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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five,

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Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger.

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Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger.

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Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love

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Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

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Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

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Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get

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Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and twenty eight,

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Speaker 1: which is airing in mid December of twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be interviewing Jennifer Barrett, who is the

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Speaker 1: author of Think Like a Breadwinner, which is a great

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Speaker 1: book about how women in particular can change their mindset

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Speaker 1: about money. So, speaking of money going out the door.

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Speaker 1: At the moment, Sarah, you as we're recording this, you

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Speaker 1: are in the middle of eight days of gift giving.

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Speaker 1: How's that going. We're surviving. We're keeping up barely. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think neither my husband and I. We're just excited

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Speaker 1: about buying a lot of stuff right now. But so

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Speaker 1: far our kids seem to be their souls haven't been

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Speaker 1: crushed yet. They've gotten at least something every night, and

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Speaker 1: we've got a few nights left. We're gonna make it.

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Speaker 1: What about you are are all the presents like wrapped

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Speaker 1: and ready? They are not wrapped and ready, but most

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Speaker 1: of them have been purchased, including for the majority of

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Speaker 1: my extended family. I took advantage of a particular Black

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Speaker 1: Friday sale. I did not buy many things on Black

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Speaker 1: Friday because I'm you know, I'm not a big fan

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Speaker 1: of I've learned like sales are about getting you to

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Speaker 1: buy things that, on the margins you wouldn't and so

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Speaker 1: the only reason a sale is a good deal for

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Speaker 1: you is if it's something that you would have paid

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Speaker 1: full price for and then you find out that there

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Speaker 1: is a discount, right, So that was actually what I

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Speaker 1: went for. It is something I had been looking at

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Speaker 1: giving everyone anyway, and then I saw the email as like, oh,

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Speaker 1: entire site twenty five percent off. I'm like, okay, I

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Speaker 1: will buy it today because that was what I was

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Speaker 1: planning on doing. So that I did, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I I'm with you. Yeah, we've been trying to minimize

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Speaker 1: some of the stuff like as we move, because it

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Speaker 1: all has to be packed up. But you know, with

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Speaker 1: five kids, it's impossible. And we recently had you know,

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Speaker 1: we're going to actually wind up doing even more gifts,

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Speaker 1: which I need to like get my head around. I

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Speaker 1: had thought, okay, five kids, well, even the four older ones,

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Speaker 1: we're going to do a secret Santa gift exchange for them, right,

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Speaker 1: because some people had been interested in repeating the sibling

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Speaker 1: gift giving thing what we had started. You know a

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Speaker 1: year or two ago that everyone buys a present for

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Speaker 1: their siblings. But if you think about the sheer volume,

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Speaker 1: like each of five kids buying four other presents, you know,

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Speaker 1: or even the four older kids buying it's just is

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Speaker 1: a lot of gifts, right, And so I was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: the four of you older ones will draw a name

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Speaker 1: out of hat. We'll do a secret Sanna. It was

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Speaker 1: just like every single bad sibling dynamic that exists in

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Speaker 1: our house was exacerbated by this experience. So within twenty

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Speaker 1: four hours, everyone knew who everyone had. Like there had

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Speaker 1: been screaming about how people weren't going to do a

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Speaker 1: good job. There was sadness because one person was more

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Speaker 1: into this idea than other people, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: there was accusations of, you know, people not making good

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Speaker 1: holiday decisions, and you know, it's just like, so we decided, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're going to go back to everybody getting something for everything,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna make my peace with the fact

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Speaker 1: that this is like twenty twenty all. If he buying gifts, yes,

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Speaker 1: is Henry buying gifts? I mean, they're gonna buy for him,

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Speaker 1: So I don't, you know, I need to confirm with

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Speaker 1: them what they think of this because I would have

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Speaker 1: to then do it obviously, or Michael would have to

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Speaker 1: do it, so possibly that we should. But I think

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Speaker 1: they want to buy gifts for him, right, so maybe

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Speaker 1: it could be sibling Christmas and that's it. That's it.

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Speaker 1: You should tell that to my gift closet because I've

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Speaker 1: already done. Now. I'm really excited about some of this stuff.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I wrote on my blog recently about Cameo,

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Speaker 1: this service where you can get celebrities to record greetings

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Speaker 1: to people, personalized greetings to people for a fee, and

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Speaker 1: it hits a sweet spot in our particular family because

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Speaker 1: I have a child who is really into Survivor, and

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Speaker 1: as you might imagine, there is a cornucopia a former

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Speaker 1: Survivor contestants on cameo, So that kind of solved that

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Speaker 1: problem pretty quickly. But yeah, I'm figuring stuff out. It's

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Speaker 1: gonna be a good Christmas, but yes, kind of inevitably

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Speaker 1: it's expensive, so pivoting sorry to breadwinners. Like what comes

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Speaker 1: to your mind, Sarah when I say that term, Well,

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Speaker 1: I was surprised. I want you to talk about what

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Speaker 1: you thought when you were a kid about bad winners,

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Speaker 1: because I was a little bit like, huh about what

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Speaker 1: you wrote. Well, I'm just curious with you because I mean,

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Speaker 1: you went and got a medical degree, which is a

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Speaker 1: you know, responsible thing for someone to do who might

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Speaker 1: be looking to support a family financially. So did you

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Speaker 1: have that as a message that you should be a

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Speaker 1: physician because it is a higher earning sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, was it totally just like you know, you

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Speaker 1: you wanted to do it and you can. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: don't think earnings had much to do with my choice.

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Speaker 1: Maybe a little bit of the prestige factor. I don't

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Speaker 1: mean prestige is a career, but more like I want

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Speaker 1: to show you that I can do this. I think.

