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Speaker 1: Bushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, it's me Debby Camobell. Welcome back to another

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Speaker 2: episode of Who's with Me, my new podcast brought to

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Speaker 2: you by Pushkin Industries and Rabbit Grin Productions and me.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for tuning in today. Last week we had a

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Speaker 2: great episode with Nava Mao. I was great to have

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Speaker 2: that episode. Great to close up Pride Month with that

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Speaker 2: discussion about what it is to be a trans person

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Speaker 2: in Hollywood and a trans person in the world. If

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Speaker 2: you haven't seen it, check it out. And this week

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Speaker 2: our guest is a friend of mine, Robert Reich. Robert

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Speaker 2: Reisch is a former Labor Secretary for the United States

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Speaker 2: under Bill Clinton. These days, he's known for, you know,

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Speaker 2: being on substack and social media calling out billionaires.

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Speaker 1: You know, and he's a guy who's met a lot

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Speaker 1: of billionaires, so he is.

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Speaker 2: He just had a birthday, he turned eight, and he's

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Speaker 2: a guy who's determined to be on the right side

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Speaker 2: of history, at stand the right side of history. He

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Speaker 2: also admits when he's wrong sometimes, which is a big

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Speaker 2: thing for an eighty year old white man. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's a sweetheart, So happy to have him on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Can wait for you to check him out. Oh, if

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Speaker 2: you like me doing stand up, I will be doing

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Speaker 2: stand up. I'm gonna pull up the dates right now

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Speaker 2: as I look at my phone. In Stanford, Connecticut on

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Speaker 2: September twenty fifth through the twenty sixth at the New

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Speaker 2: York Comedy Club. I don't know why it's called the

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Speaker 2: New York Comedy Club, but it's in Stanford, Connecticut. And

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Speaker 2: I'll be at Stanford University, which is actually where I

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Speaker 2: was born. I was born in Stanford Hospital on October first,

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Speaker 2: at the Memorial Auditorium. You can go to my website

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Speaker 2: WQMO bell dot com or go to them to get

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Speaker 2: those tickets. Please get them early and off in the way.

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Speaker 2: We vote in Chicago. So what's going on? I got

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Speaker 2: myself into some stuff.

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Speaker 1: Mean too. It happens to me quite accidently. You know.

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Speaker 1: I have opinions.

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Speaker 2: I say to them out loud, or I type them

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Speaker 2: out loud on my substack. Joined my substack also called

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Speaker 2: Who's with Me? So was it a like ten days

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Speaker 2: ago or so? The UFC had their Freedom two fifty

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Speaker 2: event at the White House. A lot of people, a

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Speaker 2: lot of celebrities went to the White House for the

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Speaker 2: UFC event. Some usual suspects, you know, people whose name

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Speaker 2: I won't mention, but who have put their whole brand

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Speaker 2: and all their chips in the middle of the table

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Speaker 2: for Trump. But comedian Nate BARGETSI went and U I

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Speaker 2: just thought that was weird because Nate is the guy

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Speaker 2: who has said on many occasions that he's not political,

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Speaker 2: and which, first of all, there's no such thing as

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Speaker 2: not being political. Every choice you make in the in

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Speaker 2: life is political. Everything you do now you don't have

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Speaker 2: control over all your choices. You can't not choose to

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Speaker 2: not walk down the streets that were paved over, you know,

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Speaker 2: Indigenous people or indigenous land. But if you have money

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Speaker 2: and access to power, and you have power, then you

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Speaker 2: have more choices. So Nate has very explosive to said

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Speaker 2: he's not political. But he went to the White House

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Speaker 2: and people were surprised to see him. At the White House.

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Speaker 2: He took pictures with Sarah Halckambe Sanders, and Joe Rogan,

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Speaker 2: no surprisdent Joe Rogan's side. He took pictures with RFK

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Speaker 2: Junior and Cheryl Hines, RFK Junior's wife. So yeah, you

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Speaker 2: cannot go to an event at any point in the

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Speaker 2: history of the country at the White House and say

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Speaker 2: it's not political. First of all, let's be clear about that.

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Speaker 2: Anytime you go into the White House and you're taking

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Speaker 2: pictures there, and anytime you've been invited into the White House,

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Speaker 2: I'll say that and they are happy to have you there.

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Speaker 2: If they're not there to negotiate for someone's freedom or

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Speaker 2: negotiate for please drop less bombs in our country, then

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Speaker 2: it's a political act. If you're just going there to

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Speaker 2: be in photo ops with whoever the president is, even

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Speaker 2: if you agree with that president, that's political. But certainly

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Speaker 2: when they're doing a much criticized cage fight on the

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Speaker 2: White House lawn. And also under a president who I've

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Speaker 2: called a fascist. I called him a fascist in my subject,

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Speaker 2: very least an authoritarian, totalitarian. There's all these different words

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Speaker 2: you use, but a president who uses his Department of

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Speaker 2: Justice as a weapon, as a bully pullpit to get

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Speaker 2: even with people. Just last week, the Department of Justice

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Speaker 2: has sentenced people to between thirty and one hundred years

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Speaker 2: for just being affiliated with an anti ice protest. One

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Speaker 2: person shot and injured a police officer. That person got

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Speaker 2: one hundred years, which is we can talk about that's

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Speaker 2: a crime, of course, but one hundred years. There are

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Speaker 2: people in prison for like he didn't kill the cop.

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Speaker 2: Not making excuses, but I'm saying there are people in

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Speaker 2: prison for murder who have less than one hundred years.

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Speaker 2: But one person got a hundred years, and then one guy,

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Speaker 2: Daniel Sanchez Estrada, got thirty years, not for being at

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Speaker 2: the protest, but he moved a box of anti fascist

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Speaker 2: zines from like inside of a building, the outside of

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Speaker 2: a building. I think it was his house. You can

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Speaker 2: look this up. The Intercept has a great article about it. Also,

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Speaker 2: you can go to Prairie Landdefendants dot com. You can

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Speaker 2: to learn more about the Prairie Land Defendants. This is

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Speaker 2: what this case is about, these people who are affiliated

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Speaker 2: and anti ice protesters. So yeah, so Daniel sanchezstro I

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Speaker 2: got thirty years for moving to box and zines. He

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Speaker 2: did not shoot at the cop. He did not know

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Speaker 2: that that person was going to shoot at the cop.

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Speaker 2: I don't think he was there, but again go to

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Speaker 2: the Intercept or go to Prelandefendance dot com to check,

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Speaker 2: and he got thirty years in prison for moving a

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Speaker 2: box of anti fascist zines. So that's the president we have.

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Speaker 2: That's the president. The president also the Supreme Court, which

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Speaker 2: many of them have been installed by the president or

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Speaker 2: the rallies take the president's orders. Have just ended temporary

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Speaker 2: protective status for asylum seekers. So people who are coming

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Speaker 2: from other countries byfically you know, brown and black countries,

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Speaker 2: Haitians and others who coming from those countries who need

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Speaker 2: or hear legally they get temporary protective status. The Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court has just effectively ended that. They've already made clear

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Speaker 2: they're coming from gay marriage. So all this stuff our

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Speaker 2: political choices being made. You can't go to the White

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Speaker 2: House and see a UFC fight that is being had

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Speaker 2: to celebrate the president on his birthday and say that's

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Speaker 2: not a political choice and this is not about me

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Speaker 2: coming after Nate. Other people were there, Uh, mister Serena Williams,

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Speaker 2: Alexis Ohanian was there. His defense was that he owns

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Speaker 2: a bunch of sports teams and so he was invited

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Speaker 2: by the people who own the UFC t KO, who

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Speaker 2: also owns w ME, which is the awkwardly enough, which

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Speaker 2: is also the agency that I'm with w ME. I

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Speaker 2: love my agents. They I don't think they were there.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, so it is just a sticky, sticky wicket. Uh,

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Speaker 2: you can't. You cannot go to the White House, especially

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Speaker 2: under this administration, and not get some dirt on you

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Speaker 2: and not expected to come back. So I wrote a

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Speaker 2: subject about it that was just basically the ten rules

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Speaker 2: of how not to do that. You know, don't be

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Speaker 2: in a photo with fascist first of all, just don't be.

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Speaker 2: Don't be in a play a location where fascists are.

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Speaker 2: Don't be in a place where where fascists might come

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Speaker 2: to coagulate. Don't be around fascists who in the midst

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Speaker 2: of coagulating.

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Speaker 1: Don't do that. Just don't. It's easy not to do that.

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Speaker 1: And think about Nate. I'm not mad at Nate.

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Speaker 2: I saw that that show rising here on YouTube said

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Speaker 2: I was trying to cancel Nate. I didn't watch the segment,

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Speaker 2: but I just saw it pass my feed. I'm not

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Speaker 2: trying to cancel Nate. I'm notally trying to help Nate out. Nate,

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Speaker 2: you want to open an amusement park, don't associate with

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump. You don't want amusement park that is only

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Speaker 2: for maga people. That's not a very profitable amusement park.

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Speaker 2: An amusement park that doesn't want black, brown, Indigenous, Latino, gay, straight, trans,

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Speaker 2: non binary. An amusement park needs everybody to go. You know,

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Speaker 2: even Disney occasionally has had gay days, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean.

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Speaker 1: So you need something that everybody.

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Speaker 2: If you want to open amusement park, if you're trying

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Speaker 2: to be that level of made it, you need to

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Speaker 2: be weirdly inclusive in your capitalism. I'm kidding sort of.

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Speaker 2: It's weird, so I'm not. I'm just more like, hey,

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Speaker 2: maybe don't do that. People have said that they knew

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Speaker 2: Nate was maga. I'm not, haven't paid it. I was

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Speaker 2: just shocked there's not people around Nate to go, like,

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Speaker 2: hey man, I know you want to go, but maybe

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Speaker 2: don't go. I have people around me. One of my friends,

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Speaker 2: Nato Green, I just reachopped him last week. I was like, hey, Nato,

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Speaker 2: should I do this thing? He's like, maybe don't do that.

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Speaker 2: NATO's my constantly air I've talked about before. He's a comedian,

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Speaker 2: he's got a special coming out soon. Pay attention. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: maybe don't do that. I don't understand why Nate Barghezi,

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Speaker 2: who is clearly an industry and clearly is running a

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Speaker 2: corporation at this point, or somebody running the Nate Barghetti

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Speaker 2: corporation he calls Nate Land. Why there's somebody who's like, hey, man,

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Speaker 2: I know you want to go to the UFC fight.

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Speaker 2: Maybe just watched it home and don't tweet about it,

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Speaker 2: because at this point in history, being associated with Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump is just a bad look, full stop. I'm not

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Speaker 2: talking about being a Republican. We can have that debate

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Speaker 2: another time, but being in the same general location as

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump on purpose and being happy to be there

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Speaker 2: is just a bad look because this guy's literally doing

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Speaker 2: everything he can and using all the people around him

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Speaker 2: to tear apart American democracy, and that's going to affect

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Speaker 2: all of us. I'm not trying to be the Sheriff

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Speaker 2: of comedy, but yeah, especially right now, you can't be

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Speaker 2: nonpolitical when there's things like the Prairie Land Defenders, where

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Speaker 2: a group of like the eight or nine people got

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Speaker 2: between thirty and one hundred years in prison and only

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Speaker 2: one of them did something that you go, yeah, that's bad.

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Speaker 1: That person shot and injured a cop. That's bad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're gonna to deal with the criminal justice system, buddy,

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Speaker 2: You're gonna get a lawyer who can argue why you

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Speaker 2: thought that was a good idea, or what you were

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Speaker 2: thinking about, or you know what your state of mind is.

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Speaker 2: But other people who got those huge prison sentences were

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Speaker 2: not doing anything that warranted even a prison sentence. So

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Speaker 2: that's the country we live in. If you weren't aware

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Speaker 2: of that, If you're somebody who's listening to this right now,

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Speaker 2: who's like, I didn't realize that.

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Speaker 1: He'd gotten that bad, well it's gotten that bad.

