 that Polanski was someone who people he was a suspect 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:25.680 and some people's and now the whole and now the 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:27.720 whole town. The whole community lived in terror in the 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:30.199 way that lived in terror. And I should add to 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.600 compound to make this even fucking worse. He didn't know 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:38.119 who the killer was, so he's suspecting his friends. Maybe 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:40.959 it is Warren, Yes, maybe it is Warren. You know 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:43.360 he's trying to get sampled. What was he trying to get? 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:46.520 Like blood samples off of steering wheels in the carpeting 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.199 cars and all this ship. That's an amazing part of 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:52.520 the book. I mean, it's enough for an opera right there. 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:54.800 I mean people say it's a Greek tragedy, I mean 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:58.000 Roman Polanski. That's to say nothing of what we all 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:03.200 know is coming, but just that incident right there, unimaginable. 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:09.399 Author Sam Wasson, If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:12.720 friend and be sure to subscribe to Here's the Thing 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:17.120 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:21.439