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Speaker 1: You know, when I was growing up, two of my

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Speaker 1: good friends, well i'm not as I don't actually not

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Speaker 1: in touch with one of them anymore, but like they

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Speaker 1: were both going to go to med school, and I

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Speaker 1: never felt like as academically strong as them. But then

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know what, I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: to med school too, And then we actually all did

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Speaker 1: go to med school, and I think are all pretty

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Speaker 1: happy with our choices to do. So. I don't think

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Speaker 1: I didn't have much thought at all about my future

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Speaker 1: family structure. I don't know, I don't I didn't when

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Speaker 1: I applied to mdphd programs. It didn't even occur to

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Speaker 1: me how old I would be when I had kids,

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Speaker 1: Like I wasn't capable, or maybe I had a little

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Speaker 1: bit of stubbornness that like, I shouldn't think of what

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Speaker 1: my family structure would look like, because that's not a

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Speaker 1: feminist thing to do. So to just blindly go ahead

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Speaker 1: and do what seemed like a good career, so I

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Speaker 1: didn't think about it. I mean, when I was growing up,

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Speaker 1: my mother worked, but my father was definitely like our

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Speaker 1: household breadwinner. And I don't know, I'm still not. I

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Speaker 1: guess I'm not a breadwinner in our in our house

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Speaker 1: defined by like the majority earnings, but I still contribute

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Speaker 1: a very significant chunk. I mean, we would not be

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Speaker 1: able to save and live in the manner that we

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Speaker 1: do if I were staying home, because I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to give specif numbers, but like it's closer

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Speaker 1: to like a sixty forty split, not like a ninety

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Speaker 1: ten split or something like that. And nothing wrong with

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Speaker 1: that if you know that makes some other household happy.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I feel like I make a significant contribution,

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Speaker 1: I'll put it that way. And so I haven't actually

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Speaker 1: even had a lot of thoughts about like my husband

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Speaker 1: being quote unquote the breadwinner either. So yeah, I'm super

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Speaker 1: interested in this interview. Well yeah, I mean you could

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Speaker 1: and you could support a family well on your own.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's the you know with So yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: sort of a different question when you get to that point.

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Speaker 1: It's funny because I've been thinking about this too, it

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Speaker 1: ever since I read Jennifer's book many months ago, but

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Speaker 1: you know, long before we had her on here. But

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Speaker 1: I don't I definitely did not grow up thinking that

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Speaker 1: I would ever be responsible for supporting a family with

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Speaker 1: what I earned. And I'm trying to figure out why,

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Speaker 1: because it's not like my parents ever said that to me, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, oh, you know, you're a girl, so your

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Speaker 1: job won't matter. I mean, that's that they would never, ever,

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Speaker 1: ever have said something like that. And yet it's definitely

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Speaker 1: not a thought that I had that. You know, whatever

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Speaker 1: I do, I need to be able to you know,

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Speaker 1: whatever financial goals I have, I would need to be

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Speaker 1: personally responsible for making them. Now I will say that

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Speaker 1: I you know, I feel like I do very well.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I could also support a family pretty well

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Speaker 1: on my own if I were doing so. But it's

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Speaker 1: funny because I think if I had had that thought,

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Speaker 1: I might not have pursued writing as a career, because again,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't seem like a very responsible thing to do

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Speaker 1: if you are going to be a breadwinner. And so,

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Speaker 1: you know, fortunately it has worked out just fine, and

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Speaker 1: not just through the writing, I mean things like you know,

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Speaker 1: having another podcast, for instance, in the professional speaking circuit.

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Speaker 1: That's obviously all of that is as big a chunk

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Speaker 1: or more of what I do. But yeah, it's just

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Speaker 1: funny to think about that. You know, I've had to

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Speaker 1: probably learn to be more or you know, proactive about choosing,

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Speaker 1: you know, to earn more money and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if it was part of the generationals like geist,

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Speaker 1: you just weren't supposed to like think about it. I

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Speaker 1: would love to talk to a I don't know my

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Speaker 1: husband or he's a little bit older, but somebody a

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Speaker 1: very similar like geriatric millennial age group and find out whether,

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Speaker 1: if they were male, did they like think about these

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Speaker 1: practical things, because I just felt like there was such

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Speaker 1: an air of like follow your dreams, like don't think

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Speaker 1: about money, don't worry about it, just do what you

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Speaker 1: what you feel called to do, and that that kind

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Speaker 1: of prevented some of that practical thinking, which I actually

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Speaker 1: think is valuable and people do a lot more of now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I think still a lot

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Speaker 1: of young men grow up thinking more about the money

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Speaker 1: because they don't get to assume that there will be

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Speaker 1: somebody else earning money, even though again in most families

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Speaker 1: there are, so they may not have that built in assumption,

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Speaker 1: and so they think more about the economic returns on

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Speaker 1: different careers. But again, many of them are not thinking

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Speaker 1: about career gaps and like their child wearing timetable and

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Speaker 1: all that sort of thing too. So yeah, it's just,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting even how we are in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two, are twenty twenty one still for a few

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Speaker 1: more weeks, but you know, people are still you think

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Speaker 1: of yourself as growing up in a fairly progressive household,

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Speaker 1: you may still absorb these sort of larger cultural messages,

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Speaker 1: which it's interesting to see. Like what are my kids absorbing?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, they definitely see that both

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Speaker 1: of us work and take our careers seriously. I think

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Speaker 1: my children actually at one point like thought I out

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Speaker 1: earned Michael, which I don't. But I guess they have

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Speaker 1: not absorbed a message that is you know that that's

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Speaker 1: the way it naturally goes with gender. All right, well

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Speaker 1: let's hear what Jennifer has to say about all this. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be here with Jennifer Barrett, who

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Speaker 1: is the author of Think Like a Breadwinner and is

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Speaker 1: now newly the head of content at Fidelity. So, Jennifer,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the program. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: why don't you tell us a little bit about your

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Speaker 1: career journey and your family as well. Sure, so, well,

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Speaker 1: most of my career has been in media, and I

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Speaker 1: came to New York back in two thousand as the

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Speaker 1: foreign exchange reporter or for Dow Jones in the Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Journal. So that was my first foray into financial journalism,

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Speaker 1: and since then I've bounced around a bit. I worked

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Speaker 1: at Newsweek for a while, I worked at Hearst and

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Speaker 1: NBC and then CNBC, and then I took a job

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Speaker 1: at Acorns, which is the saving and investing app, and

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Speaker 1: I was Chief education officer there for about five years

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Speaker 1: before I took this role at Fidelity this summer. So

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Speaker 1: most of my career has been media, and then I

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Speaker 1: moved into financial services more recently, and for the best

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Speaker 1: twelve years or so, i've been in management. And I

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Speaker 1: took that turn when I had my second child. So

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Speaker 1: that was very interesting area of my life was incredibly

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Speaker 1: busy where I felt like my responsibilities at work and

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Speaker 1: my income grew dramatically at the same time that my

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Speaker 1: responsibilities at home grew with a second young child at home.

