Speaker 1: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
Speaker 1: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in
Speaker 1: the world, it is so great to have you here
Speaker 1: back for another episode as we, of course break down
Speaker 1: the psychology of our twenties. I just want to say
Speaker 1: a huge, big fool thank you to all of the
Speaker 1: love and support that you guys have shown my new podcast,
Speaker 1: Mantra so far. In case you haven't heard, I launched
Speaker 1: a new show. You know, I just wanted to spend
Speaker 1: even more hours behind a microphone. One podcast wasn't enough.
Speaker 1: But Martra is basically a weekly podcast that I put
Speaker 1: out every single Monday that gives you a phrase and
Speaker 1: affirmation for your week to help you guide your week,
Speaker 1: whether it is I release the need for external validation,
Speaker 1: I cultivate peace within I create my own reality. We
Speaker 1: go into what each mantra means at the start of
Speaker 1: every week to kind of give you some guidance and
Speaker 1: some inspiration as you start things off and as you
Speaker 1: get into it whatever it is you are going through.
Speaker 1: So the first episode was released yesterday on the thirteenth
Speaker 1: of January, and the love that you guys have poured
Speaker 1: into that show already left me kind of speechless. So
Speaker 1: thank you so much for those who have already listened,
Speaker 1: already rated the show, who are following along on Instagram,
Speaker 1: every single little two second act, whether you're rating it,
Speaker 1: whether you're just playing the first you know, thirty seconds,
Speaker 1: whether you honestly just hit follow, means the world. So
Speaker 1: I really really appreciate it. But with that aside, just
Speaker 1: to say a big thank you, I want to talk
Speaker 1: about today's topic, because today we are talking about alcohol,
Speaker 1: specifically what alcohol does to our brains, how it impacts
Speaker 1: us emotionally and psychologically, and also this shift we're kind
Speaker 1: of seeing in society today towards sobriety, especially in our
Speaker 1: generation of twenty somethings. A lot of us are starting
Speaker 1: to question whether our current drinking habits, both individually and
Speaker 1: as a culture, are really what's best. And this has
Speaker 1: been a big topic of conversation in my life at
Speaker 1: the moment. It's been coming up everywhere I look because
Speaker 1: I'm doing dry January, and you know what, I just
Speaker 1: kind of said it as a personal challenge, and if
Speaker 1: I'm being completely honest with you all, I did not
Speaker 1: expect it to be as hard as it was. It
Speaker 1: honestly shocked me a bit because I'm not someone who's
Speaker 1: ever had a problem with alcohol. I could always stop
Speaker 1: drinking when I wanted, But suddenly these thirty days have
Speaker 1: been hard, and it's really got me thinking about, well,
Speaker 1: the psychology of alcohol and the role that it plays
Speaker 1: during this decade of life. I think it's been so
Speaker 1: difficult because every social event or thing that's happening, every
Speaker 1: interaction or opportunity to out with my friends kind of
Speaker 1: has alcohol at the center. Maybe not every single event,
Speaker 1: but probably every second one, whether it's going to the pub,
Speaker 1: going out for drinks, going to a party, a birthday
Speaker 1: of celebration, dinner, alcohol is very much at the center.
Speaker 1: And honestly, as someone who actually does like the taste
Speaker 1: of wine and who will have a few glasses of
Speaker 1: wine or a beer, I never really noticed how dependent
Speaker 1: those situations felt on drinking until I put myself in
Speaker 1: a position where I couldn't participate in kind of the
Speaker 1: group activity. What I have noticed has been really interesting
Speaker 1: as well, both health wise, mental health wise, brain wise,
Speaker 1: but also social wise. So I want to not only
Speaker 1: discuss the role of alcohol on our brains and our bodies,
Speaker 1: because I think that's just something we should all understand.
Speaker 1: But also what happens when we quit alcohol, what changes
Speaker 1: you're likely to notice, how to deal with things like
Speaker 1: hangs out, and the rise of sober curiosity amongst us.
Speaker 1: Also some of the things I've learned going out sober
Speaker 1: that might surprise you. I also want to go kind
Speaker 1: of more in depth into the psychology of dependence, substance abuse,
Speaker 1: why we do feel like alcohol is so conditioned into
Speaker 1: how we socialize, and so much more. I think this
Speaker 1: episode is really important and it's essential listening if you're
Speaker 1: in your twenties and beyond, because how often do we
Speaker 1: really pause and consider how big of a role this
Speaker 1: substance plays in our lives. You know, until recently, I
Speaker 1: hadn't really done that thinking. So this is also such
Speaker 1: a really richly and deeply researched area.
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 1: You just want to say, the evidence and the science
Speaker 1: is constantly evolving when it comes to alcohol, Like a
Speaker 1: paper literally came out yesterday that I didn't get a
Speaker 1: chance to put into this episode, So as of right now,
Speaker 1: hopefully it is accurate, But maybe in a couple of
Speaker 1: years the research will change again and I'll have to
Speaker 1: revisit this topic, but for right now, this is what
Speaker 1: we know about the psychology of alcohol, specifically in our twenties.
Speaker 1: So let's get into it. Let's get some basics down
Speaker 1: pat first. How is alcohol process by the body? Why
Speaker 1: does it make us feel the way it does good
Speaker 1: and bad? What is the impact on the brain. Three
Speaker 1: things we really need to know. So first thing to
Speaker 1: know when you have a glass of wine, when you
Speaker 1: have a little apparol, sprits, your martini, your shots of vodka,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, insert drink of choice here. The key
Speaker 1: chemical or substance that we are interested in that makes
Speaker 1: alcohol alcohol is ethanol. This is what is going to
Speaker 1: make you feel tipsy or drunk. And ethanol is really
Speaker 1: just a byproduct of the fermentation of a plant. So
Speaker 1: for wine, it's grapes, For beer, it's barley, for vode curates,
Speaker 1: potatoes or sugar or rice gin it's juniper berries. And
Speaker 1: fermentation basically just means that the fruit is rotting, it's fermenting.