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Speaker 2: You don't got to keep with the news to know

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Speaker 2: that Donald Trump is a fascist or authoritarian, choose your

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Speaker 2: word of choice. And he's trying to rip apart in

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Speaker 2: America at the seams so he can rebuild it in

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Speaker 2: his own white nationalist image. Oh one more thing before

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Speaker 2: we get to the guest. Today, it's Dead Pioneer's Day

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Speaker 2: on Who's with Me? I can remember the name of

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Speaker 2: my show. For a second, I was like, the United

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Speaker 2: Ate is America. Now it's Dead Pioneer's Day on Who's

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Speaker 2: with Me. Dead Pioneers are an indigenous led punk band.

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Speaker 2: They have three albums out. Their new album out today,

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Speaker 2: is called Wagon Burner. They are led by a man

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Speaker 2: named Greg Deal, who I met years ago on Toty Bias.

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Speaker 2: We did an episode about whether or not was okay

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Speaker 2: for the Washington Our Word team to be named the

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Speaker 2: Aushington the Washington R word, you know, the racial slur

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Speaker 2: for Indigenous folks that they have since left behind. But

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Speaker 2: this was like over ten years ago when they were

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Speaker 2: still calling themselves at And we had a debate on

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Speaker 2: the show between an Indigenous guy who thought they are

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Speaker 2: thought it was okay to call them the R word,

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Speaker 2: and an Indigenous guy who thought it was not okay

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Speaker 2: to call them they're racist slur for Indigenous folks.

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Speaker 1: Greg was that guy. He was not the other guy.

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Speaker 2: And one day I was on Instagram and this band

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Speaker 2: came up called Dead Pioneers, and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I like this music. Wait is that Greg Deal? It

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Speaker 2: was Greg Deal. So I'm a supporter of the band.

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Speaker 2: And if you check out the new album Wagon Burner,

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Speaker 2: I would say check out track three.

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Speaker 1: You may recognize the voice of the person on track three.

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Speaker 1: The track is called a Message from mister Bell, So

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Speaker 1: check that out. I'll get it wherever you get your things.

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Speaker 1: Our guest today is someone who regularly confronts Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: ideas in Donald Trump's ideology and probably would confront Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump to his face if he had the chance.

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Speaker 2: Robert Reich Robert Riich recently celebrated his eightieth birthday and

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Speaker 2: he's still spitting hot fire on his substack on social media.

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Speaker 1: Please follow him.

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Speaker 2: He's got a podcast called The Coffee Clatch that I've

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Speaker 2: been on. I've even been a guest host on a

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Speaker 2: couple occasions. I hope to be back soon. Robert has

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Speaker 2: a new documentary out about his last class that he

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Speaker 2: taught at UC Berkeley, where that's where I know him

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Speaker 2: from being around the streets of Berkeley. It's called The

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Speaker 2: Last Class. You can check it out if you follow

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Speaker 2: Robert on his socials you can find out where that

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Speaker 2: feels is that to be seen. He also had a

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Speaker 2: book come out last year that's called Coming Up Short,

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Speaker 2: which is a memoir of his life. We talk about

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Speaker 2: his time working for governments. We talk about how he

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Speaker 2: met Bill Clinton when they were both Rhodes scholars as

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Speaker 2: young men. We talk about his relationship to civil rights

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Speaker 2: hero Michael Schwerner Mickey Schwerner as he calls him, who

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Speaker 2: he knew when they were both in elementary school. Together,

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Speaker 2: and Mickey Scharner stood up for him, which really helped

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Speaker 2: teach Robert as a young man how to stand up

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Speaker 2: to bullies. And we also talk about how we can

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Speaker 2: find hope in these days where he's a very optimistic

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Speaker 2: guy to be a guy who has seen as much

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Speaker 2: as he has in his eighty years. And really I

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Speaker 2: hope to be that kind of guy when I'm eighty

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Speaker 2: years old. So anyway, enjoy the interview. Hey, thanks for

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Speaker 2: watching an episode of Who's with Me. If you're on YouTube,

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Speaker 2: please like and subscribe, share hit the hyph button. I

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Speaker 2: hear it makes all the difference. Please like, subscribe, share,

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Speaker 2: hit the hyph button. Thank you, thank you for coming

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Speaker 2: on my podcast.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I just am delighted. I appreciate that I'm delighted.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate that I'm delighted. So, you know, we have

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Speaker 3: had many conversations. I think ninety percent of them have

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Speaker 3: been in public, which is sort of is.

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Speaker 4: That you know that's true? Yeah, it feels like it's

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Speaker 4: very personal. I know, I can't explain it, you know.

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Speaker 1: I Well.

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Speaker 2: Also, the way I approach those public conversations with you

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Speaker 2: is I treat them like they're personal.

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Speaker 1: Like so I don't treat them like we're performing in

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Speaker 1: front of people.

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Speaker 4: So I don't feel like we're performing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, no, not at all, not at all. So

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Speaker 2: my podcast is Who's with Me? Same as my substack.

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Speaker 2: And the thing I really wanted to do with the

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Speaker 2: podcast is really like, have conversation with people that I

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Speaker 2: respect and that I know. But I've never been able

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Speaker 2: to say, sit down and talk to me for forty

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Speaker 2: five minutes. So I appreciate that that you would show up.

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Speaker 2: And I really wanted to also highlight people, like I

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Speaker 2: said in the in the in the Bay Area, in

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Speaker 2: the East Bay, and you're someone who's become identified with

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Speaker 2: the in the East Bay and blue bubble liberal lefty politics.

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Speaker 4: I am not a lefty. I'm not a blue bubble okay.

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Speaker 4: I mean I'm just a common sensical, normal American patriot.

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Speaker 2: I mean I would hope I can accept that. I

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Speaker 2: just wish more people to find those words the way

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Speaker 2: you do. M Like, how so you say I think

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Speaker 2: it's a great place to start, is like, first of all,

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Speaker 2: before we get there, we start there. I start by

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Speaker 2: giving people their flowers. So I'm gonna start by giving

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Speaker 2: you their flowers. The idea of like letting you know

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Speaker 2: why I invited you here and what and why I

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Speaker 2: think it's important to talk to you. So I appreciate

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Speaker 2: you for like you're one of the few people in

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Speaker 2: the public sphere who has stayed focused and on the

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Speaker 2: path and seemingly not ever sort of like wavered in

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Speaker 2: the face of criticism and even I'm sure it's got

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Speaker 2: to be hard, but it's great to see someone do

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Speaker 2: that who also, I feel like, is someone who has

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Speaker 2: done it for my whole life that I have known

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Speaker 2: about them.

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Speaker 4: You know, I've done it my whole life too. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's really have that in common. Yeah, and I you know,

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Speaker 4: I can't imagine changing my tune. I mean people say, well,

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Speaker 4: you're one one, you know, one horse pony or just

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Speaker 4: one tune. But it's an important tune. It's a very

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Speaker 4: important I mean, it's it's it has to do with

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Speaker 4: social justice and inequality and all of the stuff that

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Speaker 4: we're struggling with and we've been struggling with for my

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Speaker 4: entire lifetime.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you also know that there's people, I'm sure

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Speaker 2: you've worked with many people in your life who maybe

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Speaker 2: started out on that tune, but at some point they

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Speaker 2: decided to, uh take a check from somebody or decided

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Speaker 2: to or they hung out with the people like I

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Speaker 2: understand all that, but it's more fun over here or

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Speaker 2: they you know that. You You have to have seen

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Speaker 2: people in your life who have maybe who were at

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Speaker 2: one point you felt very aligned with, who then sort

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Speaker 2: of moved into a different sphere.

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Speaker 4: Yes, many, Yeah, And I won't tell you who they are.

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Speaker 1: No, for sure, I think we could google some of

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Speaker 1: them yet.

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Speaker 2: But but but yeah, I'm not asking the name names.

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Speaker 2: What I am asking you is like, it's got it?

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Speaker 2: Does it feel harder to stay on your path? Has

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Speaker 2: it ever felt harder? As you've seen people around you

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Speaker 2: start to go, I'd like to hang out here, but

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Speaker 2: this country clubture is well air conditioned.

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Speaker 4: No. It makes me a little bit pissed off, honestly.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I just think, what is integrity if you

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Speaker 4: can be so easily persuaded by the country club or

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Speaker 4: by you know, the lure of that set of money

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Speaker 4: or whatever it is, that you're just giving up your principles.

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Speaker 1: For you, What do you think it is that you

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Speaker 1: haven't been lured?

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Speaker 4: I think that that the more important question is why

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Speaker 4: have they been, Lord, I mean, I think that's that's

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Speaker 4: bizarre to me, obviously. I mean, I'm just doing what

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Speaker 4: I do and I haven't changed.

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Speaker 2: I think you're right. That is the most important, the

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Speaker 2: more important question. It's just so common that it feels

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Speaker 2: more unique to not be lured, to not be sort

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Speaker 2: of pulled to, like, you know, to be pulled into

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Speaker 2: spaces where you sort of go, I'll write a check

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Speaker 2: to those people, but I'm not going to hang out

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Speaker 2: with those people that show up, and I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to speak fervently for those people.

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Speaker 4: Well, that is the most depressing thing I've ever heard

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Speaker 4: you say. I mean, I mean, the fact of the

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Speaker 4: matter is we've this country. You know, it's so off track,

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Speaker 4: and it was off track before Trump. I mean, it

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Speaker 4: was really off track before Trump. And then the widening inequality,

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Speaker 4: the corruption in terms of wealthy paying for politicians getting

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Speaker 4: changes in the rules for them. I mean, I understand

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Speaker 4: why most people felt that the game was rigged. And

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Speaker 4: here comes Trump and he says, I'm your you know,

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Speaker 4: I'm your savior.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well obviously it wasn't. But I can understand why people

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Speaker 4: were hoodwinked.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the way I sort of rationalize it. I guess,

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Speaker 2: because I do understand that people were hoodwinked, is that

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Speaker 2: most people don't pay anywhere near as close attention to

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Speaker 2: news and politics as people like me.

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Speaker 1: And you do.

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Speaker 2: So the only image they're seeing it is occasionally goes

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Speaker 2: past them on their social media feed, and he looks

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Speaker 2: like a you know, he's very memorable, he's very social

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Speaker 2: media friendly in that way that the algorithm prefers him.

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Speaker 2: But they're not actually digging into like who this person

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Speaker 2: is or what their policies are, because they're not. Most

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Speaker 2: people don't think about art as dug In as we are.

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Speaker 4: They're not as dug In. That's true, And I think

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Speaker 4: that the problem is not so much that the problem

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Speaker 4: is that the progressives and liberals and whatever you want

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Speaker 4: to call them, democrats have not made it clear to

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Speaker 4: people that there is another side, and that the rule

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Speaker 4: of law, social justice, democracy, you know, anti racism, anti fascism,

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Speaker 4: you know, all of that is important, and as a result,

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Speaker 4: you've got just one person sucking up the entire oxygen.

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Speaker 4: I can't tell you how many people come up to

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Speaker 4: me and say, what did the Democrats stand for? And

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Speaker 4: I say, well, I don't know I can say what

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Speaker 4: I stand for. Yeah, And it pisses me off. It

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Speaker 4: annoys me that the Democrats have not come up with

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Speaker 4: a voice or ten voices or or one hundred very

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Speaker 4: powerful voices.

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Speaker 2: Isn't part of the problem that there are you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about like Zorn mam Nani, I'm thinking about

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Speaker 2: like summerly out of Pennsylvania, I mean, with this course

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Speaker 2: of squad AOC. But I was thinking about Latifa Simon

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Speaker 2: here that there are new like voices. There are powerful voices,

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Speaker 2: people who are powerful orators, people who aren't just going

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Speaker 2: to say the thing that gets social media friendly but

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Speaker 2: also has policy behind it.

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Speaker 1: But the Democrats don't uplift those voices in the same way.

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Speaker 4: No, they don't. And the Democrats are, you know, as

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Speaker 4: a party, are completely in the pockets of the very wealthy.

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Speaker 4: And I was there in the nineteen eighties. I mean

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Speaker 4: nobody else remembers the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: I was a kid. I was.

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Speaker 4: I was.

