1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:03,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're getting 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: through another week of crazy headlines like top health official 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: leading response to hauntavirus is a penile implant specialist. By 4 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: hanging onto the promise of Brandy Carlisle dropping new music 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: this Friday. It's Tuesday, May nineteenth, and on today's show, 6 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: PhD candidate Zoe Zannis joins us to discuss their recent 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: article on ESPN's coverage of the twenty twenty four WNBA 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: playoffs and how the network's interplay with social media content 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: exacerbated existing stereotypes and tropes for female athletes. We also 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: talk about how to separate entertainment and journalism and why 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: trolls aren't the ones creating the narrative. Plus forty in 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: counting a Super Sweet sixteen and stopping the skin It's 13 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: all coming up right after this welcome back slices. Here's 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: what you need to know today. Let's start with hoops. 15 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: WNBA expansion team, the Toronto Tempo hit the sentry mark 16 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: for the first time on Sunday night, beating the La 17 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: Sparks one oh six ninety six. Tempo guard Brittany slim 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: Sykes scored a career high thirty eight points in as 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: many minutes, and rookie Keeky Rice set a career high 20 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: with nineteen points. Canada's team will now travel to Phoenix 21 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: to take on the Mercury for the very first time tonight, 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: tip off at ten pm Eastern. Also on Sunday, the 23 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: Indiana Fever topped the Seattle Storm eighty nine seventy eight 24 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: behind twenty one points, tennisis and seven rebounds from Caitlin Clark. 25 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: That makes back to back games for Clark with twenty 26 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: points and tennisis. With that pair of games, she's now 27 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: got a record twelve twenty ten games in just fifty 28 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: seven contest in her WNBA career. She passed Courtney Vanderslute, 29 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: who has ten such outings. Also on Sunday, the Chicago 30 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: Sky beat the Minnesota Links eighty six seventy nine behind 31 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: Sky rookie Gabriella hakez Is twenty points and eight rebounds. 32 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: But the game might have cost the Sky forward Rikia Jackson, 33 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: who went down in the first half while driving to 34 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: the basket, awkwardly twisting her left leg. She was helped 35 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: off the court and led to the locker room and 36 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: was soon ruled out for the rest of the game. 37 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: Coach Tyler Marsh said after the game that Jackson would 38 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: probably have imaging on the knee, but didn't have any 39 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: further update, and we haven't gotten an update either as 40 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: of Monday afternoon, but we'll let you know the latest 41 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: on Jackson's injury when we get it. After the game, 42 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: Jackson's teammate Natasha Cloud took aim at the referees in 43 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: her press conference. Take a listen. 44 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: Their ultimate job is to control and protect the players 45 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,519 Speaker 2: in this game, and I think that this group today 46 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: failed to do so. They failed to protect Rakia, They 47 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: failed to control the game. And immediately right before that, 48 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: I got popped in the face on the way, didn't 49 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: get a call. That's cool. I go up to them, 50 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 2: I say, the game is getting a little out of control. 51 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: You need to control it. 52 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: And the next possession, we have hands all over Kia, 53 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 2: pushing her back, and you know, we don't know what's 54 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: going on. But truthfully, I think it's bullshit. I will 55 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: be damned if a player gets hurt on our team. 56 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: That was something that was controllable by the referees. 57 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: The early part of this w season has involved a 58 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: lot of cosation about the officiating picking right up where 59 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: the end of last season left off. Cloud is one 60 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: of many calling for the game to be less physical 61 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: and more controlled, and many players are asking for more 62 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: consistency so they better know what they can and can't 63 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: do to soccer. On Sunday, the Portland Thorns and Angel 64 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: CITYFC played to a scoreless draw, a disappointing result for 65 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: Portland second in the NWSL table, so they'd like a 66 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 1: better showing against the twelfth seeded ACFC, But for Angel 67 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: City it's a step in the right direction. After winning 68 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: their first three games of the season, LA went on 69 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: a four game losing streak, so this draw ends the skid. 70 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: Also on Sunday, the Utah Royals extended their wind streak 71 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,839 Speaker 1: to eight straight games, beating Racing Louisville two to one 72 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: thanks to a game winning Mina Tanaka goal in the 73 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: seventy sixth minute. The win moves the Royals into a 74 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: tie for second in the league alongside the Portland Thorns, 75 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: just one point behind the San Diego Wave. No soccer tonight, 76 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: but the action starts again on Wednesday. The Wave will 77 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: play the Houston Dash at eight pm Eastern The Thorns 78 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: will take on BAFC at ten pm Eastern, and Angel 79 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: City will face the Casey Current also at ten pm Eastern. 80 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: To college softball, where the Super Regionals are set. The 81 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: field of sixteen includes all four number one seeds Alabama, Nebraska, Oklahoma, 82 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: and Texas and all four number two seats Florida, Tennessee, Arkansas, 83 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: and UCLA. Meantime, number six UCF the University of Central Florida, 84 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: is the lowest seed to advance. They knocked out number 85 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: three Florida State in the Tallahassee Regional. Number three Texas 86 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: Tech is also super Regional bound. In yesterday's show, we 87 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: told you about their historic comeback win over Ole Miss 88 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: on Saturday, and the Red Raiders sealed the deal with 89 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: another win over Ole Miss on Sunday, this one of 90 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: fourteen to six run rule blowout. We'll link to the 91 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: updated college softball bracket and schedule in the show notes. 92 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: The Superregionals get underweund Thursday, with the sixteen teams competing 93 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: for eight berths into the College World Series later this month. 