Speaker 1: So when you drink alcohol, you're basically just drinking some
Speaker 1: really funky juice. You know, something that is rotten. And
Speaker 1: it's important to note that our body actually sees that
Speaker 1: in some ways as poison, like it's not meant to
Speaker 1: be here, even if it feels nice. If you, for example,
Speaker 1: see someone throw up from drinking too much alcohol on
Speaker 1: a night out, that is basically your body being like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, we have been poisoned. Get this stuff
Speaker 1: out of me. And I remember someone telling me that
Speaker 1: when I was at Uni. Actually she was like, that
Speaker 1: is your body responding to an overdose, a poison overdose,
Speaker 1: And it really changed my whole perspective on how much
Speaker 1: I would drink on a night out. Like binge drinking
Speaker 1: was just so casually prevalent in my university experience that
Speaker 1: hearing that person explain it that way like kind of
Speaker 1: really shocked me. So, you know, on a less extreme note,
Speaker 1: when our body metabolizes alcohol ethanol, even in small quantities,
Speaker 1: a number of things happen. I'm not going to get
Speaker 1: too scientific, but essentially it can only be processed by
Speaker 1: our liver, which essentially does see ethanol as something that
Speaker 1: is harmful and it tries to clear it out of
Speaker 1: our system. It tries to clear it out of our
Speaker 1: body by processing it. But when we have more than
Speaker 1: the liver can process at any given time. This excess
Speaker 1: alcohol in our body is what starts to give us
Speaker 1: that loose, drunken, tipsy feeling because the alcohol is not
Speaker 1: being processed as fast as it's coming in. That's not
Speaker 1: necessarily a problem at low levels. Only at high levels,
Speaker 1: and all those feelings that we are going to be
Speaker 1: experiencing occur because alcohol is not only a drug, but
Speaker 1: it's what we call a depressant drug. So in comparison
Speaker 1: to stimulant drugs like MDMA, cocaine, that sort of thing
Speaker 1: we have to press in drugs like alcohol marijuana. Now
Speaker 1: they're called depressants because of the impact they have on
Speaker 1: the central nervous system. And the impact that alcohol or
Speaker 1: ethanol has is one of basically sedation. So your central
Speaker 1: nervous system, hear that come up a lot. It is
Speaker 1: made up of two things, your brain and your spine,
Speaker 1: your spinal cord. And alcohol is actually one of the
Speaker 1: few substances that can cross the blood brain barrier, meaning
Speaker 1: that it can almost reach into our brain cells and
Speaker 1: impact them directly.
Speaker 2: And when it.
Speaker 1: Does that, it slows everything down and it disrupts normal functioning.
Speaker 1: So basically, at any given moment, right now, you right now,
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast, all of your neurons in your
Speaker 1: brain are chattering away. They're sending information back and forth
Speaker 1: like little workers in a big warehouse, and they're thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: this is interesting, this is an interesting. Pay attention to this.
Speaker 1: While you're watching the road, while you're cleaning. They're sourcing
Speaker 1: all this information. And alcohol is like going into that
Speaker 1: warehouse and slowly turning down the lights so that none
Speaker 1: of those little worker neurons can see where they're going,
Speaker 1: and they can't talk as easily. That is basically alcohol's effect.
Speaker 1: It is kind of shutting down the systems, making it
Speaker 1: harder for your neurons to talk. Now, this, this depress
Speaker 1: an effect on our brain is what creates so many
Speaker 1: of those typical effects that we associate with drinking. So
Speaker 1: big one feeling a little bit clumsy, a bit slower,
Speaker 1: but also less inhibited because all of those parts of
Speaker 1: your brain that would normally tell you to hush or
Speaker 1: would respond to physical stimuli, they are kind of quietening down.
Speaker 1: They're finding it harder to communicate with each other. Think
Speaker 1: about like, in a normal circumstance, you go to say
Speaker 1: something embarrassing or weird, and your brain goes Okay, let's
Speaker 1: read this, Let's read the cues. Let's think this through.
Speaker 1: We're not going to say that, but when you're drinking,
Speaker 1: your brain gets to that realization a little bit too slow.
Speaker 1: It all so slows down our anxiety, meaning that your
Speaker 1: anxious thoughts for a lot of us finally seem quieter.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that in a second and
Speaker 1: why that's actually going to backfire on you. Another impact
Speaker 1: that alcohol has that comes from that sedative effect is
Speaker 1: slurred speech. It's why you should also never drive when drinking,
Speaker 1: because your response times are slower, even if you don't
Speaker 1: think that they are. It's why we feel sleepy. Alcohol
Speaker 1: also causes our brain to release something called opioid peptides,
Speaker 1: which basically are the thing that signals the brain to
Speaker 1: release dopamine and serotonin. And when they do, those areas
Speaker 1: of our brain open the floodglates and they let out.
Speaker 1: They make more of these neurotransmitters available to us, which
Speaker 1: is what makes us feel really happy and euphoric because
Speaker 1: of how this substance impacts our reward pathways and also
Speaker 1: the release of dolphins. So alcohol triggers opioid peptides, which
Speaker 1: trigger dopamine and serotonin and in the process also release
Speaker 1: releases in dolphins. It's interesting because they actually only really
Speaker 1: discovered that this is what was happening, this peptide to
Speaker 1: don't mean to endorphin link about twelve years ago. You know,
Speaker 1: they long assumed it, but it was really hard to
Speaker 1: prove that this was what was why alcohol made us
Speaker 1: so happy. The way they did finally prove it was
Speaker 1: that they did a study back in twenty twelve where
Speaker 1: they injected twenty five people, half of whom were heavy drinkers,
Speaker 1: half of whom weren't, with a drug that would bind
Speaker 1: to their opioid receptors. But then they radioactively tagged those receptors,
Speaker 1: so they basically gave them like a low level of
Speaker 1: a drug that stimulated their opioid receptors, and that drug
Speaker 1: would obviously attach to those receptors so they could see
Speaker 1: where they were in the brain. And then they asked
Speaker 1: them to drink alcohol. And the people who got particularly
Speaker 1: a lot of pleasure out of drinking, so heavy drinkers,
Speaker 1: they all those areas, those places where the opioid peptides
Speaker 1: were located based on that previous drug insertion. They lit
Speaker 1: up even further, and so that really showed researchers and
Speaker 1: scientists only twelve years ago that that was the system
Speaker 1: and the reason why we get that euphoric feeling. So
Speaker 1: the effects of alcohol they're not just physical and biological,
Speaker 1: they're also really psychological, not just because of that happy feeling,
Speaker 1: but because of the impact on our mind and our
Speaker 1: mood in general, and also our personality. This amazing paper
Speaker 1: from two thousand and eight titled why do we drink
Speaker 1: puts it really perfectly. We drink because of alcohol's ability
Speaker 1: to alter our emotional state and make us more like
Speaker 1: the person we actually want to be, even if just
Speaker 1: for a second. We want to be the confident person,
Speaker 1: the relaxed person, the disinhibited person, the less stress person.
