1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Thing from I Heart Radio. This week we're featuring two 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: incredible authors, Sam Wasson, Observer of Hollywood and its artists, 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: and the Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker writer Lawrence Wright. 5 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: Here's my interview with Sam Wasson. From My guest today 6 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: is author Sam Wasson. Whether he's writing about directors such 7 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: as Blake Edwards, Paul Mazerski, or the history of improv, 8 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: a consistent theme running through Wasson's books is the perseverance 9 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: and talent required to make art in Hollywood. His latest book, 10 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: The Big Goodbye, is about the seminal film Chinatown. How 11 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: Much You Were? How Much you Want? I just want 12 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: to know what you're worth? Over ten millions? Yes? Why 13 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: are you doing it? How much better can you eat? 14 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: What can you buy that you can't already afford? The future? 15 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: Mr Gitts the future. This is the love theme from 16 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: Chinatown by the film's composer Jerry Goldsmith. In The Big Goodbye, 17 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: Wasson chronicles the friendships of the four men at the 18 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: heart of the nineteen four classic producer Robert Evans, screenwriter 19 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: Robert Town, director Roman Polanski, and the movie star Jack Nicholson, 20 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: and what was at stake for each one in making 21 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: this definitive film. Sam Wasson grew up in Los Angeles 22 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: and fell in love with the movies. Early on. I 23 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: was a movie love. It was actually Bullets over Broadway. 24 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: I went nuts. I thought, oh, film is not just 25 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: dialogue and performance. It's visual component. It's a complete sensual experience. 26 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,639 Speaker 1: That Bullets was so beautiful and so funny. It knocked 27 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: me out when I saw it. That was the end. 28 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: It's the ultimate art form, combining all the other art forms. 29 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: You finished film school, yeah, USC First I went significantly. 30 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: I went to Wesleyan for film school in Connecticut and 31 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: studied with Janine Basinger, who's the Hollywood historian on the planet. 32 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: Knows more about Hollywood than anyone ever has I think 33 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: ever ever will have. And it's just obvious when you 34 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: talk to her, and she really teaches a tour theory 35 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: of Hollywood. So I got a deep, four year long 36 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: survey of the greatest and there was no deconstruction, there's 37 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: no you know, film theory. It's film as film. And 38 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: that was my film education. And then I went to 39 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: USC which was kind of a bust for what for 40 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: film production. I directed one film myself and I just 41 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 1: wouldn't say hate it, but I didn't care for at all. 42 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,679 Speaker 1: You know, being responsible for cajoling the work, especially actors. 43 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: It's a lot of managing, isn't it. I mean it's 44 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 1: it's as a much managing as art. Whereas if you're acting, 45 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: or if you're starring, or if you're writing, there's very 46 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: little bullshit that you have to deal with. It's purer. 47 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: I think, well, when I was acting and mid that 48 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: I directed a film, I remember that when you're when 49 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: you make films and you're starring in films, you know, 50 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: years ago for me, you could be in your trailer 51 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: and they would knock on the door and say, well, 52 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: the producer I would like to talk to you, or 53 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: the head of the studio is here visiting, he'd like 54 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: to talk to you, and I'd say tell him I'm 55 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: asleep and just and you could hide in the trailer, 56 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: as opposed to when you're directing. You can't do that. 57 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: You can't. You have to. They come to work and 58 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: they're like, let's let's talk about how you're over over schedule. Here. 59 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: That's an amazing thing about directing is that you're you're 60 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: really in reality. You're interfacing with reality all the time, 61 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: and other art forms you don't. You can be in 62 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: your imagination, but when you're making a movie, there's so 63 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: much ship that you have to do. You're making a 64 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: building from scratch. So you finished, you did four years 65 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: at Wesleyan. Yeah, and then you wanted more film school. 66 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: And then I and everyone was said, oh, you want 67 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: to make movies, you gotta go to film school. You 68 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: gotta go to USC. And so I thought, oh, yeah, 69 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: at USC. Of course, that's where you know, you go 70 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: to Juilliard. If you want to do Lincoln Center, you 71 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: go to USC. If you want to do you know, 72 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: Man's Chinese. So Wesleyan was more film theory, and USC 73 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: it was about film production. Yeah, it was film study. 74 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: I mean it was filmed. It was watching movies and 75 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: talking about filmmaking. But at what point do you stop 76 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: and see you I don't think I'm gonna make movies. 77 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: Well I'm not totally convinced that I'm not going to, 78 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: but at that moment it was a combination of two things. 79 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: I looked around and I saw that my fellow classmates 80 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: were completely invested in the Hobbit thing, and I felt 81 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: instantly lonely and realized that I was experiencing a microcosm 82 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: of what it was gonna look like out in the 83 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: real working world. And I thought, you know, maybe the 84 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: Hollywood that I grew up in is no longer the Hollywood. 85 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: That is the Hollywood that I grew up outside of. 86 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: And I was right. And then the book thing just happened. 87 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: How it was actually Janine Basinger Wesley and said why 88 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: don't you write a book? I never thought of it. 89 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: And I picked Blake because I wanted to pick who 90 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: I thought was the greatest writer director of comedy alive 91 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: who had not been celebrated. Now Blake. My ex wife, 92 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,679 Speaker 1: Kim Basinger did a man who loved women with Blake, 93 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: and that's when I first met Julie. And you know, 94 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: you're so right. I mean, he's so under a pre 95 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: I think Victor Victoria is one of the ten funniest 96 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: movies I've ever seen in my life. Ever. I love 97 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: Victor Victoria. I loved ten. I love a movie he 98 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: made that a lot of people probably don't know about, 99 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: called What Did You Do? In the War Daddy, Dick Sean, 100 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: Dick Sean, and Dick Sewn. I'll just say this, Dick 101 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: Seawn is a drag scene in the movie. I mean, 102 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: if I don't know what else you need, but but Blake, Blake. 103 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: I I always thought that Blake was people look at 104 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: slapstick somehow, with the exception of Chaplin, who is revered 105 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: as poetic because he is, everyone else looks at slapstick 106 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: as this low form. You know, slapstick is dumb, it's 107 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: for children, it's childish, And so I think Blake got 108 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: a bum rap because of that, and I wanted to 109 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: elevate him and say this is sophistic. Someone can fall 110 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: off a fucking chair and it's still be nol coward 111 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: and that's what Victor Victoria is. Okay, So then you 112 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: do after Blake your next book Fifth Avenue five AM. Yeah, 113 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: So fifthven and five M is your next books? Why Missurski, 114 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: what did he do to you that made you want 115 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: to write a home Because to write a book, as 116 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: you know, you spending a lot of time in your 117 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: life with that person. Yeah, Missouriski was just just love 118 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: for the work, enthusiasm for the man who I had 119 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: met a couple of times, and actually it ties to Blake. 120 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: As much as I loved the work, Blake left me 121 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: with such a scar in my heart. Why why he 122 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: personally was so sadistic to you? Yeah, sadistic to me, 123 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: and he was that way to you as his as 124 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: his boswell here it was astonishing. I was young. I 125 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: don't know. You could probably tell me how old I was. 126 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: I don't remember. I was young. And he would cancel 127 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: on me, and I'd be in the car on the 128 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: way over and he would cancel on me with not 129 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: giving any reason. And then he would call me up 130 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: and he would say, you know, get in the car, 131 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: come on over. And I would get in the car 132 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: and he would cancel on me. It was a real 133 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: dance of death. And I finally got in there a 134 00:07:53,800 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: couple of times. But um, it was open hostility. It 135 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: was like nothing, and it was a real abusive codependent relationship. 