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Speaker 1: I was in the same rooms you were in.

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 4: I was there in the nineteen eighties watching Democrats say, well,

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Speaker 4: you know, we're always going to have the house, and

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Speaker 4: we'll probably always have the Senate, and so uh, it's

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Speaker 4: let's let's make let's let's make a deal with the devil.

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Speaker 4: Let's let's let's open the doors to the very wealthy,

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Speaker 4: the big corporations, because we know we're always going to

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Speaker 4: be here. And uh, and why should the Republicans be

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Speaker 4: the only ones that are getting all the money?

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Speaker 2: That's that that part as they say that part the

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Speaker 2: like the there had, their parties are better. Why should

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Speaker 2: they be alones? Have good parties? Why should they have

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Speaker 2: good expense accounts?

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Speaker 4: And we we have the power, and why not you know,

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Speaker 4: take advantage of it. And that that Faustian bargain I

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Speaker 4: saw again and again and again in the nineties. I

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Speaker 4: saw it starting in the in the eighties. Maybe there

426
00:21:03,144 --> 00:21:05,944
Speaker 4: was a little bit in the seventies, but that was

427
00:21:05,984 --> 00:21:10,064
Speaker 4: the beginning of the end, not the end. Was the

428
00:21:10,064 --> 00:21:12,584
Speaker 4: beginning of the problem, the beginning of where we're we're

429
00:21:12,584 --> 00:21:14,344
Speaker 4: not yet, we're not We're not the end.

430
00:21:14,504 --> 00:21:19,184
Speaker 2: Okay, that's so let's talk about that little You like

431
00:21:19,304 --> 00:21:21,384
Speaker 2: to be all optimistic all the time.

432
00:21:22,424 --> 00:21:24,944
Speaker 4: No, No, what I've said so far is not it's

433
00:21:24,984 --> 00:21:26,304
Speaker 4: optimistic all the time.

434
00:21:26,424 --> 00:21:28,263
Speaker 1: But some people would say this is the end and

435
00:21:28,304 --> 00:21:29,344
Speaker 1: you're saying this is not you.

436
00:21:29,464 --> 00:21:31,664
Speaker 4: No, it can't be, because I think what what the

437
00:21:31,984 --> 00:21:36,984
Speaker 4: what the forces of authoritarianism and neo fascism and bigotry

438
00:21:37,264 --> 00:21:41,144
Speaker 4: want us to believe is that there's no hope and

439
00:21:41,184 --> 00:21:42,864
Speaker 4: if there's no hope, we give up, and if we

440
00:21:42,904 --> 00:21:45,824
Speaker 4: give up, then they have it all. So that's their

441
00:21:45,904 --> 00:21:48,744
Speaker 4: that's their plan. You know, you guys give it up.

442
00:21:49,864 --> 00:21:52,024
Speaker 4: And so no, we're not going to get pessimistic and

443
00:21:52,064 --> 00:21:53,664
Speaker 4: we're not going to give up and we're not going

444
00:21:53,744 --> 00:21:58,384
Speaker 4: to We're not going to give it to them.

445
00:21:57,344 --> 00:22:00,264
Speaker 1: I ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever.

446
00:22:00,544 --> 00:22:01,864
Speaker 2: So I'd like to point something out to you that

447
00:22:01,904 --> 00:22:03,304
Speaker 2: you I'm sure you're worried of about yourself, but I

448
00:22:03,344 --> 00:22:04,544
Speaker 2: just want to make sure you know that I know.

449
00:22:04,904 --> 00:22:08,104
Speaker 1: You are a You're a white. I am what I am.

450
00:22:08,464 --> 00:22:10,744
Speaker 1: You're a man. I am a man. You're a man.

451
00:22:11,904 --> 00:22:14,504
Speaker 1: You are of a certain age. I know you just

452
00:22:14,624 --> 00:22:15,624
Speaker 1: I'm old. You're old.

453
00:22:15,624 --> 00:22:17,384
Speaker 4: I'm a boomer.

454
00:22:17,544 --> 00:22:18,224
Speaker 1: I'm a boomer.

455
00:22:18,264 --> 00:22:22,104
Speaker 4: I mean I was born in nineteen forty six, fucking

456
00:22:22,224 --> 00:22:26,064
Speaker 4: forty six, you know, I mean, I'm going to be eighty.

457
00:22:27,064 --> 00:22:29,224
Speaker 1: Sheit. You know.

458
00:22:29,304 --> 00:22:31,504
Speaker 4: When I was a kid, I remember I met an

459
00:22:31,544 --> 00:22:35,464
Speaker 4: eighty year old man who was trying to court my grandmother. Oh,

460
00:22:35,504 --> 00:22:38,144
Speaker 4: and I thought he was the oldest thing I had

461
00:22:38,184 --> 00:22:40,864
Speaker 4: ever seen in the world. It was Methuselah was like

462
00:22:40,904 --> 00:22:44,384
Speaker 4: a fossil. I was amazed that he could stand, he

463
00:22:44,384 --> 00:22:45,664
Speaker 4: could barely stand.

464
00:22:45,384 --> 00:22:47,744
Speaker 1: And had interested courting. That's also another thing that was

465
00:22:47,784 --> 00:22:49,464
Speaker 1: another as before viagra. Yeah.

466
00:22:49,584 --> 00:22:51,184
Speaker 4: I don't know how he did it or how my

467
00:22:51,184 --> 00:22:54,664
Speaker 4: grandmother did it, but but I mean the idea that

468
00:22:54,744 --> 00:22:58,904
Speaker 4: I am almost as old as he and Bill Clinton

469
00:22:59,024 --> 00:23:02,224
Speaker 4: and George W. Bush and you know, the the Trump

470
00:23:02,904 --> 00:23:06,944
Speaker 4: all of us hitting eighty so is enough to give

471
00:23:06,984 --> 00:23:08,064
Speaker 4: eighty year olds a bad name.

472
00:23:08,104 --> 00:23:10,424
Speaker 2: But the other thing I'd say is I guarantee you

473
00:23:10,464 --> 00:23:13,784
Speaker 2: that that age year old man wasn't older eighty than

474
00:23:13,784 --> 00:23:14,464
Speaker 2: you're about to be.

475
00:23:15,224 --> 00:23:15,344
Speaker 1: Oh.

476
00:23:15,504 --> 00:23:16,824
Speaker 4: I was hoping you'd say that.

477
00:23:16,904 --> 00:23:20,504
Speaker 2: Yes, Oh good, I think the right thing. Yeah, because

478
00:23:20,744 --> 00:23:24,263
Speaker 2: just based on you who you are. And so my

479
00:23:24,344 --> 00:23:26,104
Speaker 2: mom has you by a few years. She's about to

480
00:23:26,144 --> 00:23:29,504
Speaker 2: turn she's about an eighty nine this year. Who Yeah,

481
00:23:29,544 --> 00:23:30,784
Speaker 2: so she's got you by a few years. She's not

482
00:23:30,784 --> 00:23:32,904
Speaker 2: even she's not even a generation they talk about.

483
00:23:32,904 --> 00:23:36,824
Speaker 1: She's that free. I can they call it the silent generation.

484
00:23:37,024 --> 00:23:41,184
Speaker 4: Or the silent Yeah, well no, the silent generation. Yeah,

485
00:23:41,344 --> 00:23:43,544
Speaker 4: they called it the Silent generation, but they also called

486
00:23:43,584 --> 00:23:47,504
Speaker 4: it the Greatest generation because the Greatest Generation went through

487
00:23:47,544 --> 00:23:50,184
Speaker 4: the Second World War. Okay, okay, so your mom is

488
00:23:50,224 --> 00:23:52,023
Speaker 4: part of the green I think the silwich.

489
00:23:52,184 --> 00:23:54,464
Speaker 2: I think it's that thing where those it's kind of

490
00:23:54,544 --> 00:23:57,344
Speaker 2: like millennials are getting are squeezed out because it's like

491
00:23:57,424 --> 00:24:00,344
Speaker 2: too close to Gen Z's. So I think she's in that,

492
00:24:00,464 --> 00:24:03,024
Speaker 2: like probably in the Great Generation. But if you look

493
00:24:03,024 --> 00:24:04,944
Speaker 2: it up, some people say, well, there's this little sliver

494
00:24:05,104 --> 00:24:07,624
Speaker 2: that's a silence. Yeah, but in the same way that

495
00:24:07,664 --> 00:24:10,024
Speaker 2: my mom is about to turn eighty nine, and I

496
00:24:10,064 --> 00:24:12,184
Speaker 2: would say, it's a really hip with it, eighty nine

497
00:24:12,224 --> 00:24:14,704
Speaker 2: year old she And she says because she hangs out

498
00:24:14,744 --> 00:24:17,144
Speaker 2: with her granddaughters and also hangs out with younger people

499
00:24:17,224 --> 00:24:18,864
Speaker 2: and sort of like the key Yeah, I.

500
00:24:18,824 --> 00:24:21,664
Speaker 4: Mean, so, I you know, I hang out with I

501
00:24:21,704 --> 00:24:25,064
Speaker 4: still hang out with students. You know, my students. They're

502
00:24:25,144 --> 00:24:29,824
Speaker 4: between eighteen and twenty four. And I fool myself into

503
00:24:29,864 --> 00:24:33,464
Speaker 4: thinking sometimes when we're all together that I'm one of them,

504
00:24:34,184 --> 00:24:37,264
Speaker 4: and then I catch a glimpse of myself with them,

505
00:24:37,304 --> 00:24:38,904
Speaker 4: and I think to myself, who's that.

506
00:24:38,824 --> 00:24:39,464
Speaker 1: Little old guy?

507
00:24:39,944 --> 00:24:43,464
Speaker 4: Who's that old guy with those beautiful young people?

508
00:24:44,824 --> 00:24:47,984
Speaker 2: So so I bring up all your some of your identifiers,

509
00:24:47,984 --> 00:24:50,824
Speaker 2: not all of them, the white male of a certain

510
00:24:50,864 --> 00:24:53,384
Speaker 2: age and at a certain level of privilege, that you know,

511
00:24:53,864 --> 00:24:57,384
Speaker 2: that category of human being is not always interested in

512
00:24:57,424 --> 00:25:01,784
Speaker 2: social justice. So how do I need more? Why are

513
00:25:01,824 --> 00:25:05,904
Speaker 2: you so clearly committed in a way that you're you're

514
00:25:05,984 --> 00:25:08,144
Speaker 2: the rest of your group are not always that clearly committed?

515
00:25:08,224 --> 00:25:11,664
Speaker 4: Well, again, I think the interesting question is why.

516
00:25:11,264 --> 00:25:13,704
Speaker 1: Aren't for sure they're not here right now? So I

517
00:25:13,744 --> 00:25:14,184
Speaker 1: gotta ask you.

518
00:25:14,264 --> 00:25:20,704
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, Well I suppose if I were into self assessment,

519
00:25:21,344 --> 00:25:23,264
Speaker 4: which I don't like to do, and that's why I'm

520
00:25:23,264 --> 00:25:25,104
Speaker 4: pushing it. You are pushing me.

521
00:25:25,984 --> 00:25:28,504
Speaker 1: I maybe the last conversation we have pushed you too far.

522
00:25:29,984 --> 00:25:31,424
Speaker 4: I would say that a lot of it has to

523
00:25:31,464 --> 00:25:35,144
Speaker 4: do with the fact that I have always been very short.

524
00:25:35,544 --> 00:25:38,944
Speaker 4: I was bullied as a kid. I was made fun of,

525
00:25:39,024 --> 00:25:44,064
Speaker 4: I was ridiculed. They you know, they the bullies when

526
00:25:44,064 --> 00:25:47,184
Speaker 4: I was six years old, took me and and and

527
00:25:47,344 --> 00:25:50,344
Speaker 4: took me and hung me upside down over the toilet

528
00:25:50,384 --> 00:25:53,584
Speaker 4: in the boys room and threatened to flush me down

529
00:25:53,664 --> 00:25:56,184
Speaker 4: the toilet. You know, I was at five years old.