Speaker 1: And because alcohol gives us a gateway to this realization
Speaker 1: of the ideal self, that is actually what can make
Speaker 1: it so addictive and what can fuel dependency. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not just the feeling, it's who it makes us
Speaker 1: become in comparison to who we are in our everyday lives.
Speaker 1: You know, that is one factor. I also think the
Speaker 1: other factor why the other reason it's so normalized and
Speaker 1: while widely used, is of course, the social element to it.
Speaker 1: How can we forget that?
Speaker 2: You know, that.
Speaker 1: Social celibratory component to the use of alcohol is what
Speaker 1: makes it so hard for us to contemplate stepping away
Speaker 1: from it, because we think that we're going to miss
Speaker 1: out on so many other things. You know, for millennium,
Speaker 1: people have known that alcohol makes us have more fun,
Speaker 1: it makes us merry, makes us open, more relaxed, and
Speaker 1: so it has become integrated into our our culture, our
Speaker 1: way of communicating and socializing. You know, the earliest evidence
Speaker 1: of humans making and drinking alcohol was from seven thousand BC,
Speaker 1: before Christ. That is a lot of years ago. That
Speaker 1: is definitely not modern history. Actually, where they found this
Speaker 1: wine was in China in what is now known as
Speaker 1: the Yellow River Valley, and it really goes to show
Speaker 1: that humans have for a long time used this substance
Speaker 1: to alter their state of mind and for enjoyment.
Speaker 2: Now, you can obviously.
Speaker 1: Get this buzzed, you for it relaxed feeling from even
Speaker 1: just one drink, even a couple of drinks, but at
Speaker 1: some point your body can't process the alcohol fast enough,
Speaker 1: and so initially you will get that buzzed feeling, and
Speaker 1: then you'll start feeling nauseous, dizzy.
Speaker 2: Confused, and you may even blackout.
Speaker 1: Let's actually talk about what happens to your brain when
Speaker 1: you blackout. Now I'm talking blacking out passing out, So
Speaker 1: not like, you know, being completely unconscious, but being conscious
Speaker 1: but having no memory of what has happened. When this happens,
Speaker 1: you've basically drunk enough alcohol to disrupt a really vital
Speaker 1: part of your brain called the hippocampus. Now, this part
Speaker 1: of your brain, it's responsible for a lot of things,
Speaker 1: but in this context, it's really responsible for consolidating and
Speaker 1: storing memories. So although you might be awake and you
Speaker 1: might be currently experiencing your reality, your brain cannot take
Speaker 1: those moments and store them properly. So that is what
Speaker 1: leads to those gaps in what you can remember everything
Speaker 1: that you're experiencing when you're really drunk on a night
Speaker 1: out or wherever you are. Basically, it's only able to
Speaker 1: be temporarily held in sensory and short term memory, which
Speaker 1: you know normally has a life expectancy of about a
Speaker 1: couple of minutes. So that's why you might wake up
Speaker 1: the next morning and so, hey, this is so blurry,
Speaker 1: I can't remember saying that I can't remember doing that,
Speaker 1: even though you hadn't necessarily passed out at any point.
Speaker 1: When we pass out, on the other hand, what we're
Speaker 1: experiencing is as I described before, basically minor alcohol poisoning.
Speaker 1: And when I say minor, I mean less extreme than
Speaker 1: the worst case scenario. But honestly, any kind of alcohol
Speaker 1: poisoning is not that great. And the next morning, you know,
Speaker 1: how can we talk about the psychology of alcohol and
Speaker 1: not talk about the next day. When we've drunk past
Speaker 1: that limit, we get a hangover, and that's typically due
Speaker 1: to dehydration and because when your liver breaks down alcohol,
Speaker 1: a byproduct is called en settle a hyde, which is
Speaker 1: what makes you really nauseous and gives you headaches. And
Speaker 1: then we also have anxiety as a component of that.
Speaker 1: I made a full episode on anxiety maybe two years ago.
Speaker 1: The episode is called The Psychology of Anxiety that goes
Speaker 1: really into depth on this subject, but as a summary,
Speaker 1: when we drink, part of why we feel that calm
Speaker 1: feeling I was talking about is also because of the
Speaker 1: release of a neurotransmitter called gabba, and in response to alcohol,
Speaker 1: our brain dumps a bunch of this into our body.
Speaker 1: Gaba has that the sedative effect. It really slows things down.
Speaker 1: It reduces your anxiety, It reduces chata.
Speaker 2: Between your neurons.
Speaker 1: The next day though, our brain is like, all right, cool,
Speaker 1: we need to get everything back and balance now, so
Speaker 1: it releases more of gabba's counterpart, glutamate. Now, glutamate has
Speaker 1: the opposite effect. It has an exciderary effect, and that
Speaker 1: is why you feel quite anxious the next morning, because
Speaker 1: it takes a while for your brain to really find
Speaker 1: the right level and restore that normal chemical balance. So
Speaker 1: it's pumping in more glutamate, pumping in more gaba, pumping
Speaker 1: in more glutamating, and you know they're kind of trying
Speaker 1: to race to the top, and your anxiety is rising
Speaker 1: and rising. That is why you can feel really overwhelmed by,
Speaker 1: oh my god, what did.
Speaker 2: I say last night? What did I do?
Speaker 1: Even when you didn't do anything, you feel like there's
Speaker 1: this lingering sense that something is wrong and this rising
Speaker 1: anxiety in your body that, my friends, is glutamate. So
Speaker 1: I think you know that even that interaction between gabber
Speaker 1: and glutamate really sums up alcohol consumption for me. For
Speaker 1: every reaction you have with alcohol, there is a counter reaction.
Speaker 1: You might feel happy and merry, but then the next
Speaker 1: day you might feel sad and depressed. When the buzz
Speaker 1: wears off. You might feel uninhibited, but the next day
Speaker 1: you feel anxious again. And for me, alcohol also was
Speaker 1: just a really terrible contributor to my mental health because obviously,
Speaker 1: like you're feeling stressed and overwhelmed, you've had a really
Speaker 1: hard day, you might have a couple glasses of wine.
Speaker 1: But I was finding that I would wake up the
Speaker 1: next day. Firstly, I wasn't as productive. I didn't have
Speaker 1: a much mental clarity, which is so important to me.