136 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: So Missourski is platformed off of Blake. How why? Because 137 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: I we're getting into the therapy portion of the conversation. 138 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: But of course I blame myself for the way I was, 139 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: you know, and I guess I wanted to make sure 140 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: I knew how to do this, and then it wasn't 141 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: going wrong because of me. And so I wanted to 142 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: be with someone that I was comfortable with and obviously idolized, 143 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: and those two things dovetailed perfectly. And Paul was nothing 144 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: like Blake I take it. Oh, no, Missour's keys. You know, 145 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: it turns out people are like their movies. Blake edwards 146 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: movies are sadistic and we love them for it, and 147 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: Paul's movies are loving and warm and we love him 148 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: for it. But because comedy is finally about rage, to 149 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: find a nurturing director of comedy and Nichols wouldn't be 150 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: would qualify in this case is a rare thing. And 151 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: so I'm interested in funny people, and funny people and 152 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: good people don't always go together. So to find in 153 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: Missouriski funny and mench to the core was a beautiful 154 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: thing and is what what his movies are about. Wells 155 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: interesting you mentioned Nichols because Nichols is a very good example. 156 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: A lot of these big directors I worked with and 157 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: had very small parts, you know, Stone, Marty, Woody, Nichols. 158 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't have leading roles in these films. 159 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: And when I worked and I did the movie Working Girl, 160 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: one of the first films I did, and I worked 161 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: with Mike. You could tell that Mike was someone who 162 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: had come through a gauntlet. He had worked his way, 163 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: and I don't I don't mean this as a criticism. 164 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: He had come through a gauntlet where in the way 165 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: that you move through the film business, and you have 166 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: and Polanski reminds me of this as well in your book. 167 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: Mike was someone who had in the way that you 168 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: You'll take the good ideas wherever they come from. You'll 169 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: take the good advice wherever it comes from, and you're 170 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: going through the jungle if you will. And eventually you 171 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: realize that the person you can rely on, the person 172 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: has that typically not always maybe, but who typically has 173 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: the best ideas is yourself. And you grow to rely 174 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: on yourself and you don't want anybody to talk you 175 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: out of what you're keen on. That's improvising. That's because 176 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 1: Mike is an improviser. I mean, does that think that? 177 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: Why did you write that book? Why did you write 178 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: about improv Well? Two reasons. One, I do believe it 179 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: is the great American art form. I do believe that, 180 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: and the other reason I wanted to meet Elaine. I 181 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: wanted to know Elane. I wanted to celebrate Elane because 182 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: she created this. She's a national treasure. You're referring to 183 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: Elaine May. Yes, she is, as you know, you know, 184 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: tough to get a hold of. I wanted to do it. 185 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: I didn't do it, and my heart is still not whole. 186 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: There's still a dark Elaine part in the heart. It 187 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: belongs to her. Describe for me with the relationship between 188 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: you spend a good amount of time in the book, 189 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: and the relationship between Town and Polanski. So the film 190 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: of Chinatown, the shooting script, the scenes that were shot, 191 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: and I'm assuming that eventually a script is compiled and 192 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: is and is bound if you will, Then is the 193 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: shooting script is that more Polanski than Town? Well, Town 194 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: obviously generated it, and then Polanski for years he was 195 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: generating it. And Town is a very slow writer and 196 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: a very expansive writer. I mean he writes big and 197 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: then struggles to cut down to structure. So when Polanski 198 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: comes in in the last two or so weeks or 199 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: a month or whatever it was, Polanski really structures it. 200 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: So I guess the answer is yes. So the structure 201 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: is Roman, no question about it. But the material is Town. 202 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: Now Town who had his writing partner Edward Taylor? And 203 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: Taylor was someone described that relationship. Taylor was someone who 204 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: did a lot of work uncredited, I think nearly all 205 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: of it on Was he ever credited? Did you mention 206 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: that in the book? What did he get a credit anywhere? 207 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: And not on a Town movie? He got a credit, 208 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: a writing credit on a movie called w I Warshowski 209 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: Kathleen Turner picture. Edward Taylor got credited for that. Um, 210 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: but he never got a writing credit on a Robert 211 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: Town movie. UM, never wanted one. Why do you think 212 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: that is when you have a guy, here's four men 213 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: who are fairly um, I'm not obsessed with success, They're 214 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: obsessed with greatness, their legacy. I mean you could you 215 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: could find tune all four men. What did they had 216 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: something in common? But there was a little bit distinctive 217 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: what Nicholson wanted Evan so forth. But for Taylor to 218 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: be in the rooms with these people and writing these 219 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: seminal films, why do you think he didn't want any credit? 220 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: What was it about? Well, there's stated reasons and then 221 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: there's unstated reasons. And the stated reasons were, and this 222 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: is Taylor either from his own writing or or what 223 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: he told to other people, were one, he didn't want 224 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 1: to deal with the bullshit of show business. He just 225 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: wanted to punch in, punch out right the scenes, do 226 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: the creative work, and not have to deal with the 227 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: haggling of the negotiations and and egos and despair and 228 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: all that stuff that comes with having your name on something. 229 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: There's a certain amount of freedom that you get to say, 230 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: no one's going to know that I was here. So 231 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: there was that. Then there was the long term friendship 232 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: that he had with Town, going all the way back 233 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: to their years at Pomona when they were in college. 234 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: So he felt a kind of loyalty to Town, which 235 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: manifested as subordinating himself to Towns, you know, quite obvious 236 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: need to be a star. And then there were all 237 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: these speculative secret reasons about secrets that they might have 238 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 1: had on each other. Uh. Then there was of course 239 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: Edwards alcoholism and Town really being a support to take aller, 240 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 1: you know, because Taylor got paid for this, and Taylor 241 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,719 Speaker 1: in his heart really did believe, you know, these are 242 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: Towns movies which they were in so far as town 243 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: generated them, and I'm just helping Robert with his movie. 244 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: He convinced himself of that that it really was more town. 245 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: And also there are people like that who what they 246 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: convinced and they have a certain kind of personality. I've 247 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: known a couple of myself where through attitude is better 248 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: the crumbs off your table than nothing at all. That's it. 249 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: That's it. So there's deep pathological stuff that we can't 250 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: even get into. But that's the type that you're describing. 251 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: But the one thing that you see in this movie 252 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: is the death of that studio executive like Evans. You 253 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: mentioned a piece of very well known history, the advent 254 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: of Jaws and what Jaws does to marketing and films 255 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: and how the business old changes in the wake of that. 256 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: But you tell it so well, I mean, you tell 257 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: it really wonderful. You you make everybody really see the 258 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: impact that that once these guys knew there was big 259 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: money in them, there are hills. Everything changes. What was 260 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: it a about Evans that he wanted to have great 261 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: films that made money and one awards. He loved it. 262 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: He loved it, He loved show business, He loved movies, 263 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: he loved people, he loved talent. It's actually that simple. 