94 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: More college softball. Also this weekend, UCLA's Megan Grant extended 95 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: her own home run record, recording her thirty ninth of 96 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: season during a seven to two win over South Carolina 97 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: on Saturday, and her fortieth of the season in a 98 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: fifteen to one run rule victory over South Carolina on Sunday. 99 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: With USLE advancing to the Super Regionals, the two sport 100 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: phenom Grant will look to continue adding to that record 101 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,799 Speaker 1: number to hockey. We're recording this before Monday Night's potential 102 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: Cup clinching Game three between the Montreal Victoire and the 103 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: Ottawa Charge. Either the Victoire won and took the crown 104 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: or the Charge said not so fast and forced to 105 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: Game four. Either way, we'll talk about it all on 106 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: tomorrow's show. To the Women's Lacrosse League aka WL, where 107 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: the inaugural season got underway over the weekend with a 108 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: game between the New York Charging and the Boston Guard. 109 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: Friend of the show, Charlotte North made history by scoring 110 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: the first ever goal in the league, a righty sweep 111 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: halfway through the first quarter. New York ended up with 112 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 1: the w beating Boston seventeen twelve. The WLL season runs 113 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: until mid August, but the next game is an until 114 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: May twenty eighth, when California Palms played the Maryland charm 115 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: to tennis. The Italian Open came to an end over 116 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: the weekend, with American Cocoa Golf falling to Ukrainian Elinas 117 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: Vitalina for the third straight time this season. Svitealina's win 118 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: marked a second consecutive tournament title for women from Ukraine 119 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: at the WTA one thousand level. That's the rung below 120 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: the Grand Slams. You remember Marta Kostchuk won the Madrid 121 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: Open earlier this month. Now, the world's top tennis stars 122 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: take the short trip from Italy to France, where the 123 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: opening week of the French Open is underway. Madison Keys 124 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: is getting off to a rough start. Unfortunately, the US 125 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: pro withdrew from a warm up tournament on Monday due 126 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: to an injury to her left eye. Now playing at 127 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: Roland Garros is still on the table for her. She'll 128 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: spend the next couple days resting before the tournament's main 129 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: draw begins on Sunday. To college tennis, Texas, A and 130 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: M defeated Auburn to win the NCAA Division One Women's 131 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: tennis team championships. On Sunday, the Aggies topped the Tigers 132 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: four to one to win the program's second national title 133 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: in the last three years. Despite losing in the finals, 134 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: it was still a strong season for Auburn. They made 135 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: their first national championship appearance and also won the SEC 136 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: regular season title and SEC Championship for the first time 137 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: in program history. All right, Slice's We're going to get 138 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: to our interview with researcher Zoe's Annis in just a minute, 139 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: but I wanted to shout out how we heard about 140 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: their research. So friend of the show Frankie de la 141 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: Cretas cited Zoe's work in an article for Extra magazine, 142 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: and then Frankie interviewed Zoe for an article on their 143 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: own site, catching our eye and making us want to 144 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: learn more. So we'll link to both of those Frankie 145 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: articles in the show notes. Also wanted to share a 146 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: quick disclaimer that I do still work for ESPN part time, 147 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: including as you might remember as host of the espnW Summit, 148 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: but as you'll hear in the upcoming conversation, I don't 149 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: shy away from acknowledging the ways the network, me included, 150 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: needs to grow. We're going to take a break when 151 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: we come back our conversation with Zoe's Annis joining us 152 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: now they are a University of Texas at Austin grad 153 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: with dual degrees in journalism and government, and PhD student 154 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: in communication at University of Pittsburgh. Their research uses sports 155 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: as a vantage point to explore how identity and culture 156 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: are constructed and negotiated. A high school swimmer, softball and 157 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: soccer player while also serving as editor of the newspaper, 158 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: they've personally lived their study of sport and media intersecting. 159 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: They're a Capricorn, a diehard liberty fan, and a perfector 160 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: of the hookham Horns pose for photos. It's Zoe Zanas Hi, Zoe, Hi. 161 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me and for learning 162 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 3: all of that about my background. I've impressed well. 163 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: I feel like you're required for life to do the 164 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: hook them in photos anytime you're associated with or in Texas, 165 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: and I appreciate that. I'm actually kind of jealous. I 166 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: think it's very cool. We are on not to talk 167 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: about the Longhorns, but instead to talk about your new 168 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: article called Coframing the twenty twenty four WNBA playoffs ESPN's 169 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: deferential approach to selling massogyre, in which you argue that 170 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: ESPN's coverage of racial tension during the twenty twenty four 171 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: WNBA season turned racism into spectacle marketed moral outrages, entertainment, 172 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: and deferred respect ability to external scapegoats. Very academic sounding. 173 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: We're going to dive into it in more detail, but 174 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: just to start to give people a little taste, like 175 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: what are some of the top level takeaways from the research. 176 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 3: This study examines ESPN's coverage of the twenty twenty four 177 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 3: WA playoffs specifically, but the top takeaways are that ESPN 178 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 3: invoked two external figures as co authors and proponents of 179 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 3: their own coverage, the first being the troll or trolls, 180 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 3: and the second being the actual audience. So they blamed 181 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 3: racial harassment and sensationalism of racism on sort of just 182 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 3: this evil troll figure who could not be controlled and 183 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 3: framed the narrative, and they also blamed audiences for their 184 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 3: supposed historic human interest in racism and rivalry. The problem 185 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 3: here isn't that ESPN covered racism because they need to 186 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 3: do that. The problem is that they played into sensational 187 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 3: tropes and deferred responsibility for doing so on other people. 