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Speaker 1: And so how old are your kids now? So they're

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Speaker 1: now eleven and fourteen? Excellent, excellent, So middle school, middle

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Speaker 1: school years roughly is that middle school and high school.

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Speaker 1: My oldest is a sophomore. The cutoff is December thirty

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Speaker 1: first in New York City, and so he's on the

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Speaker 1: younger end of his career. Gotcha, gotcha. And so I'm

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Speaker 1: very curious, And obviously your sons are having one experience

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Speaker 1: growing up. But when you were growing up, what were

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Speaker 1: the messages you remember learning about money? The various lessons

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Speaker 1: you learned as you were growing up, do any particularly

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Speaker 1: stand out to you? They do? And I think what's

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Speaker 1: interesting now when I look back, is that I grew

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Speaker 1: up in a pretty conventional home in at My father

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Speaker 1: was the solar primary breadwinner for most of my childhood

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Speaker 1: until my parents got divorced. I was in eighth grade then,

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Speaker 1: and so I have a very particular image, or had

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Speaker 1: a very particular image of what a breadwinner was. And

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Speaker 1: I think the fact that he was in that role

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Speaker 1: for so much of my childhood kind of informed the

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Speaker 1: way I thought about what my role would be when

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Speaker 1: I became an adult. And though my mom after the divorce,

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Speaker 1: you know, she was remarried, she launched kind of a

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Speaker 1: second career. She went back and got her MBA, got

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Speaker 1: her doctorate, became a professor, became a consultant, became the

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Speaker 1: person in her marriage that manages all the investments. So

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Speaker 1: she really moved into an almost entirely new role in

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Speaker 1: her second marriage. But a lot of that happened after

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Speaker 1: my formative years. So I look back now and I

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Speaker 1: can see the influence that she's had on me more recently.

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Speaker 1: But I think when I first entered adulthood, I had

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Speaker 1: these kind of preconceived notions about what my role would

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Speaker 1: be in a marriage. I had, you know, I sort

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Speaker 1: of assumed i'd get married. I assumed that my husband

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Speaker 1: would probably earn more than me. I assumed that he

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Speaker 1: would take the lead when it came to sort of

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Speaker 1: planning for the future and investing our money. And so

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Speaker 1: I operated on that principle. I thought that I was

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Speaker 1: pretty independent if I could cover my own bills, right,

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Speaker 1: And once I got married, I thought, Okay, if I'm

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Speaker 1: covering half the bills and the rent, I'm doing okay.

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Speaker 1: If I'm setting aside a little bit in a four

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Speaker 1: to one k and I have a little bit of savings,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing okay. And then I had a real wake

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Speaker 1: up call in my thirties and that's what really was

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Speaker 1: the genesis of this book, was realizing that independence is

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Speaker 1: not about being able to pay the bills, right. Independence

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Speaker 1: is really about building well so that you can support

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Speaker 1: yourself and all the things you want in your life.

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Speaker 1: And that distinction became really clear to me in my

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Speaker 1: thirties after we had our first son. Yeah, because you

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Speaker 1: realized that there were things you wanted, and it sort

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Speaker 1: of became clear to you from having read Think like

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Speaker 1: a Win or your book that your husband wasn't automatically

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Speaker 1: going to be in the position with his career choices

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Speaker 1: that he was interested in doing and so forth, wasn't

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Speaker 1: automatically going to be in the position to make those

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Speaker 1: things happen. Correct. Yeah, And I think when we first

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Speaker 1: got together, you know, he was earning more than me.

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Speaker 1: And it was only into our marriage a few years

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Speaker 1: when he was working at a startup at one under

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Speaker 1: he lost his job and then took him a little

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Speaker 1: while to get his financial footing after that, And I

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Speaker 1: think that's what really started it, because suddenly my income

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Speaker 1: was more important. And then we had our son. And

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Speaker 1: I talk about this in the book that there was

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Speaker 1: really one particular moments when I remember we were in

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Speaker 1: a small, one bedroom apartment at the time. We were

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Speaker 1: sharing our bedroom with our toddler. He was about eighteen

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Speaker 1: months old, and he woke up in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the night, as I do, and I was up kind

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Speaker 1: of pacing back and forth in our bedroom trying to

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Speaker 1: get him back to sleep and looking around at our apartment,

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Speaker 1: and in that moment, it really hit me what an

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Speaker 1: unsustainable situation we were in. And you know, the next

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Speaker 1: moment came the realization that I wasn't doing anything to

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Speaker 1: help us get out of that, that really all these

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Speaker 1: choices that I'd made with my money that I thought

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Speaker 1: were pretty sound, were not actually setting me up to

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Speaker 1: have this future that I wanted, and that were really

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Speaker 1: based on a very subconscious assumption that my husband would

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Speaker 1: play that role. And so, you know, in that moment,

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Speaker 1: the first thing I thought was, Oh, my god, how

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Speaker 1: vulnerable are you when you know you are dependent on

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Speaker 1: someone else to be able to afford the things you

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Speaker 1: want in your life. That was the first feeling, And

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Speaker 1: the second feeling was what the heck right? Because I

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Speaker 1: thought I was really independent and I had a good career,

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Speaker 1: and I thought I was making a lot of good choices,

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Speaker 1: and so I couldn't really figure out. It was like,

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Speaker 1: what is it that informed these choices that I'd made

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Speaker 1: with my money that have left me so vulnerable and

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Speaker 1: left all these things that are so important to me,

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Speaker 1: like having a second child, being able to stay in

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Speaker 1: the city that we love, being able to buy a

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Speaker 1: home or even rent a bigger one for our family,

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Speaker 1: that left all those things at stake. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I started looking back at my own childhood and the

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Speaker 1: assumptions that had come out of my own experience, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's when it really clicked, and so I

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Speaker 1: asked myself. I remember asking myself, like, if I had

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Speaker 1: been raised to think like a breadwinner, if I had

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Speaker 1: been raised to truly believe that I would be fully

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Speaker 1: financially responsible for myself and probably a family too, would

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Speaker 1: that have changed the choices I made with my money.