264 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: I asked him this question. I said, Evans, is it 265 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: as simple as you bet on talent? Do you have 266 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: an easy job? And he said, you goddamn right. That 267 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: was and and and it's true. I mean, if you 268 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: have the courage, that's the question. Do you have the 269 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: courage to say, yes, I believe you are talented. Here's 270 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: the check. Then you're a great studio executive because even 271 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: if the movie fails, even if it is a steaming 272 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: piece of ship humiliation to everyone on the planet, at 273 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: least you go to bed thinking I picked a good guy. 274 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: I picked the right people to do that. That's a 275 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: pride that what executive can now go to sleep saying that? 276 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: You know the Evans is and you mentioned Zanek and 277 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: people like that who are running with the studios. Back then, 278 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: some of them were people who knew how to make movies. 279 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: But they knew people who knew how to make movies, 280 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: and they knew how to bring them together, and they 281 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: seduced them into communion to join them on this venture. Yes, 282 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: I mean Goldman's maxim turns out to be right. I 283 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: believe nobody does know anything. I believe nobody knows anything. 284 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: Those people who end up being the most successful are 285 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: the people who have the who are the strongest to 286 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: adhere to their great taste. And those guys Zane, all 287 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: those great guys had exactly that. Now, Evans, of course 288 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: you you you do a wonderful job in the book. 289 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: This is a prism through which you learn a lot 290 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: about the movie business, in the history of the movie business. 291 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: It's a great, great, great book. And you also learn 292 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: what a seminal year of this is in nineteen for 293 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: so many great movies. May and Evans is someone who 294 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: you know, is that white hot period in the seventies, 295 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 1: the studios are making Paint Your Wagon and Finnian's Rainbow 296 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: and all that stuff is tanking, and then along comes 297 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: and Robert Osborne said this to me when we co 298 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: hosted TCM together. He said, you know, I just hate 299 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: Easy Rider, because Easy Riders, the movie that comes along 300 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: and just changes everything. The movie is becomes so real 301 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: and so ugly and so and and and so nasty 302 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: and so and they're they're like documentaries. Nicholson becomes a star, 303 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: if you will, on the back of that movie. In 304 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: sixty nine let me get into the seventies and what happens, Well, 305 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: you know, just like Hollywood being Hollywood, Easy Rider is 306 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: a hit. So then they all fall over themselves trying 307 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: to get the next one now, unlike today where they 308 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: fall over themselves trying to get the next one. Back 309 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: then making a movie was relatively inexpensive enough that they 310 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: could understand the next one being well, let's try another 311 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: little movie based on a you know, based on a 312 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: couple of guys. You know, the modesty of the Easy 313 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: Rider project could be replicated, and that is a recipe 314 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: for creativity. And so that's what they did after that 315 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: absolutely cynical undertaking insofar as Hollywood is doing what it's 316 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: always done, But because the economics of the system are 317 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: conducive to creativity and the people calling the shots are 318 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: genuinely interested in art, it can flower Polanski's wife. He 319 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: makes the movie Rosemary's Baby, which I can't say enough 320 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: about that movie. And the more I watched that movie, 321 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: that's one of the ones I've downloaded on my computer 322 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: because of that remarkable balance he has. You have Ruth 323 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: Gordon in this like right up to her toes are 324 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: right on the line of camp in that, and yet 325 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: they're Sydney Blackmer playing her husband who's his velvety, and 326 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,959 Speaker 1: the cast is Alicia Cook. You have the creepy and 327 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: the sour and the sweet and the yeared in the 328 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: pleasant everything harmony, and the same is true for this movie. 329 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: The same is true. Polanski is a master of casting master. 330 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you brought definitely down to I mean, 331 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: who is Bert Young in Chinatown? Talk about juicy? I mean, 332 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: there's so it's an embarrassment of riches that we never 333 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: get The movie is so fertile in talent that we 334 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: never get down to the Bert Young of it all. Yeah, 335 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: we do obscure Bert Young. Diane Lad how about that 336 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: dead on the floor and just a perfect, perfect portrait 337 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: of a nervous actress all the way through performing, down 338 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: to the very end when he pulls out the sag card, 339 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: And that is an l that is also inside. That's 340 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: a little gift to an Angelino to see that, Oh yes, 341 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: she was an actress. Of course she was, And you 342 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: play it back in your mind and and the whole 343 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: psychology of the actress just kind of harmonizes with what 344 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: you've seen. Fucking Polanski casting that movie. I mean, how 345 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: do you do you can't tell. How do you teach 346 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: the ability to cast? That has to be one of 347 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: the things like like, yeah, you don't have you have 348 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: to have you have to sense that that person can 349 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: do even if you have to push them, even if 350 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: they have to dig down, you know, you know. Gary 351 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: Oldman became a star doing Sid Nancy. Gary Olden became 352 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: a star doing Sid Nancy and won an oscar playing Churchill. 353 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: Talk about that journey as an actor in terms of 354 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: the disposition of the character. Now, Polanski, his wife is killed, 355 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: he does Rosemary's Baby. It's it's released in sixty eight. 356 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: His wife is killed in sixty nine. He comes and 357 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: does this movie I guess in seventy three. It's released 358 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,479 Speaker 1: in seventy four, correct, And what Polanski is showing up 359 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 1: now to shoot Chinatown? Which Polanski shows up Now he's changed, 360 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: how from the horrors of what happened to his wife. 361 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: He's been devastated, He's been devastated, and he's he left town. 362 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: And it should be said, not just because his wife 363 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: and child and friends were murdered by them, not just 364 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: because of the emotional residue of the grief but because 365 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: the town turned on him in a way, the town 366 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: in the panic around figuring out who the killer was. 367 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: We didn't know who the killer was. There was speculation that, well, 368 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: maybe it's Polanski. His movies are enough from you. I 369 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: learned that from your book. And it's a tribute to 370 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: his friends, Dick Silbert, Jack, Warren Batty Evans, the people 371 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: who were really his friends, who stuck by him and 372 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: supported him in that. I mean the grief to compound 373 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: on top of the grief, the paranoia of the town 374 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: closing in on you. I can't even make a word 375 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: to come out of that. We were They put him 376 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: back together again, so to speak, his friend, They put 377 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: him back together. He's got a bunch of friends. And 378 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: that's kind of also what this book is about, secretly 379 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: for me, is a good bunch of friends, because that's 380 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: what I dream of, That's what a good Hollywood should 381 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: feel like. One thing that was just really assaulted me 382 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: from the book was that idea that back then and 383 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: it never crossed my mind. It never occurred to me 384 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: that Polanski was someone who people he was a suspect 385 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: and some people's and now the whole and now the 386 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: whole town. The whole community lived in terror in the 387 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: way that lived in terror. And I should add to 388 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: compound to make this even fucking worse. He didn't know 389 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: who the killer was, so he's suspecting his friends. Maybe 390 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,959 Speaker 1: it is Warren, Yes, maybe it is Warren. You know 391 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 1: he's trying to get sampled. What was he trying to get? 392 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: Like blood samples off of steering wheels in the carpeting 393 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: cars and all this ship. That's an amazing part of 394 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: the book. I mean, it's enough for an opera right there. 