188 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 3: The third finding that comes out of this work is 189 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 3: generally that the coverage treated the WNBA as a league 190 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 3: as something in need of protection, unlike the NBA, because 191 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 3: it's athletes are not just women, but primarily Black women, who, 192 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 3: in their words, don't have the power to withstand criticism 193 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 3: or tell their own story. And that's not me saying that, 194 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 3: that's me sort of explaining what analysts like Stephen A. 195 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: Smith say when they do things like, and I'm going 196 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 3: to quote for my article. They say things like, the 197 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 3: fellas have been going through this forever, but there used 198 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 3: to be a code you don't do that to ladies. 199 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 3: But on social media there is no line of decency. 200 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 3: There is no such thing as you don't mess with 201 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 3: women and children. 202 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: Okay, so multipart there and just to remind folks, and 203 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: we'll get into the details a little bit more later. 204 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: But this twenty twenty four season started with the Kaitlin 205 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 1: Clark versus Angel Rees' rivalry that carried over from the 206 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: NCAA tournament and then became a larger sort of narrative 207 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: of Kaitlin Clark versus black players and the idea of 208 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: the white savior versus the black tradition of the WNBA. 209 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: So all of that is sort of what's at stake here, 210 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: And I remember, even on our show, the difficulty of saying, 211 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: how do we discuss this thing that feels like it's 212 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: a big talking point for the season without it drowning 213 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: out the actual basketball and the players and the stories 214 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: that we want to cover in the league. And is 215 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: it ignoring it in a way that is pretending it 216 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: doesn't exist to not talk about it? But how do 217 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: you talk about it without platforming and spotlighting the worst 218 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: among us? Right? So, this is sort of what's at 219 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: the crux of this conversation, and I want to zoom 220 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: out before we get back into the specifics, because the 221 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: timeline and focus of your research was pretty specific. It 222 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: was a month or so during ESPN's WNBA playoff coverage 223 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four. But the conversation is a much 224 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 1: bigger one, involving dozens of media outlets and a very 225 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: rapidly changing media landscape. I want to start there because 226 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: the intersection of social media and traditional media has sort 227 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: of allowed for some of the negative outcomes you discussed 228 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: in your article. I wonder if seeing it writ large 229 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: in many spaces is what made you want to dive 230 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: into this specific research. Was how you're seeing it elsewhere 231 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: as well. 232 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 3: Definitely, in the beginning of social media, there were these 233 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 3: large tropes about how social media would democratize the media ecosystem. So, 234 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 3: you know, social media users could go online and tell 235 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 3: their stories and that would sort of play against you know, 236 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 3: traditional journalists, media people and share these stories that we 237 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 3: don't get to hear in the mainstream media. And in 238 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 3: some ways that's correct. We have you know, YouTubers, podcasters, 239 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 3: everything getting into different spaces and bringing different stories to light. 240 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 3: At the same time, there's this really interesting relationship that 241 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 3: happens between social media users, platform users, and these mainstream 242 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 3: media institutions. In order to keep up with the pace 243 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 3: of all of these things, the traditional media, the mainstream media, 244 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 3: institutional media like ESPN, they will pick up what's happening 245 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 3: on social media, bring it into the nightly news, what's 246 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 3: going on, et cetera, and make it a big topic. 247 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 3: So there's this ongoing dialogue that happens in all sorts 248 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 3: of places. It happens a lot in trolling studies with 249 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 3: how things are happening in different spaces that get pulled 250 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 3: into into mainstream news. But it happened here and fan 251 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 3: I went from a fan to a scholar in that 252 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 3: you know, I was watching the playoffs because I like 253 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 3: basketball and I like the WNBA, and consistently listening to 254 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 3: the commentary, hearing not just analysts, but like even people 255 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 3: like Stephanie White, who who also works in the media 256 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 3: but like as a coach, say things like the trolls 257 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 3: are framing the narrative, and hearing this sort of sustained 258 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 3: acknowledgment of that social media was coming in and sort 259 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 3: of setting the agenda, which is something we in media studies, 260 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 3: but like most people would understand as something that we 261 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 3: think the mainstream media does. 262 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: I find what you just said so interesting because I 263 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: have talked about the positives in some ways of social 264 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 1: media removing gatekeepers and thereby allowing people other than middle 265 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: aged white men to tell you what you were interested in, 266 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: which is how traditional institutional media has gone. Right. The editor, 267 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: the program director, whoever it is at the top, says, 268 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: here's what everyone should care about, and this is what 269 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: we're going to put on the docket. And in a 270 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: lot of ways, social media allowed content creators to write 271 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: about things like the WNBA that wasn't getting enough coverage 272 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: and say, actually, over here, look over here. Tons of 273 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: people went over there, and then the institutional media had 274 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that there was an interest in start adding 275 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: more coverage. So there are positives there. But to your point, 276 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: there's this idea of sort of blaming quote unquote social media, 277 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: even though the institutional media is the one still hand 278 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: selecting which outlets, which people, which posts to spotlight. So 279 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: start with the concept of co authoring in terms of 280 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: these concepts that you bring into your work. You write 281 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: about how sports broadcasters sort of enlist the engaged audience 282 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: of a sport or a team as co authors of meaning. 