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Speaker 1: And you know, obviously the answer was a resounding yes,

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Speaker 1: and that sort of set me off on this path.

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Speaker 1: And then I started talking to other women, and I

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Speaker 1: realized that I really wasn't alone in those assumptions, and

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Speaker 1: that many of us had had these kind of wake

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Speaker 1: up calls where we had been making all these money

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Speaker 1: choices based on the assumption that we would have a partner,

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Speaker 1: that that partner would probably earn more than us, that

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Speaker 1: that partner would take the lead when it came to

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Speaker 1: investing in making some of these financial choices. And then

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Speaker 1: something had happens. Either we didn't get married, or we

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Speaker 1: got married, but he or she earned less, you know,

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Speaker 1: whatever the situation was. Suddenly we were left in this

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Speaker 1: position where we were questioning all the choices we had made,

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Speaker 1: and we were starting to realize that maybe these assumptions

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Speaker 1: we'd had growing up that had informed these choices were wrong. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: we're to take a quick ad break and then we'll

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Speaker 1: be right back to talk a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: what it actually means to think like a breadwinner. So

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Speaker 1: I am here with Jennifer Barrett, who is the author

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Speaker 1: of Think Like a Breadwinner, and she is sharing, you know,

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Speaker 1: what it means to in fact, to think like a breadwinner.

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Speaker 1: So we're saying, you know, people make lots of good

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Speaker 1: financial choices, right like, you know, people might not be

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Speaker 1: in debt, you know, or if they are paying down

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Speaker 1: student loans, they're doing so in a responsible manner. You know,

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Speaker 1: They're not outspending what they're bringing in. So how does

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Speaker 1: that differ from thinking like a breadwinner? What is the

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Speaker 1: missing piece of thinking like a breadwinner that's different from

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Speaker 1: just being generally responsible with your money? Sure, I think

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Speaker 1: thinking like our breadwinner really starts with asking what do

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Speaker 1: I want in my life? And what are the choices

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Speaker 1: that I need to make with my money and my

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Speaker 1: career in order to afford that life? And it sounds

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Speaker 1: so simple, but it's not a question a lot of

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Speaker 1: us ask ourselves. We don't ask ourselves what we want,

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Speaker 1: and then we don't ask ourselves what we need to

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Speaker 1: do in order to get that financially and professionally. And

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Speaker 1: it's really about like making these kinds of choices with

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Speaker 1: your money that will ensure you can take care of

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Speaker 1: yourself throughout your life and maybe others too, that you

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Speaker 1: won't feel like you're dependent on someone else to have

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Speaker 1: the things that are so important to you in your life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because when you don't think fundamentally that your family's standard

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Speaker 1: of living is going to be entirely up to you,

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Speaker 1: what sort of different choices do you make that if

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Speaker 1: you do assume that you are family standard of living

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Speaker 1: is highly likely to be entirely up to you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think the big one is investing. But I'll go

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Speaker 1: back a little bit because I think it's not just

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Speaker 1: you know, there's this cultural conditioning that we get that

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Speaker 1: sort of reinforces this idea that like, for women, it's

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Speaker 1: really about saving and budgeting. You know, we say for

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Speaker 1: these small splurges like a spa get away or a

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Speaker 1: handbag or something, and then for men the message is

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Speaker 1: really much different. It's about like how to reach a million,

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Speaker 1: how to say for a house, how to buy that

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Speaker 1: sports car you really want. It's much more expansive, but

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Speaker 1: it goes all the way back to childhood. So I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, my own beliefs and choices about money came

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Speaker 1: from my own experience growing up. But I'm not alone,

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Speaker 1: you know. And I looked at the research, and this

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Speaker 1: research is only from a few years ago. So I

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Speaker 1: had thought that things would be different when when we

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Speaker 1: became parents, but it's not. And I think it's because

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Speaker 1: we don't talk about a lot of these things, and

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Speaker 1: so these assumptions are perpetuated, even though we know that

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Speaker 1: a record member of women are now in the main

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Speaker 1: courseld breadwinner role for their families. So I think before

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Speaker 1: the pandemic in almost know, in just over sorry forty

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Speaker 1: percent of families with kids under eighteen, moms were the

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Speaker 1: soul or primary breadwinner. That's a record number. It's a

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Speaker 1: paradigm shift in the breadwinning model. But we're lagging culturally,

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Speaker 1: so the messaging hasn't quite caught up to the reality.

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Speaker 1: And it starts back in childhood, where parents are more

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Speaker 1: likely to talk to their girls about budgeting, about saving money,

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Speaker 1: and they're more likely to talk to their boys about

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Speaker 1: building credit and investing the build well. And you know,

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Speaker 1: all of those skills are critical, as you alluded to

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Speaker 1: just a minute ago, but there's a really big gap

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Speaker 1: for girls and for women when it comes to both

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Speaker 1: building credit and building well. And the pervasive prescription for

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Speaker 1: us is still like have a rainy day fund and

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Speaker 1: save for retirement and you should be fine. And that's

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Speaker 1: actually not adequate for most of us when we think

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Speaker 1: about all the things we want in our lives, right,

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Speaker 1: because there are decades between whatever your short term savings

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Speaker 1: goal is and your retirement for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: and you need to invest your money and grow your

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Speaker 1: money in order to be able to afford those things.

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Speaker 1: And that to me, is really one of the most

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Speaker 1: striking differences between the messaging for men and women, and

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Speaker 1: we see that play out in the numbers right women Still,

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Speaker 1: even though there's been a surge of female investors and

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Speaker 1: I love it in the last six months, we still

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Speaker 1: see that men overall invest earlier and invest more than women.

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Speaker 1: So women are very often playing catch up later in life,

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Speaker 1: and we're missing out on the one factor that has

431
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: the biggest impact on how much money we'll be able

432
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 1: to have at the end of our career or whenever

433
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 1: we need that money after we've invested it in that

434
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 1: is time. Time is the greatest factor because your money

435
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 1: will compounds, you know, the interesting you earn will earn

436
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 1: interest and so on and so on, and you know,

437
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 1: in order to really benefit from that, you need to

438
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: have your money invested for a long time. So the

439
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,879
Speaker 1: fact that we start investing later really puts this at

440
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 1: a huge disadvantage. And we see that when you look

441
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: at the research around wealth, single women have thirty two

442
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: percent of the wealth that single men have. So we

443
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 1: talk about the wage gap, but the wealth gap is

444
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: even bigger and it has a bigger impact on our lives.