395 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: I mean people say it's a Greek tragedy, I mean 396 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: Roman Polanski. That's to say nothing of what we all 397 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: know is coming, but just that incident right there, unimaginable. 398 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: Author Sam Wasson, If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a 399 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: friend and be sure to subscribe to Here's the Thing 400 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever 401 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. When we come back, Wasson talks 402 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: about the reception of the film's shocking ending and it's 403 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: remarkable score. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to 404 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing Because Chinatown was Jack Nicholson's first real 405 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: turn as a leading man. He paid attention to every 406 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: last detail, down to his wardrobe, to inhabit Jake Giddis. 407 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: I mean it was deep in him too, because Town 408 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: wrote it for him. Town observed Nicholson. They were in 409 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: Jeff Corey's acting class, and and improvised improvisation was heavy 410 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: in that class. And so Jack is a great improviser. 411 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: So Town really became a master of Jack, whatever that means, 412 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 1: and so learned learned how to just hit it right 413 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: to him. Sometimes I think the guy that can nail 414 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: Chinatown and especially that ending and that in that last line, 415 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: the guy that can nail that ending you right with 416 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: great detail and great insight into the shooting of that 417 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: final scene and the car driving off in that long shot, 418 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: and the actor that pulls the gun and shoots her. 419 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: You know, they're the whole kind of existential on wi 420 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 1: of the whole thing. At the end, Uh, forget about it. 421 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: Jacob's Chinatown, I thought to myself, that's Polanski. In the 422 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: wake of his wife being butchered that way, Yes, like 423 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: his mother's killed. His father says to him, how you 424 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: have it in there? Move it, move it, the prompt 425 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 1: from the father, But you just keep moving, just keep moving. 426 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: And Polanski was certainly primed to nail because of all 427 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: the horrors he'd been through. And it's hard to imagine 428 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: a more horrific ending to a major Hollywood movie. It's 429 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: hard to imagine. And when the film was screened for 430 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: the executives, what was there you write about this? What 431 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: was their response to the film? You know, you tried 432 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: your best, Evans, you know, Sue Manger's was like, what 433 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: are you? What were you Connie? What were you thinking? 434 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: I can't do Sue, you can do it. You know, 435 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: they're filing out in the director's guilt. Um was it 436 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: Freddie Fields who had a sort of shiit eating grin 437 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: on his Freddie Freddie and Evans were never sympathical. But 438 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: then it got good reviews. Yeah, yeah, then it did well. 439 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: It did Yeah, and I won a lot of awards. 440 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: Jack didn't win. Jack didn't win. Jack didn't win. Who 441 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: won that? You? Oh? Oh? Art Carney arc from from Missourski, 442 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: from Missoursky, even Missoursky. When I Jack's oscar and hands 443 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: it not so fast, Jack hands it to Art Carney. Yeah. 444 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: I think even Paul was a little embarrassed of that 445 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: was it going in style. No, it was Harry, Uh huh. 446 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: Let's see Chinatown. Let's see Wow. Okay, it sounds like 447 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: an SETV sketch from the makers of Chinatown. From the 448 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: comes a story of a man and his cat. You know. 449 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: One of the things that I love the part of 450 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: the story because I'm obsessed with musical score. Describe how 451 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: there was the path with the score for Chinatown. One 452 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: composer who then what happens? His name was Philip Lambro, 453 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: and um, he wrote, I don't have the language to 454 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: even describe what music I mean. You can actually find 455 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: the score on YouTube. And it was an atonal, edgy, expressionistic, weird, 456 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: you know, not melodic, not what you think of his Hollywood, 457 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: certainly not what you think of his forties glamour Hollywood. 458 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: And it didn't work. And this was like in the 459 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: final moments before you know, scoring comes in at the 460 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: very end. And what happened was Evans called Goldsmith and 461 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: said you got to save my life and and Goldsmith 462 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: said all right. And ten days later and and ten 463 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: days sounds like a legend, you know, sounds like fable 464 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: fiction stuff. I got ten days confirmed all over the place. 465 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: It really was ten days. I mean, if it wasn't 466 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: ten it was eleven days. You know, he turned around 467 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: a masterpiece in no time. This is another reason why 468 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: Evans is Evans only people like Evans can pick up 469 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: the phone and get somebody like Goldsmith to write a 470 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: score for one of the greatest movies in the world 471 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: in ten eleven days or wherever the funk it is. 472 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: And it also tells you that Evans was beloved on 473 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: a personal level. Yes, you know you could make those calls. 474 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: You make those calls and someone says yes and turn 475 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: and turns it around, and Evans supervised the score. You know. 476 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 1: Music was so important to Evans, so important to Evans, 477 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: even though he's fucked up on on Godfather by not 478 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: you know, Nino wrote a pushing back on Rits. Okay, 479 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: But Evans loves music because he's finally in his heart 480 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: just a romantic and a softie. And also music is 481 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: a major part of post production, and that's where Evans 482 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: can come in and get his hands in there. Sometimes 483 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: he gets his hands a little too much in there, 484 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: as as as copal and Knows and suffered by but 485 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: that's the shadow side of Evans. But music allows him 486 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: to allow him to do that. Author Sam Wasson, and 487 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: now from our archives, my interview with Lawrence Right from 488 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen, My guest today. Author Lawrence Right thinks 489 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: a lot about religion. He wants to know why people 490 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,959 Speaker 1: choose one faith over another, especially when what they choose 491 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: seems quote absurd or dangerous to an outsider. This question 492 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: has led Right to investigate some of the world's most 493 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: complicated and secretive organizations, from the People's Temple in Jonestown 494 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: to the Church of Scientology. His book on Al Qaeda 495 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: won the Politz Surprise in two thousand seven. Lawrence Right 496 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: has a unique firsthand experience as to the power of belief. 497 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: I grew up in Dallas and the Methodist Church, and 498 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: there was despite the fact that Methodism doesn't have a 499 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: reputation as being kind of a you know, hell fire 500 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 1: and Brimstone, the first of the churches that we went 501 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: to in Dallas really was that. And then we graduated 502 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: to the Methodist Church downtown. My dad taught Sunday school 503 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: for many, many years. You know, Dallas back at that 504 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: time was the most pious city in America. We had 505 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: the largest Methodist Baptist I think, the largest Episcopal church 506 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: and one of the largest Catholic churches in the entire country. 