283 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: So can you expand on what that means co authoring meaning? 284 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: So I talk about this as co authoring, but also 285 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 3: as co framing, And so in terms of like the 286 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 3: typical traditional what is framing. Framing is how media presents 287 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 3: something to its audience and that influences the choices we 288 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 3: make and how we process the information. It's like a 289 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 3: picture frame. The media chooses to put some things in 290 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 3: the frame and not with others, and when they do 291 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 3: this repeatedly, we come to understand certain things through what 292 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 3: we've been told they're associated with, Like the one of 293 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 3: a typical example that we here in journalism school I 294 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 3: went to journalism school, is that often we think of 295 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 3: protests through their association with violence, because that's what the 296 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 3: media focuses on when it reports about protests. But for 297 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 3: the most part, protests are rarely island. So we have 298 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 3: to remember, even in an age in which social media 299 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: is really powerful, there is still this long standing power 300 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 3: that the institutional traditional media has over us in the 301 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 3: way we understand the world. When I'm talking about coframing 302 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 3: and what I say that ESPN did here, what I 303 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 3: mean is that the analysts and the commentators acknowledged and 304 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 3: obscured their power as the author and of the framer 305 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 3: by positioning the audience and when I say the audience, 306 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 3: I mean the trolls and the fans as co authors 307 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 3: of public narratives, essentially giving into this idea that social 308 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 3: media can be more powerful than traditional media and saying, yes, 309 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 3: that's true, and that's why we can cover this because 310 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 3: you told us to. We're just a facilitator. We're an 311 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 3: unbiased layer that gets coverage through you from what you 312 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 3: ask for to what you want. And so what's really 313 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 3: big here is sort of deferential position where they say 314 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 3: we're a neutral conduit, and we're responding to already existing 315 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 3: discourse and not acknowledging the power that ESPN and other 316 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 3: institutional media has to choose what to say and to 317 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 3: seminate it to millions of people. 318 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very common practice now using social media comments 319 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: to tee up a conversation between analysts. Oh, here's this post, 320 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: what do you guys think to allegedly represent the views 321 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: of various stakeholders or fans. But again, you're still selecting 322 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: very specific ones to represent the quote unquote monolithic views 323 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: or just as an opportunity to sort of serve up 324 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: the most salacious or enraging hot takes about a topic 325 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: without the media member or the outlet having to own 326 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: that take themselves. Right, we want to talk about this, 327 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: and or we want to just show it because we 328 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: know people will watch and get mad about it. But 329 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: that way we can be a hands off in terms 330 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 1: of representing it as our idea or something that we 331 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: think should be part of this conversation. You call this 332 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: practice co framing, and you talk about how basically you 333 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: can benefit from the attention to things like a racial 334 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: controversy without having to take responsibility for whether or not 335 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: you should be spotlighting it. And I wonder how we 336 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: ask sports broadcasts sports broadcast companies to reject the model 337 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: that's proved most efficient and most effective, because this whole 338 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: spotlight is very valuable. As we more and more both 339 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: on social media and regular media, understand the enraged to 340 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: engage model, people consciously or subconsciously are drawn to context 341 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: that is complicated, that ask tough questions, that touches on 342 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: highly politicized issues, and then they watch longer or they 343 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: comment more, and it's like the first takeification of everything. 344 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: Embrace debate regardless of whether the topic is a debatable 345 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 1: topic or should be debated. So how do we separate 346 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: entertainment from journalism and apply the riggers of the latter 347 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: to sort of the financial realities of the former in 348 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: expecting these companies to ignore this is what works. 349 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a fantastic question which I probably don't have 350 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 3: the right answer to just yet. What what I would say, 351 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 3: and this is always like the messy academic answer is 352 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 3: that you have to sort of look at the nuance 353 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 3: and the fuzzy boundaries between things in all honesty, like 354 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 3: ESPN is an entertainment company, and when when they report 355 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 3: about the w n b A or any sport there 356 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 3: there is so much that goes into making an unadulterated 357 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 3: game into an entertainment product. We have to be cognizant 358 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 3: that they make decisions based on, you know, not only 359 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 3: being an entertainment company, but being a for profit company 360 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 3: like they're they're they're there to make money, and it 361 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 3: is incredibly difficult for not only sports people but everybody 362 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 3: not to fall into this you know, salacious circulation model 363 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 3: where we try and get the algorithms to pick up 364 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 3: on what we're doing by feeding it the most insane 365 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 3: content