445
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 1: And so One of the big messages that I push

446
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: for is like from the get go, start thinking about

447
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: how you can build wealth, how you can build credit

448
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: to build wealth, right, because you have to have good credit,

449
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: for example, to get a mortgage to buy a home,

450
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: and that is one of the single greatest sources of wealth.

451
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: From Thost Counseolds and I talk about thinking about your

452
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 1: paycheck as an opportunity to start building wealth. So from

453
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: the first paycheck you get, use every paycheck to be

454
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: less dependent on your next paycheck by stocking away you know,

455
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: fifteen to twenty percent into savings and investing and not

456
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: just for retirement. Yeah. And I imagine that this this

457
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: difference in how people approach life to it plays out

458
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: in careers as well, in terms of career choices, in

459
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 1: terms of you know, what we think of as as

460
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: a good career. You know, I know a lot of

461
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 1: women care more about about the balance per se than

462
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 1: than necessarily the paycheck. Right. We encounter that all the time.

463
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, that's the question, and I you know,

464
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: I would to bring up I'd heard you on the

465
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: How to Money podcast with Joel and Matt. They've actually

466
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: been guessed on this show as well, and both worlds, Yeah,

467
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: they're great. But I remember Joel saying something a couple

468
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: of years ago on the podcast that he, you know,

469
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 1: had been important for him for his you know, wife

470
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 1: to not have to work if she didn't want to

471
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: for pay. And so since he knew he was going

472
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: into radio, which is not the world's you know, it's

473
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: not investment banking, he had been thinking and from the

474
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: get go about things like, you know, buying rental properties

475
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: and all this, so that even in a lower career

476
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: he would have enough income to support a family. And

477
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: it was like that clear mindset. I don't think I've

478
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: ever heard a woman say something like that, Yeah, right,

479
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: that like, I'm considering a lower paid career, and so

480
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: since I need to be responsible for a family so

481
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: my spouse doesn't need to work if he or she

482
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: doesn't want to, I need to also be thinking about

483
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: ways to supplement it. I'm sure you have seen this

484
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: a lot as well. Yeah, and I one hundred percent agree.

485
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: Is that, you know, if we want to pick a

486
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 1: career that pays less, why not look for other opportunities

487
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: to earn money. I mean, whether it's a side gig

488
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: or it's passive income. I talk about a woman in

489
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: my book who actually was had a huge impact on

490
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: the you know this book happening at all. And I

491
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 1: realized in conversations with her, because she did think differently.

492
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: And that's sort of like the second light bulb that

493
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: went off was in talking to her after I'd had

494
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: my own wake up call and realizing that she thought

495
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: very differently. She just I'll just give you the quick

496
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: story on her. She was married quite young, and her

497
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: husband died in a car accident when she was twenty six.

498
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: They had a son who was two at the time.

499
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,479
Speaker 1: Her husband brought in sixty percent of the income. She

500
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: was in a more like traditional arrangement. She suddenly became

501
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: obviously the sole provider for her family. She got this

502
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 1: insurance settlement. It wasn't huge, and one day we were

503
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: talking about it and I said, oh, so did you

504
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: use some of it to supplement your income? And you know,

505
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: while you got back on your feet, and she just

506
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: looked at me like I had three heads, and she said, oh,

507
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: I would never touch that money for that. No, no, no,

508
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 1: that wasn't my regular income. She said, I invested that money.

509
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: I bought a property and then I started renting it out,

510
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: she said, because I knew that that money was going

511
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: to go toward our future. And I just in that

512
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: moment thought who thinks like that? First of all at

513
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: twenty six, but what woman is thinking that way? Where

514
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: she immediately thought, no, I have to learn to live

515
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: on less, and then she switched career path so that

516
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: she would earn more. She just cut back on their

517
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: expenses in the meantime. And so I started talking her

518
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: about where that came from, and it turned out that

519
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: she was one of three daughters. She was the oldest,

520
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: and her dad had sort of raised her like a breadwinner.

521
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: He had said to her, you need to be able

522
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: to stand on your own. He had taught her how

523
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: to invest very early on. He owned investment properties, and

524
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: so he sort of passed on his knowledge to her,

525
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: and that was so unusual, but it's a perfect example

526
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: of thinking like a breadwinner. And the result is I mean,

527
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: years later, she sold that place and she had enough

528
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: money from that to buy an apartment in New York

529
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,239
Speaker 1: when she moved to New York with her son and

530
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: got a job here, and then over time she bought

531
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 1: another property and she used that property to pay for

532
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,239
Speaker 1: his college. So I mean, and now she started her

533
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 1: own company. But she's been making these choices all along

534
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: the way that are very similar to what you talk about,

535
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: where she said, I'm going to need to be building

536
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: wealth on the side because my income alone may not

537
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: always be enough to support this future that I want

538
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: to support my son in the way that I want to.

539
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: Whether or not she found a partner, I don't think

540
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: she would have made different choices, to be honest, because

541
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: I think she was just thinking that way where she thought,

542
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 1: I'm always going to need to have something on the side,

543
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: and it doesn't need to take a lot of time,

544
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,959
Speaker 1: you know, investing in real estate, investing in the stock market,

545
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: picking up you know, a side hustle here or there

546
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: for a little extra money that you then put to

547
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: work for you. It just gives to you so much freedom.

548
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: It gives you so much choice. It really gives you

549
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: so much power over your future. Whether or not you

550
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: find a partner or not, you have the confidence to

551
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: know that you can afford the future you want. And

552
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 1: I think that's a crucial distinction. Yeah, And it sounds

553
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: like that father was teaching his daughter great lessons. Oh

554
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: so I wonder if you can maybe talk a little

555
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: bit about that, like what lessons should our listeners be

556
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: teaching our daughters, because I think those are the ones

557
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: who were perhaps not conveying these messages as much as others.