530
00:25:56,624 --> 00:25:59,504
Speaker 4: It was it was a nightmare, yeah, for sure, for sure,

531
00:25:59,704 --> 00:26:04,144
Speaker 4: And so I asked older occasional a few older boys

532
00:26:04,144 --> 00:26:07,584
Speaker 4: to kind of be my protectors. And one of those

533
00:26:07,784 --> 00:26:11,424
Speaker 4: older boys who was my protector is named was named

534
00:26:11,744 --> 00:26:17,184
Speaker 4: Michael Schwener, Mickey Schwener. And in nineteen sixty four I

535
00:26:17,224 --> 00:26:20,704
Speaker 4: lost touch with them, you know, after I became a teenager,

536
00:26:20,744 --> 00:26:25,464
Speaker 4: I didn't need older protectors. But I learned, because I

537
00:26:25,504 --> 00:26:29,744
Speaker 4: was in college at that time, that Mickey Schwener, along

538
00:26:29,784 --> 00:26:32,544
Speaker 4: with two other civil rights workers, had been in Mississippi

539
00:26:33,024 --> 00:26:36,464
Speaker 4: and had been murdered by the Ku Klux Klan. And

540
00:26:37,264 --> 00:26:40,504
Speaker 4: that really so I was eighteen at the time when

541
00:26:40,584 --> 00:26:44,304
Speaker 4: I learned that, and I think about that, that actually

542
00:26:46,584 --> 00:26:50,104
Speaker 4: did change my life because it was I saw bullying,

543
00:26:50,384 --> 00:26:53,424
Speaker 4: not just in terms of the tough guys who would

544
00:26:53,464 --> 00:26:57,984
Speaker 4: hold my whole me upside down over the toilet, but

545
00:26:57,984 --> 00:27:04,584
Speaker 4: but racism and white you know, racial superiority.

546
00:27:04,464 --> 00:27:04,544
Speaker 1: And.

547
00:27:07,144 --> 00:27:13,784
Speaker 4: Men bullying women, and employers blue employees, and the rich

548
00:27:13,904 --> 00:27:16,984
Speaker 4: bullying the poor. And I saw bullying all around. I

549
00:27:16,984 --> 00:27:21,264
Speaker 4: mean in terms of and bullying defined as using your

550
00:27:21,424 --> 00:27:27,504
Speaker 4: power to exploit and demean and ridicule and hurt and

551
00:27:27,704 --> 00:27:33,944
Speaker 4: ultimately sometimes even murder the powerless. And I said, I

552
00:27:33,984 --> 00:27:37,104
Speaker 4: didn't say in these words, but I remember feeling at

553
00:27:37,104 --> 00:27:39,184
Speaker 4: the time, No, that's I'm not going to do. I'm

554
00:27:39,224 --> 00:27:41,504
Speaker 4: not going to let that happen. I'm just not going

555
00:27:41,584 --> 00:27:42,264
Speaker 4: to let that happen.

556
00:28:00,344 --> 00:28:01,264
Speaker 1: How do were you at that point?

557
00:28:02,264 --> 00:28:04,504
Speaker 4: That was eight when I was eighteen eighteen, that's when

558
00:28:04,504 --> 00:28:05,864
Speaker 4: I heard about Mickeyschwarner.

559
00:28:07,224 --> 00:28:10,504
Speaker 2: So obviously for people who don't know people do, he's

560
00:28:10,744 --> 00:28:14,344
Speaker 2: like a civil rights icon for that, for you know,

561
00:28:14,384 --> 00:28:17,944
Speaker 2: in a martyr of the civil rights era. And I

562
00:28:17,944 --> 00:28:19,664
Speaker 2: didn't know that you two had been connected until your

563
00:28:19,664 --> 00:28:24,464
Speaker 2: book came out, and it was such a like almost

564
00:28:24,504 --> 00:28:26,184
Speaker 2: like a well, of course this is who he is.

565
00:28:27,184 --> 00:28:29,704
Speaker 2: This if this if Mickey Schwerner, who when you were

566
00:28:29,744 --> 00:28:31,984
Speaker 2: a kid was somebody you went to and he did

567
00:28:32,024 --> 00:28:34,424
Speaker 2: protect you and was among the people who protected you,

568
00:28:34,464 --> 00:28:38,104
Speaker 2: and then you saw that happen to him, of course

569
00:28:38,144 --> 00:28:39,784
Speaker 2: you would take that. I mean, thank god you took

570
00:28:39,784 --> 00:28:40,424
Speaker 2: that lesson from it.

571
00:28:40,464 --> 00:28:41,104
Speaker 1: I guess, well, I.

572
00:28:41,624 --> 00:28:44,584
Speaker 4: Think it was it was when the the person who

573
00:28:44,624 --> 00:28:48,224
Speaker 4: protected me from the bullies was murdered by the real

574
00:28:48,264 --> 00:28:53,704
Speaker 4: bullies of America. You know, I just I couldn't. I

575
00:28:53,744 --> 00:28:57,384
Speaker 4: couldn't stand it. I really couldn't stand it. The cognitive

576
00:28:57,424 --> 00:29:04,344
Speaker 4: dissonance was so great, and so there was no question

577
00:29:04,384 --> 00:29:06,544
Speaker 4: in my mind. It wasn't as if I said, well,

578
00:29:06,624 --> 00:29:12,184
Speaker 4: should I be a you know, a hedge fund manager?

579
00:29:12,784 --> 00:29:18,104
Speaker 4: I ha, No, I just did what I thought was necessary.

580
00:29:18,704 --> 00:29:21,504
Speaker 1: How did you find your way from there into political life?

581
00:29:23,264 --> 00:29:26,384
Speaker 4: Well, I got involved in the anti war movement and

582
00:29:26,424 --> 00:29:29,544
Speaker 4: the anti war I'm talking about Vietnam War.

583
00:29:30,064 --> 00:29:31,424
Speaker 1: The Yeah, we really have to name our wars.

584
00:29:31,624 --> 00:29:35,304
Speaker 4: We have to these days. The anti Vietnam War candidate

585
00:29:35,384 --> 00:29:39,304
Speaker 4: for president was Jean McCarthy in nineteen sixty eight, and

586
00:29:39,384 --> 00:29:44,144
Speaker 4: so I went clean for Jene. You know, I shaved,

587
00:29:44,424 --> 00:29:47,344
Speaker 4: I looked, you know, was that the slogan clean for Gene,

588
00:29:47,424 --> 00:29:50,144
Speaker 4: be clean, you know, clean, clean for Jane. And I

589
00:29:50,184 --> 00:29:56,064
Speaker 4: went out and I organized students in seventeen states to

590
00:29:56,304 --> 00:30:00,024
Speaker 4: go out and get the vote out for Jean McCarthy.

591
00:30:00,224 --> 00:30:03,424
Speaker 4: And then of course Martin Luther King Junior was assassinated

592
00:30:03,864 --> 00:30:07,184
Speaker 4: and Bobby Kennedy was assassinated and everything went to hell,

593
00:30:07,344 --> 00:30:11,224
Speaker 4: and Hubert Humphrey was the candidate of the Democrats, and

594
00:30:11,704 --> 00:30:15,384
Speaker 4: Richard Nixon was elected. I tell people know that year

595
00:30:15,544 --> 00:30:17,824
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty eight. If you think now is bad and

596
00:30:17,864 --> 00:30:21,304
Speaker 4: now is bad, but nineteen sixty eight was a really

597
00:30:21,784 --> 00:30:27,344
Speaker 4: truly shitty year. I mean, cities were burning, Vietnam was

598
00:30:27,424 --> 00:30:33,144
Speaker 4: getting to be even a bigger horror. And so I

599
00:30:33,224 --> 00:30:35,904
Speaker 4: was lucky enough to get a Rhodes scholarship, and I

600
00:30:36,024 --> 00:30:38,384
Speaker 4: just got out of here. I got out of America

601
00:30:39,304 --> 00:30:49,784
Speaker 4: and spent two years, blissful years, really looking at the

602
00:30:49,864 --> 00:30:52,904
Speaker 4: suffering plastic circus that had become America.

603
00:30:53,784 --> 00:30:55,984
Speaker 2: And so the Rhodes scholarship is that what led you

604
00:30:55,984 --> 00:30:58,184
Speaker 2: into a more active political role because you could have

605
00:30:58,184 --> 00:30:59,704
Speaker 2: been an agitator from the outside.

606
00:31:00,024 --> 00:31:02,984
Speaker 4: Well I was sort of an agitator from the outside

607
00:31:02,984 --> 00:31:08,624
Speaker 4: of that. But I also met Bill Clinton. He was

608
00:31:08,664 --> 00:31:11,424
Speaker 4: another Rhodes scholar. We were on the boat because there

609
00:31:11,424 --> 00:31:13,024
Speaker 4: was a big you know, they put all the Rhodes

610
00:31:13,024 --> 00:31:15,424
Speaker 4: scholars on a boat together so we would get to

611
00:31:15,424 --> 00:31:18,664
Speaker 4: know each other. We took the s S United States,

612
00:31:19,624 --> 00:31:22,504
Speaker 4: the old Great old SS United States. We took it together,

613
00:31:23,144 --> 00:31:27,344
Speaker 4: and I was seasick. Everybody except Bill. And he came

614
00:31:27,384 --> 00:31:30,384
Speaker 4: down with chicken soup and one hand and crackers the other.

615
00:31:30,464 --> 00:31:33,504
Speaker 4: He knocked on my doors here you weren't. He has

616
00:31:33,544 --> 00:31:34,384
Speaker 4: a Southern drawl.

617
00:31:34,504 --> 00:31:35,184
Speaker 1: I can't do it.

618
00:31:36,104 --> 00:31:37,984
Speaker 4: I hear you weren't feeling so well, and I thought

619
00:31:37,984 --> 00:31:41,264
Speaker 4: these might help, and I what a yeah. And he

620
00:31:41,304 --> 00:31:44,744
Speaker 4: didn't say I feel your pain. That came that came later.

621
00:31:44,824 --> 00:31:45,344
Speaker 1: He didn't have that.

622
00:31:45,384 --> 00:31:48,024
Speaker 4: He he didn't have that yet anybody, but he was.

623
00:31:48,544 --> 00:31:52,104
Speaker 4: And we talked a lot about politics, obviously, and I

624
00:31:52,224 --> 00:31:54,624
Speaker 4: was I learned. I mean, even at the age of

625
00:31:54,624 --> 00:31:58,144
Speaker 4: twenty two, he knew he wanted to be governor of Arkansas.

626
00:31:58,624 --> 00:32:01,704
Speaker 4: And I was amazed that anybody at the age of

627
00:32:01,704 --> 00:32:05,304
Speaker 4: twenty two would think I'm going to be governor of whatever.

628
00:32:07,064 --> 00:32:08,624
Speaker 4: And we stayed in touch.

629
00:32:10,024 --> 00:32:11,704
Speaker 1: When do you think you wanted? What did you think

630
00:32:11,744 --> 00:32:13,024
Speaker 1: your life held ahead of you?

631
00:32:13,064 --> 00:32:15,664
Speaker 4: At that point, I had no idea. I knew I

632
00:32:15,704 --> 00:32:19,304
Speaker 4: wanted to do something to make the world better, but

633
00:32:19,424 --> 00:32:23,184
Speaker 4: I I didn't plan. I mean, I was not one

634
00:32:23,224 --> 00:32:27,544
Speaker 4: of those people who plans my life ahead. And I'm

635
00:32:27,584 --> 00:32:31,864
Speaker 4: glad I didn't, because you can't plan these things.

636
00:32:31,984 --> 00:32:33,784
Speaker 2: Well, like you said, some people do sort of go

637
00:32:33,904 --> 00:32:36,304
Speaker 2: like like it makes sense knowing who Bill Clinton is

638
00:32:36,344 --> 00:32:38,144
Speaker 2: at twenty two, you'd be like, I'm going to be

639
00:32:38,144 --> 00:32:39,824
Speaker 2: the governor. Yeah, and let me just put all the

640
00:32:39,824 --> 00:32:42,104
Speaker 2: pieces in place and surround myself with the right people

641
00:32:42,304 --> 00:32:43,424
Speaker 2: who will help me get to where now.