Speaker 1: But secondly, all of my anxious, stressful, worrisome feelings and
Speaker 1: sensations were just heightened and elevated, and it was unbearable.
Speaker 1: And that is something that I have noticed, you know,
Speaker 1: in this short period of time and the two weeks
Speaker 1: that I haven't been drinking, my anxiety symptoms have declined,
Speaker 1: like they're still there, but they feel manageable. Also, I'm getting,
Speaker 1: you know, writing less of a wave, like an up
Speaker 1: and down wave of spiked emotions from really jubilant to
Speaker 1: really you know, terrified and sad. Very interested to see
Speaker 1: how that goes, like in the next two weeks, after
Speaker 1: a month, and even if I can do like six months,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I've got, you know, my book coming out.
Speaker 1: I kind of want to have a little glass of
Speaker 1: champagne with that. But even in moderation, whether my alcohol
Speaker 1: consumption is something that is directly correlated to poor men
Speaker 1: health episodes for me, I do want to put in
Speaker 1: like a little disclaimer here, like this advice and information
Speaker 1: I'm presenting isn't presented in a way to just be
Speaker 1: like everyone be sober and trying to dissuade you from
Speaker 1: ever drinking again. Like I think I will eventually drink again.
Speaker 1: I just also think that what I needed to understand
Speaker 1: was some of the consequences and you know, really reacknowledging
Speaker 1: myself what was happening in my body in response to
Speaker 1: alcohol and whether I was willing to opt into that
Speaker 1: interaction or whether I'd be better off without it. But
Speaker 1: I honestly do think like I'll drink again. I probably
Speaker 1: will get drunk again, probably a couple of times. So
Speaker 1: this isn't like a blanket if you're listening to this
Speaker 1: never drink again kind of episode. I just think that
Speaker 1: any form of education gives you an informed choice. And
Speaker 1: you can take this and be like, cool, I'm still
Speaker 1: going to get blackout drunk, and I wouldn't you know, can,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't promote that, But it's still your choice as
Speaker 1: long as you know what you're doing to your body.
Speaker 1: All right, let's take a shit short break because something
Speaker 1: we haven't spoken about yet is the psychology behind alcohol
Speaker 1: dependency and addiction. I think that deserves its whole section
Speaker 1: of the podcast, so we will be back after this
Speaker 1: short break. Why is it that some people cannot stop
Speaker 1: drinking when they start? Why do some people get really drunk,
Speaker 1: make terrible mistakes, ruin relationships and they still cannot quit. Basically,
Speaker 1: I think the question that I'm asking is what makes
Speaker 1: alcohol so addictive for some people? And it really, it
Speaker 1: really is, even if we don't acknowledge it. Researchers at
Speaker 1: Oxford University they've actually called it the second most addictive
Speaker 1: drug on the planet, second only to heroin. Like that's
Speaker 1: wild to me, Yet it's so widely accepted. If you
Speaker 1: know we're all going around doing heroin every Friday, Saturday,
Speaker 1: in odd Tuesday, you best believe that your friends would
Speaker 1: be like, hey, intervention happening here. This isn't a good idea,
Speaker 1: But alcohol is just not treated with the same level
Speaker 1: of caution. What really makes alcohol so addictive, and I've
Speaker 1: already kind of mentioned it is what it does to
Speaker 1: us psychologically as well as physically and psychologically. What it
Speaker 1: does is that it numbs us. But not only that,
Speaker 1: it also lights up the reward centers in our brain.
Speaker 1: So you know, of course our brain is going to
Speaker 1: continue to repeat behaviors, will tell us to repeat behaviors
Speaker 1: that are pleasurable, rewarding. And also, you know, alcohol provides
Speaker 1: relief in a sense from really hard things, from negative circumstances.
Speaker 1: When that association between you know, alcohol makes me happy,
Speaker 1: alcohol takes away bad things. When that association becomes a pattern,
Speaker 1: that becomes a habit, it becomes a lot harder and
Speaker 1: harder to stop. We also have to acknowledge, you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of people feel more like themselves, I guess
Speaker 1: in their drunk state, and so of course they're going
Speaker 1: to continue to drink, and sometimes drink heavily to put
Speaker 1: them back in the shoes of this person they wish
Speaker 1: that they were. This Really, this pattern and association is
Speaker 1: really the neurological basis for addiction, and we typically see
Speaker 1: addiction as happening in three stages. So for speaking of alcohol,
Speaker 1: often people begin with the binge and intoxication stage, where
Speaker 1: we're experiencing all the pleasure, we're experiencing, all the happy thoughts.
Speaker 1: We associate drinking with really fun things, environments, people, and
Speaker 1: it hasn't gotten bad yet. But then we get to
Speaker 1: the withdrawal period, where it just feels crap to not
Speaker 1: be drinking because of the hangovers, whatever, and also the
Speaker 1: negative effects stage. So when we do stop, we become irritable, sad, depressed, anxious, anxious,
Speaker 1: so we drink again to reduce the stress of not drinking.
Speaker 1: And then that is really followed by the preoccupation and
Speaker 1: anticipation stage. This is when we have strong urges, we
Speaker 1: have cravings when they're not acceptable. Maybe we are watching
Speaker 1: the clock for five PM with sneaking.
Speaker 2: Drinks at work.
Speaker 1: This is where we don't feel like we can have
Speaker 1: fun without it, we don't think we can function without it,
Speaker 1: and it's where you know, alcohol abuse disorder and alcohol
Speaker 1: addiction really kind of takes hold. Some of us are
Speaker 1: more prone to this than others. And one of the
Speaker 1: biggest factors that makes us more prone to it is genetics.
Speaker 1: It's genetic factors, and recent studies, including one from only
Speaker 1: last year, have showed that there are certain genes associated
Speaker 1: with an addiction or dependency on alcohol, and those genes
Speaker 1: are inherited some you know, scientists, some researchers even call
Speaker 1: substance use disorders or alcoholism a complex genetic disease, a
Speaker 1: genetic disease like you know, those that cause birth defects
Speaker 1: or birth deformities. And it's also linked to generational trauma.