558
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: And then also, you know what we should be teaching

559
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,239
Speaker 1: our sons too. Sure, well, I can talk about, you know,

560
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: the lessons that he had taught her. He had her

561
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: split her money into different piles basically when she got

562
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: her allowed, so very early on she had spending money,

563
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: she had saving money, and then she had what was

564
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: the equivalent basically of investing where she would save her

565
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: longer term goals. And when she was old enough, she

566
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: started investing that money. So very early on she got

567
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: in the habit of when money came in, she immediately

568
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: put at least twenty percent maybe more into saving and investing,

569
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: and that just carried over when she got her first

570
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: paycheck and her dad, I will never forget this. He's

571
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: passed recently, but she said, every time they talked, he

572
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: always asked her not what she made, but how much

573
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: she saved. He never asked her what her income was.

574
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: He always said to her, how much are you saving?

575
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: How much are you investing. He put the emphasis on that,

576
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: and I think that's so important, and I go back

577
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: to the same thing I say, which is like, use

578
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: every paycheck as an opportunity to be less dependent on

579
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: your next paycheck, because that's how you have real freedom.

580
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: That's how you have real independence and choice. You know,

581
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, I will say the one

582
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: piece of advice that I had forgotten to mention earlier

583
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: was that my dad had what he called a go

584
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: to health fund and he told me about and when

585
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: he first mentioned it, I was like, oh, that's kind

586
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: of an interest concept. And it was only later when

587
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: I was an adult and kind of came back and

588
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,959
Speaker 1: started talking to him about it, that I really understood

589
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: how important it was. And he had had a really

590
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: bad job at one point and felt like he was

591
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: so dependent on his paycheck that he didn't have you know,

592
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: he really didn't have the choice to leave, and so

593
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: he vowed pretty early on that he would never be

594
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: in a situation like that again. And that's when he

595
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: really started saving and investing. And so the go to

596
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: health fund really was like, can I build up enough

597
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: money on the side so I know I can always

598
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: walk away, whether it's a bad relationship or a bad

599
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: work situation, whatever it is. I think now that was

600
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: an incredible lesson. Didn't quite sink in at the time,

601
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: but certainly ticket to heart later. But I think when

602
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: we're talking to our girls, you know, we can be

603
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: really conscious about the fact, like there's still a tendency

604
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: to sort of take our girls shopping with us, grocery shopping,

605
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: close shopping, not our sons. And there's a tendency if

606
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: you're going to open an investment account, there's a tendency

607
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: to open it for your son first, and to think

608
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: about that. Now, I think this is all changing, and

609
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: I know these are generalizations, but you know, if you

610
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: look at the research, this is still happening where we

611
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: sort of naturally fall into these assumptions about our sons

612
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: and daughters and the skills that they'll need to succeed

613
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: as adults. And so I say, one of the greatest

614
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: things that you can do is teach your girls and

615
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: your boys really early on the importance of living on

616
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: lesson they earn and saving and investing that difference from

617
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: the get go. Yeah, And I mean it seems like

618
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: you know, the just thinking about the whole career aspect

619
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: of it. I know I keep coming back to this,

620
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: but especially you know if people do wind up in

621
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: families that are mildly more traditional. You know, children do

622
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: absorb what they see. And so if you are in

623
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: a situation where mom has let's say dialed down or

624
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: it is just sort of has a less intense career

625
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: the dad does and all that, how do you make

626
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: sure that your daughters and to your sons still absorb

627
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: the lesson that any of them might need to be

628
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: the one who is supporting the family right that the

629
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: norm is not necessarily that dad is the one who

630
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: does this exactly. And you know, everyone needs to make

631
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,239
Speaker 1: the choices that are right for their family. And I

632
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: do say, even though I've been the main brethren or

633
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: in black family for about twelve years, really at any

634
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: moment that could change, right, I could lose my job,

635
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: my husband could get a raise. I mean, it's you know,

636
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: it's less about whether you're the person actually earning most

637
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: of the income in your household and more about thinking

638
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: individually and thinking as a team about how you are

639
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: going to invest and save your money and use the

640
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: money that you're making in a way that allows you

641
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: to have the future you want. It all really comes

642
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: back to that, and so I think if you are

643
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: a woman and you decide to step back, and I

644
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: know that that's been the case for a lot of

645
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: women in the pandemic. And we haven't talked about this,

646
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: but really there still is so much more pressure on

647
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: women to be the primary care giver than them. We

648
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: just feel, I mean, in our culture that's just the

649
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: case right now, and so women feel that much more deeply.

650
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: I think in the pandemic has put a lot of

651
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: women in a really terrible situation where we're forced to

652
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: choose between trying to take care of our kids, especially

653
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: when they were at home and we were trying to

654
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: school them. We were playing all these different roles and

655
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: also do our job, and it proves to be just

656
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: impossible sometimes. And I'm really sympathetic to that. It's been

657
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: a difficult year for us, and we have older children,

658
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: so I can only imagine, you know, with younger children

659
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: how it is. But I think you can still sort

660
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: of convey the message that you know, you should be

661
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: involved number one in the finances, whether or not you're

662
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: earning more or less, or if you've taken a break

663
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: from your career. You know, whatever situation you're in, the

664
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,959
Speaker 1: most important thing is to be actively involved in the finances,

665
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: to know where the money is going and why, to

666
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: be able to talk about it. I think it's important

667
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: to talk openly with your kids. You know, if you say, like,

668
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: if you're taking a break from your career, you can

669
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: talk to your kids about that and talk about why.

670
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: You know, Mommy is staying home or Daddy is staying

671
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: home for a little while, and here's why. And it

672
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that I don't want to go back and

673
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: work later. Just means that this is the best thing

674
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,719
Speaker 1: for our family right now. And so kids pick up

675
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: so much more. I don't need to tell you this,

676
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure, but kids pick up so much more than

677
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: we give them credit for. I talk to my kids now,

678
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: they have such an interesting perception of like my involvement

679
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,720
Speaker 1: in my husband's involvement. I used to feel so guilty

680
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: about not being at everything, and they really have no

681
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: memory of so many of those things. Like they remember

682
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: certain experiences that we share, but they don't remember if

683
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: you write like every single soccer game, or if you

684
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: pick them up every single day from school. And so

685
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: it is sort of. On the one hand, important to

686
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: remember that you know that our kids aren't going to

687
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: remember every single thing in terms of how presence we

688
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: were in every one of their activities or picking them

689
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: up from school, but they do remember whether we were

690
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,919
Speaker 1: present for them, whether we were listening to them, whether

691
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: we were creating those experiences for them. And then also

692
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: you know that they'll pick up so much from just

693
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: watching us, as you said, And so if you want

694
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: to make sure that your kids are getting the right

695
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: impression and that you're giving them the right lessons, sometimes

696
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 1: you literally just have to sit down and talk to

697
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: them because otherwise they might make assumptions that aren't correct. Yeah,

698
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 1: and talk through your various career choices, talk through your

699
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: money choices. I would imagine that you know, part of

700
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 1: people are listening to this like, well, I'm in my career,

701
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: I earn what I earn or whatever, But that's not said.