507 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: And at the same time we had the highest murder 508 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: rate and the highest divorce rate, you know, all the 509 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:10,479 Speaker 1: things that go along with excessive piety. Yeah, so it 510 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: was and I was very pious as a teenager. I 511 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: was in a group called Young Life and m genuinely 512 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: or you were responding to pressure, No, I was. I was, well, 513 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: there was part of those things. It was you know, 514 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: I had moved around a lot as my dad was 515 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: a banker and we moved, uh, quite a lot, and 516 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: it was hard for me to establish roots. So when 517 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: I got to Dallas and this, you know, Young Life 518 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: came out. It was a social club for me. But 519 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: also it was the first time I understood the you 520 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: can binge yourself into the shape of the organization the 521 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: way it wants you to be. And also the more 522 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: pious you are, sort of the higher you climb, the 523 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: more important. So I got to be part of it. Yeah, 524 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: well you just say those things and it's and you 525 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: want to believe him. I was not consciously trying to 526 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: deceive anyone. At the same time, you know what to 527 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: say your your heartfelt, andy, but at the same time 528 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: you realize that there's there's an approval system here. Yeah, 529 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: and I think that that experience um was formative in 530 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: some ways for me to be so interested in religious 531 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: matters and why, you know, I people are always, you know, reporters, 532 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: especially fascinated by politics. But you can have strong political 533 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: views and it doesn't affect your life at all, But 534 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: if you have strong religious views, they probably dictate much 535 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: of your behavior. Is puzzling to me. Why with most 536 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: journalists it's just embarrassing to ask about what people believe 537 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: because it's not supposed to matter. Due to leave the 538 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: area to go to college, I went to Tulane in 539 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: New Orleans, which was a city least like Dallas that 540 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: I could find and you could buy beer and woolworth 541 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: and you could drink at eighteen and uh there you 542 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: know a lot of things of very pious theory. At 543 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: that time. I kind of shed that, but I was 544 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: actively looking for a way to live a more bohemian life. 545 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: I felt very constricted in Dallas. Was writing something that 546 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: was on your mind even at an early age. Yeah, Yeah, 547 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: I took a creative writing class, you know, I was 548 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: not a discissed school paper. Now. I used to like 549 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: doing that stuff though. And then um, after I graduated, Um, 550 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: you know, the Venom War was going on, and uh, 551 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: I became a conscientious objector and spent two years of 552 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: alternative service teaching in Cairo. And that's where I became 553 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: involved for the first time with the Arab world. And 554 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: when the boy from Dallas becomes a conscientious objector, how 555 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: did that go off? Back home? You know, I my 556 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: dad was a war hero, and I wanted to be 557 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,239 Speaker 1: like him. I was in our otc. I expected, you know, 558 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: to to follow in his footsteps. But you know, there 559 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: was this parallel problem going on, which was the Vietnam War, 560 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: which was despicable different and it was. It was a 561 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: bad war. And you know, for a person, a young 562 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: man like me who wanted to serve his country but 563 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: did not want to kill people for the wrong reason 564 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: or risk my life for something I didn't believe in, 565 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: it just was a terrible My father and I had horrible, 566 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: horrible fights about Vietnam. Do you have any brothers? No, 567 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: I had two younger sisters, so you were you were 568 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: the scion. Did you ever make peace with him? About that. Yeah, 569 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: you know, I wrote a memoir about growing up in 570 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: Dallas during the Kennedy assassination and in America during the 571 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: Vietnam Era. And in the process of doing that, I 572 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: talked to my parents a lot, and I let them 573 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: read the manuscript and it was a very healing experience 574 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: for all of us. I think I first became familiar 575 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: with you, and you're writing in the Olympia Washington story. 576 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: He was entitled Remembering Satan, which you wrote as a 577 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: book as well. These were excerpts in the book. There 578 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: was a two part lengthy excerpt in the edition of 579 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: The New Yorker. And I first became familiar with you. 580 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: And I mean I was just supposed, you know, like 581 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: knocked out by this piece. I thought, you know, how 582 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: on earth is this possible? Had you written pieces like that, 583 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: I mean the scientology piece, the book and Going Clear, 584 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: which we're gonna get to that obviously, and this piece, uh, 585 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: there's uh, there's some fascinating people either putting themselves or 586 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: putting other people through some living hell. Here was this 587 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: the first such piece you wrote? The Olympia piece. No, 588 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: I think I had written about you know, a lot 589 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: of different even wrote about Satanists and you know, people 590 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: of all sorts of I mean, if you're a reporter 591 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: and you have a passport to write about anybody, um, 592 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: and I took full advantage of that. But that remembering 593 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: satan is kind of uh stereotypical type of article that 594 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: I like to write about, which is um. For one thing, 595 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: it's a discreet world. You know, in this case, it 596 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,879 Speaker 1: was you know, this world inside Olympia, Washington that had 597 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: been infected by these hysterical memories of Satanic ritual abuse 598 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: which never occurred. But a man was convicted of these crimes. 599 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 1: He confessed to them because he remembered them, and there 600 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: was other than his memory. There was no evidence, if 601 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, no one else was sentenced to prison. 602 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: Only Paul went to prison. What's this relationship with his 603 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: family now? Or do you even know? It's very broken 604 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: as far as I haven't talked to Paul in a 605 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: couple of years. But you know he's married again. You know, 606 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: he's he started another life. And but you know, it's 607 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: an example of how the mind can be so persuaded 608 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: of you know, a fall reality that and I think 609 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: everybody is capable of that. I don't you want to 610 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 1: know if I would say that not capable of that, 611 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: but creating a false reality. One of the things that 612 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: has been an education to me as a reporter when 613 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: I'm out interviewing people that have been, for instance, in 614 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: al Qaeda or you know, people that have come out 615 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 1: of you know, I've interviewed the children of Jim Jones, 616 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: and you know, as talk to people who went into scientology, 617 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: they're not crazy people. Then they're not stupid, and you 618 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: know they're they're often you know, if there's a commonality, 619 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,879 Speaker 1: there's idealism. Uh, you know, they're a longing to make, 620 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 1: you know, change history, makes something of yourself and uh 621 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 1: that's you know, maybe that's one of the most dangerous 622 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: elements of our human nature, is that we it's the 623 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,760 Speaker 1: better parts of our nature that sometimes lead us into 624 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: real dangerous areas. With the better parts of the natures 625 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: of Jones is children, Well, you know they were they 626 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: were essentially captive to him. So but and they survived, 627 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 1: thank god. They were all playing basketball in a tournament 628 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: and Georgetown, Guiana, so they weren't a killing when the 629 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: killings went down. But the it's always to me, it 630 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: is always uh underscored the danger of these kinds of 631 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: fanatical belief systems. Uh. There were these three boys U 632 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: two adopted. UH. Stephen was a natural son and he 633 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: looked very much like his father, Jim Jones, with the 634 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: kind of Cherokee cheek bones. And he's very tall and striking, 635 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: handsome man. And M. Then there was Jim Jones Jr. 636 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: Who was black. UM and Uh adopted. And then the 637 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: third adopted son was Tim. Who is this big red 638 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: headed guy. Tim. These boys when I talked to him, 639 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: Waco was going on at that time, the Branch Davidian episode, 640 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 1: and Tina Brown was the editor of the New Yorker, 641 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: and she wanted me to go to Waco. And I said, 642 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: they're more reporters and Waco than there are Branch Davidians. 