Speaker 1: It's linked to environment, to learned behaviors, all of which
Speaker 1: are kind of passed down from those above us, passed
Speaker 1: down from our family. And you know, of course trauma
Speaker 1: comes into play here. You know, a study in Australia
Speaker 1: found that a third of adults who were exposed to
Speaker 1: childhood trauma go on to abuse alcohol later in life,
Speaker 1: a third of them. And you know, as a country
Speaker 1: who has Australia being you know as a terrible history,
Speaker 1: a terrible, terrible history, you know, you can see why
Speaker 1: people whose families and whose culture have endured that suffering
Speaker 1: would have problems with alcohol because, as it's called it's
Speaker 1: a complex genetic and generational disease. That's how some people
Speaker 1: really see it. This is why I really think that
Speaker 1: people who struggle with alcoholism or substance addiction or abuse
Speaker 1: of any kind, they deserve so much sympathy.
Speaker 2: Maybe people will get upset.
Speaker 1: At me for saying that and say, you know, I
Speaker 1: know my uncle has this, and he doesn't deserve a
Speaker 1: lick of sympathy. He did this to himself. That's your
Speaker 1: perspective and your truth. What I'm saying is that I
Speaker 1: don't think anyone would choose that life for themselves. No one,
Speaker 1: as a child, as a three four five year old
Speaker 1: says when I grow up, I want to be dependent
Speaker 1: on alcohol. No one dreams of that. But I've also
Speaker 1: seen in my own life how easy it is to
Speaker 1: fall into that pattern. I've seen this in people that
Speaker 1: I know who seem totally fine and normal but have
Speaker 1: serious problems with alcohol. They're just able to hide it
Speaker 1: because they have a good support network, because of you know,
Speaker 1: other things.
Speaker 2: In their life.
Speaker 1: You know, I just don't think that it really comes
Speaker 1: down to not being disciplined. I think that or being lazy.
Speaker 1: I really actually think that it can happen to anyone.
Speaker 1: All it takes is one tragedy, one bad year, one
Speaker 1: instance of bad luck, and all you have left might
Speaker 1: be alcohol. That is how you self soothe. And I
Speaker 1: think it's as simple as that it's such a widely
Speaker 1: available and accepted drug that there's also people who don't
Speaker 1: even question that they might have a problem until it's
Speaker 1: too late.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Living in Australia, we have such a huge binge drinking
Speaker 1: culture that I'm so sure that there are people I
Speaker 1: would even know who don't even realize that they have
Speaker 1: a problem until they would try to stop, until they'd
Speaker 1: try to quit, and you know they couldn't do it,
Speaker 1: like even I struggled. There's also the important thing to remember,
Speaker 1: which is that alcohol is commonly used as a maladaptive
Speaker 1: coping mechanism because of again, how it can be used
Speaker 1: to help us manage stress, bad thoughts, inadequacy. It does
Speaker 1: remove bad feelings, but it also prevents a deeper, truer
Speaker 1: form of emotional coping. I think we really need to
Speaker 1: articulate the distinction here between dependence, abuse and addiction, because
Speaker 1: they are used very interchangeably. Even I've been doing so
Speaker 1: so let's clarify this for a second. When people use
Speaker 1: the term dependence, they are usually referring to a physical
Speaker 1: dependence on a substance. So what that is characterized by
Speaker 1: is symptoms of increased tolerance, so it's harder for you
Speaker 1: to get drunk even as you drink more. And also withdrawal,
Speaker 1: so obviously withdrawal is the removal of the substance.
Speaker 2: When you are sober.
Speaker 1: It doesn't feel great, you feel sick, you feel gross
Speaker 1: as the alcohol leaves your body. And while it's possible
Speaker 1: to have a physical dependence without being addicted, often it's
Speaker 1: a very slippery slope and it's right around the corner.
Speaker 1: Addiction is one step above dependence because it's marked by
Speaker 1: a change in behavior that is caused not only by
Speaker 1: biochemical changes in the brain from using alcohol, but also
Speaker 1: psychological changes you know, linked to substance abuse. The substance,
Speaker 1: and in this case it's alcohol, becomes the main priority
Speaker 1: for someone who is suffering from addiction, regardless of the
Speaker 1: harm they cause to themselves or others. So this is
Speaker 1: a really important part, even if it's hurting family members,
Speaker 1: even if you're going to lose your job, like you
Speaker 1: just cannot stop you just cannot stop. Something interesting, though,
Speaker 1: is that you can be addicted to alcohol and not
Speaker 1: abusing it or even using it, Like you could be
Speaker 1: completely sober and still addicted to alcohol, which sounds strange,
Speaker 1: but it's actually a very core philosophy of alcoholics anonymous
Speaker 1: that you're basically always going to be an addict.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: There was some controversy around this because if you tell
Speaker 1: someone who's zero day is so hey, no matter what
Speaker 1: you do, you're always going to be an addict, and
Speaker 1: that is a bad, dirty word, so you better not
Speaker 1: it's not even worth trying. Like, that's not a fun
Speaker 1: thing to hear, you know, it's not a fun thing
Speaker 1: to think that you're forever going to be under the
Speaker 1: control of this substance, or your identity is going to
Speaker 1: be associated with this substance. So some people have said
Speaker 1: that idea that you're always an addict is not necessarily
Speaker 1: good for an optimistic internal environment.
Speaker 2: But there are people.
Speaker 1: Who say, you know, knowing that you are someone who
Speaker 1: is always going to be an addict, who was an addict,
Speaker 1: serves as a good reminder to them that they do
Speaker 1: have a more addictive prone personality, so they shouldn't take
Speaker 1: chances even trying to drink alcoholism in a normal way,
Speaker 1: like that is not something that they can do. So,
Speaker 1: wherever you sit on that kind of scale of whether
Speaker 1: you think it should exist, that you're always an addict
Speaker 1: or not, like it's very much an individual choice, what's
Speaker 1: going to allow you to move past dependency and addiction
Speaker 1: in the best way. There is also, I think one
Speaker 1: less severe level of alcohol dependence or abuse that I
Speaker 1: would call context based dependence. And I think this particularly
Speaker 1: applies to our twenties. You might not have a problem
Speaker 1: with alcohol. You might be able to stop for weeks
Speaker 1: or months, maybe just weeks, let's say that, maybe a
Speaker 1: couple of days. But you know, every time your friends say,
Speaker 1: come out with us, let's go to the club. My god,
Speaker 1: I sound so old, Like let's go clubbing, let's go out,
Speaker 1: let's go to this party, you have to drink. You
Speaker 1: feel like once you're in that environment there.
Speaker 2: Is no stopping you.
Speaker 1: That is not just addiction in the traditional sense, but
Speaker 1: rather a context a contextual reliance on alcohol kind of
Speaker 1: as a social lubricant or a way to fit in.
