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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media, Hello, and welcome to Cool People. Did

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Speaker 1: Cool Stuff the only podcast that I am currently recording

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Speaker 1: while sleep deprived because I fell into a really deep

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Speaker 1: research hall instead of sleeping. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy,

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Speaker 1: and with me today is Joel Monique, who is a

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Speaker 1: filmmaker and iHeart, executive producer and a writer. How are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm so good, Margaret. You know, sometimes we listen to

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Speaker 2: be very frank and not too excited. I don't like

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Speaker 2: when people are too happy. It makes me feel suspected,

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Speaker 2: like what's going on that you have so much joy

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Speaker 2: in your life?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like hippies, they're always pretending to be.

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Speaker 2: Happy for sure. What was it? Called it toxic happiness

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Speaker 2: with an aggressive happiness for You're like, this is it's

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Speaker 2: too much. But I've been doing a lot of different

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Speaker 2: stuff and trying new things and things. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna do this for a really long time. For example,

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Speaker 2: go on a vacation. I keep saying I'm going to

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Speaker 2: go on vacation, and then either I work through it

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Speaker 2: or it's a work trip, neither of which counts as

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Speaker 2: a vacation. So I've actually told people you can't contact

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Speaker 2: me through these days. I'm taking off, I have plans,

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Speaker 2: I've booked things. It's happening. I am leaving my state.

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Speaker 2: I'm only going to the next one, but it's still happening.

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Speaker 2: I'm very excited about it. And I'm gonna see making

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Speaker 2: the Stallion while I'm there, so you know, it's just

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Speaker 2: a sea of winds.

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Speaker 1: There's this HP Lovecraft movie that's terrible. I'lled dig on

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Speaker 1: and I don't actually sually watch horror movies, but I

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Speaker 1: watched this a long time ago. The scene that I remember,

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Speaker 1: besides the scenes that I couldn't watch because I'm squeamish,

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Speaker 1: was the very beginning. They're on this boat and he's

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Speaker 1: just like working on his laptop the whole time they're

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Speaker 1: on this like boat out off the coast of Spain

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Speaker 1: or something, and finally his wife is like fuck you

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Speaker 1: and throws his laptop into the ocean. And I think

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Speaker 1: about that scene because about once a month I think

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Speaker 1: to myself, what if I threw my laptop into the ocean,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't that be great? And then I remember how much

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Speaker 1: I enjoy eating food and how much I enjoy expressing

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Speaker 1: ideas and having other people interact with this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you'd be upset without the word. I just think,

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Speaker 2: what if I could work and it didn't have to

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Speaker 2: be a grind?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: What if you could work and people were like, that's

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Speaker 2: good enough for today, and you're like, I also feel

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Speaker 2: satisfied with the amount of work done today out of

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Speaker 2: return for more work tomorrow, Like I'm gonna be alive tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: It's just weird to me that we're just like just

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Speaker 2: keep going, like, but I'm done, I'm done, I'm done

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Speaker 2: for the day. I'm tired. Yeah, I feel you also

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Speaker 2: would completely just be Sometimes I'm like, I do I

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Speaker 2: need this laptop? So I throw it away? Do I

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Speaker 2: violently destroy it?

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Speaker 1: Or just put it in a.

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Speaker 2: Drawer and close it and pretend like it's not there anymore?

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Speaker 1: All the different ways we dream about destroying our phones

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Speaker 1: and laptops.

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Speaker 2: For sure.

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Speaker 1: Well, you may be a producer, but you're not our producer,

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Speaker 1: because our producer is Sophie. Hi.

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Speaker 2: Hi, that's a good that's not Sophie.

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Speaker 1: See, that's that's that's the joke is because actually we

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Speaker 1: have another producer who's just usually not on Mike, named Scharen,

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Speaker 1: but today Charene is our producer.

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Speaker 3: Here, no, h charene, I am here. Thank you for

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Speaker 3: having me.

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Speaker 2: I'm always looking for opportunities to hang with Scheren And

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Speaker 2: then you were like, Sharen can come hang out with us,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, this is the greatest day.

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Speaker 3: Way about you though, Oh my god, it was so

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Speaker 3: cool at the moment.

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Speaker 2: Correct very loved this is great.

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Speaker 1: So okay, other people involved in making this. Our audio

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Speaker 1: engineer is Danel. Everyone has to say hi to Daniel

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Speaker 1: Hi Danel.

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Speaker 3: Hy Danel Hi Danel.

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Speaker 1: We love Our theme music was written forced by un woman.

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Speaker 1: So the last time we had you on, I think

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Speaker 1: was an episode about the Black Panthers Breakfast program, the

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Speaker 1: Mutual Aid program.

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Speaker 2: Yes, do you know what they're Okay? I asked my father.

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Speaker 2: I was like, hey, will you tell me about that

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Speaker 2: time that you got food from the Black Panthers And

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Speaker 2: he was like, absolutely I would, And then I never

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Speaker 2: thought about it again. I need to sit him down

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Speaker 2: and actually get recorded, because yeah, he's got like all

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Speaker 2: of these different stories and stuff. I can maybe ask

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Speaker 2: my uncle too. But that was a great episode. I

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Speaker 2: really like learning about that program. That program actually led

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Speaker 2: me to the documentary The Dear Mama Tupac documentary have

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Speaker 2: you seen and.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen it yet. I want to do a

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Speaker 1: specific I like have a book about the Shakur family specifically.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like waiting to yes, yes, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's fabulous and one of the and I've watched a

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Speaker 2: ton of dots about like the Black Panthers and stuff,

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Speaker 2: but one of the best about the women behind the

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Speaker 2: Black Panther movement, about the actual organization that went into

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Speaker 2: the breakfast program and how it was useful, why it

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Speaker 2: pissed people off. Fabulous, so good, great footage.

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Speaker 1: That's that's awesome. And and the thing I love about

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Speaker 1: that story. The thing that really stuck with me when

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Speaker 1: people tell me this story when I was like a

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Speaker 1: young radical or whatever, people be like, look, the black

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Speaker 1: they're scared people because they walked around with guns, but

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Speaker 1: they scared people especially because they fed people, you know.

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Speaker 1: And this idea that the mutual aid program is like,

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Speaker 1: really what scared the FBI? And we talked about that

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Speaker 1: third episode, and today we're going to talk about even

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Speaker 1: more mutual aid that scared the ever loving shit out

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Speaker 1: of a bunch of racists. Oh okay, And the reason

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Speaker 1: I am sleep deprived is this wasn't originally my plan

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Speaker 1: when I set out to write a script this week,

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Speaker 1: because last week on this show, I covered a bunch

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Speaker 1: of factory takeovers in Argentina about how workers took over

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Speaker 1: their workplaces and turned them into worker cooperatives in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and one to two thousand and three or so,

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Speaker 1: and a bunch of these are still around, and it

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Speaker 1: was fun and had me on this like worker co

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Speaker 1: op kick, and I was like, I might talk about

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Speaker 1: worker co ops more this week. And in that episode

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Speaker 1: last week, I made the claim that the history of

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Speaker 1: the cooperative movement in the US owes an awful lot

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Speaker 1: to Black America in a way that is not acknowledged

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Speaker 1: much right, partly because like the overall okay, the reputation

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Speaker 1: of co ops. When I think about like co ops,

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Speaker 1: I tend to think of gentrifying forces of white people.

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Speaker 2: Yes, sure, I also view that they are large, beautiful

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Speaker 2: grocery stories with great produce where they stop you right

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Speaker 2: at the front. They're like, do you have a membership?

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Speaker 2: And if not, do you have cash for that membership?

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Speaker 2: Otherwise get out and you're just like, oh, okay, won't

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Speaker 2: even look at your space.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, Yeah, and so I was like, Okay, I want

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Speaker 1: to if I made that claim flippantly, I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. And so I was like, Okay, when

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Speaker 1: I do this piece on worker cooperatives, I'll talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about how I was influenced by the black cooperative,

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Speaker 1: by black cooperative economic thought. And then I started reading

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Speaker 1: all the books about black economic cooperative thought.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.

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Speaker 1: So black cooperative economics is not the side story to

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Speaker 1: this week. It is the story.

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Speaker 2: It is the story as it should be. Probably we're

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Speaker 2: about yes, it really is.

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Speaker 1: Not only that, but like there's more Like I stopped

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Speaker 1: because I ran out of like one time in the

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Speaker 1: week because I'm sleep deprived, but two like it ran

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Speaker 1: out of episode time. You know, Wow, we're not even

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Speaker 1: going to run up to the modern day. The history

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Speaker 1: of early Black American cooperative economics is just too good

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Speaker 1: not to deep dive. It is even more fundamental to

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Speaker 1: understanding how kind of everything in America works than I

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Speaker 1: would have imagined. And the origin the origin to that

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Speaker 1: is basically black mutual aid and black rebellion and black cooperation.

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Speaker 1: Because as far as I can tell, every honest story

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Speaker 1: about America starts in one or both of the following

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Speaker 1: two places. Okay, either violent colonial expansion in the genocide

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Speaker 1: of indigenous peoples, sure, yeah, or the unique racialized chattel

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Speaker 1: slavery system that was the backbone of the New World

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Speaker 1: and especially the US is a.

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Speaker 2: Seem like important pillais to get started and building a

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Speaker 2: class of people who leave everyone else literally in their dust. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I could see it. I could see.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they would come.

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Speaker 2: Back to this.

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Speaker 1: It really does. Like any anything you talk about is

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Speaker 1: that happens in the US is going to be influenced

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Speaker 1: by both of these things. We all live in the

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Speaker 1: shadow of these things. And I'm going to argue, because

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Speaker 1: I like metaphor and take metaphor very seriously, that we

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Speaker 1: live on land that is haunted. For some of us,

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Speaker 1: it is haunted by what our ancestors did. For others,

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Speaker 1: is haunted by what happened to our ancestors. For an

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Speaker 1: awful lot of people, it's both. But this show's middle

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Speaker 1: name is formally and Charine. Just make sure to make

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Speaker 1: it from now on, the show's formal name just stick

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Speaker 1: this in the middle of the show title is the

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Speaker 1: coolest things that have ever happened have happened in the

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Speaker 1: shadow of or in reaction to the worst atrocities the

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Speaker 1: world's ever seen.