643 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: I just but I was. I was convinced that this 644 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: must you know, I had seen the children, some of 645 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: the children that were sent out. I thought that must 646 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: have happened before. And I found these three boys who 647 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: had never then grown men, never told their story before. 648 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: And I don't know why they were willing to talk 649 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: to me. But Tim, when I got to him, UH, 650 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: he's he demanded that we do it in a restaurant, 651 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: in a public place, because he didn't want to cry, 652 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: and he had never told his wife, his current wife, 653 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: what had happened. Man, he wanted to say this story 654 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: one time. Now, bear in mind, Tim Jones is a 655 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: massive fellow. He can he can press a hundred pounds 656 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 1: with either arm. You know, he is a immense physical presence. 657 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: And we went to the restaurant and within a few 658 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: minutes he was pounding the table and sobbing because Tim 659 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,280 Speaker 1: is the one who had to go into the jungle 660 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: and identify nine people his real parents, his adoptive parents, 661 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: his wife at the time, and his children, everybody lying 662 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: on the ground and U It makes an impression. Did 663 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: he ever confide to you or or even just discussed 664 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: to you what he thought was going on there? What 665 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: he thought? Joy? They all knew that their dad was 666 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: crazy and that he had what was he doing there? 667 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: You know, he was giving these suicide drills regularly. You know, 668 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 1: they break out the what was the purpose of jonestown? 669 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,720 Speaker 1: Oh well, they stated purpose was two they were Jones 670 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 1: was intensely paranoid. He had the feeling that the government 671 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: was persecuting him, which was not really true. At all 672 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: but one night, the entire which disappeared. You know, they 673 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: all went secretly to this little South American country with it, 674 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,320 Speaker 1: you know, in the in the middle of the jungle. 675 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: They've been preparing it, the boys. Yeah, and it was 676 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: just a you know, it's like a you know, a 677 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 1: little summer camp type of thing. They built quanset huts 678 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,919 Speaker 1: and so on, and they were living near a river 679 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: and they built an air strip. I remember reading on 680 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: this thing online where they said that Jonestown was this 681 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,399 Speaker 1: training ground where they were breading MK ultra operatives who 682 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 1: were capable of committing murder on behalf of the government 683 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 1: and then they'd have a memory of it. Well, you know, 684 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,399 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that that's true, but I remember reading 685 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,280 Speaker 1: that once. I was fast when I was writing about 686 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: remembering Satan, when I was doing the you know, the 687 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: multiple personalities were supposed to be the product of Satanic 688 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 1: ritual abuse, and there was a big rise in multiple 689 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: personality disorder, and one of the theories was that the 690 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: multiples had been created by the CIA in order that 691 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: one personality could become a spy and you know, deliver 692 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,760 Speaker 1: messages that other personalities inside the same human being wouldn't 693 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: know about Lawrence, writes New Yorker article The Orphans of Jonestown, 694 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: came out for the fifteenth anniversary of the V eight 695 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: massacre that killed over nine people. Listen to more conversations 696 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 1: with writers who take on complicated issues, like David Simon, 697 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: who wrote the TV show The Wire but started out 698 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: as a beat reporter for the Baltimore Sun. I think 699 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: it was very fair as a reporter. You know, some 700 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: of poverty is about personal responsibility, and some of it 701 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: is not. Some of it is systemic and a result 702 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: of societal forces that are profound. Take a listen in 703 00:41:43,320 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: our archives that here's the thing dot Org. This is 704 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin. You're listening to. Here's the thing. My guest. 705 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: Lawrence Wright prefers taking notes on index cards over using 706 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: a computer. You can only imagine the number of cards 707 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 1: right used for his book Going Clear, Scientology, Hollywood, and 708 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: the Prison of Belief. After it was published in two 709 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,840 Speaker 1: thousand thirteen, documentary filmmaker Alex Gibney asked right if he 710 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: considered an adaptation. We'd worked together before. You know, I 711 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: had done this book about al Qaeda called The Looming Tower, 712 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: and I had just my little acting venture. I Um, 713 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 1: I didn't more travel with it. You know, I just 714 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,879 Speaker 1: hate touring, you know, doing the book tour thing. Yeah. 715 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: I had seen Anna Davere Smith do fires in the 716 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: mirror at the Public Theater and I was the first 717 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 1: time I could see the journalism and he could be married. 718 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,879 Speaker 1: And I fascinated by that. So I did a one 719 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: man show called My Trip to al Qaeda, and I 720 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: did it off Broadway for about six weeks and in 721 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 1: a few other cities, and Alex saw me do it 722 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: in Washington. We decided to make it into a documentary, 723 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: which we did for HBO. We hit it off. Alex 724 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: Is is a is a his nickname from childhood as 725 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,279 Speaker 1: Tiger and his well chosen name. And he's a very 726 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: skillful storyteller. And it takes those qualities to take something 727 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: as complicated about an organization as vindictive and litigious as 728 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 1: the Church of Scientology. It takes somebody like Alex to 729 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: put together a movie like he's just done. One of 730 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: the things I thought when I saw the film, and 731 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 1: I mean all my friends and people who know me personally, Uh, 732 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,360 Speaker 1: it wasn't lost to my friends with it. About a 733 00:43:58,360 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: week after that I was back on a plane to 734 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: London to go shoot a film with Tom Cruise. And 735 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 1: Tom is a friend of mine, and um, I mean 736 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 1: I consider him a friend in the business sense, but 737 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: we don't get to see each other then often. But 738 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 1: he's always very kind and as people who know Tom know, 739 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: he's a great person to be in the trenches of 740 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: movie making with. He's very hard working and very very 741 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,840 Speaker 1: um passionate about the work. But when I saw the film, 742 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: one thing I didn't get And maybe it's there, maybe 743 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: it was in the book and maybe it's in the film, 744 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: but I it was I mean, I watched this film 745 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:34,319 Speaker 1: with intense scrutiny. There wasn't any sense to me of 746 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: what are the people who are in scientology and remain 747 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: in scientology and who are dedicated this, What do they 748 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: perceive they're getting out of it? Because I have some 749 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: opinions about that what people have told me, Well, what 750 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: does it do for them? And why are they there? 