Speaker 1: Like you could not imagine going to something and not drinking,
Speaker 1: And when you do, it's incredibly hard.
Speaker 2: I think in these.
Speaker 1: Moments, drinking really does become tied to the context rather
Speaker 1: than a personal craving. Like this kind of dependence is subtle,
Speaker 1: because when you're not in those environments, you might not
Speaker 1: want to drink at all, but it's also something that means,
Speaker 1: you know, it's also a form of dependence that can
Speaker 1: go unnoticed. I think it's especially problematic when you're someone
Speaker 1: who gets to the party and can't stop drinking. So
Speaker 1: I think it's really worth reflecting on whether the choice
Speaker 1: to drink in those moments is truly yours or if
Speaker 1: you're being influenced by the environment, by other people's expectations
Speaker 1: of you, and kind of just like this context based reliance.
Speaker 1: You know, if you don't feel good after drinking, and
Speaker 1: if you always like, God, I don't want to do
Speaker 1: that again. If you feel pressured, if you know you
Speaker 1: want to go for a run the next day but
Speaker 1: you still end up going too far, I think that
Speaker 1: that's when you know it's a bit of a dangerous
Speaker 1: social habit. Perhaps even for you. It's more linked to
Speaker 1: FOMA right in the way alcohol juices stress in a
Speaker 1: situation or makes it feel like you belong. You don't
Speaker 1: want to miss out on the fun. Perhaps it's a
Speaker 1: fear of social exclusion, of not being part of the
Speaker 1: interesting stories, of not being part of the moment, But
Speaker 1: it is something that I think if you're in your twenties,
Speaker 1: you need to recognize how does drinking and social acceptance
Speaker 1: go hand in hand. Something really positive that I've seen.
Speaker 1: You know, more and more though, is a lot of
Speaker 1: us taking the sober route or being sober curious, that's
Speaker 1: the name for it.
Speaker 2: These days.
Speaker 1: You know, there is this idea that you're either a
Speaker 1: problem drinker, an alcoholic, or a normal drinker who has
Speaker 1: no issues with alcohol. But more and more definitely seeing
Speaker 1: these like shades of gray when it comes to dependency
Speaker 1: and sober curiosity. Is this amazing kind of lifestyle choice
Speaker 1: that doesn't require complete commitment to going sober for the
Speaker 1: rest of your life, but it does mean that you
Speaker 1: can choose to kind of dip your toes into occasional
Speaker 1: or periodic sobriety and just kind of modify your drinking
Speaker 1: habits without feeling like it's all or nothing. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not because you're necessarily worried about dependency it's more
Speaker 1: that you've evaluated what drinking costs you versus what you
Speaker 1: would benefit from cutting down or going sober for small
Speaker 1: periods of time. I have noticed that more and more
Speaker 1: in my own social circles. Something I actually noticed recently
Speaker 1: was more non alcoholic drinks being available at parties.
Speaker 2: It's become a lot.
Speaker 1: More normal to ask someone like, are you drinking at
Speaker 1: the moment, rather than just assuming that they are more
Speaker 1: people doing dry jen or dry July. And I think
Speaker 1: that's really something we can expect more as we deprioritize
Speaker 1: drinking or make small swaps. And you know, I promise
Speaker 1: to tell you what I've noticed. Mental health thing has
Speaker 1: been one thing, but there are so many other benefits.
Speaker 1: You sleep better, you are less stressed because you're not
Speaker 1: artificially elevating and then lowering and then elevating again your
Speaker 1: gabber and glutamate levels, so your brain and body is
Speaker 1: able to find that sweet spot and stay there. You know,
Speaker 1: if you drink quite a bit and then you suddenly stop,
Speaker 1: sometimes you do experience like a strange spike and anxiety
Speaker 1: in the first few weeks because your brain is adjusting
Speaker 1: to not having this substance. To reduce or relax it.
Speaker 1: But after a while, like it turns out that your
Speaker 1: body can manage that stress itself, it doesn't need the
Speaker 1: help of alcohol. We also see regeneration in the frontal lobe,
Speaker 1: which is where alcohol hits the hardest. The frontal lobe
Speaker 1: and the cerebellum, and the frontal lobe is responsible for
Speaker 1: a lot of our executive functioning and decision making, self control,
Speaker 1: our emotions, personality, And sometimes you might not know it,
Speaker 1: but prolonged and heavy drinking actually kills off brain cells
Speaker 1: in that area and across the brain, and it causes
Speaker 1: your brain to shrink, It reduces brain volume. So that
Speaker 1: is why alcohol is so often implicated in neurological diseases
Speaker 1: like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. When you are young and you
Speaker 1: cut back, you're giving your brain more of a chance,
Speaker 1: and you're allowing your brain space to prune, rewire, keep
Speaker 1: those cells healthy. And that's why you may see an
Speaker 1: increase in mental clarity. Oh my goodness, if I have
Speaker 1: not noticed that I have less brain fog, almost none.
Speaker 1: At the moment, you feel refreshed, you can get more done. Also,
Speaker 1: you know, because your sleep is likely improved as well,
Speaker 1: Like this is all coming together. It's a common myth
Speaker 1: that you know, alcohol helps you sleep. It's where the
Speaker 1: term nightcap came from, like having a drink a cap
Speaker 1: of something to help you fall asleep. Actually, to myth,
Speaker 1: bust that one.
Speaker 2: For you.
Speaker 1: Drinking worsens your sleep quality significantly because it makes it
Speaker 1: harder for you to enter and therefore stay in rem sleep.
Speaker 1: So not drinking better, shut up. One of the things
Speaker 1: I've also noticed that I didn't expect was how much
Speaker 1: inflammation went away in my face particularly, but also in
Speaker 1: my body, Like within a week, I wasn't as puffy,
Speaker 1: I got less headaches, my skin was breaking out less,
Speaker 1: it looked healthier. And that was just me going from
Speaker 1: like mid range social drinking to no drinking at all.