because we don't know everything about how algorithms are designed, 366 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 3: but we know that we know that if we post 367 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 3: something crazy or something that involves violence, or that involves politics, 368 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 3: it's just gonna be bigger. And so to ask ESPN 369 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 3: to not follow profit is an impossible ask. I think 370 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 3: that there are some things that journalists could do to 371 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 3: improve the coverage, and I think the first thing would 372 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 3: be is just, first of all, don't say that the 373 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 3: audience is creating the narrative or that trolls are framing 374 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 3: the narrative. Trolls especially, I have problems with because troll 375 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 3: is a big bogey man word for nothing, like, it 376 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 3: doesn't mean anything. It could refer to anyone. We have 377 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 3: no idea what's behind it. That's just like a. 378 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 1: Fake excuse sometimes people, sometimes spots, sometimes just a word 379 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: we use if someone disagrees with us. Right, don't use. 380 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 3: The troll as a cop out. But also like acknowledge 381 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 3: that you have a powerful position as a journalist who 382 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 3: works for ESPN. 383 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know. ESPN is long wrestled with trying 384 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: to be both journalistically sound in a lot of its 385 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: output and also an entertainment company that absconds the responsibility 386 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: of journalism in certain spaces. Right, So you can watch 387 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: an outside the lines piece about ct in the NFL 388 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: and also understand that the NFL is a partner of 389 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: ESPN and that so much of their production will skew 390 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: away from acknowledging the realities of head traumas. So this 391 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: balance has been in play for a very long time. 392 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: But this specific example you refer to was fascinating because 393 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: it was this moment where the WNBA broke through into 394 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: spaces that were not covering it before. So it was 395 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: not just a conversation about how it was being handled 396 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: and covered in a way that felt maybe icky or wrong. 397 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: But also, but wait, do we need to still be 398 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: grateful for it because this is the reason that it's 399 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: in spaces that previously had ignored it. So you talk 400 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 1: about the concept also of networked misogyny, So harassment that's 401 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: distributed across platforms, amplified by visibility, and embedded in broader 402 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: cultural economity of attention. So even if an outlet or 403 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: an analyst is rejecting misogyny in public spaces or broadly 404 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: condemning any sort of racism or bigotry in a social post, 405 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: they're still amplifying that take. So where's the line between 406 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: acknowledging and discussing what's being said online or even a 407 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: reality that's in real life and not just online, versus 408 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: platforming or spotlighting it in a problematic way. 409 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 3: It's almost impossible to pick up a story and to 410 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 3: not amplify it. So I think that the first thing 411 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 3: is you have to acknowledge that, like, if you are 412 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 3: picking up the topic, you're amplifying it. The next thing 413 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 3: you have to do is your research, and you got 414 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 3: to make sure that what you're talking about and who 415 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 3: you're talking about is real, and then you have to 416 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 3: use journalistic ethics to report this stuff. You have to 417 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 3: talk to moremultiple people, you have to show some sense 418 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 3: of different perspectives, and you have to check your facts 419 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 3: and try and report it truthfully, and you check back 420 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 3: if some things are manufactured by bots, by trolls, by anyone. 421 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 3: And in the case that you genuinely don't know, instead 422 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 3: of saying something falsely, say we genuinely don't know, right. 423 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: And also I think be thoughtful about what you are 424 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 1: amplifying as what people quote unquote are saying. Some people 425 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: are saying, and it's like you found one tweet that 426 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: was the most egregious, and you know that that one's 427 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: going to fire people up, so you choose it and 428 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: act like it's a representation of what the broader space 429 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: is saying, even if just one person said that completely 430 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: offensive thing. And I think that it's very easy to 431 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: do that, but you're misrepresenting both what the larger conversation 432 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: is and you're also choosing that to get your clicks 433 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: and get your attention, even if it might be more 434 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 1: damaging for you to highlight that and take it out 435 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: of the fringes than if you were to just leave 436 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: it there and it would never get the attention that 437 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: you just gave it. Okay, I want to skip a 438 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: couple of other concepts that hopefully we'll get back to because 439 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: think they're fascinating. So we can get to the specifics 440 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: of what you studied. Because you looked at the twenty 441 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: twenty four WNBA season, specifically the playoffs leading up to 442 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: the finals, so September twenty second to October sixth of 443 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. We remember again that this was Caitlin 444 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: Clark versus black players, and whether they were being particularly 445 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: physical or aggressive toward her, and whether they were jealous 446 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: of her because of the attention she brought in. And 447 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: you used a method of reading sport critically, like treating 448 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: sports media as quote unquote cultural texts. So can you 449 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: talk about that lens that you viewed the coverage through. 