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Speaker 3: Wait what we're ting? Can they get that down?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, the coolest things that have ever happened have

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Speaker 1: happened in the shadow of, or in reaction to, the

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Speaker 1: worst atrocities that the world's ever seen. It's a mouthful,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's worth it.

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Speaker 2: But accurate. Okay, I'm gonna listen more, and then I

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Speaker 2: have potentially some theories.

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Speaker 1: Wow, no, no, give me your theories.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So before we started recording, I woulday, but I've

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Speaker 2: been reading a ton of fantasy books, a lot a

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Speaker 2: lot of fantasy that and Japanese death poetry heavily in

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Speaker 2: my rotation lately, and the idea of atrocities being not

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Speaker 2: necessary but entirely unavoidable. Yeah, right, has been lingering over

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Speaker 2: a lot of that work. I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: the fantasy I'm reading lately almost always has some kind

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Speaker 2: of centered shenocide, wore atomic bomb, more atomic esque weapon,

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Speaker 2: the big one. It's I think haunting us. I think

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Speaker 2: we're very conscious, like subconsciously aware of the fact that

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Speaker 2: we are constantly dealing with these atrocities, and yet it's

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Speaker 2: weird how in our daytime. We do not at all

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Speaker 2: make space to pause and think or react or address

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Speaker 2: any of the issues. Yeah, totally sort of haunted by

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Speaker 2: the fact that it's coming at me and like it's

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Speaker 2: just pouring out of our art. It's just constantly pouring

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Speaker 2: out of art of being like, do you know that

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Speaker 2: we were just killing each other out like a very

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Speaker 2: large level, very quickly. Yeah, do you see it is?

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Speaker 2: It's not registering. It's pretty people are telling you. Does

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Speaker 2: it register now? Maybe it's packaged in a very entertaining story.

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Speaker 2: Do you see it now? No, it's been it's.

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Speaker 1: Creeping me out a little bit.

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Speaker 2: I'll be honest.

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Speaker 1: No, But see that makes sense and it actually ties

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Speaker 1: into something that I like. Folks will be surprised to

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Speaker 1: know that. Another Cool Zone media host, Robert Evans, keeps

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Speaker 1: the opposite schedule that I do, and so when I

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Speaker 1: was awake at five in the morning to keep writing

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Speaker 1: a script, Robert Evans was also awake, but for the

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Speaker 1: opposite reason, and we were like texting each other and

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Speaker 1: one of the things that comes up is about we

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Speaker 1: were just talking about how emotion comes through art and

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Speaker 1: sometimes how we kind of need art both the creation

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Speaker 1: of it and the experience of it almost to like

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Speaker 1: let ourselves feel certain emotions. Yeah, you know, and it

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Speaker 1: I don't know whether it's because like otherwise we're afraid

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Speaker 1: that we'll be consumed by them or let mean, honestly, okay,

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Speaker 1: this is completely off the capital we're talking about, but

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Speaker 1: like I feel, as I get older, i'd like have

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Speaker 1: my emotional reactions are dulled. They're still there, but they're

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Speaker 1: like the sharp edges have been like worn down by time.

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Speaker 1: Oh for sure, So art becomes even more important to

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Speaker 1: me as they get older.

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Speaker 2: Is that why dads can only cry when they watch movies,

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Speaker 2: watch very emotional movies, because they're like because I talked

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Speaker 2: to my father and father like figures men of fatherly ages.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of times, you know, when I talk

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Speaker 2: about taking action, they are so like you could if

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Speaker 2: you want to do if they're like, it's really honorable

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Speaker 2: that you want to be organizing her out in the street.

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Speaker 2: But that's not a thing that works. I've said it

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Speaker 2: fail so many times. It's just it's almost cute, you know,

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Speaker 2: because it's sometimes cantatizing where you're like celeeral, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: they're just they're complete. Do I think worn down by existing.

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Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, are is important. I'm excited to learn about commerce.

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Speaker 2: Don't mean to derailis. But no, no, I really got

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Speaker 2: me thinking. And I've also been reading so much poetry

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Speaker 2: lately that I was immediately like LinkedIn. I was like, yes,

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Speaker 2: I too, take poetry seriously.

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Speaker 1: No, no, I I this is the other stuff that

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Speaker 1: I'm like. I think people they only know me through

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Speaker 1: my podcast are like, ah, Margaret who only reads history books,

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Speaker 1: which is true because I spend all my time reading

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Speaker 1: history books. But like art and all this stuff, is

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Speaker 1: I like anything to talk about it too, but to

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Speaker 1: talk about history and sociology books. I've talked a lot

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Speaker 1: on the show about the nineteenth century labor movement, especially

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Speaker 1: how either how annoying and racist the white unions were

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Speaker 1: or how cool the internationalist, anti racist like integrated unions were.

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Speaker 1: I haven't actually talked yet as much as I'd like

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Speaker 1: to about the specific black unions that also existed. But

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Speaker 1: all the good stuff that comes from the crucible of

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Speaker 1: the labor movement came either through immigrant workers or black workers.

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Speaker 1: And we've talked a bunch about a bunch of different strikes,

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Speaker 1: about how the most important strike in US history. The

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Speaker 1: most successful labor action in all of US history was

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Speaker 1: when the black people in the South won the Civil

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Speaker 1: War by conducting the largest general strike in US history,

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Speaker 1: crippling the Confederate economy.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know, you think about what you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: That's crazy.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, no, no, no, okay, so, oh my god.

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Speaker 1: So there's this sociologist who I'm about to talk about,

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Speaker 1: a bunch named W. E. B. Dubois and not yeah,

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Speaker 1: not pronounced Dubois, Dubois, which I kept wanting to say constantly,

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Speaker 1: but it's Dubois. And he wrote this theory. But it

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Speaker 1: wasn't a theory he like, I mean, he backed it

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Speaker 1: up with facts. I guess it's like a theory in

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Speaker 1: like a science way, not in a like random conjecture way.

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Speaker 1: Right where he lays out that enslaved people in the

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Speaker 1: US South performed a massive general strike. They withheld their

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Speaker 1: labor during the Civil War in a way that crippled

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Speaker 1: the Confederate economy and in many ways won the war

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Speaker 1: and the transfer also because a ton of people fled

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Speaker 1: at great risk to get across the lines and then

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Speaker 1: they didn't just like I mean, I'm sure some of

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Speaker 1: them did. I wouldn't blame him, but they didn't just

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Speaker 1: like keep going. They stuck around, and they said, well,

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Speaker 1: how can we help, how can we help the war effort?

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Speaker 1: And there was this like labor army of formally enslaved,

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Speaker 1: self emancipated people and it actually, like I talked about

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Speaker 1: it long enough ago that I'm afraid I'll get the

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Speaker 1: details wrong. Okay, but this is what I knew about

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Speaker 1: du boys is that he was the guy who wrote

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Speaker 1: that thing about the general strike and like changed my

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Speaker 1: conception of the US Civil War. But it turns out

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Speaker 1: he wrote a lot of stuff. I mean, I knew

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Speaker 1: he wrote a lot of stuff, right, Yeah, I didn't

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Speaker 1: know what it was. So du Bois spent his incredibly

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Speaker 1: long and influential career throwing proverbial dynamond I guess. Okay, So,

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Speaker 1: like part of the reason I think that we don't

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Speaker 1: hear about him much, right is because by the time,

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Speaker 1: at least of like my white education, there is only

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Speaker 1: two black people in history, and there's the good one,

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Speaker 1: Martin Luther King and then the bad one Malcolm X.

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Speaker 2: For sure. The way uh it was, I went to

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Speaker 2: an all white elementary school, and so yeah, that was

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Speaker 2: definitely the the messaging across the board there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so we didn't hear about him as much

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Speaker 1: or any of the like really influential thinkers that came

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Speaker 1: before the nineteen sixties.

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Speaker 2: Wait was to be Okay, did Paris had a World's

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Speaker 2: Fair at some point? I think he was at.

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Speaker 1: It and he didn't put it past him. It would

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Speaker 1: that sounds like something he would do.

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Speaker 2: Okay, if it's this incredible book that is so highlights

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Speaker 2: all this detailed information that he brought there about like

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Speaker 2: what the African American was doing like at that time,

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Speaker 2: and there's like all these beautiful photographs, so folks like

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Speaker 2: dressed to the nines, and then there's like talk of

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Speaker 2: their business and stuff, and just that heat had sort

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Speaker 2: of like was recording and preserving our history as it

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Speaker 2: was happening in a way that wouldn't be bias leader,

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Speaker 2: which I think is kind.

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Speaker 1: Of that sounds like this guy, yeah, because that's what

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Speaker 1: he He's a sociologist and he was really fucking good one.

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Speaker 1: And another thing that he talked about a lot that

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Speaker 1: we take for granted today, but was a revolutionary idea

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Speaker 1: at the time. Even my white education talked about how

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Speaker 1: the failure of reconstruction right like after the Civil War

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Speaker 1: was one how the failure of it was because of

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Speaker 1: racist white people, right, it was because of Jim Crow

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Speaker 1: Laws and the KKK and like not like black people

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Speaker 1: are lazy until the boys proved it. The general hypothesis

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Speaker 1: with black people are lazy and that's why reconstruction failed,

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Speaker 1: which makes me very annoyed.

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Speaker 2: This is Tony Morrison has a quote I will pair

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Speaker 2: of phrase about sort of being for still waste time

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Speaker 2: explaining racism away to be like, hey, that's just racism, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: not talking in fact, you're just talking to me racism

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Speaker 2: and how to take my time to explain why it's

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Speaker 2: racist to you instead of doing the work that I

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Speaker 2: should actually be doing. One exhausting situation. Our poor guy

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Speaker 2: to bois, he was really suffering.