751 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 1: Especially when people go into scientology, they don't you know, 752 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 1: they don't go into it because it's a cult. They 753 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,839 Speaker 1: go into it oftentimes because they're looking for something as well, 754 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes they are spiritual seekers or there. You know, 755 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: you might be one of those people that goes down 756 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 1: on the subway and someone says, would you like to 757 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: take our personality tests? You know, and um, sure, Oxford 758 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,879 Speaker 1: capacity analysis. It sounds like, you know, might be and 759 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,759 Speaker 1: you know, well if we see that you have a 760 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,319 Speaker 1: little trouble of communicating with people that's true, well we 761 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,759 Speaker 1: you know, we can say we can help you with that. 762 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,799 Speaker 1: Or in the case of Paul Haggis, um, you know, 763 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 1: he had a girlfriend that he was having trouble with 764 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: and say we we have a course that can help 765 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,759 Speaker 1: you in your relationships in pain. And the truth is 766 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: oftentimes they can help. It's like going into therapy. People 767 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:43,280 Speaker 1: do benefit from it. So this initial exposure to scientology 768 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,080 Speaker 1: is often very positive to people. What about the people 769 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,040 Speaker 1: like Travolta, people who seem to have the world on 770 00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,759 Speaker 1: a silver platter and everything is going their way, Well, 771 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: that wasn't true. When he got in. He was a 772 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,000 Speaker 1: you know, troubled young man who was in his first 773 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: movie in Mexico. He confided to an actress who was 774 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,759 Speaker 1: on the set. You know, he's having these difficulties and 775 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 1: she was a scientologist, and she gave him some auditing 776 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,839 Speaker 1: which is what scientology calls his therapy, and gave him 777 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 1: a copy of Dinetics and so on. He had an 778 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,960 Speaker 1: experience which happens to a lot of scientologists when they're 779 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,880 Speaker 1: being audited. He went exterior. In other words, he had 780 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 1: an out of body experience. He had a sense that 781 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: he had left his corporal being and could look around 782 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: the room and you know, see things behind him and 783 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,400 Speaker 1: so on. At the time he was taking a course 784 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: when he tried out for this Welcome Back Carter, the 785 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:46,000 Speaker 1: teacher had everybody in the class turned their direction. I 786 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,840 Speaker 1: think it was CBS Studios, you know, but telepathically send 787 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,520 Speaker 1: the message to the executives that the John Travolta is 788 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,839 Speaker 1: right for the role. And he got the part. And 789 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,360 Speaker 1: so he always credited Scientology was putting him in the 790 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,240 Speaker 1: big time, as he said, so you know, in that sense, 791 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,720 Speaker 1: he really did feel that it had changed his life. 792 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:09,399 Speaker 1: But it's one thing to get into it and it's 793 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,879 Speaker 1: another thing to get out of it. If you are 794 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,280 Speaker 1: a star like Travolta was at one time the biggest 795 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,839 Speaker 1: star in the world, and uh, you have put your 796 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,320 Speaker 1: name down again and again and again. As a scientologist, 797 00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: you're identified with it and they have tapes of you, yes, 798 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,359 Speaker 1: discussing your moments, right like if you and I were 799 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,839 Speaker 1: sitting in a Scientology auditing session right now, and you're 800 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: my auditor, and you know, and I'm holding the cans 801 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: which are attached to the E meter, and you're probing, 802 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:45,360 Speaker 1: uh and asking me very impersonal questions about my life 803 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,800 Speaker 1: and and things that I would not want to disclose 804 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:52,840 Speaker 1: to anyone else except in this very confidential confessional atmosphereiating 805 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: material that is actually secretly recorded, sometimes videoed, And then 806 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: it becomes apparent to you that if you decide to 807 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,919 Speaker 1: leave UM, the church may use some of that against you. 808 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: And I talk heard that. I talked to a guy 809 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,320 Speaker 1: whose assignment was to go through all those old auditing 810 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,799 Speaker 1: sessions on John Travolta and find stuff they could use 811 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,120 Speaker 1: against him because they were worried that he was he 812 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 1: was gonna go over the wall. Right in the piece 813 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:21,520 Speaker 1: in the film, The one thing I found that was 814 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:28,400 Speaker 1: disturbing was that there are celebrities and wealthy public figures 815 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,239 Speaker 1: who tie a certain amount of their money millions of 816 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,879 Speaker 1: dollars to this organization, a second tier, if you will, 817 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:36,839 Speaker 1: and this is my description the second tier if you will. 818 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,319 Speaker 1: Are you know, middle Americans, middle income who often go 819 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,880 Speaker 1: into debt, often go into dangerous amounts of debt and 820 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 1: unwise amounts of debt in order to pay for these 821 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,719 Speaker 1: ordering courses for them to give money to the church. 822 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,560 Speaker 1: And then there's people who are poor, who have nothing, 823 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,840 Speaker 1: who wind up trading in kind services. They become you know, 824 00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 1: they become like a labor force for them, and then 825 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,560 Speaker 1: they get forty cents an hour, acording to the film, 826 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:05,759 Speaker 1: and and and they're doing a lot of work that 827 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,640 Speaker 1: benefits other people. In the film, they're saying that these 828 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,719 Speaker 1: people are maintaining the hangar of cruises airplanes. Well, not 829 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:18,439 Speaker 1: only maintained it. What they did was refurbish it. They 830 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,239 Speaker 1: built all the furniture, they painted it. They you know, 831 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,040 Speaker 1: they essentially took an empty hangar and made it into 832 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,759 Speaker 1: an office in a place for his planes and all 833 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,480 Speaker 1: these elaborate Have you ever been in his hangar burbank Well, 834 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:32,759 Speaker 1: and he's got you know these you know, big the 835 00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,399 Speaker 1: cows and stuff like that, you know, banners hanging down. 836 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:40,840 Speaker 1: It's it's a pretty swank environment. And they handcrafted a 837 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:47,160 Speaker 1: limousine for him and oversaw the reconstruction of his tour bus, 838 00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,799 Speaker 1: and they, you know, refurbished his house. And these are 839 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,759 Speaker 1: people who are paid fifty dollars a week. Many of 840 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:59,399 Speaker 1: them joined as children, so you know, they're impoverished and 841 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,719 Speaker 1: they there, they have no place to go they have, 842 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,880 Speaker 1: you know, and if if they do, they don't know 843 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,480 Speaker 1: what they were then But of course maybe it may 844 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 1: be the case that their families and all are in 845 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,560 Speaker 1: the church and if they left, none of those people 846 00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: would ever speak to them. And do you think the 847 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: people who were the beneficiaries of this kind of stuff, 848 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,520 Speaker 1: do they know what's happening. There's no question that Tom 849 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,680 Speaker 1: Cruise knows what's going on inside the Sea Org. And 850 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:30,040 Speaker 1: I hold Tom to account. I single him out in particular. 851 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:36,600 Speaker 1: And because they're only two ways that the abuses that 852 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,480 Speaker 1: we chronicle in the movie and in my book, there 853 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,080 Speaker 1: are only two ways that they can be addressed, and 854 00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,000 Speaker 1: one is that the I. R. S. Decides well, maybe 855 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,920 Speaker 1: we should re examine that tax exemption that we were 856 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 1: bludgeoned into given them. In explain for people who don't know. 857 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,000 Speaker 1: But this is a fascinating part of the film. It 858 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:58,799 Speaker 1: was during the time that Hubbard was alive or was 859 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,040 Speaker 1: the settlement reached after Hubbard does after he died, and 860 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,800 Speaker 1: and apparently he had a brigade and had been raising 861 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:07,200 Speaker 1: a lot of money, and he had and he had 862 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,400 Speaker 1: a lot of cash at his disposal and was just 863 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,000 Speaker 1: shelling the I R S and litigation to maintain their status. 864 00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,960 Speaker 1: And finally the IRS just caved and said, well, here's 865 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,640 Speaker 1: the situation that described would have David Muscavage found himself 866 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:26,959 Speaker 1: in after Hubbard died. Uh he wrestled control of this organization. 