450 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 3: Essentially, from this perspective, you sort of take an event 451 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 3: and even a person as something that's sort of co 452 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 3: constructed by the multiple journalists, by the multiple stories about 453 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 3: that given thing. We can read who Kaitlyn Clark is 454 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 3: as a figure by looking at all of the journalistic 455 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 3: pieces that are put out about her and what we 456 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 3: can do there is we can sort of assume how 457 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 3: does culture take this figure? You know, that's not who 458 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 3: Caitlyn Clark is. We'd have to have a conversation with 459 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 3: her for that. But we can look at the playoffs, 460 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 3: watch everything. A lot of fans do this, Read everything, 461 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 3: look at all the comments, and assume that that is 462 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 3: like this greater scape that paints a picture of how 463 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 3: culture takes and approaches this event or series of events. Cool. 464 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 3: So that's the lens. 465 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. Okay, So you're looking at specifically 466 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: the playoffs, and then there's this sort of moment where 467 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: the Caitlyn Clark tension around race came to a head. 468 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: It was an incident between the Connecticut Suns dj A 469 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: Carrington and Clark in the first round of the playoffs. 470 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: Carrington swipes for the ball accidentally pokes Clark in the eye. 471 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: I say accidentally because that's what she said, and that's 472 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: what anyone who watches basketball says. But some social media 473 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: users and even some very well known journalists and commentators 474 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: framed the poke as an assault, said it was intentional, 475 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: said it was part of larger claims that black players 476 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: were targeting Clark. So what did you see that was 477 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: noteworthy in the coverage of this incident on ESPN and 478 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: the narrative that it sort of spawned for the rest 479 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: of the playoffs. 480 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 3: A lot of what we would more think of as 481 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 3: being maybe like a right wing media really went in 482 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 3: on sort of horrible racist and sexist and misogynistic tropes 483 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 3: that talked about Harrington's nails and her behavior and her 484 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 3: being aggressive. All of those are sort of these traditional 485 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 3: tropes that we think about when media falsely talks about 486 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 3: black women athletes. And what ESPN did, which I thought 487 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 3: was really interesting, is instead of doing that, they talked 488 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,959 Speaker 3: about trolls, they focused on sort of the social media 489 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 3: escape and the social media outrage that surrounded the events. 490 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 3: So there was this really disgusting meme thing that someone 491 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 3: posted which transposed Caitlin Clark and and Dejene Carrington's faces 492 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 3: on the faces of George Floyd and the man who 493 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 3: murdered him. And this got a little bit more traction 494 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 3: because I think Carrington responded and said this is awful. 495 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 3: So there were some stories that went out about it, 496 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 3: and WNBA comes out and says, you know, racial harassment, 497 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 3: isn't okay in this league. And YESPN focuses on the 498 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 3: social media and the sort of like the conversation that's 499 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 3: going on rather than the event. In some respects, that's 500 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 3: good because the event was a non event. In some respects, 501 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 3: it allowed them to talk about sensational topics and to 502 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,479 Speaker 3: really focus on racial rivalry in a way where they 503 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 3: were able to blame other people for the coverage. 504 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the blaming of external actors sort of the 505 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: idea that the trolls are forcing us to talk about this, 506 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: or the audience is talking about this, and therefore we 507 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: must make that the top It's difficult because that was 508 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: a big thing going on, and not just on institutional 509 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: media but on social media spaces. Now it's a chicken 510 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: and an egg, right. If institutional media had not elevated 511 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: it over and over again, would it have also died 512 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: down in those other places, or would it at least 513 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: not have been given enough oxygen for the very bad 514 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: actors to be given any sort of place of power 515 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 1: in the discussion. Right, they could have just been racist 516 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: in their own little bubble, as opposed to now being 517 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: introduced as part of a majority or even a large 518 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: minority right, And I think also what you spoke to 519 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: in terms of the tropes, like, in some ways I 520 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: would love for sports broadcasters to be able to give 521 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: a thoughtful and nuanced take about racism, misogyny, and misogyno 522 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: are in coverage over the entirety of the history of 523 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: women's sports, and specific to the WNBA over the last 524 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: thirty years. Maybe that's asking too much, though, So if 525 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: they're not capable of talking about how within the space 526 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: these issues exist as results of trolls bringing them, but 527 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: because they're an internal part of the space itself, then 528 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: how should they discuss the fact that these conversations and 529 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: these tensions exist with the players, Because maybe the media 530 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: can ignore it, but if the players are responding to 531 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: these memes or are aware of the messages they're getting, 532 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: then their responses to questions are often going to invoke 533 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: what they're going through right the outside noise or this 534 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: is my comments or this is what's going on. So 535 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: if the institutional media were to ignore it, it would 536 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: still be present within the tensions of the league in 537 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: between players and teams. 538 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 3: Yes, it totally would. The first step is to acknowledge 539 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 3: that these things are internal, that these things are structural, 540 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 3: that media has a longstanding history of perpetuating these stereotypes. Yes, 541 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 3: you shouldn't need a history degree or a sociology degree 542 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 3: to report on the WNBA or anything else, but you 543 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 3: have to do your research. I think what I take 544 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 3: the largest issue with here is you know the fact 545 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 3: that people and then like Chenegoo, McKay, Kendrick Perkins like 546 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 3: openly would say things like we can't control the trolls, 547 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 3: and then would repeat things that Caitlin Clark said, like 548 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 3: those aren't fans, those are trolls, and talk about the trolls. 