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Speaker 1: That's what he did over the course of his Like

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Speaker 1: this guy lives to be ninety five and he keeps

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Speaker 1: working his entire life, right, he saw a lot, sir,

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Speaker 1: And like I think about I don't remember this guy's name.

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Speaker 1: A long time ago, my ex boyfriend was telling me

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Speaker 1: this story about like, yeah, there was this scientist and

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Speaker 1: he had to spend his entire career measuring skulls because

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Speaker 1: he was the guy who proved that black people's brains

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Speaker 1: aren't smaller, and like, imagine, I mean, I guess that's

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Speaker 1: an important thing to do with your life. Imagine having

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Speaker 1: to do that with your fucking life.

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Speaker 2: I have to put so many numbers down on paper

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Speaker 2: that you finally see was just right in front of

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Speaker 2: your face, that that's it's trying, it's trying existing in space. Sometimes, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's crazy.

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Speaker 1: So Dubois said a lot of stuff, some of which

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Speaker 1: was mind blowing at the time, it seems obvious in retrospect,

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Speaker 1: and some of which isn't talked about now, like this

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Speaker 1: general strike theory of the US Civil War, and people

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Speaker 1: have pushed back on that a little bit, like it

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Speaker 1: wasn't the only thing that once the Civil War. There

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Speaker 1: was this whole war part of it too, you know,

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Speaker 1: and like, but it was a really important part that

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Speaker 1: is still left out of that conversation. He was also

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Speaker 1: the first person writing about black cooperative economics, at least

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Speaker 1: that I've found, and in nineteen oh seven he edited

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Speaker 1: a book called Economic Cooperation among Negro Americans, which had

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Speaker 1: an excellent and evocative subtitle report of a social study

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Speaker 1: made by Atlanta University under the patronage of Carnegie Institution

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Speaker 1: of Washington, d C. Together with the proceedings of the

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Speaker 1: twelfth Conference of the Study of the Negro Problems held

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Speaker 1: at Lanta University on Tuesday, May the twenty eighth. Nineteen

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Speaker 1: oh seven. Wow, I know, just really draws you in.

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Speaker 2: Rules, right out the tongue.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. Two epiphanies while reading this one. People knew

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Speaker 1: how to subtitle books back in the day. Just really

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Speaker 1: just lays it out, just real explicit.

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Speaker 2: No talk about what's in here. We're not trying to

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Speaker 2: build mystery. This is the text, Please find us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Two. My second epiphany was that I have become

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Speaker 1: someone who reads books with subtitles like this and finds

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Speaker 1: them riveting and loses sleep because I read more of

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Speaker 1: the nineteen oh seven book that's incredibly hard to parse

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Speaker 1: than the twenty fourteen book that explains it all very

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Speaker 1: rationally and in a way that's easier to understand.

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Speaker 2: Because you're an academic and you're like, this is the

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Speaker 2: first source, this is this is the good stuff right here.

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Speaker 2: I never knew anyone else's opinions or thoughts.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm in art schools, I can't be an academic.

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Speaker 1: And then I'm like, no, I participate in the academic

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Speaker 1: study of these books. And yeah, exactly. The nineteen oh

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Speaker 1: seven book has a lot more of the like really

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Speaker 1: interesting details, and a lot less of the here's how

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Speaker 1: to explain it to someone one hundred and fifteen years

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Speaker 1: from now.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: The more readable book I just want to shout out

404
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,679
Speaker 1: is called Collective Courage. It's by Jessica Gordon Nemhard and

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Speaker 1: it's from one hundred years later, in twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 2: That's the one I'll be reading.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but before we talk about the history itself, I

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00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 1: want to talk about these products and services that supported

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Speaker 1: our podcast and we're back. Hey, I also want to

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Speaker 1: talk about the historian. I want to talk about W. E. B.

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Speaker 1: Du Bois, or as his friends called him, because he

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Speaker 1: insisted doctor du Bois.

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Speaker 2: List. See, he said, I have the education. I'm not

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Speaker 2: dealing with these white people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, totally, Like.

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Speaker 2: This is exhausting, y'all see me, you know what's up?

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Speaker 2: Please call me the proper way. I respect the hell

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Speaker 2: out of it.

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Speaker 1: Even his best friend had to call him doctor du Bois. However,

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Speaker 1: his best friend was white. So it's like, according to

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Speaker 1: one article I read.

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Speaker 2: Okay, this is so he said, I can't be best

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Speaker 2: friends with you if you show me proper respect and

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Speaker 2: deference at all times so I'm not caught out tripping again.

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Speaker 2: Seems reasonable that a pro like, we're gonna risk friendship

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Speaker 2: in this era.

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Speaker 1: And if you're gonna be a guy who's like even

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Speaker 1: my best friends to call me doctor du bois, and

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be five foot five and carry a cane

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Speaker 1: even when you don't need it, and wear like dressed

431
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Speaker 1: to the nines at all times, you are either an

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Speaker 1: asshole or one of the coolest and weirdest, most interesting

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Speaker 1: intellectuals of your time.

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Speaker 2: It's really a fifty to fifty split here because I'm

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Speaker 2: keeping read flags. But also, like, you know what, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the truth is always a little murkier. You really want

437
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 2: to put him in a category. I'm sure he was

438
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 2: a complicated human being. Yeah, but there's definitely a lot

439
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 2: of those areaser just like we what now. But yeah,

440
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 2: you know, okay, guy had personality you would not soon

441
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 2: forget him.

442
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 1: No, I find him charming. I haven't read as much

443
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 1: about his personal life, you know, is that some people

444
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: have pointed out that he wasn't necessarily the best husband

445
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 1: or father, but that is outside the scope of this podcast,

446
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: and I don't know enough to really talk about it. Yeah,

447
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: but besides all these things, the thing you need to

448
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: know about doctor du Boys is that he was the

449
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,959
Speaker 1: first black graduate with a PhD from Harvard. He had

450
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 1: the club.

451
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 2: I assure you the pleasure was Harvard when somebody was

452
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 2: asking him about what was her time at Harvard, Like,

453
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 2: I'm sure the pleasure was Harvard. I'm a fact that,

454
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 2: but I'm pretty sure that's that care that rules.

455
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: Okay, which is awesome because later in his life he's

456
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: going to reference Oscar Wilde, and Oscar Wilde was exactly

457
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 1: the kind of guy who would say that kind of thing,

458
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: right for sure, Like I've I found at least one

459
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: thing that referred to him as a dandy, and I

460
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: really like putting him in the Oscar wild category. In

461
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, that makes sense.

462
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 2: That makes sense, spiffy fits wellgroom mushed ash, you can

463
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 2: see it.

464
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like real fucking good takes on politics.

465
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 2: Actually, yes, Harvard, Goozett confirms, Okay, that's a factual quote

466
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:33,640
Speaker 2: from Hell.

467
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the second thing you need to know about

468
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: doctor Dubois is that he was born in eighteen sixty eight,

469
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: which is famously only three years after the first Juneteenth,

470
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: the day when the amani Emancipation Proclamation finally hit Texas.

471
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 2: Okay, not to safie too much, but I recently found

472
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 2: out my great great great possibly a fourth grade in there.

473
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 2: Grandfather at the initial one in Austin. We own a

474
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 2: store called the Lions Convenience Store, part of the founding,

475
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 2: like Black families of Austin. I was very excited about it.

476
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 2: I no idea where the first two teenth That's amazing.

477
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 2: I've been learning a lot about this space and time.

478
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 2: It's an interesting period for black people that I think

479
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 2: we're sort of only just now uncovering as a consciously

480
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: like the in a more zeitgeist way.

481
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: That makes sense to me. I think that there's a

482
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: lot of like it's been really interesting to me to

483
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: learn that we know more about things that happened a

484
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: long time ago now than we did like closer to

485
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: those events.

486
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 2: Yes, one hundred percent.

487
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: That is wild to me. So he was born only

488
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: three years after the end of legal chattel slavery in

489
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: the US and I'm adding all those qualifiers because there

490
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: is still legal slavery in the US. It is in

491
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: prison systems, and there's still chattel slavery in the US.

492
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: It happens to undocumented people. But the end of legal

493
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: chattel slavery in the US is a big fucking deal,

494
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 1: one of the biggest deals in the history of the world. Honestly,

495
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: he lived for ninety five years and he died in

496
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three. He literally died the day before the

497
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: March on Washington from the nineteen sixties civil rights era.

498
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: Okay, wait to mark history with just your entrance and exits.

499
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: A it's a reminder that the space between these two

500
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 1: events is one guy. There's one guy between those events.

501
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, he wasn't there for either of them, Right,

502
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: you just missed. Yeah, that's intense. Yeah. Time is much

503
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: shorter than we think it is. Sure.

504
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Dubois before he was doctor du Bois, when

505
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: he was just Web, he probably didn't go by w

506
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: He probably did. He's the kind of kid who would

507
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: have gone by Web. Someone knows more about this than me.

508
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: There's hundreds of books written about this man. I read

509
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: some of his writing and some writing about him. He

510
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: was born in Massachusetts in a black community that he

511
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: described as a fairly idyllic setting, like local white churches

512
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: helped pay for his college, and he says he didn't

513
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: experience a ton of racism as a kid. Then he

514
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: went to an HBCU, a historically black college in Tennessee.

515
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 1: That place is called Fisk. You will be surprised to

516
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:27,239
Speaker 1: know that between his idyllic black community in Massachusetts and

517
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: Tennessee in whatever, he suddenly had to experience an awful

518
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 1: lot of racism culture shock.

519
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: When you cast the Mason Dixon HiT's different for sure.

520
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. He went on to become the first black person

521
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: in history to get PhD from Harvard, like I was saying,

522
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: and then he just went on to write some of

523
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: the most influential shit about race the world has ever seen.