642
00:32:43,424 --> 00:32:45,184
Speaker 4: And I told to myself, Okay, he's going to be governor,

643
00:32:45,224 --> 00:32:48,904
Speaker 4: then he's going to be president. I'll be secretary. No,

644
00:32:49,064 --> 00:32:51,984
Speaker 4: it wasn't like that at all. And I went on,

645
00:32:52,144 --> 00:32:56,784
Speaker 4: but I did. I did feel government was a force

646
00:32:56,824 --> 00:33:01,544
Speaker 4: for good. No, it may be a cooint idea, but

647
00:33:02,904 --> 00:33:06,784
Speaker 4: I thought, you know, I wanted to be doing good stuff.

648
00:33:06,984 --> 00:33:10,864
Speaker 4: And I went to the Federal Trade Commission. I was

649
00:33:10,864 --> 00:33:13,944
Speaker 4: in the Solicitor General's office. I argued Supreme Court cases.

650
00:33:14,464 --> 00:33:18,944
Speaker 4: I you know, I did what I could. And then

651
00:33:19,064 --> 00:33:25,424
Speaker 4: I was Secretary of Labor for Bilklin and I did

652
00:33:25,424 --> 00:33:27,064
Speaker 4: what I could. I think that's.

653
00:33:26,864 --> 00:33:31,064
Speaker 1: All I which said car said. In the Carter.

654
00:33:30,944 --> 00:33:34,184
Speaker 4: Administration, I was in the Federal Trade Commission. I was

655
00:33:34,224 --> 00:33:38,384
Speaker 4: in charge of their policy shop, and I began to

656
00:33:38,464 --> 00:33:44,304
Speaker 4: see actually came out at that time that Congress was

657
00:33:44,344 --> 00:33:47,584
Speaker 4: shifting and the politics were shifting. Money, big money was

658
00:33:47,584 --> 00:33:50,864
Speaker 4: starting to get into politics. I didn't know it at

659
00:33:50,864 --> 00:33:55,864
Speaker 4: the time exactly, but it was the consequence of something

660
00:33:55,904 --> 00:34:00,704
Speaker 4: that happened in nineteen seventy one, when a very obscure

661
00:34:01,384 --> 00:34:06,104
Speaker 4: attorney in Richmond, Virginia named Lewis Powell wrote a memo

662
00:34:06,184 --> 00:34:08,584
Speaker 4: for the Chamber of Commerce of the United States in

663
00:34:08,623 --> 00:34:14,624
Speaker 4: which he said, business America is under threat from Nator

664
00:34:14,704 --> 00:34:18,223
Speaker 4: and native's raiders, and from the environmental Nator, from all

665
00:34:18,264 --> 00:34:22,143
Speaker 4: of these forces, and from civil rights, and we have

666
00:34:22,223 --> 00:34:25,183
Speaker 4: got to fight back or we're going to lose. And

667
00:34:25,344 --> 00:34:27,904
Speaker 4: corporate America is going to lose, and when the economy

668
00:34:27,944 --> 00:34:30,104
Speaker 4: is going to lose, and we fight back by pouring

669
00:34:30,263 --> 00:34:33,664
Speaker 4: huge amounts of money into American politics. And that Powell

670
00:34:33,783 --> 00:34:39,183
Speaker 4: memo really was the beginning of what we now the

671
00:34:39,223 --> 00:34:43,703
Speaker 4: monster we are saying. And at the Federal Trade Commission,

672
00:34:43,824 --> 00:34:49,984
Speaker 4: even when I was there in the late seventies, I

673
00:34:50,064 --> 00:34:55,703
Speaker 4: was aware of Congress starting to even a Democratic Congress,

674
00:34:55,944 --> 00:34:59,584
Speaker 4: starting to put a lot of pressure on an independent

675
00:34:59,623 --> 00:35:02,663
Speaker 4: regulatory agency. You know, we were doing stuff to protect

676
00:35:02,984 --> 00:35:08,303
Speaker 4: the public, to protect children from you know, horrible advertising,

677
00:35:08,384 --> 00:35:10,863
Speaker 4: to protect a competition, to make sure that there was

678
00:35:10,864 --> 00:35:14,223
Speaker 4: no monopolies. There were no monopolies. But Congress started to

679
00:35:14,344 --> 00:35:16,584
Speaker 4: push on us and say, no, you can't do that.

680
00:35:17,504 --> 00:35:21,423
Speaker 4: And I remember talking with some members of the House

681
00:35:21,544 --> 00:35:24,183
Speaker 4: I said, well, you know, we're doing good stuff, and

682
00:35:24,263 --> 00:35:27,544
Speaker 4: you should this is you know, you should be helping us.

683
00:35:28,464 --> 00:35:32,024
Speaker 4: And they they made some reference to the Chamber of

684
00:35:32,104 --> 00:35:36,944
Speaker 4: Commerce or the National Association of Small Businesses or the

685
00:35:37,024 --> 00:35:41,223
Speaker 4: National Restaurant Association or they all of these associations starting

686
00:35:41,263 --> 00:35:44,784
Speaker 4: to become part of the political conversation in Washington.

687
00:35:45,223 --> 00:35:49,584
Speaker 2: So all these sort of all these seemingly innocuous sounding organizations. Oh,

688
00:35:49,584 --> 00:35:52,223
Speaker 2: the National Restaurants Association sounds like that sounds fine.

689
00:35:52,623 --> 00:35:55,384
Speaker 4: Yeah, But I realized I begin to understand they're not fine.

690
00:35:55,623 --> 00:36:00,984
Speaker 4: They're not inocuous. They are actually they are. They are problems.

691
00:36:01,303 --> 00:36:03,464
Speaker 4: They are you know, they have more and more money,

692
00:36:03,504 --> 00:36:08,383
Speaker 4: and they are skewing politics in favor of their businesses.

693
00:36:08,864 --> 00:36:13,303
Speaker 4: And then we have wealthy people, very very wealthy individuals

694
00:36:13,384 --> 00:36:16,064
Speaker 4: who were also pouring starting to pour a lot of

695
00:36:16,064 --> 00:36:19,703
Speaker 4: money into politics and changing the rules of the game.

696
00:36:20,544 --> 00:36:24,743
Speaker 4: And I began realizing that there is no such thing

697
00:36:25,223 --> 00:36:30,584
Speaker 4: as a free market, you know, separate from government. Government

698
00:36:30,623 --> 00:36:34,783
Speaker 4: is setting the rules of the market every day, thousands

699
00:36:34,783 --> 00:36:40,383
Speaker 4: of ways, lots of little decisions, regulations and loan guarantees

700
00:36:40,544 --> 00:36:44,663
Speaker 4: and international trade and I mean, you name it, and

701
00:36:44,703 --> 00:36:50,703
Speaker 4: monopolization and anti trust, all these ways government is actually

702
00:36:51,344 --> 00:36:55,024
Speaker 4: determining what the market is going to be. And that

703
00:36:55,183 --> 00:37:02,584
Speaker 4: was my great revelation of the nineteen eighties seventies, because

704
00:37:02,623 --> 00:37:04,944
Speaker 4: then Reagan came in and he fired me.

705
00:37:06,104 --> 00:37:08,024
Speaker 1: That seems on brand, I mean, you know, and.

706
00:37:09,663 --> 00:37:12,504
Speaker 4: That's when I or to write a lot of a

707
00:37:12,504 --> 00:37:13,304
Speaker 4: lot of this stuff.

708
00:37:13,424 --> 00:37:13,704
Speaker 1: Yeah.

709
00:37:13,783 --> 00:37:15,584
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you got back in with with your

710
00:37:15,623 --> 00:37:17,744
Speaker 2: old boat buddy Bill Clinton.

711
00:37:18,783 --> 00:37:18,983
Speaker 4: Yeah.

712
00:37:19,263 --> 00:37:21,823
Speaker 2: Yet two that which was the that's the first time

713
00:37:21,864 --> 00:37:22,943
Speaker 2: I voted was ninety two.

714
00:37:23,024 --> 00:37:27,303
Speaker 4: That was I I heard you did I wanted to

715
00:37:27,344 --> 00:37:27,823
Speaker 4: write you And.

716
00:37:27,944 --> 00:37:29,584
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was going on all the time.

717
00:37:30,223 --> 00:37:33,343
Speaker 2: But and you know, at the time, I remember the

718
00:37:33,424 --> 00:37:36,944
Speaker 2: sale the cell for Clinton was like he's the new JFK.

719
00:37:37,623 --> 00:37:40,304
Speaker 2: That was the that was the also first black president.

720
00:37:40,303 --> 00:37:41,944
Speaker 2: There was a lot going on back there. Yeah, he

721
00:37:41,984 --> 00:37:44,143
Speaker 2: played he played saxophone in our citio, and you know,

722
00:37:44,183 --> 00:37:46,384
Speaker 2: he was the first black president and the new JFK,

723
00:37:46,944 --> 00:37:47,704
Speaker 2: which is a lot.

724
00:37:47,584 --> 00:37:48,463
Speaker 1: Of heat for one person.

725
00:37:48,783 --> 00:37:53,104
Speaker 4: I really did think of himself as the new JFK.

726
00:37:53,223 --> 00:37:56,183
Speaker 4: I mean, he when he was a student at Georgetown,

727
00:37:57,064 --> 00:38:00,224
Speaker 4: he met John F. Kennedy and there was they actually

728
00:38:00,263 --> 00:38:06,344
Speaker 4: found a film of that meeting that that that great moment,

729
00:38:06,703 --> 00:38:08,623
Speaker 4: and they put it on you know, for all his

730
00:38:08,904 --> 00:38:11,544
Speaker 4: all of his all of his comercials.

731
00:38:11,584 --> 00:38:12,984
Speaker 1: Yeah, right there.

732
00:38:14,424 --> 00:38:16,064
Speaker 4: So by the way, he was not.

733
00:38:19,064 --> 00:38:20,463
Speaker 2: Say that, I let you say that. I know you're

734
00:38:20,944 --> 00:38:23,904
Speaker 2: that that there's a U. Yeah that, Yes, I'd let

735
00:38:23,944 --> 00:38:27,663
Speaker 2: you say that. So you've gone through like the Carter

736
00:38:27,703 --> 00:38:32,064
Speaker 2: administration Clinton administration. At what point because there seems also

737
00:38:32,104 --> 00:38:35,544
Speaker 2: something with you. You have become a pop culture figure

738
00:38:35,584 --> 00:38:38,064
Speaker 2: in ways that I don't know no other Secretary of

739
00:38:38,104 --> 00:38:42,263
Speaker 2: Labor has ever become like a Francis Perkins. Of course,

740
00:38:42,344 --> 00:38:46,344
Speaker 2: of course, I mean Francis we All.

741
00:38:45,464 --> 00:38:48,384
Speaker 4: I mean she she was. She was the pop culture

742
00:38:48,984 --> 00:38:51,263
Speaker 4: so the second the Saint Francis Perkins.

743
00:38:51,303 --> 00:38:52,744
Speaker 1: So you have become a figure.

744
00:38:52,864 --> 00:38:55,303
Speaker 2: You appear on you know, at some of when you

745
00:38:55,303 --> 00:38:57,104
Speaker 2: go on these shows, like on just cable news shows

746
00:38:57,223 --> 00:38:59,544
Speaker 2: back in the day, you didn't mind like speaking your

747
00:38:59,584 --> 00:39:02,424
Speaker 2: mind and and and and holding people accountable for the

748
00:39:02,424 --> 00:39:04,263
Speaker 2: things they said on TV. There's lots of clips of

749
00:39:04,263 --> 00:39:05,143
Speaker 2: that in your film.

750
00:39:05,344 --> 00:39:06,464
Speaker 1: Uh well, I like to do that.

751
00:39:06,544 --> 00:39:11,424
Speaker 4: Actually I enjoyed the battle on television because I could

752
00:39:12,024 --> 00:39:18,064
Speaker 4: it was therapeutic. I learned that actually fighting fascists is

753
00:39:18,223 --> 00:39:19,223
Speaker 4: really feels good.