549 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 3: There's this technique that's going on there, and I'm like, 550 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 3: I'm not going to say that they're deliberately doing that. 551 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 3: I don't think they are. That says I'm not to 552 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 3: blame for the sensation. Someone else is to blame for 553 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 3: the sensation. And that is the problem, right. 554 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: It's about the accountability and the agency of institutional media 555 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: and what it chooses to talk about and highlight. You 556 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: also talked about how specifically the network's male analysts and 557 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: phantalize the WNB and it's players, describing racial harassment as 558 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: something male players can handle, but women by nature can't 559 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: this sort of protectionist approach which sort of flips some 560 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: of the previous tropes, particular about black women as being 561 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: overly aggressive, and instead makes them too fragile and without 562 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: agency in this space. But you said specifically that that 563 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: was just the male commentators and that perhaps women like Cheney, 564 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: who played in the league and talk about the league 565 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: and are rooted in the women's space have less outdated 566 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: gender ideas when it comes to women athletes and leagues. 567 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: So this is another aspect of your research that you noticed, 568 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: was this idea of instead of acknowledging that these black 569 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: players were victims of the racism and misogyny that's deeply 570 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: rooted within sport and this league, they were instead victims 571 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: of their own fragility in the face of the same 572 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: type of criticism that men would be able to endure. 573 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, And in my research it was like almost 574 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 3: all coming from male analysts, Steven as Smith most of all, 575 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 3: but also Kendrick Perkins, and the sort of repeated recallings 576 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 3: of WNBA athletes as dainty ladies who can't handle who 577 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 3: can't handle racism, who can't handle hard stuff that they 578 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 3: handle in the MMBA and so it's really strange to 579 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 3: hear these sort of really sort of sexist narratives come 580 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,479 Speaker 3: up again. They talked about this in a sort of 581 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 3: like wartime way that these women were under attack, And 582 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 3: it's really strange because it contrasts that sort of traditional 583 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 3: thing that mainstream media does when it casts black women 584 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 3: as aggressive and violent. It sort of flips the script 585 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 3: in a way that is really strange, but does the 586 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 3: same thing, like when you talk about some athletes as 587 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 3: violent and aggressive, you do the same thing as when 588 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 3: you talk about them as weaken and capable, because you 589 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 3: remove them of agency, of power of control over themselves, 590 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 3: which all of these women have. 591 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: So it's it's a. 592 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 3: Really interesting and sort of weird move. But because I 593 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 3: don't see that with women reporters, with non male reporters, 594 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 3: I think there's this great opportunity for those who aren't 595 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 3: entrenched in the male logics of sports media to really 596 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 3: talk about the sport in the way that it should 597 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 3: be talked about, in a way that respects all women 598 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 3: and doesn't make anyone out to be more aggressive or 599 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 3: more weak than they are. 600 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think what was fascinating was that 601 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: it flipped depending on the argument being made as to 602 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: whether or not these black players were overly aggressive and 603 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: physical and nasty and it was an assault. But then 604 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: as soon as they were the ones that were being 605 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: victimized by folks on the internet and people lobbing racial 606 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: attacks at them, then they were infantilized and weak and 607 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: incapable of defending themselves or of being strong enough in 608 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: the face of that. And so it used, both, to 609 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: your point, a way of removing their agency and also 610 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: making the monoliths as always all the same, all with 611 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: the same intent, all a part of some larger agenda 612 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: against Caitlin as opposed to individual actors of their own 613 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: play and behavior. You also argue that by focusing on 614 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: the so called trolls that are displaying racism, folks could 615 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: position harassment as external to the league instead of acknowledging 616 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: sort of this is a condition emerging from its culture, 617 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,240 Speaker 1: and it's important to keep having that conversation right because 618 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 1: it's too easy to push off the realities of structural 619 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: and internalized racism on too amorphous trolls, a body of 620 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 1: people or bots or things that are to blame for 621 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: the ills of society, and we can chalk it up. 622 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: And we've even had conversations about Indiana fans in particular 623 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 1: being more hostile to players that have come into their stadium, 624 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,720 Speaker 1: and the answer is always, those are just some trolls 625 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: where people say that, but it's not true. How do 626 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: you then, when you're trying to talk about these things 627 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: and the reality of them, particularly when players are saying, 628 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: when we go here, it feels worse, This atmosphere is worse. 629 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: How do you talk about it in a way that 630 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: you think does right by the historical context of the league, 631 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: the internalized misogyny and racism of the league, without putting 632 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,399 Speaker 1: responsibility on everyone else, without making it feel like they're 633 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: doing this. 634 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 3: Coframing drolling practices draw on and intensify colonist, masculinist, white 635 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 3: supremacist logics that are already normalized within mainstream media and 636 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 3: political discourse. I see them not as external pollutants of 637 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 3: a neutral media ecosystem, but symptoms of it, and actors 638 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 3: whose practices are entangled with platform logics, journalistic routines, and 639 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 3: they're oriented towards sensation, circulation and profit, And so I 640 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 3: think in order to address the troll the first thing 641 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 3: is not to treat them or to treat it as 642 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 3: an a morphous external figure. Those are just trolls is 643 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 3: an unproductive statement. Those are people who are repeating certain 644 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 3: things that they have been taught, and those are things 645 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 3: that are indoctrinated in a lot of education systems and 646 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 3: a lot of media systems and so like. We have 647 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,760 Speaker 3: to acknowledge that if these are real people, if they're bots, 648 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 3: are they are actors, whether technological or human, that are 649 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 3: acting on certain beliefs that are intrinsic in our culture. 