524
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: In nineteen oh three, he published his most famous book,

525
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: The Souls of Black Folk. By nineteen thirty five, he

526
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: wrote Black Reconstruction, which is when he laid out about

527
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,479
Speaker 1: how Reconstruction was a failure of wasn't a failure by

528
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: black people?

529
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: You know?

530
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the classic black civil rights dichotomy that I

531
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: grew up learning about, of course, is Martin Luther King

532
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: the Reformer, and Malcolm X the radical right. Yeah, this

533
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: sells MLKA short. He was way fucking cooler than my

534
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: white liberal education taught me.

535
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. For sure. I think when I'm okay,

536
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: it's like the one of the most waking organizers, like

537
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: guy on the ground who understood what it meant not

538
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: just to be the face, but to structure the the

539
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 2: way movements were captured. Right, like when I just recently

540
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 2: learned that he chose pretty women to be arrested with

541
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: and Georgia, who was like, listen, if they're arresting gorgeous

542
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 2: young women, people are gonna be upset about it.

543
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 4: Me.

544
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, black, I don't really care about me. They'll care

545
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: these women are geting arrested, and they could be like,

546
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: show we're knowing. Also what we know about the man

547
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 2: is a full human being. But I also think it's

548
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: just like that kind of thinking is a is necessary

549
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 2: in order to make movements h gain traction with folks

550
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: who might otherwise just you know, chill in the middle,

551
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: be comfortable and that. Yeah, yeah, a brilliant thinker, not

552
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 2: just the guy who was like, we no fighting back,

553
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 2: which I think is often how he gets painted.

554
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: No, totally, and it's he's easier to misrepresent and recuperate

555
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: into capitalism and like whiteness than the man than Malcolm X,

556
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: who was just it's very hard to do that to

557
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: Malcolm X.

558
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, well, because you get to whatever you see

559
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: Malcomax being Oh, that guy took no shit, like he

560
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 2: would not food anybody in this room. He would be

561
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 2: like pretender, fake, get out of my face, like no,

562
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: there's no uh, it's not a guy who was interested

563
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: in being a politician necessarily.

564
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and clear. I wouldn't fuck with either of them

565
00:29:58,680 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: by selling them on the street.

566
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: I'm okay, we'll just take you by surprise exactly, sweet

567
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: face like pastorly voice where you're like, oh okay, like

568
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: this guy's chill, and then he starts speaking to you

569
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: like I'm dumb, I'm stupid, and why did I think

570
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: I could take this man is brilliant, Like oh.

571
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: God, yeah, no, totally. So at the turn of the century,

572
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: you had a different dichotomy of black intellectuals that was

573
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: being presented to everyone. Right, you had Booker T. Washington,

574
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: who is more moderate. His position gets called accommodationism and

575
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: basically Booker T. Washington, this sells him a little bit short,

576
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: and I'll talk about in a second. Booker T. Washington

577
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: said folks should compromise on their rights in order to

578
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: get the bare minimum ount of white society. Basically, doctor

579
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: du Bois comes on the scene and he's like, we

580
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: are intellectually the equal of whites, and we demand a

581
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: quality now. But it's not just like du Bois radical,

582
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: Washington boring compromiser. It was actually about also how they

583
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: positions themselves are on class. Washington was like, we want

584
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: to focus on our working class power. I'm paraphrasing here,

585
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit putting words in their mouths. We're

586
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: going to focus on working class power by educating ourselves

587
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: as laborers and will become the economic equals of white

588
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: people by like doing manual labor and stuff, and then

589
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: we'll be in a better place to fight for our rights.

590
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: And a lot of people don't like this because it's like, well,

591
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: that's the work we're already expected to do within white society. Anyway,

592
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: du Bois came in and he believed in what was

593
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: called a classical education. He's a Harvard man. He wants

594
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: to focus on intellectual quality. He claimed that a quote

595
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: talented tenth, a sort of intellectual class of elites that

596
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: made up about ten percent of the black population, aha,

597
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: would lead the black people to equality. And it is

598
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: not surprising that he ends up pretty Marxist, right.

599
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the talented tenth is the belief there within

600
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 2: is still held strongly amongst certain African Americans, and in

601
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: concerning in what I find to be somewhat concerning ways.

602
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and du bois So the boys didn't coin it. It

603
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: was actually coined by a white northern liberals who used

604
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: it to diswade their plans.

605
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

606
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: Right, They were like, oh, we're going to establish black

607
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: colleges in the South and make a make a talented tenth.

608
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: You could probably guess by the way in our tones.

609
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: I have no interest in offering strategic advice. This is

610
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: not a plan that specifically appeals to me.

611
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think any plaster, any plan for improvement that

612
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: requires selecting tempercent of people to move on while everybody

613
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 2: else sort of waits for them to open the door,

614
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: is immediately suspect, like, wait, what's happening here? Who's doing

615
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: the choosing? Would define talent? Talent in what way like

616
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: it just it's all it's yeah, not great.

617
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: Well what's interesting. Du Bois is such an interesting thinker.

618
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: He develops as he gets older and I'm cutting ahead

619
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: to further my script, he changes his position this and

620
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: he stops being like by the end of his life,

621
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: he's not like, oh, we need the smart ten percent.

622
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: He kind of is like, we need the moral ten percent. Oh,

623
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: and we also need people to like integrate our struggle

624
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: into broader struggle of other marginalized people, and like there's

625
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: actually he's hard to pin down in some ways.

626
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: We change so much over the course of our extremely

627
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 2: long lives.

628
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: I know, right, like what like I don't think the

629
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: same shit when I was twenty No.

630
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: Thank god he experienced so much.

631
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: So this more radical thinker actually still had more in

632
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: common with MLK than Malcolm X, at least tactically. Du

633
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: Bois in the early twentieth century. He was not super

634
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: stoked on Black Insurrection. He was like, I get it,

635
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: I'm not anti. I understand why people do it. Like

636
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: he's not mad at Nat Turner, for example, like the

637
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: most famous slaver vault person during this period. And we'll

638
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: probably still you know, all that stuff comes from the

639
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: right place and maintains our dignity. Right, It's better than

640
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: just sucking it up. But it is politically misguided because

641
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 1: with the white power structure is more powerful than us,

642
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: is his argument. But the opposite position, the accommodationist position,

643
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 1: destroys our dignity and undermines us as people. He presents

644
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: this idea so he believes in this third tradition, a

645
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: nonviolent defiance, which he connects to Frederick Douglas's legacy. And

646
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: what's interesting about this from my point of view, all

647
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: of these people are so you know, like when you

648
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: simplify him to be like oh Berker T. Washington's like

649
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: boring liberal, yeah, or like Frederick Douglass totally nonviolent. Like

650
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: first of all, I mean, like the Civil War wasn't

651
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: a non violent protest. His like sons were fighting in that.

652
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: You know, he was a little bit old by that point.

653
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 1: I'm sure he would have been. Frederick Douglass was no pacifist.

654
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: I like this quote by him because it, well, whatever

655
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: he says, if the Southern outrages on the colored race continue,

656
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: the negro will become a chemist. Anarchists have not the opoly.

657
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: I'm bomb making and the Negro will learn.

658
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: A check and innate. Just don't push us too far.

659
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: I really appreciate with people just kind of laying on

660
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 2: the line just to be like, you know, what actually

661
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: we do, But I think that's also it's irritating. And

662
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,879
Speaker 2: again I would say with my my education in Black

663
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 2: American history begins in college because I was want to

664
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 2: start hanging out more black kids my age, and I

665
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: I'm sort of it's somewhat perplexing, but also you understand

666
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 2: the intentionality of it the older I get of just

667
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 2: how things we think are understood and buried are constantly

668
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 2: rebrought up as being like factual, like the idea that oh,

669
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 2: black folks just lack education, and if it's just education,

670
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: then that would be what would give them a head,

671
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: or oh they're lazy, if they would just work harder,

672
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: then that's how. It's just like, it's wild to me

673
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 2: that people can still be distracted from the fact that

674
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 2: these are systems in place that are concrete and and

675
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: and they're here, and we have to fix it. We

676
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: have to do I mean, we have to tear down

677
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: and rebuild the system. But there's that I don't know,

678
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: it's just crazy. Yeah, that's crazy.

679
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: No, And you know you're right about how like, yeah,

680
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: watching these things, like of course everyone understands systemic racism,

681
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: and then we've like slipped at remembering systemic racism, you know. Yeah,

682
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: So Dubois was into a sort of less violent defiance.

683
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: To quote author David Haikwan Kim, Dubois's third way of

684
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 1: political self assertion quote inherits the moral and spiritual legacy

685
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: of black insurrectionism without advocating violent mayhem or caste submission.

686
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: And so basically it's like, well, we're going to stand up,

687
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: but we're just not necessarily going to do it in

688
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: these like kind of one off ways. But he gets

689
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: really interesting but all this shit I okay, well so

690
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 1: hear me out, Okay, okay, So tactically and strategically he's

691
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 1: sounding a little bit more Martin Luther King. Right, non

692
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: violence is not the same as submission. It's the op

693
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: is a form of rebellion.

694
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

695
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: But the other thing about du Bois is that he

696
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: also presaged black nationalism in some ways, according to at

697
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: least you know, some of the authors I was reading.

698
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: Frederick Douglass was about black folks integrating into white society.

699
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 1: The boys insisted that black people should embrace their African

700
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: heritage even while living in the US.

701
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 2: Yes, everyone else is allowed to, might we also enjoy?

702
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: And he gets more radical as he gets older. Later

703
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: in his life he talked about how this negative view

704
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,720
Speaker 1: he had of the insurrectionist like when he was writing

705
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: in his youth, he wrote about black insurrectionists being like, look,

706
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: I got where they're coming from, but it wasn't the

707
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: right plan. And the white insurrectionists, like the labor movement

708
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: and the anarchists and stuff like that, he writes about

709
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: them and he's like, I don't know, it's just weird

710
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: flash in the pan stuff. It doesn't matter. Right Later

711
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 1: he writes explicitly about how this was his Harvard education,

712
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: talking this is what they taught him to believe about

713
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: these movements, and he started seeing labor uprisings as part

714
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: of a lineage of struggle, not as just like sporadic

715
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: uprisings into chaos.