Speaker 1: And it's still made a really big difference, Like, oh
Speaker 1: my goodness, even my hands and like my face is
Speaker 1: the big one where I just feel less like bloated
Speaker 1: and less like puffy. And it's really hard to like
Speaker 1: see I think if you are someone like just like
Speaker 1: a friend or a stranger and you weren't seeing my
Speaker 1: face every day, but obviously as someone who sees it
Speaker 1: every day, like I've definitely noticed this decline. Your liver
Speaker 1: your heart. They both do better. And this raises a
Speaker 1: really important point I haven't spoken about yet, which is
Speaker 1: another myth, the myth that alcohol is actually good for
Speaker 1: our health. I listened to this fascinating podcast by The
Speaker 1: New York Times called How Bad Is Alcohol for You Really,
Speaker 1: in which they basically debunk this idea that alcohol has
Speaker 1: any health benefit. Most of us have probably heard this
Speaker 1: suggestion or this quote unquote fact that a glass of
Speaker 1: red wine is like good for your heart, it has antioxidants,
Speaker 1: like it was even a fact that was like in
Speaker 1: the episode, like in an episode of the Office. It's
Speaker 1: so commonly spread. But actually, when you review the study
Speaker 1: that this fact is taken from the way they interpreted
Speaker 1: their data was really misleading, and now so many people
Speaker 1: believe a false conclusion. When they conducted this original study,
Speaker 1: they basically looked at people who drank versus didn't drink.
Speaker 1: And you know, the people who did drink it was
Speaker 1: quite moderate, maybe a couple of glasses of wine. And
Speaker 1: what they found was that those who drank moderately were
Speaker 1: healthier than those who didn't drink at all. And it
Speaker 1: was this huge vine at the time. But what they
Speaker 1: didn't control for, and anyone studying psychology knows you need
Speaker 1: to control for your confounding extraneous variables. They didn't control
Speaker 1: for the people who were in that sober group who
Speaker 1: had stopped drinking because they had a real problem and
Speaker 1: it had begun to impact their health. Now, it's kind
Speaker 1: of hard these days to find someone who is completely sober,
Speaker 1: and one of the reasons that someone might be completely
Speaker 1: sober is because they can't drink.
Speaker 2: So all of those people.
Speaker 1: Who were included in the no drinking group, it wasn't
Speaker 1: like they'd never drunk before in their life. It was
Speaker 1: actually the opposite. They had a problem, and so they
Speaker 1: were basically pulling down the group average of non drinkers
Speaker 1: compared to casual drinkers, so it looked like the casual
Speaker 1: drinkers were healthier. That is a classic example in psychology
Speaker 1: research of poor sampling methods, not controlling for your extraneous
Speaker 1: or confounding variables, and knowing that now you know, there's
Speaker 1: been so many more studies come out saying, actually, this
Speaker 1: is not good for your heart, this is not good
Speaker 1: for your liver, this causes cancer. There are entire countries
Speaker 1: that have changed their dietary recommendations when it comes to alcohol,
Speaker 1: saying it is not safe for you to drink it all.
Speaker 1: It will increase your likelihood of dying, maybe only by
Speaker 1: a tiny, tiny, tiny tiny bit, but still Actually, interestingly,
Speaker 1: as I'm recording this, it actually looks like the US
Speaker 1: will be the next country to make a recommendation that
Speaker 1: people shouldn't drink. Obviously, it's very harsh recommendation, but they
Speaker 1: want to do what's safe. All of this sounds very,
Speaker 1: very scary, but something to note that I found really fascinating.
Speaker 1: Even the man who discovered the problem in those findings
Speaker 1: who said, you know, to everyone, for you, his alcohol
Speaker 1: isn't safe, we shouldn't tell people that he actually get this.
Speaker 1: He still drinks and he is very open about the
Speaker 1: fact that he loves a couple glasses of wine, and
Speaker 1: I think that is the important thing. Moderation is important.
Speaker 1: And it remind finds me of that quote, which basically says, like,
Speaker 1: you know, yes, son gives you cancer. Ice cream is
Speaker 1: bad for you, Spending your money ruins your savings. Wine
Speaker 1: isn't the healthiest. It ruins your liver. But I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do it anyway, I want to have fun. It's a
Speaker 1: good good philosophy.
Speaker 2: To have that.
Speaker 1: Yes, anything can kill you, everything can be bad for you.
Speaker 1: How terrible is that? But actually it's not, because life
Speaker 1: is actually about sometimes indulging and having fun and enjoying
Speaker 1: flavor and enjoying richness. And I think that if you
Speaker 1: don't have a serious problem with alcohol abuse, maybe and
Speaker 1: definitely why not enjoy what you enjoy. Enjoy the feeling,
Speaker 1: the sensation, the friendships that you might feel like you
Speaker 1: get from a glass of wine or a little apperol
Speaker 1: sprits every now and again. Okay, we're going to take
Speaker 1: a short break, but when we come back, I want
Speaker 1: to talk about how sobriety impacted my social life, what
Speaker 1: it was like to go out sober, and just like
Speaker 1: some fast rapid fire tips I have if you want
Speaker 1: to give it a go, I think a big fear
Speaker 1: we have around trying dry jam, dry July, whatever it is,
Speaker 1: going sober for a couple of months is social exclusion?
Speaker 1: Am I going to be included? Are people gonna think
Speaker 1: that I'm like a wet blanket, that I'm not fun?
Speaker 1: Am I gonna be left out? Is it gonna be
Speaker 1: less enjoyable to be the only sober one. That was
Speaker 1: definitely a fear that I had in like just doing
Speaker 1: thirty days of this, especially like it's summer in Australia,
Speaker 1: like everyone wants to do a little vo beverages, so
Speaker 1: like it definitely felt like I was gonna be missing out.
Speaker 1: But something that I've really noticed is that my friends
Speaker 1: are very very accepting. Now, if you have a friend
Speaker 1: group that is pressuring you to drink, I don't think
Speaker 1: those people are your friends. They're not your friends because
Speaker 1: if they only feel like they can enjoy your company
Speaker 1: with a glass or something, you know, a can of
Speaker 1: something in their hand, like that's not off. Like I
Speaker 1: don't know, I just feel like your relationships shouldn't be
Speaker 1: elevated by drinking. They should be just as good when
Speaker 1: you're sober as they are when you're tipsy, as they
Speaker 1: are when you're drunk. And I went out sober the
Speaker 1: other night, like it was a friend's birthday, farty, like
Speaker 1: a really good friend and I went out and I
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I'm committing to this. I'm committing to this.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna drive, I'm gonna drive me and my boyfriend
Speaker 1: We're gonna meet like thirty of our friends and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna like just chill on the diet Kochs for a
Speaker 1: little while. The first hour.
Speaker 2: This is what I learned.