650 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 3: And so don't say those are just trolls, but take 651 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 3: what they're saying from a certain viewpoint of that this 652 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 3: is coming from somewhere real. 653 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah. Use it as a way of pointing out 654 00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: the long held problematic issues within larger institution like the WNBA, 655 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: like ESPN, like mainstream media, and talk about the problem 656 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: instead of the symptom. The symptom is the number of 657 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: people who have been indoctrinated or raised to believe that 658 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: these things are truths, as opposed to result of the 659 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: way things have been covered, the framing that has been 660 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: used by media or by critics over the course of time, 661 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: the racism, sexism, homophobia, that's been built into how people 662 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: see the WNBA and therefore how these fans receive it 663 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: is more. Yeah, that's fascinating. Well, it's complicated and difficult, 664 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: and I will admit to not being above probably at 665 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: times participating while trying to figure out how during that 666 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: time to focus on the basketball and yet acknowledge this 667 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: larger flurry of insanity and my frustration with so many 668 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: people stepping into the space knowing nothing about it and 669 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: contributing in problematic and dangerous ways for some of these 670 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: players by their framing of the conversation that was going 671 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: on around race. So thank you for writing this article, 672 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,919 Speaker 1: thank you for diving into it in an academic way 673 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,879 Speaker 1: and sort of helping us better understand the forces at 674 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: play when we receive these things, some of it being 675 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: intentional from the media, and some of it very much 676 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: them absconding responsibility, but not because they want to carry 677 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: water for bad faith, but because they just don't understand 678 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 1: that they're complicit in it as part of this larger 679 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: thing that we we're exposed to all the time, and 680 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: sometimes not even understanding that we're being influenced by this 681 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,399 Speaker 1: big propaganda machine that is mainstream media. Any last thoughts. 682 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 1: I feel like we could talk about this forever. 683 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 3: We could probably talk about this forever. But thank you 684 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 3: so much for talking about this with me, and I 685 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 3: hope it's useful and I appreciate the time. 686 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on. Thanks again to Zoe for taking 687 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: the time and sitting down with us. And don't forget. 688 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: You can now watch full length Good Game interviews on 689 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: the Iheartwomen's Sports YouTube channel. We have to take another 690 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: break when we return How to Lose a Crowd with 691 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: two letters, Welcome back slices. We love that you're listening, 692 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: but we want you to get in the game every 693 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,399 Speaker 1: day too, So here's our good game play of the day. 694 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: It's an easy one. Check out Zoe's research. We'll link 695 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: to the article we discussed in the show notes. We 696 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: always love to hear from you, so hit us up 697 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: on email Good Game at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave 698 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: us a voicemail at eight seven two two oh four 699 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: fifty seventy and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review slices. 700 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,879 Speaker 1: It's so easy. Watch commencement speakers getting booed for talking 701 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: about AI. Rating ten out of ten deliciously uncomfortable moments. 702 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,399 Speaker 1: Review clips from college commencement speeches are starting to make 703 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: the rounds, but this year I've seen far fewer in 704 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,479 Speaker 1: the great advice or memorable anecdote category, and far more 705 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: in the mercilessly booed for extolling the virtues of AI 706 00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: to the generation of people most likely not to find 707 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: a job as the result of AI variety, and I 708 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: can't decide what's better. The speaker I saw who was 709 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: absolutely shocked and left totally stunned by the booze from 710 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: the graduates just didn't see it coming at all, or 711 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: the speaker whose face got progressively redder and redder as 712 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: he tried to power through his remarks, knowing full well 713 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: more and more fawning over AI was to come, meaning 714 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: more booze aimed in his direction were to come as well. 715 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,280 Speaker 1: If you're big on public embarrassment, check out the videos 716 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: we'll post to a couple in the show notes, and 717 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: after you're done watching, check out a recent thoughtful and 718 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,720 Speaker 1: illuminative New York Times essay from a current Stanford student 719 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: who's living through the growing pains of AI meeting academia. 720 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: It's a great read. Now it's your turn y'all, rate 721 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: and review Good Game Zoe, Good Game Texas, A and 722 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: M for taking home the college tennis title. Few media 723 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: outlets amplifying trolls than taking no responsibility when their ideas spread. 724 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports 725 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You 726 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 727 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, 728 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: our producers are Alex Azzi and Bianca Hillier. Our executive 729 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,280 Speaker 1: producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. 730 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: Our editors are Emily Rudder, Lucy Jones, Britney Martinez, and 731 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: Gianna Palmer. Production assistant from Avery Loftus and I'm Your 732 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: Host Sarah Spain