702
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you made a career change, and so I did.

703
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: But even if you don't make a career change, I mean,

704
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: what are some things you can do practically to sort

705
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: of be in more of that breadwinner mindset as you

706
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: go about, you know, building your career. Well, I think

707
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 1: one of the most important things is to advocate for yourself.

708
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: And I say that as someone who learned my lesson

709
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: the hard way. You know, I talked about this in

710
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: the book too, But I was working in music, it

711
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: was my dream job. I never really negotiated my salary.

712
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: I never really negotiated my job my pay raises. And

713
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 1: I was there for seven years. I think I got

714
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: three promotions, and I got very little in terms of

715
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 1: a pay increase over that time. And when I came

716
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: back from Attorneyly with my first son, after about you know,

717
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: over six years there, I learned that someone else with

718
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: just a few years more experience was making about fifty

719
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: five zero percent more than I was. And that was

720
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 1: like a sucker punch. I just remember. I remember crying

721
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: about it and feeling really like I'd been betrayed by

722
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: this employer. I'd been so loyal and what did I

723
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: do wrong? And I had a real moment of reckoning there,

724
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: and I realized that, like, I've been so happy in

725
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: my job, and I hadn't really thought about how critical

726
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: my income was or how much of a difference it

727
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: makes when you know, even five thousand dollars more a

728
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: year how that there's like this, you know, this exponential

729
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: effect over time because all of your raises are based

730
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: on your base, and so even if you can negotiate

731
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: five thousand more, it can make a bigger difference over time.

732
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: And so I sort of vowed in that moment like

733
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: I would never do that again, and that became, you know,

734
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: a real impetus for me taking charge going forward of

735
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 1: you know, all the conversations around my salary. I was

736
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: a much better advocate for myself. I also did a

737
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: lot more market research, and I started to look at

738
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: what are my skills worth in the market, And obviously

739
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: I found I found out I was vastly underpaid. Would

740
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: have validated what I've just learned, but I left the

741
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: company and I ended up freelancing and making quite a

742
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: bit more that next year, which was validation around my

743
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 1: market value. But then I also started thinking a lot

744
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: more strategically about my career. For me, it was really

745
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: important to bring in a bigger salary, and you know,

746
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: at that particular point of time, I wanted to make

747
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: sure we could get a mortgage. My husband was working

748
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 1: on contracts, so having a full time job making enough

749
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: to qualify for the mortgage was important, so I moved

750
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: into management. And sometimes those are choices you make, you know,

751
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: and I've been happy. I've been in management for over

752
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: twelve years. But I'm actually not sure that I ever

753
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: would have gone that route had I not really been

754
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: in a situation where I was compelled to start making

755
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: career and financial choices that would ensure that I would

756
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: have these things that I really wanted in my life,

757
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: staying in the city, buying a home, having a second child,

758
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: and so that really did change the course of my

759
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 1: career in the course of my life. And you don't

760
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 1: need to make drastic choices, but I think it does

761
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: come back to number one, advocating for yourself and number

762
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: two thinking strategically about your career. You know, like, if

763
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: you are going into a career that doesn't pay well,

764
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: as we talked about before, think about how you can

765
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: earn andcome on the side if that's the lifestyle that

766
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: you want, because there are trade offs, and if it's

767
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: important to you to earn more money, think about what

768
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: you enjoy doing and how can you map that against

769
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: a career that pays better. Excellent advice, Well, Jennifer. We

770
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 1: always end with a love of the week, which is,

771
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 1: you know, just something that we're enjoying this particular week.

772
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: I guess I could say I could throw out one

773
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: for me, the how to Money podcast where I heard you,

774
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 1: because of course I enjoy listening to that, So that's

775
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 1: a great option for any of our listeners who haven't

776
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: heard that one yet. It is a great podcast. I

777
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: will cite something that's not financial that we were talking

778
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: about before who started recording today, which is that I

779
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: just got my booster recently. My son, my youngest, just

780
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: turn eleven and he is getting his vaccine as well,

781
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: and so this is the first time that our entire

782
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: family is fully vaccinated, and for the first time I

783
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: think we can really think about traveling and spending more

784
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: time with our family, and that just brings me so

785
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,240
Speaker 1: much joy, wonderful. That's an excellent love of the week. Well, Jennifer,

786
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. So you can

787
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: let our listeners know where they can find you. I'm

788
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: at Jennifer Barrett dot com. You can read all about

789
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: me there, and then on social I'm at j Barrett

790
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: NYC on Twitter and Instagram. All right, well, thanks for

791
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 1: coming on, Jennifer, Thank you all right. Well, we are

792
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: back after hearing from Jennifer Barrett about how to think

793
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 1: like a breadwinner. So, Sarah, you want to go ahead

794
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: and read our question, which turns out to be well

795
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: matched to this episode. Yes, it does, Okay, she writes,

796
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: I'm having a troubling situation. I'd like to get your

797
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 1: advice on about ten years ago, my husband and I

798
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: just he would quit his job to stay home with

799
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: our then small children, and because we knew we wanted

800
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: a third child. I am so glad he could provide

801
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: the care needed for our children, especially when they were

802
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: babies and toddlers. I have a very flexible job and

803
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: could work from home or take leave if the children

804
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: were ever sick and my husband had to work. Now,

805
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: our youngest is seven years old, but my husband does

806
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: not seem that motivated, able or open to going back

807
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: to work. We are working to pay off debt, and

808
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: even a minimum wage job could help. How could I

809
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: help my husband understand we really need him to get

810
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: a job to support our family. I am open to

811
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: any and all feedback. I suspect you must have some

812
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: listeners who are working moms married to men who are

813
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: the stay at home parent. Yeah, so this you know

814
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: question obviously from a female soul breadwinner her family. It

815
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 1: turns out that being a breadwinner is not all fun

816
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: and games. I think a lot of women who have

817
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 1: you know, done a lot of you know, the lion's

818
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: share of the kid's stuff, the family stuff, and our

819
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: managing careers at the same time, or so like, oh

820
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: that sounds like heaven this somebody else is taking care

821
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 1: of all of that. But there are definite trade offs.