716
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 2: Ah.

717
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: He started adding class more actively to his critique, and

718
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: he started seeing all of these struggles as connected. And

719
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: he didn't drop race. This is his primary thing for

720
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: understandable reasons, but he became more of a like racism

721
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: deeply informs capitalism, and the two are intertwined, which is

722
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: to say, I really like this guy's thinking.

723
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and you've paid a picture of an evolution, right.

724
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: I mean, if you grew up in a sheltered, comfortable

725
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 2: town where everybody looks like you and your happy in

726
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 2: life is good, like, that's how you perceive the whole

727
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 2: world because you were young, know nothing else. And then

728
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 2: you get to college and you learn a little bit more,

729
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 2: and then it sounds like what should be obvious, And

730
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 2: maybe the main lesson and takeaway for folks is I've

731
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 2: start speaking to more organizers. Is something I've certainly been

732
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: checked on a lot, which is like, you come from

733
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: a class that has a lot of privilege that you've

734
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 2: not acknowledged yet. And if you do not acknowledge your

735
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: class privilege, and then if you do not engage people

736
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: outside of your class, you are not actively doing the work.

737
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 2: You're missing such a large picture of what's actually going on.

738
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 2: And it just sounds like he got out in the

739
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 2: world and was like, oh, there's a lot totally. The

740
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 2: workers are angry for a reason.

741
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, not random, no, absolutely, but you know what's a

742
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: good steam valve for class aggression is ads and stuff

743
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: that goodbye, and that way you don't feel as bad

744
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: about capitalism because you can participate in it through here's

745
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: the ad break.

746
00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 2: Did do? Did it do?

747
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: And we're back.

748
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: Hey.

749
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,280
Speaker 1: So he actually helped form the NAACP in nineteen oh nine,

750
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: and then he edited its paper for twenty five years,

751
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: which was called The Crisis, which is a fucking sick

752
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: name for a newspaper.

753
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 2: It really is gets attention getting.

754
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm not going to get into like there's

755
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: a lot of other folks, like Marcus Garvey comes on

756
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: the scene shortly after this and is pretty critical of Dubois.

757
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: They have a lot of conflict and you know, and

758
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 1: they're both involved in the Pan Africanist movement, which is

759
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: a movement to unite Africa and also often African people

760
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: in the diaspora into one identity and or nation to

761
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: unite against colonization. But like there's a lot of like

762
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: splits within that, and like Dubois, understandably, people were critical

763
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: of some of the things that he said. Into sure,

764
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: but you know, whatever I did all this cool shit.

765
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: His actual political beliefs were pretty consistent throughout his life,

766
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: He started off even before he figured out all this

767
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: other shit, believing in economic cooperation, like it's not even

768
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: the it's not even like nineteen hundred yet before he

769
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: starts writing about economic cooperation. He also believed consistently throughout

770
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 1: his life that black people should demand their rights directly

771
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: and immediately, and he was basically a democratic socialist for

772
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 1: most of his career. How he actually carried himself politically varied. Basically,

773
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,720
Speaker 1: he did whatever he thought was pragmatic at any given point.

774
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 1: He would sometimes vote Republican, sometimes Democrats, sometimes third party,

775
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: sometimes refuse to vote, depending on the candidates at the time,

776
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: and basically like what they specifically offered to the black community,

777
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:45,479
Speaker 1: which I don't make sense.

778
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 2: Whatever, it's a logical way to vote and move through

779
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 2: life to Yeah, no party loyalties, I'm aboutfit.

780
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: He would join and leave the Socialist Party and the

781
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: Communist Party. He would pick fights and men ties between

782
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: the NAACP and the Communist Party, like all the time.

783
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: He started off against US involvement in World War One.

784
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: This is a common sort of anti imperialist position. Then

785
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: he ended up in favor of World War One. Then

786
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: he regretted being in favor of World War One. He

787
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 1: was opposed to US involvement in World War Two, especially

788
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: in the Pacific Theater, because he figured that the US

789
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: would probably use that opportunity to just do more imperialism,

790
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: which which yeah, you know, that makes sense. There's very

791
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: few wars that the US is a government was involved

792
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: with which I'm like, we were solidly on the right side,

793
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: and World War two is one of those. But I

794
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: still completely understand the critique of the Pacific theater. We'll

795
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: just expand US interests.

796
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, you two things can be true. We

797
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 2: could join Lee and fight Nazis and also ravage countries

798
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 2: that were like, its completely unnecessary. We take advantage wherever

799
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 2: we go, so you know, yeah, man, yeah.

800
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 4: I know.

801
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: So compromising in ways that seemed pragmatic and then regretting

802
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: it was a hallmark of his life, it seems. And

803
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: I'm making that because it happened at least twice. Okay,

804
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: there was the World War one one and then in

805
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eight, one of du Bois's mentees was a

806
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: fellow black Harvard Man named Augustus Granville Dill, and he

807
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: was caught by the vice squad doing homosexuality in a

808
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: public bathroom. Du Boys fired him from the crisis Boys

809
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: now and Augustus retired from writing, and then spent the

810
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: rest of his life like as a piano player and teacher.

811
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 1: Du Bois regretted this for the rest of his life,

812
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 1: as you shared it in his autobiography, he wrote, quote,

813
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: I had before that time no conception of homosexuality. I

814
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: had never understood the tragedy of an Oscar Wild. I

815
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: dismissed my coworker forthwith and spent heavy days regretting my act.

816
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 2: Amazing of you two, say so, sir, I mean, I

817
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 2: think a lot of people would just take it to

818
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 2: their grave, you know. I know, it's wonderful for him

819
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 2: to have said it out loud, because it is really tragic.

820
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: That's the thing I find really compelling is this sort

821
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: of intellectual honesty where it seems like he's like not

822
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: specifically committed to an ideology, he's like committed to trying

823
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: to do right, and sometimes he slips up really dramatically

824
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: and is inconsistent, and he feels really human.

825
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 2: I mean, and that's a rarity, I think, especially for

826
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: people who are lifted onto such pedestals and the work

827
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 2: is very good. People are like hero, I'm like well

828
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 2: human being.

829
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, totally. As he aged, he became more and

830
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 1: more radical During the Cold War. He remained critical of

831
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,439
Speaker 1: the USSR for its despotism, but overall he backed them

832
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: against US imperialism, and the US didn't like him for this.

833
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: He's absolutely caught up in the Red scare time and

834
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: time again, even though he kept like being like, I'm

835
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 1: I'm not with the communists, but he would like as

836
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: the US government like goes after him more and more,

837
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: He's just hanging out with his communist friends. He's like,

838
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: fuck the US government.

839
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 2: He's like, I'm not one of them, but I like

840
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: it better over here.

841
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he deepened his analysis of how all sorts

842
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: of marginalized people need to work together. He shifted his

843
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: belief about an educated vanguard leading the way to a

844
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: sort of moral guidance where being a good person and

845
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: specifically selfless was far more important than specifically their education.

846
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: The US revoked his passport for him being a commi,

847
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 1: and when he was like in his fucking in his eighties,

848
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, no, you're a sketchy commi.

849
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 2: Uncle Sam's never not petty.

850
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: I know it took a nineteen fifty eight Supreme Court

851
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:51,399
Speaker 1: decision to get him his passport back.

852
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,879
Speaker 2: Y'all were extra petty. Wow. Usually this is running around

853
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 2: with some paperwork, a little extra long line. Yeah, Supreme Court.

854
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: God damn.

855
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: So he moved to Ghana nineteen sixty one, at age

856
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: ninety three.

857
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 2: I love the man, he says, and peace out. No

858
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: one talked to me ever again.

859
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: Sucking done. Yeah, and before he moves to Ghana, as

860
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: final fuck you to the US government, he formally enrolls

861
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: and gets his membership card in the Communist Party the USA.

862
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: Slow clap, slow, and most analysis I've seen isn't because

863
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: like suddenly, at ninety three, he suddenly becomes a committed

864
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:32,240
Speaker 1: Communist Party communist.

865
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 2: He's been doing it the whole time.

866
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: It's a fuck you, it's a fuck you the Red Scare,

867
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: it's a fuck you the US government.

868
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 2: That is amazing. I really I enjoy that. Yeah, yeah,

869
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 2: you help this man prisoner. I mean, like, the United

870
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 2: States is large, but there's the reason he should be

871
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: confined to its borders. That's crazy. Yeah.

872
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: He died in Ghana two years later, not suspiciously. I

873
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: mean he was fucking ninety five and he died the

874
00:46:58,200 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: day before the march on Washington.

875
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: Wow.

876
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,959
Speaker 1: And the Communist Party in the US, honestly, being pretty clever,

877
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: they started a youth organization called the du Boys Club,

878
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: which was a reference to the patriotic boys clubs of America.

879
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 2: That's amazing settiness all around. Live.

880
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 3: You know that, I did laugh really hard, And.

881
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: So yeah do boys one of America's most important public intellectuals.

882
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 1: And why do I want to talk about him? I

883
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: did all this research talking about him because because of

884
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: a paragraph he wrote in the introduction of his book

885
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: about economic cooperation, the nineteen oh seven book. And I'm

886
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:50,720
Speaker 1: going to quote this paragraph, quote the conference. The conference

887
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: that produced this report regards the economic development of the

888
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: Negro Americans at present as in a critical state. The

889
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: crisis arises not so much because of the idleness or

890
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 1: even a lack of skill, as by reason of the

891
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: fact they unwittingly stand hesitating at the crossroads. One way

892
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: leads to the old trodden ways of grasping fierce individualistic competition,

893
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: where the shrewd, cunning, skilled and rich among them will

894
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: prey upon the ignorance and simplicity of the mass of

895
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: the race and get wealth at the expense of the

896
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: general well being. The other way leading to cooperation and

897
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: capital and labor, the massing of small savings, the wide

898
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 1: distribution of capital, and a more general equality of wealth

899
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 1: and comfort. The latter path of cooperative effort has already

900
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: been entered by many. We find a wide development of

901
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: industrial and sick relief, many building and loan associations, some

902
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: cooperation of artisans, and considerable cooperation in retail trade.