Speaker 1: The first hour was the worst. Just get that out
Speaker 1: of the way. First hour was the worst because everyone
Speaker 1: was kind of like getting into the vibe. Everyone was
Speaker 1: kind of having a few drinks, like lightening up, and
Speaker 1: it was very much like based around, like let's go
Speaker 1: to the bar, like this drink tastes good, We're gonna
Speaker 1: sit and sit. So I was a bit like, I
Speaker 1: just feel like I'm missing out. You guys are all
Speaker 1: like getting more cheerful, more cheerful, and I'm just feeling
Speaker 1: like I'm left.
Speaker 2: Out here myr own of course, with my own actions.
Speaker 1: But then after the first hour was done, it was
Speaker 1: so much fun. It was so much fun because I
Speaker 1: was more present, because I wasn't sleepy, because I didn't
Speaker 1: just sit in a corner and just chat to one person.
Speaker 1: I was more like aware of who I wanted to
Speaker 1: speak to, what I wanted to get out of the night.
Speaker 1: I was able to like, I know this sounds weird,
Speaker 1: but actually have some foresight to like organize things do
Speaker 1: things like there was karaoke in the back of this bar,
Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, like I'll take the initiative
Speaker 1: and I'll book this because everyone else has kind of
Speaker 1: like had a few drinks and is probably not thinking
Speaker 1: about whether that's possible. Also, really really fun was driving
Speaker 1: everyone home afterwards. Let me tell you this, I had
Speaker 1: more fun being the designated driver and getting to drop
Speaker 1: all of my drunk friends home than I have ever
Speaker 1: had in a club. And I know that is a
Speaker 1: huge statement, but it is a correct one. It is
Speaker 1: an accurate one. I could not tell you the last
Speaker 1: time I went clubbing and had a good time, Like
Speaker 1: it's just not something that I think I like to do. Obviously,
Speaker 1: when I was I actually probably could tell you, Like
Speaker 1: when I was in my early twenties and like in
Speaker 1: my teen years, it was like a great time. It
Speaker 1: was part of like socializing at UNI. But since I've
Speaker 1: kind of hit my mid twenties, like it's just not
Speaker 1: my thing anymore. And I would always try and force
Speaker 1: myself to really enjoy it and get something out of
Speaker 1: it and make memories. That's the big reason why I
Speaker 1: would go was for the memories. I made more fun
Speaker 1: memories driving my friends home and going to McDonald's, and
Speaker 1: they said the funniest stuff and it was like I
Speaker 1: can remember the in jokes, I can remember what they
Speaker 1: were saying, like the stories that were told. And then
Speaker 1: the next morning, I was up by eight am. Like
Speaker 1: obviously it was still a Sunday, I still had my
Speaker 1: sleep in, but I was up by eight am. I
Speaker 1: was refreshed, I felt amazing. I went for a five
Speaker 1: k run and I just thought, wow, like I would
Speaker 1: not have this energy if I had had four Gin
Speaker 1: and Tonics last night, and I would have missed out
Speaker 1: so much. And I also didn't get tired, so I
Speaker 1: was able to stay out longer, which is a big
Speaker 1: problem I sometimes have when I drink and go out,
Speaker 1: like I have two red wines and I'm like, I
Speaker 1: want to go to bed. But I really committed to
Speaker 1: it and it was a great time. Some tips I
Speaker 1: have for staying sober or trying out sobriety, and I
Speaker 1: really would encourage you to just do thirty days. Have
Speaker 1: like a non alcoholic drink that you like, soak and
Speaker 1: Butcher Die Cooke lemonade, non alcoholic beer. A big fan
Speaker 1: of non alcoholic beer, not so much non alcoholic red wine.
Speaker 2: That stuff is discussing.
Speaker 1: Have your drink that you enjoy that you can bring
Speaker 1: to the party, you can order at the pub, you
Speaker 1: can order at the bar. Like that really helps you
Speaker 1: feel like you're still integrated into the experience. Tell your
Speaker 1: friends that you are sober, and like open up a
Speaker 1: discussion about it, so it's not like expected that you're
Speaker 1: going to be drinking, and they can actually think through
Speaker 1: their own drinking choices, and you can change plans based
Speaker 1: on your choice for the evening. See if someone wants
Speaker 1: to do it with you honestly, like one of my
Speaker 1: friends is doing it at the same time. It's like
Speaker 1: kind of fun to exchange stories and just kind of
Speaker 1: have a bigger goal attached to why you want to
Speaker 1: do it. So if you're just like I want to
Speaker 1: go sober for thirty days, but you don't know why,
Speaker 1: it's going to be a lot harder to achieve. So
Speaker 1: mine was really like, this is a personal challenge. I
Speaker 1: want to see if I'm capable. For other people, it's
Speaker 1: like they're training for a marathon and they're training for
Speaker 1: a big run. Maybe it's that you want to see
Speaker 1: your skin improve. Whatever it is make sure that the
Speaker 1: reason you're doing this is really really clear to you,
Speaker 1: and honestly, good luck. If you have done it before. Please, Oh,
Speaker 1: if you are someone who is currently sober and husband
Speaker 1: for a while, what can we expect in a couple
Speaker 1: of years? What can we expect in like six months,
Speaker 1: two years, five years? Like I've heard that it gets
Speaker 1: better and it changes, and that you feel even more
Speaker 1: energy and more attuned to yourself after a while. And
Speaker 1: also send over your best tips and I'll share them
Speaker 1: on Instagram. But I think that's all we have for
Speaker 1: today's episode. I know what's been a long one. So
Speaker 1: if you've made it this far, hello, comment a little
Speaker 1: wine emoji in the comments on Spotify and I'll go
Speaker 1: through and see who's gotten here. But thank you so
Speaker 1: much for listening. Make sure that, if you haven't already,
Speaker 1: you listen to Mantra. If you like the psychology of
Speaker 1: your twenties and you like the kind of positive, calm
Speaker 1: environment we're creating here, you want some inspiration, Mantra is
Speaker 1: probably going to.
Speaker 2: Be exactly what you're looking for.
Speaker 1: So you can find it on Spotify, Apple Podcasts just
Speaker 1: by searching Mantra with Jemma speG Also, we are open
Speaker 1: to episode suggestions for this podcast at the moment. If
Speaker 1: there is something about your twenties you want me to
Speaker 1: explore the psychology.
Speaker 2: Behind, send it through. I would love to hear from you.
Speaker 1: Make sure you are following along, make sure that you
Speaker 1: have left a five star review please and thank you
Speaker 1: if you feel cold to do so. And until next time,
Speaker 1: stay safe, stay kind, be gentle with yourself, and we
Speaker 1: will talk very very soon.