822
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: If you are the sole breadwinner of a family, you

823
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: are dealing with a situation where, you know, possibly it

824
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: may be that longer than you anticipated. I imagine that

825
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: a great many women who have stayed home with their

826
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 1: kids have kind of consoled themselves during the hard early

827
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 1: years that once the kids were in school, they would

828
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: have time for their other projects, which may not have

829
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: all been paid work, and that they were going to

830
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 1: have more time once they had gotten through these tough

831
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: early years. And I think they would not be happy

832
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: if their husbands then said to them, go get a

833
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: minimum wage job, because you know, we need you to

834
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: make money. And the truth is, the jobs you're going

835
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: to get after ten years out of the workforce may

836
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: not be as interesting or as well paid or you know,

837
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 1: exciting as what you would have gotten if you'd stayed in.

838
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: And so if you choose to be as you made

839
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: a family decision to be a sole breadwinner, you may

840
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: need to consider the reality that you could be that forever,

841
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: like that's it now, not always, but it could happen,

842
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: so anyway, just something to keep in mind. Taking a

843
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: practical approach, The first question, since she is the sole breadwinner,

844
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: is can she earn more money? I mean, part of

845
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: being a breadwinner is actually earning enough to support your family.

846
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: And so if she is not earning enough money, then

847
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: she needs to look at that. She could maybe try

848
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: to get promoted with her in her own job, or

849
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: perhaps she needs to start looking at other jobs. It's

850
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,959
Speaker 1: a great time to be looking for a job right now,

851
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: and she doesn't have the same you know, constraints that

852
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: a lot of people do, Like she might be able

853
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: to take a job that was less flexible. She might

854
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: be able to take a job where there was no

855
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: option to work from home. She might be able to

856
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: take a job where you know, she had to travel

857
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 1: because you know, her husband is home with the kids,

858
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: right so if they have to the school shuts down

859
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: for three weeks, like he can cover that. She doesn't

860
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: need to be available for that, And if you give

861
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 1: up some of that flexibility, you might be able to

862
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: find in some higher paying job. So I kind of

863
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: think that's the first thing. Also, because you know, it's

864
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 1: really hard to change someone else. Like you can change yourself,

865
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: you cannot change someone else. You know. Obviously, if you're

866
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: trying to pay off debt, like you guys need to

867
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: meet as a family and explore all avenues, one of

868
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: which might be cutting your spending, right, that's certainly one

869
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: of the things that is an option. I mean, maybe

870
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: it's a big thing. Maybe you go to a smaller house.

871
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: I mean, again, this might be a good time to

872
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: sell a house, although it's not a good time to

873
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: buy one. So you know, you have to figure that out.

874
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: But the truth is, if she is going to nag

875
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: him to take a job, it is going to cause

876
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: a ton of resentment. So the only way he is

877
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: going to think about doing this is if she follows

878
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: Dale Carnegie's favoue advice to inspire in him an eager

879
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: want like namely, he has to think it's his idea

880
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: and that he wants to do it, so you know,

881
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: you can sit down and talk about your finances with

882
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 1: just a completely open mind saying I'm open to all avenues.

883
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 1: How are I going to pay off this debt? What

884
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: do you think we should do? And he might come

885
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: with the idea that she gets a different job, or

886
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: they cut back on spending. But maybe one of the

887
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: ideas he'll come up with is getting a job himself.

888
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: You just don't know, but I think that's what's going

889
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 1: to have to be. And especially if you know the

890
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: budget trims that you guys come up with are pretty

891
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: unpalatable like that, he might get his idea around that

892
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 1: idea a lot faster. So that's how it's going to

893
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: have to happen. In my mind, I love that, especially

894
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: you know the discuss I think bringing everybody to the

895
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: table with a non biased discussion of these This is

896
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: our financial picture. This is where we're going to be

897
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: in ten years if nothing changes, Like, okay, well we

898
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,439
Speaker 1: have saved zero dollars for retirement and still have debt.

899
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: What does that look like in twenty years? Do we

900
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 1: ever want to retire? Like? What are what does our

901
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: future look like like? Having that conversation that I mentioned

902
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: in the beginning of the episode, like I had no

903
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: forward thinking about family life. Well, now we're old enough,

904
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: we can do that. And I think this person needs

905
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: to do that with hard numbers and graphs and together

906
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: figuring out what is the best way to reach our goals.

907
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: And I agree it might be, you know, a reduction

908
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,720
Speaker 1: in spending is actually you know, as important. Or perhaps

909
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: he can think of some way of earning money that

910
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: is palatable, like I don't know, turn a room into

911
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: an airbnb and that can be his job. And if

912
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 1: you're in a good enough area, maybe that could actually

913
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 1: bring in enough income and not be a miserable thing

914
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,720
Speaker 1: to do. I mean, I just made that up, but like, yeah,

915
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: I think this has to be a joint decision. And

916
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: I also wanted to say that like, whenever you get

917
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: questions like this, or when we get questions like this,

918
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 1: my first instinct is to switch the genders of who

919
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: asks and see if my brain handles it differently, because

920
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: that will tell us if there's sort of gender bias,

921
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: And like, yes, he should go back to work. We

922
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: would you say the same thing to a woman who

923
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: had been home in the exact same context, Like I

924
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know, but it's a very useful

925
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 1: exercise and I think it particularly became sally when you're

926
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: dealing with family structures that are opposite of how they

927
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: quote unquote normally are all right? Well? This has been

928
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 1: best of both worlds. We've been talking about thinking like

929
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: a breadwinner with Jennifer Barrett and our question also on

930
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: somebody who has been thinking like a breadwinner and would

931
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: like to think less like one. But we will be

932
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: back next week with more on making work and life

933
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah

934
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox

935
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura

936
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both

937
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 1: worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on

938
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: making work and life work together.