754
00:39:19,384 --> 00:39:20,064
Speaker 1: It feels good.

755
00:39:20,183 --> 00:39:23,104
Speaker 4: I mean, it makes me feel better about the world

756
00:39:23,143 --> 00:39:23,743
Speaker 4: and myself.

757
00:39:23,824 --> 00:39:24,464
Speaker 1: Yeah.

758
00:39:24,504 --> 00:39:26,864
Speaker 2: But then you you know, and this is the generation

759
00:39:26,944 --> 00:39:27,743
Speaker 2: I've become familiar with.

760
00:39:27,783 --> 00:39:27,983
Speaker 1: You.

761
00:39:27,783 --> 00:39:32,024
Speaker 2: You become like, you know, a talk show guest, and

762
00:39:32,064 --> 00:39:34,264
Speaker 2: you become like, you know, you're not you're doing sketches

763
00:39:34,303 --> 00:39:35,143
Speaker 2: with Codin O'Brien.

764
00:39:35,424 --> 00:39:39,104
Speaker 4: Well that, yeah, that was not exactly what I normally.

765
00:39:38,944 --> 00:39:39,823
Speaker 1: But that's what I'm saying.

766
00:39:39,824 --> 00:39:42,263
Speaker 2: But at some point that becomes a way to get

767
00:39:42,303 --> 00:39:44,544
Speaker 2: your voice out to a different audience, into a into

768
00:39:44,623 --> 00:39:45,384
Speaker 2: a younger audience.

769
00:39:45,424 --> 00:39:48,424
Speaker 1: And I just wonder, was that conscious? Did you say?

770
00:39:48,783 --> 00:39:50,464
Speaker 2: You know, did you sit down and go, how do

771
00:39:50,544 --> 00:39:51,864
Speaker 2: I reach the youth in America?

772
00:39:52,183 --> 00:39:53,384
Speaker 1: Get cod O'Brien on the No.

773
00:39:53,824 --> 00:39:56,383
Speaker 4: No, But I'll tell you what I did discover with

774
00:39:56,864 --> 00:39:59,423
Speaker 4: that Codin O'Brien skits and a couple of other things

775
00:39:59,504 --> 00:40:03,704
Speaker 4: I did. I really love humor. Yeah, I mean, I

776
00:40:03,864 --> 00:40:08,303
Speaker 4: so respect you. I mean, not only are you just

777
00:40:08,783 --> 00:40:13,104
Speaker 4: brilliant and your substack is fabulous, but you're you're you're

778
00:40:13,584 --> 00:40:16,504
Speaker 4: to be a great comedian, you really have to be smart,

779
00:40:17,424 --> 00:40:20,903
Speaker 4: and uh, you are a great comedian and you are

780
00:40:21,024 --> 00:40:21,704
Speaker 4: really smart.

781
00:40:21,743 --> 00:40:23,183
Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate that because I know you also have

782
00:40:23,223 --> 00:40:25,344
Speaker 2: some great comedians, or at least one in your family,

783
00:40:25,424 --> 00:40:27,424
Speaker 2: so in addition to you as.

784
00:40:27,263 --> 00:40:30,064
Speaker 4: A Sam, one of my sons, Yeah, my other son

785
00:40:30,143 --> 00:40:32,183
Speaker 4: is actually pretty funny, but he does he's not.

786
00:40:32,703 --> 00:40:35,464
Speaker 2: He's not, he's not he's not a content provider of funny.

787
00:40:35,464 --> 00:40:37,504
Speaker 2: In the same way saying, a lot of people in

788
00:40:37,783 --> 00:40:42,104
Speaker 2: politics now are aching to be pop culture figures. They're

789
00:40:42,183 --> 00:40:45,343
Speaker 2: like with podcasts and they're trying to make videos. And

790
00:40:45,384 --> 00:40:48,743
Speaker 2: you see people I'm thinking about orders right now, the uh,

791
00:40:49,303 --> 00:40:51,584
Speaker 2: the new the Ken Martin from the head of the

792
00:40:51,663 --> 00:40:54,504
Speaker 2: d n C who makes these videos where he's clearly

793
00:40:54,544 --> 00:40:57,864
Speaker 2: trying to like you know, and you're laughing.

794
00:40:57,743 --> 00:40:58,823
Speaker 1: But you can't.

795
00:40:58,824 --> 00:41:01,383
Speaker 4: But you know, as you can't try, I can't try.

796
00:41:01,464 --> 00:41:03,544
Speaker 4: I mean either you know you have it, you know

797
00:41:03,864 --> 00:41:06,263
Speaker 4: you connect, either connect or you don't or you don't.

798
00:41:06,303 --> 00:41:08,864
Speaker 1: And it's if you don't, it's really clear that you don't.

799
00:41:08,623 --> 00:41:12,663
Speaker 4: And it's pitiful and kind of and it's kind of yes, yes,

800
00:41:12,984 --> 00:41:15,464
Speaker 4: I mean watching somebody who's desperately trying to connect.

801
00:41:15,584 --> 00:41:18,104
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's definitely trying to connect it clearly, there's like

802
00:41:18,104 --> 00:41:20,864
Speaker 2: a I could just feel the interns or his assistants

803
00:41:20,864 --> 00:41:22,343
Speaker 2: off that be like, we need you to.

804
00:41:22,303 --> 00:41:24,903
Speaker 1: Really we need you to be funny, we need you to.

805
00:41:24,864 --> 00:41:26,984
Speaker 2: Connect, we need you to be personable, and then none

806
00:41:27,024 --> 00:41:28,904
Speaker 2: of that works if you're not those things automatically. You

807
00:41:28,944 --> 00:41:31,344
Speaker 2: can't just tell people be more personable, be more funny.

808
00:41:31,384 --> 00:41:34,264
Speaker 4: I don't think. I don't think you can train somebody

809
00:41:34,464 --> 00:41:34,863
Speaker 4: to do that.

810
00:41:35,064 --> 00:41:38,823
Speaker 2: You can make people better public speakers, but ultimately, every

811
00:41:38,864 --> 00:41:40,663
Speaker 2: day there's somebody who goes viral, who just turns on

812
00:41:40,703 --> 00:41:41,104
Speaker 2: their cellphone.

813
00:41:41,143 --> 00:41:42,864
Speaker 1: It's just like, ah, they're just sort of talking.

814
00:41:43,104 --> 00:41:48,223
Speaker 4: That's the most amazing aspects of being in contemporary society.

815
00:41:48,504 --> 00:41:53,663
Speaker 4: It's now possible for literally anybody, hopefully good people, but

816
00:41:53,703 --> 00:41:56,504
Speaker 4: there are also some real terrible people for sure. Uh,

817
00:41:56,783 --> 00:41:59,984
Speaker 4: you know, to become whatever what did you just call

818
00:42:00,143 --> 00:42:00,824
Speaker 4: a pop culture?

819
00:42:00,904 --> 00:42:01,424
Speaker 1: Pop culture?

820
00:42:01,464 --> 00:42:01,663
Speaker 3: Yeah?

821
00:42:01,743 --> 00:42:04,904
Speaker 1: Yeah, So my question is like, how did that happen

822
00:42:04,944 --> 00:42:05,343
Speaker 1: to you? Then?

823
00:42:05,424 --> 00:42:07,863
Speaker 2: How did you end up being somebody who talk show

824
00:42:07,864 --> 00:42:09,863
Speaker 2: hosts are like, if we got to get a smart guy,

825
00:42:09,904 --> 00:42:10,703
Speaker 2: let's get this funny one.

826
00:42:10,743 --> 00:42:11,064
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

827
00:42:11,783 --> 00:42:14,343
Speaker 4: You know, you know it's I don't I mean, you're

828
00:42:14,424 --> 00:42:19,663
Speaker 4: asking me to kind of reveal something that it was

829
00:42:19,743 --> 00:42:22,024
Speaker 4: not there. I mean there was never a plan. I

830
00:42:22,104 --> 00:42:25,984
Speaker 4: never thought anything about it. I just, uh, you know,

831
00:42:26,223 --> 00:42:29,383
Speaker 4: CNN started to call, and I said, okay, I'll do that.

832
00:42:29,504 --> 00:42:32,183
Speaker 4: I mean, I've never there was a short period of

833
00:42:32,223 --> 00:42:36,463
Speaker 4: drum where I was actually on uh the payroll. See

834
00:42:36,623 --> 00:42:40,104
Speaker 4: now I was a contributor. But then they saw the

835
00:42:40,183 --> 00:42:41,064
Speaker 4: light and they.

836
00:42:42,783 --> 00:42:43,903
Speaker 1: Contributed more than we wanted.

837
00:42:43,984 --> 00:42:47,343
Speaker 4: That's right. I started to get I think some of

838
00:42:47,384 --> 00:42:50,584
Speaker 4: the yeah, some of the wealthy backers and some of

839
00:42:50,623 --> 00:42:53,983
Speaker 4: the corporate you know, they gave you nervous.

840
00:42:53,663 --> 00:43:15,623
Speaker 2: They gave your slot to Scott Jennings. But there's a

841
00:43:15,663 --> 00:43:18,544
Speaker 2: difference between I want to highlight this between CNN calling

842
00:43:19,104 --> 00:43:21,623
Speaker 2: and NBC calling, like for the Tonight Show or for

843
00:43:21,824 --> 00:43:24,423
Speaker 2: Conan o'braen, Like, how do you find yourself in that

844
00:43:24,544 --> 00:43:27,343
Speaker 2: world as somebody who feel who they feel like is

845
00:43:27,344 --> 00:43:29,303
Speaker 2: a part of this extended universe that you're not. When

846
00:43:29,303 --> 00:43:31,584
Speaker 2: they're calling you, they want you, but there also call

847
00:43:31,663 --> 00:43:33,424
Speaker 2: you because you're a good interview and you can be

848
00:43:33,504 --> 00:43:35,064
Speaker 2: funny and they can have fun with you.

849
00:43:35,663 --> 00:43:37,863
Speaker 4: I guess that's right. I don't know. I mean I

850
00:43:37,864 --> 00:43:42,504
Speaker 4: didn't interview them and say, hey, why did you call me? Yeah,

851
00:43:42,584 --> 00:43:50,744
Speaker 4: I would say that I undoubtedly over the last twenty

852
00:43:50,824 --> 00:43:54,663
Speaker 4: thirty forty years have created a lot of tension in

853
00:43:54,743 --> 00:43:55,344
Speaker 4: C suites.

854
00:43:56,424 --> 00:43:56,544
Speaker 1: Uh.

855
00:43:56,824 --> 00:44:01,623
Speaker 4: And there are a lot of board of director types

856
00:44:02,223 --> 00:44:07,303
Speaker 4: and others who are nervous about this guy. Yeah, and

857
00:44:07,464 --> 00:44:10,343
Speaker 4: I would you know, I don't think of myself as

858
00:44:10,344 --> 00:44:14,744
Speaker 4: having any clout and I don't have any clout. I don't.

859
00:44:14,944 --> 00:44:16,984
Speaker 4: I don't know why they would be nervous, but they

860
00:44:16,984 --> 00:44:21,703
Speaker 4: get nervous. I know they're nervous. I've been told by

861
00:44:22,544 --> 00:44:28,944
Speaker 4: some you know, major figures, journalists and others on major

862
00:44:28,984 --> 00:44:32,624
Speaker 4: networks that I wish we could have you more often,

863
00:44:32,703 --> 00:44:37,064
Speaker 4: but we we the people there.

864
00:44:40,104 --> 00:44:43,024
Speaker 2: And and so I I think it's fascinating because you know,

865
00:44:43,424 --> 00:44:46,383
Speaker 2: we know in the Trump administration, they're they're all trying

866
00:44:46,424 --> 00:44:48,584
Speaker 2: to be a version of you, like a sort of

867
00:44:48,623 --> 00:44:52,464
Speaker 2: a pop culture voice of authority. You know that is

868
00:44:52,544 --> 00:44:54,823
Speaker 2: that and and it doesn't work for most of them,

869
00:44:54,904 --> 00:44:56,263
Speaker 2: but you know the idea that And.