903
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,720
Speaker 2: He was ready. He was like, I have a plan,

904
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,919
Speaker 2: Please follow it. It sounds like a dream. I mean,

905
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: nobody took note. No one was like, wow, maybe that could.

906
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 1: Thing that would work for us, That would have been

907
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: a better plan overall. And that's like even like he's

908
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: always waffling on like party politics or whatever. I mean,

909
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: these are white parties. The Communist Party of US was

910
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:21,479
Speaker 1: like actually fairly black during this time period because they're

911
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: the only political party in the US that was like

912
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: consistently good about race issues during that time the whole

913
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: like nineteen twenties nineteen forties era. They were like anyway, whatever,

914
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 1: that's besides the point, because I'm like people probably know

915
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: this about me. I'm like not a big fan of

916
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 1: the USSR, but I'm also not a big fan of

917
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: the US government or whatever. But it's like, why does

918
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: he need specific party politics and ideological lines. He laid

919
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: out exactly what he's hoping will happen. Yeah, and it

920
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: comes from the black experience in America, not European ideology.

921
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's again and incredible to me. Uh, the

922
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: absolute choke whole power has to be like, oh no,

923
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 2: we have we have the solutions. We're pretty clear on

924
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 2: what would work and be most beneficial for most people.

925
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 2: That's not a mystery. We don't need to solve it.

926
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 2: We have the answers. We're just refuse to do it.

927
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 2: You're just not going to even try it. No, Yeah,

928
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 2: heaven't forbid. They see it works, long, don't do it.

929
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 2: It's just crazy.

930
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: Well, and we're going to get to that and probably

931
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 1: on Wednesday's episode where they do. They prove a lot

932
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: of this stuff works, and then of course reaction comes

933
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:42,919
Speaker 1: and why supremacy comes and shuts a lot of it down.

934
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,879
Speaker 1: But so basically, he lays out a challenge to all

935
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: of us because he saw how black Americans were absolutely

936
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: the leaders in the realm of economic cooperation in the US.

937
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 1: And it's possible that no group in history has ever

938
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 1: pulled itself up economically from worse conditions against such fierce

939
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: odds as Black America did after the Civil War. When

940
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: I think about an America without Jim Crow and the KKK,

941
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: like it would just be fucking unrecognizable today. Oh for sure,

942
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: there's a reason that white people end up like literally

943
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: bombing a place called Black Wall Street. Yeah, because Black

944
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: Americans organized and fought in a thousand ways, and one

945
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: of those ways was economically. Author Jessica Gordon Nemhard lays

946
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 1: out a bunch of shit about how black cooperativism worked

947
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 1: in the US that had it existed since the beginning,

948
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: like actually goes back before the beginning of the US,

949
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 1: That women have consistently taken the leading role in most

950
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: of its organizations. Wow, oh yeah, it's the numbers aren't

951
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: even close. We're gonna talk about it next episode. That

952
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 1: many of the organizations were specifically cross class in a

953
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: way that greatly strengthened them, and that basically all of

954
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 1: them throughout time have been opposed, often violently and destructively,

955
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,919
Speaker 1: by white supremacy, and yet to spite that they've done

956
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,919
Speaker 1: so much, and so were we talking a little about

957
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 1: what they did.

958
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 2: Women are so great, y'all.

959
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: I love women, I know they Yeah, like the black

960
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 1: women organizing in this era just held down entire economies

961
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: of Yeah, Like it's just fucking incredible. The history of

962
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 1: black economic cooperation in resistance to racism and slavery in

963
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: the US is older than the US itself. I think

964
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 1: I've brought it up before on the show because it

965
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 1: like blew my mind when I first found this out.

966
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 1: You know, like when you think of insurance companies, you

967
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 1: largely think of like evil capitalist things, right, Yeah, for sure. Yeah,

968
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:43,280
Speaker 1: you know they have radical roots.

969
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 2: Insurance has radical roots. You know what it would because

970
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 2: insurance here to ensure that you are taking care of

971
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 2: in difficult times and someone exactly I can make coin

972
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 2: off of that. Wherefore, I know, human being suck.

973
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: I know, insurance companies have their roots in mutual aid.

974
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,800
Speaker 1: In some ways, you could say mutual aid has its roots.

975
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: Mutual aid is like a recognizable name. Practice kind of

976
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,720
Speaker 1: has its roots in old insurance companies. They like not companies,

977
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: insurance associations.

978
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 2: Wow.

979
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: Dubois traces the history of this legacy of cooperation back

980
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: to Africa itself. He argues that despite the claims of

981
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: the anthropology at the time enslave people. This is another

982
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: one of those things that I think is common knowledge now,

983
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: but like wasn't then. Basically at the time, people were like, oh, no,

984
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: black people as soon as they got to America, they

985
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: don't remember Africa. There's no connection to any cultural or

986
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 1: religious traditions. That's you know, total blank slate. Instead, du

987
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: Bois argues that people brought an awful lot over with them,

988
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: since they were people who had memories.

989
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:54,720
Speaker 2: Full, full lives, remember their stories. Yeah, I've been watching

990
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 2: and learning a lot about Black culinary.

991
00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,720
Speaker 1: Traditions that have been oh cool.

992
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 2: From West Africa to here. They're interesting maps where they

993
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 2: lay out, you know, soil conditions in different parts of

994
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 2: West Africa, and they're like you'll see here they were

995
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 2: growing rice, and then the rice were growing the same

996
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 2: way here, and then in the architecture of a lot

997
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 2: of southern buildings. You can see similar designs in like

998
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 2: ancient African architecture, specifically West African architecture, where like the

999
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 2: way the they're low and flat so that wind can

1000
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,240
Speaker 2: blow across the top and keep the lower parts cooler,

1001
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 2: things features like that, and so it's yeah, it's everywhere,

1002
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:39,280
Speaker 2: and it's again, it's wild to think how intensely woven

1003
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 2: enslaved people were to everyday culture and society. People were like,

1004
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,800
Speaker 2: they're not doing anything here, just like you couldn't get dressed,

1005
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 2: you couldn't feed yourself, you couldn't like farmer lands like

1006
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 2: literally over here doing everything entertaining your damn children, like

1007
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 2: making sure they don't get killed, like so much. And

1008
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 2: then to like the willful arrogance to be like what

1009
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 2: they've had no effect, yes, is not totally.

1010
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: And also that those people are lazy, You mean, the

1011
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 1: people who've built your house and feed you and take

1012
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 1: care of your children and brush your hair.

1013
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 2: Literally in the fields while you're chilling on the porch,

1014
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 2: like god it's hot. These lazy assholes making sure my

1015
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 2: life runs well. Y'all were crazy, ah, so much.

1016
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so once people got here, got here, and

1017
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: so once people were stolen and fucking trafficked, a ton

1018
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: of people started organizing help one another out in all

1019
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: kinds of different ways. Enslaved people on a plantation might

1020
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: collectively tend a small garden plot for themselves. They organized

1021
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 1: to buy one another freedom. Maroon communities start popping up everywhere.

1022
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: This is like one of my favorite things to cover.

1023
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: I will always when I find out about new Maroon community.

1024
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: It's an easy roon communities are there are these? They're

1025
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: gorilla societies, uh like gorilla with EU or u E,

1026
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 1: populated mostly by self freed black people and Indigenous people

1027
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 1: with the occasional poor white family. And these Maroon communities,

1028
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 1: many of which lasted for generations, would have totally different

1029
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 1: social orders in the societies around them. And a lot

1030
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: of these societies were very cooperative. Also, they sometimes go

1031
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 1: raid slave society and that's cool too, Margaret.

1032
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: Okay, oh my god, huh. I literally touched the hem

1033
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,919
Speaker 2: of this in my research. I was telling Margaret before

1034
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 2: that I've been doing a lot of research on who

1035
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 2: do practicing enslaved folk like pre Civil War, and what

1036
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 2: I learned is like, typically a lot of these wait,

1037
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 2: what was the word users.

1038
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: It was not in my maroon towny, Maroon societies.

1039
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 2: Societies, maroone societies, so.

1040
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,879
Speaker 1: Apparently communities or colonies or yeah. Yeah.

1041
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 2: I read about a couple of them and they were

1042
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 2: saying that they would specifically choose like difficult territory to

1043
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 2: it was like deep deep deep with the swamp on

1044
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 2: the islands that you have to like swim or like

1045
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 2: you have a boat to get to. And I was like,

1046
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 2: this is so cool. It's legit. How I script Okay,

1047
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 2: I can't even talk about it, but I'm so excited

1048
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 2: when you do an episode on them, will you please

1049
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 2: invite me because I am so curious to learn more.

1050
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 2: I think it's the coolest thing to just be like

1051
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 2: part of the reason because you know, when you think

1052
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 2: about when I think about my black friends who have

1053
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 2: a firm grip on the history of our people in

1054
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 2: this country, there are folks who grew up like in

1055
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 2: deeply embedded black cultures, right so like yes, church, but

1056
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 2: also school, like they had black teachers growing up, which

1057
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 2: a lot of black kids, Like I had my black

1058
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 2: teacher until my third year of college. Yeah, like I

1059
00:57:55,800 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 2: just were like outside of my imediate family and then

1060
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 2: we go visit, extended family just wasn't there. And so

1061
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 2: I say all that just to say, like, it's it's

1062
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 2: interesting to think that a lot of the reasons this

1063
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 2: information isn't getting passed over to like white kids, Like

1064
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 2: a lot of that information is like this is for

1065
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 2: don't know, this is for us, we're over here. It's

1066
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 2: like the first time I saw Daughters of the Dust,

1067
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 2: which is essentially about a maroon community society of people

1068
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 2: like living out there. I uh, I think the beautiful.