867 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,520 Speaker 1: And Hubbard had decided not to pay the taxes, and 868 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,720 Speaker 1: so by the Church of Scientology was a billion dollars 869 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,960 Speaker 1: in arrears and it didn't have a billion dollars. And 870 00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:40,879 Speaker 1: so this was an existential moment for the church. They 871 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:45,080 Speaker 1: had to get a tax exemption. And moreover, the I 872 00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,360 Speaker 1: R S hated them because, you know, in the eighties 873 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:53,120 Speaker 1: Hubbard had infiltrated all these you know, the Justice Department, 874 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,440 Speaker 1: the I R S, Food and Drug Administration had all 875 00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,960 Speaker 1: these Scientology spies inside the government until the FBI broke 876 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,799 Speaker 1: it open and what was called Operations Snow White, and 877 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,960 Speaker 1: twelve people went to prison, including Hubbard's wife. So the 878 00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 1: I R S, among other government agencies did not look 879 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:14,120 Speaker 1: kindly on the Church of Scientology. So how do you 880 00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,960 Speaker 1: just imagine how you would go about getting a tax 881 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,879 Speaker 1: exemption from the I R S. Well, the Scientology way 882 00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:26,480 Speaker 1: was to launch twenty four hundred lawsuits against the I 883 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,600 Speaker 1: R S and individual agents, to hire private investigators to 884 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,640 Speaker 1: follow agents around to go to conventions where they might 885 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:35,799 Speaker 1: be drinking too much or fooling around. I don't have 886 00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,160 Speaker 1: a billion dollars to pay the taxes, but I've got 887 00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,680 Speaker 1: fifty million to lop some grenades. Yes, yeah, and so 888 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:49,680 Speaker 1: and they they they they won, and they wanted. My 889 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,840 Speaker 1: personal feeling it is twofold one is I think that 890 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,160 Speaker 1: the I R S just did cave because the deal 891 00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,160 Speaker 1: that the deal on the table was, will give you 892 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,280 Speaker 1: the exemption and and all those lawsuits will go away? 893 00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,040 Speaker 1: And they did. And so did they say, well, will 894 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,040 Speaker 1: we'll give you the exemption to take away those lassus? 895 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:08,560 Speaker 1: Would you have to pay us some amount of this 896 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,680 Speaker 1: money in a million dollars? And that's all that's the 897 00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,920 Speaker 1: I R S that's fired. And moreover, there was such 898 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 1: an overwhelming exemption. The church has manifold different entities, you know, 899 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:25,120 Speaker 1: but even Hubbard's novels are considered to be scripture and 900 00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:29,520 Speaker 1: taxes and uh, in the church now has the authority 901 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:33,440 Speaker 1: to determine which parts of itself should be tax exempt. 902 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,920 Speaker 1: Who was it in the film? If I remember correctly, 903 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,960 Speaker 1: there's someone I think there's an individual use site who 904 00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,600 Speaker 1: says to Hubbard early in his career, the only way 905 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:42,840 Speaker 1: you're going to get rich is if you start a 906 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,000 Speaker 1: religious They were about ten people he said that too, 907 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,400 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I think that Hubbard really, I 908 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,880 Speaker 1: think he really did believe that. But let me get 909 00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,440 Speaker 1: back to that question of you know, just to touch 910 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,640 Speaker 1: back on Tom Cruise before we finish that, if the 911 00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:01,520 Speaker 1: if the I r S re examined after the licking 912 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,239 Speaker 1: it took from from scientology, if it decided to go 913 00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,440 Speaker 1: back and re examine that, that might force change inside 914 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,880 Speaker 1: the church. But I haven't seen any evidence that the 915 00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,400 Speaker 1: r S has the appetite to do this. Almost the 916 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,920 Speaker 1: Senator on the West Coast, the Senator Ron Wyden, is 917 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,480 Speaker 1: looking into this, and so you know, that's a possible. 918 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,120 Speaker 1: But the other way that change and reform could come 919 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:28,680 Speaker 1: in scientology is that some of the celebrity megaphones turn 920 00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,960 Speaker 1: around in the other direction. And demand change. And nobody 921 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:36,279 Speaker 1: has benefited more from Scientology than Tom Cruise. Nobody is 922 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,799 Speaker 1: more identified in the public with the Church of Scientology 923 00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:43,359 Speaker 1: than Tom Cruise. Nobody has brought lured more people into 924 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,359 Speaker 1: the church than Tom Cruise. If you ask people name 925 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,319 Speaker 1: one member of the Church of Scientology, that's the one 926 00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,799 Speaker 1: and Uh and moreover, it's a powerful I mean if 927 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,799 Speaker 1: you look at you know, he was the number one 928 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,799 Speaker 1: box office star, so he had volta than uh than 929 00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:04,399 Speaker 1: Tom Cruise, and you know, and also Will Smith who 930 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:08,280 Speaker 1: started a Scientology school. Although he says he's not a scientologist, 931 00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:10,719 Speaker 1: he was one of the time he was number one. 932 00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:14,520 Speaker 1: So you have one to three the most powerful actors 933 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,400 Speaker 1: in among the moral And if you're a young actor 934 00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,080 Speaker 1: standing out in central casting waiting to get maybe he's 935 00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,399 Speaker 1: not a bad idea. If I stopped by this center, well, 936 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,160 Speaker 1: when you're standing in line, they'll be passing out brochure 937 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,680 Speaker 1: saying how to get an agent, how to get ahead 938 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,480 Speaker 1: and the business. Come to the celebrity center where to 939 00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,000 Speaker 1: make that direct link. Yes, and he also back in 940 00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,200 Speaker 1: the old days, the acting UH schools like the Beverly 941 00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:44,720 Speaker 1: Hills Playhouse was run by Yes who was my teacher. 942 00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,480 Speaker 1: He was apparently a wonderful teacher, and he was a scientologist. 943 00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,280 Speaker 1: And I think when so many of these young people 944 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,560 Speaker 1: they when they come, you know, it is a young 945 00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:57,800 Speaker 1: person's game when they get into it. So many of 946 00:55:57,960 --> 00:55:59,960 Speaker 1: the people that went into scientology, and this is true 947 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,279 Speaker 1: of anybody that tries to become an actor. Many people 948 00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,640 Speaker 1: who try to become an actor, they leave high school. 949 00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,080 Speaker 1: They don't go to college. You have to go right away. 950 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,840 Speaker 1: Nearly everyone we're talking about is un education. And so 951 00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:15,000 Speaker 1: you're in your vulnerable intellectually vulnerable, and and also you 952 00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:18,440 Speaker 1: are risking everything. Your friends are going off they're going 953 00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:20,800 Speaker 1: to get law degrees and stuff like that, and you 954 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:24,240 Speaker 1: are out in you know, Hollywood, eating dog food, hoping 955 00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,080 Speaker 1: to be a movie star. There's a sense of inadequacy 956 00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:29,960 Speaker 1: that you haven't filled in the great blanks that all 957 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:34,840 Speaker 1: your friends are doing. And and so you alongcome scientologists, 958 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,160 Speaker 1: which says, why bother none of that? Yeah, we can 959 00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,719 Speaker 1: you can supersede all that because well we will get you. 960 00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,120 Speaker 1: You will you will learn the secrets of the universe, 961 00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:48,360 Speaker 1: and you'll acquire superhuman powers. And that's and also just 962 00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 1: being noticed at all at that level is, you know, 963 00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,719 Speaker 1: very powerful, because you know, I'm sure you've done this 964 00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,400 Speaker 1: a million times. But I remember once when I was 965 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,560 Speaker 1: out in l a and I was a Norman Lear's 966 00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,200 Speaker 1: company and I I walked into a room in the 967 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,360 Speaker 1: lobby and there were about forty guys who were blond 968 00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:13,440 Speaker 1: and six ft two and extremely handsome, and and I 969 00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,840 Speaker 1: felt small and brown and uh. And you know, but 970 00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,840 Speaker 1: there was a sign saying no actors passed this point. 971 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,480 Speaker 1: And I was able to walk past this point and 972 00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:26,440 Speaker 1: all those blue eyes in my direction, and uh, and 973 00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:30,040 Speaker 1: I thought, one of those guys, one of those guys 974 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,360 Speaker 1: is going to have his life change, and everybody else 975 00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:35,800 Speaker 1: is gonna go home and some of them become lawnmowers 976 00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,280 Speaker 1: or something like that. But that's the risk to have 977 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,240 Speaker 1: the Church of Scientology come along, maybe in that same 978 00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,120 Speaker 1: room and passing out brochure is saying that we can 979 00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,800 Speaker 1: help you. And and by the way, on the brochure 980 00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,600 Speaker 1: that might have a picture of Tom Cruise or somebody 981 00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:58,560 Speaker 1: like that. It's a very powerful lure. If you also 982 00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:02,360 Speaker 1: appreciate lauren writes work. There's a lot more to consume. 983 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:08,000 Speaker 1: Nine books, five plays, countless articles, the documentary film based 984 00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:11,960 Speaker 1: on his book Going Clear, Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison 985 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,640 Speaker 1: of Belief is currently available on HBO on Demand and 986 00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:19,960 Speaker 1: HBO Go. And if you're ever in Austin you might 987 00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,160 Speaker 1: be able to catch him playing keyboard in the Blues collective. 988 00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:32,800 Speaker 1: Who Do Right said of playing in a band quote, 989 00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:35,400 Speaker 1: I decided a while ago that I would only do 990 00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:39,160 Speaker 1: things that are really important or really fun. This is 991 00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:43,160 Speaker 1: really fun. This is Alec Baldwin you're listening to. Here's 992 00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:43,480 Speaker 1: the thing.