870
00:44:57,143 --> 00:45:03,024
Speaker 4: Pete Hath don't you think, I mean we he's watching

871
00:45:03,024 --> 00:45:05,544
Speaker 4: your video. I mean he's he's almost getting.

872
00:45:05,263 --> 00:45:08,703
Speaker 2: It so close. He's so close. Yeah, he's so close.

873
00:45:08,743 --> 00:45:10,223
Speaker 2: And the facial expressions.

874
00:45:10,183 --> 00:45:19,383
Speaker 4: And these people are I mean, honestly, they are. I mean,

875
00:45:19,424 --> 00:45:20,944
Speaker 4: we don't have to go go there.

876
00:45:20,944 --> 00:45:21,783
Speaker 1: You go, we can go there.

877
00:45:22,143 --> 00:45:27,223
Speaker 4: But I mean, I having having devoted a large chunk

878
00:45:27,263 --> 00:45:31,824
Speaker 4: of my life to public service, having worked with four

879
00:45:31,944 --> 00:45:38,024
Speaker 4: different presidents, Uh, it hurts me when I think of

880
00:45:38,064 --> 00:45:41,904
Speaker 4: what they are doing to the United States.

881
00:45:42,064 --> 00:45:42,303
Speaker 1: Yeah.

882
00:45:42,703 --> 00:45:45,703
Speaker 2: Yeah, Before I let you go, because I know you,

883
00:45:45,984 --> 00:45:50,463
Speaker 2: I want to keep respect your time. I always there's

884
00:45:50,464 --> 00:45:51,743
Speaker 2: a couple things I want to ask people when they

885
00:45:51,743 --> 00:45:53,663
Speaker 2: show up here, and I know you're going to have this.

886
00:45:53,904 --> 00:45:57,024
Speaker 2: Give the people who are watching this some homework to

887
00:45:57,303 --> 00:46:01,744
Speaker 2: save democracy, or to resuscitate democracy, or to reinvent whatever

888
00:46:01,783 --> 00:46:04,183
Speaker 2: the word is. Can you give them? What would you say?

889
00:46:04,183 --> 00:46:06,384
Speaker 2: Are things that people who are listening to this, who

890
00:46:06,944 --> 00:46:08,743
Speaker 2: like who are caught because a lot of people I talk

891
00:46:08,743 --> 00:46:11,424
Speaker 2: to you just like, ah, they're overwhelmed by everything or

892
00:46:11,464 --> 00:46:13,823
Speaker 2: have turned off the news, which I understand. But give

893
00:46:13,824 --> 00:46:15,464
Speaker 2: them some homework to figure.

894
00:46:15,663 --> 00:46:21,223
Speaker 4: Number one, don't give up, as I said, that's what

895
00:46:21,544 --> 00:46:24,263
Speaker 4: they the other side really wants. No, we're not going

896
00:46:24,303 --> 00:46:28,544
Speaker 4: to give up. Number two. Focus your energy over the

897
00:46:28,584 --> 00:46:33,343
Speaker 4: next few months on getting out the vote for the midterms.

898
00:46:33,504 --> 00:46:39,623
Speaker 4: That is the most immediate, most important short term.

899
00:46:38,663 --> 00:46:41,303
Speaker 1: Issue, especially with the fact that the Supreme Court just.

900
00:46:41,703 --> 00:46:44,024
Speaker 4: Especially with what the Supreme Court did. I mean, I

901
00:46:45,143 --> 00:46:49,184
Speaker 4: testified when John Roberts was being considered for Chief Justice.

902
00:46:49,223 --> 00:46:55,584
Speaker 4: I testified and I said, you know, to the Judiciary Committee,

903
00:46:55,623 --> 00:46:58,504
Speaker 4: I said, this is not the right person. He does

904
00:46:58,623 --> 00:47:01,463
Speaker 4: not the right temperament. He's way to the right of

905
00:47:01,544 --> 00:47:05,623
Speaker 4: where the public is. Don't do it. Clarence Thomas was

906
00:47:05,623 --> 00:47:08,303
Speaker 4: in my class in law school, Oh, my god, and

907
00:47:08,384 --> 00:47:11,904
Speaker 4: I knew him. I mean Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton

908
00:47:11,944 --> 00:47:13,944
Speaker 4: and Clarence Thomas and I were in the same class.

909
00:47:14,104 --> 00:47:17,143
Speaker 4: And there are about thirty forty people in that particular classroom,

910
00:47:17,584 --> 00:47:20,944
Speaker 4: and the professors would ask questions and Hillary would always

911
00:47:20,944 --> 00:47:22,624
Speaker 4: have her hand up in the air and she would

912
00:47:22,623 --> 00:47:25,463
Speaker 4: have a perfect, perfect answer when she was called on.

913
00:47:25,944 --> 00:47:28,383
Speaker 4: And I put in my hand with half the time

914
00:47:28,464 --> 00:47:32,664
Speaker 4: and my answers. And Bill Bill was never in class,

915
00:47:33,984 --> 00:47:37,104
Speaker 4: and Clarence never said a word, never.

916
00:47:37,024 --> 00:47:40,263
Speaker 1: Which is how he's known for for not saying too much.

917
00:47:40,344 --> 00:47:44,303
Speaker 2: Yeah, but what was your reaction sort of subway when

918
00:47:44,344 --> 00:47:46,504
Speaker 2: you heard the Supreme Court just did they gutting the

919
00:47:46,584 --> 00:47:47,303
Speaker 2: voting right sack?

920
00:47:47,464 --> 00:47:52,143
Speaker 4: Oh? I was personally because of my connection to Mickey Schwarner,

921
00:47:52,424 --> 00:47:57,944
Speaker 4: was I felt grief. I mean grief.

922
00:47:58,584 --> 00:47:59,584
Speaker 1: It's the only word.

923
00:47:59,424 --> 00:48:03,344
Speaker 4: That comes to me. Because when they had gutted Section

924
00:48:03,504 --> 00:48:09,984
Speaker 4: five in Shelby versus Holder, I thought that was unbelievable

925
00:48:11,143 --> 00:48:14,944
Speaker 4: that the Supreme Court could do that when Congress had

926
00:48:15,303 --> 00:48:20,183
Speaker 4: repeatedly affirmed Congress's commitment to the Voting Rights Act, and

927
00:48:20,223 --> 00:48:23,504
Speaker 4: the same thing with Section two. You know the uh,

928
00:48:23,743 --> 00:48:30,223
Speaker 4: you know the Supreme Court, these people, the the Republican appointees. Uh,

929
00:48:30,263 --> 00:48:33,943
Speaker 4: they are on a mission. Yeah, they are really on

930
00:48:34,024 --> 00:48:34,623
Speaker 4: a mission.

931
00:48:34,904 --> 00:48:39,703
Speaker 1: And it's despicable for sure. For sure. So, uh, don't

932
00:48:39,703 --> 00:48:41,504
Speaker 1: give up. Get out the vote.

933
00:48:41,504 --> 00:48:45,624
Speaker 4: Do't give up, get out the vote. I would say. Also, uh,

934
00:48:46,024 --> 00:48:49,303
Speaker 4: don't believe for a second that when you call your

935
00:48:49,303 --> 00:48:52,823
Speaker 4: member of Congress that that's not taken into account. That's

936
00:48:52,864 --> 00:48:57,424
Speaker 4: important call your member members of Congress, your your representatives,

937
00:48:57,424 --> 00:49:00,944
Speaker 4: and your senators because you know, the staff keeps track

938
00:49:01,344 --> 00:49:04,343
Speaker 4: of how many calls. If you are a constituent, you

939
00:49:04,464 --> 00:49:08,104
Speaker 4: have an impact, and so do that you can be powerful.

940
00:49:10,104 --> 00:49:13,544
Speaker 2: Especially true, like you said, places where you may disagree

941
00:49:13,544 --> 00:49:14,703
Speaker 2: with your Member of Congress.

942
00:49:14,743 --> 00:49:18,423
Speaker 4: So specially when you're disagreeing, say I disagree, and if

943
00:49:18,424 --> 00:49:20,904
Speaker 4: you do that, I'm not going to vote for you when.

944
00:49:20,783 --> 00:49:23,784
Speaker 1: You're up next. I mean it makes a difference.

945
00:49:23,904 --> 00:49:24,704
Speaker 4: It makes a difference.

946
00:49:24,703 --> 00:49:26,464
Speaker 1: That's good today, I think to be reminded of that

947
00:49:26,504 --> 00:49:26,983
Speaker 1: because well.

948
00:49:26,864 --> 00:49:30,104
Speaker 4: That people have powered it's easy at this environment for

949
00:49:30,104 --> 00:49:32,343
Speaker 4: people to say, oh, it doesn't matter what I do,

950
00:49:32,783 --> 00:49:35,783
Speaker 4: I don't have to up and finally, do keep up

951
00:49:35,824 --> 00:49:38,504
Speaker 4: with the news. You don't have to read everything always,

952
00:49:38,544 --> 00:49:43,504
Speaker 4: but just just beware aware of what's happening.

953
00:49:43,824 --> 00:49:47,104
Speaker 2: I agree, like I'm a sort of too much news.

954
00:49:47,464 --> 00:49:49,584
Speaker 2: My wife is like once a day news person, like

955
00:49:49,623 --> 00:49:51,223
Speaker 2: in the morning sort of shake, which I think is

956
00:49:51,223 --> 00:49:55,024
Speaker 2: probably a healthy amount, but I do feel like keeping it.

957
00:49:55,344 --> 00:49:57,544
Speaker 2: I understand my mom at eighty nine is like I

958
00:49:57,584 --> 00:49:59,064
Speaker 2: just don't watch the news. I'm like, I sort of

959
00:49:59,064 --> 00:50:01,383
Speaker 2: respect that you've seen enough news in her life, but

960
00:50:01,464 --> 00:50:02,064
Speaker 2: like I have.

961
00:50:02,024 --> 00:50:03,463
Speaker 1: To keep her updated every now and again.

962
00:50:03,984 --> 00:50:05,983
Speaker 4: All you need they really need to do is read

963
00:50:06,024 --> 00:50:08,064
Speaker 4: you or in my substance, that's true. I mean, that's

964
00:50:08,143 --> 00:50:10,144
Speaker 4: that again. Everything that will need.

965
00:50:10,303 --> 00:50:12,703
Speaker 1: That will, I'll cover all the news. That'll cover all.

966
00:50:12,864 --> 00:50:16,903
Speaker 2: So don't give up. Get out the vote. That means

967
00:50:16,904 --> 00:50:19,663
Speaker 2: you need to register yourself and also registering people in

968
00:50:19,663 --> 00:50:21,904
Speaker 2: your life who aren't registered and help them, encourage them

969
00:50:21,944 --> 00:50:24,064
Speaker 2: to vote, and keep up with the news.

970
00:50:24,303 --> 00:50:27,903
Speaker 1: That's what we need to do. Okay.

971
00:50:26,944 --> 00:50:32,064
Speaker 2: My ultimate question here is is there an organization or

972
00:50:32,104 --> 00:50:34,304
Speaker 2: a cause that you would like to recommend people support

973
00:50:34,584 --> 00:50:37,824
Speaker 2: or that they connect with in these times?

974
00:50:38,143 --> 00:50:41,064
Speaker 4: Well, there are a lot of very important organizations that

975
00:50:41,143 --> 00:50:46,584
Speaker 4: are doing great work. The ACLU continues to be critical

976
00:50:46,703 --> 00:50:51,783
Speaker 4: and critically important. An organization that I was chairman of, quote,

977
00:50:51,864 --> 00:50:55,024
Speaker 4: Common Cause, also is doing great work.

978
00:50:55,544 --> 00:50:57,904
Speaker 1: What do we do? What does common Cause do?