1069
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 2: I'm really excited to learn more about them. I've got

1070
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 2: really guests.

1071
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 1: Sorry, I didn't know that they were so prevalent. Like

1072
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 1: I first heard of this one called the Great and

1073
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: the Great Dismal Swamp in northeast North Carolina, and frankly,

1074
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 1: I first heard about it because like white radicals love

1075
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,439
Speaker 1: when there's like white people in the story. Of course,

1076
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 1: like we talk a lot about John Brown and shit

1077
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, and the Great Dismal Swamp. There's like

1078
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:55,720
Speaker 1: this version of the story that there was like also

1079
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 1: poor white people living there, and that's probably true, but

1080
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 1: if so, it's like way less important than people talk about.

1081
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: But the thing so then you're like, oh, there was

1082
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: this one maroon society or you hear about these ones

1083
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 1: in other countries or things like that, and slowly you're

1084
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 1: like these were fucking everywhere, Like this is like not

1085
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: you couldn't have a slave society without it being interspersed

1086
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: with pockets of freedom. Yeah, no matter how hard they tried,

1087
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 1: and they literally invented policing in order to try and

1088
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: stop this kind of thing.

1089
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 2: You sure did.

1090
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: But the other thing that gets kind of played up,

1091
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: and a lot of the versions of this is like

1092
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: and then they would go raid slave Society and bring

1093
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 1: into clare war on slave Society and like that's like

1094
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: kinda true, but also a lot of the Maroon communities

1095
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: were like, don't go fucking rating. Well, like fucking they'll

1096
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: come shut us down.

1097
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 2: Like no, right, first of all, like let's be smart

1098
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 2: about it. Okay, we got to protect everybody here, Like

1099
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 2: for sure, let's get some people out, but like also

1100
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 2: the ones who handle your shu, because again, there are

1101
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 2: so many people here already. The deeper tectae. Yeah, I

1102
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 2: imagine it would be a highly selective, highly organized operations

1103
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 2: and not just pitchforks. You know.

1104
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, the rating was like pretty but a lot of

1105
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 1: the actual organizations of them were somewhat informal. But then again,

1106
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: we did an episode about I don't remember what the

1107
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 1: main topic was, it was probably it was about Brazil

1108
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 1: and there was this like king, a black king, living

1109
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 1: in the mountains of in a maroon community in Brazil

1110
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: with like an army, a palace, and it was like

1111
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 1: it was kind of wild. So there's that one and

1112
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 1: then another for anyone who's listening is like, I want

1113
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 1: to already hear episodes. We did an episode about Fort

1114
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: Negro in Florida, which was not part of the US

1115
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 1: at the time, which was a very militant run society

1116
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 1: that started from black British soldiers. Okay, so much listening

1117
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: to do market Yeah, no, I'm like, I'll probably have

1118
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: you on for Great Dismal Swamp. I've been planning to

1119
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 1: do that one for a while. So in addition to

1120
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 1: these maroon communities, you also have entire secret societies that

1121
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 1: formed about which we know very little because they're secret societies.

1122
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: But we know a little bit about them, partly because

1123
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 1: there's that not actually secret societies. The Masons, the Freemasons,

1124
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 1: they get tied into this story too in a positive way.

1125
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 2: The conspiracy theorists are going to be clocking a lot

1126
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 2: of things. I know.

1127
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 1: Well conspiracy theorists. Black Freemasons in the US are older

1128
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 1: than the US. On March sixth, seventeen seventy five, a

1129
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: year before the US fifteen Free Black Men were initiated

1130
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 1: into Freemasonry, soon forming the African Lodge number four fifty nine.

1131
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 1: Then they formed a national Grand Lodge of three other lodges. Wow,

1132
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: one of the biggest, the two biggest centers of the

1133
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 1: cooperative organ that we're going to be talking about. One

1134
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 1: of them is the secret societies and the other is churches.

1135
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 1: Dubois rites, Oh, this ties into what you were actually

1136
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 1: talking about. He's going to use outdated terminology for this,

1137
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 1: Dubois writes. It was not, at first, by any means,

1138
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 1: a Christian church, but rather an adaptation of those Heathen

1139
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 1: rights which we roughly designate by the term obi worship

1140
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 1: of Voodooism. Association and missionary effort soon gave these rights

1141
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: a veneer of Christianity, and gradually, after two centuries, the

1142
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 1: church became Christian with a Calvinistic creed and with many

1143
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 1: of the old customs still clinging to the services. It

1144
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 1: is this historic fact that the Negro Church of today

1145
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 1: bases itself on one of the few surviving social institutions

1146
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: of the African fatherland that accounts for its extraordinary growth

1147
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 1: and vitality.

1148
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I mean, if you think of all the

1149
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 2: things that sertifically think of coming out of a church,

1150
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 2: and then you distill it down to the who do is,

1151
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 2: which is essentially a practice of non faith based rituals

1152
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 2: that are meant to invoke either healing or inspiration or protection.

1153
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 2: These were These were again women again, the protectors, again

1154
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 2: the organizers and based of the community. These were people

1155
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 2: often bringing children into the world is duels or you know, midwives.

1156
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 2: And it's yeah, it's fascinating to consider. I had I

1157
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 2: had the link of as Christianity was forced on enslaged people,

1158
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 2: the rituals and traditions of the Christian Church were intermingled

1159
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 2: with who do but linking that then to organize movements.

1160
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 2: I hadn't had that chain link yet.

1161
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 1: No, And it's he makes it like it's one of

1162
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 1: the main things that du Bois ends up writing about

1163
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 1: in this piece is about partly because there's more information

1164
01:03:57,440 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: about how the church groups did it right. Yeah, but

1165
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 1: it's like like syncretic Christianity is something that is really

1166
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,080
Speaker 1: interesting as relates to I've studied more about a colonization

1167
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 1: like Ireland, right, you know, you have the Irish Catholics

1168
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 1: that are a syncretic faith that is still believes in

1169
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: fairy wells up until like the eighteen hundreds, which is

1170
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 1: like fourteen hundred years after they all supposedly became Christians.

1171
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:21,439
Speaker 1: You know. And this isn't to say that the Black

1172
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 1: churches today are not fully Christian, just that syncretism and

1173
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 1: the transition of religion is like a more complicated and

1174
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 1: interesting process than people give it credit for. Absolutely, the

1175
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 1: church became one of the centers of black cooperative life

1176
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 1: and through that one of the centers of revolt and

1177
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 1: also building cooperative economies, which are not wholly separate things.

1178
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 1: Several of the most ambitious slaver vaults in the US

1179
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 1: grew out of Black churches. Take for example, Denmark Vesse.

1180
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 1: Denmark Vessey was a black man who bought his way

1181
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 1: out of slavery in South Carolina. He literally won a

1182
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 1: lottery and was like, sweet by me, that's what I want.

1183
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:06,160
Speaker 2: Holy Molly, that it would be the luckiest day.

1184
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: Oh my god, wow, I know.

1185
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 2: And also how chet it's like watching kids try to

1186
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 2: get into schools by winning a lottery. You're like, this

1187
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 2: probably shouldn't be how that words sign?

1188
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, God, so he's free and he starts an

1189
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 1: African Methodist Episcopal congregation in South Carolina and immediately starts

1190
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 1: illegally teaching in slave kids how to read, which is

1191
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 1: a fucking cool thing to do.

1192
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 2: It's fucking awesome.

1193
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 1: Then he wasn't able. He's a carpenter, and he makes

1194
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 1: enough money that he should be able to buy his

1195
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 1: wife and children their freedom. Their owner won't sell bitch, Okay,

1196
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 1: So he did what any reasonable person would do and

1197
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 1: tried to overthrow the slave empire of the United States

1198
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 1: of America.

1199
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,240
Speaker 2: What other options have you left me? I tried you

1200
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:02,000
Speaker 2: pay Dan, you said no, So.

1201
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:05,600
Speaker 1: I know I have to fight you. I genuinely like

1202
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 1: I would watch this movie like that is a perfectly

1203
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: natural and worthy conclusion to reach. Yes, he planned for

1204
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:15,919
Speaker 1: a revolt on the Steel Day, and this is okay.

1205
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 1: So it's like been proven and Corty did this. But

1206
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 1: there's like, like, if you read the Wikipedia about this,

1207
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 1: for example, it's all written in the like was accused

1208
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 1: of not like totally absolutely did, But I think all

1209
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:29,919
Speaker 1: this is cool as shit. So I'm just gonna say did,

1210
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 1: because he like you do the crime you do the

1211
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 1: time you can brag about it, whether he did it

1212
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 1: or not. You know what, I like this rule. Okay, Yeah,

1213
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 1: I have a friend I probably brought this up before.

1214
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 1: I have a friend who was like convicted of all

1215
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 1: of the property destruction out of protest in Pittsburgh. Like

1216
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 1: they were like, you smashed every window that was broken,

1217
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 1: which was like physically impossible for him to have done. Sure,

1218
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 1: and then he like went to prison about it for

1219
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 1: a while. And now I'm like, yeah, you could tell

1220
01:06:57,320 --> 01:06:58,800
Speaker 1: people you broke every window.

1221
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 2: He they absolutely could. Absolutely, I did it.

1222
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 1: Yeah the time it was me, I teleport.

1223
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 2: I'm amazing for having done it. Yeah, exactly, You're welcome. Wow.

1224
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 1: So he planned a revolt for b Steel Day July fourteenth,

1225
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 1: eighteen twenty two. Thousands of people enslaved and free alike,

1226
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 1: almost all but not exclusively black, were in on this plan. Wow.