979
00:50:58,024 --> 00:51:04,984
Speaker 4: Common Cause is very much into making the system our

980
00:51:05,024 --> 00:51:10,703
Speaker 4: democracy work for everyone. So, for example, on redistricting for

981
00:51:10,864 --> 00:51:14,464
Speaker 4: you years and I was going around the country telling states,

982
00:51:15,303 --> 00:51:23,463
Speaker 4: don't get into this kind of crazy jerrymandering. I mean,

983
00:51:24,064 --> 00:51:28,944
Speaker 4: put all of the political gerrymandering into an independent commission,

984
00:51:30,183 --> 00:51:34,143
Speaker 4: you know, designing the shapes of these districts. Because once

985
00:51:34,183 --> 00:51:37,703
Speaker 4: you go down you know, the gerrymandering route, there's no

986
00:51:37,824 --> 00:51:41,303
Speaker 4: end to it. And people come back to me now

987
00:51:41,344 --> 00:51:42,983
Speaker 4: and they say, well, wait a minute, if you were right,

988
00:51:43,064 --> 00:51:45,944
Speaker 4: if you really believe that, well, how can you justify

989
00:51:45,984 --> 00:51:49,024
Speaker 4: what California and Virginia have done? And I say, well,

990
00:51:49,064 --> 00:51:52,584
Speaker 4: what you need to do to enforce that idea is

991
00:51:52,703 --> 00:51:57,584
Speaker 4: make it absolutely take away all motivation, all motivation for

992
00:51:57,663 --> 00:52:01,904
Speaker 4: the Blue states to try to gerrymander squeeze out additional

993
00:52:02,143 --> 00:52:06,104
Speaker 4: additional Republican votes. And the only way you do that

994
00:52:06,263 --> 00:52:09,143
Speaker 4: is through you know, sort of like we you know,

995
00:52:09,303 --> 00:52:14,264
Speaker 4: like we do with deterrence on arms control. Yeah, mutually destruction.

996
00:52:15,424 --> 00:52:18,424
Speaker 4: You know. You you try to do remandering that is

997
00:52:18,464 --> 00:52:22,944
Speaker 4: a partisan or racial germantering. And we in our blue states,

998
00:52:22,984 --> 00:52:24,984
Speaker 4: we're gonna match you vote for. We're not going to

999
00:52:25,024 --> 00:52:27,104
Speaker 4: exceed you. We're gonna match you vote for.

1000
00:52:27,223 --> 00:52:27,463
Speaker 1: Vote.

1001
00:52:27,623 --> 00:52:30,223
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's the I mean, I say the

1002
00:52:30,223 --> 00:52:32,743
Speaker 2: thing about California. I was just glad to see Democrats

1003
00:52:32,783 --> 00:52:36,343
Speaker 2: try something. Oh, it's just nice to see. It's just

1004
00:52:36,424 --> 00:52:38,383
Speaker 2: like when you feel like so many times Democrats don't

1005
00:52:38,384 --> 00:52:41,264
Speaker 2: try anything, like I appreciate the effort to do something

1006
00:52:41,344 --> 00:52:43,383
Speaker 2: and not just stand back on we're a.

1007
00:52:43,384 --> 00:52:45,584
Speaker 1: Gog or we're.

1008
00:52:44,864 --> 00:52:48,183
Speaker 2: Ashamed of you or I'm taking aback or how I

1009
00:52:48,703 --> 00:52:49,824
Speaker 2: would never you know.

1010
00:52:49,703 --> 00:52:54,143
Speaker 4: Well, there was Michelle Obama's quote, you know famous you know, well,

1011
00:52:54,223 --> 00:52:55,903
Speaker 4: they we go high when they go low.

1012
00:52:56,864 --> 00:52:57,783
Speaker 1: I like that.

1013
00:52:58,623 --> 00:53:02,663
Speaker 4: But but as a as a political doctrine, no.

1014
00:53:02,864 --> 00:53:07,464
Speaker 1: Yeah, strad is a spiritual doctrine. But that's right.

1015
00:53:07,504 --> 00:53:10,143
Speaker 4: It could be a kind of a religious idea. But no,

1016
00:53:10,504 --> 00:53:14,064
Speaker 4: when they go we matched them. We don't exceed them.

1017
00:53:14,104 --> 00:53:17,463
Speaker 4: We don't want an arms race, but we match them

1018
00:53:17,904 --> 00:53:21,344
Speaker 4: so that they don't have an incentive to go even lower.

1019
00:53:21,544 --> 00:53:24,783
Speaker 2: Yes, I think even Michelle Obama has like realized maybe

1020
00:53:24,824 --> 00:53:28,143
Speaker 2: I was aiming too high. Then she said, when they

1021
00:53:28,143 --> 00:53:31,783
Speaker 2: go low, I don't go to the inauguration. I don't

1022
00:53:31,783 --> 00:53:35,064
Speaker 2: show up at the inauguration. They went too low. What

1023
00:53:35,143 --> 00:53:37,423
Speaker 2: are your thoughts on war? Pro war, anti war? And

1024
00:53:37,424 --> 00:53:39,663
Speaker 2: you said, there's a lot of war happening right now

1025
00:53:39,663 --> 00:53:41,384
Speaker 2: in this world. There as at war war that the

1026
00:53:41,464 --> 00:53:42,663
Speaker 2: United States evolved in.

1027
00:53:42,904 --> 00:53:49,183
Speaker 4: I am very supportive of Ukraine for obvious reasons, and

1028
00:53:49,703 --> 00:53:54,544
Speaker 4: I think that the war in Iran is really stupid.

1029
00:53:54,663 --> 00:53:57,663
Speaker 4: I mean, really really stupid. We are going to be

1030
00:53:58,024 --> 00:54:04,903
Speaker 4: inevitably worse off and less secure and in every way

1031
00:54:04,944 --> 00:54:08,984
Speaker 4: more endangered than we were before the war when the

1032
00:54:09,064 --> 00:54:12,064
Speaker 4: dust clears, and it's already starting to clear. I think

1033
00:54:12,183 --> 00:54:17,544
Speaker 4: Neta Yahu is a dangerous war criminal. And I think

1034
00:54:17,544 --> 00:54:22,584
Speaker 4: what he's done has made Israel a pariah. And uh

1035
00:54:23,024 --> 00:54:25,663
Speaker 4: I say that as a Jewish person. I mean, I

1036
00:54:25,703 --> 00:54:30,143
Speaker 4: think this is you know, I don't equate you're anybody

1037
00:54:30,143 --> 00:54:35,303
Speaker 4: who really is anti Yahoo is not anti Semitic. I

1038
00:54:35,344 --> 00:54:38,823
Speaker 4: mean that is really important to distinguish. Yes, yes, so,

1039
00:54:39,424 --> 00:54:42,263
Speaker 4: uh I think and I think the United States has

1040
00:54:42,263 --> 00:54:44,584
Speaker 4: got to be a leader. I think that the notion

1041
00:54:44,703 --> 00:54:51,263
Speaker 4: that we can kind of uh move into isolationism is

1042
00:54:51,384 --> 00:54:53,703
Speaker 4: also a very dangerous idea.

1043
00:54:54,064 --> 00:54:56,303
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I would say that like one of the

1044
00:54:57,783 --> 00:54:59,623
Speaker 2: I don't know again, you sort of say you don't

1045
00:54:59,623 --> 00:55:01,544
Speaker 2: know how you enteredpore, you had where you ended up.

1046
00:55:01,824 --> 00:55:03,863
Speaker 2: It has just sort of happened in my life that

1047
00:55:04,183 --> 00:55:05,904
Speaker 2: some of the most important people in my life have

1048
00:55:05,984 --> 00:55:09,623
Speaker 2: been Jewish Men. One of my best friend high school

1049
00:55:09,623 --> 00:55:11,544
Speaker 2: is a Jewish man named Jason Smith. One of my

1050
00:55:11,584 --> 00:55:14,423
Speaker 2: good friends out here is Nato Green. Another good friend

1051
00:55:14,424 --> 00:55:16,424
Speaker 2: of mine is Anam Mounsbach. I considered you to be

1052
00:55:16,464 --> 00:55:18,223
Speaker 2: a friend of mine, and all of you seem to

1053
00:55:18,223 --> 00:55:21,223
Speaker 2: be very I was, like I was around all the

1054
00:55:21,223 --> 00:55:24,624
Speaker 2: anti net and Yahoo Jews. I've just been raised around

1055
00:55:24,623 --> 00:55:27,183
Speaker 2: those types of people who are who didn't I never

1056
00:55:27,703 --> 00:55:31,264
Speaker 2: even knew how to not think about Palestinians as human beings.

1057
00:55:31,263 --> 00:55:34,183
Speaker 4: Well, I think that there is an important point to

1058
00:55:34,223 --> 00:55:40,584
Speaker 4: be made here because Jewish people have been the targets

1059
00:55:41,263 --> 00:55:48,743
Speaker 4: of programs as anti Semitism and horrible, horrible things that

1060
00:55:48,783 --> 00:55:55,504
Speaker 4: have happened genocide for you know, for two thousand years

1061
00:55:55,623 --> 00:56:00,464
Speaker 4: or more, and so that social justice is so important

1062
00:56:00,584 --> 00:56:03,984
Speaker 4: or has been traditionally so important to Jewish people, and

1063
00:56:04,064 --> 00:56:06,904
Speaker 4: natiyahuo is the opposite of social justice.

1064
00:56:08,064 --> 00:56:10,703
Speaker 2: We can be anti anti Semitism and we can also

1065
00:56:10,743 --> 00:56:11,823
Speaker 2: be for Palestinians.

1066
00:56:11,824 --> 00:56:14,504
Speaker 1: I feel like those things absolutely work together. All right,

1067
00:56:14,904 --> 00:56:15,223
Speaker 1: thank you.

1068
00:56:15,223 --> 00:56:16,623
Speaker 2: I would, I mean, we could just keep talking, but

1069
00:56:16,703 --> 00:56:17,703
Speaker 2: I know you got a lot of things to do,

1070
00:56:17,783 --> 00:56:19,743
Speaker 2: and I really appreciate you coming by today, and I.

1071
00:56:19,703 --> 00:56:20,944
Speaker 1: Hope to talk to you. First of all.

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Speaker 2: I know i'll talk to you again because I'm doing

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00:56:22,584 --> 00:56:25,064
Speaker 2: your I'm hosting your podcast. Absolutely, I'm going to you

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Speaker 2: to us, yes and so, but also we'll do this again.

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Speaker 1: Thank you ver so much me, thank you. I really

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Speaker 1: enjoyed it. Thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 2: So thank you for listening to Who's with me today?

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Speaker 2: That was Robert Reich again. He said support the ACLU, which,

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Speaker 2: of course, how can I argue against the ACLU. I'm

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00:56:42,384 --> 00:56:46,064
Speaker 2: the ACLU's artist ambassador for Racial Justice. I do their

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Speaker 2: commercials the ACLU is fighting for our rights all over

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00:56:49,183 --> 00:56:52,824
Speaker 2: this country, so please support the ACLU. Also support Common Cause,

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Speaker 2: which is just about a fair government and voters' rights

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Speaker 2: and all the good things we need to make this

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Speaker 2: whole thing turn around and turn away from authoritarianism and fascism.

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Speaker 2: What else we got again? Listen to Dead Pioneer's new album,

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Speaker 2: Wagon Burner Again. Track three is a good track and

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Speaker 2: thanks for listening today. Follow Robert on his sub stack,

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00:57:11,104 --> 00:57:14,104
Speaker 2: follow him on social media. Check out his podcast The

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00:57:14,104 --> 00:57:17,463
Speaker 2: Coffee Clatch, check out his book Coming Up Short, check

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Speaker 2: out his documentary The Last Class, and just check things out.

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Speaker 2: Thank you to Rabbergrenn Productions for producing this podcast. Thank

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00:57:25,184 --> 00:57:29,184
Speaker 2: you to Pushkin Industries for hosting this podcast. Thank you

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00:57:29,224 --> 00:57:31,784
Speaker 2: to who knows Best Productions, which is me, for doing

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Speaker 2: whatever I do for this podcast. And the theme music

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00:57:34,344 --> 00:57:36,304
Speaker 2: is Always is done by my friend Chris Dowd from

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Speaker 2: the legendary band Fish Bone and Always this week, do

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Speaker 2: something good for yourself, do something good for your community,

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Speaker 2: and do something good for the world.