1227
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 1: Two fucking people out of those thousands snitched them out?

1228
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 2: Now? Was it? Bring them forward? Got to take this

1229
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 2: beating because what.

1230
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:44,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone gets rounded up. Thirty five people, including VESSI,

1231
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 1: are hanged. Of course, the four white conspirators were off

1232
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 1: let off waylighter. They weren't the snitches.

1233
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 2: I know for sure.

1234
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 1: They were let off way lighter. I mean just literally

1235
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 1: because they're white, right, and they get a few months

1236
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:58,959
Speaker 1: in prison each, I think they're in court, they're able

1237
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:01,920
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, I was totally doing it for money,

1238
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 1: you know.

1239
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 2: And so therefore it's it's a job. Yeah, you could

1240
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:11,959
Speaker 2: understand money. What else could I do? What? Oh? God,

1241
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 2: capitalism you wild? Wow? This whole system trash wow.

1242
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:23,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. But I will say one, Okay, clearly, this uprising

1243
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 1: did not destroy the slave Empire of the United States,

1244
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 1: but his kids lived became free because they survived long

1245
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 1: enough to see the end of legal chattel slavery in

1246
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 1: the United States. And this these insurrections, you throw enough

1247
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:45,360
Speaker 1: sparks and eventually fire catches, and that's what ended slavery.

1248
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:48,280
Speaker 1: So that's one way the church was involved, is that

1249
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 1: he was you know, he ran a church.

1250
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:50,720
Speaker 4: Uh.

1251
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 1: Nat Turner probably the most famous rebel in Southern history.

1252
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 1: And I'm not going to talk about him because I'm

1253
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 1: planning to do the whole thing about him. He was

1254
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 1: a preacher also, but because the church was where people

1255
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:02,840
Speaker 1: would meet and try and overthrow the slave empire, it

1256
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 1: was under constant scrutiny from the evil Empire. The enforcers

1257
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 1: of that evil empire, and still people organized despite all

1258
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:17,400
Speaker 1: of that. And we'll talk about what they organized on Wednesday. Yeah,

1259
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:20,679
Speaker 1: but first we could talk about the stuff that you do.

1260
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,760
Speaker 1: And I mean producing is literally a form of organization,

1261
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 1: but you know it's not the only thing you do.

1262
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:30,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh, it's not what even Yeah, I think mostly

1263
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 2: right now, I've been working with a friend to get

1264
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:40,080
Speaker 2: her film production company up. She has this radical idea

1265
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 2: of how to make filmmaking a mentally healthy and safe

1266
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:47,680
Speaker 2: space to work, which it is currently not. It is

1267
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:51,599
Speaker 2: both our passion. She comes from a poor background. I

1268
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:56,640
Speaker 2: come from a middle class background, but we neither of

1269
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 2: us have money to start this career. Took a long time,

1270
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 2: you know, And so we're working on like how do

1271
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 2: you create ethical hours and still make your day and

1272
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 2: get your shots? How do you film difficult scenes in

1273
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 2: a way that both protects the performers but also everyone

1274
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 2: working around that scene. And it's been a great honor,

1275
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:19,240
Speaker 2: and so where our film is, we're applying to festivals

1276
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 2: right now, and it's something I hope to be doing

1277
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 2: more of and bringing more of that into some of

1278
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 2: my other spaces, like my program at here at iHeart

1279
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,679
Speaker 2: Next up where we train and develop folks who've never

1280
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 2: made podcasts before but have interesting stories to tell.

1281
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:34,800
Speaker 4: You know.

1282
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:37,600
Speaker 2: I think it's sort of the form of organizing I

1283
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 2: found I can take on right now. Is helping people

1284
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 2: who want to have careers and the arts find ways

1285
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 2: to do it in a way that's financially reasonable. Money

1286
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:51,040
Speaker 2: is keeping people out of the arts. It's really bothering me.

1287
01:10:51,479 --> 01:10:55,679
Speaker 2: So this is my one little way in. But yeah, yeah,

1288
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:57,719
Speaker 2: I guess that's kind of what I do outside of work.

1289
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 2: But again, always it's just more work.

1290
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:03,280
Speaker 1: But I mean that stuff matters, And like the idea

1291
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:05,920
Speaker 1: of like, you know, we complain a lot about how

1292
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 1: tech culture wants to like work everyone to death, right,

1293
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 1: you know. Tech culture is like, oh, if you don't

1294
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 1: work eighty hours a week for my tech startup, you

1295
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 1: don't care about it, yea, And like where did they

1296
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:17,800
Speaker 1: get that idea from? Well, nonprofits and the arts are

1297
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,679
Speaker 1: the two places where that has been the norm forever,

1298
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,960
Speaker 1: where everyone working on a project is expected like, well,

1299
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:27,639
Speaker 1: since you care about it, you're going to work yourself

1300
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 1: to death over it.

1301
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:32,160
Speaker 2: You know, it's so unnecessary. You can make beautiful, impactful

1302
01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 2: art without having to feel like shit without missing out

1303
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:40,280
Speaker 2: on important life events, without stressing yourself into like an

1304
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 2: unrecognizable shape. Yeah. So yeah, more of that if you

1305
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:46,920
Speaker 2: can find spaces to do it within your own life.

1306
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:49,760
Speaker 2: I say, tecklate, it's been rather rewarding.

1307
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:56,720
Speaker 1: Hell yeah. My plug this week is that today if

1308
01:11:56,720 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 1: you're listening on the day that drops, which is June tenth,

1309
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, the kickstarter for my book, The Sapling Cage,

1310
01:12:05,080 --> 01:12:07,479
Speaker 1: my debut novel. I've written a ton of novellas and

1311
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 1: short story collections and all kinds of other books, but

1312
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:11,719
Speaker 1: I've never written a novel that well, okay, I ghost

1313
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:13,599
Speaker 1: wrote some romance novels, but I'm not allowed to say

1314
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 1: that I did that. Well, I'm not allowed to tell

1315
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,160
Speaker 1: you what they are. My debut novel, The Sapling Cage,

1316
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:20,920
Speaker 1: is being kickstarted as of today, and you can find

1317
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:22,800
Speaker 1: it on Kickstarter and you can pre order it there,

1318
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:26,040
Speaker 1: and I'm really excited about it. I'm trying to make

1319
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 1: this the biggest book debut of my career, and you

1320
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:33,120
Speaker 1: all can help buy backing it. And I'm going to

1321
01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:35,800
Speaker 1: read a blurb for my own book. I didn't write

1322
01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:41,400
Speaker 1: this blurb. Another author, Nissi Shall wrote this blurb, simple, strange,

1323
01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 1: and elegantly effective. The Sapling Cage begins Margaret Kiljoy's anarchist

1324
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:48,439
Speaker 1: fantasy series with an engrossing story of the struggles between

1325
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 1: tax collecting knights, barfly thieves, and apprentice witches still too

1326
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 1: raw to use the magic they can barely see out

1327
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:58,000
Speaker 1: of the corners of their eyes. There are goodies and

1328
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:01,559
Speaker 1: baddies of all genders. There's bullying monsters and healing rainbows

1329
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:05,200
Speaker 1: and rotten scheming nobles. This book was so gripping that,

1330
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 1: though I tried my best to slow down as the

1331
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:10,000
Speaker 1: end came rushing nearer and nearer, I just couldn't do it.

1332
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:12,760
Speaker 1: Now that I've reached the last page, the only thing

1333
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 1: keeping me from crying about it is the knowledge that

1334
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:17,479
Speaker 1: there's more of Killjoy's glorious epic to come.

1335
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:20,960
Speaker 2: I'm soul. That's a really good one.

1336
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:23,000
Speaker 1: Ah, thanks Margaret.

1337
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:27,200
Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, got some chills and very excited. That's gonna

1338
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:27,559
Speaker 2: be fun.

1339
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:33,479
Speaker 1: Thanks, and you all can hear more about the story

1340
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:37,040
Speaker 1: of this podcast, well, not the story about the podcast. Whatever,

1341
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:39,519
Speaker 1: come back. We're gonna have another episode of this on Wednesday.

1342
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:43,240
Speaker 1: Talk to you then, Hi, Margaret, here just with one

1343
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:45,360
Speaker 1: more plug. If you're listening to this episode on the

1344
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:47,800
Speaker 1: day it came out, on June tenth, twenty twenty four,

1345
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:50,640
Speaker 1: then this will be timely. And if you're listening some

1346
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 1: other time you can still hear it. It'll still sadly

1347
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 1: be timely, because tomorrow is June eleventh, and I'm going

1348
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:03,839
Speaker 1: to read a statement about what that means. June eleventh

1349
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 1: is the International Day of Solidarity with Marius Mason and

1350
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:10,320
Speaker 1: long term anarchist prisoners. This day seeks to strengthen the

1351
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 1: connections between those behind the prison walls and those of

1352
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:16,439
Speaker 1: us on the outside through benefit events, actions, and spreading

1353
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:19,439
Speaker 1: the names and stories of our friends locked away since

1354
01:14:19,479 --> 01:14:22,719
Speaker 1: twenty eleven. This day intends to address the specific issues

1355
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:25,639
Speaker 1: facing long term prisoners and strives to build a network

1356
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:29,200
Speaker 1: of solidarity that has built on memory, action, and remaining

1357
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:32,400
Speaker 1: unyielding in the face of repression. To learn more about

1358
01:14:32,439 --> 01:14:35,080
Speaker 1: the history of June eleventh, the prisoners we support, or

1359
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:37,439
Speaker 1: to get some ideas for organizing a June eleventh event

1360
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:41,559
Speaker 1: where you live, visit June one one dot org.

1361
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:49,800
Speaker 4: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1362
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:52,960
Speaker 4: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media.

1363
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 4: Visit our website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1364
01:14:56,479 --> 01:14:59,760
Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1365
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:00,600
Speaker 4: your podcasts.

1366
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:04,760
Speaker 2: M